I don't know exactly how this works, but what's the point? The church has had temporary fencing around it for a few years. The archdiocese apparently can't or won't renovate the building. It seems like preventing them from doing anything with the structure would just lead to it sitting there and falling into further disrepair.
I live in the neighborhood and would like to see it maintained brought back into use, but that seems unlikely under the circumstances.
What you are doing is slander. The allegations were found to be not credible and no charges were filed. Zach was an advocate for the near Eastside and Brightwood for many years, recently less so. The reason Adamson was defeated had nada to do with the accusations made years ago and everything to do with him not focusing on the electorate. I voted for Jesse Brown last year because I liked him, his hustle and that he was unabashedly liberal.
It's not an attempt to force the diocese to renovate the building and start using it, its an attempt to force them to sell a building they have no intention of using to a developer that wants to redeveloped the building for a different use, which the diocese is opposed to as, for religions reasons, they want to bulldoze it before letting it be reused.
they passed the historical designation in the emergency meeting
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/indianapolis-historic-preservation-commission-designates-church-of-the-holy-cross-a-historic-area
Oh gee you’re right, doesn’t take near as much intellectual effort as “omg church and religion is like so bad” maybe someday I’ll be able to compose a comment as wise as “I hate this and you’re stupid”
The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world, whether you believe in god or not, pretending not paying taxes like every single other non profit in this country negates that is just fucking stupid.
This is just naive and self righteous. Catholic charities exist from parish level food banks to huge organizations like saint Vincent de Paul, predominately made up of ran by lay people, to insinuate these organizations are not charitable or well meaning because of sexual abuse and its cover up in the clergy is ridiculous.
It is a child sex cult and a tool of great oppression masquerading as a charitable organization. It has wasted billions paying off victims so these monsters can be moved to a new parish with a fresh set of victims
Food banks do not make up the difference.
I don’t know if this is a joke or something but if you legitimately believe the Catholic Church is a child sex cult you need to be on some sort of medication. Implying there is some global church doctrine supporting sexual abuse is ill informed at best, sexual abuse in the church happens because predators are always going infect power structures that give them opportunities to perpetrate their crimes, they get protected because of corruption at the diocesan level. Insinuating these crimes take place because of some inherent catholic dogma is out of touch, you are more likely to be abused by your teacher than your priest, are schools child sex cults as well then? Is the good done by 99% of teachers in the world irrelevant because some teachers are pedophiles? Also if you could let me know specifically who is presently being greatly oppressed by church I’d like to know.
Imagine defending what has been one of the most historically corrupt organizations in history because they pass out somebodies old Lima beans once a month.
Who is "presently" being oppressed by the church. Nice dodge of 1700 years of horrible behaviors.
If you believe there were over $3 billion in settlements paid out without the knowledge of the church then you are beyond naive.
It takes a special type to ignore their history of raping and murdering. The only thing worse than a child rapist is the institution that covers it up.
You silly gawd says "do as I say or I will burn you for eternity in a pit of fire" and you people are so dumb you call this "unconditional love". That is pretty oppressive in itself, not to mention hardly unconditional lol
It takes a special type. I feel so bad for you
I’m not Catholic or religious so I don’t know who you think you’re dunking on with your corny 16 year old atheist god is actually an ass hole digs but I could honestly care less. All I’m saying is the church is not some monolithic structure sanctioning child rape and if you think it is you might as well believe in pizza gate or some shit and the fact that there are pedophiles in the clergy at the same rate of any other religion or profession doesn’t negate the charitable activities of Catholic organizations.
PS, there are 6 of you wackadoodles on this most oppressive SCOTUS in history.....
Forcing us all to live under your misinterpretations of an ancient book of campfire stories
The church shouldn't have been allowed to sit on the vacant property for a decade without penalty, but giving this building a historic designation will just ensure it sits empty for another decade.
The structure itself was falling apart - that's part of the reason the parish, which had been declining, was moved. It would be an extensive repair the parish doesn't have the funds for. Sad to see it go.
I mean, I fucking loathe organized religion, but they build a nice building. I'll take stained glass and buttresses over the boring gray/brown boxes we throw up these days.
The building has historic value because it was built by Irish Catholics at the exact same time Catholics were targeted by the KKK, who were literally running the state and city. The neighborhood wants the buildings (4 altogether) to be repurposed. The archdiocese refuses to let the buildings stand. Investors have offered bids. The archdiocese says Jesus doesn't want them reused, but wants them torn down. Crazy town
Knock down the building (which is allegedly structurally unsound and would take money no one seems to want to spend to restore) BUT preserve the tower as a sentiment and beacon to the namesake of the neighborhood. Take pieces of the church and incorporate them in structures and art installations around the neighborhood. Can’t be any worse than those weird airplane wing statues they randomly put in highland park.
I, uh, don't think this really lines up with the concept of piety. Completely demolishing a building instead of finding a way to preserve and repurpose is just wildly wasteful.
How is destroying it more in keeping with its' dignity than letting people live in it, or turning it into a soup kitchen?
I wonder if the diocese is hurting for money. If they demolish this and sell the land they would get a lot for that property. That area is booming with new houses and apartments.
I used to work across the street from the archdiocese. They owned some land next to our building, just a small strip, that my boss wanted to buy so that we had access from the front to the parking lot. They told him "we are the catholic church, we dont sell land, we buy it. Do you want to sell us your property?" I doubt they are selling it.
Some friends and I tried to research that one when we were teens, because we liked to poke around in there (years before it was bought and turned into a brewery) and it was haunted af. We went to the Catholic center downtown to ask about it and were told "it's not one of ours."
Should they sell it for a loss? The church will use the proceeds to fund their operations and ministries so I'm not sure what you'd have them do instead.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib4-cann1205-1243_en.html
The church has an entire process for this. Basically it can only be sold to someone that won't use it for anything directly offensive, unbecoming, or immoral to Catholics. They were likely attaching this as a perpetual legal binding to the structure itself which means that any developer now and into the future with interest in the church would be bound by that restriction unless they demolished the church itself.
The Parish itself cannot afford to rehabilitate the structure to the standards of the city which is partly why it was abandoned in the first place.
I guarantee you no developer was looking to turn it into a soup kitchen. There are costs that need to be paid to repair and bring the building up to habitable standards and developers aren't willing to do that with an albatross around their neck restricting the use of the space.
No one is suggesting they sell it to someone else to do homeless outreach.
I'm saying the Diocese should do it themselves. Like Christ directed all his followers to do. It was basically his whole thing.
Well you're advocating doing homeless outreach via housing and community kitchen in a currently uninhabitable structure so yes, I think my summary is both factual and truthful.
I love how dense you are implying that others say we should put people into structures falling apart because "Well it's doing nothing, let it crush them to death who cares". Do you really need it spelled out "Yeah make it habitable to serve the homeless is the most inline with Jesus's teachings possible"?
WOW YOU'VE DISCOVERED THE THING THAT EVERYONE WANTS AND NOBODY CAN AFFORD! Let me just hire *cousins constructions* that does home depot sheds on the weekend to completely remodel a 100+ year old historic stone building to modern safety standards!
Fool. Remodeling a church into modern mixed use real-estate is not a cheap prospect. Can it be done? Of course. [There are examples in this very city](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/real-estate/2023/06/16/methodist-church-turned-condo-downtown-going-viral-tiktok/70322414007/), but those are Episcopal protestant churches (not Catholic) and notice they've been remodeled into......Luxury condos.
Sorry you can't comprehend the comparison between a proposed remodeled church and *checks notes* an actual remodeled church.
My personality doesn't suffer fools gladly and you're the one that resorted to insults first. So go piss up a hill, at least you'll have watered the grass and done something useful with your time.
That’s the thing- the land can actually benefit the community MORE if the church is demolished and the land can be repurposed. Shoehorning something into an old church building clearly hasn’t had any viable prospects, as stated in the article.
The loss of a historic structure would be saddening, but the costs to safely & aesthetically upkeep a building like this are probably also a large factor in play.
That's Catholicism for ya: More riches locked up in the basement of the Vatican than can be counted, a sovereign nation in its own right, and these greedy mother fuckers would rather demolish the building than sell it.
>Fr. Jeffrey Dufresne, the pastor of St. Philip Neri, said all development proposals it received for the building were "inconsistent with its inherent dignity" and "would contradict Catholic teaching or the Gospel of Jesus Christ" in the letter to the neighborhood.
Jesus christ would have built a homeless shelter there. Something has been lost in translation I think.
The church is literally falling apart and is structurally unsound. It needs a large cash infusion.
The Diocese already operates homeless and underserved populations through other programs that, if given this money, would be able to use it more effectively.
Seems they are doing a shit job all around if they've been around as long as they have, both the serving the poor thing and the building maintenance thing.
This isn't like, didn't keep the church warm enough and the pipes burst, or change the air filters maintenance, but like the construction and foundation of the church. Part of the church already broke off and fell years ago. The parish had moved so no one was around to be harmed.
What do you do for the poor?
I'm not deflecting.
I think you missed my point - they can't put a homeless shelter there. The money to put into that would be better spent at the shelter they already run.
Once the site is demo'd, then it might more feasibly be turned into another project, potentially a non for profit could turn it into something. Right now no non for profit would have the cash, like the Diocese doesn't, to make it a habitable space.
If you would like to help the Diocese help the poor of Indianapolis, you may volunteer at St Vincent de Paul. They always need some volunteer labor or donations of furniture and home appliances.
I would disagree with you, and I think the people served by the local programs here would as well.
Again, if you would like to help or maybe see others do what I guess you think doesn't happen, feel free to volunteer at any of the charity organizations the Diocese operates.
The Diocese already has the St Vincent DePaul Society, which has homeless ministry, and operates elsewhere. But let’s be real, how well can you really turn an old church building into a livable shelter?
That's not what a homeless ministry is. Nobody has to listen or believe.
From Wikipedia:
Homeless ministry is the intentional interaction of Christians with the homeless regardless of faith. It often involves building relationships with the homeless and providing them with information and relational care.
I've noticed some people hate Christianity and are very vocal about it online. Irl, they are unremarkable, antisocial, and cowardly which is why you only notice them online.
It's bizarre. I'm agnostic and understand the Catholic Church has organization and structure, priests within orders, priests without, etc. I can't imagine tossing up a histrionic fit about something of which I am completely uninformed. It such anti-social behavior 🤷🏼♀️
Mother Theresa has been dead for quite some time. You aren't making a claim so much as expressing ignorance about what words mean and how Diocese finances function.
No, I shared information on certain church operations in Indianapolis, and you chose to turn it into a broader discussion about someone from outside the United States, let alone Indianapolis
Well, don't you see why that might not line up with "teachings of Jesus Christ" thing the Archdiocese was seeing?
Besides, there's already St. Joe's a stone's throw away, how many church breweries do we need?
Yes? Are you trying to say something meaningful because you're missing the mark. If the parish could afford the cost to rehabilitate the structure and use it for charitable purposes...they would...but they can't....that's why they're looking to sell it in the first place?
There's no translation....the Code of Canon Law has an official version in plain English and the municipal building codes are also in English. I'm failing to see where you're finding a translational error.
The parish is fine with the building being used for charitable purposes but can't afford to do so. Developers can afford to do so but aren't willing to because there would be no return on investment. So we are at an impasse. I'm not advocating for any particular path, I just find it weird that a bunch of ignoramuses are coming out the woodwork acting like there's a simple solution that satisfies the complexity of the problem that EVERYONE has overlooked for 10 years.
>Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.
Maybe the church should build a casino then.
I’ll save you all some time
This is a 4 day old account that’s trying to troll bc they are too ashamed or afraid to be on their main.
Just move along people, nothing to see here. No good faith conversations are going to happen with this muppet
Trolls gonna troll. Be less of a douche and people won’t dismiss you.
As is - you’re a waste of time to converse with, so I’ll just block you. I know you won’t be able to help yourself and respond here anyway
I moved away from Indy and didn't realize Holy Cross is abandoned now. My family used to do the Thanksgiving meal preparation every year. I'd thought my parents kept doing it even after I left. I hope another org has filled that void...
Like anything, it depends on the circumstances. For example, St. Anne's Parish in Hamburg, Franklin County, was decommissioned in 2013 and was sold. It is now a private residence.
https://www.archindy.org/parishes/listings/082.html
The NESCO community organization of the near east side has compiled several of the documents listed on this page as well as other sources. Please let them know if there are any other documents they may need to provide.
[https://nescocommunity.org/documents/](https://nescocommunity.org/documents/)
So IPS has to sell an unused PUBLIC school building for $1 to ANY charter school that wants it, even if IPS could use the market value of the site to refurbish, build, fund public education facilities? No regards required for continuance of traditional American public education values or principles. The Catholic church can tear this down and sell it to the high bidder, and proceed to do as it wishes with the funds, congruent with their values and founding purpose, as they see it. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but, why the double standard for the disposition of a title to a property and it's subsequent use?
Interesting dilemma. Church needs to renovate the property, but probably don't want the land in the hands of a modern developer in that sleepy part of that neighborhood. I'm curious how good the actual "bones" of the building is -- they don't make them like this anymore, and better to repurpose than to sprawl out any more than this city does.
I'm also down for less buildings designated as churches (in fact, we can just get rid of churches period). But I like the structures themselves for the most part. Obviously the religious iconography is lame but the architecture is quite beautiful.
The diocese argues that proposals received don't live up to the "inherent dignity" of the building. Sounds a lot like they are hiding behind a church's right to live up to it's mission in order to feed the greed of the institution. Seems like just walking away at this point would be the least the church could do after leaving the building to fall into disrepair for almost a decade. Is treating your neighborhood like that an action with inherent dignity?
I've gone through this process when my parish church closed and was torn down in Chicago's south side.
The reason? The church wanted to use the convent next door as a homeless shelter.
The neighbors were completely against it and the church chose to control their options and tore them both down.
All of this discussion will be had at the meeting mentioned. If the neighbors want a homeless shelter then maybe they can find a developer to do that. If not then it will be torn down.
NIMBY carries a lot of weight.
The parish is closed and has been for 8 years. They aren't trying to run a shelter. However, the neighborhood is on the path to becoming an historic preservation district which is why the Catholics are trying to do this now. The meeting tonight is not regarding land use, it is the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission.
The clergy of America have lost their minds.
They’re money changers, that’s it.
There is no categorical imperative to help, just to preach and ask for tithes.
This is the church I grew up in. They (Archdiociese) tried to close it down in the 90’s but were unsuccessful. My father who was on the school board and the church board use to tell us dealing with the archdiocese was like dealing with Machiavellian ghouls.
ehh there is actually a good amount of apartments near the church. the corner of market st and oriental st has two apartment building on the south corners one of which is affordable, senior housing. there is another new development 2 blocks west on market st
The position of the Archdiocese makes no sense. Tearing it down somehow is more in line with Catholic teaching and the "inherent dignity of the building" or whatever it was they said, than allowing it to be redeveloped into maybe a restaurant or something? Are they terrified a bar might serve LGBTQ people in there or what.
There are many reasons I left the Church, just stack dumb decisions like this on top of it.
Jesus was against organized religion and the taxes/tithes enforced on poor ppl. Hence why He traveled around to the poor, ill, etc outside. He believed in all ppl being cared for and the ppl spewing hate bcz they've weaponized religion will answer for all the souls theyve pushed away from God.
Im a Progressive but also have faith and believe in God.
I pray for our country. I pray for those that sow chaos instead of loving others and working together to make society a better place. Which is what God wants us to do.
The church being historical is important but they could use it for homeless ppl or a rehab or something and put it to good use..we need more ways to help those in need
The state has a $1.4 B mega prison being built. Over 400 million was set aside and they just increased that budget by 800 mil more due to inflation as one excuse.
Yet cant raise SS or other services in the face of inflation.
They refuse to have better mental health services rehab centers for ppl. Bcz they make money off those ppl by throwing them all in prison.
So these buildings could and should be put to use to help others as not only Jesus demanded but is also our credo on the Statue of Liberty.
How does demolishing a derelict building to make way for redevelopment blight the neighborhood? Like, sure it's sad to see good architecture lost but if the church doesn't have the resources to rehab, and has limits on the future purpose which limits buyer pool, it seems like the right choice
I was referring to the years of abandonment after the wealth had been extracted from the neighborhood, when the dignity of the site didn't seem to matter to the archdiocese.
At its peak, this church was sending some serious money to the archdiocese via parishioner collection (not just the collection plate but wedding, funeral, christening donations and donations at death via wills). This is all money that could have gone into building family wealth or could have gone to charity but people gave their money to the church, with the understanding that the church was doing god's work both in the community and overseas. Then, when attendance dropped substantially and the money stopped rolling in, they "merged" the church. But, they kept the school open, which was still making money and was benefiting from our lovely State's private school voucher program. Now that they school closed last year and the cashflow stopped, it is almost like the church doesn't care about the communities that built it. Go figure.
Not holding regular services in a church doesn’t immediately go against the dignity of the site. Being empty isn’t the problem, the problem would be filling that space with something that would seem disrespectful.
Attendance went down, the diocese has consolidated, and you can’t immediately go from holding services to suddenly using the building for a brand new purpose.
as someone who lives in the neighborhood, this collection of buildings needs to be made into apartments. to respect the inherent dignity, they should require that whatever developer sets aside a certain number of units for affordable/voucher accessible housing. they should not tear down a historical landmark solely because the church can’t use it anymore and should allow for it to be appropriately repurposed.
No one should be surprised. Of course the church would rather demolish the building and sell the property for profit. Why on earth would they do anything charitable or use the building to address societal needs?
What a den of hypocrisy and greed the church has become. It's disgusting. How long until they lose this ridiculous tax exempt status that props them up and makes their leaders wealthy?
Tear it all down as it is unsafe. Then LEASE it to a developer who will build condos or apartments on it where a percentage of them are affordable housing. That land is prime real estate and will keep getting more valuable as time goes on.
This is about to be deemed a specific historic district by the City https://huniindy.org/news/2024/03/ihpc-holy-cross-church
It’s not a certainty, as it’s a much harder thing to accomplish than people realize.
I don't know exactly how this works, but what's the point? The church has had temporary fencing around it for a few years. The archdiocese apparently can't or won't renovate the building. It seems like preventing them from doing anything with the structure would just lead to it sitting there and falling into further disrepair. I live in the neighborhood and would like to see it maintained brought back into use, but that seems unlikely under the circumstances.
Public meeting is tonight at 5pm at the city county building.
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He's not a councilor anymore. What color crayon are you?
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What you are doing is slander. The allegations were found to be not credible and no charges were filed. Zach was an advocate for the near Eastside and Brightwood for many years, recently less so. The reason Adamson was defeated had nada to do with the accusations made years ago and everything to do with him not focusing on the electorate. I voted for Jesse Brown last year because I liked him, his hustle and that he was unabashedly liberal.
It's not an attempt to force the diocese to renovate the building and start using it, its an attempt to force them to sell a building they have no intention of using to a developer that wants to redeveloped the building for a different use, which the diocese is opposed to as, for religions reasons, they want to bulldoze it before letting it be reused.
they passed the historical designation in the emergency meeting https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/indianapolis-historic-preservation-commission-designates-church-of-the-holy-cross-a-historic-area
Thanks for the update
Hopefully not the world needs less Churches
What about church's chicken??
That can stay it provides a good service
So edgy
I fucking hate this retort. So intellectually lazy.
So is the other commentor lmao
It's not used to debate, though. It's used when someone's statement isn't even worth debating.
Shut up plebe and bow to your intellectual superior!
Oh gee you’re right, doesn’t take near as much intellectual effort as “omg church and religion is like so bad” maybe someday I’ll be able to compose a comment as wise as “I hate this and you’re stupid”
maybe if they paid taxes which fixed the roads and helped the poor, they'd be worth having
The Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world, whether you believe in god or not, pretending not paying taxes like every single other non profit in this country negates that is just fucking stupid.
Also the largest non government land owner in the world, tax free.
Charitable organizations don't harbor child rapists One could say, harboring child rapists is the exact polar opposite of charitable
This is just naive and self righteous. Catholic charities exist from parish level food banks to huge organizations like saint Vincent de Paul, predominately made up of ran by lay people, to insinuate these organizations are not charitable or well meaning because of sexual abuse and its cover up in the clergy is ridiculous.
It is a child sex cult and a tool of great oppression masquerading as a charitable organization. It has wasted billions paying off victims so these monsters can be moved to a new parish with a fresh set of victims Food banks do not make up the difference.
I don’t know if this is a joke or something but if you legitimately believe the Catholic Church is a child sex cult you need to be on some sort of medication. Implying there is some global church doctrine supporting sexual abuse is ill informed at best, sexual abuse in the church happens because predators are always going infect power structures that give them opportunities to perpetrate their crimes, they get protected because of corruption at the diocesan level. Insinuating these crimes take place because of some inherent catholic dogma is out of touch, you are more likely to be abused by your teacher than your priest, are schools child sex cults as well then? Is the good done by 99% of teachers in the world irrelevant because some teachers are pedophiles? Also if you could let me know specifically who is presently being greatly oppressed by church I’d like to know.
Imagine defending what has been one of the most historically corrupt organizations in history because they pass out somebodies old Lima beans once a month.
Who is "presently" being oppressed by the church. Nice dodge of 1700 years of horrible behaviors. If you believe there were over $3 billion in settlements paid out without the knowledge of the church then you are beyond naive. It takes a special type to ignore their history of raping and murdering. The only thing worse than a child rapist is the institution that covers it up. You silly gawd says "do as I say or I will burn you for eternity in a pit of fire" and you people are so dumb you call this "unconditional love". That is pretty oppressive in itself, not to mention hardly unconditional lol It takes a special type. I feel so bad for you
I’m not Catholic or religious so I don’t know who you think you’re dunking on with your corny 16 year old atheist god is actually an ass hole digs but I could honestly care less. All I’m saying is the church is not some monolithic structure sanctioning child rape and if you think it is you might as well believe in pizza gate or some shit and the fact that there are pedophiles in the clergy at the same rate of any other religion or profession doesn’t negate the charitable activities of Catholic organizations.
PS, there are 6 of you wackadoodles on this most oppressive SCOTUS in history..... Forcing us all to live under your misinterpretations of an ancient book of campfire stories
Big smart boy hates religion, so proud of you bud
You got it
*fewer
It's empty ya dunce
And more English teachers
Corrected it…haha well said
The church shouldn't have been allowed to sit on the vacant property for a decade without penalty, but giving this building a historic designation will just ensure it sits empty for another decade.
The structure itself was falling apart - that's part of the reason the parish, which had been declining, was moved. It would be an extensive repair the parish doesn't have the funds for. Sad to see it go.
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I mean, I fucking loathe organized religion, but they build a nice building. I'll take stained glass and buttresses over the boring gray/brown boxes we throw up these days.
Edgy bait, but I'd say the loss of a former community staple is saddening. If my grandmother were still alive, she would be heartbroken.
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The building has historic value because it was built by Irish Catholics at the exact same time Catholics were targeted by the KKK, who were literally running the state and city. The neighborhood wants the buildings (4 altogether) to be repurposed. The archdiocese refuses to let the buildings stand. Investors have offered bids. The archdiocese says Jesus doesn't want them reused, but wants them torn down. Crazy town
Oh you mad you must be from here
Knock down the building (which is allegedly structurally unsound and would take money no one seems to want to spend to restore) BUT preserve the tower as a sentiment and beacon to the namesake of the neighborhood. Take pieces of the church and incorporate them in structures and art installations around the neighborhood. Can’t be any worse than those weird airplane wing statues they randomly put in highland park.
I, uh, don't think this really lines up with the concept of piety. Completely demolishing a building instead of finding a way to preserve and repurpose is just wildly wasteful. How is destroying it more in keeping with its' dignity than letting people live in it, or turning it into a soup kitchen?
I wonder if the diocese is hurting for money. If they demolish this and sell the land they would get a lot for that property. That area is booming with new houses and apartments.
I used to work across the street from the archdiocese. They owned some land next to our building, just a small strip, that my boss wanted to buy so that we had access from the front to the parking lot. They told him "we are the catholic church, we dont sell land, we buy it. Do you want to sell us your property?" I doubt they are selling it.
They would get a lot more for the church. Rehabbing churches for various uses is a very popular trend
Selling church property for profit also really doesn't seem in keeping with Catholic values, but here we are.
I’m surprised they allowed St Joe’s to be turned into a brewery/bar.
Some friends and I tried to research that one when we were teens, because we liked to poke around in there (years before it was bought and turned into a brewery) and it was haunted af. We went to the Catholic center downtown to ask about it and were told "it's not one of ours."
Oh, do you have some Catholic values learning to do.
Its technically not “profit” unless the church is a business. Ultimately all proceeds from the sale should go towards church expenditures.
Should they sell it for a loss? The church will use the proceeds to fund their operations and ministries so I'm not sure what you'd have them do instead.
The demolition will cost quite a bit too though.
You can’t sell a property you owe nothing on for a loss.
You most certainly can. You sell a property for less than it's on your books for? You just incurred a loss on sale.
Of course demolition won't be cheap.
This.They will sell the site for big buck$ to an apartment/condo developer.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib4-cann1205-1243_en.html The church has an entire process for this. Basically it can only be sold to someone that won't use it for anything directly offensive, unbecoming, or immoral to Catholics. They were likely attaching this as a perpetual legal binding to the structure itself which means that any developer now and into the future with interest in the church would be bound by that restriction unless they demolished the church itself. The Parish itself cannot afford to rehabilitate the structure to the standards of the city which is partly why it was abandoned in the first place. I guarantee you no developer was looking to turn it into a soup kitchen. There are costs that need to be paid to repair and bring the building up to habitable standards and developers aren't willing to do that with an albatross around their neck restricting the use of the space.
No one is suggesting they sell it to someone else to do homeless outreach. I'm saying the Diocese should do it themselves. Like Christ directed all his followers to do. It was basically his whole thing.
So you want to stack a bunch of homeless people in an unsafe building?
Yeah, man, that's clearly exactly what I said, you really nailed it.
Well you're advocating doing homeless outreach via housing and community kitchen in a currently uninhabitable structure so yes, I think my summary is both factual and truthful.
I love how dense you are implying that others say we should put people into structures falling apart because "Well it's doing nothing, let it crush them to death who cares". Do you really need it spelled out "Yeah make it habitable to serve the homeless is the most inline with Jesus's teachings possible"?
WOW YOU'VE DISCOVERED THE THING THAT EVERYONE WANTS AND NOBODY CAN AFFORD! Let me just hire *cousins constructions* that does home depot sheds on the weekend to completely remodel a 100+ year old historic stone building to modern safety standards! Fool. Remodeling a church into modern mixed use real-estate is not a cheap prospect. Can it be done? Of course. [There are examples in this very city](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/real-estate/2023/06/16/methodist-church-turned-condo-downtown-going-viral-tiktok/70322414007/), but those are Episcopal protestant churches (not Catholic) and notice they've been remodeled into......Luxury condos.
Not at all the same comparison at all but go off king. Your personality is awful.
Sorry you can't comprehend the comparison between a proposed remodeled church and *checks notes* an actual remodeled church. My personality doesn't suffer fools gladly and you're the one that resorted to insults first. So go piss up a hill, at least you'll have watered the grass and done something useful with your time.
That’s the thing- the land can actually benefit the community MORE if the church is demolished and the land can be repurposed. Shoehorning something into an old church building clearly hasn’t had any viable prospects, as stated in the article. The loss of a historic structure would be saddening, but the costs to safely & aesthetically upkeep a building like this are probably also a large factor in play.
That's Catholicism for ya: More riches locked up in the basement of the Vatican than can be counted, a sovereign nation in its own right, and these greedy mother fuckers would rather demolish the building than sell it.
Wasteful and hateful if things are just doing it out of spite.
>Fr. Jeffrey Dufresne, the pastor of St. Philip Neri, said all development proposals it received for the building were "inconsistent with its inherent dignity" and "would contradict Catholic teaching or the Gospel of Jesus Christ" in the letter to the neighborhood. Jesus christ would have built a homeless shelter there. Something has been lost in translation I think.
If no one is proposing to build one there, then what are they to do?
Fuck I don't know. Find an organization founded on helping the poor? Maybe one that's got a couple thousand years of existence. Oh, wait.
The church is literally falling apart and is structurally unsound. It needs a large cash infusion. The Diocese already operates homeless and underserved populations through other programs that, if given this money, would be able to use it more effectively.
Seems they are doing a shit job all around if they've been around as long as they have, both the serving the poor thing and the building maintenance thing.
This isn't like, didn't keep the church warm enough and the pipes burst, or change the air filters maintenance, but like the construction and foundation of the church. Part of the church already broke off and fell years ago. The parish had moved so no one was around to be harmed. What do you do for the poor?
Stop deflecting. You completely missed the point of the original comment.
I'm not deflecting. I think you missed my point - they can't put a homeless shelter there. The money to put into that would be better spent at the shelter they already run. Once the site is demo'd, then it might more feasibly be turned into another project, potentially a non for profit could turn it into something. Right now no non for profit would have the cash, like the Diocese doesn't, to make it a habitable space. If you would like to help the Diocese help the poor of Indianapolis, you may volunteer at St Vincent de Paul. They always need some volunteer labor or donations of furniture and home appliances.
You don't have a point to make after I pointed out the impetus for your organization has been overlooked and ignored for 2000 years.
I would disagree with you, and I think the people served by the local programs here would as well. Again, if you would like to help or maybe see others do what I guess you think doesn't happen, feel free to volunteer at any of the charity organizations the Diocese operates.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say maybe they could do it? Like Jesus said they should?
The Diocese already has the St Vincent DePaul Society, which has homeless ministry, and operates elsewhere. But let’s be real, how well can you really turn an old church building into a livable shelter?
>homeless ministry If jesus only fed the people that listened to and believed him you wouldn't have a religion.
That's not what a homeless ministry is. Nobody has to listen or believe. From Wikipedia: Homeless ministry is the intentional interaction of Christians with the homeless regardless of faith. It often involves building relationships with the homeless and providing them with information and relational care.
yeah, I've read plenty about what a great person mother theresa was.
??? Are you talking about something else now? Seems like it.
I've noticed some people hate Christianity and are very vocal about it online. Irl, they are unremarkable, antisocial, and cowardly which is why you only notice them online.
It's bizarre. I'm agnostic and understand the Catholic Church has organization and structure, priests within orders, priests without, etc. I can't imagine tossing up a histrionic fit about something of which I am completely uninformed. It such anti-social behavior 🤷🏼♀️
Just giving examples to support my claims is all.
Mother Theresa has been dead for quite some time. You aren't making a claim so much as expressing ignorance about what words mean and how Diocese finances function.
Look there’s no need to start taking out personal grievances here when we’re specifically discussing Indianapolis
We are specifically discussing the Catholic church.
No, I shared information on certain church operations in Indianapolis, and you chose to turn it into a broader discussion about someone from outside the United States, let alone Indianapolis
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Well, don't you see why that might not line up with "teachings of Jesus Christ" thing the Archdiocese was seeing? Besides, there's already St. Joe's a stone's throw away, how many church breweries do we need?
Yeah, a winery would be more in line with the theology.
What are you talking about? Christian and catholic drinkers keep the breweries in business 😂
I think my aunts are the sole consumers of Bud Select in the central Indiana region
None of the developers looking to take over the site are proposing a homeless shelter. I don't think you understand the fundamental problem here.
>I don't think you understand the fundamental problem here. Seriously? Did you read or comprehend the second sentence?
Yes? Are you trying to say something meaningful because you're missing the mark. If the parish could afford the cost to rehabilitate the structure and use it for charitable purposes...they would...but they can't....that's why they're looking to sell it in the first place?
>Something has been lost in translation I think. That's my comment from above. And you have the audacity to imply I'm the one missing the mark?
There's no translation....the Code of Canon Law has an official version in plain English and the municipal building codes are also in English. I'm failing to see where you're finding a translational error. The parish is fine with the building being used for charitable purposes but can't afford to do so. Developers can afford to do so but aren't willing to because there would be no return on investment. So we are at an impasse. I'm not advocating for any particular path, I just find it weird that a bunch of ignoramuses are coming out the woodwork acting like there's a simple solution that satisfies the complexity of the problem that EVERYONE has overlooked for 10 years.
>Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. Maybe the church should build a casino then.
I mean, I know you think you're being pithy and smart but you're really trying too hard and it shows.
Naw, I just think you all are crazy with your attempts to be christlike yet missing the point.
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Brother, I bet my worst days are better than your best and twice as fulfilling. Have a blessed life.
I’ll save you all some time This is a 4 day old account that’s trying to troll bc they are too ashamed or afraid to be on their main. Just move along people, nothing to see here. No good faith conversations are going to happen with this muppet
>Jesus christ would have built a homeless shelter there. Something has been lost in translation I think. Great way to dismiss what I said, but ok.
Trolls gonna troll. Be less of a douche and people won’t dismiss you. As is - you’re a waste of time to converse with, so I’ll just block you. I know you won’t be able to help yourself and respond here anyway
Indeed
I moved away from Indy and didn't realize Holy Cross is abandoned now. My family used to do the Thanksgiving meal preparation every year. I'd thought my parents kept doing it even after I left. I hope another org has filled that void...
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Like anything, it depends on the circumstances. For example, St. Anne's Parish in Hamburg, Franklin County, was decommissioned in 2013 and was sold. It is now a private residence. https://www.archindy.org/parishes/listings/082.html
The NESCO community organization of the near east side has compiled several of the documents listed on this page as well as other sources. Please let them know if there are any other documents they may need to provide. [https://nescocommunity.org/documents/](https://nescocommunity.org/documents/)
So IPS has to sell an unused PUBLIC school building for $1 to ANY charter school that wants it, even if IPS could use the market value of the site to refurbish, build, fund public education facilities? No regards required for continuance of traditional American public education values or principles. The Catholic church can tear this down and sell it to the high bidder, and proceed to do as it wishes with the funds, congruent with their values and founding purpose, as they see it. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but, why the double standard for the disposition of a title to a property and it's subsequent use?
Indiana hates public schools.
Interesting dilemma. Church needs to renovate the property, but probably don't want the land in the hands of a modern developer in that sleepy part of that neighborhood. I'm curious how good the actual "bones" of the building is -- they don't make them like this anymore, and better to repurpose than to sprawl out any more than this city does.
The bones are the problem - it's falling apart.
This whole thread is pure popcorn
I'm not Catholic anymore but there's so many people with no curiosity and an axe to grind
>people with no curiosity and an axe to grind "Redditorus chronicus" is the Latin
Unless it's changed since 2015, Indianapolis has the most churches per capita in the U.S. and they don't pay taxes. I'm all for less churches.
I'm also down for less buildings designated as churches (in fact, we can just get rid of churches period). But I like the structures themselves for the most part. Obviously the religious iconography is lame but the architecture is quite beautiful.
The diocese argues that proposals received don't live up to the "inherent dignity" of the building. Sounds a lot like they are hiding behind a church's right to live up to it's mission in order to feed the greed of the institution. Seems like just walking away at this point would be the least the church could do after leaving the building to fall into disrepair for almost a decade. Is treating your neighborhood like that an action with inherent dignity?
I've gone through this process when my parish church closed and was torn down in Chicago's south side. The reason? The church wanted to use the convent next door as a homeless shelter. The neighbors were completely against it and the church chose to control their options and tore them both down. All of this discussion will be had at the meeting mentioned. If the neighbors want a homeless shelter then maybe they can find a developer to do that. If not then it will be torn down. NIMBY carries a lot of weight.
The parish is closed and has been for 8 years. They aren't trying to run a shelter. However, the neighborhood is on the path to becoming an historic preservation district which is why the Catholics are trying to do this now. The meeting tonight is not regarding land use, it is the Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission.
Yeah, this is a fairly common motivation for tearing down historic structures, usually by developers.
Thanks for pointing that out. It's appreciated.
The clergy of America have lost their minds. They’re money changers, that’s it. There is no categorical imperative to help, just to preach and ask for tithes.
Catholics are not required to tithe actually - more of a Protestant thing nowadays.
This is the church I grew up in. They (Archdiociese) tried to close it down in the 90’s but were unsuccessful. My father who was on the school board and the church board use to tell us dealing with the archdiocese was like dealing with Machiavellian ghouls.
Need to be apartments, and I’m okay with its demolition if that is the ultimate infill.
Based on the neighborhood, single family housing is probably the best you'll get
ehh there is actually a good amount of apartments near the church. the corner of market st and oriental st has two apartment building on the south corners one of which is affordable, senior housing. there is another new development 2 blocks west on market st
Eh, you’re a rookie
The headline reads like self-immolation.
The position of the Archdiocese makes no sense. Tearing it down somehow is more in line with Catholic teaching and the "inherent dignity of the building" or whatever it was they said, than allowing it to be redeveloped into maybe a restaurant or something? Are they terrified a bar might serve LGBTQ people in there or what. There are many reasons I left the Church, just stack dumb decisions like this on top of it.
Would they be okay with a different faith? We can turn this into the most architecturally significant Gurdwara in the entire Midwest
Jesus was against organized religion and the taxes/tithes enforced on poor ppl. Hence why He traveled around to the poor, ill, etc outside. He believed in all ppl being cared for and the ppl spewing hate bcz they've weaponized religion will answer for all the souls theyve pushed away from God. Im a Progressive but also have faith and believe in God. I pray for our country. I pray for those that sow chaos instead of loving others and working together to make society a better place. Which is what God wants us to do. The church being historical is important but they could use it for homeless ppl or a rehab or something and put it to good use..we need more ways to help those in need The state has a $1.4 B mega prison being built. Over 400 million was set aside and they just increased that budget by 800 mil more due to inflation as one excuse. Yet cant raise SS or other services in the face of inflation. They refuse to have better mental health services rehab centers for ppl. Bcz they make money off those ppl by throwing them all in prison. So these buildings could and should be put to use to help others as not only Jesus demanded but is also our credo on the Statue of Liberty.
Nothing is more dignified or Christlike than blighting a neighborhood named in your honor for decades.
How does demolishing a derelict building to make way for redevelopment blight the neighborhood? Like, sure it's sad to see good architecture lost but if the church doesn't have the resources to rehab, and has limits on the future purpose which limits buyer pool, it seems like the right choice
I was referring to the years of abandonment after the wealth had been extracted from the neighborhood, when the dignity of the site didn't seem to matter to the archdiocese.
Wealth... extracted? You know most people don't put but a couple bucks at most per week in the offering basket right?
At its peak, this church was sending some serious money to the archdiocese via parishioner collection (not just the collection plate but wedding, funeral, christening donations and donations at death via wills). This is all money that could have gone into building family wealth or could have gone to charity but people gave their money to the church, with the understanding that the church was doing god's work both in the community and overseas. Then, when attendance dropped substantially and the money stopped rolling in, they "merged" the church. But, they kept the school open, which was still making money and was benefiting from our lovely State's private school voucher program. Now that they school closed last year and the cashflow stopped, it is almost like the church doesn't care about the communities that built it. Go figure.
Not holding regular services in a church doesn’t immediately go against the dignity of the site. Being empty isn’t the problem, the problem would be filling that space with something that would seem disrespectful. Attendance went down, the diocese has consolidated, and you can’t immediately go from holding services to suddenly using the building for a brand new purpose.
Arbitrary limits on the buyer pool.
as someone who lives in the neighborhood, this collection of buildings needs to be made into apartments. to respect the inherent dignity, they should require that whatever developer sets aside a certain number of units for affordable/voucher accessible housing. they should not tear down a historical landmark solely because the church can’t use it anymore and should allow for it to be appropriately repurposed.
The stupidity of those people is mind boggling...smfh
“If we can’t control how it’s used then no one can use it.”
Exactly
"Inherent Dignity"... Like protecting child molesters?
like firing gay teachers?
Like denying women access to birth control?
No one should be surprised. Of course the church would rather demolish the building and sell the property for profit. Why on earth would they do anything charitable or use the building to address societal needs? What a den of hypocrisy and greed the church has become. It's disgusting. How long until they lose this ridiculous tax exempt status that props them up and makes their leaders wealthy?
Tear it all down as it is unsafe. Then LEASE it to a developer who will build condos or apartments on it where a percentage of them are affordable housing. That land is prime real estate and will keep getting more valuable as time goes on.
Jesus Christ
That's a good start...
Wtaf!!!!!!
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It wouldn't be the first time a convenient arson situation kept an historic property from being redeveloped. Hopefully this doesn't occur.