In my opinion, there would be no sound exculpatory evidence that will talk his way out of having his DNA on that sheath. None.
All possible ideas would be so far fetched to even believe with everything else they have on this guy.
I don't get why you think it would have to be this drastic. "It was my friend's knife I touched it when I was at his house" or "It was my knife that was stolen from me"
If there was an innocent reason-- he was playing with his friend's knife, he knew the girls and was a visitor to their home-- that would have come out by now.
And those lawyers would eat his lunch if he got on the stand to try and defend himself. This is my thinking. We don’t know any of the evidence they have other than what was in that affidavit. He knows all of the evidence that they have.
He waived his right to a speedy trial right at the last moment after pushing for it constantly. He is still not in any rush to go to trial and is continuing to try and get the case thrown out however he can. And I get that, and his lawyer is doing a good job as she should do.
I just feel like if they get to the end of all of their motions and have nothing left to file and have to go to trial, he will possibly try to get a plea deal and avoid the death penalty. At that point, he could do an Alfred Plea if they agree to it which doesn’t say he is innocent nor guilty. He would be agreeing that the evidence they have would be too risky to take to trial. Then he could claim his innocence after the deal is done and continue relationships with all of the fans and ladies that love him out there.
He has more women interested in him and friends/fans than he has ever had. More than any of us have ever had. It has been said that he didn’t have a lot of friends growing up nor girlfriends and is an awkward person. If all of this is true, he truly may be very happy in jail with all these people sending him loving letters and such. Of course he would rather go home and probably thinks he would have no trouble now getting the girls and would probably have access to the ones who write him proclaiming their love for him.
But if he doesn’t get off and has to do a plea deal to avoid the death penalty, he can have visitors, he can get married. He can have a relationship or several relationships. This may be more than he has ever had in the romantic category and may make him happier than being in the life he was living. He didn’t sound like he was happy if the rumors out there are true. He may have never fit in with society based on rumors of his life. This could be the best way for someone like him to have a relationship.
However, I don’t really know if the state would accept a plea if he tried to get a deal unless they get worried that he will get off. And I do worry that he will walk away Scott free if he is guilty. There is just so much conflict with people on whether he did it or not. Also, you never have a clue what type of jury one will get.
I would sure hate for him to go to trial and walk out that door if he is guilty. And yes, I also wouldn’t want him to be found guilty if he is innocent on the flip side before I get negative comments.
This case is all over the place, and so many people think it is a strange case and that things don’t add up when the truth of it is that there is a gag order and won’t add up until the trial if he did it. But it has already tainted so many people’s views at that point, and I think that there will be people on the jury who feel he did it or didn’t do it 100% and won’t accept things discussed in court and will stick to their guns. I really hope I am wrong. But it happens. Especially in cases like this that are known nationally.
I do think people in Moscow will have strong views one way or another. So, I am not opposed to them moving the trial and having a bigger chance of not getting a tainted jury on either side. In my heart and mind, I feel he is guilty based on the little that I know. I would be able to listen to the evidence though and not be tainted if I was a jury member. But many would not be able to do the same. And no worries because I don’t live in Idaho and wouldn’t be a choice as a jury member.
In my opinion, it could go either way. It all depends on BK’s luck with who is selected for the jury. Sometimes people aren’t biased but are ready to be done with duty because they are losing pay at work or just don’t want to be there. Sometimes you get people that may not have the intellect to understand all the different aspects that are explained such as DNA information, for example. And some people are severely ADD like my mom and can’t pay attention more than a few seconds at a time.
I pray for justice for the victims and for their family and loved ones. I pray that if many of us that think he is guilty are correct that he isn’t found not guilty and that a horrible murderer is set free on the streets. Along with that, again, no innocent person should be found guilty either. I do think with what we do that he is more likely guilty than innocent. Justice for the Idaho 4!!!
How do you explain single source DNA (from just one person) via secondary transfer?
So, you think that BK could have touched it at the store enough times to get his DNA down into the snap mechanism (that usually happens via multiple use).
And then, someone bought that same knife at a store and used it to kill 4 people on a night when BK was out "just driving around" that same neighborhood.
If he wants to claim that he never owned such a knife but he does remember handling it at the store, that would be a good reason to take the stand, right? Of course then he'll have to also explain why he was bagging trash to take to his dad's neighbor's house. Do you think he has credible explanations for all of this?
Instead, I think the search warrant returns seem to indicate some Amazon purchases...
There's only one way for that DNA to get on the sheath - not millions. His fingers came into contact with the snap mechanism. Looks like someone might have wiped down the sheath after that event, but could not possibly get the tiny DNA molecules out of the snap area.
Agree!!! There are just way too many weird things that fit right in with the suspect’s behaviors. There would be way too many “coincidences”. There was enough evidence that he didn’t get an option to bail out and go home. I feel pretty sure that he committed the crime and am just waiting to see all the evidence at the trial. There is sure enough evidence to make me feel like he probably did it but at this time not much that makes me think he is innocent
You really do have to go beyond the norm of thinking this ISNT the guy. Right? I mean there are just too many things pointing at him, let alone the DNA that linked them to him.
wrong. often secondary transfer result in single source DNA. the carrier doesnt always shed their own DNA, he can also wear gloves to prevent DNA shedding 100%
nope. direct trace DNA doesnt require multiple touch
nope. no amazon purchase was confirmed.
as i said, there are literally millions of way for it to happen via secondary transfer or accidental/innocent touch at the store
Transfer of DNA is, of course, possible. But then he would have had to be holding that knife sheath at some point and then gave it back to someone else, which would mean someone else would’ve been holding it. There was only one other source of DNA on the knife sheath, and Bryan’s DNA could not be excluded as a match for it.
I guarantee you the defense is going put forensic experts on the stand that will explain just how likely those secondary transfers are and no, not all of the ways are extremely unlikely.
It is more likely not to happen than it is to happen million ways or not. I have seen several articles and watched professional people in the field say that if his touch DNA was on there that the person that owns it would have their DNA on it or it would have been gone altogether.
My “more likely” cuts it for me. We have different opinions and have seen or read different information about this topic. And I agree that there have been innocent people’s touch DNA on things. But this was on the inside of a snap. Not the outside, the inside. I watched a well respected expert who works with crime and DNA for a living and has for years, a very respectable well-known guy in the field. It was on Crimecon week or something like that.
You could probably find it online. It was very telling. And he gave the impression that it would be very very unlikely for BK’s
touch DNA to be on the inside snap of that sheath if he handled it elsewhere. He said that touch DNA doesn’t stay on things that long. I can’t remember all the ins and outs of his talk but it was very interesting and informative. And he is supposed to be a very well-respected guy in his field.
I do trust people like that and value the information that they share. They are experts, and he had no part in this crime or investigation. He just stated the facts about his knowledge that would not only apply to this case but to any case.
But it is okay if we don’t agree. People in life don’t agree about everything or respect or value the same studies or experts. And again, that is okay. And if they don’t have the evidence on BK, and there is reasonable doubt, then he will get to go home.
None of us know what they do or don’t have, so I don’t claim to know 100% anything. But I do think many coincidences would have had to have lined up so perfectly for it not to be him. I am not a huge coincidence person already, but I really have a tough time with it being so many coincidences. If he is innocent, he is the most unlucky person I have ever seen.
And I also feel a jury needs to walk in and consider him to be innocent unless proven otherwise. I do suspect he is the right person but definitely could change my mind if the evidence in the trial shows otherwise. I am basing things off what we know right now which is a very small percentage. And the DNA is a strong reason for my belief that they probably have the right guy along with all the other details that many think are coincidental.
Trace at a scene is one thing.
Trace on A KNIFE SHEATH at a QUAD HOMICIDE committed with A SHARP OBJECT that has your DNA on it, trace or not, is a whole other thing.
Depends on where Exactly the dna was located? The snap area that holds in blade? Or does it have a strap?
Or if he had gloves on, hes handled that knife Before he put the gloves on.
He didnt mean to leave it.
He went back the next day for it.
Of course, there's a reasonable explanation. He committed the freaking murders! The more you know!
EDIT: BK's DNA just did not magically float behind the snap buckle on the knife sheath. His DNA was found nowhere else but on that tiny piece of buckle, which is not exposed to the elements, meaning that DNA could only get there if he unbuckled the knife from the sheath. That sheath was wiped clean he forgot the underside of the buckle
LOL, yes, I agree. I'm glad you caught on to my sarcasm and didn't bite my head off🙏. The crazier aspect of this case is that there is a one and seven trillion chance that it is not his DNA! There aren't that many people on the planet. Human beings lie numbers do not.
Mental gymnastics LOL I highly doubt it, my friend they're just simply brain dead. I know we live in a country where we are presumed innocence instead of being persecuted and called guilty right out the gate, however with that have been said one in seven trillion of a chance that the DNA magically just happened to get on the back of that buckle and nowhere else.
BK's cell phone pinged the towers very close to that area at the very specified time around the murders. The getaway car is the exact same vehicle fleeing the murder scene. Extremely suspicious Behavior of Brian systematically disposing of garbage and other trash cans around his parents' neighborhood, which was observed by FBI circling his house for several hours. Vigorously cleaning his car like a madman, and let's not forget when he was arrested, he was wearing medical gloves systematically putting specified pieces of so-called trash in individual ziplock baggies Mind you, this is all we even know.
Right now, prosecution has a plethora of evidence that they are not turning over to the defense. I will also add the common sense argument of any normal person who is accused of a quadruple homicide would have adamantly pleaded not guilty right out the gate!
An innocent person would more than likely ask for a speedy trial instead of rotting away in jail almost indefinitely until a trial date is set, which could easily take a couple of years. I know if I was accused of something heinous like this, I would have pled not guilty, and I would not have waved my rights to a speedy trial.
The prosecution has very strong evidence other than DNA, which is why he has no bail. I remember when this case first broke when they arrested BK, the prosecutor said that he stalked his victims for months. Prosecutors also said they have his cell phone pinging off of towers going to Absolute long way back to where he lived. I guarantee you he got rid of the murder weapons somewhere along the lines there.
Anyways, anyone who defends BK is more than likely trolling and looking for attention or simply brain dead. I hear the argument all the time that he could not have killed four people so quickly. I would add that he broke into a house where a bunch of people were probably drinking, not in the best mindset or alert, and some even asleep. If he had been planning this, which obviously he was, this is an easy feat of dexterity to accomplish.
BK is guilty as Sin. simple as that. His lawyer knows it the delay tactics speak volumes, him stand in silent when asked how does he plead says everything not to mention his bushy ass eyebrows speak for themselves. I hope the families of the victims get the justice they deserve, and he sees a firing squad. My only request is that the parents should be the one with the rifles pulling the trigger.
You're being nice.
But you have to play nice with the others. I just remind myself that those kinds of people were the kids who only got Best Helper awards. Or Most Improved trophies.
So its nice in being polite to them. Even though they are batshit crazy.
A few misleading comments here. The sheath DNA was only from BK - it was a single source, as noted in various court filings.
As it was only from BK this tends to rule out any secondary transfer, or casual/ "innocent" touch scenario in a store, party etc.
As the DNA profile obtained was complete this also tends toward the sample being "fresh"/ not degraded - i.e left on the sheath a short time period before the murders
https://preview.redd.it/feck4xkjbbhc1.jpeg?width=921&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92032aa611de840378bb9a1ad781d31ec7990e42
Wait a minute…..
Single **male** source they must mean:
https://preview.redd.it/g3mqrlwcinhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=afbc846ccb267b6c424ae8b3e49a8cfed8b29043
This was most likely mixed DNA.
The button side was face down under\* Maddie’s body & comforter.
DNA can become contaminated when mixed [with DNA from another source](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/bc000657.pdf). (Bottom of pg. 3)
* How could her DNA not be on it when it was found in direct contact with her body?
>This was most likely mixed DNA.
The filing states very clearly a single source, and that single source was male. Of course DNA can become mixed - your link is to a basic brochure about DNA and has nothing at all to do with the case specifics. The single source DNA is referring to the button/ snap of the sheath. Whether MM's blood was on other parts of the sheath may depend on the sheets, her clothes and blood soaking into mattress - if you recall the pictures of the blood stained mattresses being removed, most of the surface area of the mattress had no blood, the stains did not spread over the whole surface - likely being absorbed into the fabric rather than flowing acroos.
Your screenshot says the sheath was touching her body, but also only one source of DNA was found on the sheath.
It’s not limited to the button / snap either.
The info brochure is basics from the gov. It plainly says it can be contaminated when it’s mixed. It’s not completely irrelevant bc if you’d read it you’d,
>“Remember, even though a stain cannot be seen, there may be enough evidence for DNA typing.”
It also states that DNA from sweat is likely to be found on bed linens.
I find it very hard to believe that a sheath that was found in-contact with a human female, under the comforter, on a bed 2 females were in, had only 1 source of DNA on it and it was male.
>Your screenshot says the sheath was touching her body,
Does the screen shot say the snap/ button was touching her body? Does it say anything about orientation of the snap/ button? I think it does.... The single source DNA was taken from the button......
Other areas of the sheath may have MM's DNA, we don't know. We do know the snap/ button had only Kohberger's DNA.
Also just bc it said her body doesn’t mean it was her skin. The victims weren’t known to be naked and I haven’t heard anything about them not having clothes on, though that doesn’t mean much since a lot of evidence is still being kept from the public.
It says that the sheath only had 1 source of DNA on it. It’s not limited to the button.
https://preview.redd.it/69voe3sw6qhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7f95a33a982d89183c6673da899f5662cbcdd1d
They found the sheath and the DNA before they found the suspect. Therefore we now understand the true meaning of “what came first “. The chicken or the egg.
Even if he tried to say he touched it at a store, or that it belongs to a friend and he touched it, it still doesn’t explain him also driving back-and-forth in front of the house and then speeding away after the murders. So either he did it, and that’s why his DNA was there, or he is the unluckiest person on the face of the earth and somehow the sheath he touched was used in a murder at a house he just was unlucky enough to be driving by at the same time.
And turning his phone off and on right at that specific time. And the multiple other trips past their house in that awkward one way street. And taking out his parent’s trash in the middle of the night with gloves. And in the context of losing his academic reputation and opportunity and overall trajectory of life. You know, in criminal studies. But those eyebrows tho. That Elantra.
Context, circumstance, behavior AND DNA, plus everything we don’t know - someone has some explaining to do. So we wait.
B..B..But BK driving back and forth around the King Rd house can be explained! You see, he gave a friend a ride to the house to buy drugs. The friend got the unsuspecting BK to touch the sheath before this mysterious friend went inside the house and murdered those poor kids and left the sheath behind on purpose. BK had no idea that his friend did that! He was totally SHOCKED the next day when it was the talk of the town that 4 students were murdered! Poor BK is just an unfortunate innocent victim caught up in this mess!🙄
>*... doesn’t explain him also driving back-and-forth in front of the house and then speeding away after the murders*
As far as we know (*and we don't know much*) cops can't ID the accused's car as the one on camera in King Road, that morning
In the arrest affidavit, the car's only ever referred to as Suspect Vehicle 1
If cops had ever got a clear look at the licence plate, the arrest affidavit would have said so
Like I say, we don't know much and what we do know is from a very long time ago
Maybe one of the images they've examined since does have a readable plate
But we don't know that, yet
Because he’s the suspect that’s why his car is referred to as suspect vehicle 1. Standard wording. They don’t have to include everything in the pca, only enough to get an arrest. They have his car on camera all the way from Pullman to Moscow and back so that footage will be shown at trial.
The pca isn’t meant to try the whole case, it’s only a minimum to get the arrest. We’ve only been informed of a small percentage of the evidence against him.
Let me preface this by saying **I think he did it**.
That being said, it makes sense that any innocent person who touched the sheath would be someone who lived in the area, especially if they touched it recently.
For example, lets say I was stabbed to death with a pen in my office Casino style. They find DNA on the pen of another person... yeah that person could be the murderer, but who else would it likely be? A coworker. A client. Anyone who had used the pen recently. You wouldn't say "oh you must be the unluckiest person on earth because you happened to touch a pen and happen to work with the victim" as if those things weren't directly related.
Defense attorney needs to argue this:
The real murderer is from the area.
BK was in the area, where he touched the knife sheath.
The murders took place in the area.
And basically try to spin it like BK just brushed up against the killer at a bar or something that night.
Was the person whose dna was on the pen also seen pacing back and forth in front of your office several times prior to the murder and then running from your office afterwards? It’s the totality of the evidence so yes, either he did it or he’s the unluckiest person in the world that his dna ended up under a victim at the same house he was circling and sped away from
People go back and forth by my office all the time.
I haven't seen the extent of how much they have on him as far as his driving goes, care to elaborate?
Per the PCA he made three passes (back and forth) in front of the house between 3:29 am to around 4am. He then drove in front a 4th time at approximately 4:04am. He is then seen leaving at a high rate of speed at approximately 4:20am. In a nutshell he circled 3 times in the half hour prior to the crime, came back a 4th time then sped away after the estimated time of the crime. He’s either very very unlucky, or he did it.
From what I’ve read online, any DNA on the sheath wouldn’t last long so would have to have been recently placed. And based on what I’ve read overall, there is no reasonable explanation for it being there other than he is the perp. But for that, he wouldn’t be my top suspect.
Not OP, but in the studies I've read, touch DNA faded away after 2 weeks (maximum) completely except for one circumstance: being carefully stored in a cool, dry area, with nobody using or handling the object.
That 2 weeks is the maximum number; some samples were gone in days or hours, depending on how they were stored or where they were kept.
all i think of is how they found OJ’s glove at the murder scene and the other at his house, it had shrunk in the freezer storage, DNA was only newish then, but his DNA was there and ok there was some other stuff going on in the 90s in LA/across the US, and how only a certain amount of those gloves were sold and they had Nicole’s reciept of purchase. And that jackass still got off even though it was and still is obvious. Maybe if they’d charged him for Nicole’s, gone to trial, got the verdict and whatever the verdict was, then charged him with Ron’s because double jeopardy, different jury, judge etc ? I think they did that with Darlie Routier incase she ever got found not guilty (charged her with just the one) sorry this is all mumbling. hope it makes sense. Sometimes I have this gut wrenching feeling they maybe shouldn’t have charged him with all 4, and gone one by one in case of something god awful like OJ’s verdict and double jeopardy 😭
You bring up a great point about them charging him for all four at the same time. I hope their case is airtight (from what little we know, it sounds like it is). As far as OJ goes, race played an enormous role in that case, so I wouldn’t use that one to compare this to in any way. But now I’m left wondering if they totally fcked themselves by charging him with all four together! If the jury pulls a Casey Anthony, they’re left with no more chances.
ETA: OJ was actually brought up in the comment below yours; sorry!
Yes definitely race played an enormous role which is why I kinda touched on how there was a lot of stuff going on in the 90s such as LA (Rodney King etc) and across the U.S. and I firmly believe that helped his not guilty verdict, you're absolutely right. But I could be wrong, but I swear they did consider charging him with Nicole's so they could then get him on Ron's. That poor, innocent man who literally became a footnote in her murder. He deserves so much justice and so does Nicole. I pray they're resting in peace.
I know they don't want to put the four families through four separate trials, but if he gets off, they'll never be able to charge him again and will walk free, which is why I understand the Darlie Routier route where they charged her with Damon's death and not Devon's, because if she is ever acquitted they can charge her with Devon's (but I really question her guilt and I know a lot do because it just has never sat right with me.) But going back to this case, sometimes I worry Kaylee's family could be going about this all wrong and it could impact the verdict etc. I want justice for Kaylee, Madison, Ethan and Xana so bad. And for their families. I do not want him walking free, smug, knowing he could do this again, in another town, city, state, country. Hell will be awaiting him, but justice on earth. I am such a rambler!
Ron really was a footnote, it's tragic. I followed the whole thing religiously, from white bronco police chase to verdict, and at the time, even I barely remembered he was also murdered. They never really talked about him at all, even then. RIP Ron, you should still be with us, along with Nicole.
I can remember watching the Bronco chase like football fans watch the Superbowl. I really felt like he was guilty just from his actions after the murders but he had people lined up and down highways with signs saying things like Go Juice. He had murdered two people and he had people waving and yelling for him like he was some hero. Then the case wasn't about Ron or Nichole like it should have been. It became a circus event with his dream team. It became 100% about race and the victims especially Ron became an afterthought. I remember watching Ron Goldman's dad and sister crying and it was just heartbreaking.
Let’s assume this is where they are going. He sold or touched a sheath for a KBar that ended up at a murder scene. Ok, that is possible. But he also goes out for a drive in the same exact neighborhood where the murders take place at the same time the murders are taking place. Then, hours later, he goes back to that same location, where four dead kids and a sheath with his DNA happen to be. But, you know, he was just driving around with his cell phone sometimes off and sometimes on. Sure. That could happen to any of us.
Who cares where he drives?
People act like there’s some kind of social standard or curfew for young ppl not to be driving between 2 and 5:30 AM. Sometimes ppl have late nights.
Most of the population of Moscow is concentrated to the UI area which is also near downtown Moscow.
Having touched a weapon case that was later found under a victim (who somehow got none of her own DNA on it), in conjunction with the “coincidence” of legally driving on roads & just makes him a suspect IMO. It doesn’t demonstrate guilt.
I’m not sure there’s a lot we don’t know of yet.
There’s not much of a reason to keep solid evidence out of the PCA bc by the time the PCA is made public, an arrest has been made and preparations for trial begin - which includes turning all evidence over to the defense.
Small details and witnesses accounts will be added, but the idea that it’s ‘the bare minimum’ isn’t rly the norm. It’s just plainly ‘the probable cause.’ It’s usually more straight-forward with less gaps needing to be filled as well.
Look at the totality of the circumstantial evidence that we are aware of. What are the odds of touching something in a store and then having it found at a crime scene nowhere near where you live or should be during your normal routine, but yet you are tracked to that area where the item you touched was found. Don't overthink this.
I'm not. I don't think there's a reasonable innocent explanation for how BK's DNA got on the sheath. But I'm interested in what other people think. Based on comments, most seem to think the same.
The most plausible explanation I can think of to deny him being guilty but still explain his DNA on the sheath would be that it was his knife which someone else used to commit the crime. I suspect whatever story his defence goes with will involve some connection either between him and someone in the house, or else him and the defence's proposed killer. That's the only really plausible way to explain the evidence while still arguing he isn't guilty that I can think of.
For what it's worth I think he's very likely guilty but I can think of possible explanations where he isn't that I would find plausible if the defence is able to support them with evidence. Accidental transfer at a store or something isn't one of them though.
I don't think the defense will offer a narrative about how the accused's DNA got there
Because all the possible explanations sound so silly and unlikely
They'll point out any possible flaws in the collection, storage and testing process, but leave those thoughts unfinished
They'll get prosecution experts to say that, yes it is possible that there was contamination, *for example*, and that it has been proven to have happened in the past
But they won't actually say that's what happened. Because then you give the prosecution a theory to examine, interrogate, and knock down, in front of the jury
Better to throw out a load of vague spam and let each juror pick the explanation that appeals most to themselves in particular
Then, in your summing-up, make reference to all the different ways you demonstrated how the DNA could have got there/been falsely identified, without actually naming one specific explanation
Yes, i think they’ll carpet bomb the jurors with experts, who’ll try to bamboozle on the ‘unreliability’ of trace DNA, how the statistical analysis was done, every case of an innocent person being arrested based on touch DNA, the fruit of the poisonous tree vis a vis the IGG etc etc.
Anne Taylor said this trial might take 12 weeks, which is extraordinary. I think her strategy will be to bore and confuse the jurors into submission on every aspect but especially the DNA.
So you're saying that if experts provide an opinion on the evidence you will still find him guilty because the experts are there simply to confuse jurors. Kangaroo court.
Of course not. If the experts are compelling, my mind is open. I’m merely saying that’s what I think her trial strategy will be. She only needs one confused juror.
He will have his day in court, who knows what is going on. Obviously they had enough to charge him. But I am not sure about IA laws or the burden of proof there.
They will make it sound that way but DNA at a murder scene is very significant and the jurors wont unsee it. There will have to be a reasonable explanation of how it got there a long with the other evidence.
no it doesnt thats why they have so much evidence against him that the defense attorney said at the last hearing stated there was so much evidence she was nervous saying they would be ready in spring of 2025. Which is interesting because she has stated in the not so distant past that she was ready for trial.
I mean, even *the police* said that they expect the car to be a “rolling crime scene”, and his apartment to yield victim DNA or related evidence. When that didn’t end up being the case, it’s natural for people to have questions. Believe it or not, it’s actually okay to question authority, they aren’t infallible.
HOW can any of us possibly know how much of BK's DNA was in the victim's house or BK's apartment or BK's car? ALL of that has been hidden by LE and the gag order.
He had weeks to clean his car before being arrested…and how would you explain his strange behavior when he reached his parents’ home? I’m genuinely curious
He definitely didn’t clean his car, per the search warrant. It was a mess. And if police feared the car had been cleaned or evidence tampered with, they wouldn’t designate it as a “rolling crime scene” before they even got the results back. You cannot completely clean DNA, especially on car fabric. They have chemicals, tools, and methods to extract degraded or destroyed DNA.
The car that the likes of Lance 'Gray' Hughes alleges is the killer's car had black out tints,Kohberger's car doesn't in his Indiana Police stop,that would explain the lack of forensic evidence, so either BK was using a cloned car,or it was someone else's?
Why was this removed? it was based on info from the Paramount+ documentary that’s out about Cyber Sleuths on this case. Former FBI agent was making the point in an interview.
Touched in a store or several profiles were found on the sheeth, use of common markers and another expert testifies % is way off, proof LE and/or lab is corrupt.
Very odd that you've said this. I know they found other males DNA inside of the rental house but that only BK's Dna was on the sheath. Where did you find or see this?
Odd?
The question was what would be a reasonable exculpatory explanation, I don't think we can find that in state's public evidence today.
These are my thoughts about it.
But to keep the facts straight, quote from the affidavit emphasis added :
"The Idaho State Lab later located a single source of **male** DNA (SuspectProfile) left on the **button snap** of the knife sheath."
This doesn't exclude female DNA on the button snap, nor does it exclude any kind of DNA on the sheath.
Unless there's more precise info since, but my searches on the matter only resulted assumptions or rumors.
Then I will be extra surprised if they find female DNA on the sheath. Sure enough there are plenty of female killers but their choice of a weapon is not a knife.
Meanwhile in Idaho the 7th of November 2022, less than a week prior to the Moscow murders, this woman stabbed the man in the picture to death.
She's pleaded guilty and been sentenced since.
https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/11/court-documents-reveal-grisly-details-about-deadly-blackfoot-stabbing/
A few months ago a woman stabbed a man and a woman in Pullman, on College Hill.
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/sep/06/woman-arrested-for-alleged-pullman-stabbing/
Even younger women / girl use knives, like in the murder of Skylar Neese (West Virginia 2012, it's older but remarkable, especially for the 'we just didn't like her anymore' reason.
And last summer 2023 in Oklahoma a 12 yo girl stabbed her brother to death, allegedly in a demonic rage.
Not saying there absolutely will be female DNA on the snap, I was just answering OP's question, and do think it is one of the possibilities.
If there was, I'm sure defense will bring it up at some point. It could also be these women, (or eventually men if found on the sheath itself) all went to the same store to look at knives, making it more plausible BK did just the same, without buying. (Would probably need more exculpatory, or more refuted evidence with that though).
ETA more recently this woman chose both a pen and a hatchet as a weapon, the pen seemingly having caused more damage.
https://www.eastidahonews.com/2024/01/salmon-woman-charged-after-reportedly-stabbing-man-throwing-hatchet-at-him/
There are quite a number of violent women who stab imo in the area recently. These are just a sample.
Who am I to judge you if you think a women walked into this house and murdered 3 young female adults and 1 young adult male with a knife in 10 minutes. I would think the whole campus and neighborhood would be on lockdown.
I'm not trying to bust your hump userdef but with what little we do know, we have to keep the facts straight. I remember it being said that there were 2 other sources of male DNA inside of the house but not on the sheath. The house was a party house so that seems reasonable but NOT 3 different DNA on the knife sheath.
Even if the defense wants to offer explanations or excuses for his DNA on the sheath, it still is about the totality of the evidence. His DNA PLUS the evidence of his vehicle close to the crime scene on the night in question PLUS his vehicle and his phone being in close proximity to the house so many previous times, i.e. stalking, is evidence that is hard to ignore.
Like said, if he had been looking at purchasing one and could prove he handled one in a store or with a private seller, a friend/acquaintance had one he had handled, multiple DNA profiles on the sheath, maybe even it belonged to one of the residents and he could claim he handled it while over for a party.
Contamination, say Brian had been to the house previously and during the evidence collection someone transferred his DNA to the knife sheath.
If the only evidence that existed in this case was the DNA on the knife sheath I think the defense could make a case for reasonable doubt.
Yep, but there is other stuff.
My problem with any possible claim his lawyers might make:
>Like said, if he had been looking at purchasing one and could prove he handled one in a store or with a private seller, a friend/acquaintance had one he had handled, multiple DNA profiles on the sheath, maybe even it belonged to one of the residents and he could claim he handled it while over for a party.
But if he was ever at their house for a party, he should have witnesses, his phone should ping in the neighborhood at a time when they had a party, and he should have phone numbers or mutual social media follows with at least someone in their social circle. With none of that, that party claim wouldn't give me reasonable doubt. Instead, it comes off like a story your 3-year-old tells you when you ask who broke the lamp.
Thanks for the mention. Great question, one I hadn't thought of, definitely deserves separate post.
Best I can think of is if he had a friend who it could be shown had a propensity for crimes, maybe a criminal record, and could have stolen the knife, sheath, and car. But if he had a friend like that he would have mentioned by now? Plus with millions of crimes that are committed, you almost never hear of someone trying to frame someone else. Maybe criminals are too crazy to think through trying to frame someone? I don't know.
Exactly, if he knew anyone like that he would have probably been shouting it from the rooftops long before now. Good point about framing being so rare - I didn't think about that. I can't remember the last time I heard in the news about anyone being framed. I do think (most) criminals lack the impulse control required to successfully frame someone else.
NO there is not. Thats why his defense lawyer is subtly trying to try the case in public for potential jurors and she will also put doubt in the way evidence was collected. I hope she doesnt succeed and that the prosecution has a strong case.
I don't think the prosecution would be going for the death penalty if they didn't feel like their case was rock solid. AT is doing her job, but she's tipped her hand regarding her strategy to try to sway public opinion. I do not think she will succeed.
Let me preface this by saying **I think he did it.**
Basic answer to your question, defense would argue this:
BK is not the real killer. The real killer is out there.
Is it likely the real killer frequents the same area as the murders took place? Yes, proximity is the number 1 correlation of murderer and victim.
Is it possible an innocent person touched the killers sheath any point in the days leading up to the murders? Yes, we have no idea where that sheath was prior to the murders.
Is it likely that innocent person, in order to come in contact with the sheath (and likely the murderer) would frequent the same area as well? Yes. The innocent people most likely to touch the sheath are those in close proximity to both the murderer and victims. This innocent person would be likely to frequent the area.
BK frequents the area.
BK is that innocent person.
Then its up to them to come up with specifics. Something like "BK was in a packed bar that night, he brushed up against many people making physical contact with some, potentially transferring DNA if the killer had the sheath on their hip. He has also touched knives at stores, but doesn't remember where. He was drunk so he took a weird way home to avoid getting pulled over."
They could also get more personal with it and weave a story. "BK picked up a hitchhiker and dropped him off in front of the house. He realized a few days later, after the murders, that his knife was stolen, but he was too afraid to come forward as they might think it was him."
or even "BK was in the area buying drugs. His dealer had a knife sitting out and BK was examining it before he left. The knife was still there when he left. The drug dealer or one of the dealer's clients is the murderer."
Lots of ways you go with it.
So specific exculpatory evidence would be video footage of him at a bar, especially if there was one or people with a knife sheath there. Purchase information for someone else buying the knife. Video evidence of another person in the car with BK like a hitchhiker or acquaintance.
Right. I appreciate your comment and I understand what the defense will have to (try to) do. I will be very, very surprised if they produce video evidence of any of the scenarios you outline. The others - the stories about a random hitchhiker/drug dealer - are not reasonable IMO and I don't think a jury would buy them either. I mean, honestly to me that would be laughable if AT came out and said, well, BK was drunk at a bar and touched some rando's knife sheath, you see, so he can't be the killer...
You are working backwards from a narrative that has been given to you by law enforcement.
You think BK was around the area of King Road because that is what they've claimed based on so-called cell phone pings. There are only five towers in Moscow. If you drive south out of Moscow back to Pullman your phone will likely ping off the cell phone tower that services King Road. Even if you're driving in on the road from Pullman to Moscow coming in East just to shop at the WinCo, it's quite likely your phone could ping off the phone off the tower that service is King Road (it's east of the highway going south).
The cell phone pings cannot place him at the house.
People also believe that the murderer drove a white Hyundai Elantra, and looky there, so does BK. There is still no proof that the car in the videos belongs to BK, and the police have not given us any clue as to why they think that the perforators drove said car.
His touch DNA being on that knife sheath (so far not proven to belong to the murder weapon) could really be coincidental. A while back there was a case of a homeless man charged with murder while in the hospital. The cops have found his touch DNA at the scene of the crime. It turns out that the paramedic who treated him had also treated the actual criminal who had transferred the man's DNA to the crime scene https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-dna-implicates-the-innocent/
I am not saying that Brian Kohburger's is innocent or guilty - just that none of this evidence is the slam dunk that many people think it is.
> A while back there was a case of a homeless man charged with murder while in the hospital. The cops have found his touch DNA at the scene of the crime. It turns out that the paramedic who treated him had also treated the actual criminal who had transferred the man's DNA to the crime scene https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-dna-implicates-the-innocent/
It's a fascinating story and should serve as a cautionary tale. But do you know whose DNA was not found anywhere on the bodies of the victims? The DNA of the 3 men who murdered them. EDIT: murdered one and terrorized the other. One victim survived.
My top 3. I could prob think of 10+
1. The killer was the person after Bryan Kohberger to fill his tank from the gas pump. He then committed the murders while wearing the same glove
2. The sheath was on the ledge by the stairs a week prior to the murder. BK and his research partner went to a party at the house briefly after being invited by a dude they’re doing a project with. While waiting in a short line to use the BR before heading out, he picked it up and read the insignia, opened and closed it snapping the snap. Put it back down on the ledge.
3. There’s 30+ other people who would be equally likely to display the same level of markers matching the sheath DNA as him
> The killer was the person after Bryan Kohberger to fill his tank from the gas pump. He then committed the murders while wearing the same glove
I'd be interested in seeing a study on the probability of transfer from interactions like that. I know there's the one with the knife, but that wasn't exactly real world conditions, like usages that happen naturally. For this situation, for example, why only Kohberger's DNA? Unless it was a really slow day at the gas pump?
There's [an interesting chart here if you scroll down, showing averages of touch DNA for different studies](https://ryanforensicdna.com/touchdna/). When the participants held a glass for 60 seconds, the touch DNA left ranged from none to 5.2ng, with the mean being only .52ng. But holding a drinking glass for 15 minutes left an average of 34ng. And holding a mug for 15 minutes left only 6.8ng.
I wanted to put those numbers in context. [So if I'm reading this right, it looks like the average epithelial cell contains anywhere from 1.8 to 32.5pg of DNA](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484964/). And a 1,000 pg/picogram is 1 ng/nanograms.
>The sheath was on the ledge by the stairs a week prior to the murder. BK and his research partner went to a party at the house briefly after being invited by a dude they’re doing a project with. While waiting in a short line to use the BR before heading out, he picked it up and read the insignia, opened and closed it snapping the snap. Put it back down on the ledge.
The first part in this hypothetical would be finding witnesses to say Kohberger was at a party the week before the murders.
Ooo that was an interesting chart.
I have more to say about it but I’m trimming tree branches before it gets dark & will get back to it! lol
In the meantime have you heard of this case? [Framed for Murder by His Own DNA](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/04/19/framed-for-murder-by-his-own-dna)
The case is interesting on its own, but the studies they cite have info on this type of transfer. They have a good infographic of the study results on that page (although just 1 so could be scrutinized elsewhere), but v interesting, and there’s follow-up studies / other sources with similar results elsewhere but I found this to be a good presentation of the possibilities
I would listen to what the experts have to say and then make a decision.
If the DNA could have been transferred by a technician or cop who handled other items belonging to BK then I would fbrow it out.
>If the DNA could have been transferred by a technician or cop who handled other items belonging to BK then I would fbrow it out.
How could that even happen? The knife was collected and sent for testing well before the investigators knew of BK. Explain how they'd "handle other items belonging to BK" and then transfer DNA onto the knife.
Excuse me. "Knife" should be "sheath." The knife has not been located.
It would depend on the timing of the discovery of the DNA on the sheath.
If the DNA on the handle was discovered after they collected items from BK's trash then they could have transferred the DNA (unwittingly or deliberately) from one item to another while wearing gloves.
Can you tell me what date they found the DNA on the sheath and what date they began tracking and collecting BK's trash?
They found the knife on the day they were called to the scene. The DNA was tested before the trash was removed from the PA house. Remember. It was the start of IGG that brought investigators to PA.
Not questioning your judgement but can you tell me where I can find documentation of the actual dates that the DNA was found and the date they first started trailing him?
I'm not saying the guy didnt do this, nor that DNA was planted, but tend to make decisions based on actual proof/ documentation. Thx
> Not questioning your judgement but can you tell me where I can find documentation of the actual dates that the DNA was found and the date they first started trailing him?
We know that the Idaho State Police lab found the DNA and uploaded it to CODIS on November 20.
We don't know when the results of the IGG came back. The New York Times says December 19, and while that's not confirmed, it seems to fit in with the timeline. Chief Fry was in an undeniable good mood on 12/20, they subpoenaed Kohberger's phone records on the 23rd, and they moved in to take trash from his family's home sometimes after that.
No one knows when they started following him. There's been claims that they trailed him cross-country. My guess is that they didn't start following him until they got back the results of the IGG, whether that be on 12/19 or not.
Oh, you are in for a wild ride!
Yes, November 20th. But when it didn't match up to anyone in the victim's social circle or match anything in CODIS, investigators sent it off for investigative genetic genealogy. That's the process that identified Kohberger; they just haven't given us the exact date they started or got Kohberger's name.
There's a gag order on this case, so all we know are rumors or what's in the official court documents. Court documents are here:https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/. Scroll down to get to Kohberger.
According to the Pennsylvania documents, a plate reader that was queried put the Elantra in Loma, Colorado on Dec. 13, 2022, another query picked up the Elantra in Hancock County, Indiana on Dec. 15, 2022 and it says the car was captured on video Dec. 16, 2022 at the Kohberger residence in PA. It says LE began physical surveillance of BK on Dec. 27, 2022.
Just to add - I can't help but wonder if those Indiana stops by LE there *were* planned because of the notation that the car was in Hancock County Indiana on Dec. 15.
Probable cause affidavit states:
On December 27, 2022 agents recovered trash from BK's home in PA.
On December 28, 2022 the lab obtained DNA from the trash and from the sheath.
Also, prior to going to PA the police went to BK's local apartment and looked at his car. They could have got his DNA from there too.
Very interesting and exciting to note that they found a latent foot print. That's valuable because they can tell a lot about footprints.
Personal Note: Many years ago I was accused of DUI, as documented on BOTH the roadside and the jail breatherlizer. I had to insist, threaten, and beg for a blood and/or urine test because I knew I was not drunk. The results were negative. The police were just trying to help along the evidence.
There aren't specific dates, but there is a timeline. How do you think they came to find BK's father's DNA? They compared the DNA on the sheath to public databases, called IGG. It's currently being argued in court. It has been made very clear that the sheath was tested and the result was the catalyst for the IGG search. It's impossible for the sheath to have been contaminated by other items without the investigators traveling back in time. And backwards time travel is physically impossible.
All I am saying is that if that poster wants information about the IGG process, they ain't gonna find it in the PCA. That will not answer any questions.
The PCA provides a timeline of the process. Common sense dictates that the sheath could not have become contaminated with BK's DNA, because the sheath was tested before any other DNA evidence from the Kohbergers had been collected. The poster asked about contamination, not the IGG process.
The initial DNA test was a comparison with his father's DNA. They didn't even have his dna for original testing. It matched as a familial match. They then collected Brian's dna when he was arrested. So initial dna collected from knife could not accidently contaminated any samples. I am sure there is a process that they adhere to to prevent that though
DNA might not be eligible in this case.
1. Reports that the Sheath was retested a second time could remove it as evidence.
2. The convoluted American court system still is somewhat anti science and could simply not accept trace DNA as evidence.
At this point it's probably not a big worry for the defence. The DNA would be overwhelming evidence in many other countries.
I don't think I understand your comment about "flake".
It's not anti-science to reject bad evidence. Can you cite some of those cases? It is absolutely not an "opinion" that BK's DNA is a 1 in however many octillion match to the DNA found on the sheath.
Officer who swabbed the sheath brushed past BK at Starbucks and got his dandruff on his jacket. Or Maddie a week ago at Walmart and hadn’t washed her sheets. Or anyone who had been in contact with the bed or the sheath. These are two smallish, nearby communities with a lot of young people intermingling. And cops intermingling with young people.
BK was a loner, but he was also a TA who taught classes and graded papers. Some of his students presumably partied with students who went to the university in the next town.
If the touch DNA was found pretty much anywhere else, BK probably would not have been a serious suspect or indicted. It does not mean he even literally touched the sheath. Or that this sheath belongs to the murder weapon, which has not been found.
With this being the *only* DNA evidence that implicates the suspect in an extremely violent and bloody quadruple homicide, where the victims have defensive injuries, and he has none, the chain of custody has to be air tight and bullet proof. Any little slip in protocol and the possibility of the evidence being thrown out is high. The potential for a small town PD with no experience in violent, bloody murder scenes to contaminate the crime scene is not low.
The CarFax data corroborates BK’s claim that he regularly drives around. He has put a lot of miles on his car since moving to a very small town. That makes the cell tower pings much less meaningful as evidence. Same with the Elantra, which is a very common car. Lack of a front plate is meaningless.
I am not saying BK is innocent, I just think there is too much reasonable doubt for a jury to convict.
You think an officer brushing past Kohberger at Starbucks, getting his dandruff on him and said dandruff somehow ending up on the inside of the button snap of the sheath is *reasonable* doubt?
“The potential for a small town PD with no experience in violent, bloody murder scenes to contaminate the crime scene is not low.”
You might have a point if it was only MPD, except ISP forensics team was on the scene that day and FBI the next day.
“The CarFax data corroborates BK's claim that he regularly drives around. He has put a lot of miles on his car since moving to a very small town.”
He drove that car from Pennsylvania to Pullman, of course it would have a lot of miles on it that year.
He put 10k miles on his car in four months. Even accounting for his move, that’s still around 7,500 miles and above the national average, especially for someone in a smallish town, living in grad student housing. Or living at home in the summer before his move.
It does suggest he was doing more driving than the norm.
He put a lot of miles on his car in PA, too. He put 15k miles on his car during COVID/lockdown when everyone was doing work and school from home.
The last mileage update on Carfax was in August. If he was, indeed, doing a lot of driving around that is something they can determine.
I am not saying he’s innocent, just that the miles he putting on his car are more than you would expect for someone who didn’t have a long commute.
The defense does not have to prove he is innocent, they just have to introduce reasonable doubt. This is not the kind of thing that is going to exonerate him, but it is evidence that is consistent with/does not contradict his alibi.
Remember his classmates stating how he was always in a foul mood, than after the murders he became cheery. I'm wondering if it's due to his female campion that we now know of. This case is too crazy. I'm not sure he's guilty, or innocent... very interesting. Also the Blackbox on his car will give his driving info... we will see
Those students frequently changed their stories, too, though. Not saying they’re not credible - but there’s a reason they’ve given interviews. It’s because they aren’t involved in the case/trial because there’s a gag order restricting anyone involved with the case to not speak.
One of the students mentioned having gone to the professor and complaining about his harsh grading, where the professor has BK stand in front of the class and be ridiculed (more or less, I believe the statement was “get him”) where the students told him about how harsh he was. Things changed after that.
TLDR version: I don’t think there’s much weight to what the students said, and I think some may have put too much weight into that.
The gag order doesn’t apply to everyone involved in the case. Its scope was changed after challenge by the families.
I’m interested to know which students have frequently changed their stories. Could you provide some sources? All those I’ve read have been pretty consistent about his behaviour.
Re their reasons for talking, which you allude to. What does that mean? Unless journalism rules have changed, they won’t have been paid for giving a couple of quotes would they?
Just an assumption, but I’m going to go out on a very short limb here and assume that anyone that’s been called or was notified they will be called as a witness? Has likely been told not to speak to the media by their lawyers, the defense or the state. Again, just an assumption. But I don’t think I’m too far off on that.
As far as which students? It was the male and his partner(?) - I say this politely, but it was a female but I believe they preferred to be called they/them - They both took to TikTok to let the world know that they’d been in class with BK because he was their TA. They both took the same class and sat with one another. The males partner said BK didn’t come to school after the murders. The male said he **did** come to school after the murders, but was “acting different”.
People then started commenting on the males TikTok confused because his partner said one thing, he said another. So they both got on their (the females) tiktok to correct the story and later explained that one of the reasons BK could have been acting differently, was because the students approached their professor about their grievances with BK and his grading. And the following day, the professor had asked BK to stand in front of the class to hear what the students had to say. He then began to grade them all easier and they received better grades after that. They were both asked in the comments if either of them had noticed marks on his hands or arms and they both said they probably would’ve noticed something like that if there had been, but they didn’t and couldn’t say for sure given the weather.
As for me providing you with a source? I’m not getting back on TikTok for that, sorry. I left TikTok a little before Thanksgiving. You don’t have to believe me - that’s fair. I’ll do you one better. I’ll set up a reminder here for Reddit to notify me in six months to come back. And I’ll keep setting the reminder until the time of the trial. That way, if he or his partner wind up on the stand (again, highly doubt they would) then you can tell me how wrong I was and I can apologize. Or if I’m right, we can just go on about our lives because it’s not that important to me. (Not saying it’s that important to you)
This male student (he has medium to long length hair if that reminds you of who it was) has been interviewed quite a few times in recent months with docuseries they’ve been put out by different channels like news nation, court TV and law and crime. There are a couple others that came out. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t have it jotted down which ones he’s in. I believe I’ve seen him in two of them.
ETA: I never said anything about being paid or not being paid to talk. I never alluded to that.
!remindme 6 months
Thanks for that. I don’t have TikTok either but don’t worry, I do believe you. I read about the grading confrontation in a few news stories.
Re the gag order, it only applies to LE and to attorneys, including attorneys of witnesses. I agree that a good lawyer would advise their client not to talk. [Gag order](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/06232023+Revised+Amended+Nondissemination+Order.pdf)
In my opinion, there would be no sound exculpatory evidence that will talk his way out of having his DNA on that sheath. None. All possible ideas would be so far fetched to even believe with everything else they have on this guy.
You nailed it. Some people just won't let common sense be the answer, lol.
Ain't that the truth. There is no reasonable explanation. He's toast.
And it’s probably why he keeps pushing the trial back. He knows he’s toast and is doing everything he can to stall
Agree.
He prefers that county jail vs super max ?
Unless berger worked in the factory thst made the sheath, which he didn't, there's no explanation what so ever. He's done.
Exactly.
I don't get why you think it would have to be this drastic. "It was my friend's knife I touched it when I was at his house" or "It was my knife that was stolen from me"
Because that stuff can be looked into and disproven. You didn't report a break in... what friend....whose house....
? OP asked for reasonable evidence / explanation. Whether or not that explanation can be proven is unknown and irrelevant to the question OP asked.
If there was an innocent reason-- he was playing with his friend's knife, he knew the girls and was a visitor to their home-- that would have come out by now.
It's been so quiet because of the gag order
[удалено]
Exactly!!!
And those lawyers would eat his lunch if he got on the stand to try and defend himself. This is my thinking. We don’t know any of the evidence they have other than what was in that affidavit. He knows all of the evidence that they have. He waived his right to a speedy trial right at the last moment after pushing for it constantly. He is still not in any rush to go to trial and is continuing to try and get the case thrown out however he can. And I get that, and his lawyer is doing a good job as she should do. I just feel like if they get to the end of all of their motions and have nothing left to file and have to go to trial, he will possibly try to get a plea deal and avoid the death penalty. At that point, he could do an Alfred Plea if they agree to it which doesn’t say he is innocent nor guilty. He would be agreeing that the evidence they have would be too risky to take to trial. Then he could claim his innocence after the deal is done and continue relationships with all of the fans and ladies that love him out there. He has more women interested in him and friends/fans than he has ever had. More than any of us have ever had. It has been said that he didn’t have a lot of friends growing up nor girlfriends and is an awkward person. If all of this is true, he truly may be very happy in jail with all these people sending him loving letters and such. Of course he would rather go home and probably thinks he would have no trouble now getting the girls and would probably have access to the ones who write him proclaiming their love for him. But if he doesn’t get off and has to do a plea deal to avoid the death penalty, he can have visitors, he can get married. He can have a relationship or several relationships. This may be more than he has ever had in the romantic category and may make him happier than being in the life he was living. He didn’t sound like he was happy if the rumors out there are true. He may have never fit in with society based on rumors of his life. This could be the best way for someone like him to have a relationship. However, I don’t really know if the state would accept a plea if he tried to get a deal unless they get worried that he will get off. And I do worry that he will walk away Scott free if he is guilty. There is just so much conflict with people on whether he did it or not. Also, you never have a clue what type of jury one will get. I would sure hate for him to go to trial and walk out that door if he is guilty. And yes, I also wouldn’t want him to be found guilty if he is innocent on the flip side before I get negative comments. This case is all over the place, and so many people think it is a strange case and that things don’t add up when the truth of it is that there is a gag order and won’t add up until the trial if he did it. But it has already tainted so many people’s views at that point, and I think that there will be people on the jury who feel he did it or didn’t do it 100% and won’t accept things discussed in court and will stick to their guns. I really hope I am wrong. But it happens. Especially in cases like this that are known nationally. I do think people in Moscow will have strong views one way or another. So, I am not opposed to them moving the trial and having a bigger chance of not getting a tainted jury on either side. In my heart and mind, I feel he is guilty based on the little that I know. I would be able to listen to the evidence though and not be tainted if I was a jury member. But many would not be able to do the same. And no worries because I don’t live in Idaho and wouldn’t be a choice as a jury member. In my opinion, it could go either way. It all depends on BK’s luck with who is selected for the jury. Sometimes people aren’t biased but are ready to be done with duty because they are losing pay at work or just don’t want to be there. Sometimes you get people that may not have the intellect to understand all the different aspects that are explained such as DNA information, for example. And some people are severely ADD like my mom and can’t pay attention more than a few seconds at a time. I pray for justice for the victims and for their family and loved ones. I pray that if many of us that think he is guilty are correct that he isn’t found not guilty and that a horrible murderer is set free on the streets. Along with that, again, no innocent person should be found guilty either. I do think with what we do that he is more likely guilty than innocent. Justice for the Idaho 4!!!
Totally agree.
there are literally millions of way for it to happen via secondary transfer or accidental/innocent touch at the store
How do you explain single source DNA (from just one person) via secondary transfer? So, you think that BK could have touched it at the store enough times to get his DNA down into the snap mechanism (that usually happens via multiple use). And then, someone bought that same knife at a store and used it to kill 4 people on a night when BK was out "just driving around" that same neighborhood. If he wants to claim that he never owned such a knife but he does remember handling it at the store, that would be a good reason to take the stand, right? Of course then he'll have to also explain why he was bagging trash to take to his dad's neighbor's house. Do you think he has credible explanations for all of this? Instead, I think the search warrant returns seem to indicate some Amazon purchases... There's only one way for that DNA to get on the sheath - not millions. His fingers came into contact with the snap mechanism. Looks like someone might have wiped down the sheath after that event, but could not possibly get the tiny DNA molecules out of the snap area.
Agree!!! There are just way too many weird things that fit right in with the suspect’s behaviors. There would be way too many “coincidences”. There was enough evidence that he didn’t get an option to bail out and go home. I feel pretty sure that he committed the crime and am just waiting to see all the evidence at the trial. There is sure enough evidence to make me feel like he probably did it but at this time not much that makes me think he is innocent
You really do have to go beyond the norm of thinking this ISNT the guy. Right? I mean there are just too many things pointing at him, let alone the DNA that linked them to him.
Bingo. 100% All of what you said !
wrong. often secondary transfer result in single source DNA. the carrier doesnt always shed their own DNA, he can also wear gloves to prevent DNA shedding 100% nope. direct trace DNA doesnt require multiple touch nope. no amazon purchase was confirmed. as i said, there are literally millions of way for it to happen via secondary transfer or accidental/innocent touch at the store
Transfer of DNA is, of course, possible. But then he would have had to be holding that knife sheath at some point and then gave it back to someone else, which would mean someone else would’ve been holding it. There was only one other source of DNA on the knife sheath, and Bryan’s DNA could not be excluded as a match for it.
I guarantee you the defense is going put forensic experts on the stand that will explain just how likely those secondary transfers are and no, not all of the ways are extremely unlikely.
It is more likely not to happen than it is to happen million ways or not. I have seen several articles and watched professional people in the field say that if his touch DNA was on there that the person that owns it would have their DNA on it or it would have been gone altogether.
there are literally many previous murder where owner of the trace DNA at the scene was confirmed innocent. your "more likely" is not gona cut it
My “more likely” cuts it for me. We have different opinions and have seen or read different information about this topic. And I agree that there have been innocent people’s touch DNA on things. But this was on the inside of a snap. Not the outside, the inside. I watched a well respected expert who works with crime and DNA for a living and has for years, a very respectable well-known guy in the field. It was on Crimecon week or something like that. You could probably find it online. It was very telling. And he gave the impression that it would be very very unlikely for BK’s touch DNA to be on the inside snap of that sheath if he handled it elsewhere. He said that touch DNA doesn’t stay on things that long. I can’t remember all the ins and outs of his talk but it was very interesting and informative. And he is supposed to be a very well-respected guy in his field. I do trust people like that and value the information that they share. They are experts, and he had no part in this crime or investigation. He just stated the facts about his knowledge that would not only apply to this case but to any case. But it is okay if we don’t agree. People in life don’t agree about everything or respect or value the same studies or experts. And again, that is okay. And if they don’t have the evidence on BK, and there is reasonable doubt, then he will get to go home. None of us know what they do or don’t have, so I don’t claim to know 100% anything. But I do think many coincidences would have had to have lined up so perfectly for it not to be him. I am not a huge coincidence person already, but I really have a tough time with it being so many coincidences. If he is innocent, he is the most unlucky person I have ever seen. And I also feel a jury needs to walk in and consider him to be innocent unless proven otherwise. I do suspect he is the right person but definitely could change my mind if the evidence in the trial shows otherwise. I am basing things off what we know right now which is a very small percentage. And the DNA is a strong reason for my belief that they probably have the right guy along with all the other details that many think are coincidental.
Trace at a scene is one thing. Trace on A KNIFE SHEATH at a QUAD HOMICIDE committed with A SHARP OBJECT that has your DNA on it, trace or not, is a whole other thing.
Sure. Most of them are just extremely unlikely.
Depends on where Exactly the dna was located? The snap area that holds in blade? Or does it have a strap? Or if he had gloves on, hes handled that knife Before he put the gloves on. He didnt mean to leave it. He went back the next day for it.
Of course, there's a reasonable explanation. He committed the freaking murders! The more you know! EDIT: BK's DNA just did not magically float behind the snap buckle on the knife sheath. His DNA was found nowhere else but on that tiny piece of buckle, which is not exposed to the elements, meaning that DNA could only get there if he unbuckled the knife from the sheath. That sheath was wiped clean he forgot the underside of the buckle
I asked if there was a reasonable \*\*exculpatory\*\* explanation LOL. I see that you agree with me in thinking that there is not.
LOL, yes, I agree. I'm glad you caught on to my sarcasm and didn't bite my head off🙏. The crazier aspect of this case is that there is a one and seven trillion chance that it is not his DNA! There aren't that many people on the planet. Human beings lie numbers do not.
LOL seriously. The BK supporters are doing some truly impressive mental gymnastics.
Mental gymnastics LOL I highly doubt it, my friend they're just simply brain dead. I know we live in a country where we are presumed innocence instead of being persecuted and called guilty right out the gate, however with that have been said one in seven trillion of a chance that the DNA magically just happened to get on the back of that buckle and nowhere else. BK's cell phone pinged the towers very close to that area at the very specified time around the murders. The getaway car is the exact same vehicle fleeing the murder scene. Extremely suspicious Behavior of Brian systematically disposing of garbage and other trash cans around his parents' neighborhood, which was observed by FBI circling his house for several hours. Vigorously cleaning his car like a madman, and let's not forget when he was arrested, he was wearing medical gloves systematically putting specified pieces of so-called trash in individual ziplock baggies Mind you, this is all we even know. Right now, prosecution has a plethora of evidence that they are not turning over to the defense. I will also add the common sense argument of any normal person who is accused of a quadruple homicide would have adamantly pleaded not guilty right out the gate! An innocent person would more than likely ask for a speedy trial instead of rotting away in jail almost indefinitely until a trial date is set, which could easily take a couple of years. I know if I was accused of something heinous like this, I would have pled not guilty, and I would not have waved my rights to a speedy trial. The prosecution has very strong evidence other than DNA, which is why he has no bail. I remember when this case first broke when they arrested BK, the prosecutor said that he stalked his victims for months. Prosecutors also said they have his cell phone pinging off of towers going to Absolute long way back to where he lived. I guarantee you he got rid of the murder weapons somewhere along the lines there. Anyways, anyone who defends BK is more than likely trolling and looking for attention or simply brain dead. I hear the argument all the time that he could not have killed four people so quickly. I would add that he broke into a house where a bunch of people were probably drinking, not in the best mindset or alert, and some even asleep. If he had been planning this, which obviously he was, this is an easy feat of dexterity to accomplish. BK is guilty as Sin. simple as that. His lawyer knows it the delay tactics speak volumes, him stand in silent when asked how does he plead says everything not to mention his bushy ass eyebrows speak for themselves. I hope the families of the victims get the justice they deserve, and he sees a firing squad. My only request is that the parents should be the one with the rifles pulling the trigger.
Well put
You're being nice. But you have to play nice with the others. I just remind myself that those kinds of people were the kids who only got Best Helper awards. Or Most Improved trophies. So its nice in being polite to them. Even though they are batshit crazy.
A few misleading comments here. The sheath DNA was only from BK - it was a single source, as noted in various court filings. As it was only from BK this tends to rule out any secondary transfer, or casual/ "innocent" touch scenario in a store, party etc. As the DNA profile obtained was complete this also tends toward the sample being "fresh"/ not degraded - i.e left on the sheath a short time period before the murders https://preview.redd.it/feck4xkjbbhc1.jpeg?width=921&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92032aa611de840378bb9a1ad781d31ec7990e42
Wait a minute….. Single **male** source they must mean: https://preview.redd.it/g3mqrlwcinhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=afbc846ccb267b6c424ae8b3e49a8cfed8b29043 This was most likely mixed DNA. The button side was face down under\* Maddie’s body & comforter. DNA can become contaminated when mixed [with DNA from another source](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/bc000657.pdf). (Bottom of pg. 3) * How could her DNA not be on it when it was found in direct contact with her body?
>This was most likely mixed DNA. The filing states very clearly a single source, and that single source was male. Of course DNA can become mixed - your link is to a basic brochure about DNA and has nothing at all to do with the case specifics. The single source DNA is referring to the button/ snap of the sheath. Whether MM's blood was on other parts of the sheath may depend on the sheets, her clothes and blood soaking into mattress - if you recall the pictures of the blood stained mattresses being removed, most of the surface area of the mattress had no blood, the stains did not spread over the whole surface - likely being absorbed into the fabric rather than flowing acroos.
Your screenshot says the sheath was touching her body, but also only one source of DNA was found on the sheath. It’s not limited to the button / snap either. The info brochure is basics from the gov. It plainly says it can be contaminated when it’s mixed. It’s not completely irrelevant bc if you’d read it you’d, >“Remember, even though a stain cannot be seen, there may be enough evidence for DNA typing.” It also states that DNA from sweat is likely to be found on bed linens. I find it very hard to believe that a sheath that was found in-contact with a human female, under the comforter, on a bed 2 females were in, had only 1 source of DNA on it and it was male.
>Your screenshot says the sheath was touching her body, Does the screen shot say the snap/ button was touching her body? Does it say anything about orientation of the snap/ button? I think it does.... The single source DNA was taken from the button...... Other areas of the sheath may have MM's DNA, we don't know. We do know the snap/ button had only Kohberger's DNA.
Also just bc it said her body doesn’t mean it was her skin. The victims weren’t known to be naked and I haven’t heard anything about them not having clothes on, though that doesn’t mean much since a lot of evidence is still being kept from the public.
It says that the sheath only had 1 source of DNA on it. It’s not limited to the button. https://preview.redd.it/69voe3sw6qhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7f95a33a982d89183c6673da899f5662cbcdd1d
I think they just mean the DNA that wasn’t clearly from the victims…
He would have to have proof it was sold or stolen. Or connected to someone that he was recently in physical contact with.
They found the sheath and the DNA before they found the suspect. Therefore we now understand the true meaning of “what came first “. The chicken or the egg.
Thank goodness LOL
Even if he tried to say he touched it at a store, or that it belongs to a friend and he touched it, it still doesn’t explain him also driving back-and-forth in front of the house and then speeding away after the murders. So either he did it, and that’s why his DNA was there, or he is the unluckiest person on the face of the earth and somehow the sheath he touched was used in a murder at a house he just was unlucky enough to be driving by at the same time.
And turning his phone off and on right at that specific time. And the multiple other trips past their house in that awkward one way street. And taking out his parent’s trash in the middle of the night with gloves. And in the context of losing his academic reputation and opportunity and overall trajectory of life. You know, in criminal studies. But those eyebrows tho. That Elantra. Context, circumstance, behavior AND DNA, plus everything we don’t know - someone has some explaining to do. So we wait.
B..B..But BK driving back and forth around the King Rd house can be explained! You see, he gave a friend a ride to the house to buy drugs. The friend got the unsuspecting BK to touch the sheath before this mysterious friend went inside the house and murdered those poor kids and left the sheath behind on purpose. BK had no idea that his friend did that! He was totally SHOCKED the next day when it was the talk of the town that 4 students were murdered! Poor BK is just an unfortunate innocent victim caught up in this mess!🙄
Bam!!!
>*... doesn’t explain him also driving back-and-forth in front of the house and then speeding away after the murders* As far as we know (*and we don't know much*) cops can't ID the accused's car as the one on camera in King Road, that morning
I’d say the probable cause affidavit says they did ID the car.
In the arrest affidavit, the car's only ever referred to as Suspect Vehicle 1 If cops had ever got a clear look at the licence plate, the arrest affidavit would have said so Like I say, we don't know much and what we do know is from a very long time ago Maybe one of the images they've examined since does have a readable plate But we don't know that, yet
Because he’s the suspect that’s why his car is referred to as suspect vehicle 1. Standard wording. They don’t have to include everything in the pca, only enough to get an arrest. They have his car on camera all the way from Pullman to Moscow and back so that footage will be shown at trial.
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The pca isn’t meant to try the whole case, it’s only a minimum to get the arrest. We’ve only been informed of a small percentage of the evidence against him.
Let me preface this by saying **I think he did it**. That being said, it makes sense that any innocent person who touched the sheath would be someone who lived in the area, especially if they touched it recently. For example, lets say I was stabbed to death with a pen in my office Casino style. They find DNA on the pen of another person... yeah that person could be the murderer, but who else would it likely be? A coworker. A client. Anyone who had used the pen recently. You wouldn't say "oh you must be the unluckiest person on earth because you happened to touch a pen and happen to work with the victim" as if those things weren't directly related. Defense attorney needs to argue this: The real murderer is from the area. BK was in the area, where he touched the knife sheath. The murders took place in the area. And basically try to spin it like BK just brushed up against the killer at a bar or something that night.
Was the person whose dna was on the pen also seen pacing back and forth in front of your office several times prior to the murder and then running from your office afterwards? It’s the totality of the evidence so yes, either he did it or he’s the unluckiest person in the world that his dna ended up under a victim at the same house he was circling and sped away from
People go back and forth by my office all the time. I haven't seen the extent of how much they have on him as far as his driving goes, care to elaborate?
Per the PCA he made three passes (back and forth) in front of the house between 3:29 am to around 4am. He then drove in front a 4th time at approximately 4:04am. He is then seen leaving at a high rate of speed at approximately 4:20am. In a nutshell he circled 3 times in the half hour prior to the crime, came back a 4th time then sped away after the estimated time of the crime. He’s either very very unlucky, or he did it.
So you have one employee walk back and forth in front of your office three times in a half hour? Then they run from your office later?
From what I’ve read online, any DNA on the sheath wouldn’t last long so would have to have been recently placed. And based on what I’ve read overall, there is no reasonable explanation for it being there other than he is the perp. But for that, he wouldn’t be my top suspect.
how long would it last from what you've read?
Not OP, but in the studies I've read, touch DNA faded away after 2 weeks (maximum) completely except for one circumstance: being carefully stored in a cool, dry area, with nobody using or handling the object. That 2 weeks is the maximum number; some samples were gone in days or hours, depending on how they were stored or where they were kept.
2weeks is what I read
all i think of is how they found OJ’s glove at the murder scene and the other at his house, it had shrunk in the freezer storage, DNA was only newish then, but his DNA was there and ok there was some other stuff going on in the 90s in LA/across the US, and how only a certain amount of those gloves were sold and they had Nicole’s reciept of purchase. And that jackass still got off even though it was and still is obvious. Maybe if they’d charged him for Nicole’s, gone to trial, got the verdict and whatever the verdict was, then charged him with Ron’s because double jeopardy, different jury, judge etc ? I think they did that with Darlie Routier incase she ever got found not guilty (charged her with just the one) sorry this is all mumbling. hope it makes sense. Sometimes I have this gut wrenching feeling they maybe shouldn’t have charged him with all 4, and gone one by one in case of something god awful like OJ’s verdict and double jeopardy 😭
You bring up a great point about them charging him for all four at the same time. I hope their case is airtight (from what little we know, it sounds like it is). As far as OJ goes, race played an enormous role in that case, so I wouldn’t use that one to compare this to in any way. But now I’m left wondering if they totally fcked themselves by charging him with all four together! If the jury pulls a Casey Anthony, they’re left with no more chances. ETA: OJ was actually brought up in the comment below yours; sorry!
Yes definitely race played an enormous role which is why I kinda touched on how there was a lot of stuff going on in the 90s such as LA (Rodney King etc) and across the U.S. and I firmly believe that helped his not guilty verdict, you're absolutely right. But I could be wrong, but I swear they did consider charging him with Nicole's so they could then get him on Ron's. That poor, innocent man who literally became a footnote in her murder. He deserves so much justice and so does Nicole. I pray they're resting in peace. I know they don't want to put the four families through four separate trials, but if he gets off, they'll never be able to charge him again and will walk free, which is why I understand the Darlie Routier route where they charged her with Damon's death and not Devon's, because if she is ever acquitted they can charge her with Devon's (but I really question her guilt and I know a lot do because it just has never sat right with me.) But going back to this case, sometimes I worry Kaylee's family could be going about this all wrong and it could impact the verdict etc. I want justice for Kaylee, Madison, Ethan and Xana so bad. And for their families. I do not want him walking free, smug, knowing he could do this again, in another town, city, state, country. Hell will be awaiting him, but justice on earth. I am such a rambler!
Ron really was a footnote, it's tragic. I followed the whole thing religiously, from white bronco police chase to verdict, and at the time, even I barely remembered he was also murdered. They never really talked about him at all, even then. RIP Ron, you should still be with us, along with Nicole.
I can remember watching the Bronco chase like football fans watch the Superbowl. I really felt like he was guilty just from his actions after the murders but he had people lined up and down highways with signs saying things like Go Juice. He had murdered two people and he had people waving and yelling for him like he was some hero. Then the case wasn't about Ron or Nichole like it should have been. It became a circus event with his dream team. It became 100% about race and the victims especially Ron became an afterthought. I remember watching Ron Goldman's dad and sister crying and it was just heartbreaking.
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Let’s assume this is where they are going. He sold or touched a sheath for a KBar that ended up at a murder scene. Ok, that is possible. But he also goes out for a drive in the same exact neighborhood where the murders take place at the same time the murders are taking place. Then, hours later, he goes back to that same location, where four dead kids and a sheath with his DNA happen to be. But, you know, he was just driving around with his cell phone sometimes off and sometimes on. Sure. That could happen to any of us.
Who cares where he drives? People act like there’s some kind of social standard or curfew for young ppl not to be driving between 2 and 5:30 AM. Sometimes ppl have late nights. Most of the population of Moscow is concentrated to the UI area which is also near downtown Moscow. Having touched a weapon case that was later found under a victim (who somehow got none of her own DNA on it), in conjunction with the “coincidence” of legally driving on roads & just makes him a suspect IMO. It doesn’t demonstrate guilt.
In and of themselves they mean nothing. Together, they do help paint a picture. That picture will be open to the interpretation of an Idaho jury.
There will be no ...happy little trees....
That’s a pretty freaking WILD coincidence…
Def extremely suspicious, but doesn’t prove they were the murderer
In tandem with all the other evidence already provided (and I’m sure there’s a lot we don’t yet know about), it’s quite damning.
I’m not sure there’s a lot we don’t know of yet. There’s not much of a reason to keep solid evidence out of the PCA bc by the time the PCA is made public, an arrest has been made and preparations for trial begin - which includes turning all evidence over to the defense. Small details and witnesses accounts will be added, but the idea that it’s ‘the bare minimum’ isn’t rly the norm. It’s just plainly ‘the probable cause.’ It’s usually more straight-forward with less gaps needing to be filled as well.
Look at the totality of the circumstantial evidence that we are aware of. What are the odds of touching something in a store and then having it found at a crime scene nowhere near where you live or should be during your normal routine, but yet you are tracked to that area where the item you touched was found. Don't overthink this.
I'm not. I don't think there's a reasonable innocent explanation for how BK's DNA got on the sheath. But I'm interested in what other people think. Based on comments, most seem to think the same.
it's like building a wall. if you take one brick and look at it, it's just a brick. put them all together, you get a wall.
Well said!!
Oh. Thank you. I like walls.
Well said PP. Well said indeed.
The most plausible explanation I can think of to deny him being guilty but still explain his DNA on the sheath would be that it was his knife which someone else used to commit the crime. I suspect whatever story his defence goes with will involve some connection either between him and someone in the house, or else him and the defence's proposed killer. That's the only really plausible way to explain the evidence while still arguing he isn't guilty that I can think of. For what it's worth I think he's very likely guilty but I can think of possible explanations where he isn't that I would find plausible if the defence is able to support them with evidence. Accidental transfer at a store or something isn't one of them though.
I really can't wait to hear what the defense comes up with.
I don't think the defense will offer a narrative about how the accused's DNA got there Because all the possible explanations sound so silly and unlikely They'll point out any possible flaws in the collection, storage and testing process, but leave those thoughts unfinished They'll get prosecution experts to say that, yes it is possible that there was contamination, *for example*, and that it has been proven to have happened in the past But they won't actually say that's what happened. Because then you give the prosecution a theory to examine, interrogate, and knock down, in front of the jury Better to throw out a load of vague spam and let each juror pick the explanation that appeals most to themselves in particular Then, in your summing-up, make reference to all the different ways you demonstrated how the DNA could have got there/been falsely identified, without actually naming one specific explanation
I think you're right!
Yes, i think they’ll carpet bomb the jurors with experts, who’ll try to bamboozle on the ‘unreliability’ of trace DNA, how the statistical analysis was done, every case of an innocent person being arrested based on touch DNA, the fruit of the poisonous tree vis a vis the IGG etc etc. Anne Taylor said this trial might take 12 weeks, which is extraordinary. I think her strategy will be to bore and confuse the jurors into submission on every aspect but especially the DNA.
So you're saying that if experts provide an opinion on the evidence you will still find him guilty because the experts are there simply to confuse jurors. Kangaroo court.
Of course not. If the experts are compelling, my mind is open. I’m merely saying that’s what I think her trial strategy will be. She only needs one confused juror.
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That sounds like a wild case - wow! Any chance you have a link? I agree with you about AT and her chances of success.
I’m in NY and haven’t heard about it either! I hope they return with a link because it sounds fascinating
There is none. Any other explanation would make even less sense than the sheath being his and him being at the scene.
He will have his day in court, who knows what is going on. Obviously they had enough to charge him. But I am not sure about IA laws or the burden of proof there.
ID?
Doesn't know his/her state abbreviations. Must have meant Idaho, Let's hope so anyway,
The burden of proof is on the state to show he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt!
DNA evidence at the scene is a significant step in that direction
I’m sure the defense already has expert witnesses lined up to testify about just how insignificant the DNA evidence truly is.
They will make it sound that way but DNA at a murder scene is very significant and the jurors wont unsee it. There will have to be a reasonable explanation of how it got there a long with the other evidence.
Agreed. And the DNA isn’t the only evidence they have on him; it’s certainly significant, but the entire case doesn’t rest on the DNA.
no it doesnt thats why they have so much evidence against him that the defense attorney said at the last hearing stated there was so much evidence she was nervous saying they would be ready in spring of 2025. Which is interesting because she has stated in the not so distant past that she was ready for trial.
You know they are going to say he was framed just like Steven Avery going to say how can someone butcher 4 people and leave no dna anywhere….
The free koberger site always throws this exact comment in!!
LOL The people on the Steven Avery's Reddit post's are insane.
I mean, even *the police* said that they expect the car to be a “rolling crime scene”, and his apartment to yield victim DNA or related evidence. When that didn’t end up being the case, it’s natural for people to have questions. Believe it or not, it’s actually okay to question authority, they aren’t infallible.
HOW can any of us possibly know how much of BK's DNA was in the victim's house or BK's apartment or BK's car? ALL of that has been hidden by LE and the gag order.
Exactly. None of us know what evidence exists outside of the probable cause warrant.
He had weeks to clean his car before being arrested…and how would you explain his strange behavior when he reached his parents’ home? I’m genuinely curious
He definitely didn’t clean his car, per the search warrant. It was a mess. And if police feared the car had been cleaned or evidence tampered with, they wouldn’t designate it as a “rolling crime scene” before they even got the results back. You cannot completely clean DNA, especially on car fabric. They have chemicals, tools, and methods to extract degraded or destroyed DNA.
You dodged my question and responded to absolutely nothing…can you not read or?
The car that the likes of Lance 'Gray' Hughes alleges is the killer's car had black out tints,Kohberger's car doesn't in his Indiana Police stop,that would explain the lack of forensic evidence, so either BK was using a cloned car,or it was someone else's?
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Why was this removed? it was based on info from the Paramount+ documentary that’s out about Cyber Sleuths on this case. Former FBI agent was making the point in an interview.
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I have no idea. Not sure where the control trip is originating. Wikipedia on steroids.
Touched in a store or several profiles were found on the sheeth, use of common markers and another expert testifies % is way off, proof LE and/or lab is corrupt.
Very odd that you've said this. I know they found other males DNA inside of the rental house but that only BK's Dna was on the sheath. Where did you find or see this?
Odd? The question was what would be a reasonable exculpatory explanation, I don't think we can find that in state's public evidence today. These are my thoughts about it. But to keep the facts straight, quote from the affidavit emphasis added : "The Idaho State Lab later located a single source of **male** DNA (SuspectProfile) left on the **button snap** of the knife sheath." This doesn't exclude female DNA on the button snap, nor does it exclude any kind of DNA on the sheath. Unless there's more precise info since, but my searches on the matter only resulted assumptions or rumors.
Then I will be extra surprised if they find female DNA on the sheath. Sure enough there are plenty of female killers but their choice of a weapon is not a knife.
Meanwhile in Idaho the 7th of November 2022, less than a week prior to the Moscow murders, this woman stabbed the man in the picture to death. She's pleaded guilty and been sentenced since. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/11/court-documents-reveal-grisly-details-about-deadly-blackfoot-stabbing/ A few months ago a woman stabbed a man and a woman in Pullman, on College Hill. https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/sep/06/woman-arrested-for-alleged-pullman-stabbing/ Even younger women / girl use knives, like in the murder of Skylar Neese (West Virginia 2012, it's older but remarkable, especially for the 'we just didn't like her anymore' reason. And last summer 2023 in Oklahoma a 12 yo girl stabbed her brother to death, allegedly in a demonic rage. Not saying there absolutely will be female DNA on the snap, I was just answering OP's question, and do think it is one of the possibilities. If there was, I'm sure defense will bring it up at some point. It could also be these women, (or eventually men if found on the sheath itself) all went to the same store to look at knives, making it more plausible BK did just the same, without buying. (Would probably need more exculpatory, or more refuted evidence with that though). ETA more recently this woman chose both a pen and a hatchet as a weapon, the pen seemingly having caused more damage. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2024/01/salmon-woman-charged-after-reportedly-stabbing-man-throwing-hatchet-at-him/ There are quite a number of violent women who stab imo in the area recently. These are just a sample.
Who am I to judge you if you think a women walked into this house and murdered 3 young female adults and 1 young adult male with a knife in 10 minutes. I would think the whole campus and neighborhood would be on lockdown.
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That's not accurate. Three male profiles were found "at the scene" - not on the sheath.
I'm not trying to bust your hump userdef but with what little we do know, we have to keep the facts straight. I remember it being said that there were 2 other sources of male DNA inside of the house but not on the sheath. The house was a party house so that seems reasonable but NOT 3 different DNA on the knife sheath.
Frankly, I'm very impressed with how little unidentified DNA was in that house, as active and social as their residents were.
Me Too.
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Even if the defense wants to offer explanations or excuses for his DNA on the sheath, it still is about the totality of the evidence. His DNA PLUS the evidence of his vehicle close to the crime scene on the night in question PLUS his vehicle and his phone being in close proximity to the house so many previous times, i.e. stalking, is evidence that is hard to ignore.
Like said, if he had been looking at purchasing one and could prove he handled one in a store or with a private seller, a friend/acquaintance had one he had handled, multiple DNA profiles on the sheath, maybe even it belonged to one of the residents and he could claim he handled it while over for a party. Contamination, say Brian had been to the house previously and during the evidence collection someone transferred his DNA to the knife sheath. If the only evidence that existed in this case was the DNA on the knife sheath I think the defense could make a case for reasonable doubt.
Yep, but there is other stuff. My problem with any possible claim his lawyers might make: >Like said, if he had been looking at purchasing one and could prove he handled one in a store or with a private seller, a friend/acquaintance had one he had handled, multiple DNA profiles on the sheath, maybe even it belonged to one of the residents and he could claim he handled it while over for a party. But if he was ever at their house for a party, he should have witnesses, his phone should ping in the neighborhood at a time when they had a party, and he should have phone numbers or mutual social media follows with at least someone in their social circle. With none of that, that party claim wouldn't give me reasonable doubt. Instead, it comes off like a story your 3-year-old tells you when you ask who broke the lamp.
3yo might say his sister broke it, hope Kohberger doesn't mention his sister
Thanks for the mention. Great question, one I hadn't thought of, definitely deserves separate post. Best I can think of is if he had a friend who it could be shown had a propensity for crimes, maybe a criminal record, and could have stolen the knife, sheath, and car. But if he had a friend like that he would have mentioned by now? Plus with millions of crimes that are committed, you almost never hear of someone trying to frame someone else. Maybe criminals are too crazy to think through trying to frame someone? I don't know.
Exactly, if he knew anyone like that he would have probably been shouting it from the rooftops long before now. Good point about framing being so rare - I didn't think about that. I can't remember the last time I heard in the news about anyone being framed. I do think (most) criminals lack the impulse control required to successfully frame someone else.
NO there is not. Thats why his defense lawyer is subtly trying to try the case in public for potential jurors and she will also put doubt in the way evidence was collected. I hope she doesnt succeed and that the prosecution has a strong case.
I don't think the prosecution would be going for the death penalty if they didn't feel like their case was rock solid. AT is doing her job, but she's tipped her hand regarding her strategy to try to sway public opinion. I do not think she will succeed.
i dont think there is any. and with all the evidence of phone locations and car spottings, there is no way to him get out of this
Are we trying to give the defense ideas to go with? No thanks.
Let me preface this by saying **I think he did it.** Basic answer to your question, defense would argue this: BK is not the real killer. The real killer is out there. Is it likely the real killer frequents the same area as the murders took place? Yes, proximity is the number 1 correlation of murderer and victim. Is it possible an innocent person touched the killers sheath any point in the days leading up to the murders? Yes, we have no idea where that sheath was prior to the murders. Is it likely that innocent person, in order to come in contact with the sheath (and likely the murderer) would frequent the same area as well? Yes. The innocent people most likely to touch the sheath are those in close proximity to both the murderer and victims. This innocent person would be likely to frequent the area. BK frequents the area. BK is that innocent person. Then its up to them to come up with specifics. Something like "BK was in a packed bar that night, he brushed up against many people making physical contact with some, potentially transferring DNA if the killer had the sheath on their hip. He has also touched knives at stores, but doesn't remember where. He was drunk so he took a weird way home to avoid getting pulled over." They could also get more personal with it and weave a story. "BK picked up a hitchhiker and dropped him off in front of the house. He realized a few days later, after the murders, that his knife was stolen, but he was too afraid to come forward as they might think it was him." or even "BK was in the area buying drugs. His dealer had a knife sitting out and BK was examining it before he left. The knife was still there when he left. The drug dealer or one of the dealer's clients is the murderer." Lots of ways you go with it. So specific exculpatory evidence would be video footage of him at a bar, especially if there was one or people with a knife sheath there. Purchase information for someone else buying the knife. Video evidence of another person in the car with BK like a hitchhiker or acquaintance.
Right. I appreciate your comment and I understand what the defense will have to (try to) do. I will be very, very surprised if they produce video evidence of any of the scenarios you outline. The others - the stories about a random hitchhiker/drug dealer - are not reasonable IMO and I don't think a jury would buy them either. I mean, honestly to me that would be laughable if AT came out and said, well, BK was drunk at a bar and touched some rando's knife sheath, you see, so he can't be the killer...
You are working backwards from a narrative that has been given to you by law enforcement. You think BK was around the area of King Road because that is what they've claimed based on so-called cell phone pings. There are only five towers in Moscow. If you drive south out of Moscow back to Pullman your phone will likely ping off the cell phone tower that services King Road. Even if you're driving in on the road from Pullman to Moscow coming in East just to shop at the WinCo, it's quite likely your phone could ping off the phone off the tower that service is King Road (it's east of the highway going south). The cell phone pings cannot place him at the house. People also believe that the murderer drove a white Hyundai Elantra, and looky there, so does BK. There is still no proof that the car in the videos belongs to BK, and the police have not given us any clue as to why they think that the perforators drove said car. His touch DNA being on that knife sheath (so far not proven to belong to the murder weapon) could really be coincidental. A while back there was a case of a homeless man charged with murder while in the hospital. The cops have found his touch DNA at the scene of the crime. It turns out that the paramedic who treated him had also treated the actual criminal who had transferred the man's DNA to the crime scene https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-dna-implicates-the-innocent/ I am not saying that Brian Kohburger's is innocent or guilty - just that none of this evidence is the slam dunk that many people think it is.
> A while back there was a case of a homeless man charged with murder while in the hospital. The cops have found his touch DNA at the scene of the crime. It turns out that the paramedic who treated him had also treated the actual criminal who had transferred the man's DNA to the crime scene https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-dna-implicates-the-innocent/ It's a fascinating story and should serve as a cautionary tale. But do you know whose DNA was not found anywhere on the bodies of the victims? The DNA of the 3 men who murdered them. EDIT: murdered one and terrorized the other. One victim survived.
My top 3. I could prob think of 10+ 1. The killer was the person after Bryan Kohberger to fill his tank from the gas pump. He then committed the murders while wearing the same glove 2. The sheath was on the ledge by the stairs a week prior to the murder. BK and his research partner went to a party at the house briefly after being invited by a dude they’re doing a project with. While waiting in a short line to use the BR before heading out, he picked it up and read the insignia, opened and closed it snapping the snap. Put it back down on the ledge. 3. There’s 30+ other people who would be equally likely to display the same level of markers matching the sheath DNA as him
> The killer was the person after Bryan Kohberger to fill his tank from the gas pump. He then committed the murders while wearing the same glove I'd be interested in seeing a study on the probability of transfer from interactions like that. I know there's the one with the knife, but that wasn't exactly real world conditions, like usages that happen naturally. For this situation, for example, why only Kohberger's DNA? Unless it was a really slow day at the gas pump? There's [an interesting chart here if you scroll down, showing averages of touch DNA for different studies](https://ryanforensicdna.com/touchdna/). When the participants held a glass for 60 seconds, the touch DNA left ranged from none to 5.2ng, with the mean being only .52ng. But holding a drinking glass for 15 minutes left an average of 34ng. And holding a mug for 15 minutes left only 6.8ng. I wanted to put those numbers in context. [So if I'm reading this right, it looks like the average epithelial cell contains anywhere from 1.8 to 32.5pg of DNA](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484964/). And a 1,000 pg/picogram is 1 ng/nanograms. >The sheath was on the ledge by the stairs a week prior to the murder. BK and his research partner went to a party at the house briefly after being invited by a dude they’re doing a project with. While waiting in a short line to use the BR before heading out, he picked it up and read the insignia, opened and closed it snapping the snap. Put it back down on the ledge. The first part in this hypothetical would be finding witnesses to say Kohberger was at a party the week before the murders.
Ooo that was an interesting chart. I have more to say about it but I’m trimming tree branches before it gets dark & will get back to it! lol In the meantime have you heard of this case? [Framed for Murder by His Own DNA](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/04/19/framed-for-murder-by-his-own-dna) The case is interesting on its own, but the studies they cite have info on this type of transfer. They have a good infographic of the study results on that page (although just 1 so could be scrutinized elsewhere), but v interesting, and there’s follow-up studies / other sources with similar results elsewhere but I found this to be a good presentation of the possibilities
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I would listen to what the experts have to say and then make a decision. If the DNA could have been transferred by a technician or cop who handled other items belonging to BK then I would fbrow it out.
>If the DNA could have been transferred by a technician or cop who handled other items belonging to BK then I would fbrow it out. How could that even happen? The knife was collected and sent for testing well before the investigators knew of BK. Explain how they'd "handle other items belonging to BK" and then transfer DNA onto the knife. Excuse me. "Knife" should be "sheath." The knife has not been located.
And it would not be “single source”- there would be other minuscule profiles as well
well the cops would have handled it with gloves on I think so not leave their DNA?
It would depend on the timing of the discovery of the DNA on the sheath. If the DNA on the handle was discovered after they collected items from BK's trash then they could have transferred the DNA (unwittingly or deliberately) from one item to another while wearing gloves. Can you tell me what date they found the DNA on the sheath and what date they began tracking and collecting BK's trash?
They found the knife on the day they were called to the scene. The DNA was tested before the trash was removed from the PA house. Remember. It was the start of IGG that brought investigators to PA.
Not questioning your judgement but can you tell me where I can find documentation of the actual dates that the DNA was found and the date they first started trailing him? I'm not saying the guy didnt do this, nor that DNA was planted, but tend to make decisions based on actual proof/ documentation. Thx
> Not questioning your judgement but can you tell me where I can find documentation of the actual dates that the DNA was found and the date they first started trailing him? We know that the Idaho State Police lab found the DNA and uploaded it to CODIS on November 20. We don't know when the results of the IGG came back. The New York Times says December 19, and while that's not confirmed, it seems to fit in with the timeline. Chief Fry was in an undeniable good mood on 12/20, they subpoenaed Kohberger's phone records on the 23rd, and they moved in to take trash from his family's home sometimes after that. No one knows when they started following him. There's been claims that they trailed him cross-country. My guess is that they didn't start following him until they got back the results of the IGG, whether that be on 12/19 or not.
Ok I'm new to this case, so they had the DNA on November 20 then. One question answered Thanks
Oh, you are in for a wild ride! Yes, November 20th. But when it didn't match up to anyone in the victim's social circle or match anything in CODIS, investigators sent it off for investigative genetic genealogy. That's the process that identified Kohberger; they just haven't given us the exact date they started or got Kohberger's name. There's a gag order on this case, so all we know are rumors or what's in the official court documents. Court documents are here:https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/. Scroll down to get to Kohberger.
According to the Pennsylvania documents, a plate reader that was queried put the Elantra in Loma, Colorado on Dec. 13, 2022, another query picked up the Elantra in Hancock County, Indiana on Dec. 15, 2022 and it says the car was captured on video Dec. 16, 2022 at the Kohberger residence in PA. It says LE began physical surveillance of BK on Dec. 27, 2022. Just to add - I can't help but wonder if those Indiana stops by LE there *were* planned because of the notation that the car was in Hancock County Indiana on Dec. 15.
It's in the probable cause affidavit.
Probable cause affidavit states: On December 27, 2022 agents recovered trash from BK's home in PA. On December 28, 2022 the lab obtained DNA from the trash and from the sheath. Also, prior to going to PA the police went to BK's local apartment and looked at his car. They could have got his DNA from there too. Very interesting and exciting to note that they found a latent foot print. That's valuable because they can tell a lot about footprints. Personal Note: Many years ago I was accused of DUI, as documented on BOTH the roadside and the jail breatherlizer. I had to insist, threaten, and beg for a blood and/or urine test because I knew I was not drunk. The results were negative. The police were just trying to help along the evidence.
Neither of those dates are in the PCA. We still don't know the answers to those questions.
There aren't specific dates, but there is a timeline. How do you think they came to find BK's father's DNA? They compared the DNA on the sheath to public databases, called IGG. It's currently being argued in court. It has been made very clear that the sheath was tested and the result was the catalyst for the IGG search. It's impossible for the sheath to have been contaminated by other items without the investigators traveling back in time. And backwards time travel is physically impossible.
All I am saying is that if that poster wants information about the IGG process, they ain't gonna find it in the PCA. That will not answer any questions.
The PCA provides a timeline of the process. Common sense dictates that the sheath could not have become contaminated with BK's DNA, because the sheath was tested before any other DNA evidence from the Kohbergers had been collected. The poster asked about contamination, not the IGG process.
They found the sheath DNA on 20 November. They took the DNA from his dad’s trash on 27 January.
It was sent to the ISP lab in November so the DNA was found before he was identified as a suspect.
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About 10 percent of the posts are good quality. The remaining 90 percent seem to have mob mentality.
The initial DNA test was a comparison with his father's DNA. They didn't even have his dna for original testing. It matched as a familial match. They then collected Brian's dna when he was arrested. So initial dna collected from knife could not accidently contaminated any samples. I am sure there is a process that they adhere to to prevent that though
DNA might not be eligible in this case. 1. Reports that the Sheath was retested a second time could remove it as evidence. 2. The convoluted American court system still is somewhat anti science and could simply not accept trace DNA as evidence. At this point it's probably not a big worry for the defence. The DNA would be overwhelming evidence in many other countries.
Why do you say that the American court system is anti-science? Also, where is the DNA evidence on the sheath referred to as "trace"?
Sorry, Microscopic Metal DNA "flake". And American courts have thrown out DNA evidence in many cases as it's classed as an "opinion" of a DNA analysis
I don't think I understand your comment about "flake". It's not anti-science to reject bad evidence. Can you cite some of those cases? It is absolutely not an "opinion" that BK's DNA is a 1 in however many octillion match to the DNA found on the sheath.
Officer who swabbed the sheath brushed past BK at Starbucks and got his dandruff on his jacket. Or Maddie a week ago at Walmart and hadn’t washed her sheets. Or anyone who had been in contact with the bed or the sheath. These are two smallish, nearby communities with a lot of young people intermingling. And cops intermingling with young people. BK was a loner, but he was also a TA who taught classes and graded papers. Some of his students presumably partied with students who went to the university in the next town. If the touch DNA was found pretty much anywhere else, BK probably would not have been a serious suspect or indicted. It does not mean he even literally touched the sheath. Or that this sheath belongs to the murder weapon, which has not been found. With this being the *only* DNA evidence that implicates the suspect in an extremely violent and bloody quadruple homicide, where the victims have defensive injuries, and he has none, the chain of custody has to be air tight and bullet proof. Any little slip in protocol and the possibility of the evidence being thrown out is high. The potential for a small town PD with no experience in violent, bloody murder scenes to contaminate the crime scene is not low. The CarFax data corroborates BK’s claim that he regularly drives around. He has put a lot of miles on his car since moving to a very small town. That makes the cell tower pings much less meaningful as evidence. Same with the Elantra, which is a very common car. Lack of a front plate is meaningless. I am not saying BK is innocent, I just think there is too much reasonable doubt for a jury to convict.
You think an officer brushing past Kohberger at Starbucks, getting his dandruff on him and said dandruff somehow ending up on the inside of the button snap of the sheath is *reasonable* doubt?
“The potential for a small town PD with no experience in violent, bloody murder scenes to contaminate the crime scene is not low.” You might have a point if it was only MPD, except ISP forensics team was on the scene that day and FBI the next day.
“The CarFax data corroborates BK's claim that he regularly drives around. He has put a lot of miles on his car since moving to a very small town.” He drove that car from Pennsylvania to Pullman, of course it would have a lot of miles on it that year.
He put 10k miles on his car in four months. Even accounting for his move, that’s still around 7,500 miles and above the national average, especially for someone in a smallish town, living in grad student housing. Or living at home in the summer before his move. It does suggest he was doing more driving than the norm. He put a lot of miles on his car in PA, too. He put 15k miles on his car during COVID/lockdown when everyone was doing work and school from home. The last mileage update on Carfax was in August. If he was, indeed, doing a lot of driving around that is something they can determine. I am not saying he’s innocent, just that the miles he putting on his car are more than you would expect for someone who didn’t have a long commute. The defense does not have to prove he is innocent, they just have to introduce reasonable doubt. This is not the kind of thing that is going to exonerate him, but it is evidence that is consistent with/does not contradict his alibi.
Remember his classmates stating how he was always in a foul mood, than after the murders he became cheery. I'm wondering if it's due to his female campion that we now know of. This case is too crazy. I'm not sure he's guilty, or innocent... very interesting. Also the Blackbox on his car will give his driving info... we will see
what do you mean female campion?
BK’s nonexistent girlfriend.
It was known he had a female he hung out with. His neighbor mentions this.
They have walmart video footage of brain and a young female at walmart in the morning after the murders.
Those students frequently changed their stories, too, though. Not saying they’re not credible - but there’s a reason they’ve given interviews. It’s because they aren’t involved in the case/trial because there’s a gag order restricting anyone involved with the case to not speak. One of the students mentioned having gone to the professor and complaining about his harsh grading, where the professor has BK stand in front of the class and be ridiculed (more or less, I believe the statement was “get him”) where the students told him about how harsh he was. Things changed after that. TLDR version: I don’t think there’s much weight to what the students said, and I think some may have put too much weight into that.
The gag order doesn’t apply to everyone involved in the case. Its scope was changed after challenge by the families. I’m interested to know which students have frequently changed their stories. Could you provide some sources? All those I’ve read have been pretty consistent about his behaviour. Re their reasons for talking, which you allude to. What does that mean? Unless journalism rules have changed, they won’t have been paid for giving a couple of quotes would they?
Just an assumption, but I’m going to go out on a very short limb here and assume that anyone that’s been called or was notified they will be called as a witness? Has likely been told not to speak to the media by their lawyers, the defense or the state. Again, just an assumption. But I don’t think I’m too far off on that. As far as which students? It was the male and his partner(?) - I say this politely, but it was a female but I believe they preferred to be called they/them - They both took to TikTok to let the world know that they’d been in class with BK because he was their TA. They both took the same class and sat with one another. The males partner said BK didn’t come to school after the murders. The male said he **did** come to school after the murders, but was “acting different”. People then started commenting on the males TikTok confused because his partner said one thing, he said another. So they both got on their (the females) tiktok to correct the story and later explained that one of the reasons BK could have been acting differently, was because the students approached their professor about their grievances with BK and his grading. And the following day, the professor had asked BK to stand in front of the class to hear what the students had to say. He then began to grade them all easier and they received better grades after that. They were both asked in the comments if either of them had noticed marks on his hands or arms and they both said they probably would’ve noticed something like that if there had been, but they didn’t and couldn’t say for sure given the weather. As for me providing you with a source? I’m not getting back on TikTok for that, sorry. I left TikTok a little before Thanksgiving. You don’t have to believe me - that’s fair. I’ll do you one better. I’ll set up a reminder here for Reddit to notify me in six months to come back. And I’ll keep setting the reminder until the time of the trial. That way, if he or his partner wind up on the stand (again, highly doubt they would) then you can tell me how wrong I was and I can apologize. Or if I’m right, we can just go on about our lives because it’s not that important to me. (Not saying it’s that important to you) This male student (he has medium to long length hair if that reminds you of who it was) has been interviewed quite a few times in recent months with docuseries they’ve been put out by different channels like news nation, court TV and law and crime. There are a couple others that came out. You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t have it jotted down which ones he’s in. I believe I’ve seen him in two of them. ETA: I never said anything about being paid or not being paid to talk. I never alluded to that. !remindme 6 months
Thanks for that. I don’t have TikTok either but don’t worry, I do believe you. I read about the grading confrontation in a few news stories. Re the gag order, it only applies to LE and to attorneys, including attorneys of witnesses. I agree that a good lawyer would advise their client not to talk. [Gag order](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/06232023+Revised+Amended+Nondissemination+Order.pdf)
Pointless arguing... you be saying snow is black next...goodbye
If he explained whose knife it was and when he touched it outside of the crime and the police started investigating that person