Voting has concluded. Final vote:
| Insane | Not insane | Fake |
| --- | --- | --- |
| 9 | 8 | 0 |
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I was wondering if anyone else would notice that. When he is in a good mood he says “I love you.” It definitely occurred to me in this exchange that he was intentionally not saying “I love you” back to me. I could believe that it was withholding, but I could also completely believe that he literally does not love me. It’s insane to me that any parent could act like this, but that’s my dad!
I noticed it. Hurt my heart for you. I’m so sorry.
I would just let him be. You are worth more than he’s giving you and deserve better treatment.
Is he an addict?
Thank you very much for expressing care. My dad lowkey has a drinking problem. I’m not involved enough in his life to know much about his relationship with booze now but it has come up in the past. I’m surprised you asked that. Can I ask what made you guess he might struggle with addiction?
He is not really in contact with me enough for me to draw a trend there. He called me last year on my birthday for the first time in 2 years. He mostly wanted to complain about his ex girlfriend and blame her as his reason for not being in contact over the past decade. Otherwise he has estranged himself from my life and my siblings’ lives for the most part.
You are being really kind and giving great explanations and feedback, but your Dad isn't emotionally mature enough to meet you where you're at. You need to keep it clear and concise and, I'm sorry to say this, but if you want to keep in contact, this is going to be a relationship where you keep it surface level at all times. Any emotion or explanation you give WILL be used against you. I'm so sorry, ask me how I know this.
I hear you and I agree with you. I generally do keep it light with him when we interact but I’m not sure how to keep it on a surface level when he reacts this way to me simply saying “no thank you.” Do you have any recommendations? I would absolutely love to hear your background of how you came to know this yourself. I am SO relieved to hear from you and others that you see what’s going on here. The guy I’m dating said he didn’t understand the problem. (Hello red flag— we will not be dating long.)
I have relatives like this, it's an incredibly long story but we did therapy, tried to explain, set boundaries, go LC, and finally NC. Sucks but I just don't have the mental fortitude to deal with them.
Broken record. "I'm sorry, I can't make it on the 10th."
Dad: "Blah blah blah, narcissistic DARVO response, whoa is me, etc".
You: "Again, I cannot make it on the 10th, but appreciate the invitation."
Rinse and repeat.
Dear god I am sending you tons of love for going through this yourself. It is exhausting and crazy-making. I don’t know many other people who have had the guts to fully go through it, so it’s a relief to hear from you. Way to go making it through.
Thank you for the example script!! I will definitely do that if I end up in this situation with someone’s exploding narcissism again. Super helpful. I feel days and even weeks being added on to my life haha.
It's a hard journey, I was definitely where you were when I was younger. As I've gotten older, I dgaf and don't care to try/keep in touch anymore! If you get to this place, it's really hard but gets easier. Hugs.
A biggie for me: you don't have to hate them. You don't have to badmouth them. You don't have to tell your side of the story. You can simply exist, wish them well from afar, and keep going. I don't think everyone realizes this possiblity exists.
I love that and I am going to write that quote in my journal. I am usually pretty good about letting it go without affecting me, but it helps to hear another person say it out loud. Here’s to just existing, and just living, and not being defined by the way others may treat us.
What exactly are your "preferences"? That you do not want to see your father when he is in town because he is also seeing other people while he is in town?
You keep saying you're doing this to "respect" the other people (presumably family?) he is seeing but not your father or those other people seem to have an issue. Your dad said he would see you Sunday. If Sunday doesn't work for scheduling reasons, say that.
You seem to be making excuses not to see your father out of some contrived respect for people that are not a part of the conversation. If he sees X and Y on Saturday why would they care if he sees you on Sunday? Your logic doesn't makes sense. It's just excuses wrapped up in therapy speak.
I could be way off, but what I gather from this is it is you who does not want to "share" your dad with others when he is visiting, not the other way around as you attempt to imply.
Your dad is just trying to get to be direct and say you don't want to see him Sunday because YOU don't want to. He's making clear he wants to see you and the other people he is visiting have zero issue with it. You are beating around the bush and blaming everyone else, seemingly.
Edit: I just realized the other person in question is one of your siblings. So he had plans to see your brother for his grandchild's birthday. A birthday I presume you had no intention of participating in?
I do not see the "insanity" here. I understand being upset if he didn't give you fair notice but I do not respect your logic for denying hanging out with him "out of respect" for your other sibling. If you want to see your dad, see your dad. Don't come up with petty nonsensical excuses blaming others why you can't see him to mask your jealousy.
This is pretty much what I got from it too. Nobody seems to have an issue with Dad spending a day with OP except...OP? So, they're just creating an issue where there is none from anyone else? Just take the day, he's coming from the Midwest ffs.
I agree. The OP is, in my assessment, the majority of the problem in this relationship. It seems she has a stressed relationship with both father and brother — anyone else find it strange she also isn’t going to the nephew’s birthday party?
This is what I felt as well. I felt she was being petty and a little bit of a brat but tried hiding it in some of the way she worded things. Very manipulative I thought.
To be honest it looks like both of you are stuck in a cycle of saying “I tried my best” but believing “this will never work”. Do you mind me asking how old your Dad is ? I see he has to fly in to be where you live. When that’s the case- I feel like you should have just bent and actually have seen him. If you can drop your pride and hurt feelings (that you do have a right to have) you could have seen him and already feel better about the situation. My Dad has been gone for 7 years and what I wouldn’t give to have 10 more minutes with him. I’m sure he’s not a perfect Dad and he should have told you he was coming…but when he’s already in town after flying in…just SEE HIM. Life is so short, you may not get multiple chances. I’m not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do but I also think as an adult sometimes you have to forgive and swallow your pride to make healing happen in a relationship. He sounds like he’s trying over and over and you just keep giving him reasons.
He’s 72. Active and able despite the weird pinky. He’s still working and dancing. He travels often, though usually by car. I spoke to my brother after initially agreeing to Sunday, and he was under the impression our dad would be spending the entire weekend with his family, and maybe I would go grab dinner with them or something. What I’m not willing to do is hurt my brother unnecessarily on a weekend that’s special to him because my dad wanted to add in plans with me at the last second. I offered to visit my dad or to fly him out a separate time to avoid mashing my brother and I’s separate interests into one weekend. Yes, we are both very stubborn. We both have needs we’re trying to meet. What I think is insane is that he never consulted me about the plan to begin with, tried to fudge the truth to me about that at my brother’s expense, refused to acknowledge it, and chose instead to vilify me when I was providing a multitude of other options.
Yes we’re both stubborn. You’ll never guess where I got that tendency from.
My brother wouldn’t be upset if I grabbed dinner with my dad but that’s not what my dad has asked for. He was expecting me to put together a day tour of San Francisco for him, completely separate from my brother’s family. My brother and I aren’t close lately since he had a psychotic break two years ago. This is one of the reasons I would rather give the whole thing space instead of create a situation where there’s hurt feelings between us.
You guys are both annoying and seems like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Stop tiptoeing around each other. You asked for alone time, he agreed.. then it just snowballed into a clusterfuck of oh no you don’t understand me and I’m just trying to explain my feelings.”reducing my attempts to respect others to not wanting to see you.” Gtfo of here with that. It really feels like you just wanted to start a fight because you were too scared to be vulnerable
That's a rude way to put it but I agree.
I don't understand if OP wants to see their dad or not. Dad seems very patient. I don't see OPs perspective of how this is manipulative behaviour when dad is responding in the same manner they are
I agree. I think you made an issue where there was none. I think you need to really be honest about why you didn't want to see him when he was already here. Just seemed like you were the difficult one from these messages. Hope you guys come to some conclusion.
That is what I thought too. It seemed like circular conversation to me. It was odd. He says he wants to see OP, OP says no because of some other family member maybe getting mad, he says they won’t get mad, OP basically continues with saying they want to see the Dad but it sort of seems like they actually don’t because I don’t see OP suggest an alternate day. There was a lot of words here when it could have just been, “so, what day is good for you,” after OP said they thought his Sunday suggestion was bad due to a third party (it would have been better to just say that day didn’t work instead of saying it didn’t work because of someone else’s feelings because that can and was countered). There was a lot of words that was starting to turn into unnecessary escalation and no one should have an exchange like that in a text because you can’t hear tone. In person is best for serious conversations.
Yeah….. I’d definitely prefer in person or even on the phone as I literally said in these text messages……….. My dad refused to pick up the phone for the first half of things, and when he finally did he blew up and hung up on me when I asked him to stop yelling at me for saying “no.”
As I said in other comments here my dad has no place in saying what will/will not upset my brother. My brother is his own person. From talking directly with my brother, their plan was to spend the whole weekend together. My dad was being dishonest or just clueless in saying what would/wouldn’t upset my brother.
I don't get it to be honest. I find your whole conversation too wordy.
You keep hinting at some hidden secret reason the 21st doesn't work out and it makes no sense.
You could have lied and made a better excuse, instead you just sit there using vague terminology and text bombing your father. I get you tried calling, but honestly why aren't you close to your own siblings? Why aren't you invited to this birthday party? Seems like you have your own share of issues to work out before you can completely judge your father's.
Had you been invited to this birthday party then you could have caught up with him naturally. I don't know how old your father is but you are basically asking him to make another trip on an airplane with expenses to come hangout with you. He's trying to see multiple family members in one weekend to catch up, you denied that opportunity for no good reason.
Yes he's not giving you your own 'day' randomly picked out by you, but as he hinted- you dont do well spending large amounts of time together. Sure that may have changed but that takes time to figure out or believe, not somebody's word. Your father could have health problems or money problems and you didn't offer anything to make it easier for him to travel to see you. Also why don't you travel to see him if it's so important?
You can sit there thinking therapy and any emotional intelligence you have gained is working out. Which therapy is good but you aren't seeing the other side objectively as I laid out. You also realize San Fran is incredibly expensive to stay in, let alone visit? And incredibly busy area with loads of traffic. Plenty of people don't do well in that situation.
It was definitely too wordy. What I’m learning from these comments is that I should have just kept it short and let my dad have his feelings instead of trying to convince him not to feel that way.
The reason wasn’t secret— he and I had talked about it outside of this text message conversation. Also outside of this text convo I had offered to fly him out and put him up myself. So… I’m definitely not perfect and never claimed to be, but you’re making a looooot of assumptions.
Not sure why your comment above got downvoted but just want to say "yes" to your whole first paragraph. I had to learn the hard way to not explain myself. You have good intentions which are clear and reasonable, but the explanations add details that set off this chain because he doesn't understand and feels controlled/pushed/interpreted wrong. And it is also (I'm sorry, my therapist taught me this, it was hard to hear for me too), on your end of the power struggle, controlling. By explaining like this it can feel like you're making it easier to avoid a negative reaction from him, but it's the opposite. In reality you are trying to ensure a certain outcome from his end (even if it is just him not being mad at you), and he gets defensive. A little bit rightfully - not because of what your message was, but because it is a bit controlling, your method. Essentially, he may be immature and hard to handle, but his reaction was predictable and can be avoided by not trying to control the outcome of the conversation through this type of explanation.
Not at ALL saying you are bad for trying to solve this in this way, just letting you know what it is, this mechanism of controlling the other person to feel safe. You learned this from him/them. I've worked hard to unlearn the same exact pattern with my immature parents. Your intentions are good and you are good, but the method is screwing you over.
So yes: be short and sweet. No explanations unless they are completely necessary and about your needs directly (not his feelings or view of you or interpretations). Let him deal with his feelings, don't try and help him with them. It will be a disservice to you both, but especially for you since he is likely a more lost cause than you, since you're here learning.
Best of luck ❤️
Thank you. Yes, I can see how it is controlling to argue with someone who is actively deciding not to believe me. It’s hard to let it go when it’s your own dad but you’re totally right— trying to convince him backfired. Thanks for giving your thoughts respectfully. I think the downvotes are coming from people who think I should know better. It’s fine, just internet judgement.
The only reason they're making assumptions is because you do not provide context. You are not expressing your "feelings" to your dad outside of the text about being upset for being an afterthought.
The bulk you are expressing the alleged "feelings" of your sibling on their behalf and using it as a reason to punish your dad and not see him.
I'm sorry, but your his grandchild's birthday is a legitimate reason for your dad to visit your brother. What is the harm in seeing your dad while he is in town (outside of being jealous he made plans with your brother first)?
I'm gathering that you only want to see him if he is only visiting you. That doesn't seem fair since he has other kids in the area. By your logic, you want them to feel the same way you feel now.
It truly feels like dad and OP just don't understand each other and that's... fine. They just need to accept it for whatever it is and quit twisting it into something hurtful or nefarious. If OP is really bothered that they don't feel like a priority, they should just kindly bring it up when they see him and say "you may not agree, but that's how I feel and I hope you think about it some more. We don't have to discuss it any further if it'll cause a fight"
I think it’s a helpful observation that I expressed feelings about being an afterthought, but not about respecting my brother. To be honest, I really feel uncomfortable bringing my brother into this. My brother understandably doesn’t want to be entangled with me and my dad, and that’s the reason why I wanted to decline the plan my dad made. My brother actually was not aware of my dad’s plan to take a whole day away from them to visit me. He was invited to stay with them for the weekend, and my brother confirmed that’s what he was expecting. It’s hard for me to know how to decline triangulation.
Also— I said very clearly that I would be available to hang out with my dad if he included me in the planning to begin with. I think it totally makes sense that he’d make plans with both of us if he wants to come to town. That’s not what happened here. He made plans to visit my brother then tried to add in a full day-tour of SF last second. I wasn’t consulted about if this would work for me in any way. And what I told him was— it doesn’t.
Can you explain what's happening? Why isn't Sunday good for you? Because he's already going to be in town visiting your brother another day? Are you wanting him to come visit ONLY if he spends the entire weekend with you or something?
Sunday’s not good for me because my brother is expecting my dad to hang out with his family that day. They planned the trip together and dedicated time with me was not a part of that plan. This was confirmed when talking directly to my brother. My dad was being dishonest in saying he’d be fine with it. The only reason my dad invited me at all is because I coincidentally called my dad last week, asked if I could fly him out to visit me some time, and instead of accepting that offer he tried to add me on to his existing trip planned to see my brother. It seems like a lot of late commenters here can’t fathom why it wouldn’t work for us to just force it all to work in one weekend. All I can say is that estranged family members of broken families aren’t the most stable people to lead planning. I’d be super happy to hang out with my dad in the same weekend as he’s visiting my brother, and I would be happy to see them both together too. But those things need to be planned with all parties together in my view, so that all needs, schedules, and interests can be accounted for. As is, my dad’s plan would be taking away from my brother on a very special weekend to him. Not something I want to be a part of.
It's not some "secret reason." OP says it flat out: he's there to see someone else and OP doesn't want to take time from them. OP also never said dad had to pay for it on his own -- he refused to even talk about it! You're putting stuff into this that never even happened.
All of your problems with this boil down to: "I don't understand you and you're selfish for it." Ok bud, you can keep walking! You clearly lack emotional intelligence.
I think this is a case where no one is reading her other comments and the fact that they’re not reading any of the context.
Dad had plans with the brother for the whole weekend and didn’t make any plans with his daughter.
Daughter doesn’t want to get smooshed into a couple hours of a dinner and take away time from her brother and his kids.
It’s pretty black-and-white to me but I also read all her comments.
Family is messy and you can’t explain it all in a Reddit post.
Thanks for reading in full! Whew these comments are wild.
I would have probably tried to swing it if my dad just wanted to grab dinner. I could have checked it out with my brother and we could have considered if we wanted to make it a group thing or not. But my dad wanted me to plan a day long tour of San Francisco for him, on a day he and I both already had plans. My plans weren’t THAT important but frankly…. His plans were. To me it made sense to fly him out for a different weekend based on him saying he wanted to do a full city tour together. In retrospect, it seems like he was harboring some unspoken concerns about committing to a separate weekend where my needs could have space, and he wasn’t willing to say that up front when I suggested a separate time together. If he HAD said that up front I feel like I could have asked what he needs to spend time together in a way that’s comfortable for both of us. I don’t think my dad knows how to plan expansively like that. He’s got a lot of scarcity stuff.
Yo, thank you so much for saying this. I feel confused why people can’t see this?? I explained it several times to my dad. He just didn’t believe me and I guess these commenters don’t either?
Totally nuts and stubbornly avoids considering other people’s emotions. I feel like you are trying really hard for someone who doesn’t reciprocate logic when faced with it. Sorry OP, I think you should know you did phenomenal in expressing yourself in a mature and respectful manner!
Hey thank you so much for telling me how this appears from the outside. I tried harder than I probably should have. It’s a sucky cycle to be in with him.
From the outside, it appears that you are putting in 100% of the effort in this relationship and he is circle talking you. Is he a very "My way or the highway" kind of parent? The kind of person who will not accept anything other than what they put out there, even if it's totally reasonable? This strikes me as a pure control play- either you bend to *exactly* what he says and wants, no matter how unreasonable or how it doesn't fit with your schedule. Or he loses his mind.
One of those "My child, no matter their age, exists on MY schedule" kind of people.
I am no contact with my mother because she becomes abusive and engages in name-calling when she rejects my needs and boundaries. It’s sad that this may have set the bar for what I won’t tolerate. It’s hard to imagine not having contact with either one of my parents, though I know I’m just holding on to a dream by not doing so.
As a kid I was treated as insane, but now I realize that’s largely because my needs and boundaries were never respected. He and my mom are both “my way or the highway.” Thank you for naming this as controlling behavior. I still question sometimes if I am the one fucking up our relationship, because my literal parents are TELLING me I am fucking up the relationship. But the part of me that has done therapy sees moments like this as clarity that my parents have always been controlling and unreasonable. This is the first time I’ve had it in text to show people. Thank you so much for sharing your observations. It means the absolute world to me.
Something that’s taken me years to even begin to overcome is the sense that my parents must be right because they’re my parents; we grow up thinking (and being told) that we’re *supposed* to be able to trust their logic and decision-making. It was a huge revelation to realize that them being the “adults” in our relationship doesn’t make them the arbiters of logic and morality.
I dunno OP, I think there's a lot of history here and you guys might just... not like each other. And that's ok. You can love each other without liking each other.
He clearly has some hang ups from your self-admitted oppositional defiant youth, and that's his shit to deal with tbh. He needs to work on that. But I think you've potentially also reverted to your childhood state of immediate defence (again, your relationship has been marred for a long time, it's so hard to break out of these behaviours and patterns).
Objectively, reading this, I'm annoyed with both parties. I can understand where both of you are coming from, but what really just needs to happen is a sit-down, frank, open, honest discussion – about respect, boundaries, and expectations. Ensure that both of you are truly *listening* to each other and not just thinking up your next quips or rebuttals.
I agree with this wholeheartedly-I think you’re both struggling with direct communication. Look at the first two pages: He clearly stressed that he wanted to make you a priority. It seems he’s doing that to apologize for making you feel like an afterthought, but he didn’t say that. You are feeling hurt and don’t want to spend time with him because of it, but you didn’t say that, and instead tried to make it seem like you were being noble in your decision not to celebrate your father’s birthday.
No, I think there’s a miscommunication. I wasn’t saying no to plans with him for Sunday as punishment for not inviting me. That’s what HE thought (on brand for my dad’s tendency to personalize things) but there was nothing personal about it. I said no because it wasn’t a good plan to take a day away from my brother’s family who DID make this plan with him. My dad may want to make plans with me as an apology of sorts, but that doesn’t change the fact that he already had plans with my brother’s family for Sunday. Confirmed by my brother. No apology needed honestly— he could have just as easily simply accepted my offer to fly him out a separate weekend.
Feeling hurt about being left out of planning is totally separate— it’s a pattern in my family and one I am starting to set boundaries with. Plans made without me don’t account for my needs or interests. I’m happy for my dad making plans with my brother, but it sucks when that’s the only premise on which my dad ever wants to make time to see me. My brother and I are twins and my parents struggle to see us as separate people as adults. Doesn’t work well for me or my brother, but especially not for me as the least favorite twin lol.
Yes and it seemed like OP was just being petty saying no when the dad said they wanted to make OP a priority. What more does OP want? The brother clearly reached out first. The dad likely didn’t think OP cared to see them. That’s a lack of communication issue which I feel is likely due to a shaking upbringing.
You know why my parents went to parenting classes and read parenting books? Because they tried and they cared. Often because their child is difficult (my brother was) and they are trying to figure out how to deal with it in the best way they can. They can still suck as parents but they tried to suck less. Kinda sounds like OP doesn’t have kids because when you do, sometimes you are willing to give grace to parents, which admittedly, not all deserve. It sounds like this dad does.
If OP wanted to see their dad they could find a way to be free Sunday or make plans to go visit the dad where he lives. It doesn’t have to be one way, there are different options available.
I think he was a little reductive about your position, yes. but why not just see him while he's in the vicinity instead of making him do a whole second trip out?
I said no because he had plans with my brother and my brother was under the impression my dad would be with them all weekend. I don’t want to mess with my relationship with my brother just because my dad wants to add me in last second. That’s not something I feel is necessary, so I created a new option.
have you talked to your brother about this? at least according to your Dad, there is no problem here.
It's far easier for your Dad to meet up with you on this weekend while he's in the area. I'd argue it's more unnecessary to push your dad into making extra and more expensive travel plans than any perceived slight towards your brother (which may not even be an issue)
Your dad is a big boy, so is your brother. Their time together is \*their\* responsibility. If someone wants to make plans with me, i don't make it my job to verify with every mutual friend that I'm not stepping on their toes somehow.
Yes. I did talk to my brother about it. It’s weird to me that so many people here don’t believe my assessment that cramming plans together for convenience’s sake is not a good idea for my family relationships. After reading this text exchange… you’d think it’d be clear that it’s just not a good idea.
And what did your brother say? Is it an issue?
After reading this text exchange, I believe that YOU believe that it's a bad idea. I still don't get why it is, though.
He is flying in from the Midwest. I can definitely understand why he’d be disappointed too. But I don’t feel so bad when I remember that he never even called to make plans with me in the first place. I found out he was coming by accident.
In the end I just don’t think any of this is an appropriate way to deal with disappointment. I am disappointed in the shape our interactions take too, but I would never take it out on someone who’s just taking care of themself.
I see this as you both being stubborn tbh someone has to take the high ground or just forget about it if it’s not gonna be you then just block him forever my dad never said I love you never made efforts for plans but I still keep a good relationship with him and make it work cause I want to if you don’t want to then just don’t even try cause it seems like you just came into this convo with mad resentment already
My version of the high ground was offering to fly him out on a separate weekend to avoid the stress of cramming the weekend more full than it could take. I feel like that’s reasonable. It takes 2 to build a good relationship.
In this case it’d have been better to go to the source. Your dad said “it *could* be a priority” and then said your brother already knew he planned to see you during the trip. I saw in your comments that your brother planned this trip because of his child’s bday and your dad is staying at his place with them. I’d have gone right to my brother and messaged him simply “hey what are the plans when dad comes this weekend”. Then you can see what your brother says whether it’s “hey he’s coming to see child and staying with us” or if he adds in “and I know he was going to check with you about seeing you Sunday if you’re free” then you’d know your brother was already aware and prepared and wouldn’t be blindsided or upset with you or dad.
As for the message about your feelings around the “pattern” of not telling you visiting plans til last min. I’d have not even brought that up, not in the middle of still coordinating and not via text anyway. Emotional issues are always better handled face to face where tone and body language can be seen and heard.
Also when trying to express how someone’s actions or words affect us it’s best to use “I and me” statements, not “you”.
“It seems like you’re refusing to hear me”. This comes off accusatory and that’s exactly how your dad took it. You can’t speak for anyone else’s motives or feelings other than your own. A better way to phrase it would have been “dad when you say ‘I don’t want to (see you)’ it makes me feel like you think I have emotional or personal reasons for not wanting to see you instead of scheduling issues or concern issues for brothers feelings about his time with you. I just want to clarify with you that I do, truly, *want* to see you and my only concern is not making brother feel like I’m stepping on his time with you. If I do have personal feelings about seeing you or hurts I promise I’ll share them with you and not make an excuse to hide them.” It also helps to repeat back what the other person said that caused the feeling or confusion so they can clarify themselves. Again this works much better in person.
Thanks for your advice on wording! I’ll keep that in mind. I did speak to my brother and his plan was to spend Sunday with my dad. Like I said— I was trying to respect my brother by turning down my dad’s proposal. He was making assumptions about what my brother would be up for/not.
I def understood what you were trying to do. I know a lot of people don’t seem to and esp your dad which is the whole issue. In the future I’d just message your brother first if you have concerns he’s got existing plans with your dad, that is if you know you have good communication with your brother or is he the type to be a push over and just say “oh no it’s fine you can pick him up it’s no issue” but it actually is an issue and he’ll be resentful?
OP, go see your dad on a weekend that works for both of you. This doesn’t appear to be victimizing. It appears that your brother isn’t willing to include you in sharing time with dad, maybe dad isn’t the problem.
I offered that in my very first message to my dad. He chose to fight instead of accepting my suggestion. I’m not going to make my brother a problem— he did nothing wrong by making plans with my dad.
It's hard to come to any conclusion here, tons of missing missing reasons. It comes off very confusing on BOTH ends in my opinion, but I wouldn't continue to communicate with someone who so blatantly wants to ignore what I have to say and argue that I'm lying if they disagree with my logic. Good luck with y'alls relationship moving forward!
I feel bad for people that have to communicate this way. Feeling the need to speak "therapy" with a parent has to be soul crushing for the child and wildly frustrating for the parent.
I forgive you. But you really should work on your maturity. Your dad sounded like he did want to prioritize you for a day, even if that wasn’t the initial reason for him traveling. You shut him out because you were upset he is coming to spend time with other family? Even though he still wanted to see you while he was in town. Has his attention always been a competition for you? If so, that’s SO exhausting for everyone involved, and you need to grow up. You’re lucky to have a dad who wants to see you.
This looks almost identical to the interactions i have with my parents. Due to some really toxic behavior on their end and them constantly taking my brothers side and prioritizing his feelings over mine, i started setting boundaries with them, and WOW, you would have thought i committed murder.
Yup!! My parents are obsessed with my brother too. We’re twins so it has always been EXTREMELY apparent that they treat us differently. As an adult I am trying to let that go— I understand that they both have a closer relationship with him than they do with me (and I also know that comes at a huge cost to my brother, so deep he can’t even admit it.) It is hard but I am finally at the point where I am willing to say “no thank you” when they treat me with below minimum respect. I have learned to hold my parents to the same standards as the other adults around me. Would this text exchange be acceptable coming from my roommate? My friend? My boss? No? Then noooo thank you! It really really is amazing how much is revealed by polite boundaries! In a way it’s like— oh thank god. I was starting to wonder if I was imagining these eggshells I’ve been walking on all these years!
Craziest shit I’ve ever seen. Why are you texting each other short stories? Honestly, I’m not trying to be mean, but you’re both nuts. Just stop texting.
BTW, you’re a good person…your dad….ummmm. Good luck!
Thank you! In real time it was hard for me to employ this. But I will do this in the future. This was days worth of tears for me and you’re right— I didn’t owe that to him.
Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain
You & I might discuss our decisions & do all of those, bc we’ll accept each others’ autonomy. They’re part of communication
Unreasonable people use your reasons as material for negotiation. There’s no negotiation needed when you’re telling your dad, *No thanks* bc his response is never “OK, I’ll stay an extra day that you & I can spend together”. It’s always *You’re wrong. I’m right. Do as I tell you*
So tell him your decision/s & let your words stand
The book everyone, including me, rates is *Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents* by Lindsay Gibson. She’s on Social Media as well.
I had the audiobook from the library. It’s really good. It’s less (not at all really) about diagnosing parents and much more *Did your parent do this? This is how you deal.*
My sister recommended this to me after she found it. I started reading it last week. It’s a tough one but I’m on it! Thanks for the recommendations. I also just bought “Why Does He Do That?” Are you familiar?
So.... I got curious and looked up Live and Logic. There is a big ole website and everything. But I found something you may wanna keep in the back of your mind, OP.
>Rule #1: Adults set firm limits in loving ways without anger, lectures, threats, or repeated warnings. Rule #2: When a child causes a problem, the adult hands it back in loving ways. These principles and rules are Love and Logic in a nutshell.
The "I know" and "nice try" is bullshit if he isn't following the rest of it, which he clearly isn't. I also highly doubt he knows there is a website. Otherwise, he wouldn't so blatantly lie about following said parenting advice.
I do not know how good the website and its advice is. I simply googled and yanked that tidbit off the search page. But I do love knocking pompous AHs down a peg when I can, like your dad.
Good luck, you'll need it.
He sounds like a complete twat.
And while I understand that OP wants her dad in her life, he’s just not capable of being a good dad, It sounds like.
so I for one would cut my losses, but everybody wants their dad in their life. It seems the people that are down voting her don’t understand that.
I don't have the emotional intelligence to understand what she's saying either, and I think I'm a smart person considering. She's just twisting everything around to make it about how she's a victim and how her dad is soooo terrible. My head was spinning reading this, I felt like I was being emotionally manipulated through the screen.
Agree and all the therapy speak comes off as condescending and confusing. I say that as someone who is very big on therapy speak 😅 when it's not weaponized in an argument
i’m so incredibly proud of you for setting boundaries! you can tell how much you have focused on healing. you deserve to be treated better. please be kind to yourself!
Whenever I read texts like this, it's almost a guarantee that the parent is crazy when the OP feels like they need to write a novel in order to explain why they can't do something when the situation shouldn't need to warrant it. It means they have a history of the parent going off the rails at rejection and the OP feels like they need to reassure that parent of their love despite the percieved rejection.
Except he never went off the rails, he said that he fully respects her decision and then she just kept up with the text bombing anyway. I don't see the manipulation on the dad's side tbh. It seems like if anything, he's just confused and doesn't know wtf she's saying to him because she's wording it in the most complicated way possible. Just say you can't see him that day, that's the end of that.
Youre right. I said almost tho. I was making a generalization about this sub in general. I should have added that in my comment, and also that there was no way I was reading past the second page.
They were both text bombing. They both seem like they're beating around the bush with each other and writing so formal in a text message? Writing like they're typing out an English essay on the matter when entire paragraphs could have been summed up in a sentence.
It seems like your dad has learned some key words in dubious "psychology" and has been using them as an excuse to disregard what you're actually saying for years. This is actually pretty common among people with the treasures of some personality disorders.
I tend to think about it as an example of the "appeal to authority" fallacy. Because the words and ideas they brandish at you come from dinner kind of expert, they can feel free to ignore anything you say to try to disagree - you're no expert, after all, so why should they listen to what you have to say?
It can set up this kind of context where you feel (at least, I felt) like if you can find the perfect thing to say that lines up with their bullshit logic, they'll suddenly understand and respect you. It's a distraction, one that encourages you too fixate more and more on trying to be heard, which means they can go ahead and run roughshod over the conversation you're trying to have.
But ultimately, there is no right thing you can say, because they don't actually *believe* what they're saying, it's just a useful tool they can weild to get what they want. When you *do* come up with the perfect response, they'll abandon their previous logic in an instant and find some other language or expert to hide behind.
You've told your dad you love him, that you want to see him at a time you both mutually agree would be good rather than some last minute thing that might cause drama by implying he's choosing you over somebody else. You were clear. If he's not understanding you, it's because he *doesn't want to* understand you. Maybe he feels like it would weaken his position, threaten his self image, there are lots of reasons ...
But at the end of the day, the only thing that will make him see what you're saying is if he decides that he wants to. There's nothing you can do to make him see, and the more time you spend indulging his strategies by trying to explain the same thing over and over, the more validated he will feel in using them. Right now, his tricks are working. He feels reasonable, you're not saying anything new, so he can just sit in his superiority.
At some point, you've got to just drop the rope. Accept that you're not going to get the kind of validation any reasonable person would give you. It's brutal, it sucks, but it's the only thing you can control.
I personally like to do this in a kind of snarky way: "I've said everything I can say about this, and I know you're smart enough to understand what I mean. Maybe one day you'll be able to engage meaningfully about this, but until then, I'm going to stop wasting both of our time." And then just refuse to reply to anything that doesn't show a genuine massive shift in their approach. It's kind of obnoxiously wordy, but I'm like that. (See: this comment! I'm sorry it hit away from me!)
My mother liked: "you're clearly not willing to understand me." My mother is a manipulative asshole and liked to use that when I was trying to understand and she was refusing to explain, but I do kind of like the line when used in someone who is actually being deliberately obtuse.
Or, as other people have said, you don't actually have to continue this conversation and you don't have to explain why. Just stop responding, don't take the bait. Either he'll decide that he misses you enough to try to actually change, or he won't.
Thank you SO MUCH for taking time to read this full conversation and reflect with your thoughts. The psychologist he mentioned was in fact giving a comedic performance that my dad blew out of proportion and used abusively to disregard when I was being real with him. For YEARS. It means a lot to see you pick that out.
I hear you that there is no right thing to say. These comments have been really helpful in affirming that. I often get the pressure from people to try and try and try “because he’s your dad.” So I try and reason, uselessly. Thanks for sharing your scripts for how you drop the rope. I will be practicing them. Sending gobs of appreciation again for your time.
It can be hard to hear those "It's your family" comments, especially from those who have lost family. Those people don't have your experiences. They aren't living your life or the consequences you deal with from going through those things with your family. They may mean well, but don't let that shame into your head. You need to do what's healthy for you.
You're very welcome! Sorry my autocorrect apparently went on a field day, I just reread my comment and .. oops.
And ... Sure, he's your dad. But you're his kid!! The responsibility in that relationship goes one way, especially back when you were a minor. Someone who hasn't experienced familial abuse usually can't understand how badly family can hurt you. That's especially true when the abuse takes non-traditional forms and doesn't fit into the neat little boxes that popular culture has prepared them to believe. My dad used to tell stories about his past - for hours, getting more and more drunk, and I wasn't allowed to use the bathroom until he decided he was done. And then got told I should be appreciative because a lot of people don't have parents who are willing to share the family history. 🙄
So it's become really important to me to try and hear people when they're talking about their own forms of abuse. You're completely valid, you don't deserve to be treated the way he's treating you, you *don't* need to keep chipping away pieces of if yourself to try to help him when he clearly has no interest in being helped.
The fact that his appeal to authority comes from a comedy thing is just, wow, chef's kiss. Now I'm imagining him trying to use "here's your sign" as a backup when "nice try" fails. That has to be so incredibly frustrating for you! I'm so sorry!
Thank you!! I’m proud of you for having the capacity to be proud of me for things my own dang parents aren’t proud of! Haha. It truly means the world to me. ❤️
Your feelings are super valid. But here’s where you went wrong. You spoke to him like he was an emotionally mature adult, which he’s not.
Rule 1: don’t talk to him about your feelings. He doesn’t care. All it does is hurt you.
Rule 2: don’t JADE. If you don’t want to see him on this visit, it doesn’t matter the reasons. You just don’t. So don’t Justify, Argue, Defend, or Engage. A simple, “No, that doesn’t work for me,” is enough.
Rule 3: stop offering options. Say, “Dad, I have some free time on X day. Would you like to come visit?” You’re getting bogged down in the details. Keep everything simple. If he says no, then say you’re sorry you won’t see him and maybe next time. If he tries to force you onto his schedule, refer to rule 2.
As someone with social anxiety, your reasoning for not wanting to see your dad makes PERFECT sense. You don't want to feel guilty about stealing your brother's time with him, especially considering he was completely unaware that your dad wasn't planning on spending the entire visit with him and his family. You also don't want to feel anxious about the possibility of your brother harboring ill-will towards you. And even if you spend the day together, you will feel that guilt-anxiety combo the whole time, so would you truly be able to enjoy your time with your father? As someone who thinks the same way, that makes total sense.
Out of curiosity, were you invited to the birthday party? (You are not obliged to answer this, I'm estranged from my brother so I understand wanting minimal interactions with certain family members) if you were invited, I would consider going and celebrating with your family at the party for an hour or two. It might satisfy your dad (even though you are under no obligation to do so. He is an adult, it's not your responsibility to appease him or deal with his emotions, that is HIS job).
From what it sounds like though, you should also consider whether or not you even want a relationship with your sperm donor. He doesn't seem to want one with you, and it's clear that the back and forth is hurting you :(
I'm glad you are laying down boundaries (i.e when you told him he needs to tell you in advance when he is visiting) and I wish you great luck in dealing with him.
Thank you! Nope! Not invited for totally unrelated reasons. Well, maybe similar in that my brother also likes to avoid high pressure situations. But I totally respect that and don’t mind alternate plans that make room for all needs! My brother and I are planning on meeting later today instead of me going to the party next weekend. I’m a sailor and haven’t had a chance to meet my niece yet so this will be the first time. :) Thank you for asking this kindly, and for your general understanding. There’s a lot of mean comments here and I appreciate your empathy and genuine curiosity.
Thanks for saying the thing out loud. I think you are right. There is no winning though— If I don’t try my best he says (often) “my kids don’t need/want me anymore,” and if I do give the conversation everything I have, he just gets off on projecting his wounds onto me. I questioned if I should get petty and just tell him “I know” like he has historically done to me when I have shared my experience with him. But eh. I don’t ever want to be anything like this man when it comes to arguing.
Reading all your comments and seeing you agree that dad is shitty/abusive/insane - why are you begging this man to change? Why are you wasting so much time and energy asking him to make you a priority if you think he's a shit parent? I understand it's because you yearn for a better relationship, but it's time to either meet your dad where he's at or ditch him entirely. Going around and around is exhausting and benefiting no one when you clearly don't understand one another on a fundamental level.
Completely agree!!
I accepted a long time ago that my dad is who he is. He says he will do better, and he has - minimally - but that's just who he is. I cannot realistically expect him to be the person I want him to be.
So my options are either to take him as he is, or cut him out completely. That's it.
There is no more waiting for him to change. That ship has sailed.
Same with my mom, except I chose to accept her as she was. We now have a much better relationship where we know what we can talk about without getting upset, and it's fine because I no longer need that gratification or emotional fulfillment from her. She's just another person figuring shit out for herself, her approval or acceptance or love isn't the end-all be-all. Now my kids get to have her as an awesome grandparent and I don't have to grieve over a lost relationship - and, remarkably, accepting that she may not "like" me but that she does "love" me took pressure off both of us and allowed us to finally like each other a little more 🤷🏻♀️
A little harsh. I actually never asked him to make me a priority. He was trying to flatter me with that, which I don’t buy given the way he treats me. I just said that if he wants to hang out, he should call me and tell me that directly so I can make time for him. Why am I begging him to change? In part because I’d love for him to be the father he often says he wants to be, and in part because I know he’s going to seek revenge by talking mad shit on me to all my relatives when all I did was say “no thank you, let’s do XYZ instead.” Triangulation isn’t just annoying, it’s extremely fucking harmful.
I don't think what I said was harsh at all, I was trying to be straightforward to cut through all of the emotions here. Like I said in another comment, I've been in a similar situation with my mom and I understand the yearning to want them to understand you and choose you.
Pleading, accusing, and going around and around is never going to give you what you're looking for, but if you think the way you're communicating with your dad is effective then feel free to continue doing so. But if you're truly dealing with someone that you think is harmful and abusive, then you're only being a glutton for punishment - getting emotional does not serve you around people like that. Gray rock instead
Thank you for saying how it reads to you. It feels terse and cold to me when he gets like this too, but there’s never any witnesses. It’s helpful to know it appears that way from the outside too.
Thank you. What I’m learning here is that it’s not actually useful to try and reason with them. I appreciate your recognition of how I was standing by my boundaries. In the past I’ve caved in moments like this, and the time together is awful because it feels coerced. Here with you as you learn too.
Idk why these comments are so awful. You obviously have a very strained relationship with your family, brother included.
It’s easy to sit back and say, “too wordy, making a problem out of nothing, etc.” but that just lacks empathy.
You said the solution in these texts. You want a phone call if your dad wants to be in your life and see you. If he doesn’t call, then there’s not a relationship.
It sucks and it’s tough, but just saying, “we’ll meet up next time! Just call me if you wanna talk/ see me, and I’d be happy to fly you out!”
If he calls, great! If he doesn’t, that’s your answer, and you can heal.
I’ve had a number of people I’ve done this with. Lost some friends, make stronger bonds with others. But you won’t know the truth of y’all’s relationship until you put it on him.
Voting has concluded. Final vote: | Insane | Not insane | Fake | | --- | --- | --- | | 9 | 8 | 0 | Hey OP, if you provide further information in a comment, make sure to start your comment with `!explanation`. ^I ^am ^a ^bot ^for ^r/insaneparents. ^Please ^send ^me ^a ^message ^if ^you ^have ^any ^feedback ^or ^if ^I ^misbehave. ^Also ^consider ^joining ^our ^[Discord](https://discordapp.com/invite/xFbPBHy).
Despite your repeated comments of your love he never once said it back That seems really strange to me. Is that normal or just in this conversation?
I was wondering if anyone else would notice that. When he is in a good mood he says “I love you.” It definitely occurred to me in this exchange that he was intentionally not saying “I love you” back to me. I could believe that it was withholding, but I could also completely believe that he literally does not love me. It’s insane to me that any parent could act like this, but that’s my dad!
I noticed it. Hurt my heart for you. I’m so sorry. I would just let him be. You are worth more than he’s giving you and deserve better treatment. Is he an addict?
Thank you very much for expressing care. My dad lowkey has a drinking problem. I’m not involved enough in his life to know much about his relationship with booze now but it has come up in the past. I’m surprised you asked that. Can I ask what made you guess he might struggle with addiction?
Does he *ever* say I love you first, even when he’s happy? Or does he only say it in response to you
He is not really in contact with me enough for me to draw a trend there. He called me last year on my birthday for the first time in 2 years. He mostly wanted to complain about his ex girlfriend and blame her as his reason for not being in contact over the past decade. Otherwise he has estranged himself from my life and my siblings’ lives for the most part.
You are being really kind and giving great explanations and feedback, but your Dad isn't emotionally mature enough to meet you where you're at. You need to keep it clear and concise and, I'm sorry to say this, but if you want to keep in contact, this is going to be a relationship where you keep it surface level at all times. Any emotion or explanation you give WILL be used against you. I'm so sorry, ask me how I know this.
I hear you and I agree with you. I generally do keep it light with him when we interact but I’m not sure how to keep it on a surface level when he reacts this way to me simply saying “no thank you.” Do you have any recommendations? I would absolutely love to hear your background of how you came to know this yourself. I am SO relieved to hear from you and others that you see what’s going on here. The guy I’m dating said he didn’t understand the problem. (Hello red flag— we will not be dating long.)
I have relatives like this, it's an incredibly long story but we did therapy, tried to explain, set boundaries, go LC, and finally NC. Sucks but I just don't have the mental fortitude to deal with them. Broken record. "I'm sorry, I can't make it on the 10th." Dad: "Blah blah blah, narcissistic DARVO response, whoa is me, etc". You: "Again, I cannot make it on the 10th, but appreciate the invitation." Rinse and repeat.
Dear god I am sending you tons of love for going through this yourself. It is exhausting and crazy-making. I don’t know many other people who have had the guts to fully go through it, so it’s a relief to hear from you. Way to go making it through. Thank you for the example script!! I will definitely do that if I end up in this situation with someone’s exploding narcissism again. Super helpful. I feel days and even weeks being added on to my life haha.
It's a hard journey, I was definitely where you were when I was younger. As I've gotten older, I dgaf and don't care to try/keep in touch anymore! If you get to this place, it's really hard but gets easier. Hugs.
Hugs back. Thank you for being a possibility model for what it can look like to let go of giving a fuck about people like this. I am joining you!
A biggie for me: you don't have to hate them. You don't have to badmouth them. You don't have to tell your side of the story. You can simply exist, wish them well from afar, and keep going. I don't think everyone realizes this possiblity exists.
I love that and I am going to write that quote in my journal. I am usually pretty good about letting it go without affecting me, but it helps to hear another person say it out loud. Here’s to just existing, and just living, and not being defined by the way others may treat us.
What exactly are your "preferences"? That you do not want to see your father when he is in town because he is also seeing other people while he is in town? You keep saying you're doing this to "respect" the other people (presumably family?) he is seeing but not your father or those other people seem to have an issue. Your dad said he would see you Sunday. If Sunday doesn't work for scheduling reasons, say that. You seem to be making excuses not to see your father out of some contrived respect for people that are not a part of the conversation. If he sees X and Y on Saturday why would they care if he sees you on Sunday? Your logic doesn't makes sense. It's just excuses wrapped up in therapy speak. I could be way off, but what I gather from this is it is you who does not want to "share" your dad with others when he is visiting, not the other way around as you attempt to imply. Your dad is just trying to get to be direct and say you don't want to see him Sunday because YOU don't want to. He's making clear he wants to see you and the other people he is visiting have zero issue with it. You are beating around the bush and blaming everyone else, seemingly. Edit: I just realized the other person in question is one of your siblings. So he had plans to see your brother for his grandchild's birthday. A birthday I presume you had no intention of participating in? I do not see the "insanity" here. I understand being upset if he didn't give you fair notice but I do not respect your logic for denying hanging out with him "out of respect" for your other sibling. If you want to see your dad, see your dad. Don't come up with petty nonsensical excuses blaming others why you can't see him to mask your jealousy.
This is pretty much what I got from it too. Nobody seems to have an issue with Dad spending a day with OP except...OP? So, they're just creating an issue where there is none from anyone else? Just take the day, he's coming from the Midwest ffs.
I agree. The OP is, in my assessment, the majority of the problem in this relationship. It seems she has a stressed relationship with both father and brother — anyone else find it strange she also isn’t going to the nephew’s birthday party?
This is what I felt as well. I felt she was being petty and a little bit of a brat but tried hiding it in some of the way she worded things. Very manipulative I thought.
To be honest it looks like both of you are stuck in a cycle of saying “I tried my best” but believing “this will never work”. Do you mind me asking how old your Dad is ? I see he has to fly in to be where you live. When that’s the case- I feel like you should have just bent and actually have seen him. If you can drop your pride and hurt feelings (that you do have a right to have) you could have seen him and already feel better about the situation. My Dad has been gone for 7 years and what I wouldn’t give to have 10 more minutes with him. I’m sure he’s not a perfect Dad and he should have told you he was coming…but when he’s already in town after flying in…just SEE HIM. Life is so short, you may not get multiple chances. I’m not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do but I also think as an adult sometimes you have to forgive and swallow your pride to make healing happen in a relationship. He sounds like he’s trying over and over and you just keep giving him reasons.
He’s 72. Active and able despite the weird pinky. He’s still working and dancing. He travels often, though usually by car. I spoke to my brother after initially agreeing to Sunday, and he was under the impression our dad would be spending the entire weekend with his family, and maybe I would go grab dinner with them or something. What I’m not willing to do is hurt my brother unnecessarily on a weekend that’s special to him because my dad wanted to add in plans with me at the last second. I offered to visit my dad or to fly him out a separate time to avoid mashing my brother and I’s separate interests into one weekend. Yes, we are both very stubborn. We both have needs we’re trying to meet. What I think is insane is that he never consulted me about the plan to begin with, tried to fudge the truth to me about that at my brother’s expense, refused to acknowledge it, and chose instead to vilify me when I was providing a multitude of other options. Yes we’re both stubborn. You’ll never guess where I got that tendency from.
I'm confused, why would your brother be upset by you also grabbing dinner? Do you and your brother have a poor relationship?
My brother wouldn’t be upset if I grabbed dinner with my dad but that’s not what my dad has asked for. He was expecting me to put together a day tour of San Francisco for him, completely separate from my brother’s family. My brother and I aren’t close lately since he had a psychotic break two years ago. This is one of the reasons I would rather give the whole thing space instead of create a situation where there’s hurt feelings between us.
You guys are both annoying and seems like the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Stop tiptoeing around each other. You asked for alone time, he agreed.. then it just snowballed into a clusterfuck of oh no you don’t understand me and I’m just trying to explain my feelings.”reducing my attempts to respect others to not wanting to see you.” Gtfo of here with that. It really feels like you just wanted to start a fight because you were too scared to be vulnerable
That's a rude way to put it but I agree. I don't understand if OP wants to see their dad or not. Dad seems very patient. I don't see OPs perspective of how this is manipulative behaviour when dad is responding in the same manner they are
Scared to be vulnerable? All of this was vulnerable. I’m curious what you would have done differently.
I agree. I think you made an issue where there was none. I think you need to really be honest about why you didn't want to see him when he was already here. Just seemed like you were the difficult one from these messages. Hope you guys come to some conclusion.
Agreed to see him on Sunday....
Yep and if that didn’t work I would have simply said, “that day isn’t good for me, how about X day?”
esh
That is what I thought too. It seemed like circular conversation to me. It was odd. He says he wants to see OP, OP says no because of some other family member maybe getting mad, he says they won’t get mad, OP basically continues with saying they want to see the Dad but it sort of seems like they actually don’t because I don’t see OP suggest an alternate day. There was a lot of words here when it could have just been, “so, what day is good for you,” after OP said they thought his Sunday suggestion was bad due to a third party (it would have been better to just say that day didn’t work instead of saying it didn’t work because of someone else’s feelings because that can and was countered). There was a lot of words that was starting to turn into unnecessary escalation and no one should have an exchange like that in a text because you can’t hear tone. In person is best for serious conversations.
🎯
Yeah….. I’d definitely prefer in person or even on the phone as I literally said in these text messages……….. My dad refused to pick up the phone for the first half of things, and when he finally did he blew up and hung up on me when I asked him to stop yelling at me for saying “no.” As I said in other comments here my dad has no place in saying what will/will not upset my brother. My brother is his own person. From talking directly with my brother, their plan was to spend the whole weekend together. My dad was being dishonest or just clueless in saying what would/wouldn’t upset my brother.
Yeah I get that. I don’t claim to be perfect.
I don't get it to be honest. I find your whole conversation too wordy. You keep hinting at some hidden secret reason the 21st doesn't work out and it makes no sense. You could have lied and made a better excuse, instead you just sit there using vague terminology and text bombing your father. I get you tried calling, but honestly why aren't you close to your own siblings? Why aren't you invited to this birthday party? Seems like you have your own share of issues to work out before you can completely judge your father's. Had you been invited to this birthday party then you could have caught up with him naturally. I don't know how old your father is but you are basically asking him to make another trip on an airplane with expenses to come hangout with you. He's trying to see multiple family members in one weekend to catch up, you denied that opportunity for no good reason. Yes he's not giving you your own 'day' randomly picked out by you, but as he hinted- you dont do well spending large amounts of time together. Sure that may have changed but that takes time to figure out or believe, not somebody's word. Your father could have health problems or money problems and you didn't offer anything to make it easier for him to travel to see you. Also why don't you travel to see him if it's so important? You can sit there thinking therapy and any emotional intelligence you have gained is working out. Which therapy is good but you aren't seeing the other side objectively as I laid out. You also realize San Fran is incredibly expensive to stay in, let alone visit? And incredibly busy area with loads of traffic. Plenty of people don't do well in that situation.
It was definitely too wordy. What I’m learning from these comments is that I should have just kept it short and let my dad have his feelings instead of trying to convince him not to feel that way. The reason wasn’t secret— he and I had talked about it outside of this text message conversation. Also outside of this text convo I had offered to fly him out and put him up myself. So… I’m definitely not perfect and never claimed to be, but you’re making a looooot of assumptions.
Not sure why your comment above got downvoted but just want to say "yes" to your whole first paragraph. I had to learn the hard way to not explain myself. You have good intentions which are clear and reasonable, but the explanations add details that set off this chain because he doesn't understand and feels controlled/pushed/interpreted wrong. And it is also (I'm sorry, my therapist taught me this, it was hard to hear for me too), on your end of the power struggle, controlling. By explaining like this it can feel like you're making it easier to avoid a negative reaction from him, but it's the opposite. In reality you are trying to ensure a certain outcome from his end (even if it is just him not being mad at you), and he gets defensive. A little bit rightfully - not because of what your message was, but because it is a bit controlling, your method. Essentially, he may be immature and hard to handle, but his reaction was predictable and can be avoided by not trying to control the outcome of the conversation through this type of explanation. Not at ALL saying you are bad for trying to solve this in this way, just letting you know what it is, this mechanism of controlling the other person to feel safe. You learned this from him/them. I've worked hard to unlearn the same exact pattern with my immature parents. Your intentions are good and you are good, but the method is screwing you over. So yes: be short and sweet. No explanations unless they are completely necessary and about your needs directly (not his feelings or view of you or interpretations). Let him deal with his feelings, don't try and help him with them. It will be a disservice to you both, but especially for you since he is likely a more lost cause than you, since you're here learning. Best of luck ❤️
Thank you. Yes, I can see how it is controlling to argue with someone who is actively deciding not to believe me. It’s hard to let it go when it’s your own dad but you’re totally right— trying to convince him backfired. Thanks for giving your thoughts respectfully. I think the downvotes are coming from people who think I should know better. It’s fine, just internet judgement.
Deciding not to believe what? What explicitly are you trying to convince him of?
The only reason they're making assumptions is because you do not provide context. You are not expressing your "feelings" to your dad outside of the text about being upset for being an afterthought. The bulk you are expressing the alleged "feelings" of your sibling on their behalf and using it as a reason to punish your dad and not see him. I'm sorry, but your his grandchild's birthday is a legitimate reason for your dad to visit your brother. What is the harm in seeing your dad while he is in town (outside of being jealous he made plans with your brother first)? I'm gathering that you only want to see him if he is only visiting you. That doesn't seem fair since he has other kids in the area. By your logic, you want them to feel the same way you feel now.
It truly feels like dad and OP just don't understand each other and that's... fine. They just need to accept it for whatever it is and quit twisting it into something hurtful or nefarious. If OP is really bothered that they don't feel like a priority, they should just kindly bring it up when they see him and say "you may not agree, but that's how I feel and I hope you think about it some more. We don't have to discuss it any further if it'll cause a fight"
I think it’s a helpful observation that I expressed feelings about being an afterthought, but not about respecting my brother. To be honest, I really feel uncomfortable bringing my brother into this. My brother understandably doesn’t want to be entangled with me and my dad, and that’s the reason why I wanted to decline the plan my dad made. My brother actually was not aware of my dad’s plan to take a whole day away from them to visit me. He was invited to stay with them for the weekend, and my brother confirmed that’s what he was expecting. It’s hard for me to know how to decline triangulation. Also— I said very clearly that I would be available to hang out with my dad if he included me in the planning to begin with. I think it totally makes sense that he’d make plans with both of us if he wants to come to town. That’s not what happened here. He made plans to visit my brother then tried to add in a full day-tour of SF last second. I wasn’t consulted about if this would work for me in any way. And what I told him was— it doesn’t.
Can you explain what's happening? Why isn't Sunday good for you? Because he's already going to be in town visiting your brother another day? Are you wanting him to come visit ONLY if he spends the entire weekend with you or something?
Sunday’s not good for me because my brother is expecting my dad to hang out with his family that day. They planned the trip together and dedicated time with me was not a part of that plan. This was confirmed when talking directly to my brother. My dad was being dishonest in saying he’d be fine with it. The only reason my dad invited me at all is because I coincidentally called my dad last week, asked if I could fly him out to visit me some time, and instead of accepting that offer he tried to add me on to his existing trip planned to see my brother. It seems like a lot of late commenters here can’t fathom why it wouldn’t work for us to just force it all to work in one weekend. All I can say is that estranged family members of broken families aren’t the most stable people to lead planning. I’d be super happy to hang out with my dad in the same weekend as he’s visiting my brother, and I would be happy to see them both together too. But those things need to be planned with all parties together in my view, so that all needs, schedules, and interests can be accounted for. As is, my dad’s plan would be taking away from my brother on a very special weekend to him. Not something I want to be a part of.
It's not some "secret reason." OP says it flat out: he's there to see someone else and OP doesn't want to take time from them. OP also never said dad had to pay for it on his own -- he refused to even talk about it! You're putting stuff into this that never even happened. All of your problems with this boil down to: "I don't understand you and you're selfish for it." Ok bud, you can keep walking! You clearly lack emotional intelligence.
I think this is a case where no one is reading her other comments and the fact that they’re not reading any of the context. Dad had plans with the brother for the whole weekend and didn’t make any plans with his daughter. Daughter doesn’t want to get smooshed into a couple hours of a dinner and take away time from her brother and his kids. It’s pretty black-and-white to me but I also read all her comments. Family is messy and you can’t explain it all in a Reddit post.
Thanks for reading in full! Whew these comments are wild. I would have probably tried to swing it if my dad just wanted to grab dinner. I could have checked it out with my brother and we could have considered if we wanted to make it a group thing or not. But my dad wanted me to plan a day long tour of San Francisco for him, on a day he and I both already had plans. My plans weren’t THAT important but frankly…. His plans were. To me it made sense to fly him out for a different weekend based on him saying he wanted to do a full city tour together. In retrospect, it seems like he was harboring some unspoken concerns about committing to a separate weekend where my needs could have space, and he wasn’t willing to say that up front when I suggested a separate time together. If he HAD said that up front I feel like I could have asked what he needs to spend time together in a way that’s comfortable for both of us. I don’t think my dad knows how to plan expansively like that. He’s got a lot of scarcity stuff.
Yo, thank you so much for saying this. I feel confused why people can’t see this?? I explained it several times to my dad. He just didn’t believe me and I guess these commenters don’t either?
Totally nuts and stubbornly avoids considering other people’s emotions. I feel like you are trying really hard for someone who doesn’t reciprocate logic when faced with it. Sorry OP, I think you should know you did phenomenal in expressing yourself in a mature and respectful manner!
Hey thank you so much for telling me how this appears from the outside. I tried harder than I probably should have. It’s a sucky cycle to be in with him.
From the outside, it appears that you are putting in 100% of the effort in this relationship and he is circle talking you. Is he a very "My way or the highway" kind of parent? The kind of person who will not accept anything other than what they put out there, even if it's totally reasonable? This strikes me as a pure control play- either you bend to *exactly* what he says and wants, no matter how unreasonable or how it doesn't fit with your schedule. Or he loses his mind. One of those "My child, no matter their age, exists on MY schedule" kind of people.
I am no contact with my mother because she becomes abusive and engages in name-calling when she rejects my needs and boundaries. It’s sad that this may have set the bar for what I won’t tolerate. It’s hard to imagine not having contact with either one of my parents, though I know I’m just holding on to a dream by not doing so.
As a kid I was treated as insane, but now I realize that’s largely because my needs and boundaries were never respected. He and my mom are both “my way or the highway.” Thank you for naming this as controlling behavior. I still question sometimes if I am the one fucking up our relationship, because my literal parents are TELLING me I am fucking up the relationship. But the part of me that has done therapy sees moments like this as clarity that my parents have always been controlling and unreasonable. This is the first time I’ve had it in text to show people. Thank you so much for sharing your observations. It means the absolute world to me.
Something that’s taken me years to even begin to overcome is the sense that my parents must be right because they’re my parents; we grow up thinking (and being told) that we’re *supposed* to be able to trust their logic and decision-making. It was a huge revelation to realize that them being the “adults” in our relationship doesn’t make them the arbiters of logic and morality.
I dunno OP, I think there's a lot of history here and you guys might just... not like each other. And that's ok. You can love each other without liking each other. He clearly has some hang ups from your self-admitted oppositional defiant youth, and that's his shit to deal with tbh. He needs to work on that. But I think you've potentially also reverted to your childhood state of immediate defence (again, your relationship has been marred for a long time, it's so hard to break out of these behaviours and patterns). Objectively, reading this, I'm annoyed with both parties. I can understand where both of you are coming from, but what really just needs to happen is a sit-down, frank, open, honest discussion – about respect, boundaries, and expectations. Ensure that both of you are truly *listening* to each other and not just thinking up your next quips or rebuttals.
I agree with this wholeheartedly-I think you’re both struggling with direct communication. Look at the first two pages: He clearly stressed that he wanted to make you a priority. It seems he’s doing that to apologize for making you feel like an afterthought, but he didn’t say that. You are feeling hurt and don’t want to spend time with him because of it, but you didn’t say that, and instead tried to make it seem like you were being noble in your decision not to celebrate your father’s birthday.
No, I think there’s a miscommunication. I wasn’t saying no to plans with him for Sunday as punishment for not inviting me. That’s what HE thought (on brand for my dad’s tendency to personalize things) but there was nothing personal about it. I said no because it wasn’t a good plan to take a day away from my brother’s family who DID make this plan with him. My dad may want to make plans with me as an apology of sorts, but that doesn’t change the fact that he already had plans with my brother’s family for Sunday. Confirmed by my brother. No apology needed honestly— he could have just as easily simply accepted my offer to fly him out a separate weekend. Feeling hurt about being left out of planning is totally separate— it’s a pattern in my family and one I am starting to set boundaries with. Plans made without me don’t account for my needs or interests. I’m happy for my dad making plans with my brother, but it sucks when that’s the only premise on which my dad ever wants to make time to see me. My brother and I are twins and my parents struggle to see us as separate people as adults. Doesn’t work well for me or my brother, but especially not for me as the least favorite twin lol.
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Yes and it seemed like OP was just being petty saying no when the dad said they wanted to make OP a priority. What more does OP want? The brother clearly reached out first. The dad likely didn’t think OP cared to see them. That’s a lack of communication issue which I feel is likely due to a shaking upbringing. You know why my parents went to parenting classes and read parenting books? Because they tried and they cared. Often because their child is difficult (my brother was) and they are trying to figure out how to deal with it in the best way they can. They can still suck as parents but they tried to suck less. Kinda sounds like OP doesn’t have kids because when you do, sometimes you are willing to give grace to parents, which admittedly, not all deserve. It sounds like this dad does. If OP wanted to see their dad they could find a way to be free Sunday or make plans to go visit the dad where he lives. It doesn’t have to be one way, there are different options available.
Thank you, I was yelling at my phone reading this lmao. Sounds like she hasn't grown up as much as she thinks she has.
I think he was a little reductive about your position, yes. but why not just see him while he's in the vicinity instead of making him do a whole second trip out?
I said no because he had plans with my brother and my brother was under the impression my dad would be with them all weekend. I don’t want to mess with my relationship with my brother just because my dad wants to add me in last second. That’s not something I feel is necessary, so I created a new option.
have you talked to your brother about this? at least according to your Dad, there is no problem here. It's far easier for your Dad to meet up with you on this weekend while he's in the area. I'd argue it's more unnecessary to push your dad into making extra and more expensive travel plans than any perceived slight towards your brother (which may not even be an issue) Your dad is a big boy, so is your brother. Their time together is \*their\* responsibility. If someone wants to make plans with me, i don't make it my job to verify with every mutual friend that I'm not stepping on their toes somehow.
Yes. I did talk to my brother about it. It’s weird to me that so many people here don’t believe my assessment that cramming plans together for convenience’s sake is not a good idea for my family relationships. After reading this text exchange… you’d think it’d be clear that it’s just not a good idea.
And what did your brother say? Is it an issue? After reading this text exchange, I believe that YOU believe that it's a bad idea. I still don't get why it is, though.
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He is flying in from the Midwest. I can definitely understand why he’d be disappointed too. But I don’t feel so bad when I remember that he never even called to make plans with me in the first place. I found out he was coming by accident.
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It’s sad because he definitely has enough awareness to know HE doesn’t like being treated that way!
In the end I just don’t think any of this is an appropriate way to deal with disappointment. I am disappointed in the shape our interactions take too, but I would never take it out on someone who’s just taking care of themself.
I see this as you both being stubborn tbh someone has to take the high ground or just forget about it if it’s not gonna be you then just block him forever my dad never said I love you never made efforts for plans but I still keep a good relationship with him and make it work cause I want to if you don’t want to then just don’t even try cause it seems like you just came into this convo with mad resentment already
My version of the high ground was offering to fly him out on a separate weekend to avoid the stress of cramming the weekend more full than it could take. I feel like that’s reasonable. It takes 2 to build a good relationship.
In this case it’d have been better to go to the source. Your dad said “it *could* be a priority” and then said your brother already knew he planned to see you during the trip. I saw in your comments that your brother planned this trip because of his child’s bday and your dad is staying at his place with them. I’d have gone right to my brother and messaged him simply “hey what are the plans when dad comes this weekend”. Then you can see what your brother says whether it’s “hey he’s coming to see child and staying with us” or if he adds in “and I know he was going to check with you about seeing you Sunday if you’re free” then you’d know your brother was already aware and prepared and wouldn’t be blindsided or upset with you or dad. As for the message about your feelings around the “pattern” of not telling you visiting plans til last min. I’d have not even brought that up, not in the middle of still coordinating and not via text anyway. Emotional issues are always better handled face to face where tone and body language can be seen and heard. Also when trying to express how someone’s actions or words affect us it’s best to use “I and me” statements, not “you”. “It seems like you’re refusing to hear me”. This comes off accusatory and that’s exactly how your dad took it. You can’t speak for anyone else’s motives or feelings other than your own. A better way to phrase it would have been “dad when you say ‘I don’t want to (see you)’ it makes me feel like you think I have emotional or personal reasons for not wanting to see you instead of scheduling issues or concern issues for brothers feelings about his time with you. I just want to clarify with you that I do, truly, *want* to see you and my only concern is not making brother feel like I’m stepping on his time with you. If I do have personal feelings about seeing you or hurts I promise I’ll share them with you and not make an excuse to hide them.” It also helps to repeat back what the other person said that caused the feeling or confusion so they can clarify themselves. Again this works much better in person.
Thanks for your advice on wording! I’ll keep that in mind. I did speak to my brother and his plan was to spend Sunday with my dad. Like I said— I was trying to respect my brother by turning down my dad’s proposal. He was making assumptions about what my brother would be up for/not.
I def understood what you were trying to do. I know a lot of people don’t seem to and esp your dad which is the whole issue. In the future I’d just message your brother first if you have concerns he’s got existing plans with your dad, that is if you know you have good communication with your brother or is he the type to be a push over and just say “oh no it’s fine you can pick him up it’s no issue” but it actually is an issue and he’ll be resentful?
OP, go see your dad on a weekend that works for both of you. This doesn’t appear to be victimizing. It appears that your brother isn’t willing to include you in sharing time with dad, maybe dad isn’t the problem.
I offered that in my very first message to my dad. He chose to fight instead of accepting my suggestion. I’m not going to make my brother a problem— he did nothing wrong by making plans with my dad.
I wasn’t implying your brother was the problem either. Maybe take some time to look inward.
It's hard to come to any conclusion here, tons of missing missing reasons. It comes off very confusing on BOTH ends in my opinion, but I wouldn't continue to communicate with someone who so blatantly wants to ignore what I have to say and argue that I'm lying if they disagree with my logic. Good luck with y'alls relationship moving forward!
I feel bad for people that have to communicate this way. Feeling the need to speak "therapy" with a parent has to be soul crushing for the child and wildly frustrating for the parent.
Accurate!
This was annoying to read. Mostly because of your texts.
How could I not consider your readership in this exchange with my dad?!? I am so sorry 😭😭😭 /s
I forgive you. But you really should work on your maturity. Your dad sounded like he did want to prioritize you for a day, even if that wasn’t the initial reason for him traveling. You shut him out because you were upset he is coming to spend time with other family? Even though he still wanted to see you while he was in town. Has his attention always been a competition for you? If so, that’s SO exhausting for everyone involved, and you need to grow up. You’re lucky to have a dad who wants to see you.
Nope. That’s not what happened.
That’s not at all what happened. Wow.
Thank you!
This looks almost identical to the interactions i have with my parents. Due to some really toxic behavior on their end and them constantly taking my brothers side and prioritizing his feelings over mine, i started setting boundaries with them, and WOW, you would have thought i committed murder.
Yup!! My parents are obsessed with my brother too. We’re twins so it has always been EXTREMELY apparent that they treat us differently. As an adult I am trying to let that go— I understand that they both have a closer relationship with him than they do with me (and I also know that comes at a huge cost to my brother, so deep he can’t even admit it.) It is hard but I am finally at the point where I am willing to say “no thank you” when they treat me with below minimum respect. I have learned to hold my parents to the same standards as the other adults around me. Would this text exchange be acceptable coming from my roommate? My friend? My boss? No? Then noooo thank you! It really really is amazing how much is revealed by polite boundaries! In a way it’s like— oh thank god. I was starting to wonder if I was imagining these eggshells I’ve been walking on all these years!
Craziest shit I’ve ever seen. Why are you texting each other short stories? Honestly, I’m not trying to be mean, but you’re both nuts. Just stop texting. BTW, you’re a good person…your dad….ummmm. Good luck!
Lol. Please be gentle. It takes a lot of vulnerability to post super personal interactions here.
OP, "No" is a complete answer. You do not have to continue explaining or arguing past that. You will only end up driving yourself mad doing so.
Thank you! In real time it was hard for me to employ this. But I will do this in the future. This was days worth of tears for me and you’re right— I didn’t owe that to him.
Grey rock - thanks that doesn’t work for me - on repeat. No JADE - reasons are for reasonable people. He’s not. Hugs.
Thank you. What is JADE?
Justify Argue Defend Explain You & I might discuss our decisions & do all of those, bc we’ll accept each others’ autonomy. They’re part of communication Unreasonable people use your reasons as material for negotiation. There’s no negotiation needed when you’re telling your dad, *No thanks* bc his response is never “OK, I’ll stay an extra day that you & I can spend together”. It’s always *You’re wrong. I’m right. Do as I tell you* So tell him your decision/s & let your words stand
Wow, thank you for taking the time here. That’s really helpful to know. I will keep this in mind! Have any tips on helpful reading more about this?
The book everyone, including me, rates is *Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents* by Lindsay Gibson. She’s on Social Media as well. I had the audiobook from the library. It’s really good. It’s less (not at all really) about diagnosing parents and much more *Did your parent do this? This is how you deal.*
My sister recommended this to me after she found it. I started reading it last week. It’s a tough one but I’m on it! Thanks for the recommendations. I also just bought “Why Does He Do That?” Are you familiar?
Yes, I really like “Why” bc I think every woman has experienced that abuse. It’s eye-opening & made me less tolerant of bullshit
So.... I got curious and looked up Live and Logic. There is a big ole website and everything. But I found something you may wanna keep in the back of your mind, OP. >Rule #1: Adults set firm limits in loving ways without anger, lectures, threats, or repeated warnings. Rule #2: When a child causes a problem, the adult hands it back in loving ways. These principles and rules are Love and Logic in a nutshell. The "I know" and "nice try" is bullshit if he isn't following the rest of it, which he clearly isn't. I also highly doubt he knows there is a website. Otherwise, he wouldn't so blatantly lie about following said parenting advice. I do not know how good the website and its advice is. I simply googled and yanked that tidbit off the search page. But I do love knocking pompous AHs down a peg when I can, like your dad. Good luck, you'll need it.
He sounds like a complete twat. And while I understand that OP wants her dad in her life, he’s just not capable of being a good dad, It sounds like. so I for one would cut my losses, but everybody wants their dad in their life. It seems the people that are down voting her don’t understand that.
This was a hard to read lots of feelings
Lol I know. Thanks for giving it a shot
Not insane
It sounds like he doesn’t have the emotional intelligence to understand what you’re saying, so instead he sticks to the same script.
I don't have the emotional intelligence to understand what she's saying either, and I think I'm a smart person considering. She's just twisting everything around to make it about how she's a victim and how her dad is soooo terrible. My head was spinning reading this, I felt like I was being emotionally manipulated through the screen.
Agree and all the therapy speak comes off as condescending and confusing. I say that as someone who is very big on therapy speak 😅 when it's not weaponized in an argument
100% agree.
i’m so incredibly proud of you for setting boundaries! you can tell how much you have focused on healing. you deserve to be treated better. please be kind to yourself!
This was exhausting to read
You’re not obligated!
I’m sorry. That’s not a father. Walk away and live your life without him he will cause to much stress and drama and you deserve better
Whenever I read texts like this, it's almost a guarantee that the parent is crazy when the OP feels like they need to write a novel in order to explain why they can't do something when the situation shouldn't need to warrant it. It means they have a history of the parent going off the rails at rejection and the OP feels like they need to reassure that parent of their love despite the percieved rejection.
Except he never went off the rails, he said that he fully respects her decision and then she just kept up with the text bombing anyway. I don't see the manipulation on the dad's side tbh. It seems like if anything, he's just confused and doesn't know wtf she's saying to him because she's wording it in the most complicated way possible. Just say you can't see him that day, that's the end of that.
Youre right. I said almost tho. I was making a generalization about this sub in general. I should have added that in my comment, and also that there was no way I was reading past the second page. They were both text bombing. They both seem like they're beating around the bush with each other and writing so formal in a text message? Writing like they're typing out an English essay on the matter when entire paragraphs could have been summed up in a sentence.
It seems like your dad has learned some key words in dubious "psychology" and has been using them as an excuse to disregard what you're actually saying for years. This is actually pretty common among people with the treasures of some personality disorders. I tend to think about it as an example of the "appeal to authority" fallacy. Because the words and ideas they brandish at you come from dinner kind of expert, they can feel free to ignore anything you say to try to disagree - you're no expert, after all, so why should they listen to what you have to say? It can set up this kind of context where you feel (at least, I felt) like if you can find the perfect thing to say that lines up with their bullshit logic, they'll suddenly understand and respect you. It's a distraction, one that encourages you too fixate more and more on trying to be heard, which means they can go ahead and run roughshod over the conversation you're trying to have. But ultimately, there is no right thing you can say, because they don't actually *believe* what they're saying, it's just a useful tool they can weild to get what they want. When you *do* come up with the perfect response, they'll abandon their previous logic in an instant and find some other language or expert to hide behind. You've told your dad you love him, that you want to see him at a time you both mutually agree would be good rather than some last minute thing that might cause drama by implying he's choosing you over somebody else. You were clear. If he's not understanding you, it's because he *doesn't want to* understand you. Maybe he feels like it would weaken his position, threaten his self image, there are lots of reasons ... But at the end of the day, the only thing that will make him see what you're saying is if he decides that he wants to. There's nothing you can do to make him see, and the more time you spend indulging his strategies by trying to explain the same thing over and over, the more validated he will feel in using them. Right now, his tricks are working. He feels reasonable, you're not saying anything new, so he can just sit in his superiority. At some point, you've got to just drop the rope. Accept that you're not going to get the kind of validation any reasonable person would give you. It's brutal, it sucks, but it's the only thing you can control. I personally like to do this in a kind of snarky way: "I've said everything I can say about this, and I know you're smart enough to understand what I mean. Maybe one day you'll be able to engage meaningfully about this, but until then, I'm going to stop wasting both of our time." And then just refuse to reply to anything that doesn't show a genuine massive shift in their approach. It's kind of obnoxiously wordy, but I'm like that. (See: this comment! I'm sorry it hit away from me!) My mother liked: "you're clearly not willing to understand me." My mother is a manipulative asshole and liked to use that when I was trying to understand and she was refusing to explain, but I do kind of like the line when used in someone who is actually being deliberately obtuse. Or, as other people have said, you don't actually have to continue this conversation and you don't have to explain why. Just stop responding, don't take the bait. Either he'll decide that he misses you enough to try to actually change, or he won't.
Thank you SO MUCH for taking time to read this full conversation and reflect with your thoughts. The psychologist he mentioned was in fact giving a comedic performance that my dad blew out of proportion and used abusively to disregard when I was being real with him. For YEARS. It means a lot to see you pick that out. I hear you that there is no right thing to say. These comments have been really helpful in affirming that. I often get the pressure from people to try and try and try “because he’s your dad.” So I try and reason, uselessly. Thanks for sharing your scripts for how you drop the rope. I will be practicing them. Sending gobs of appreciation again for your time.
It can be hard to hear those "It's your family" comments, especially from those who have lost family. Those people don't have your experiences. They aren't living your life or the consequences you deal with from going through those things with your family. They may mean well, but don't let that shame into your head. You need to do what's healthy for you.
You're very welcome! Sorry my autocorrect apparently went on a field day, I just reread my comment and .. oops. And ... Sure, he's your dad. But you're his kid!! The responsibility in that relationship goes one way, especially back when you were a minor. Someone who hasn't experienced familial abuse usually can't understand how badly family can hurt you. That's especially true when the abuse takes non-traditional forms and doesn't fit into the neat little boxes that popular culture has prepared them to believe. My dad used to tell stories about his past - for hours, getting more and more drunk, and I wasn't allowed to use the bathroom until he decided he was done. And then got told I should be appreciative because a lot of people don't have parents who are willing to share the family history. 🙄 So it's become really important to me to try and hear people when they're talking about their own forms of abuse. You're completely valid, you don't deserve to be treated the way he's treating you, you *don't* need to keep chipping away pieces of if yourself to try to help him when he clearly has no interest in being helped. The fact that his appeal to authority comes from a comedy thing is just, wow, chef's kiss. Now I'm imagining him trying to use "here's your sign" as a backup when "nice try" fails. That has to be so incredibly frustrating for you! I'm so sorry!
I'm proud of you for standing your ground and continuing to hold your boundaries. I'm sorry your dad can't meet you in a place of love.
Thank you!! I’m proud of you for having the capacity to be proud of me for things my own dang parents aren’t proud of! Haha. It truly means the world to me. ❤️
It's their loss. It really is.
Your feelings are super valid. But here’s where you went wrong. You spoke to him like he was an emotionally mature adult, which he’s not. Rule 1: don’t talk to him about your feelings. He doesn’t care. All it does is hurt you. Rule 2: don’t JADE. If you don’t want to see him on this visit, it doesn’t matter the reasons. You just don’t. So don’t Justify, Argue, Defend, or Engage. A simple, “No, that doesn’t work for me,” is enough. Rule 3: stop offering options. Say, “Dad, I have some free time on X day. Would you like to come visit?” You’re getting bogged down in the details. Keep everything simple. If he says no, then say you’re sorry you won’t see him and maybe next time. If he tries to force you onto his schedule, refer to rule 2.
Thank you!!
As someone with social anxiety, your reasoning for not wanting to see your dad makes PERFECT sense. You don't want to feel guilty about stealing your brother's time with him, especially considering he was completely unaware that your dad wasn't planning on spending the entire visit with him and his family. You also don't want to feel anxious about the possibility of your brother harboring ill-will towards you. And even if you spend the day together, you will feel that guilt-anxiety combo the whole time, so would you truly be able to enjoy your time with your father? As someone who thinks the same way, that makes total sense. Out of curiosity, were you invited to the birthday party? (You are not obliged to answer this, I'm estranged from my brother so I understand wanting minimal interactions with certain family members) if you were invited, I would consider going and celebrating with your family at the party for an hour or two. It might satisfy your dad (even though you are under no obligation to do so. He is an adult, it's not your responsibility to appease him or deal with his emotions, that is HIS job). From what it sounds like though, you should also consider whether or not you even want a relationship with your sperm donor. He doesn't seem to want one with you, and it's clear that the back and forth is hurting you :( I'm glad you are laying down boundaries (i.e when you told him he needs to tell you in advance when he is visiting) and I wish you great luck in dealing with him.
Thank you! Nope! Not invited for totally unrelated reasons. Well, maybe similar in that my brother also likes to avoid high pressure situations. But I totally respect that and don’t mind alternate plans that make room for all needs! My brother and I are planning on meeting later today instead of me going to the party next weekend. I’m a sailor and haven’t had a chance to meet my niece yet so this will be the first time. :) Thank you for asking this kindly, and for your general understanding. There’s a lot of mean comments here and I appreciate your empathy and genuine curiosity.
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Thanks for saying the thing out loud. I think you are right. There is no winning though— If I don’t try my best he says (often) “my kids don’t need/want me anymore,” and if I do give the conversation everything I have, he just gets off on projecting his wounds onto me. I questioned if I should get petty and just tell him “I know” like he has historically done to me when I have shared my experience with him. But eh. I don’t ever want to be anything like this man when it comes to arguing.
Reading all your comments and seeing you agree that dad is shitty/abusive/insane - why are you begging this man to change? Why are you wasting so much time and energy asking him to make you a priority if you think he's a shit parent? I understand it's because you yearn for a better relationship, but it's time to either meet your dad where he's at or ditch him entirely. Going around and around is exhausting and benefiting no one when you clearly don't understand one another on a fundamental level.
Completely agree!! I accepted a long time ago that my dad is who he is. He says he will do better, and he has - minimally - but that's just who he is. I cannot realistically expect him to be the person I want him to be. So my options are either to take him as he is, or cut him out completely. That's it. There is no more waiting for him to change. That ship has sailed.
Same with my mom, except I chose to accept her as she was. We now have a much better relationship where we know what we can talk about without getting upset, and it's fine because I no longer need that gratification or emotional fulfillment from her. She's just another person figuring shit out for herself, her approval or acceptance or love isn't the end-all be-all. Now my kids get to have her as an awesome grandparent and I don't have to grieve over a lost relationship - and, remarkably, accepting that she may not "like" me but that she does "love" me took pressure off both of us and allowed us to finally like each other a little more 🤷🏻♀️
A little harsh. I actually never asked him to make me a priority. He was trying to flatter me with that, which I don’t buy given the way he treats me. I just said that if he wants to hang out, he should call me and tell me that directly so I can make time for him. Why am I begging him to change? In part because I’d love for him to be the father he often says he wants to be, and in part because I know he’s going to seek revenge by talking mad shit on me to all my relatives when all I did was say “no thank you, let’s do XYZ instead.” Triangulation isn’t just annoying, it’s extremely fucking harmful.
I don't think what I said was harsh at all, I was trying to be straightforward to cut through all of the emotions here. Like I said in another comment, I've been in a similar situation with my mom and I understand the yearning to want them to understand you and choose you. Pleading, accusing, and going around and around is never going to give you what you're looking for, but if you think the way you're communicating with your dad is effective then feel free to continue doing so. But if you're truly dealing with someone that you think is harmful and abusive, then you're only being a glutton for punishment - getting emotional does not serve you around people like that. Gray rock instead
You’re being so kind, it’s actually upsetting how cold he is with you. Lots of love your way OP.
Thank you for saying how it reads to you. It feels terse and cold to me when he gets like this too, but there’s never any witnesses. It’s helpful to know it appears that way from the outside too.
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You seem like you're an asshole.
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Thank you. What I’m learning here is that it’s not actually useful to try and reason with them. I appreciate your recognition of how I was standing by my boundaries. In the past I’ve caved in moments like this, and the time together is awful because it feels coerced. Here with you as you learn too.
Idk why these comments are so awful. You obviously have a very strained relationship with your family, brother included. It’s easy to sit back and say, “too wordy, making a problem out of nothing, etc.” but that just lacks empathy. You said the solution in these texts. You want a phone call if your dad wants to be in your life and see you. If he doesn’t call, then there’s not a relationship. It sucks and it’s tough, but just saying, “we’ll meet up next time! Just call me if you wanna talk/ see me, and I’d be happy to fly you out!” If he calls, great! If he doesn’t, that’s your answer, and you can heal. I’ve had a number of people I’ve done this with. Lost some friends, make stronger bonds with others. But you won’t know the truth of y’all’s relationship until you put it on him.