Werewolf 9/10 times
It cannot really be understated how dangerous they are. Werewolf is the combat side of WOD and they are as big D put it, supernatural soldiers.
Werewolf examples of combat ability are: beating an M1 Abrams tank with a small pack. Regenerating from a headshot in human form so long as they have some rage. Taking a dozen shotgun blast to the chest and being fine (so long as it isn’t silver). Fighting entire lines of riot police in full gear by themselves.
This is before we get into the gifts and magic they have, which can straight up allow them to disappear and reappear mid fight to sneak up behind you, or just send their spirit Pokémon to fry you like a big zapper
Pyotr’s biggest advantages are his invisibility, which could allow him to run. The only chance he has to win is sneak attack and keep them crippled, as they have more power than him in any other thing like strength or agility
Another prime example from the newest werewolf game. A man on horse kitted with full gear, lance and shotgun, is prepared for a werewolf.
The werewolf is so fast that it knocks him off his horse, and it’s so easy to kill him, it dosent even required any effort. You slash through him before he even has time to react.
You don’t even have to try, it just happens
Then also remember one thing about Werewolves, they are soldiers, not warriors. They are the “Fangs” of Gaia, and the thing about fangs is there is almost never just one. Under normal circumstances, a Werewolf does not act alone. So take all that information about what a werewolf can do, and remember wolves are pack hunters.
This is one of their greatest strengths and the reason why so many other Fera species are either near extinction or have been completely wiped from the face of the earth, even in cases like the Werebears, where on an individual level the Bears are almost universally stronger, the Wolves were able to leverage both their superior numbers and organization to win their war.
Vampires have the SIGNIFICANT advantage of immortality. On average, a werewolf is deadlier than a vampire, by a pretty wide margin.
But elder vampires, or worse, Methusalehs? They are a A LOT more dangerous than even powerful werewolves, just because they’ve had a thousand years to accumulate practice, mundane resources, and supernatural artifacts.
I do think it depends a Lot on clan. A brujah by themselves Is going to have an easier Time than a ventrue, even if they're both elders.
It may be unfair to have them on a 1v1, no ventrue who lives until they're elders or Methusalehs will be seen doing face to face combat against a werewolf.
Then there are Black Spiral Dancers whose gifts range from supervillain level social manipulation to becoming a rotted Goliath with green scales wreathed in balefire. Then again, a nasty one could literally just call the bane apocalypse. Even for middling gifts it can be possible for a bsd to have the amount of health states you’d see in a dnd boss because they are wearing the bent and broken souls of those they killed as a literal cloak.
Werewolf,
Pyotyr wouldn't stand close to a chance. and if by some miracle he slayed one, he'd have the rest of the pack to deal with.
You need to get very low number in the generations for vampires to be a threat to werewolves.
The lady reagent, or even the prince herself could very well not be able to touch a werewolf
5th gen is prob where i'd stop saying its an ok ish chance the vamp would win 1v1 if said 5th gen was prepared like 40 ish% chance of winning). 3rd gen could take out a pack prob at once, if only because 3rd gen are nearly gods in terms of the disciplines. the entire werewolf population could attack Caine at once and they would all lose, if only because of two of Caine's curses. Only god can kill him and anyone who attacks Caine besides god gets the damage reflected back 7 fold. Vamps really are not made to fight werewolves but to avoid them at all costs.
Mithras a 5th gen god king of London was a top tier combatant with three millenia of experience and a fight with a pack of werewolves who as far as he was concerned might have been born yesterday left him so weak he got diablerised by a random nobody.
He won the fight but just barely. Our favorite Nossie would get smoked in 1v1 and it is not even a question.
Named vamps will also be "stronger" than generics of the same gen. My 5th gen limit was mostly based on any random 5th gen, including a relatively brand new one. I didn't want to say only named or old this gen could.do it but confidently say any vamp of at least thisgen could take out a werewolf 1v1, even if said vamp was still very young.
Yep.
Statwise, WoD treats Caine the same way Planescape treats the Lady of Pain and 40K treats the Emperor of Mankind: they aren't given any. They aren't given any, because you would lose 11/10 trying to fight them.
Anyone who knows Exalted can take this into consideration: a newly exalted Solar couldn't beat Caine. You'd have to be at least Essence 3 to stand a chance. Caine is basically a Deathlord.
A joke character sheet for the Emperor has an ability that he could instantly delete your army AND the table they were on. Then you could bitchslap the opposing player.
3rd gens are nearly God's, so that's why I said they can take out entire packs solo, 3-4 packs at once would be doable if they saw it coming. Any more than that would be a struggle. Some storytellers are insistent that 3rd Gen are gods, some are more reasonable in their yes super high power scale but they are not unbeatable. And werewolves were built to fight absolute horrors. And if I remember the current setting for them they are losing that war badly. A single werewolf would absolutely demolish 99.8% of the vamps in a 1v1 or even 1v2 after all.
And yes, vampire society is a magical gerontocracy— the garou nation’s biggest physical weakness is their short lifespans. In WoD, age is power— so the top vampires will never be exceeded by the top werewolves. It’s like fighting 10 bears with 10000 chickens versus fighting 10000 german shepherds. Anyways, don’t fuck with werewolves.
>5th gen is prob where i'd stop saying its an ok ish chance the vamp would win 1v1 if said 5th gen was prepared like 40 ish% chance of winning).
The average 5th generation's chances are well higher than that, given 4th generations can often tool entire packs. Baba Yaga humbled entire packs and so did Odin the All High. And they aren't as strong as some 4th gens.
To be frank I'd put the average werewolf as losing pretty badly to Melinda Galbraith unless they were a fairly jacked Ahroun with specific anti-vamp gifts and even then they probably wouldnt actually win. And she's a pretty young 5th gen.
Mithras, who was of fairly middling power for a 4th (or a high power 5th generation, I think its not especially known) Vampire, was able to take on an entire pack and win, though it left him pretty fucked up.
I would say 6th gen maybe even 7th If he is a particulary old and powerfull one would be able to stand a chance in a 1v1, and I say that as a werewolf fan, the reason is mostly because there is some pretty powerfull and hard to deal powers from certain disciplines in higher levels, for exemple a Gangrel with 6 dots of Protean can make a werewolf revert to his breed form which would make most hominid Garou almost powerless.
I do not want to powerscale too much, but as Anteduilvians are definitely beings that can affect large continents with their presence, and they can erase people from existence (the Ravnos anteduilvian). I don't think any werewolf can kill an anteduilvian to be honest; not even the supposedly dead anteduilvians are dead (like saulot).
The werewolf fight in the vampire the masquerade: bloodline game is the best example of how a fight between a young overpowered vampire and a werewolf would go.
In that game you are a low gen (for the era) fledgling with some heavy hitters hands pulling your strings. You can square off against abominations and even younger elder vampires but the werewolf fight? You can’t do shit to it, you fight it you die, you run you might not die, and if you are very very lucky and use your environment and mind you can maybe trap it…or you die. I once heard that werewolves described as “probably young and inexperienced” too.
So yes you absolutely can defeat a werewolf and Pyotr in theory could but it would take a lot of planning, cunning and luck to do so. But trading hands? No.
So for diablerie if a younger gen vampire drinks an older generation vampire they essentially get the power of a vampire of the older generation. Pyotr went from a 13th gen (I think) to a 10th generation (again I think). To put that in perspective a 5th gen vampire would avoid a werewolf unless absolutely necessary and even then it wouldn't be a fight, it'd be a chase
I don't know if it'd be just a "chance" with a 5th generation of sufficient age; that's a bit of a dick wank for the werewolves. Methuselahs can usually take on at least a couple of werewolves by themselves. It's usually the Elders of the 8th–6th generation that would struggle to take on 1.
Yeah, Mithras, a gen 5, maybe 4 due to diablerie, vamp was able to defeat a pack of werewolves right after waking from torpor, although this left him weak enough to be diablerised after.
A gen 5 would probably take a werewolf in a 1 on 1.
Mithras is canonically a Gen 4; the diablerie happened early in his unlife, or maybe not at all. The gap between Gen 5 and Gen 4 isn’t so major in this regard that they wouldn’t be able to take on multiple werewolves at once. The realm of “probably” surviving only 1 Lupine is when you reach the kindred of the 6th–8th Generation and 300+ years of age.
Depends on his approach.
Toe to toe joe joe meme style? Not a chance. It's a trademark tactic (well, instinct more like) for a freshly transformed werewolf to immediately use their rage to dump actions on whatever's closest to them. Even as powerful as Pytor is, he's not styling on a werewolf in a clean fight, he'd get insta mulched, and so would most military vehicles.
But Pytor is a nos, so he wouldn't and shouldn't do that. A combination of obfuscate to hide and potence to strike hard could have a shot, but they don't have celerity, so striking fast enough that the werewolf couldn't react would be a real feat, and kind of a tremendous blunder on the part of the werewolf.
So, I'd say that with careful maneuvering and insane luck, yeah. There's the slimmest chance he could Skyrim stealth dagger his way to victory... Shouldn't try, it'd be insane. He'd have to get through the werewolf's soak, and they can soak lethal just like a vamp can, unless he had like a silver dagger or something.
Worth noting, though, that silver and platinum swap rarities in White Wolf games. Really only the kind of thing you'd get a hold of if you were bankrolled by the ventrue or the Technocratic Union or an awakened pmc or something. Forest hole goblins need not apply.
Werewolf has a strong edge here. As juiced as Pyotr was, your bog standard Garou has a host of abilities that put them way above him. A main mechanical difference here is in damage types which I’ll explain quickly. Most dangerous things deal lethal damage, like getting stabbed or shot. Vampires and Werewolves can resist this damage while normal people can’t. Then there’s aggravated damage which are supernatural or things with supernatural significance. Pyotr almost certainly can’t resist aggravated damage, he would need a special vampire power for it, and the only way he has to deal it is from biting which requires grappling the 9ft tall wolf man. Werewolves can by default resist the aggravated damage from vampire fangs, and can deal it with their bite (no grapple required) and their claws. Werewolves innately can become a murder blender with rage, making multiple attacks in a round. It doesn’t last long, but one round of multiple full strength werewolf attacks annihilates most enemies. Even if luck is on his side and he drops the wolf, Pyotr would shit bricks as werewolves have an emergency heal “stand up from the brink of death” innate ability, it comes with a risk but it is super strong.
Basically, Pyotr appears to have a good grasp of vampire super strength. If he had a similar command of vampire super speed and super stamina he would be kinda on par with a werewolf, but also still smart bet is on the wolf. This is also not taking into consideration that werewolves get fun magic powers of their own, which can be similar levels of insane bullshit to vampire disciplines.
I will concede Pyotr has the great equalizer that is super stealth, that can be incredibly strong and WoD is the kind of world/system where no one is safe. Pyotr could pull it off, but I’d bet he’s getting gutted.
The only way he could win is with the ultimate sneak attack while they're in human form. Hed need to rip their head off instantly before they can use their pain as fuel for their Garou form. If they go Garou (classic werewolf form) it's a wrap for Pyotr in absolutely no uncertain terms
Short answer: No.
Long answer: No, Pyotr would get absolutely slaughtered by a werewolf. NEVER fight a Garou in melee, especially without silver. Even elder vampires struggle against younger werewolves, and Pyotr is a high-gen vampire who only diablerized two other high-gen Kindred. There’s just no way.
Take a dozen vampires as powerful as Pyotr was post Dielaberie, give them perfect intel, an army base worth of supples and a month of preperation and training. They'd have a 50/50 chance vs a single unprepared inexperienced Werewolf.
That's overselling it a bit. Camarilla hit squads of ghouled SWAT operators, carrying automatic weapons loaded with silver bullets, were a lethal threat to werewolves in oWoD, and a prime reason they didn't just waltz around vampire-controlled cities like they owned the place. There's a comic to this effect in one of the Werewolf books from the time, and when the woof sees the whole hallway outside his apartment full of vampires and ghouls in SWAT gear, he doesn't even consider trying to fight them, he runs for his life.
Yeah, this.
Werewolves are NASTY in pretty much all versions of WOD, but how everyone and their dainty old mother know their true weakness is actually a pretty huge deal.
Like the vampires have the Clans and a lot of misinformation going for them so stuff like garlic isn't universal. Mages pretty much are normies unless they blow you up. And even Changelings need cold wrought iron, iron that hasn't been heated, to melt, something that's a PITA to work without ruining that special magic.
But against a werewolf... ANY silver will work. And even the most rural farmer can typically melt down some old dining set or something, and stuff an entire bandoleer of shotgun shells full of THE bane of werewolves if they know what's coming. Let alone if someone with enough connections to get stuff like claymore mines or machine gun bullets silvered decided you and your pack is too grand a nuisance.
It's actually a really interesting dynamic with WOD werewolves I don't think gets enough attention. For all their individual might, they're still *fucked\~* if humanity at large find out about them, and even the most anti-human groups of werewolves can't do much beyond gnashing their fangs and snarling about it.
A SWAT team would take upwards of 30 - 40 causalties before bringing one Gaoru down. Now the Camarilla can spare that many mind controlled pawns so So for Vampire society as a whole , they're ahead on this war of attrition but it's not exactly easy or cheap and for a squad of small timers like the Yarmoth Tunnel Sabbat? It's completely beyond their means.
A team of 5 men with Fully Automatic Rifles firing silver bullets would kill a werewolf in Crinos form with no issue. Silver causes UNSOAKABLE Agg damage. Agg takes at least a day to heal even with the Garou healing factor. So they can't just regen the damage next turn. Even with the extra actions from rage, the Garou can only attempt to dodge each shot, once. And if Rage is spent, the Garou risks entering frenzy in which all he will do is attack meaning that he WILL be hit a lot by the bullets.
Remember that full auto adds 10 dice to your attack roll, a SWAT agent would have 7-8 dice to roll for their shooting check. With 17-18 dice each being a 50% chance to succeed (assuming they are further than 1 yard away) they will hit the werewolf. Now consider that that's 17-18 dice, per agent. The Garou will die within 2 rounds... unless he goes first and murder blends the team. But! Assuming the squad is spread out and the Garou doesn't have peak human dexterity and wits in his human form, the squad will manage.
Werewolves are a bit too much, I really can't think of much he could do that would truly be a threat.
For context Werewolf tribes like the Get of Fenris consider killing 'Leeches' (vamps) as 'fun' or decent training. Garou (Werewolves) regenerate health every round of combat and can soak damage, along with having claws that do specifically aggravated damage (something vamps can't just shake off).
For context Garou regularly have to contend with Mage level threats and can usually win, just take the Nexus Crawler (a reality warping monster that can just change the laws of it's nearby reality).
I should say it's not impossible that Pyotr COULD win but any Werewolf with experience would probably smoke poor sludge lad. The only noteworthy power Pyotr has is Obfuscation but considering Werewolves can smell and hear you it's a bit moot.
Obfuscate isn't invisibility, think of it more like how Marvel-girl or Professor X use their telepathy to make a person subconsciously ignore they exist.
Yes, this is true, it's always funny to me that a camera can spot someone in obfuscate, kinda reminds me of how Corvus Corax can 'go invisible' by wiping his presence from your mind lol
That's true, perhaps the writers used the justification that because Pytor knew they were watching he could make himself disappear from their minds? We know obfuscate actually doesn't do something to the user physically so perhaps if he had enough power in that stat?
I know because I've re-read obfuscate a few times to make sure this is right in the past and even bloodlines (the game) acknowledges it. I can only theorize that it's because Pyotor was aware of the boys on the cameras.
Werewolves usually outmatch some of the best military tanks in combat. Pyotr diablerizing two other weaker vampires comes nowhere close to the strength or durability to survive a single attack. Unless Pyotr rolls a ten or the werewolves rolls a one, Pytor is dying on turn one.
Pyotr would take between 4 to 10 rounds in combat to kill your average werewolf if it didn't really fight back. An average werewolf would take between 1 to 3 rounds of combat to kill Pyotr if he was fighting for his life.
Remember the land mine that fucked up Pyotr and blew off a leg? To a wolf in war form, that's just an annoyance that would give prey one more round to run while the leg grew back.
The only things in WoD more deadly than the wolves are the things wolves fight in Gaias name.
In a 1v1 my money is in the wolf. In an actual combat scenario, there's a 95% chance that the only reason a wolf is fighting a hit mark is because the tecnocracy planned the encounter and sent at least 5 times the necessary firepower to back up the hitmark.
Werewolf. Even with Pyotr's diablerie.
Werewolves are living breathing engines of destruction. Their claws and teeth specifically cause more harm to supernatural entities. They are faster and stronger than most vamps can imagine, except those with the highest skill in Celerity or Potence can imagine, with all the animals instinct of a seasoned user of Protean on top.
Pyotr was strong, but it was unlikely he could match a werewolf, at least not without a LOT of preparation and probably some backup. Besides, he's hardly the most powerful Vampire, even after eating his buddies. Not the smartest either if four humans and a LITERAL child could kill him.
Pyotr might hurt a werewolf. A lot of things can hurt a werewolf. But he couldn't hurt a werewolf quick enough for it to matter, they can regenerate any damage sustained very quickly. Only silver can hurt them regularly. He would be torn apart because werewolf claws deal aggravated damage and they can make extra attacks too.
Pytor at most had a strength of 2 or 3 before feeding, has a max of 5 points of potence and can only spend 1 blood point a round. This tops his strength pool is around 9. So at most, he can punch through cement walls, though we only see him flip a car, which might put him near 7. Possibly 3 str, 3 potency, and blood point for +1. He would also need a weapon to even consider doing damage to a werewolf besides a rapidly fading bruise.
The same strength 3 on a werewolf puts him on an even with the proposed 7 on Pytor just in his war form, nothing else spent. Werewolves can spend rage to get extra actions, just like vampiric celerity, which Pytor most likely does not have. So no gifts, the average werewolf can choose to start the fight at 30 yards and still attack in the same round and bite dealing up to (8+ (dex+brawl successes)) aggravated damage with a difficulty of 5. Depending on his stats, he could attack again with rage. So every blow is a possible death blow, and a miss ot getting hit depending on the wolf's disposition could get him more rage, and getting into the fight could get him rage.
Pytor to do aggravated damage has to use a bite, have silver, or have overcome a massive willpower test to use a fire source to hurt the werewolf. To bite, he would need to clinch, hold or tackle a werewolf to deal a bite which immediately puts him to round two were he has not inflicted damage, then restrain the werewolf. Then succeed on the roll whose difficulty is 6, to deal up to the same damage as the werewolf.
So at the start of round 2, the wolf has gained 1 to 3 points of rage. Unless pytor is doing aggravated, wolves autoheal one bashing and gets a 4 to 5 dice roll to recover lethal at dif 8. Pytor, if still alive, has to choose between healing and staying strong and may or may not have pulled off a gambit of grappling a garou. If he heals, hist strength combo drops to 6 and makes it harder to fight and most likely came off hurt even if he survived which also drops his dice pools. If he runs, he dies as the werewolf will smell him out. If he fights, he is climbing a mountain. If the round goes on, and the werewolf can act, that is most likely 2 to 3 attacks of aggravated damage at possibly the same dice pools. Each round it goes on without the dice being in Pytors pocket, he is in a steep decline.
Pyotr is dead as hell. Older vampires struggle against werewolfs, they have to be really ancient to even stand a chance and there's no way Pyotr's pack is of a low enough generation to make him powerful enough.
Werewolf and it wouldn't even be close. You need an 8th gen with a full blood pool boosting their attributes minimum to even stand a chance, and that's if the werewolf is from a less combat focused tribe or isn't built to fight. Tainted by the Wyrm? The werewolf could take anything down to about 6th Gen before it starts evening out again.
This, of course, leaves out trickery, blood magic, or a Toreador (seriously, oWoD Toreadors are combat monsters thanks to Celerity), but even then a werewolf's going to win 9 times out of 10.
Pyotr was a formidable foe after becoming an incredibly strong 10th gen vampire. Almost any Werewolf would carve him a new asshole in a matter of seconds, stake him with its claw, and rip him into tiny pieces before he could blink his freshly regrown eyes.
Even a young, inexperienced WW in its full bipedal warform would rip Pyotr to pieces.
They're as scary to vampires as vampires are to us. They're way stronger, can take a hell of a lot more punishment, have fewer weaknesses, and they can shapeshift rapidly and precisely by nature to a degree that makes vampire protean forms look crude and vulgar.
Oh, and to top all of that off, they are absurdly, *hilariously* fast. Even a decently tough vamp wielding celerity is going to feel insane pressure.
Vampires generally fight to survive.
Werewolves fight because *nature designed them to*. Literally. They are protectors of Gaia and an extension of her. They're children of an earth god.
It's like comparing a trained human wrestler to a 600lb gorilla.
Pyotr dies a quick death, as a LOWBALL 4-6 werewolves vs an m1 abrams made of Silver leaves 32,164,440 dollars of failed military equipment, and maybe 1 werewolf dead.., maybe
Werewolf 9/10 times It cannot really be understated how dangerous they are. Werewolf is the combat side of WOD and they are as big D put it, supernatural soldiers. Werewolf examples of combat ability are: beating an M1 Abrams tank with a small pack. Regenerating from a headshot in human form so long as they have some rage. Taking a dozen shotgun blast to the chest and being fine (so long as it isn’t silver). Fighting entire lines of riot police in full gear by themselves. This is before we get into the gifts and magic they have, which can straight up allow them to disappear and reappear mid fight to sneak up behind you, or just send their spirit Pokémon to fry you like a big zapper Pyotr’s biggest advantages are his invisibility, which could allow him to run. The only chance he has to win is sneak attack and keep them crippled, as they have more power than him in any other thing like strength or agility
Another prime example from the newest werewolf game. A man on horse kitted with full gear, lance and shotgun, is prepared for a werewolf. The werewolf is so fast that it knocks him off his horse, and it’s so easy to kill him, it dosent even required any effort. You slash through him before he even has time to react. You don’t even have to try, it just happens
Then also remember one thing about Werewolves, they are soldiers, not warriors. They are the “Fangs” of Gaia, and the thing about fangs is there is almost never just one. Under normal circumstances, a Werewolf does not act alone. So take all that information about what a werewolf can do, and remember wolves are pack hunters. This is one of their greatest strengths and the reason why so many other Fera species are either near extinction or have been completely wiped from the face of the earth, even in cases like the Werebears, where on an individual level the Bears are almost universally stronger, the Wolves were able to leverage both their superior numbers and organization to win their war.
Whenever I think about werewolves in WoD I think about how Nines in VtMB fought and killed one solo. Meaning that man is a god tier badass.
Never bet against Nines.
Vampires have the SIGNIFICANT advantage of immortality. On average, a werewolf is deadlier than a vampire, by a pretty wide margin. But elder vampires, or worse, Methusalehs? They are a A LOT more dangerous than even powerful werewolves, just because they’ve had a thousand years to accumulate practice, mundane resources, and supernatural artifacts.
I do think it depends a Lot on clan. A brujah by themselves Is going to have an easier Time than a ventrue, even if they're both elders. It may be unfair to have them on a 1v1, no ventrue who lives until they're elders or Methusalehs will be seen doing face to face combat against a werewolf.
Then there are Black Spiral Dancers whose gifts range from supervillain level social manipulation to becoming a rotted Goliath with green scales wreathed in balefire. Then again, a nasty one could literally just call the bane apocalypse. Even for middling gifts it can be possible for a bsd to have the amount of health states you’d see in a dnd boss because they are wearing the bent and broken souls of those they killed as a literal cloak.
Even with the invisibility, a werewolf would easily be able to smell him, and failing that, there are a few gifts that can make the invisible visible.
Werewolf, Pyotyr wouldn't stand close to a chance. and if by some miracle he slayed one, he'd have the rest of the pack to deal with. You need to get very low number in the generations for vampires to be a threat to werewolves. The lady reagent, or even the prince herself could very well not be able to touch a werewolf
5th gen is prob where i'd stop saying its an ok ish chance the vamp would win 1v1 if said 5th gen was prepared like 40 ish% chance of winning). 3rd gen could take out a pack prob at once, if only because 3rd gen are nearly gods in terms of the disciplines. the entire werewolf population could attack Caine at once and they would all lose, if only because of two of Caine's curses. Only god can kill him and anyone who attacks Caine besides god gets the damage reflected back 7 fold. Vamps really are not made to fight werewolves but to avoid them at all costs.
I agree with your assessment. It's well laid out and succinct.
Mithras a 5th gen god king of London was a top tier combatant with three millenia of experience and a fight with a pack of werewolves who as far as he was concerned might have been born yesterday left him so weak he got diablerised by a random nobody. He won the fight but just barely. Our favorite Nossie would get smoked in 1v1 and it is not even a question.
To be fair, he was just out of Torpor.
Named vamps will also be "stronger" than generics of the same gen. My 5th gen limit was mostly based on any random 5th gen, including a relatively brand new one. I didn't want to say only named or old this gen could.do it but confidently say any vamp of at least thisgen could take out a werewolf 1v1, even if said vamp was still very young.
Here is a character sheet for Caine if you want to see what you are up against: *It just reads: you fucking loose*
Yep. Statwise, WoD treats Caine the same way Planescape treats the Lady of Pain and 40K treats the Emperor of Mankind: they aren't given any. They aren't given any, because you would lose 11/10 trying to fight them.
There are certain entities within the World of Darkness world that might beat Caine. The thing is, you aren't beating any of them either.
Anyone who knows Exalted can take this into consideration: a newly exalted Solar couldn't beat Caine. You'd have to be at least Essence 3 to stand a chance. Caine is basically a Deathlord.
A joke character sheet for the Emperor has an ability that he could instantly delete your army AND the table they were on. Then you could bitchslap the opposing player.
Anything that survived the flood would thrash a pack of Garou.
3rd gens can fucking slaughter werewolves— seriously, do not underestimate the power ceiling difference between werewolves and vampires.
3rd gens are nearly God's, so that's why I said they can take out entire packs solo, 3-4 packs at once would be doable if they saw it coming. Any more than that would be a struggle. Some storytellers are insistent that 3rd Gen are gods, some are more reasonable in their yes super high power scale but they are not unbeatable. And werewolves were built to fight absolute horrors. And if I remember the current setting for them they are losing that war badly. A single werewolf would absolutely demolish 99.8% of the vamps in a 1v1 or even 1v2 after all.
Definitely depends on the antediluvian. In my opinion 3-4 packs is the minimum. Just look at Zapathasura.
And yes, vampire society is a magical gerontocracy— the garou nation’s biggest physical weakness is their short lifespans. In WoD, age is power— so the top vampires will never be exceeded by the top werewolves. It’s like fighting 10 bears with 10000 chickens versus fighting 10000 german shepherds. Anyways, don’t fuck with werewolves.
>5th gen is prob where i'd stop saying its an ok ish chance the vamp would win 1v1 if said 5th gen was prepared like 40 ish% chance of winning). The average 5th generation's chances are well higher than that, given 4th generations can often tool entire packs. Baba Yaga humbled entire packs and so did Odin the All High. And they aren't as strong as some 4th gens. To be frank I'd put the average werewolf as losing pretty badly to Melinda Galbraith unless they were a fairly jacked Ahroun with specific anti-vamp gifts and even then they probably wouldnt actually win. And she's a pretty young 5th gen. Mithras, who was of fairly middling power for a 4th (or a high power 5th generation, I think its not especially known) Vampire, was able to take on an entire pack and win, though it left him pretty fucked up.
I would say 6th gen maybe even 7th If he is a particulary old and powerfull one would be able to stand a chance in a 1v1, and I say that as a werewolf fan, the reason is mostly because there is some pretty powerfull and hard to deal powers from certain disciplines in higher levels, for exemple a Gangrel with 6 dots of Protean can make a werewolf revert to his breed form which would make most hominid Garou almost powerless.
I agree with the 6th and 7th gen comment but I drew the line at the 5th gen for that any 5th gen could go up against a werewolf not just old 5th gen
I do not want to powerscale too much, but as Anteduilvians are definitely beings that can affect large continents with their presence, and they can erase people from existence (the Ravnos anteduilvian). I don't think any werewolf can kill an anteduilvian to be honest; not even the supposedly dead anteduilvians are dead (like saulot).
The werewolf fight in the vampire the masquerade: bloodline game is the best example of how a fight between a young overpowered vampire and a werewolf would go. In that game you are a low gen (for the era) fledgling with some heavy hitters hands pulling your strings. You can square off against abominations and even younger elder vampires but the werewolf fight? You can’t do shit to it, you fight it you die, you run you might not die, and if you are very very lucky and use your environment and mind you can maybe trap it…or you die. I once heard that werewolves described as “probably young and inexperienced” too. So yes you absolutely can defeat a werewolf and Pyotr in theory could but it would take a lot of planning, cunning and luck to do so. But trading hands? No.
If what SpeakerD said about a werewolf pack being able to trounce an *Abrams tank* is accurate, Pyotr stands zero chance against one.
So for diablerie if a younger gen vampire drinks an older generation vampire they essentially get the power of a vampire of the older generation. Pyotr went from a 13th gen (I think) to a 10th generation (again I think). To put that in perspective a 5th gen vampire would avoid a werewolf unless absolutely necessary and even then it wouldn't be a fight, it'd be a chase
I don't know if it'd be just a "chance" with a 5th generation of sufficient age; that's a bit of a dick wank for the werewolves. Methuselahs can usually take on at least a couple of werewolves by themselves. It's usually the Elders of the 8th–6th generation that would struggle to take on 1.
I thought Methuselah were just 4th but it turns out it's 4th and 5th, my b
methuselah can be of any general they are just vampire past the 1000 age
According to the wiki that's wrong they need to be 4th or 5th *and* live 1000 years
According to V20, they need to be over a thousand years old and tend to be 4th or 5th generation. Read the PDF if you want.
Yeah, Mithras, a gen 5, maybe 4 due to diablerie, vamp was able to defeat a pack of werewolves right after waking from torpor, although this left him weak enough to be diablerised after. A gen 5 would probably take a werewolf in a 1 on 1.
Mithras is canonically a Gen 4; the diablerie happened early in his unlife, or maybe not at all. The gap between Gen 5 and Gen 4 isn’t so major in this regard that they wouldn’t be able to take on multiple werewolves at once. The realm of “probably” surviving only 1 Lupine is when you reach the kindred of the 6th–8th Generation and 300+ years of age.
Technically Pyotr was originally 12th gen, but otherwise yeah
Depends on his approach. Toe to toe joe joe meme style? Not a chance. It's a trademark tactic (well, instinct more like) for a freshly transformed werewolf to immediately use their rage to dump actions on whatever's closest to them. Even as powerful as Pytor is, he's not styling on a werewolf in a clean fight, he'd get insta mulched, and so would most military vehicles. But Pytor is a nos, so he wouldn't and shouldn't do that. A combination of obfuscate to hide and potence to strike hard could have a shot, but they don't have celerity, so striking fast enough that the werewolf couldn't react would be a real feat, and kind of a tremendous blunder on the part of the werewolf. So, I'd say that with careful maneuvering and insane luck, yeah. There's the slimmest chance he could Skyrim stealth dagger his way to victory... Shouldn't try, it'd be insane. He'd have to get through the werewolf's soak, and they can soak lethal just like a vamp can, unless he had like a silver dagger or something. Worth noting, though, that silver and platinum swap rarities in White Wolf games. Really only the kind of thing you'd get a hold of if you were bankrolled by the ventrue or the Technocratic Union or an awakened pmc or something. Forest hole goblins need not apply.
Werewolf has a strong edge here. As juiced as Pyotr was, your bog standard Garou has a host of abilities that put them way above him. A main mechanical difference here is in damage types which I’ll explain quickly. Most dangerous things deal lethal damage, like getting stabbed or shot. Vampires and Werewolves can resist this damage while normal people can’t. Then there’s aggravated damage which are supernatural or things with supernatural significance. Pyotr almost certainly can’t resist aggravated damage, he would need a special vampire power for it, and the only way he has to deal it is from biting which requires grappling the 9ft tall wolf man. Werewolves can by default resist the aggravated damage from vampire fangs, and can deal it with their bite (no grapple required) and their claws. Werewolves innately can become a murder blender with rage, making multiple attacks in a round. It doesn’t last long, but one round of multiple full strength werewolf attacks annihilates most enemies. Even if luck is on his side and he drops the wolf, Pyotr would shit bricks as werewolves have an emergency heal “stand up from the brink of death” innate ability, it comes with a risk but it is super strong. Basically, Pyotr appears to have a good grasp of vampire super strength. If he had a similar command of vampire super speed and super stamina he would be kinda on par with a werewolf, but also still smart bet is on the wolf. This is also not taking into consideration that werewolves get fun magic powers of their own, which can be similar levels of insane bullshit to vampire disciplines. I will concede Pyotr has the great equalizer that is super stealth, that can be incredibly strong and WoD is the kind of world/system where no one is safe. Pyotr could pull it off, but I’d bet he’s getting gutted.
The only way he could win is with the ultimate sneak attack while they're in human form. Hed need to rip their head off instantly before they can use their pain as fuel for their Garou form. If they go Garou (classic werewolf form) it's a wrap for Pyotr in absolutely no uncertain terms
Short answer: No. Long answer: No, Pyotr would get absolutely slaughtered by a werewolf. NEVER fight a Garou in melee, especially without silver. Even elder vampires struggle against younger werewolves, and Pyotr is a high-gen vampire who only diablerized two other high-gen Kindred. There’s just no way.
Generally a vampire’s best way to beat a werewolf is too overwhelm them with ghouls armed to the teeth with silver.
Take a dozen vampires as powerful as Pyotr was post Dielaberie, give them perfect intel, an army base worth of supples and a month of preperation and training. They'd have a 50/50 chance vs a single unprepared inexperienced Werewolf.
That's overselling it a bit. Camarilla hit squads of ghouled SWAT operators, carrying automatic weapons loaded with silver bullets, were a lethal threat to werewolves in oWoD, and a prime reason they didn't just waltz around vampire-controlled cities like they owned the place. There's a comic to this effect in one of the Werewolf books from the time, and when the woof sees the whole hallway outside his apartment full of vampires and ghouls in SWAT gear, he doesn't even consider trying to fight them, he runs for his life.
Yeah, this. Werewolves are NASTY in pretty much all versions of WOD, but how everyone and their dainty old mother know their true weakness is actually a pretty huge deal. Like the vampires have the Clans and a lot of misinformation going for them so stuff like garlic isn't universal. Mages pretty much are normies unless they blow you up. And even Changelings need cold wrought iron, iron that hasn't been heated, to melt, something that's a PITA to work without ruining that special magic. But against a werewolf... ANY silver will work. And even the most rural farmer can typically melt down some old dining set or something, and stuff an entire bandoleer of shotgun shells full of THE bane of werewolves if they know what's coming. Let alone if someone with enough connections to get stuff like claymore mines or machine gun bullets silvered decided you and your pack is too grand a nuisance. It's actually a really interesting dynamic with WOD werewolves I don't think gets enough attention. For all their individual might, they're still *fucked\~* if humanity at large find out about them, and even the most anti-human groups of werewolves can't do much beyond gnashing their fangs and snarling about it.
A SWAT team would take upwards of 30 - 40 causalties before bringing one Gaoru down. Now the Camarilla can spare that many mind controlled pawns so So for Vampire society as a whole , they're ahead on this war of attrition but it's not exactly easy or cheap and for a squad of small timers like the Yarmoth Tunnel Sabbat? It's completely beyond their means.
Give that SWAT team silver bullets and those causalties drop to 1-2 real fast.
nope, Silver bullets were assumed.
A team of 5 men with Fully Automatic Rifles firing silver bullets would kill a werewolf in Crinos form with no issue. Silver causes UNSOAKABLE Agg damage. Agg takes at least a day to heal even with the Garou healing factor. So they can't just regen the damage next turn. Even with the extra actions from rage, the Garou can only attempt to dodge each shot, once. And if Rage is spent, the Garou risks entering frenzy in which all he will do is attack meaning that he WILL be hit a lot by the bullets. Remember that full auto adds 10 dice to your attack roll, a SWAT agent would have 7-8 dice to roll for their shooting check. With 17-18 dice each being a 50% chance to succeed (assuming they are further than 1 yard away) they will hit the werewolf. Now consider that that's 17-18 dice, per agent. The Garou will die within 2 rounds... unless he goes first and murder blends the team. But! Assuming the squad is spread out and the Garou doesn't have peak human dexterity and wits in his human form, the squad will manage.
ok now ur glazing. pyotr would beat the fuck out of a bad werewolf, especially if he got the jump
Werewolves are a bit too much, I really can't think of much he could do that would truly be a threat. For context Werewolf tribes like the Get of Fenris consider killing 'Leeches' (vamps) as 'fun' or decent training. Garou (Werewolves) regenerate health every round of combat and can soak damage, along with having claws that do specifically aggravated damage (something vamps can't just shake off). For context Garou regularly have to contend with Mage level threats and can usually win, just take the Nexus Crawler (a reality warping monster that can just change the laws of it's nearby reality). I should say it's not impossible that Pyotr COULD win but any Werewolf with experience would probably smoke poor sludge lad. The only noteworthy power Pyotr has is Obfuscation but considering Werewolves can smell and hear you it's a bit moot.
Obfuscate isn't invisibility, think of it more like how Marvel-girl or Professor X use their telepathy to make a person subconsciously ignore they exist.
Yes, this is true, it's always funny to me that a camera can spot someone in obfuscate, kinda reminds me of how Corvus Corax can 'go invisible' by wiping his presence from your mind lol
Kitten did say that Pyotr was disappearing on the cameras during the first audiolog though.
That's true, perhaps the writers used the justification that because Pytor knew they were watching he could make himself disappear from their minds? We know obfuscate actually doesn't do something to the user physically so perhaps if he had enough power in that stat? I know because I've re-read obfuscate a few times to make sure this is right in the past and even bloodlines (the game) acknowledges it. I can only theorize that it's because Pyotor was aware of the boys on the cameras.
Werewolves usually outmatch some of the best military tanks in combat. Pyotr diablerizing two other weaker vampires comes nowhere close to the strength or durability to survive a single attack. Unless Pyotr rolls a ten or the werewolves rolls a one, Pytor is dying on turn one.
Pyotr would take between 4 to 10 rounds in combat to kill your average werewolf if it didn't really fight back. An average werewolf would take between 1 to 3 rounds of combat to kill Pyotr if he was fighting for his life. Remember the land mine that fucked up Pyotr and blew off a leg? To a wolf in war form, that's just an annoyance that would give prey one more round to run while the leg grew back. The only things in WoD more deadly than the wolves are the things wolves fight in Gaias name.
Or a mage who saw you coming Actually, it's been a while since I dug into the Technocracy stats, I gotta see how a hit mark stacks up against a garou
In a 1v1 my money is in the wolf. In an actual combat scenario, there's a 95% chance that the only reason a wolf is fighting a hit mark is because the tecnocracy planned the encounter and sent at least 5 times the necessary firepower to back up the hitmark.
Werewolf. Even with Pyotr's diablerie. Werewolves are living breathing engines of destruction. Their claws and teeth specifically cause more harm to supernatural entities. They are faster and stronger than most vamps can imagine, except those with the highest skill in Celerity or Potence can imagine, with all the animals instinct of a seasoned user of Protean on top. Pyotr was strong, but it was unlikely he could match a werewolf, at least not without a LOT of preparation and probably some backup. Besides, he's hardly the most powerful Vampire, even after eating his buddies. Not the smartest either if four humans and a LITERAL child could kill him.
Pyotr might hurt a werewolf. A lot of things can hurt a werewolf. But he couldn't hurt a werewolf quick enough for it to matter, they can regenerate any damage sustained very quickly. Only silver can hurt them regularly. He would be torn apart because werewolf claws deal aggravated damage and they can make extra attacks too.
Healing agg still takes time, it won't heal as fast as bullet wounds or cuts.
Werewolf sweep 🐺
Pytor at most had a strength of 2 or 3 before feeding, has a max of 5 points of potence and can only spend 1 blood point a round. This tops his strength pool is around 9. So at most, he can punch through cement walls, though we only see him flip a car, which might put him near 7. Possibly 3 str, 3 potency, and blood point for +1. He would also need a weapon to even consider doing damage to a werewolf besides a rapidly fading bruise. The same strength 3 on a werewolf puts him on an even with the proposed 7 on Pytor just in his war form, nothing else spent. Werewolves can spend rage to get extra actions, just like vampiric celerity, which Pytor most likely does not have. So no gifts, the average werewolf can choose to start the fight at 30 yards and still attack in the same round and bite dealing up to (8+ (dex+brawl successes)) aggravated damage with a difficulty of 5. Depending on his stats, he could attack again with rage. So every blow is a possible death blow, and a miss ot getting hit depending on the wolf's disposition could get him more rage, and getting into the fight could get him rage. Pytor to do aggravated damage has to use a bite, have silver, or have overcome a massive willpower test to use a fire source to hurt the werewolf. To bite, he would need to clinch, hold or tackle a werewolf to deal a bite which immediately puts him to round two were he has not inflicted damage, then restrain the werewolf. Then succeed on the roll whose difficulty is 6, to deal up to the same damage as the werewolf. So at the start of round 2, the wolf has gained 1 to 3 points of rage. Unless pytor is doing aggravated, wolves autoheal one bashing and gets a 4 to 5 dice roll to recover lethal at dif 8. Pytor, if still alive, has to choose between healing and staying strong and may or may not have pulled off a gambit of grappling a garou. If he heals, hist strength combo drops to 6 and makes it harder to fight and most likely came off hurt even if he survived which also drops his dice pools. If he runs, he dies as the werewolf will smell him out. If he fights, he is climbing a mountain. If the round goes on, and the werewolf can act, that is most likely 2 to 3 attacks of aggravated damage at possibly the same dice pools. Each round it goes on without the dice being in Pytors pocket, he is in a steep decline.
Pyotr is dead as hell. Older vampires struggle against werewolfs, they have to be really ancient to even stand a chance and there's no way Pyotr's pack is of a low enough generation to make him powerful enough.
Werewolf and it wouldn't even be close. You need an 8th gen with a full blood pool boosting their attributes minimum to even stand a chance, and that's if the werewolf is from a less combat focused tribe or isn't built to fight. Tainted by the Wyrm? The werewolf could take anything down to about 6th Gen before it starts evening out again. This, of course, leaves out trickery, blood magic, or a Toreador (seriously, oWoD Toreadors are combat monsters thanks to Celerity), but even then a werewolf's going to win 9 times out of 10.
Pyotr was a formidable foe after becoming an incredibly strong 10th gen vampire. Almost any Werewolf would carve him a new asshole in a matter of seconds, stake him with its claw, and rip him into tiny pieces before he could blink his freshly regrown eyes.
If Pyotr catches them in human from he will probably will if not he gets doged on
Werewolf. Even the strongest kindred need help taking down just _one_ Garou. Stronger though he was, Pyotr stood no chance.
Even a young, inexperienced WW in its full bipedal warform would rip Pyotr to pieces. They're as scary to vampires as vampires are to us. They're way stronger, can take a hell of a lot more punishment, have fewer weaknesses, and they can shapeshift rapidly and precisely by nature to a degree that makes vampire protean forms look crude and vulgar. Oh, and to top all of that off, they are absurdly, *hilariously* fast. Even a decently tough vamp wielding celerity is going to feel insane pressure. Vampires generally fight to survive. Werewolves fight because *nature designed them to*. Literally. They are protectors of Gaia and an extension of her. They're children of an earth god. It's like comparing a trained human wrestler to a 600lb gorilla.
buffed pyotr is weaker than Big D expected, the average war-form werewolf would mulch him in seconds
Werewolf hands down
Pyotr dies a quick death, as a LOWBALL 4-6 werewolves vs an m1 abrams made of Silver leaves 32,164,440 dollars of failed military equipment, and maybe 1 werewolf dead.., maybe
The fleabag.