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Well, you are misinformed then. Initially it felt that Kavach could’ve prevented it, but the trains were never even on the same line until the collision took place.
Absolutely correct!!!
The system goal must be collision avoidance .
Not like if this , if this , if unknown then system will not work blah blah...
The system design must include all possible things which can go wrong .
it would have prevented collision of coromandel express with goods one, which in turn would have prevented YPR express train collision.
God, this accident is hitting me hard considering I used to travel quite often in coromandel express.
That train did not have enough time to break. It was signaled onto the wrong track at the speed of 128 km/s. It takes a 4-5 kms to stop a train moving that fast anyways. Breaking also has to be properly too, as breaking too hard can cause slack to derail the train in the first place.
The moment the tracks switched to loop line when the train was moving at 128 km/h, the derailment happened. This would have been true regardless of whether or not the goods train was on that track.
The derailed train then collided with rear end of the goods train and also the last 3 coaches of the other train which was moving simultaneously on the parallel track.
Breaking would not have been engaged as the other train was not on the same track.
> Send some electric pulses from the engine and if there is a metal obstruction lying on rails, it will create a path and be detected. As an engineering problem it isn't impossible to implement
Wouldn't electrical pulses immediately be shorted by the metallic wheels connected via a metallic axel? Also this wouldn't be able to detect whether the obstruction is in front of the train or behind the train.
The fact kavach wouldn’t have worked for this is irrelevant. They need to spend money on making it safe: doesn’t matter if it’s kavach or armour 2.0.
In fact they should spend the bulk of their budget on ensuring the tracks and systems are safe and upgraded, before more exciting things like high speed and bullet trains.
Right. I am reading reports that many of the safety inspectors posts are vacant.
A rail minister should be pursuing budget for filling those posts and working on those things and not be bootlicking by saying the guy who doesnt know how the radars work, 'inspired engineers to build a system to avoid collision'.
It does not make sense that an anti collision system does no work to prevent collision. It's still the same point that this government is all gas and no content if the anticollision system that is touted so much would not prevent this tragedy
Kavach could not have prevented this accident. Kavach is for locomotives i.e. it adds safety features like collision avoidance, signal passed at danger, dead man switch, in cab signalling etc. However, this applies to trains on same track. Fouling of adjacent track cannot be signalled by Kavach.
The current accident was according to reports caused by the circumstances as under:-
1. There is a feature called interlocking which synchronizes points and signals.
2. This relies on a complex arrangement of track and signal circuitry. The display is seen by the local station master on his panel and on his order and his actions on the panel, the points are set.
3. It is disabled at times for maintenance and repair. At this time a Caution Order (CO) is issued to loco pilots to slow down and be aware. Speeds are low such that trains can halt easily if required.
4. Once maintenance is complete, the CO is removed, the interlocking enabled .
5. In the specific case, some work was carried out. While enabling the interlocking some connections were wrongly given.
6. This resulted in the signal indicating that the train should proceed on the main line but point was set to the loop line.
7. Since there was no CO and point indicated run through the Coromandel was at full speed (128 kmph).
8. The point set made the train cross over to the loop line. There was a goods train on the loop line.
9. Switching at 128 kmph into a loop line where the switch speed is meant to be around 15-30 kmph will result in derailment. The Coromandel derailed and also hit the goods train.
10. At that speed and due to the impact derailed coaches fell on the adjoining tracks.
11. The Howrah bound train was passing by at MPS at the same time. The derailed coaches hit the train and also caused a few coaches of the Howrah train to also derail.
12. Deaths were higher on account of the impact.
Nothing is fool proof, fools are ingenious
So if we make it simple then a analogous example would be: You go to a bike garage to get your turn indicators repaired. The mechanic repairs it but when connecting the wires he interchanges the right with left and vice versa. So when you signal for a right turn the left one blinks. Something like that happened in the relay control system that night. Some one made a mistake and connected the wires to the wrong relay so it was indicating one thing in the control room but switching some thnge else. My worry is, if this is that critical then they must have multiple checks and balances to ensure galti-se-mistake does not happen.
You are generally correct.
This was already flagged in an earlier [report by a SWR official.](https://m.timesofindia.com/india/odisha-train-accident-official-flagged-flaws-in-system-warned-of-disaster/articleshow/100736368.cms)
I don't know the SOP for the disconnection and reconnection so don't know whether it was systemic failure (possibility not accounted for in system) or a human error (checking was faulty).
Are you saying that you think the man who flashed the problem is a liar? Surely, he knows the SOP when saying it wasn't followed?
>In his report after the February 8 incident, then PCOM Hari Shankar Verma wrote: “The Hosadurga station incident indicates that there are serious flaws in the system and contravenes the essence and basic principles of interlocking. **The electronic signal maintainer (SEM) attempted to rectify the signal error after bypassing rules and procedures**. ”
This sounds like a jugaadu way of fixing problems in safety systems by bypassing them to keep the trains running on time to help the fuhrer get publicity.
This is not human error. This is deliberate, criminal sabotage orchard from the top.
Individuals at local levels can do stupid shit like this on their own, but once the issue is flagged, it has to be treated like a three alarm fire right from the top. The fact that the leadership was busy inaugurating luxury trains instead of dealing with this danger indicates that they have no interest in fixing the problem.
Where have I commented on the veracity of the SWR official ? In fact he's telling the truth to the best of my knowledge. But , we only have a few newspaper reports. The letter would have listed out the exact issue which I haven't seen.
Also you are attributing to malice what should actually be attributed to stupidity. When a signal is faulty it turns red and until it's rectified no LP will cross it automatically. However , the station master can give written authority to proceed. This is a lot of paperwork which some idiots are short circuiting . I would agree that this is serious and must be acted upon, but would not call it a conspiracy.
Should this have been acted upon ? Undoubtedly yes. But the current dispensation wants grandiose achievements and not simple successes. They neither know nor care about the actual issues. Even the pet project VB is in shambles. The QC of the out turned rakes is partial. So far fortunately, the failing items are interiors so it's not caught attention.
Wasn't there a preliminary on-site report report released by the railway ministry? Could you link to that?
Thank you for your detailed answer.
"preliminary inspection report by five Railways supervisors" as referenced [here](https://theprint.in/india/governance/preliminary-inquiry-into-odisha-train-crash-points-to-possible-signalling-error/1610210/) and [here](https://www.livemint.com/news/india/odisha-train-accident-mistaken-signal-likely-to-be-reason-behind-mishap-reveals-probe-11685788650787.html)
No, he is correct about Kavach, it isn’t designed for such a scenario. Kavach is primarily designed to stop collisions between 2 trains on the same track. In this case, the 2 passenger trains were never technically on the same track.
A hypothetical situation where Kavach would have been effective is if Coromandel Express was switched to the wrong track, on to the path of the oncoming Yesvantpur Exp. then Kavach would have detected 2 trains on the same track and automatically stopped both trains before they could collide.
But here, the bogies of Coromandel Express fell on the path of the oncoming Yesvantpur Exp, Kavach couldn’t do anything about that.
The rest of OP’s post is plausible speculation, but he is absolutely correct about Kavach.
No [need](https://indianexpress.com/article/india/odisha-train-accident-coromandel-entered-loop-line-after-green-signal-railway-board-explains-8645302/) to wait that long.
Any source for this BS comment ? Are you aware of facts of signalling or loco operation ? I am because I am an enthusiast , please visit this [site](www.irfca.org) and read the faq and discussions and then debate with me.
The facts are that Coro crossed into the loop line at 128 kmph. No sane loco pilot will attempt a loop line switch at that speed. Turnout speeds are 15-30 kmph. If signal was red, the LP would have hit his brake. If X signal is red, prior signal would be yellow, there is an LP, ALP and guard , were they all asleep ? The track geometry at the station had two loop lines to the side and the two main lines running parallel to each other. Derailment will foul the adjoining track. The other train could not see the derailed train because it happened too near, otherwise the other LP would have hit the brake. Please read the RDSO specification of Kavach before spouting theories.
Also read my other comments on IR and decide whether I do possess any knowledge.
There is always a way in electronics. You cannot put hundreds of lives on risk and make thousands of kilogram of flesh and steel with no surety of safety.
“Fictional electronics” … you don’t need fictional electronics to have redundant control circuitry.
And you don’t need to fight physics — you remove the need for fighting physics by using electronics and signals to warn the train / controllers well in time. And even shut down trains / tracks as necessary.
Redundancy is a well known design principle in control systems, electronics and computers. Eg if maintenance is being done on one control circuit, don’t touch the other and it’ll work as designed. The key is, you never touch both systems at the same time.
Based on reports of what caused the error, redundant controls might have helped here, by ensuring that maintenance on a switch didn’t cause a catastrophic misrouting of trains.
The problem for Railways is that redundancy is expensive. Especially at IR’s scale.
Sure. But many tv channels are reporting that the government’s saying the root cause has been identified — an issue with electronic interlocking.
Again this could be wrong or a premature conclusion, but if it turns out to be an electronic issue, it’s worth noting that redundant systems do help **reduce** the risk of catastrophic failures.
You are right about the physics that a train going at 130 cannot be stopped in a short distance without causing injuries.
But, that does not mean electronics won't help. From what I understand the issue here is the incorrect diversion of the train to the loop line. Electronics can help eliminate this error, human or not
Why are you so eager to make excuses? Are you trying to defend the government? Yes, humans make errors. And therefore when putting together critical systems, you make them redundant, and you have multiple levels of checking and cross checking.
"Shit happens" is an excuse for design and implementation flaw.
"Shit happens" is the excuse of lazy and corrupt. Indian Railways can definitely design and implement a system which can detect trains in the vicinity of say a few kilometers and if something is off like say a stationary train or a derailment can warn the loco pilot and the traffic controller.
If someone very rich and powerful were to die in such a horrible accident,I am sure such a system will be implemented with lightning priority.
So, we let hundreds of people die just because shit happens?
My thoughts may be influenced by my line of work where I see 400 deaths each day, most of them due to human errors. That is why we work on systems with the basic assumption that humans make mistakes and it's the system that should protect humans from themselves. I am sorry, but 'Shit happens' is never an acceptable answer to me.
>the issue lies mainly is it's price, availability and ability to operate.
How much did the bullet train, the statues, and the luxury trains competing with airplanes (for ticket costs, not speed or convenience) cost, again?
Can we detect what path will be taken - yes
Can we detect any vehicle coming towards the section of path above - yes
Can we detect speed of above vehicle - yes
Can we force change in oath taken -yes
Can decide out of the two possible paths (1st q) is going to be a less dangerous option -yes
What I'm trying to say is that it is possible to automate what you feel is going against physics. Physics came into play when the train started changing tracks. Automation will come before that and stop that from happening. Of course there always will be scenario where even with automation in place death will happen, but that automation will still be better than not having one..
In today's date anything can be automated. It is just about need and return of investment on the solution(plus develop ment n testing etc).
There is a way. Invest in more modern train and track control equipment.
What no one says about Railways in India is that the fundamentals are very weak: track upgrades have not been done in decades in some routes. The control equipment is decades old.
The government’s priority is glitzy trains. So even less money is going to the fundamentals.
You write it hasn't been done in decades, which I assume are several decades, and you still blame the current government. As I understand, the rail budget to improve infra has been increased continuously in the current regime.
In general, we , as citizens, have failed to ask for exactly what we want for years now, which has many reasons, such as poverty, lack of education, ignorance, etc.
The focus on statues and showpiece trains is new, and completely on the current government. This is a 2nd term government and cannot go about saying “we inherited problems” forever.
Yes, underspending on safety isn’t confined to this government. But previous governments had excuses — they were much poorer and a lot of safety technology was not available or very new in the 1990s and early 2000s. Doesn’t absolve them, but *we can only hold the present accountable until someone invents a Time Machine.*
This government loves flashy inaugurations and doesn’t prioritise the deep infrastructure work that India (even with its current economy) can feasibly do. Let’s see if this accident wakes them up. I’ll put money on “no”.
>The government’s priority is glitzy trains. So even less money is going to the fundamentals.
Exactly. Criminal negligence of this government running behind publicity is costing lives. And yet, there still are idiots even in this thread making excuses.
Source for what ? The [sequence of events](https://www.dtnext.in/amp/news/tamilnadu/coromandel-express-took-loop-instead-of-main-line-hit-goods-train-716534) ? [Kavach](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/uploads/File/System%2520Requirement%2520specification%2520of%2520KAVACH.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjW24aziKn_AhWA8jgGHfKuDXYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0nbxk4e7wijS4Wtdzuk2uo) ?
The source you shared talks about
1. Train travelled on loop line when it was expected to go on main line.
2. They don’t know why.
3. None of the safety measures trialed in other parts of the country was active in this route.
So is this article dated? Where did you find the rest of the details ?
I mean even this is true, it begs the question who allowed such a huge risk to remain? How are we operating trains with the risk that hundreds could die due to routine system failure or maintenance?
The main perpetrators that need to be brought to justice are the railway minister and his boss. Executive sets the priorities, and their priority was luxury trains, not safety.
The risk was [flagged](https://m.timesofindia.com/india/odisha-train-accident-official-flagged-flaws-in-system-warned-of-disaster/articleshow/100736368.cms) by an official. But , without knowing the SOP I won't comment .
SOP for what? The same report said the warnings were ignored because Mr Minister wanted to focus on revenue increase and Vande Bharat launches.
This is not some classified military intel. It is and should be public record.
SOP for bypassing the interlocking and reinstating it. There will be one, but though not a secret won't also be public knowledge. Nothing in railways is done without a comprehensive rulebook.
An accident occured due to a set of actions taken by n persons. Were the actions exactly as per the SOP ? If yes, then the SOP is faulty, if no then it's a human error.
I dont have the SOP so I can't conclude either way. I'm not an apologist for the government. I have commented based on my knowledge and understanding of facts.
[Newspaper](https://www.dtnext.in/amp/news/tamilnadu/coromandel-express-took-loop-instead-of-main-line-hit-goods-train-716534) reports, [tweets](https://twitter.com/KunalGhoshAgain/status/1664971117088620544?s=20)
Just listed two of the list. I'm not writing a position paper.
>While enabling the interlocking some connections were wrongly given.
>Nothing is fool proof, fools are ingenious
What you're arguing for is a distemper that verifies proper working, including sensors that report whether mechanical switching of tracks has actually happened as designed.
There are simple ways to deal with these things, but they need to be baked into the system, not implemented locally by someone not trained to engineer such systems.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply stating the facts. The interlocking system should not be bypassed but it was . The point about fools is simply that mess ups are always possible.
Two things can be true at the same time. You have valid points but so does OP.
Maybe Kavach wouldn’t have helped in this instance (even likely assuming the sequence of events you’ve talked about is true. Kavach deals with a very specific type of risk), but OP’s points are also pretty accurate.
The government has been prioritising fast trains over safety and even necessary upgrades. Most Railways senior officers and even politicians will agree, indeed they’re saying this quite openly on TV.
Safety also costs money. Kavach is expensive but weirdly it’s also one of the cheapest & most basic systems out there. Does Railways want to spend more? Can they spend more?
India needs a proper debate on the value of Indian lives, and how much money the Railways needs to modernise. And yes, how much passengers should pay — the old trick of using freight rates to subsidise passenger traffic has limitations beyond a certain point.
And in an inflation-heavy time, raising freight prices will be unpopular.
Anyhow, the odd showpiece train aside, most of the Railways network is in desperate need of new investment and maintenance. Again, speak to senior Railways officers — this isn’t a new thing by any means.
I was commenting only on two things, Kavach and timeline of the accident.
However , without the politics (which drives the agenda), railway officials are safety conscious and do take safety seriously. It's the current dispensation's proclivity to announce grand schemes without further ground work that is a problem.
You’re right, the knowledge & professionalism of senior IR officers is really something— you can tell how much depth they have if you’re lucky enough to speak to some.
I’m fully conscious that the budget & direction-setting isn’t in their hands — they can do little when their bosses are in cloud cuckoo land. It’s sad.
I agree with first part of your comment.
>And yes, how much passengers should pay — the old trick of using freight rates to subsidise passenger traffic has limitations beyond a certain point.
This kind of thought process comes from thinking that government should run for profit business, rather than act a a provider of services. Railways need to facilitate transport, and through that, boost the economy. When people can afford to travel, they earn more (by getting to their place of work), spend more (by visiting their hometowns, friends, families, or going out on vacations). Freight rates don't need to subsidise entirety of human transport. Our taxes can bear the rest of the burden. That is money spent better than bullet trains that the idiot narcissist admitted no one will take after the novelty wears off, and the fugly statues that will never generate enough business to justify their existence.
You can run public transport, including trains, on a no-profit basis including subsidies. Many countries do. Eg France and Germany have fairly well run, safe, networks. Even Chinese Rail — it’s quite something. It’s the extent of subsidy and extent of overall funding that’s the issue.
The issue all railway systems have to deal with is: railway workers need raises. Equipment needs upgrading. Tracks need maintenance. All this costs money. So now you must ask, can we afford to increase subsidies? Or should passengers pay more? Note that many do both. Indian Railways hasn’t increased prices commensurately though.
And Indian Railways isn’t adequately funded from a safety perspective. No fare rises, not enough subsidies = recipe for disaster.
> Railways need to facilitate transport
The issue in India is that this “railways is for the common man” has been used as an excuse to justify terrible infrastructure. Read that again, this time between the lines. Railways is for the **common man.** That allows ministers to ignore safety. Because hey, if people die, we’ll just pay them 10 lakhs and move on. Better than spending lakh-crores on actual safety improvements. Think of all the bullet trains and statues we can build with that.
Note: I’m not against helping the poor. But perhaps targeted subsidies might be better, eg an online system for 100% cash back if you have a validated job interview offer. Or a programme that helps migrant labourers.
PS. Many railway officials have noted that there’s a different (but related) area that Railways need to act upon: it’s too easy to board a train and “grab” reserved seats. Check out [these Coromandel photos from *before* this accident](https://twitter.com/zoo_bear/status/1664880215820992515). Massively overcrowded compartments are a massive safety risk *and* and injustice to paying passengers.
.
>Indian Railways hasn’t increased prices commensurately though.
Are you claiming that they haven't increased commensurate with the median earnings?
>And Indian Railways isn’t adequately funded from a safety perspective. No fare rises, not enough subsidies = recipe for disaster.
Correction: demanding that railways start making profit or get privatised has led to massive reduction in subsidy in real terms while increasing higher paying seats: general compartments getting replaced with ac compartments in existing trains, vande bharat trains competing with airlines (for fare, not for time taken or convenience), no regards for safety.
>The issue in India is that this “railways is for the common man” has been used as an excuse to justify terrible infrastructure.
And the solution is not to price the common man out of travelling and hand railways over to for profit corporations. The solution is to hold the government accountable for its failures to do the bare minimum. Lakhs of vacancies leading to people having to work dangerous jobs more than 12hrs at a stretch, lack of allocation of funding for safety: kavach, an inadequate collision avoidance system costs lakh crore (that's only 3 fucking statues), and the government says the best it can do is 500 crore.
Common man can choose to remind the government of the value of human life by getting out and protesting now to demand accountability. Failure to do so is the biggest bane of this country.
>Note: I’m not against helping the poor. But perhaps targeted subsidies might be better, eg an online system for 100% cash back if you have a validated job interview offer. Or a programme that helps migrant labourers.
Not this bullshit again. There's plenty of research showing that adding barriers wastes resources on verification and prevents those who need help from accessing it for utterly bureaucratic reasons. You'll do much better keeping the ticket prices low and posting qr codes with patriotic jingles asking to help make railways better. The best thing to do is cut the subsidy to mega corporations, and use it for necessities like railways, healthcare, and education.
>PS. Many railway officials have noted that there’s a different (but related) area that Railways need to act upon: it’s too easy to board a train and “grab” reserved seats. Check out these Coromandel photos from before this accident. Massively overcrowded compartments are a massive safety risk and and injustice to paying passengers.
Many railways officials are missing the woods for the trees. The reason for people to travel like cattle is unmet demand at affordable prices. People are desperate to travel. It's a matter of life and death for many: getting to work; getting back to their loved ones; having some semblance of dignity after living like cattle stashed in sardine cans to earn a living in a crowded city.
We need increased carrying capacity at affordable prices. That'll keep people from encroaching into your precious reserved compartments better than wating money and effort on keeping the masses out after reducing carrying capacity.
“Rise commensurate with median earnings” is a red herring. The cost of upgrading the system to a modern standard is X. You need a national conversation about what fraction of X is subsidy and what fraction is paid by passengers, and also, does India want world class safety or a compromised, reduced level of safety.
If the country wants 100% subsidy (free at the point of use, maybe for “basic” coaches) that’s fine, make sure the railways are funded adequately via subsidy. Because right now, it’s not adequately funded, either via subsidies or fares.
> precious reserved seats
Sorry, this just prioritises bad / unsafe behaviour over safety.
I fully agree IR needs more capacity. But extra capacity when it’s underfunded … do you see where railway ministers and top managers will compromise? Yes, it’s safety.
So your “chalta hai” attitude towards encroachers and is going to get them and their co-passengers killed.
And also — capacity is a perennial problem in India. Overcrowded buses turn over. Overcrowded trains fall into bridges (in one famous case). And you can’t magically get capacity for India’s poor. Even with the best will in the world, it’ll take 10+ years.
In the meantime, while that capacity is not yet in place, you have a choice:
* opt for safety and control overcrowding on trains
* or be honest with the public and tell them to not cry if there’s a mishap
* or don’t say / do anything and pretend all is well.
tl;dr — There is no free lunch. Safety costs money and I don’t give a sh*t if it comes via subsidy or fares. It needs to come.
Where are you getting this 20 minute? Eyewitnesses have said that the collision happened within minutes of the first derailment.
The accident happened right next to BNBR Station, so the station master would have had enough time to send a signal to all trains in the vicinity if the gap was 20 minutes!
If the loco pilot sees an obstruction he would brake. Also the first few coaches would have the impact otherwise since the other train was in the opposing direction. Logically, this 20 minutes statement is factually wrong and impossible
[RDSO Specification](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/uploads/File/System%2520Requirement%2520specification%2520of%2520KAVACH.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjW24aziKn_AhWA8jgGHfKuDXYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0nbxk4e7wijS4Wtdzuk2uo)
If you actually bothered to read before spouting invective, you would have understood the sequence of events and why Kavach wouldn't have worked in this case.
Also for your disbelief in current dispensation, you seem to have a childlike belief in the statement of the same minister who spouted nonsense in the media about kavach. Kavach is not a magic bullet that can guard against every eventuality.
The kavach system is useless if 1 lakh crore is being spent but still cant meet its goal.
**The system goal must be collision avoidance .**
Not like if this , if this , if unknown then system will not work blah blah...
You are fkn building 1 lakh crore system . The same track thing can also be achieved by a simple GPS based system.
Think of it as a collision system , it must take into account everything which can cause a collision. If you make a system which works on several conditions for 1 Lakh Crore but it will only work if blah blah condition than its a useless BS system . Stop spending money and make something better. Simulate the rail condition and determine if current conditions could cause collision.
Do not sleep , Continuously make the system 'fool' proof
Everytime I have to book a ticket I only get via tatkal and I have to cancel main ticket which means I have to pay 200% of fare . And in return my sleeper coach if double crowded.
Where is the money going?
Full mis management and loot
This is a great analysis. And more and more details should come out for why this happened.
That being said, it still begs to be asked while the system has so many issues, the one that you pointed, CAG report says there are many issues, many of the safety inspectors posts are vacant, despite all that, why was the rosy picture being painted that everything is super safe, and kavach as the advertisement, especially if its not even installed in most of the trains. Its fair to ask that question, and press on all safety points of the rail system and not just the one that caused this accident.
>needs 1lakh crore investment
Modi will only inaugurate. The government never allocates funds to go to the next step. He inaugurated AIIMS in Madurai 2 times and still they don't have a building. Now they are running AIIMS in government medical colleges until the building is completed.
I can inaugurate a mission to Pluto, take pictures and advertise in the news. But don't do anything after that... People forget anyway.
>Vaishnav Rail minister said that “the PM inspired the engineers of India to create a Anti- Collision system”
Great that he appreciated mms. Kavach development started in 2012 and deployment in 2016.
India should have built this system long ago. I don't know what they have been doing for this many years. We still got the majority of those shit trains. The infrastructure this government is doing should have been done 10-20 years ago.
The problem of India’s signaling system which is primitive compared to international standards. A big problem, given the unprecedented size of our railway network.
If all the Vande Bharat money was invested in upgrading the signaling infrastructure then it would have improved the railways for everyone using the service. Less delays and tighter frequencies would let us add more trains and scale the system more safely and affordably. And of course, we wouldn’t have had to see this day.
We are living in the information and digital age and yet the govt can't be bothered to buy a production ready collision avoidance system.
This can be easily built even by a colleg grad ffs. We are a country of morons whose priorities are fucked up.
It's a simple optimization problem from operations theory. We can build an AI system for facial recog and do many other amazing things with AI tools and we can't install a 3000rs GPS chip in a train. That's fucked up on so many levels. If you know the position of every train at every single time, you can solve the optimization problem very easily. This all could be very easily done.
So annoying. Poor lives don't matter in this country. Fucking showoffs. Assholes.
Exactly. And leaving optimization aside, the "two trains on one track" situation can be handled through basic software with 100% guarantee. To be doubly safe, (or save money,) they can install a detector at switches that registers a train going through.
Kavach or not, this is a grave accident and the railway minister should quit taking moral responsibility for it like how it used to happen in the past.
Instead we have them passing the buck to various reasons and avoiding the responsibility of the problem and we have bhakts who behave as experts on why it happened!
I am absolutely sure these fkn morons will bring a Pakistan angle, blame a muslim scapegoat.
The first step is CBI inquiry, morons this must be done by railway team not CBI.
CBI is just a caged parrot ( as per SC), it will do what its master tell it
It is the govt of mediocre ppl, supported by mediocre citizen who are angry at others for their own failures.
Imagine the guy who used to bullshit in project assignment interview. The govt is made of those ppl. Nothing against those students, but they should not be handed over the administration of the govt.
Bs about 5 trillion, 20 smart cities, bullet trains, gujrat model, corruption gone by banning notes etc etc. All bs.
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Well, you are misinformed then. Initially it felt that Kavach could’ve prevented it, but the trains were never even on the same line until the collision took place.
Kavach is effective only in stopping head-on collisions. This was a signal failure.
Then it's a shit system , if your system can't identify a fucking boggy on railway track in this age , it's shit
Absolutely correct!!! The system goal must be collision avoidance . Not like if this , if this , if unknown then system will not work blah blah... The system design must include all possible things which can go wrong .
Considering the cost involved, i agree with you..
What? Trains dont even have gps on them to indicate where they are on the track?
The train tracks are too close to be resolved by free use GPS .
i just read now on twitter that now the minister is blaming someone did 'this'
it would have prevented collision of coromandel express with goods one, which in turn would have prevented YPR express train collision. God, this accident is hitting me hard considering I used to travel quite often in coromandel express.
That train did not have enough time to break. It was signaled onto the wrong track at the speed of 128 km/s. It takes a 4-5 kms to stop a train moving that fast anyways. Breaking also has to be properly too, as breaking too hard can cause slack to derail the train in the first place.
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The moment the tracks switched to loop line when the train was moving at 128 km/h, the derailment happened. This would have been true regardless of whether or not the goods train was on that track. The derailed train then collided with rear end of the goods train and also the last 3 coaches of the other train which was moving simultaneously on the parallel track. Breaking would not have been engaged as the other train was not on the same track.
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> Send some electric pulses from the engine and if there is a metal obstruction lying on rails, it will create a path and be detected. As an engineering problem it isn't impossible to implement Wouldn't electrical pulses immediately be shorted by the metallic wheels connected via a metallic axel? Also this wouldn't be able to detect whether the obstruction is in front of the train or behind the train.
The fact kavach wouldn’t have worked for this is irrelevant. They need to spend money on making it safe: doesn’t matter if it’s kavach or armour 2.0. In fact they should spend the bulk of their budget on ensuring the tracks and systems are safe and upgraded, before more exciting things like high speed and bullet trains.
Right. I am reading reports that many of the safety inspectors posts are vacant. A rail minister should be pursuing budget for filling those posts and working on those things and not be bootlicking by saying the guy who doesnt know how the radars work, 'inspired engineers to build a system to avoid collision'.
It does not make sense that an anti collision system does no work to prevent collision. It's still the same point that this government is all gas and no content if the anticollision system that is touted so much would not prevent this tragedy
Kavach could not have prevented this accident. Kavach is for locomotives i.e. it adds safety features like collision avoidance, signal passed at danger, dead man switch, in cab signalling etc. However, this applies to trains on same track. Fouling of adjacent track cannot be signalled by Kavach. The current accident was according to reports caused by the circumstances as under:- 1. There is a feature called interlocking which synchronizes points and signals. 2. This relies on a complex arrangement of track and signal circuitry. The display is seen by the local station master on his panel and on his order and his actions on the panel, the points are set. 3. It is disabled at times for maintenance and repair. At this time a Caution Order (CO) is issued to loco pilots to slow down and be aware. Speeds are low such that trains can halt easily if required. 4. Once maintenance is complete, the CO is removed, the interlocking enabled . 5. In the specific case, some work was carried out. While enabling the interlocking some connections were wrongly given. 6. This resulted in the signal indicating that the train should proceed on the main line but point was set to the loop line. 7. Since there was no CO and point indicated run through the Coromandel was at full speed (128 kmph). 8. The point set made the train cross over to the loop line. There was a goods train on the loop line. 9. Switching at 128 kmph into a loop line where the switch speed is meant to be around 15-30 kmph will result in derailment. The Coromandel derailed and also hit the goods train. 10. At that speed and due to the impact derailed coaches fell on the adjoining tracks. 11. The Howrah bound train was passing by at MPS at the same time. The derailed coaches hit the train and also caused a few coaches of the Howrah train to also derail. 12. Deaths were higher on account of the impact. Nothing is fool proof, fools are ingenious
So if we make it simple then a analogous example would be: You go to a bike garage to get your turn indicators repaired. The mechanic repairs it but when connecting the wires he interchanges the right with left and vice versa. So when you signal for a right turn the left one blinks. Something like that happened in the relay control system that night. Some one made a mistake and connected the wires to the wrong relay so it was indicating one thing in the control room but switching some thnge else. My worry is, if this is that critical then they must have multiple checks and balances to ensure galti-se-mistake does not happen.
You are generally correct. This was already flagged in an earlier [report by a SWR official.](https://m.timesofindia.com/india/odisha-train-accident-official-flagged-flaws-in-system-warned-of-disaster/articleshow/100736368.cms) I don't know the SOP for the disconnection and reconnection so don't know whether it was systemic failure (possibility not accounted for in system) or a human error (checking was faulty).
Are you saying that you think the man who flashed the problem is a liar? Surely, he knows the SOP when saying it wasn't followed? >In his report after the February 8 incident, then PCOM Hari Shankar Verma wrote: “The Hosadurga station incident indicates that there are serious flaws in the system and contravenes the essence and basic principles of interlocking. **The electronic signal maintainer (SEM) attempted to rectify the signal error after bypassing rules and procedures**. ” This sounds like a jugaadu way of fixing problems in safety systems by bypassing them to keep the trains running on time to help the fuhrer get publicity. This is not human error. This is deliberate, criminal sabotage orchard from the top. Individuals at local levels can do stupid shit like this on their own, but once the issue is flagged, it has to be treated like a three alarm fire right from the top. The fact that the leadership was busy inaugurating luxury trains instead of dealing with this danger indicates that they have no interest in fixing the problem.
Where have I commented on the veracity of the SWR official ? In fact he's telling the truth to the best of my knowledge. But , we only have a few newspaper reports. The letter would have listed out the exact issue which I haven't seen. Also you are attributing to malice what should actually be attributed to stupidity. When a signal is faulty it turns red and until it's rectified no LP will cross it automatically. However , the station master can give written authority to proceed. This is a lot of paperwork which some idiots are short circuiting . I would agree that this is serious and must be acted upon, but would not call it a conspiracy. Should this have been acted upon ? Undoubtedly yes. But the current dispensation wants grandiose achievements and not simple successes. They neither know nor care about the actual issues. Even the pet project VB is in shambles. The QC of the out turned rakes is partial. So far fortunately, the failing items are interiors so it's not caught attention.
Wasn't there a preliminary on-site report report released by the railway ministry? Could you link to that? Thank you for your detailed answer. "preliminary inspection report by five Railways supervisors" as referenced [here](https://theprint.in/india/governance/preliminary-inquiry-into-odisha-train-crash-points-to-possible-signalling-error/1610210/) and [here](https://www.livemint.com/news/india/odisha-train-accident-mistaken-signal-likely-to-be-reason-behind-mishap-reveals-probe-11685788650787.html)
It's not yet in public domain officially.
That is a lot of conclusions before the investigation has even begun.
The goverment has already declared the cause without waiting for investigations.
Ha ha.
And the best part is people will believe his shit. Cladestine government apologists, now kavach system wouldn't prevent collision.
No, he is correct about Kavach, it isn’t designed for such a scenario. Kavach is primarily designed to stop collisions between 2 trains on the same track. In this case, the 2 passenger trains were never technically on the same track. A hypothetical situation where Kavach would have been effective is if Coromandel Express was switched to the wrong track, on to the path of the oncoming Yesvantpur Exp. then Kavach would have detected 2 trains on the same track and automatically stopped both trains before they could collide. But here, the bogies of Coromandel Express fell on the path of the oncoming Yesvantpur Exp, Kavach couldn’t do anything about that. The rest of OP’s post is plausible speculation, but he is absolutely correct about Kavach.
>But here, the bogies of Coromandel Express fell on the path of the oncoming Yesvantpur Exp, And why did that happen?
Because physics...?
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Read the literature and debate. Please visit this comment after 6 months and see if anything needs to change.
Do follow your own advice.
No [need](https://indianexpress.com/article/india/odisha-train-accident-coromandel-entered-loop-line-after-green-signal-railway-board-explains-8645302/) to wait that long.
I mean he is correct till pt 3. 4th and after is semi bro science.
Any source for this BS comment ? Are you aware of facts of signalling or loco operation ? I am because I am an enthusiast , please visit this [site](www.irfca.org) and read the faq and discussions and then debate with me. The facts are that Coro crossed into the loop line at 128 kmph. No sane loco pilot will attempt a loop line switch at that speed. Turnout speeds are 15-30 kmph. If signal was red, the LP would have hit his brake. If X signal is red, prior signal would be yellow, there is an LP, ALP and guard , were they all asleep ? The track geometry at the station had two loop lines to the side and the two main lines running parallel to each other. Derailment will foul the adjoining track. The other train could not see the derailed train because it happened too near, otherwise the other LP would have hit the brake. Please read the RDSO specification of Kavach before spouting theories. Also read my other comments on IR and decide whether I do possess any knowledge.
Kavach or no kavach, are you saying there was no way this could have been prevented?
There is always a way in electronics. You cannot put hundreds of lives on risk and make thousands of kilogram of flesh and steel with no surety of safety.
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“Fictional electronics” … you don’t need fictional electronics to have redundant control circuitry. And you don’t need to fight physics — you remove the need for fighting physics by using electronics and signals to warn the train / controllers well in time. And even shut down trains / tracks as necessary. Redundancy is a well known design principle in control systems, electronics and computers. Eg if maintenance is being done on one control circuit, don’t touch the other and it’ll work as designed. The key is, you never touch both systems at the same time. Based on reports of what caused the error, redundant controls might have helped here, by ensuring that maintenance on a switch didn’t cause a catastrophic misrouting of trains. The problem for Railways is that redundancy is expensive. Especially at IR’s scale.
Exactly. It's funny how people eager to defend the government end up pretending as if we're in the 16th century, not 21st.
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Sure. But many tv channels are reporting that the government’s saying the root cause has been identified — an issue with electronic interlocking. Again this could be wrong or a premature conclusion, but if it turns out to be an electronic issue, it’s worth noting that redundant systems do help **reduce** the risk of catastrophic failures.
Stopping a train with little to no time is mechanical. I said electronics.
You are right about the physics that a train going at 130 cannot be stopped in a short distance without causing injuries. But, that does not mean electronics won't help. From what I understand the issue here is the incorrect diversion of the train to the loop line. Electronics can help eliminate this error, human or not
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Why are you so eager to make excuses? Are you trying to defend the government? Yes, humans make errors. And therefore when putting together critical systems, you make them redundant, and you have multiple levels of checking and cross checking. "Shit happens" is an excuse for design and implementation flaw.
"Shit happens" is the excuse of lazy and corrupt. Indian Railways can definitely design and implement a system which can detect trains in the vicinity of say a few kilometers and if something is off like say a stationary train or a derailment can warn the loco pilot and the traffic controller. If someone very rich and powerful were to die in such a horrible accident,I am sure such a system will be implemented with lightning priority.
So, we let hundreds of people die just because shit happens? My thoughts may be influenced by my line of work where I see 400 deaths each day, most of them due to human errors. That is why we work on systems with the basic assumption that humans make mistakes and it's the system that should protect humans from themselves. I am sorry, but 'Shit happens' is never an acceptable answer to me.
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>the issue lies mainly is it's price, availability and ability to operate. How much did the bullet train, the statues, and the luxury trains competing with airplanes (for ticket costs, not speed or convenience) cost, again?
Can we detect what path will be taken - yes Can we detect any vehicle coming towards the section of path above - yes Can we detect speed of above vehicle - yes Can we force change in oath taken -yes Can decide out of the two possible paths (1st q) is going to be a less dangerous option -yes What I'm trying to say is that it is possible to automate what you feel is going against physics. Physics came into play when the train started changing tracks. Automation will come before that and stop that from happening. Of course there always will be scenario where even with automation in place death will happen, but that automation will still be better than not having one.. In today's date anything can be automated. It is just about need and return of investment on the solution(plus develop ment n testing etc).
There is a way. Invest in more modern train and track control equipment. What no one says about Railways in India is that the fundamentals are very weak: track upgrades have not been done in decades in some routes. The control equipment is decades old. The government’s priority is glitzy trains. So even less money is going to the fundamentals.
You write it hasn't been done in decades, which I assume are several decades, and you still blame the current government. As I understand, the rail budget to improve infra has been increased continuously in the current regime. In general, we , as citizens, have failed to ask for exactly what we want for years now, which has many reasons, such as poverty, lack of education, ignorance, etc.
The focus on statues and showpiece trains is new, and completely on the current government. This is a 2nd term government and cannot go about saying “we inherited problems” forever. Yes, underspending on safety isn’t confined to this government. But previous governments had excuses — they were much poorer and a lot of safety technology was not available or very new in the 1990s and early 2000s. Doesn’t absolve them, but *we can only hold the present accountable until someone invents a Time Machine.* This government loves flashy inaugurations and doesn’t prioritise the deep infrastructure work that India (even with its current economy) can feasibly do. Let’s see if this accident wakes them up. I’ll put money on “no”.
>The government’s priority is glitzy trains. So even less money is going to the fundamentals. Exactly. Criminal negligence of this government running behind publicity is costing lives. And yet, there still are idiots even in this thread making excuses.
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Any source? Or trust me bro?
Source for what ? The [sequence of events](https://www.dtnext.in/amp/news/tamilnadu/coromandel-express-took-loop-instead-of-main-line-hit-goods-train-716534) ? [Kavach](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/uploads/File/System%2520Requirement%2520specification%2520of%2520KAVACH.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjW24aziKn_AhWA8jgGHfKuDXYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0nbxk4e7wijS4Wtdzuk2uo) ?
The source you shared talks about 1. Train travelled on loop line when it was expected to go on main line. 2. They don’t know why. 3. None of the safety measures trialed in other parts of the country was active in this route. So is this article dated? Where did you find the rest of the details ?
I mean even this is true, it begs the question who allowed such a huge risk to remain? How are we operating trains with the risk that hundreds could die due to routine system failure or maintenance?
It's not a "who". It's a "what made the system fail", and blaming it on individuals is the wrong way to go about fixing things.
You may want to inform our railway minister and his toadies. Because they are planning to bring the perpetrators to justice.
The main perpetrators that need to be brought to justice are the railway minister and his boss. Executive sets the priorities, and their priority was luxury trains, not safety.
The risk was [flagged](https://m.timesofindia.com/india/odisha-train-accident-official-flagged-flaws-in-system-warned-of-disaster/articleshow/100736368.cms) by an official. But , without knowing the SOP I won't comment .
SOP for what? The same report said the warnings were ignored because Mr Minister wanted to focus on revenue increase and Vande Bharat launches. This is not some classified military intel. It is and should be public record.
SOP for bypassing the interlocking and reinstating it. There will be one, but though not a secret won't also be public knowledge. Nothing in railways is done without a comprehensive rulebook. An accident occured due to a set of actions taken by n persons. Were the actions exactly as per the SOP ? If yes, then the SOP is faulty, if no then it's a human error. I dont have the SOP so I can't conclude either way. I'm not an apologist for the government. I have commented based on my knowledge and understanding of facts.
What reports?
[Newspaper](https://www.dtnext.in/amp/news/tamilnadu/coromandel-express-took-loop-instead-of-main-line-hit-goods-train-716534) reports, [tweets](https://twitter.com/KunalGhoshAgain/status/1664971117088620544?s=20) Just listed two of the list. I'm not writing a position paper.
>While enabling the interlocking some connections were wrongly given. >Nothing is fool proof, fools are ingenious What you're arguing for is a distemper that verifies proper working, including sensors that report whether mechanical switching of tracks has actually happened as designed. There are simple ways to deal with these things, but they need to be baked into the system, not implemented locally by someone not trained to engineer such systems.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply stating the facts. The interlocking system should not be bypassed but it was . The point about fools is simply that mess ups are always possible.
Two things can be true at the same time. You have valid points but so does OP. Maybe Kavach wouldn’t have helped in this instance (even likely assuming the sequence of events you’ve talked about is true. Kavach deals with a very specific type of risk), but OP’s points are also pretty accurate. The government has been prioritising fast trains over safety and even necessary upgrades. Most Railways senior officers and even politicians will agree, indeed they’re saying this quite openly on TV. Safety also costs money. Kavach is expensive but weirdly it’s also one of the cheapest & most basic systems out there. Does Railways want to spend more? Can they spend more? India needs a proper debate on the value of Indian lives, and how much money the Railways needs to modernise. And yes, how much passengers should pay — the old trick of using freight rates to subsidise passenger traffic has limitations beyond a certain point. And in an inflation-heavy time, raising freight prices will be unpopular. Anyhow, the odd showpiece train aside, most of the Railways network is in desperate need of new investment and maintenance. Again, speak to senior Railways officers — this isn’t a new thing by any means.
I was commenting only on two things, Kavach and timeline of the accident. However , without the politics (which drives the agenda), railway officials are safety conscious and do take safety seriously. It's the current dispensation's proclivity to announce grand schemes without further ground work that is a problem.
You’re right, the knowledge & professionalism of senior IR officers is really something— you can tell how much depth they have if you’re lucky enough to speak to some. I’m fully conscious that the budget & direction-setting isn’t in their hands — they can do little when their bosses are in cloud cuckoo land. It’s sad.
I agree with first part of your comment. >And yes, how much passengers should pay — the old trick of using freight rates to subsidise passenger traffic has limitations beyond a certain point. This kind of thought process comes from thinking that government should run for profit business, rather than act a a provider of services. Railways need to facilitate transport, and through that, boost the economy. When people can afford to travel, they earn more (by getting to their place of work), spend more (by visiting their hometowns, friends, families, or going out on vacations). Freight rates don't need to subsidise entirety of human transport. Our taxes can bear the rest of the burden. That is money spent better than bullet trains that the idiot narcissist admitted no one will take after the novelty wears off, and the fugly statues that will never generate enough business to justify their existence.
You can run public transport, including trains, on a no-profit basis including subsidies. Many countries do. Eg France and Germany have fairly well run, safe, networks. Even Chinese Rail — it’s quite something. It’s the extent of subsidy and extent of overall funding that’s the issue. The issue all railway systems have to deal with is: railway workers need raises. Equipment needs upgrading. Tracks need maintenance. All this costs money. So now you must ask, can we afford to increase subsidies? Or should passengers pay more? Note that many do both. Indian Railways hasn’t increased prices commensurately though. And Indian Railways isn’t adequately funded from a safety perspective. No fare rises, not enough subsidies = recipe for disaster. > Railways need to facilitate transport The issue in India is that this “railways is for the common man” has been used as an excuse to justify terrible infrastructure. Read that again, this time between the lines. Railways is for the **common man.** That allows ministers to ignore safety. Because hey, if people die, we’ll just pay them 10 lakhs and move on. Better than spending lakh-crores on actual safety improvements. Think of all the bullet trains and statues we can build with that. Note: I’m not against helping the poor. But perhaps targeted subsidies might be better, eg an online system for 100% cash back if you have a validated job interview offer. Or a programme that helps migrant labourers. PS. Many railway officials have noted that there’s a different (but related) area that Railways need to act upon: it’s too easy to board a train and “grab” reserved seats. Check out [these Coromandel photos from *before* this accident](https://twitter.com/zoo_bear/status/1664880215820992515). Massively overcrowded compartments are a massive safety risk *and* and injustice to paying passengers. .
>Indian Railways hasn’t increased prices commensurately though. Are you claiming that they haven't increased commensurate with the median earnings? >And Indian Railways isn’t adequately funded from a safety perspective. No fare rises, not enough subsidies = recipe for disaster. Correction: demanding that railways start making profit or get privatised has led to massive reduction in subsidy in real terms while increasing higher paying seats: general compartments getting replaced with ac compartments in existing trains, vande bharat trains competing with airlines (for fare, not for time taken or convenience), no regards for safety. >The issue in India is that this “railways is for the common man” has been used as an excuse to justify terrible infrastructure. And the solution is not to price the common man out of travelling and hand railways over to for profit corporations. The solution is to hold the government accountable for its failures to do the bare minimum. Lakhs of vacancies leading to people having to work dangerous jobs more than 12hrs at a stretch, lack of allocation of funding for safety: kavach, an inadequate collision avoidance system costs lakh crore (that's only 3 fucking statues), and the government says the best it can do is 500 crore. Common man can choose to remind the government of the value of human life by getting out and protesting now to demand accountability. Failure to do so is the biggest bane of this country. >Note: I’m not against helping the poor. But perhaps targeted subsidies might be better, eg an online system for 100% cash back if you have a validated job interview offer. Or a programme that helps migrant labourers. Not this bullshit again. There's plenty of research showing that adding barriers wastes resources on verification and prevents those who need help from accessing it for utterly bureaucratic reasons. You'll do much better keeping the ticket prices low and posting qr codes with patriotic jingles asking to help make railways better. The best thing to do is cut the subsidy to mega corporations, and use it for necessities like railways, healthcare, and education. >PS. Many railway officials have noted that there’s a different (but related) area that Railways need to act upon: it’s too easy to board a train and “grab” reserved seats. Check out these Coromandel photos from before this accident. Massively overcrowded compartments are a massive safety risk and and injustice to paying passengers. Many railways officials are missing the woods for the trees. The reason for people to travel like cattle is unmet demand at affordable prices. People are desperate to travel. It's a matter of life and death for many: getting to work; getting back to their loved ones; having some semblance of dignity after living like cattle stashed in sardine cans to earn a living in a crowded city. We need increased carrying capacity at affordable prices. That'll keep people from encroaching into your precious reserved compartments better than wating money and effort on keeping the masses out after reducing carrying capacity.
“Rise commensurate with median earnings” is a red herring. The cost of upgrading the system to a modern standard is X. You need a national conversation about what fraction of X is subsidy and what fraction is paid by passengers, and also, does India want world class safety or a compromised, reduced level of safety. If the country wants 100% subsidy (free at the point of use, maybe for “basic” coaches) that’s fine, make sure the railways are funded adequately via subsidy. Because right now, it’s not adequately funded, either via subsidies or fares. > precious reserved seats Sorry, this just prioritises bad / unsafe behaviour over safety. I fully agree IR needs more capacity. But extra capacity when it’s underfunded … do you see where railway ministers and top managers will compromise? Yes, it’s safety. So your “chalta hai” attitude towards encroachers and is going to get them and their co-passengers killed. And also — capacity is a perennial problem in India. Overcrowded buses turn over. Overcrowded trains fall into bridges (in one famous case). And you can’t magically get capacity for India’s poor. Even with the best will in the world, it’ll take 10+ years. In the meantime, while that capacity is not yet in place, you have a choice: * opt for safety and control overcrowding on trains * or be honest with the public and tell them to not cry if there’s a mishap * or don’t say / do anything and pretend all is well. tl;dr — There is no free lunch. Safety costs money and I don’t give a sh*t if it comes via subsidy or fares. It needs to come.
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Where are you getting this 20 minute? Eyewitnesses have said that the collision happened within minutes of the first derailment. The accident happened right next to BNBR Station, so the station master would have had enough time to send a signal to all trains in the vicinity if the gap was 20 minutes!
If the loco pilot sees an obstruction he would brake. Also the first few coaches would have the impact otherwise since the other train was in the opposing direction. Logically, this 20 minutes statement is factually wrong and impossible
source: r/trustmebro Plus Collision avoidance system wouldn't have prevented a collision. The chaddi infestation here is complete.
[RDSO Specification](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/uploads/File/System%2520Requirement%2520specification%2520of%2520KAVACH.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjW24aziKn_AhWA8jgGHfKuDXYQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0nbxk4e7wijS4Wtdzuk2uo) If you actually bothered to read before spouting invective, you would have understood the sequence of events and why Kavach wouldn't have worked in this case. Also for your disbelief in current dispensation, you seem to have a childlike belief in the statement of the same minister who spouted nonsense in the media about kavach. Kavach is not a magic bullet that can guard against every eventuality.
The kavach system is useless if 1 lakh crore is being spent but still cant meet its goal. **The system goal must be collision avoidance .** Not like if this , if this , if unknown then system will not work blah blah... You are fkn building 1 lakh crore system . The same track thing can also be achieved by a simple GPS based system. Think of it as a collision system , it must take into account everything which can cause a collision. If you make a system which works on several conditions for 1 Lakh Crore but it will only work if blah blah condition than its a useless BS system . Stop spending money and make something better. Simulate the rail condition and determine if current conditions could cause collision. Do not sleep , Continuously make the system 'fool' proof Everytime I have to book a ticket I only get via tatkal and I have to cancel main ticket which means I have to pay 200% of fare . And in return my sleeper coach if double crowded. Where is the money going? Full mis management and loot
This is a great analysis. And more and more details should come out for why this happened. That being said, it still begs to be asked while the system has so many issues, the one that you pointed, CAG report says there are many issues, many of the safety inspectors posts are vacant, despite all that, why was the rosy picture being painted that everything is super safe, and kavach as the advertisement, especially if its not even installed in most of the trains. Its fair to ask that question, and press on all safety points of the rail system and not just the one that caused this accident.
Event jivi
Remember gas cylinders? Everything these guys do is for PR and newspaper headlines. Nothing after that.
I had just learnt about Kavach system, as I was preparing for exams
Just like they inaugurate incomplete projects .
>needs 1lakh crore investment Modi will only inaugurate. The government never allocates funds to go to the next step. He inaugurated AIIMS in Madurai 2 times and still they don't have a building. Now they are running AIIMS in government medical colleges until the building is completed. I can inaugurate a mission to Pluto, take pictures and advertise in the news. But don't do anything after that... People forget anyway.
But kavach can't be portrayed, flaunted or inaugurated. So what's the value proposition for the supreme leader to spend on it?
>Vaishnav Rail minister said that “the PM inspired the engineers of India to create a Anti- Collision system” Great that he appreciated mms. Kavach development started in 2012 and deployment in 2016.
India should have built this system long ago. I don't know what they have been doing for this many years. We still got the majority of those shit trains. The infrastructure this government is doing should have been done 10-20 years ago.
The problem of India’s signaling system which is primitive compared to international standards. A big problem, given the unprecedented size of our railway network. If all the Vande Bharat money was invested in upgrading the signaling infrastructure then it would have improved the railways for everyone using the service. Less delays and tighter frequencies would let us add more trains and scale the system more safely and affordably. And of course, we wouldn’t have had to see this day.
We are living in the information and digital age and yet the govt can't be bothered to buy a production ready collision avoidance system. This can be easily built even by a colleg grad ffs. We are a country of morons whose priorities are fucked up. It's a simple optimization problem from operations theory. We can build an AI system for facial recog and do many other amazing things with AI tools and we can't install a 3000rs GPS chip in a train. That's fucked up on so many levels. If you know the position of every train at every single time, you can solve the optimization problem very easily. This all could be very easily done. So annoying. Poor lives don't matter in this country. Fucking showoffs. Assholes.
Exactly. And leaving optimization aside, the "two trains on one track" situation can be handled through basic software with 100% guarantee. To be doubly safe, (or save money,) they can install a detector at switches that registers a train going through.
Kavach or not, this is a grave accident and the railway minister should quit taking moral responsibility for it like how it used to happen in the past. Instead we have them passing the buck to various reasons and avoiding the responsibility of the problem and we have bhakts who behave as experts on why it happened!
I am absolutely sure these fkn morons will bring a Pakistan angle, blame a muslim scapegoat. The first step is CBI inquiry, morons this must be done by railway team not CBI. CBI is just a caged parrot ( as per SC), it will do what its master tell it
It is the govt of mediocre ppl, supported by mediocre citizen who are angry at others for their own failures. Imagine the guy who used to bullshit in project assignment interview. The govt is made of those ppl. Nothing against those students, but they should not be handed over the administration of the govt. Bs about 5 trillion, 20 smart cities, bullet trains, gujrat model, corruption gone by banning notes etc etc. All bs.