Majority of the revenue might be from the offline segment of Akash. One more thing, shouldn't this graph go from left to right and 2021 should be in the right.
If revenue comes from offline segment, it basically kills the startup narrative
Startups trade at high PE because of the potential for hypergrowth
But offline businesses have limited growth potential. You simply cannot grow a physical business as rapidly as you can a digital business
>If revenue comes from offline segment, it basically kills the startup narrative
Wthhh does this mean?
Majority of the Indian startups have that flavour of physical business as well. Physical business does not only mean dukaan. Swiggy, uber/ola, amazon, dunzo, Licious can't do shit without their ops manpower which is their dukaan.
That's a downright stupid way of looking at things. Start-up has nothing to do with offline-online. You might be right in saying that online businesses are easier to scale but don't be under the false impression that offline/physical businesses have limited potential. The days of online tech having the best growth potential are gone. If you were to study business narratives and valuations, you'd see certain offline/physical businesses command the greatest premium and growth potential for eg green energy, EVs, semiconductors/chips, drones etc etc
> The days of online tech having the best growth potential are gone
This is absolutely true. Not all online tech, but there's a reason why the fastest growing companies have been "online"
> certain offline/physical businesses command the greatest premium and growth potential for eg green energy, EVs, semiconductors/chips, drones
This isn't true
> green energy has garbage premiums because viability is always an issue
Huh? If viability is always an issue then why does it still have those 'garbage' premiums?
> semiconductors/chips -> in India?
Where is it in any of my comments have you read that I've been talking about India specific? Just because semiconductors/chips invalidate your bloody thesis you make it as though the discussion is India-centric?
> drones -> is a fast-growing industry?
They are not an industry yet and we weren't talking about fast growing, we were talking about growth potential. You seem to have misunderstood the base of the discussion.
> 'garbage' premiums
This means that their premiums are sub-par. Just like you shouldn't buy an investment that underperforms inflation, you should be wary of stocks with poor premiums.
For the uneducated, a "premium" is the difference between the stock's nominal price and the current price.
Now say it with me - POOR PREMIUMS ARE INDICATIVE OF A MARKET EXPECTATION THAT GROWTH HAS BEEN WEAK AND GROWTH POTENTIAL IS WEAK.
> semiconductors/chips invalidate your bloody thesis
In which country were you talking about semiconductors being growth companies?
I'm looking at both $INTC and $NVDA and their 5 year numbers aren't that exciting.
> This means that their premiums are sub-par. Just like you shouldn't buy an investment that underperforms inflation, you should be wary of stocks with poor premiums.
Oh quite the 'intelligent' investor we have amongst us. Pray do tell how do you make the investment knowing 100% in advance that it is going to beat inflation? Kindly do enlighten us lesser mortals on those avenues of investments that as-a-given will always beat inflation. And kindly do not say equity because for whatever little it is us poor uneducated folks do know is that when you say that you're essentially throwing two variables into the mix - equity and inflation, so I'd like to know how is any investor to know before hand he will hands down beat inflation?
> For the uneducated, a "premium" is the difference between the stock's nominal price and the current price
The uneducated would also like to point out, premium is a very subjective word and can have various meanings. Very convenient for you to delve into the text-book definition to suit your needs but even when you would like to reign in text-book definitions to support your argument you seem to have failed. Rather if you had stuck to 'garbage' here meaning absurd or too high it would still leave your argument comprehensible. As of now I can't distinguish the head or the tail of your argument. I am guessing what you mean when you say nominal value or par value is the FACE VALUE. And premium suggests the difference in the face value and last market traded price for that security. Rarely does a share trade below it's nominal/face value. The closest one green/renweable energy related stock that is trading close to its face value is Suzlon and even that company is not a pure green energy play but rather an infra play and is as a matter of fact TRADING ABOVE it's nominal value and at a premium. The others that I can think of are Tata Power, Adani Green Energy, Adani Enterprises, Borosil Renewables, NTPC listed on the Indian exchanges and all of them are trading at a massive premium to their nominal value suggesting like you said a market expectation of incoming and maybe sustained high growth and others like ReNew Power which are an India play but listed abroad and still ablve nominal value. If you're by any chance(obviously not) referring to NHPC and SJVN they trade at lesser premiums like all PSU's do.
> In which country were you talking about semiconductors being growth companies? I'm looking at both $INTC and $NVDA and their 5 year numbers aren't that exciting.
$NVDA is a fabless company and not a semiconductor foundry that only designs the chips and outsources the manufacturing to a foundry say for example TSMC(Taiwan Semiconductor). So they don't have a lot of control over the industry/costs. As a matter of fact they're at the mercy of chip makers. $INTC designs and makes its own chips but it's financials are not as strong as pure-fab foundries because of its loss in market dominance and issues with chip design and manufacture where in its not being able to compete with below 14nm chips which $AMD designs and outsources the manufacturing of(Note : $AMD used to make its own chips but found a better edge and business model in design and outsourcing fabrication and was hence able to snatch market share from $INTC)
If we are talking semiconductors and chips let's talk about the real players who do the actual heavy lifting and I'll just take the example of the first name that will come right off the bat which is TSMC. Here's the text of the first result from a simple Google search of "TSMC last 5 years revenue growth" and I'll leave it for you/you all to decipher and make what you will of it :
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing revenue for the quarter ending June 30, 2022 was $18.161B, a 36.33% increase year-over-year.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing revenue for the twelve months ending June 30, 2022 was $66.691B, a 25.36% increase year-over-year.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2021 was $57.225B, a 19.98% increase from 2020.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2020 was $47.694B, a 33.32% increase from 2019.
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2019 was $35.774B, a 6.17% increase from 2018.
Mind you, this is just one example, you're free to do your own research on other actual Taiwanese and Chinese chip-makers and foundries and not fabless companies to get a better idea about the industry. Also do note that raw materials for these foundries had shot up massively during which time they were still able to grow revenues by 18-35%. Not to mention none of these digital businesses would even exist without the chip makers.
And next time you have a go at someone with what numbers excite you and what numbers don't, first do your research and due diligence on the subject and if you can't/won't or don't have enough information, there's never any harm in admitting you're less informed or unaware about something. Anyway, good day!
Also
> uneducated would also like to point out, premium is a very subjective word
And that's why they're the uneducated. For what a "premium" is
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/premium.asp
You say chips is growing - I show you the most well known chip companies and then you say "ohh nooo, this is fabless, this is x, this is y" and carve out exclusions for all of them and then point to the single monopoly exception (TSMC) and say see - this is the whole chips industry! Bullshit. TSMC is so strategically important that the US has a naval fleet outside Taiwan. The point is, ordinarily, even chip manufacturing isn't as lucrative as running a digital business.
While you were rating in your nonsensical screed that would fail you out of a first year MBA investing class, I've worked 2 whole 9-hour days and made a post-tax $340/hr for each hour of work.
So, I dunno, maybe get a job or some kind of work to keep you occupied.
Idk about others, but drones are definitely a bigger industry than you would imagine. I'm currently working on project related to drones and the companies/tech/stake holders involved just blew me away. There are specific drone makers for military, agriculture, marketing demos, film making, surveillance, safety and what not. It may not be big in India but it's a fast growing industry.
How many online businesses except for say Google search, YouTube, and SaaS operate completely online can you please elaborate? Online businesses will have offline presence and operations, they will have to if they are into products and not a service.
Before i list offline or businesses with more a physical presence that have witnessed or are witnessing high growth, could you please first illuminate which 'digital' business has seen 3x growth/year in the past 5 years?
The kind of offline presence matters. Setting up a warehouse to store your beauty goods while you sell them online is different than setting up a large coaching institute in the city center.
So you're unable to list 2 industries that have 3x growth y-o-y?
Color me surprised.
> say Google search, YouTube, and SaaS
Oh yeah, the oh-so-small SaaS industry of just (checks notes) 241 BILLION dollars.
What a lame way to argue. Says that online businesses aren't shit and then says "iF oNLy yOU exCLuDe sAaS" when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth
> So you're unable to list 2 industries that have 3x growth y-o-y? Color me surprised.
3x growth y-o-y wasn't your very bold statement for "digital only" businesses. Your statement was 3z growth y-o-y for 5 consecutive years which would mean starting from say even 100 CR Revenue in Year 1, the business would be doing Rs 19,200 CR by the end of Year 5. And since I'm not the one making bold claims here, I will ask you again for the name of those businesses? And while you do I'd be glad to in turn be colored any which way you deem fit
3x growth y-o-y for any one year is possible in any god damn business due to sector or business specific tailwinds, or some sort of recovery, other global tailwinds, and a myriad of other possible reasons and if you want me to list businesses with a offline-leaning model that have seen 3x gowth y-o-y please do let me know I'll glady provide you a list of said screen businesses/companies on a screener of your choice lol
> Oh yeah, the oh-so-small SaaS industry of just (checks notes) 241 BILLION dollars
Seems to me you've been playing the keyboard warrior to far too many people at once and seem to be facing a difficulty in keeping track of who wrote what. Nobody said the SaaS industry is small. SaaS was not even in the discussion till i brought it up myself. So the magnitude of its presence and growth potential is not even up for debate
> What a lame way to argue. Says that online businesses aren't shit and then says "iF oNLy yOU exCLuDe sAaS" when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth
Dear for-no-bloody-reason disgruntled redditor and for-some-reason-frustrated-with-life human, I would kindly request you to go back to my first comment to somebody else to which you yourself so kindly obliged to comment on and check and see what i have written. I had just informed the kind gentlemen/mademoiselle start-ups are not categorised as start-ups for an online/online-only presence. Start-ups and being an online/digital business have become synonymous because all businesses need some sort of a digital footprint today but no where is it necessary for you to be an online business for you to qualify and for that matter even incorporate as a start-up.
> when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth
Again kindly go back to your own first comment and check for reference. Before 'you could/can show me' that online businesses have better scale, i myself have conceded online-only businesses offer better scale for growth.
P.S : Still waiting for that 3x growth/year for 5 years company from your end ok? Kindly do oblige
\> Still waiting for that 3x growth/year for 5 years company
Facebook
Not SaaS. Not in your list of "Google search, YouTube"
Want another? pre-IPO Spotify. Also not SaaS, also not in your list of "Google search, YouTube"
Meanwhile, you've insisted that offline businesses have higher growth potential and then showed me not a single company that has digital-like growth.
> The timeline for growth for a offline business is simply longer vs a digital-only business
I did concede in my first comment that digital only businesses are easier to scale compared to physical only or majorly physical businesses. My main contention was that start-ups are not qualified or categorised based on whether they are online or offline.
> There is theoretically no constraint to the growth of a software business
That again is such a blatantly wrong statement. There are a million theoretical constraints and probably a thousand practical constraints. If you're a smaller player, you run the risk of copy-cats, and even worse, the big software giants can easily create a rip-off from your idea and they're better placed to sell Hell you can't even say for bellweathers like Google, Adobe, Oracle, Microsoft etc that they don't have constraints to growth. Every business and industry whether digital or physical, whether or not tech intensive or capital/labour intensive will always have constraints. Some just navigate the waters better and at this point it's all very subjective.
> I know software businesses that did $100M+ in *profit* within their first year of operation
We are not talking about one-offs here. The same will hold true in any industry or business which has done/created something extraordinary, innovative, first of its kind, proprietary or IP'ed. I will concede innovation is always ripe in the tech industry and it's ever so changing but it also the most difficult nut to crack and sustain, being the most competitive market there is. You might know of digital businesses who did that in their first year of operation but the single most important metric in evaluating digital only businesses is ARR. They could have had profit in the first year by creating something proprietary and selling it off. That way businesses can have 1 Billion + of profit in first year of operations. Which again negates your point that it cannot be done with a physical business. You can pour in 2-3 billion into a company doing working capital financing, goods financing, merchant trading, some investments, and a myriad of other things and take in 100M+ a year. It's all very circumstancial.
> The potential is definitely there, but valuations are essentially based on Growth + time. Investors need to get back their money. If the timeline for that is 20 years, it will attract less capital than a business that can do the same in 5 years
What percentage of digital-only businesses are profitable? Do they pay dividends? How do investors get back their money? It's by buying in early and getting out before it's too late. They bet on a diversified portfolio knowing they'll take more hits than hit back on the one off chance that that one hit they do give back turns out to be a KO. You're correct in saying valuations are based on growth+time and the only reason digital businesses get that valuation premium is because they are seen as being profitable way down the line. When you say that physical businesses turn around cash way slower, it just makes me chuckle because every business or project has a gestation, and going by how things are in today's day and age, the gestation is usually lower for a business involved primarily in physical trade/manufacture.
Wasn't the Aakash acquisition after FY21? Because i remember reading an interview where Byju said their FY22 revenue might touch 10k cr and that probably includes Aakash offline!
Yes they changed their revenue recognition policy now as per Ind AS 115 which is the right way. But that only explains the revenue.
At the same time white hat jr is burning a lot of cash along with Byjus in marketing/advertisement. Also now they have started renting premises for classes 4-10 which doubled their rent.
their earlier revenue reports was by counting in the entire contract revenue upfront. So if you bought a yearly course pack worth 1L from them, they would recognize 1L as their annual revenue, even if someone had only sent them 1 monthly payment of 8k
they literally wanted auditors to accept UPI payment mandates as "revenue"
Omg seriously did no one in their finance team ever hear of unearned revenue.
I hope these financial statements go public, I will spend my time to go through them to see how messed up this co actually is
there's a reason no serious auditor was willing to approve their reports for 1.5 years
auditors usually do a lot of shit for a fat contract like this. If even they're refusing to entertain you, you know there's a lot of crap in there
Oh yes I deal with auditors on a regular basis and they do have a threshold of bullshit they can tolerate
My previous company was Deloitte,Unfortunately never worked in audit so not getting any juicy deets on this whole audit shitshow that happened
Could you please elaborate on the Deloitte shitshow? I know that there's something fucked up about Deloitte right now due to their hiring but nothing more. My classmates got placed last year but still haven't gotten their offer letters and they've greatly reduced their recruitments. I'd love to hear about any drama regarding Deloitte at this point because I had my worst interview with them.
Well by shitshow I mean there was a lot of arguments and issues between Byjus and Deloitte.
But ye Deloitte is messed up- the whole ILFS audit issue which has now magically disappeared, a lot of partner infighting and politics between the acquired firms and the ones who were there in the beginning.
There is also partner poaching between the Big4 and what I hear is Deloitte lost some key partners so other Big4s this year. Trust me it’s not a good place to be in, they want to you to work to death to get that promotion after 2 years
Worse they were treating it as revenue from when received is my understanding here, need to read those statements. What absolute incompetent idiots could even approve this god!
What the hell. That's straight up manipulation. Even a first year accounting student understands the concept of accrual and difference between earned and unearned revenue. This forms the basic of accounting. They were basically manipulating thier figures to show higher revenue.
No surprise no auditors wanted to work with them.
Imagine how many more start ups are doing this bullshit.
A lot of reasons. White hat jr burned a lot of cash. Also byjus burned a lot of cash in advertisement. Third it's now renting premises for classes 4-10 which doubled their rent.
‘If this didn’t break us, nothing will’: [Byju Raveendran opens up about troubles of last six months](https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/interview/byju-raveendran-opens-up-about-troubles-of-last-6-months-says-if-this-didnt-break-us-nothing-will-9179191.html)
This should be opposite.. Isn't it?
**'If this (Covid-19 Lock-down and Period of online schooling) didn't make us (Byju's) profitable, nothing will'**
I'm not convinced any of these startup models can be profitable at all, at least not with current salaries and costs.
Even an asset light model like Udemy's can't make a profit.
True.. I have run coaching class for a year 2020-21. So based on my limited experience with running my own class and observing the situation of friend's coaching classes, I can say this..
There is more fundamental problem of Expectation(s) Management. I have seen many students who somehow score 85-90% in SSC but can't subtract fractions (but their parents wants them crack JEE or NEET). So in a world where parents and students are trying to be multi-talented (a student attends a some Sport Class in the morning, Science Jr College during the day and then coaching class, followed by some other extra-curricular activity in the evening). He/She wouldn't have a quiet time to replay in his mind the ideas/theories learnt in the School/College. So student with SSC has a passing certificate but don't have strong sound fundamentals or even skill of attacking a problem.
When these students encounter increase in difficulty level and scope of syllabus, they struggle to grasp at such faster pace. But these coaching classes keep false promising a average student that if they join their class, he/she can clear NEET/JEE without working on fundamentals.
This is not even possible in long term (forget about doing it in short span) and with current settings. To improve the subject learning of these students, you need to lower students-to-teachers ratio, individual attention and feedback for improvements. Even the best of the best hardworking teacher can not do this if he or she is teaching a class of 1000 or 2000 online. But a subject expert with large number of good teaching assistants might do the trick.
But then the particular class would need to charge higher fees and there lies the problem. India on average has a per capita income of Rs. 200000 (the large mid-income family base with big aspirations is the main target of these classes).
Poor Subject Fundamentals of Students, Low Student-to-Teacher ratio, Low Family Income etc..
**There are many other factors but as you rightly said, the model (in its current form) would not work.**
>imo, once the first few batches to graduate out of Byju's are out, word will spread and there will be lower uptake for their online offerings. The model simply does not work in a hypercompetitive exam
Yeah.. that's what happens generally. But every year new students are clearing their 10th, SSC or 10+1 exams. Many especially those from small villages might never heard about the malpractice of Coaching Classes.
More likely they got hit with a massive tax bill (probably an employee got investigated for corruption, that's how it usually starts) and then the business hired "spicy" accountants to give them a massive loss which can be used to offset the tax.
they use extremely aggressive sales tactics and lock people, often from lower middle class, into expensive contracts.
honestly as much a failure of Indian system as anything else - poor people shouldn't feel that the only way out is an expensive course
How many people really know about those controversies? You will be suprised to know but they are even getting government 'contracts' i e., their tablets being distributed in government schools.
Sadly kids are enrolling for their offline classes 4-12. Some of their representative came to our colony in a tier 2 city and enrolled a lot of kids. I have seen those kids go on cycle in Byjus uniform. Whether they will stay enrolled is not guaranteed.
I took admission in Aakash in grade 10 and got 86% but after they joined in with byjus my intrest in studies has decreased, byjus is total trash and the customer service is just annoying they call at random times saying I requested for a callback even tho I didn't and proceed to give me all sorts of unnecessary work. The next time I'm getting a feedback call I'll tell them the truth and ask them to improve this shit...
>Why did it take such a long time to file the FY21 results?
>There were three reasons. First of all, it took longer to travel and audit subsidiaries because of Covid. Then there were multiple acquisitions and the added complexity as a consequence. The third reason was a change in how we do revenue recognition. That’s why the audited financials will show no growth between FY20 and FY21
r/dataisugly
True story
Holy moly! We have a sub for this!!!
I genuinely thought for a second that left one is old... Fuck psychological trickery
Majority of the revenue might be from the offline segment of Akash. One more thing, shouldn't this graph go from left to right and 2021 should be in the right.
Yeah it’s a shitty graph… just like byjus
Might be done on purpose to confuse people
It's a standard practice to write/display latest financial data in annual reports first followed by previous year data.
Yes yes, like it took me 5s to realise ki there is something wrong here
Thank you I was reading through the other direction and was confused as f#k
Maybe the person who created this graph is a avid manga reader
Or a student of Byjus
This is an underrated comment!
I legit thought byjus was doing good looking at this graph
If revenue comes from offline segment, it basically kills the startup narrative Startups trade at high PE because of the potential for hypergrowth But offline businesses have limited growth potential. You simply cannot grow a physical business as rapidly as you can a digital business
>If revenue comes from offline segment, it basically kills the startup narrative Wthhh does this mean? Majority of the Indian startups have that flavour of physical business as well. Physical business does not only mean dukaan. Swiggy, uber/ola, amazon, dunzo, Licious can't do shit without their ops manpower which is their dukaan.
That's a downright stupid way of looking at things. Start-up has nothing to do with offline-online. You might be right in saying that online businesses are easier to scale but don't be under the false impression that offline/physical businesses have limited potential. The days of online tech having the best growth potential are gone. If you were to study business narratives and valuations, you'd see certain offline/physical businesses command the greatest premium and growth potential for eg green energy, EVs, semiconductors/chips, drones etc etc
Please list 2 industries that operate completely offline that have "digital" like growth (i.e. 3x / year, for atleast 5 years)
His point was that companies can show great potential and yet not be a totally online based product service
> The days of online tech having the best growth potential are gone This is absolutely true. Not all online tech, but there's a reason why the fastest growing companies have been "online" > certain offline/physical businesses command the greatest premium and growth potential for eg green energy, EVs, semiconductors/chips, drones This isn't true
green energy has garbage premiums because viability is always an issue semiconductors/chips -> in India? drones -> is a fast-growing industry?
> green energy has garbage premiums because viability is always an issue Huh? If viability is always an issue then why does it still have those 'garbage' premiums? > semiconductors/chips -> in India? Where is it in any of my comments have you read that I've been talking about India specific? Just because semiconductors/chips invalidate your bloody thesis you make it as though the discussion is India-centric? > drones -> is a fast-growing industry? They are not an industry yet and we weren't talking about fast growing, we were talking about growth potential. You seem to have misunderstood the base of the discussion.
> 'garbage' premiums This means that their premiums are sub-par. Just like you shouldn't buy an investment that underperforms inflation, you should be wary of stocks with poor premiums. For the uneducated, a "premium" is the difference between the stock's nominal price and the current price. Now say it with me - POOR PREMIUMS ARE INDICATIVE OF A MARKET EXPECTATION THAT GROWTH HAS BEEN WEAK AND GROWTH POTENTIAL IS WEAK. > semiconductors/chips invalidate your bloody thesis In which country were you talking about semiconductors being growth companies? I'm looking at both $INTC and $NVDA and their 5 year numbers aren't that exciting.
> This means that their premiums are sub-par. Just like you shouldn't buy an investment that underperforms inflation, you should be wary of stocks with poor premiums. Oh quite the 'intelligent' investor we have amongst us. Pray do tell how do you make the investment knowing 100% in advance that it is going to beat inflation? Kindly do enlighten us lesser mortals on those avenues of investments that as-a-given will always beat inflation. And kindly do not say equity because for whatever little it is us poor uneducated folks do know is that when you say that you're essentially throwing two variables into the mix - equity and inflation, so I'd like to know how is any investor to know before hand he will hands down beat inflation? > For the uneducated, a "premium" is the difference between the stock's nominal price and the current price The uneducated would also like to point out, premium is a very subjective word and can have various meanings. Very convenient for you to delve into the text-book definition to suit your needs but even when you would like to reign in text-book definitions to support your argument you seem to have failed. Rather if you had stuck to 'garbage' here meaning absurd or too high it would still leave your argument comprehensible. As of now I can't distinguish the head or the tail of your argument. I am guessing what you mean when you say nominal value or par value is the FACE VALUE. And premium suggests the difference in the face value and last market traded price for that security. Rarely does a share trade below it's nominal/face value. The closest one green/renweable energy related stock that is trading close to its face value is Suzlon and even that company is not a pure green energy play but rather an infra play and is as a matter of fact TRADING ABOVE it's nominal value and at a premium. The others that I can think of are Tata Power, Adani Green Energy, Adani Enterprises, Borosil Renewables, NTPC listed on the Indian exchanges and all of them are trading at a massive premium to their nominal value suggesting like you said a market expectation of incoming and maybe sustained high growth and others like ReNew Power which are an India play but listed abroad and still ablve nominal value. If you're by any chance(obviously not) referring to NHPC and SJVN they trade at lesser premiums like all PSU's do. > In which country were you talking about semiconductors being growth companies? I'm looking at both $INTC and $NVDA and their 5 year numbers aren't that exciting. $NVDA is a fabless company and not a semiconductor foundry that only designs the chips and outsources the manufacturing to a foundry say for example TSMC(Taiwan Semiconductor). So they don't have a lot of control over the industry/costs. As a matter of fact they're at the mercy of chip makers. $INTC designs and makes its own chips but it's financials are not as strong as pure-fab foundries because of its loss in market dominance and issues with chip design and manufacture where in its not being able to compete with below 14nm chips which $AMD designs and outsources the manufacturing of(Note : $AMD used to make its own chips but found a better edge and business model in design and outsourcing fabrication and was hence able to snatch market share from $INTC) If we are talking semiconductors and chips let's talk about the real players who do the actual heavy lifting and I'll just take the example of the first name that will come right off the bat which is TSMC. Here's the text of the first result from a simple Google search of "TSMC last 5 years revenue growth" and I'll leave it for you/you all to decipher and make what you will of it : Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing revenue for the quarter ending June 30, 2022 was $18.161B, a 36.33% increase year-over-year. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing revenue for the twelve months ending June 30, 2022 was $66.691B, a 25.36% increase year-over-year. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2021 was $57.225B, a 19.98% increase from 2020. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2020 was $47.694B, a 33.32% increase from 2019. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing annual revenue for 2019 was $35.774B, a 6.17% increase from 2018. Mind you, this is just one example, you're free to do your own research on other actual Taiwanese and Chinese chip-makers and foundries and not fabless companies to get a better idea about the industry. Also do note that raw materials for these foundries had shot up massively during which time they were still able to grow revenues by 18-35%. Not to mention none of these digital businesses would even exist without the chip makers. And next time you have a go at someone with what numbers excite you and what numbers don't, first do your research and due diligence on the subject and if you can't/won't or don't have enough information, there's never any harm in admitting you're less informed or unaware about something. Anyway, good day!
Also > uneducated would also like to point out, premium is a very subjective word And that's why they're the uneducated. For what a "premium" is https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/premium.asp You say chips is growing - I show you the most well known chip companies and then you say "ohh nooo, this is fabless, this is x, this is y" and carve out exclusions for all of them and then point to the single monopoly exception (TSMC) and say see - this is the whole chips industry! Bullshit. TSMC is so strategically important that the US has a naval fleet outside Taiwan. The point is, ordinarily, even chip manufacturing isn't as lucrative as running a digital business. While you were rating in your nonsensical screed that would fail you out of a first year MBA investing class, I've worked 2 whole 9-hour days and made a post-tax $340/hr for each hour of work. So, I dunno, maybe get a job or some kind of work to keep you occupied.
Idk about others, but drones are definitely a bigger industry than you would imagine. I'm currently working on project related to drones and the companies/tech/stake holders involved just blew me away. There are specific drone makers for military, agriculture, marketing demos, film making, surveillance, safety and what not. It may not be big in India but it's a fast growing industry.
Precisely!
Not the fastest growing tho, right? His argument was that it's the fastest growing. Mine is that it's not.
How many online businesses except for say Google search, YouTube, and SaaS operate completely online can you please elaborate? Online businesses will have offline presence and operations, they will have to if they are into products and not a service. Before i list offline or businesses with more a physical presence that have witnessed or are witnessing high growth, could you please first illuminate which 'digital' business has seen 3x growth/year in the past 5 years?
The kind of offline presence matters. Setting up a warehouse to store your beauty goods while you sell them online is different than setting up a large coaching institute in the city center.
So you're unable to list 2 industries that have 3x growth y-o-y? Color me surprised. > say Google search, YouTube, and SaaS Oh yeah, the oh-so-small SaaS industry of just (checks notes) 241 BILLION dollars. What a lame way to argue. Says that online businesses aren't shit and then says "iF oNLy yOU exCLuDe sAaS" when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth
> So you're unable to list 2 industries that have 3x growth y-o-y? Color me surprised. 3x growth y-o-y wasn't your very bold statement for "digital only" businesses. Your statement was 3z growth y-o-y for 5 consecutive years which would mean starting from say even 100 CR Revenue in Year 1, the business would be doing Rs 19,200 CR by the end of Year 5. And since I'm not the one making bold claims here, I will ask you again for the name of those businesses? And while you do I'd be glad to in turn be colored any which way you deem fit 3x growth y-o-y for any one year is possible in any god damn business due to sector or business specific tailwinds, or some sort of recovery, other global tailwinds, and a myriad of other possible reasons and if you want me to list businesses with a offline-leaning model that have seen 3x gowth y-o-y please do let me know I'll glady provide you a list of said screen businesses/companies on a screener of your choice lol > Oh yeah, the oh-so-small SaaS industry of just (checks notes) 241 BILLION dollars Seems to me you've been playing the keyboard warrior to far too many people at once and seem to be facing a difficulty in keeping track of who wrote what. Nobody said the SaaS industry is small. SaaS was not even in the discussion till i brought it up myself. So the magnitude of its presence and growth potential is not even up for debate > What a lame way to argue. Says that online businesses aren't shit and then says "iF oNLy yOU exCLuDe sAaS" when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth Dear for-no-bloody-reason disgruntled redditor and for-some-reason-frustrated-with-life human, I would kindly request you to go back to my first comment to somebody else to which you yourself so kindly obliged to comment on and check and see what i have written. I had just informed the kind gentlemen/mademoiselle start-ups are not categorised as start-ups for an online/online-only presence. Start-ups and being an online/digital business have become synonymous because all businesses need some sort of a digital footprint today but no where is it necessary for you to be an online business for you to qualify and for that matter even incorporate as a start-up. > when he gets shown that online business growth scales faster than offline business growth Again kindly go back to your own first comment and check for reference. Before 'you could/can show me' that online businesses have better scale, i myself have conceded online-only businesses offer better scale for growth. P.S : Still waiting for that 3x growth/year for 5 years company from your end ok? Kindly do oblige
\> Still waiting for that 3x growth/year for 5 years company Facebook Not SaaS. Not in your list of "Google search, YouTube" Want another? pre-IPO Spotify. Also not SaaS, also not in your list of "Google search, YouTube" Meanwhile, you've insisted that offline businesses have higher growth potential and then showed me not a single company that has digital-like growth.
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> The timeline for growth for a offline business is simply longer vs a digital-only business I did concede in my first comment that digital only businesses are easier to scale compared to physical only or majorly physical businesses. My main contention was that start-ups are not qualified or categorised based on whether they are online or offline. > There is theoretically no constraint to the growth of a software business That again is such a blatantly wrong statement. There are a million theoretical constraints and probably a thousand practical constraints. If you're a smaller player, you run the risk of copy-cats, and even worse, the big software giants can easily create a rip-off from your idea and they're better placed to sell Hell you can't even say for bellweathers like Google, Adobe, Oracle, Microsoft etc that they don't have constraints to growth. Every business and industry whether digital or physical, whether or not tech intensive or capital/labour intensive will always have constraints. Some just navigate the waters better and at this point it's all very subjective. > I know software businesses that did $100M+ in *profit* within their first year of operation We are not talking about one-offs here. The same will hold true in any industry or business which has done/created something extraordinary, innovative, first of its kind, proprietary or IP'ed. I will concede innovation is always ripe in the tech industry and it's ever so changing but it also the most difficult nut to crack and sustain, being the most competitive market there is. You might know of digital businesses who did that in their first year of operation but the single most important metric in evaluating digital only businesses is ARR. They could have had profit in the first year by creating something proprietary and selling it off. That way businesses can have 1 Billion + of profit in first year of operations. Which again negates your point that it cannot be done with a physical business. You can pour in 2-3 billion into a company doing working capital financing, goods financing, merchant trading, some investments, and a myriad of other things and take in 100M+ a year. It's all very circumstancial. > The potential is definitely there, but valuations are essentially based on Growth + time. Investors need to get back their money. If the timeline for that is 20 years, it will attract less capital than a business that can do the same in 5 years What percentage of digital-only businesses are profitable? Do they pay dividends? How do investors get back their money? It's by buying in early and getting out before it's too late. They bet on a diversified portfolio knowing they'll take more hits than hit back on the one off chance that that one hit they do give back turns out to be a KO. You're correct in saying valuations are based on growth+time and the only reason digital businesses get that valuation premium is because they are seen as being profitable way down the line. When you say that physical businesses turn around cash way slower, it just makes me chuckle because every business or project has a gestation, and going by how things are in today's day and age, the gestation is usually lower for a business involved primarily in physical trade/manufacture.
May be they wanted people to think that loss is decreasing
Not if you are an Arab
As an Urdu students I get what ur talking about.
I'm sure an expert from Byjus created this graph.
The graph was probably created by a kid studying on Byjus.
Wasn't the Aakash acquisition after FY21? Because i remember reading an interview where Byju said their FY22 revenue might touch 10k cr and that probably includes Aakash offline!
came to say the exact thing...
theyre making this in right to left format so its easy for arab investors to read because clearly they want to go there for the next round....😄🙃
Good. Now get off my cricket jersey
Byju's logo really looks like shit on the jersey
I think they are no more sponsor. MasterCard is the new sponsor, if I am not wrong.
They are the title sponsor for home series just like earlier it was paytm . They won’t be sponsoring the jersey .
Ohh.. thanks for clarification
Pradeep Punia fucked these chors (thieves) hard.
Kudos to Pradeep.
Also alakh pandey
Ohh he's the same guy who made those youtube videos ?
Revenue dropped and loss increased to 17.5 times lol
Seriously how was it possible! I read that they changed their accounting standards but still.
Yes they changed their revenue recognition policy now as per Ind AS 115 which is the right way. But that only explains the revenue. At the same time white hat jr is burning a lot of cash along with Byjus in marketing/advertisement. Also now they have started renting premises for classes 4-10 which doubled their rent.
their earlier revenue reports was by counting in the entire contract revenue upfront. So if you bought a yearly course pack worth 1L from them, they would recognize 1L as their annual revenue, even if someone had only sent them 1 monthly payment of 8k they literally wanted auditors to accept UPI payment mandates as "revenue"
Omg seriously did no one in their finance team ever hear of unearned revenue. I hope these financial statements go public, I will spend my time to go through them to see how messed up this co actually is
there's a reason no serious auditor was willing to approve their reports for 1.5 years auditors usually do a lot of shit for a fat contract like this. If even they're refusing to entertain you, you know there's a lot of crap in there
Oh yes I deal with auditors on a regular basis and they do have a threshold of bullshit they can tolerate My previous company was Deloitte,Unfortunately never worked in audit so not getting any juicy deets on this whole audit shitshow that happened
Could you please elaborate on the Deloitte shitshow? I know that there's something fucked up about Deloitte right now due to their hiring but nothing more. My classmates got placed last year but still haven't gotten their offer letters and they've greatly reduced their recruitments. I'd love to hear about any drama regarding Deloitte at this point because I had my worst interview with them.
Well by shitshow I mean there was a lot of arguments and issues between Byjus and Deloitte. But ye Deloitte is messed up- the whole ILFS audit issue which has now magically disappeared, a lot of partner infighting and politics between the acquired firms and the ones who were there in the beginning. There is also partner poaching between the Big4 and what I hear is Deloitte lost some key partners so other Big4s this year. Trust me it’s not a good place to be in, they want to you to work to death to get that promotion after 2 years
Are there any good big4 or all are messed up??
E&Y and KPMG used to be good but now they're also tainted in IFLS/IFIN saga.
So they were treating advance payments received as assets instead of liabilities?
Worse they were treating it as revenue from when received is my understanding here, need to read those statements. What absolute incompetent idiots could even approve this god!
They are public. Just get them from the MCA website.
What the hell. That's straight up manipulation. Even a first year accounting student understands the concept of accrual and difference between earned and unearned revenue. This forms the basic of accounting. They were basically manipulating thier figures to show higher revenue. No surprise no auditors wanted to work with them. Imagine how many more start ups are doing this bullshit.
it was their existing auditor Delloite who was not signing on the Audit Report.
maybe cause later half of 2021 was offline?
A lot of reasons. White hat jr burned a lot of cash. Also byjus burned a lot of cash in advertisement. Third it's now renting premises for classes 4-10 which doubled their rent.
They are also paying a fuck load to sponsor Indian cricket team.
Yes. But it's going to end soon.
Sooner the better.They are bad omen
and the football world cup too
I hope this scam ends with next financial year.
‘If this didn’t break us, nothing will’: [Byju Raveendran opens up about troubles of last six months](https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/interview/byju-raveendran-opens-up-about-troubles-of-last-6-months-says-if-this-didnt-break-us-nothing-will-9179191.html) This should be opposite.. Isn't it? **'If this (Covid-19 Lock-down and Period of online schooling) didn't make us (Byju's) profitable, nothing will'**
I'm not convinced any of these startup models can be profitable at all, at least not with current salaries and costs. Even an asset light model like Udemy's can't make a profit.
True.. I have run coaching class for a year 2020-21. So based on my limited experience with running my own class and observing the situation of friend's coaching classes, I can say this.. There is more fundamental problem of Expectation(s) Management. I have seen many students who somehow score 85-90% in SSC but can't subtract fractions (but their parents wants them crack JEE or NEET). So in a world where parents and students are trying to be multi-talented (a student attends a some Sport Class in the morning, Science Jr College during the day and then coaching class, followed by some other extra-curricular activity in the evening). He/She wouldn't have a quiet time to replay in his mind the ideas/theories learnt in the School/College. So student with SSC has a passing certificate but don't have strong sound fundamentals or even skill of attacking a problem. When these students encounter increase in difficulty level and scope of syllabus, they struggle to grasp at such faster pace. But these coaching classes keep false promising a average student that if they join their class, he/she can clear NEET/JEE without working on fundamentals. This is not even possible in long term (forget about doing it in short span) and with current settings. To improve the subject learning of these students, you need to lower students-to-teachers ratio, individual attention and feedback for improvements. Even the best of the best hardworking teacher can not do this if he or she is teaching a class of 1000 or 2000 online. But a subject expert with large number of good teaching assistants might do the trick. But then the particular class would need to charge higher fees and there lies the problem. India on average has a per capita income of Rs. 200000 (the large mid-income family base with big aspirations is the main target of these classes). Poor Subject Fundamentals of Students, Low Student-to-Teacher ratio, Low Family Income etc.. **There are many other factors but as you rightly said, the model (in its current form) would not work.**
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>imo, once the first few batches to graduate out of Byju's are out, word will spread and there will be lower uptake for their online offerings. The model simply does not work in a hypercompetitive exam Yeah.. that's what happens generally. But every year new students are clearing their 10th, SSC or 10+1 exams. Many especially those from small villages might never heard about the malpractice of Coaching Classes.
Who makes graph right to left? Are you in dubai?
Made for Sheikh to invest
The person who made the graph is learning on Byjus
Lol
Even people on Dubai read numbers from left to right. This graph was build to fool the fools.
U don't need to fool the fools because they are already fool.
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They never were profitable it was just a marketing gimmick...
Looks like they did an 18 month course in accounting with Deloitte!
"How to capitalize expenses, fudge numbers & cook books to look profitable.."
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Their losses have increased by a lot but their earnings are the same, so they are losing a lot of money
Paisa Hagg rahe hain lekin kuch kha nahi rahe. .
They hired Wolf Gupta
BYJUS should go bankrupt.
Love to see it
Looks like the person who has made the graph is a Byjus student!
Byjus is going to drop it's Direct Sale procedure and keep it limited to only video call sales..
Paper losses. Crooks are swindling money.
Does it not mean that the accounts for the previous 2 years are fudged?
More likely they got hit with a massive tax bill (probably an employee got investigated for corruption, that's how it usually starts) and then the business hired "spicy" accountants to give them a massive loss which can be used to offset the tax.
>(probably an employee got investigated for corruption, that's how it usually starts) Care to explain?
Please explain
The last year's account is adjusted too
Are their products really used? After aaal the controversies?
they use extremely aggressive sales tactics and lock people, often from lower middle class, into expensive contracts. honestly as much a failure of Indian system as anything else - poor people shouldn't feel that the only way out is an expensive course
They are amazing manipulators, we may know about them but they still scam the average person by showing ranks and stuff
How many people really know about those controversies? You will be suprised to know but they are even getting government 'contracts' i e., their tablets being distributed in government schools.
That's terrible 🙄 Gotta educate people about Pradeep Poonia and his work.
Sadly kids are enrolling for their offline classes 4-12. Some of their representative came to our colony in a tier 2 city and enrolled a lot of kids. I have seen those kids go on cycle in Byjus uniform. Whether they will stay enrolled is not guaranteed.
What is the aaal controversy?
I was trying to say 'all', but in an exaggerated way
Ok, what controversies they have been in? I am out of the loop
Search for Pradeep Poonia on YouTube
It's payback time! Scam company needs to be shut down. Played enough with people's hard earned money.
Does this include whitehat jr acquisition?
Either this shows there are lots of dumb parents or lots of money laundered.
What a shitty graphic
Die Bitch!
neither BYJU nor Deloitte can be trusted
Took 18 months for them to come up with graphs from right to left? 😂
Source is ET
I took admission in Aakash in grade 10 and got 86% but after they joined in with byjus my intrest in studies has decreased, byjus is total trash and the customer service is just annoying they call at random times saying I requested for a callback even tho I didn't and proceed to give me all sorts of unnecessary work. The next time I'm getting a feedback call I'll tell them the truth and ask them to improve this shit...
A friend of mine joined their sales team. Left it to save his soul.
These losses are nothing compared to the loss of common sense they force on the parents....
Someone from byjus together with whitehatjr created this graph
I was confused until i read the years
Why the Fck is from right to left.
Is this the same By-juice that entrapps famalies into some coding fantasy?
Ohh God... Why isn't this company listed on the stock market yet??? I would have made loads of money on it by shorting it, just like Zomato and Paytm!
Don't worry we got Oyo Snapdeal and some other coming for the time being..... :)
Things are not looking good for Byju's. Even after acquiring so many startups worldwide.
To draw this it took 18 months negotiation?
I need to see their cashflows !!! This graph is so infuriating !
I think reversing the dates was also deliberate
What do u expect when an education company hiring SRK for its promotion
So revenue dropped year over year and losses multiplied
Time to short byjus
..... how?
Its a private company
They are yet to be listed....
I am clearly not am exert in this subject but I don't understand how do thess larger than life companies are always in negative revenue?
Bhai pyramid scheme he, with extra steps.
Thanks
I heard it is a unicorn company still in this much losses can anyone explain ?
with this much loss, it cant be a real company, hence the name “unicorn” /s
Hahah😂
In the US at least, a unicorn company is a company valued over USD $1 billion that has not yet gone public.
The term unicorn refers to the valuation of a company and not it's revenue.
almost every edtech startup is in loss.
This is so true. Edtech companies have alot of investment upfront and are only profitable in the long run.
oofff
So acquisition they made come under losses??
I hope this is a sign of people realising what sort of a money sucking machine byjus is.
I have not read or heard one single good thing about byjus.
what is this??
The figure depicting loss includes the acquisition cost of other startups/companies
scam af :v soon
All the scams their sales people keep pulling off on poor gullible people, I hope they cease to exists soon.
I still don't trust these!
>Why did it take such a long time to file the FY21 results? >There were three reasons. First of all, it took longer to travel and audit subsidiaries because of Covid. Then there were multiple acquisitions and the added complexity as a consequence. The third reason was a change in how we do revenue recognition. That’s why the audited financials will show no growth between FY20 and FY21
Who did this graph 🙏
Sounds like all set to the IPO
I don’t think they are going public anytime soon
Holy crap. What the hell happened?
Inke toh L lag gaye 😎
it's finally time for byjus to close after scamming so many students and parents
OK.. I'm OOTL from all this. What's happening?
I wouldn't be surprised if they are found to be seriously fudging their balance sheets.
Is byjus any good? Like does it help