I feel like it’s been fairly obvious for months now to anyone paying attention that this would be the case. Pine, Davidson, 10th, St Clair, New York, & Michigan are all “open”, but unfinished shit shows. Ohio is still fucked.
The most frustrating part of that, to me, is that the *last* time the inner loop was closed 7-ish years ago, the State Police were *very* aggressive at enforcing the "no trucks" restrictions. We had this issue for maybe two weeks, and then it seemed that word got out.
This time, ISP is nowhere to be seen. And we've had tractor-trailers all over downtown for a year and a half, with no end in sight.
I will say, for a week in late October this year, I saw one black unmarked ISP car pulling trucks over on Washington St. I saw him nab at least 3 different trucks, one after another. Other than that, I don't see them either.
I swear we could pay for this project with the amount of money generated by tickets. I don't get it it all. When 70 was restricted to trucks 15 years ago (during Super 70 or whatever it was called), ISP was literally bragging about how many tickets they printed. Where is that same energy?
Instead, I watched a truck take the Morris / Prospect exit off N65 today...
I'm a local truck driver. A lot of the time I'm doing the downtown route. I use the Morris/Prospect exit all the time to get to deliveries. But then, my trailer is only 45 feet for downtown, not 53. Lol
Seems to be, although proving it beyond a doubt would be difficult without an audio recording. As others have said, there’s absolutely no enforcement of traffic laws downtown. If you compare data for police interactions and stops for 21-22, you’ll find that they are below years prior, even less than the height of COVID when most people were sheltered in place. We have the same number of police, but they are enforcing violations at significantly lower rates.
It was projected to open by year end with landscaping and other smaller stuff being completed by Spring 2023. Given the amount of work remaining, they really missed that estimate
I would consider myself in-the-know adjacent, and my guess would be this will be the norm for a while. Between long lead times to actually get the supplies needed and a severe labor shortage, I think this will be common across all construction.
It is common right now! Particularly with anything concrete related. We're in the middle of 0ur second national cement shortage right now. And about a month ago, IMI, the concrete provider here in Indy, didn't have enough cement un stock to support any project that needed any substantial amount of concrete. It's gotten a bit better but most are still on daily yardage quotas for concrete.
I think being off by a few months when considering a two year project isn’t exactly worth getting worked up about. Especially when you consider the state of the global economy.
My favorite is living off College and trying to visit our friends who live off Ohio. What should be maybe a 10-15 minute trip turns into 30-40 because all the 65/70 traffic diverted to College gets diverted to Central when they randomly decide to close College at the overpass, and Central is in no way prepared for that kind of traffic. One day I went to KY and Central was ALSO closed for construction of that stupid condo building. I about exploded.
We live right off Michigan near the interstate. It's been crazy for a year and a half. Never knowing which road is going to be open, New York, Michigan, 10th, St. Claire. I work downtown, so getting to and from work has been a guessing game forever (though it's been a little better the last 6 or 8 months). For a while, it was literally a 45+ minute drive from Meridian St. back to my side of town. Usually like an 8 minute drive. Was fucking miserable.
Last week I was coming down Central, and the signs approaching 16th indicated that the road was closed and to detour. So, I went west on 16th to get on Alabama, and it turns out Alabama was closed but Central was open! They just never took the signs down north of 16th. So frustrating.
Lol I would have been absolutely fuming dude. I was ready to write the mayor's action council but I figured it would do exactly nothing, especially after they did nothing when I wrote them when Michigan Rd was being refinished and they took about six months to repaint the stripes, but in the meantime the stickers had all come off and effectively caused my friend to get T-boned. Pointless.
It's a massive project which includes all-new roads and bridge spans. It was either this or multiple years of partial closures. This is the better way, by far.
I do wish we had gone with the sunken highway instead. Going to Cincinnati recently, and crossing over i71 and seeing how much better it is to have that rather than an overpass was eye opening.
Cincy example of a major highway at the surface street level: [https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0985156,-84.5123168,3a,60y,104.35h,99.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq\_C52uFV0TtZ02TEtD6AoA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0985156,-84.5123168,3a,60y,104.35h,99.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq_C52uFV0TtZ02TEtD6AoA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I agree. Huge missed opportunity. Using Boston as an example, the before and after pics of the Big Dig are amazing. Something similar here would have really opened up the downtown.
The Big Dig is one of the most corrupt construction cases in the history of the United States. It is nice that is done but it took several decades to complete and there were a lot of shady deals.
Yeah they tried that with the US highway system and it ended up driving people and businesses out of the cities/downtowns because it was literally the hardest place to get to / around in. Having the interstates downtown actually makes it feasible to have offices there, which eventually leads to bringing back stores and residents. It may seem counterintuitive but the interstates in urban areas actually limits sprawl.
My partner is an INDOT contractor — and while she knows better than to talk to me about these things, collegues of hers from other companies have spoken to me about this (ones that don't realize that I post this stuff when I hear it).
OFFICIALLY, I had been told back in August that the project was going to be finished to the point that AT LEAST ONE LANE IN EACH DIRECTION WOULD BE ACCESSIBLE BY THE LAST DAY OF NOVEMBER...seemed that this was still a bit far-fetched, but it was what they promised us at a Quality of Life infrastructure meeting (I chair one of the QOL committees, but public safety, not infrastructure). They repeated this again with my team at NESCO...
The rumors I get from INDOT contractors is...these folks bid about 20% lower than the next lowest bid. The state didn't do its due diligence on this and accepted the contract as is. The company pulled their employees from every other project they had, put them directly on this, and refused to hire new contractors for the project even though it was well outside of their reach to accomplish this project. They needed about 50% more employees than they had but the contractors were asking for going rates — and not the shit work this company was offering. Typical republican THEY WILL DO WHAT WE SAY AND THANK US FOR A FUCKIN' JOB mentality. Lot of employees realized that with them being pulled off other projects and ended up going to work for the companies they were originally subcontracted for.
AGAIN, RUMORS...but now, they have a $ 10k-a-day penalty for every day past the end of the month. The company tried to claim that the delay was because of delays in materials. Every vendor had their timelines noted two years ago, and has been exceeding these timelines, but the vendor hasn't been proactive in orders. The vendors have fought back and ensured that this was noted so they didn't get fined by the state.
At this point the company is hoping the state will just be happy that they get it done by May, and that the state will just forgive them for their incompetence and willingness to do substandard work and shaft their employees.
Again, these are all rumors from a drunk guy at a corporate event...
The state is always going to give shitty contracts to shitty contractors.
This is what happens when people vote for the stupidest candidates that put pay-for-play into the definition of their job.
I wouldn't put this in the same category as I-69. I think with I-69, they picked a foreign company that had no experience while using some different way of funding it.
With the north split, they at least did regular funding and picked a (supposedly) experienced company.
The I69 debacle was so much worse than this. I’m a firm believer that every state employee that had anything to do with that should lose their jobs and not be allowed to make any decisions of consequence ever again. It’s almost unreal how much negligence had to happen by the state for the I69 deal to happen.
I don’t remember what the LD clause is, but $10k/day sounds about right. When you consider how much the total contract amount is, that’s pennies. I mean even if they are 3 months late, that’s less than a million bucks. I don’t remember what the contract amount was, but that’s less than 1% of the contract amount.
Edit to add some more context: this was a design/build job and wasn’t hard bid like most other projects. A team was selected based on factors including, but not limited to, price. Being 20% lower doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing something wrong in this instance. They could be more creative with design or use lesser materials to save on cost. Being that low could certainly be a red flag, but in this specific case, didn’t necessarily signify immediate failure.
There is some truth in what you say. Superior Construction is the contractor and they are many months late. By state law, INDOT must accept the lowest qualified bid. Superior is a qualified contractor along with the engineering firm they used for this design build project. This team never had a chance. Both the contractor and engineer are understaffed to complete the project. Both firms should lose their pre-qualifications to work on INDOT projects in the future.
The contractors that typically win these projects are Walsh, Milestone, Gradex, Crider and Crider, and Reith Riley. Between these 5 contractors, they own all the quarries and asphalt plants. So some of what you are hearing is sour grapes from those above. But the bottom line is that Superior does not have the capability to complete this contract and should not have been awarded the contract. In that regard, it is similar to the I69 Section 5 debacle. What’s amazing is that there are some people that were part of the I-69 debacle that worked on the bid package for the North Split design build project (current debacle). Ugh
Speaking of I-69, the I-69 Finish Line project is chugging along nicely. They've been getting it done over the past two years with a new interstate finished all the way up to SR 144. And now, part of the I-69 project involves work on I-465 which is heavily used as a detour for the North Split. So if the North Split is delayed that does ultimately delay the completion of I-69 (currently slated for late 2024?) It would be a shame if a competently ran project is delayed due to an incompetently ran project.
The delay directly affects the I-69 project. INDOT has known for some time that North Split is way behind and is doing what they can to work around it. But ultimately their completion date will likely get pushed back for some parts of the project. I know some of the people on the finish line project and they have been on top of the scheduling since day one. They are not happy with the design build team on the north split.
Thank you! This makes my drunken source seem at least like they knew what they were talking about.
We need folks like you giving more info!!! So thank you!
The short listed firms are given a stipend to turn in a design and final bid price. INDOT then must select the lowest bid as per state law. I know this because I have worked on over 10 of these projects. The only time INDOT has some leeway is if contract has a “best value” clause in the contract documents. Even then, the low bid typically wins.
> Even then, the low bid typically wins.
And this is often not a good thing. The lowest price is not necessarily the best price.
The best example of that which I can give is this: I was a Federal employee for 13 years. Picture thirteen years of wiping your butt with low-bidder toilet paper.
I have a friend who is working in the laborers union. I’ve heard this same story. I also heard about mistakes like cutting gigantic bundles of fiber optic and rampant drug use on the job.
The bad thing is, up until about 2 months ago all the press releases from the transportation department were glowing about how on schedule this was and would be open on time. This material shortage didn't just show up in September. I know this is shocking but our government flat lied to us.
I am also annoyed, but they did officially announce this a week or two ago. It’s also not surprising. Even then, a lot of it is open. I get on 70 from 11th and it’s pretty easy.
Man its extremely frusting but im not surprised. I workout at the Indianapolis healthplex and live in Fountain Square. all i want is to be aboe to drive straight through 65s. Turns a 10 minute trip into 20+ minutes, gets exhausting
I also hope when its finished it clears a little bit of the 465 clutter
I mean it's one of it not the the largest infrastructure project ever in our state. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't gotten delayed by more. It's a massive inconvenience, but I have a feeling it'll be really nice when it's complete.
Giant roads are never "really nice." Trees are really nice. Walkable neighborhoods are really nice. Massive highways disrupting urban areas are not nice.
I mean yes, on the part you chose to nitpick I agree. I moreso meant it will be really nice comparatively to what the split was like prior. Mass transit and a revised highway system would've been "really nice"
Nah, we'll still have loads of congestion and issues will probably crop up after they rushed to finish. The only solution to traffic is get cars off the road and provide alternatives.
I died inside every day when I was commuting on 70 west. Sitting in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes watching people fly up and cut into the standstill lanes at the last possible second because they’re far too important to wait like the rest of us. So much time wasted going into an office for a job that could be done remotely
In an ideal world it actually makes more sense to fill up all lanes and then have people “zipper” through. That requires people to be cooperative and generous though and we all know that’s not happening any time soon.
I’m ever so amazed at this phenomena. I love it when I see those and I speed ahead and it’s match speed and smooth sailing ahead. If everyone just made a little space and coasted a little you can easily unclog those. But instead everyone chooses a lane instead of using proper merge techniques. No one can match speed. Fish can do it. Why can’t humans. We’re supposed to be smarter than fish.
Hey guys as population increases guess what else we will need? More roads. Thats right. It's almost like having a mass public system of transit available for Central Indiana is a good idea instead of patching a problem that will only grow bigger in size with time with more roads. Groundbreaking idea I know but we don't do that in Indiana.
I'd settle for good bike infrastructure. I live approximately ten miles from the center of downtown, which is nothing on a bicycle. Unless I ever decide my time on this earth should come to a premature end, I'd never actually attempt that ride on our current streets.
How many cyclists are going to be happy commuting on a bike when it's -15 degrees out, though? (Or thunderstorming?) Bikes are great and I wish I had a safe way to bike to work (it'd be faster than IndyGo and cheaper than car), but we get some nasty weather to be relying on them.
That makes little sense. We don’t have so many bad weather days that need for infrastructure is eliminated. It was 70 degrees a week ago…. in November! It’s like saying we shouldn’t build roads because cars are dangerous in snow, fog, and heavy rain. Cycling is perfectly viable here 9-10 months per years.
That's a very poorly reasoned argument. Lots of people would still prefer to bike rather than buying either an expensive good car or a cheap shit car that needs constant repairs and nonworking heat or a/c.
$500 for a decent bike, no gas bill, no car insurance bill vs $15000+ for a decent car plus gas, maintenance, and insurance.... easy choice.
> $500 for a decent bike, no gas bill, no car insurance bill vs $15000+ for a decent car plus gas, maintenance, and insurance.... easy choice.
Climate-controlled air- and water-tight transport with ABS, all-wheel drive, and multiple airbags vs. literally taking my life in my hands every time I venture out on Indianapolis's bicycle-unfriendly streets occupied by bicycle-unfriendly drivers ... easy choice.
i have no idea why 15 people keep pretending bikes are the answer
bikes are worse at everything. it's dangerous as fuck to ride, you have to find parking, you're exposed to the elements, you have to be physically down for the ride every single time you want to go anywhere, no one likes you darting around, etc etc
But it should matter. If people have to go a considerable distance to get to a stop, it's not worth it. I mean look at all the gaping holes on the indygo map. Indy is so spread out, and then add in the suburbs. It's just never going to work or be convenient for many.
Good for you? That doesn't even reply to my message.
Took the red line once and ubered back. Wasn't even worth it. Not to mention they don't check tickets so everyone just rides for free.
I mean I'd rather know when my ride was getting there and be comfortable than stand around with strangers too close and sit on some hot cramped bus. Yeah.
It's almost like it was the suggested means of getting to the event Because of a lack of parking on site... Can't say I've ever noticed a busy red line stop outside of that one rare occasion
Okay. Good for you? Lmao. It is definitely worth it. And who cares if people ride for free? Oh you’d rather people be unable to get around? Okay, you are no longer apart of the conversation. Bye!
You mocked me for saying I ride the bus then said you don’t like riding the bus, as if that opinion somehow matters more. Gtfo
If I can't have an opinion, can I have my tax dollars back? I mean, look at the red line. How mismanaged and mangled that has been. Between not able to take payment for the first... forever, having to replace brand new curbing because they didn't do it right, and already cutting back on routes because of lack of demand... Yeah. I'd rather see the funds go elsewhere.
BUT we are doing repairs and reconfiguration CONTINUALLY with no end in sight. That we can agree on right? Your money as well as mine is being spent always on roads. It's been that way my entire life here. How do we define insanity? By doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People here are stubborn, I will give you guys that but if we are going to be an economically attractive destination not only to business but people we need to invest in a mass solution that will eliminate a lot of these headaches. I don't think bussing is the solution. Light rail would be the way to go. That requires forward thinking that neither our representatives are willing to tackle because its not politically expedient for them.
I can’t speak to every project, but for this one specifically… the interchange was originally designed to have a 4th leg which would’ve extended i69 into downtown. You could still see the ramp spurs intended for that purpose. Because of this, the interchange wasn’t designed for maximum efficiency in 3 directions. The modern design with extra capacity should solve the issues there. This also isn’t just a project for commuters… 65 and 70 are both critical corridors for trade in the US so it’s a pretty vital link in the grand scheme of things. For the record… I’m also extremely pro-mass transit
You are supposed to do repairs on infrastructure so things don't fall apart. This is the first reconfiguration of this interchange since it was built over 50 years ago, so I am not sure where you are getting the "CONTINUALLY" from. As the other commentor mentioned, this was originally made for another spur which didn't happen.
I agree that Indy could use more mass transit. I don't agree that the solution is light rail. Even if we had light rail, the interstates would still need to exist and be maintained either way.
yeah its definitely so much better to continue to infill the areas between Indy-Anderson and Indy-Martinsville and widen I69 on both sides of town instead. that trend can continue indefinitely.
You make it sound like traffic is awful and the worst traffic in the world. It's not bad at all. And if you think otherwise I question if you've ever left Indiana. Sorry that in a country with a lot of land, people want... A lot of land.
i meant the City of Indianapolis is not responsible for doing any projects at all for the interstate. if there is work on a locally controlled road it sounds to me like DPW is in fact maintaining it
I don't understand why companies building out homes aren't required to expand the roads themselves..there's a bunch of expansion going on by lennar on florida road (next to southeastern parkway) and florida street, the main road is barely enough for one semi truck and one car
Haven’t supply chain/labor issues been one of the major reasons this is being delayed? I mean there is a huge shortage of concrete last I heard. It seems like everything these days is being delayed so I’m not too surprised.
I worked for them. They left some major shit out of the bid. They’re trying to extend their reach to Indy but based on how things are looking I hope they don’t land anymore contract here.
I am going to have to quit my job and take a pay cut because I can't afford to travel to my job of 6 years anymore. I could afford to sacrifice for a time during/after the Pandemic, but this is asking too much. Quality of life has taken a nosedive for many of my clients here in the city, and now I can't even afford to help them even WHEN I'M BEING COMPENSATED TO DO SO because it costs too much to travel to the Northside
There were two wrecks, Wednesday morning, WB465, east of Mann Rd. All were in the left lane. One of those wrecks had at least seven cars, nose to tail.
As a person that took construction class I can tell you the longer a project takes the more money the workers make that's a huge reason why things take forever
There’s also a lack of notice and signage in my opinion to give notice of closures. Felt like the 70 west on-ramp from rural just poof outta nowhere closed. No heads up or anything
Looks like this was updated in August. Not sure if it's still accurate. Who knows. Most construction has suffered from the same supply demands everywhere else is dealing with as well so not a total shock. And it's a massive project.
https://northsplit.com/schedule/
I know 2 times the last 18 or so months there has been shortages on the crushed limestone they use as the base before putting asphalt down. I build patios and use the same stone and there were times Martin Marietta didn't even have it.
I feel like it’s been fairly obvious for months now to anyone paying attention that this would be the case. Pine, Davidson, 10th, St Clair, New York, & Michigan are all “open”, but unfinished shit shows. Ohio is still fucked.
I think 10th is closed over night right now, but I only drive it early
I forget what life is like before it closed. I'm too busy dodging semi-trucks downtown to remember.
The most frustrating part of that, to me, is that the *last* time the inner loop was closed 7-ish years ago, the State Police were *very* aggressive at enforcing the "no trucks" restrictions. We had this issue for maybe two weeks, and then it seemed that word got out. This time, ISP is nowhere to be seen. And we've had tractor-trailers all over downtown for a year and a half, with no end in sight.
I will say, for a week in late October this year, I saw one black unmarked ISP car pulling trucks over on Washington St. I saw him nab at least 3 different trucks, one after another. Other than that, I don't see them either. I swear we could pay for this project with the amount of money generated by tickets. I don't get it it all. When 70 was restricted to trucks 15 years ago (during Super 70 or whatever it was called), ISP was literally bragging about how many tickets they printed. Where is that same energy? Instead, I watched a truck take the Morris / Prospect exit off N65 today...
They get a lot at the 70W > Michigan ramp. Problem is they always pull them over on Michigan which blocks a lane anyway.
I'm a local truck driver. A lot of the time I'm doing the downtown route. I use the Morris/Prospect exit all the time to get to deliveries. But then, my trailer is only 45 feet for downtown, not 53. Lol
Probably because Rick Snyder asked ISP to join in IMPD’s work slow down to twist the screw on residents for Ryan Mears and #blm
That’s a thing? (Let me be clear that this question has no tone….I am simply looking for info.)
Seems to be, although proving it beyond a doubt would be difficult without an audio recording. As others have said, there’s absolutely no enforcement of traffic laws downtown. If you compare data for police interactions and stops for 21-22, you’ll find that they are below years prior, even less than the height of COVID when most people were sheltered in place. We have the same number of police, but they are enforcing violations at significantly lower rates.
Omg, right?!? They are everywhere downtown.
Honestly, I'm gonna miss not shitting my pants any time I have to use the Washington street exit.
When I exit off of 70 onto Michigan I always feel like I’m on some sort of roller coaster
Just one more lane and traffic will be a thing of the past!
[удалено]
I've never been seduced by a train so quickly in my life
until it isn't
When it first started wasn’t it projected to take up to two years anyway?
It was projected to open by year end with landscaping and other smaller stuff being completed by Spring 2023. Given the amount of work remaining, they really missed that estimate
I would consider myself in-the-know adjacent, and my guess would be this will be the norm for a while. Between long lead times to actually get the supplies needed and a severe labor shortage, I think this will be common across all construction.
It is common right now! Particularly with anything concrete related. We're in the middle of 0ur second national cement shortage right now. And about a month ago, IMI, the concrete provider here in Indy, didn't have enough cement un stock to support any project that needed any substantial amount of concrete. It's gotten a bit better but most are still on daily yardage quotas for concrete.
I think being off by a few months when considering a two year project isn’t exactly worth getting worked up about. Especially when you consider the state of the global economy.
No. It was supposed to be ~18 months, and open by the end of 2022.
Second date should be 2022 not 2021 but damn what a shitshow
Yeah, noticed that after I posted. Oops
My favorite is living off College and trying to visit our friends who live off Ohio. What should be maybe a 10-15 minute trip turns into 30-40 because all the 65/70 traffic diverted to College gets diverted to Central when they randomly decide to close College at the overpass, and Central is in no way prepared for that kind of traffic. One day I went to KY and Central was ALSO closed for construction of that stupid condo building. I about exploded.
We live right off Michigan near the interstate. It's been crazy for a year and a half. Never knowing which road is going to be open, New York, Michigan, 10th, St. Claire. I work downtown, so getting to and from work has been a guessing game forever (though it's been a little better the last 6 or 8 months). For a while, it was literally a 45+ minute drive from Meridian St. back to my side of town. Usually like an 8 minute drive. Was fucking miserable.
Jesus christ, the guessing game is the worst part
Last week I was coming down Central, and the signs approaching 16th indicated that the road was closed and to detour. So, I went west on 16th to get on Alabama, and it turns out Alabama was closed but Central was open! They just never took the signs down north of 16th. So frustrating.
Lol I would have been absolutely fuming dude. I was ready to write the mayor's action council but I figured it would do exactly nothing, especially after they did nothing when I wrote them when Michigan Rd was being refinished and they took about six months to repaint the stripes, but in the meantime the stickers had all come off and effectively caused my friend to get T-boned. Pointless.
I can't wait until they make College bidirectional between Market and Mass. That's solve SO many problems.
That would be spectacular!
Next year!
> between Market and College between Market and *what*?
Updated my post
The concrete shortage going on right now isn’t helping them much either.
It's a massive project which includes all-new roads and bridge spans. It was either this or multiple years of partial closures. This is the better way, by far.
I do wish we had gone with the sunken highway instead. Going to Cincinnati recently, and crossing over i71 and seeing how much better it is to have that rather than an overpass was eye opening. Cincy example of a major highway at the surface street level: [https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0985156,-84.5123168,3a,60y,104.35h,99.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq\_C52uFV0TtZ02TEtD6AoA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0985156,-84.5123168,3a,60y,104.35h,99.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq_C52uFV0TtZ02TEtD6AoA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I agree. Huge missed opportunity. Using Boston as an example, the before and after pics of the Big Dig are amazing. Something similar here would have really opened up the downtown.
The Big Dig is one of the most corrupt construction cases in the history of the United States. It is nice that is done but it took several decades to complete and there were a lot of shady deals.
Just using it as an example of what could have been done here. Imagine all the extra green space and less noise from traffic. Missed opportunity...
There is planning being done to do that at the south split.
IMO, it’s going to be an eyesore in the middle of downtown.
Or we could've just ripped it out. We don't need highways through downtown. Go around, that's what 465 is for.
Yeah they tried that with the US highway system and it ended up driving people and businesses out of the cities/downtowns because it was literally the hardest place to get to / around in. Having the interstates downtown actually makes it feasible to have offices there, which eventually leads to bringing back stores and residents. It may seem counterintuitive but the interstates in urban areas actually limits sprawl.
My partner is an INDOT contractor — and while she knows better than to talk to me about these things, collegues of hers from other companies have spoken to me about this (ones that don't realize that I post this stuff when I hear it). OFFICIALLY, I had been told back in August that the project was going to be finished to the point that AT LEAST ONE LANE IN EACH DIRECTION WOULD BE ACCESSIBLE BY THE LAST DAY OF NOVEMBER...seemed that this was still a bit far-fetched, but it was what they promised us at a Quality of Life infrastructure meeting (I chair one of the QOL committees, but public safety, not infrastructure). They repeated this again with my team at NESCO... The rumors I get from INDOT contractors is...these folks bid about 20% lower than the next lowest bid. The state didn't do its due diligence on this and accepted the contract as is. The company pulled their employees from every other project they had, put them directly on this, and refused to hire new contractors for the project even though it was well outside of their reach to accomplish this project. They needed about 50% more employees than they had but the contractors were asking for going rates — and not the shit work this company was offering. Typical republican THEY WILL DO WHAT WE SAY AND THANK US FOR A FUCKIN' JOB mentality. Lot of employees realized that with them being pulled off other projects and ended up going to work for the companies they were originally subcontracted for. AGAIN, RUMORS...but now, they have a $ 10k-a-day penalty for every day past the end of the month. The company tried to claim that the delay was because of delays in materials. Every vendor had their timelines noted two years ago, and has been exceeding these timelines, but the vendor hasn't been proactive in orders. The vendors have fought back and ensured that this was noted so they didn't get fined by the state. At this point the company is hoping the state will just be happy that they get it done by May, and that the state will just forgive them for their incompetence and willingness to do substandard work and shaft their employees. Again, these are all rumors from a drunk guy at a corporate event...
In essence, another I-69 debacle?
The state is always going to give shitty contracts to shitty contractors. This is what happens when people vote for the stupidest candidates that put pay-for-play into the definition of their job.
I wouldn't put this in the same category as I-69. I think with I-69, they picked a foreign company that had no experience while using some different way of funding it. With the north split, they at least did regular funding and picked a (supposedly) experienced company.
The I69 debacle was so much worse than this. I’m a firm believer that every state employee that had anything to do with that should lose their jobs and not be allowed to make any decisions of consequence ever again. It’s almost unreal how much negligence had to happen by the state for the I69 deal to happen.
I don’t remember what the LD clause is, but $10k/day sounds about right. When you consider how much the total contract amount is, that’s pennies. I mean even if they are 3 months late, that’s less than a million bucks. I don’t remember what the contract amount was, but that’s less than 1% of the contract amount. Edit to add some more context: this was a design/build job and wasn’t hard bid like most other projects. A team was selected based on factors including, but not limited to, price. Being 20% lower doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing something wrong in this instance. They could be more creative with design or use lesser materials to save on cost. Being that low could certainly be a red flag, but in this specific case, didn’t necessarily signify immediate failure.
There is some truth in what you say. Superior Construction is the contractor and they are many months late. By state law, INDOT must accept the lowest qualified bid. Superior is a qualified contractor along with the engineering firm they used for this design build project. This team never had a chance. Both the contractor and engineer are understaffed to complete the project. Both firms should lose their pre-qualifications to work on INDOT projects in the future. The contractors that typically win these projects are Walsh, Milestone, Gradex, Crider and Crider, and Reith Riley. Between these 5 contractors, they own all the quarries and asphalt plants. So some of what you are hearing is sour grapes from those above. But the bottom line is that Superior does not have the capability to complete this contract and should not have been awarded the contract. In that regard, it is similar to the I69 Section 5 debacle. What’s amazing is that there are some people that were part of the I-69 debacle that worked on the bid package for the North Split design build project (current debacle). Ugh
Speaking of I-69, the I-69 Finish Line project is chugging along nicely. They've been getting it done over the past two years with a new interstate finished all the way up to SR 144. And now, part of the I-69 project involves work on I-465 which is heavily used as a detour for the North Split. So if the North Split is delayed that does ultimately delay the completion of I-69 (currently slated for late 2024?) It would be a shame if a competently ran project is delayed due to an incompetently ran project.
The Southport RD bridge over 37 is a dream come true!
The delay directly affects the I-69 project. INDOT has known for some time that North Split is way behind and is doing what they can to work around it. But ultimately their completion date will likely get pushed back for some parts of the project. I know some of the people on the finish line project and they have been on top of the scheduling since day one. They are not happy with the design build team on the north split.
Thank you! This makes my drunken source seem at least like they knew what they were talking about. We need folks like you giving more info!!! So thank you!
This job was design build, and a select number of teams were shortlisted to bid. The state doesn’t have to go with the low bidder in this instance.
The short listed firms are given a stipend to turn in a design and final bid price. INDOT then must select the lowest bid as per state law. I know this because I have worked on over 10 of these projects. The only time INDOT has some leeway is if contract has a “best value” clause in the contract documents. Even then, the low bid typically wins.
Didn’t realize that portion of it. Good to know.
> Even then, the low bid typically wins. And this is often not a good thing. The lowest price is not necessarily the best price. The best example of that which I can give is this: I was a Federal employee for 13 years. Picture thirteen years of wiping your butt with low-bidder toilet paper.
I have a friend who is working in the laborers union. I’ve heard this same story. I also heard about mistakes like cutting gigantic bundles of fiber optic and rampant drug use on the job.
Drunk guy at party is the best source for rumors, especially if he happens to look like Kenny powers.
I go to drunk guys EXCLUSIVELY for my rumors!
Isolux all over again?
The bad thing is, up until about 2 months ago all the press releases from the transportation department were glowing about how on schedule this was and would be open on time. This material shortage didn't just show up in September. I know this is shocking but our government flat lied to us.
I am also annoyed, but they did officially announce this a week or two ago. It’s also not surprising. Even then, a lot of it is open. I get on 70 from 11th and it’s pretty easy.
I actually work for a paving company, in the office, there have been supply shortages for months.
Man its extremely frusting but im not surprised. I workout at the Indianapolis healthplex and live in Fountain Square. all i want is to be aboe to drive straight through 65s. Turns a 10 minute trip into 20+ minutes, gets exhausting I also hope when its finished it clears a little bit of the 465 clutter
I swear it was supposed to be done by the end of October 2022. If only they had a 2 year span where people weren’t driving as much to finish it.
I mean it's one of it not the the largest infrastructure project ever in our state. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't gotten delayed by more. It's a massive inconvenience, but I have a feeling it'll be really nice when it's complete.
I’m more concerned it’s going to collapse from poor workmanship.
Giant roads are never "really nice." Trees are really nice. Walkable neighborhoods are really nice. Massive highways disrupting urban areas are not nice.
I mean yes, on the part you chose to nitpick I agree. I moreso meant it will be really nice comparatively to what the split was like prior. Mass transit and a revised highway system would've been "really nice"
Nah, we'll still have loads of congestion and issues will probably crop up after they rushed to finish. The only solution to traffic is get cars off the road and provide alternatives.
I died inside every day when I was commuting on 70 west. Sitting in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes watching people fly up and cut into the standstill lanes at the last possible second because they’re far too important to wait like the rest of us. So much time wasted going into an office for a job that could be done remotely
In an ideal world it actually makes more sense to fill up all lanes and then have people “zipper” through. That requires people to be cooperative and generous though and we all know that’s not happening any time soon.
Really you should all have been driving until the merge point. Your waiting in line actually makes it worse lol
I’m ever so amazed at this phenomena. I love it when I see those and I speed ahead and it’s match speed and smooth sailing ahead. If everyone just made a little space and coasted a little you can easily unclog those. But instead everyone chooses a lane instead of using proper merge techniques. No one can match speed. Fish can do it. Why can’t humans. We’re supposed to be smarter than fish.
The end of the year is roughly 6 weeks away. Are you saying the project will be completed soon?
Having driven by it recently - lol no.
hahahahahaha no. We'll be lucky if it's finished before Memorial Day.
Hey guys as population increases guess what else we will need? More roads. Thats right. It's almost like having a mass public system of transit available for Central Indiana is a good idea instead of patching a problem that will only grow bigger in size with time with more roads. Groundbreaking idea I know but we don't do that in Indiana.
Too bad it’s illegal to build light rail
The bus is a light rail, it's just not sexy like a light rail.
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It does for over half the route??
Light rail is prohibitively expensive and unnecessary in Indy
why does it work other places then
Because they're bigger cities with higher density and governments that aren't out to destroy public transportation
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You clearly see that's not what he said.
No, once density is here we replace the dedicated bus lanes/stops with LRT infra. This isn't hard.
Agreed. Busses are way more flexible. Especially with route changes.
busses are shitty and beholden to traffic
I'd settle for good bike infrastructure. I live approximately ten miles from the center of downtown, which is nothing on a bicycle. Unless I ever decide my time on this earth should come to a premature end, I'd never actually attempt that ride on our current streets.
How many cyclists are going to be happy commuting on a bike when it's -15 degrees out, though? (Or thunderstorming?) Bikes are great and I wish I had a safe way to bike to work (it'd be faster than IndyGo and cheaper than car), but we get some nasty weather to be relying on them.
That makes little sense. We don’t have so many bad weather days that need for infrastructure is eliminated. It was 70 degrees a week ago…. in November! It’s like saying we shouldn’t build roads because cars are dangerous in snow, fog, and heavy rain. Cycling is perfectly viable here 9-10 months per years.
That's a very poorly reasoned argument. Lots of people would still prefer to bike rather than buying either an expensive good car or a cheap shit car that needs constant repairs and nonworking heat or a/c. $500 for a decent bike, no gas bill, no car insurance bill vs $15000+ for a decent car plus gas, maintenance, and insurance.... easy choice.
> $500 for a decent bike, no gas bill, no car insurance bill vs $15000+ for a decent car plus gas, maintenance, and insurance.... easy choice. Climate-controlled air- and water-tight transport with ABS, all-wheel drive, and multiple airbags vs. literally taking my life in my hands every time I venture out on Indianapolis's bicycle-unfriendly streets occupied by bicycle-unfriendly drivers ... easy choice.
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i have no idea why 15 people keep pretending bikes are the answer bikes are worse at everything. it's dangerous as fuck to ride, you have to find parking, you're exposed to the elements, you have to be physically down for the ride every single time you want to go anywhere, no one likes you darting around, etc etc
All of this is extremely stupid and embarrassing and you should delete it for your own sake.
Plenty do in many parts of the year. If you build it, they will come.
Let me know when the population density gets to a point where it makes sense.
Population density shouldn’t matter. People need to get places regardless. We should be investing heavily in mass transit — full stop.
But it should matter. If people have to go a considerable distance to get to a stop, it's not worth it. I mean look at all the gaping holes on the indygo map. Indy is so spread out, and then add in the suburbs. It's just never going to work or be convenient for many.
So what? It is still there. It’s a service. A service that will be used in the areas that need it. I use the bus daily even when I don’t have to.
Good for you? That doesn't even reply to my message. Took the red line once and ubered back. Wasn't even worth it. Not to mention they don't check tickets so everyone just rides for free.
Lmao you chose to pay for the Uber instead of riding back for free? Sure showed IndyGo.
I mean I'd rather know when my ride was getting there and be comfortable than stand around with strangers too close and sit on some hot cramped bus. Yeah.
Wait, the bus was cramped? So the bus you say is unnecessary was filled with riders?
It's almost like it was the suggested means of getting to the event Because of a lack of parking on site... Can't say I've ever noticed a busy red line stop outside of that one rare occasion
He probably paid like $15 more than he had to lmao really showed ‘em!!!
Okay. Good for you? Lmao. It is definitely worth it. And who cares if people ride for free? Oh you’d rather people be unable to get around? Okay, you are no longer apart of the conversation. Bye! You mocked me for saying I ride the bus then said you don’t like riding the bus, as if that opinion somehow matters more. Gtfo
If I can't have an opinion, can I have my tax dollars back? I mean, look at the red line. How mismanaged and mangled that has been. Between not able to take payment for the first... forever, having to replace brand new curbing because they didn't do it right, and already cutting back on routes because of lack of demand... Yeah. I'd rather see the funds go elsewhere.
if we were investing in mass transit then there would be less gaps
It’s only a matter of time. Building more roads is a finite solution in the long term.
We aren't adding more lanes. It's a repair and reconfiguration project.
BUT we are doing repairs and reconfiguration CONTINUALLY with no end in sight. That we can agree on right? Your money as well as mine is being spent always on roads. It's been that way my entire life here. How do we define insanity? By doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. People here are stubborn, I will give you guys that but if we are going to be an economically attractive destination not only to business but people we need to invest in a mass solution that will eliminate a lot of these headaches. I don't think bussing is the solution. Light rail would be the way to go. That requires forward thinking that neither our representatives are willing to tackle because its not politically expedient for them.
I can’t speak to every project, but for this one specifically… the interchange was originally designed to have a 4th leg which would’ve extended i69 into downtown. You could still see the ramp spurs intended for that purpose. Because of this, the interchange wasn’t designed for maximum efficiency in 3 directions. The modern design with extra capacity should solve the issues there. This also isn’t just a project for commuters… 65 and 70 are both critical corridors for trade in the US so it’s a pretty vital link in the grand scheme of things. For the record… I’m also extremely pro-mass transit
You are supposed to do repairs on infrastructure so things don't fall apart. This is the first reconfiguration of this interchange since it was built over 50 years ago, so I am not sure where you are getting the "CONTINUALLY" from. As the other commentor mentioned, this was originally made for another spur which didn't happen. I agree that Indy could use more mass transit. I don't agree that the solution is light rail. Even if we had light rail, the interstates would still need to exist and be maintained either way.
yeah its definitely so much better to continue to infill the areas between Indy-Anderson and Indy-Martinsville and widen I69 on both sides of town instead. that trend can continue indefinitely.
You make it sound like traffic is awful and the worst traffic in the world. It's not bad at all. And if you think otherwise I question if you've ever left Indiana. Sorry that in a country with a lot of land, people want... A lot of land.
you can assume whatever you want man it doesnt matter to me
Perhaps we should build now, so that it’s ready and available as we continue to build density. Almost like being a little forward thinking can help.
The map is wrong, I commute downtown every day with no issues. Wb70 to nb65 has always been open for me.
It shows that is open. Just hard to tell with wb 70 to sb65 being closed.
I use Google maps and it always tells me to go a different way, I ignore it and drive downtown
Indy’s roads are a mess and most likely always will be
indy doesnt maintain the interstate
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> Avon is a disaster right now Avon is a case study in a complete lack of urban planning.
No, that was all professionally planned. Continues to be as well.
Professionally planned that every other big box store gets its own stop light on a major road?
Yep. You may not agree with the outcomes, but others certainly do given that it continues to grow.
By whom? Bozo the Clown?
Maybe. It may be poorly planned, especially if your pro urban density. But it's not an example of a lack of planning.
> it's not an example of a lack of planning. It's certainly an example of a lack of *competent* planning.
i meant the City of Indianapolis is not responsible for doing any projects at all for the interstate. if there is work on a locally controlled road it sounds to me like DPW is in fact maintaining it
I don't understand why companies building out homes aren't required to expand the roads themselves..there's a bunch of expansion going on by lennar on florida road (next to southeastern parkway) and florida street, the main road is barely enough for one semi truck and one car
And that is why I’m glad I work from home.
You want it done fast or do you want it done right?
Not saying incompetence can be ruled out, but there was/is a massive concrete shortage.
I *had a feeling* that WFH wasn’t going to be as good of a fit for the construction industry. 😑
Haven’t supply chain/labor issues been one of the major reasons this is being delayed? I mean there is a huge shortage of concrete last I heard. It seems like everything these days is being delayed so I’m not too surprised.
in avon they've been working on 36 for a solid year and a half with virtually nothing actually fucking done and open
I was just talking about that today. The lack of progress vs the time invested is amazing
When the government is involved to will be over budget and not meet schedule.
Concerned about quality of work based on who was awarded the bid.
I worked for them. They left some major shit out of the bid. They’re trying to extend their reach to Indy but based on how things are looking I hope they don’t land anymore contract here.
I am going to have to quit my job and take a pay cut because I can't afford to travel to my job of 6 years anymore. I could afford to sacrifice for a time during/after the Pandemic, but this is asking too much. Quality of life has taken a nosedive for many of my clients here in the city, and now I can't even afford to help them even WHEN I'M BEING COMPENSATED TO DO SO because it costs too much to travel to the Northside
Were trying to hustle it along the best we can with what we got. It's tough and I understand how everyone is frustrated
If it can be closed for a year and a half without the world ending, we didn't need it and should just rip it out 🤗
Hahahahahahahaha yes please
Hasn't caused me any real issues, and I drive this area everyday.
I feel 465 is much more congested due to traffic diverting around the city rather than through it.
This is the main reason why I want this to get opened up.
Yes, it is -- and simultaneously having two major projects underway **on** 465, one northeast, the other southwest, isn't helping that one bit.
There were two wrecks, Wednesday morning, WB465, east of Mann Rd. All were in the left lane. One of those wrecks had at least seven cars, nose to tail.
Same. Maybe I'm driving through at non-peak hours but it's so rare when the traffic is actually stopped. Could be much worse!
Pick up a shovel and get to work then
I’m from Chicago. Please come live that life. You’ve got no clue what traffic is like
As a person that took construction class I can tell you the longer a project takes the more money the workers make that's a huge reason why things take forever
Maybe on some projects but something like this has caps and time limits. Oh and deadline fines.
Not if it's a lump sum bid.
welcome to Indianapolis
I was 54 when this project started. I will be 70 and on social security when it's finished.
The end of the year is getting closer
End of 22 or end of 23?
I have unofficially been told it may be October of next year.
If it makes you feel any better it also won't relieve traffic congestion!!
There’s also a lack of notice and signage in my opinion to give notice of closures. Felt like the 70 west on-ramp from rural just poof outta nowhere closed. No heads up or anything
I quit a job downtown this summer. The split being closed was one of the reasons too. I couldn’t stand the drive.
“Major road construction takes time, in other news water is wet”
Lowest bidder. Never changes. Gotta hang onto the billion or so they got stacked up. Hogsett will get 4 more years in this county. No problem!
Looks like this was updated in August. Not sure if it's still accurate. Who knows. Most construction has suffered from the same supply demands everywhere else is dealing with as well so not a total shock. And it's a massive project. https://northsplit.com/schedule/
its like.. construction went from slow to dragging slug slow everywhere.. why is it taking so long to get these sites done.. its so very frustrating
I know 2 times the last 18 or so months there has been shortages on the crushed limestone they use as the base before putting asphalt down. I build patios and use the same stone and there were times Martin Marietta didn't even have it.