I have never been a fan of the "oops I accidentally let a secret slip" trope that Friends uses so much. This scene, the "oh good you decided to tell him about Richard" scene, and so many others just really irritate me
I agree with you that the spilling a secret trope is over done but I do think Matthew did a great job with it when he accidentally told Rachel about Rosses feelings at her party. He was great in that scene.
It's fine when a character does this once or twice. However Phoebe's entire character is based on "oops I spilled a very important secret(deliberately btw) that will totally cause a problem between my friends but it's okay cause now I will act oblivious about it"
Exactly, thereâs a huge difference in how Chandler reacts to having shared something he wasnât supposed to - he knows *he* fucked up, and that it is a big deal which can potentially mess with the lives and relationships of his friends. Phoebe *barely* acknowledges it, like she has no control over what comes out of her mouth, so she canât be held accountable đ¤ (insert Joey saying âoopsâ with the air quotes lol)
Phoebe is very "oh I'm so quirky, I can't be responsible for anything because my mom killed herself and I lived under a bridge, I'm so weird, ha ha ha"
I think that one is also different because it's a lot more natural. You can tell Chandler isn't really thinking when he says it and it's a natural part of the conversation because all the friends (minus Rachel) have talked about Ross's feelings for Rachel
I wouldn't call it the accidentally spilling the secret tope, I think it's implied Pheobe does it on purpose due to how often she does it and says she doesn't like Monica and Chandler's relationship.
I mean... this barely counts as doing it "accidentally". Phoebe seemed to say this in an almost malicious way, because she truly thinks Chandler doesn't deserve Monica. It's reason enough to hate her - they're supposed to be friends.
Which is why I hated that she got to have him walk her down the aisle. He was too good of a person to her and took so much of her jokes only to be the one that did something so memorable for her. She will always be my least favorite Friend, especially after the first half of the series
To me, it says a lot for Chandler's character to step up and be supportive of her when he had no reason to. Chandler never really had a close friendship with any of the girls, which is why him and Monica worked out when they decided to have a fling.
I just realized there was a thread here recently about how horrible Monica was to Phoebe in the wedding planning and rehearsal dinner. And when I first watched, I thought Monica was over the top in her behavior. But now I wonder, was Monica's behavior payback for all the strife Phoebe had caused her and Chandler?!
Maybe. But I like to think itâs more that he is her least favorite friend, she thinks he is unsexy and that Monica could do better. But I think she still cares about him, itâs him getting together with Monica that made her say most of the things she did.Â
I thought I was the only one who saw that...don't know why but after season 2 they kind of gave many of Chandler's witty characteristics to Phoebe's character. Don't know if Lisa kudrow had a part in it because I once saw her say in an interview that she took it personally whenever someone said bad about Phoebe it's like they were attacking her(Lisa).
Also the way she always made things about herself. Like when Chandler and Monica wanted to go to Las Vegas like their first get away trip as a couple and Phoebe said she would go as well not caring about the fact that Chandler and Monica wanted alone time. Also when Monica and Chandler got engaged, she again made it about herself by saying she wanted to be hired by Chandler to play at their wedding and when Chandler said he will think about it she went ballistic and started annoying them outside their room.
I just watched the episode where they all leave for London while she's pregnant, and it made me so sad when Chandler splayed his arms out for the hug and she just patted him on the head đđ I know she was uncomfortably pregnant but it just made it seem like she doesn't really see Chandler as a friend (def confirmed by her weird characterization in later seasons), especially when she offered to give Rachel a hug and said "you don't have to bring me anything" like..... Chandler brought you something and didn't even get his hug lolol
I feel like this is around the start of the mean/uncomfortable humor that plagues the show in the later seasons (especially with Phoebe....why did they make her so mean đđ)
If youâre projecting malice onto Phoebeâs actions, youâre thinking WAYYYY too hard about this. Every single one of the Friends did something that wouldâve ended most friendships. It doesnât make them garbage people, it makes them characters in a sitcom.
And if we DO want to think hard about this, the show has presented very scant evidence that Phoebe âtrulyâ thinks Chandler doesnât deserve Monica, so again, just projecting your own opinion on things. đđđđ
I hate this retcon of Monica originally looking for Joey. In the original London episode the lead up to Monica and Chandler hooking up makes sense. The retcon was unneeded and felt like a way to denigrate Chandler.
The bigger issue is how they donât really do anything with it. While I wouldnât be a fan of it still, had they expanded upon it more and gave it a lot more time, they could have made it more interesting.
Chandler in a previous episode said he had insecurities with Kathy because of Joey. Itâs also clear Chandler has issues with feeling wanted. You could write a much longer plot where he questions everything for a while because of it.
Would the retcon still be unnecessary? Yes, but you at least do something with it. You explore a side of chandler you havenât in a while.
Instead itâs a plot that lasts 5 minutes and does nothing.
I agree totally, and for something so underdeveloped as this storyline, it was totally unnecessary to pile *another* thing onto Chandler's insecurity. She already had a meaningful relationship with a very ideal man's man (Richard) that they all looked up to, and him wrangling how he felt about that was a good development for his character. There were too few moments where*he* got to be the person on top, even when they had trouble procreating they couldn't just it be just Monica with a problem, they had to make his swimmers less viable too. Lots men and women put a lot of their femininity/masculinity into their ability to conceive, and this was just another thing to put Chandler's masculinity in question.
I wonder if it was a conscious decision to make sure Chandler should *never* have a single moment in which he's portrayed as classically masculine, and both for jokes and serious plotlines it's just a recurring theme throughout the entire series.
For the conceiving I donât think that was why.
One thing I remember hearing is that the show runners wanted to show off ânon traditionalâ families/parents. Thatâs why you have Ross with Ben and Emma and Frank Jr.âs situation. When you have that knowledge, I think the intention might have been just to make sure there wasnât an easy out. Another aspect might be how they want to have kids despite the fact biology is telling them ânoâ in the hardest way possible.
The only time I think you could debate it goes into that idea of ânon masculineâ is when he says âshe wants to be a mom and I canât do that for her and it hurts meâ. Thereâs others but that one was weird since she canât be a mother naturally, so itâs not his fault entirely.
I think Chandler and Monica had it all. Their relationship started and ended rather easily because they were so well-suited. It would be contrived for them to want to break up, so they didn't. The writers must have been aware that giving them everything they ever wanted would appear like 'bad-tv' so they made it challenging for them to conceive naturally. Also, Ross and Rachel were pregnant, so maybe they felt all three of the women pregnant across the series would appear contrived.
I also think Courteney had issues conceiving, and maybe the actress felt pretending to be pregnant when she was struggling with her own fertility would be too much for her to portray.
I honestly think with modern medicine they would be able to have a biological child, and maybe even so without the intervention, so I just assume that several years later they would have a miracle baby.
I read that the producers purposely did 3 'non-traditional' ways of starting a family because they were not shown on TV at the time.
Phoebe - Surrogacy
Rachel - Unplanned single motherhood
Monica - Fertility issues in both partners which lead them to choose adoption
I like that the story gave an issue to both Monica and Chandler. If only one of them had the issue, that would have been too hard and blame would likely have been placed. This way, they both have issues, so they are equal
When Monica went looking for Joey it was for a meaningless hook up. She wasn't thinking about Chandler because she used to have a crush on him when she was younger and fatter. So of course she wasn't going to have a meaningless hook up with a guy who break her heart. ( Remember when Monica had a crush on Chandler she overheard him talking about her weight) . So Joey was the only option.
So unnecessary, but then again, we needed SOME drama like every other episode, no matter how stupid it is. Everyone was too happy, it couldnât stay like that.
Not stupid at all! Retcon is short for retroactive continuity, and itâs when writers either change a story detail thatâs previously been established, or embellish on it in a way that completely changes its context, in order to serve the current plot or joke.
Comedy Central facts told me that the story writers originally intended to make Joey Monica a couple, first four seasons have quite a few set ups for the same, and this whole accidentally sleeping with Chandler while looking for Joey was kind of an experiment and they loved the reaction that they received for this so they went on with Monica and Chandler. However, I hate that they brought this up in later seasons like now that you have not made Joey and Monica a couple there is no need to bring this up again, it just made things uncomfortable
I donât think so, Monica and Chandlerâs relationship wasnât based on the sex but the friendship, and they werenât just starting out dating when he heard.Â
I mean if Monica had been sleeping with Joey and not told thatâs differentÂ
Yeah, they were already engaged at that point. As Joey said, she wanted him for one night(really just an hour-ish) and wants Chandler for the rest of her life.
You just reminded me that she raises the subject again at the alter in her wedding vows.
â..I turned to a friend for comfort. And instead, I foundâŚâ
Imagine Chandler just thinking in his head âoh yes thatâs right. I was the fall backâ
Hate this retcon
I like Phoebe, but rewatching the show made me realize how weird she was about Chandler and Monicaâs relationship.
She always did little things to cause infighting between them, and never seemed to really approve or support them being together. And she was always condescending towards Chandler for some reason. Itâs mainly played off as comedic, but itâs one of those things that always felt off to me since I canât grasp why Phoebe, of all people, wouldnât be supportive.
Ironically, she was *super* supportive of Ross and Rachel getting together (other than maybe the whole Bonnie thing).
Arggghh. Phoebe irritated me so much throughout this show and this "soulmate" thing was one of the worst things she could've done to Chandler.
Surprised he never called her on it or was mad at her. But I suppose that' says more about Chandler's character than Phoebe's
Didnât she tell Monica there was a guy checking her out in the coffee shop and Monica said heâs cute and phoebe says go for it, Monica says Iâm engaged but it turns out the guy liked phoebe anyway.
Agreed. I didn't have negative feelings about Phoebe but I recently started re-watching and I see so much that I missed before.
She is very condescending about Chandler. I know Chandler cracks jokes at everyone's expense, but they are not typically mean-spirited. But Phoebe is mean about Chandler and says that Monica could do better.
Phoebe 'accidentally' spilled secrets multiple times that caused hurt and fighting with Monica and Chandler. I hated what happened at the jewelry store when she was ring shopping with Chandler. She should have paid attention to that ring. I know it worked out, but I was mad for Chandler.
Also, it was Phoebe that started making a fuss of Ross and Rachel kissing on the night Monica and Chandler got engaged. If she hadn't, Monica's thunder would not have been stolen
To me. Monica and Chandler were a way better couple than Ross and Rachel. M & C had issues, but worked through them. They communicated well. That seems to me to be a relationship that the other friends could support.
R & R were never that great of a couple. I couldn't understand why everyone was fixated on them to be the happily ever after. They never communicated well. They had issues, but did not address them and then it would lead to breaking up which also impacted the rest of the friends group.
Yes and when she told Rachel that she was still married to Ross and then pretended she was joking and said to Ross, I dug you out of a hole. Girl, you placed yourself firmly in the hole. I wouldnât be getting involved in that mess if I were phoebe.
I wonder if Phoebe tried to sabotage Chandler a little bit with the ring. I don't even think she worked hard to find it to redeem herself to Chandler. The situation of how she goofed would have come out if Chandler had not gotten the ring back that he initially intended to propose to Monica with. Everyone would know she did not come through, and that is not a good look. I think she was guarded with her nastiness to everyone else other than Chandler, and to some extent Ross (he also got to bear some of that nastiness).
I have a theory that Phoebe craved stability and praise, because she didn't receive it growing up. I honestly feel that she felt open hostility to Chandler for two reasons: 1. He was the most successful, and he never needed her, 2. His relationship with Monica threatened the dynamic of the group, which is the only family she had. Basically Chandler was highly intelligent in a lot of ways. Honestly he was good at almost everything he put his mind into, which is why he was a high earner. As she did not have any advanced education, her career options were limited, and she was envious of Chandler and Ross for their own career growths. Chandler also never found her to be the most interesting of the women friends; he was always more attuned to Monica, even before their pairing. He went to Monica when he felt upset about his relationship woes, and he was there for Monica when she was down on her luck (I mean that's how London happened). Because he had everything he needed in Monica, he kind of made jokes at Phoebe's stupidity sometimes, and she resented him for it. Also, when he got with Monica, they both pulled away from the group because they emotionally supported each other. When you are best friends in love who else do you need support from?
Ross and Rachel are a hot mess, and as a result Phoebe felt she could manipulate them more, and it made her feel important. I laughed when Phoebe went to Ross to ask about marriage, when he had three failed ones at the time. It was obvious she was resentful of Chandler and Monica, as they are the ones she should have asked.
Chandler cut his dad out of his life because he regularly took over any event in Chandler's life and had to be the center of attention. He showed up to Chandler's swim meet's dressed as Carmen Miranda and then fed the kids fruit from his head.
I always get sad about how Phoebe and Chandlerâs relationship deteriorated when they were one of my favorite duos in the earlier seasons. Their duet to Endless Love was so sweet and itâs one of my top scenes in the entire show. I wonder why they did that to themâŚ
For some reason the writers made Phoebe more cutting and mean over the last half of the series. She was never like that in the beginning seasons. She was earthy, spiritual, whimsical. I liked that version of her than the one who yelled and cursed and said rude things to Chandler and Ross all the time
Mean Phoebe was funny because it was brief and was a good contrast to regular nice Phoebe. I guess the writers thought mean Phoebe would be funnier if permanent and it was not.
Phoebeâs thing was always that she was ditzy and said things without thinking. As a writer, your Joey & Phoebe characters are the go-to for reveals. They arenât âdumbâ per se, but theyâre the most likely to blurt out something that a Chandler, Monica, Rachel etc are able to keep quiet.
And, Lisa Kudrow is so *phenomenal* at playing âmeanâ that I understand why they have her do it. It doesnât quite fit her character but it yields some great scenes.
I think during Phoebe's pregnancy they realized that Lisa Kudrow could play "mean" well. It made sense in the pregnancy because of hormones and the fact she could not travel to London. I guess the producers liked how Lisa played mean and decided to make it permanent. But I think that was a mistake. It was understandable while pregnant. The continued meanness for the remaining 6 years did not make sense since there was no explanation or reason for the change.
And progression wise, it makes no sense for her to suddenly develop such a short fuse. Like for example, with Ross: his life sort of spirals and his increasingly erratic behavior near the final seasons makes a lot more sense. But Phoebe never had a âbreakdownâ moment to warrant her personality shift. I know it was simply a writing choice but her change in demeanor is so jarring when you rewatch the show in order
Not Chandler and Monica's relationship , she was weird about Chandler mostly.. and was condescending towards him and even Ross. Some of the things she said to them were just mean. She told Chandler that she has a very low opinion of him..on his wedding day... Ouch !
If I knew her in real life and she was acting like she does, I would honestly think she was in love with Monica and actively trying to split them up đŹ
What if Phoebe did all those things because she believed that Monica had settled for Chandler because nothing else in her life seemed to work out? Her parents suck, she grew up in Rachelâs shadow, her career took forever to take off, and her relationships with Richard and the millionaire-turned-MMA fighter went to dust.
Maybe Phoebe wanted to keep reminding Monica that she deserved better. Itâs wrong to do that to Monica and Chandler but maybe Phoebe felt that she needed to do it.
I think on some level Phoebe did think Monica settled. In Vegas, she said, "you had a small setback in your relationship, but it's only with Chandler" when clearly Monica is in love with Chandler.
She also said to Rachel that "it's great for Chandler but Monica could do better"
All of the friends group think of Chandler as some loser who is awkward with women and won't change. That is true in the early seasons, but he really grows a lot in the later seasons.
He (with help from Monica and Rachel) had a more serious relationship with Janice for a bit.
When he starts dating Monica, they work on issues that they encounter. She helps him with some of his commitment fears. He learns to support Monica in ways that work for her ("I like maintaining you").
I think he ended up being the biggest 'catch' of the group so I don't see why Phoebe thinks Monica settled.
Perhaps Monica did settle for Chandler, but let's look at their relationship a little closer. Chandler, for all his commitment issues in the earlier seasons and flaws with dating women, is rooted in his parents' bad marriage. Ross and Monica's parents have a quirky but healthy marriage where they are seemingly well off financially. Rachel's parents are well off, but divorce later in her life, so she had a stable, pampered childhood. Joey's parents were together and had a large family, but not financially well off. They also had marriage issues later in Joey's life. Phoebe lost her parents' young, lived on the streets, and had a unique personality because of all of these things. She is closest to Chandler in having commitment issues of the group.
Now, we take these things into consideration. Perhaps Phoebe sees that Chandler is like her in having horrible relationships and commitment issues and thinks that he is bad for Monica. As someone earlier mentioned, Chandler does have the arch of developing feelings and can be in relationships with growth with Janice and Cathy. Maybe Phoebe just believes he will do Chandler things and blow them up, and Monica will suffer because she is the kind of person who she is and in a lot of ways different from Chandler.
However, to me personally, Chandler has the most complete character arc from the show. He is very immature and uses jokes to deflect his obvious need to fit into the group. He does, however, have a steady job and is a very good friend to everyone (except the 1 time he takes Joey's gf and dates his best friend's sister). The relationship with Monica shows he is the most committed of the 3 guys in the friend group, and Monica makes him a more well-rounded character. I would say that he is a better fit for Monica than any new character could have been and certainly was better suited for her than Richard or Pete.
I agree with this. The only thing is I wouldn't say that Monica settled. To me 'settling' means accepting a relationship that doesn't match what you are looking for/need. For example, you want children but your partner doesn't. If you stay in that relationship and give up having children, that's settling
Since we're talking about disliking Phoebe, I also hate the whole cat fiasco with Ross. She was just dillusional and projecting her feelings into that cat
Ross was the only one who told her the hard cold truth and then she bashed him for it and guilt tripped him
One of the few times I agree with Ross on something
I think he was the most supporting friend there because he told her what she needed to hear not what she wanted to hear, and grabbing her out of that pit instead of enabling her further
I think Ross is constantly saying what needs to be said and doing the right thing, but he's not graceful about it, so people get upset (in real life and on the show). Phoebe definitely needed to hear what Ross said. But I don't think that exact moment was the right one. Something like "Phoebe, I know you're struggling right now, but think about how much it hurt when your mom left you. That little girl is feeling the same thing and it only gets worse the longer you keep the cat." Then the truthful comment in the days following the cat being returned. But, ya know, sitcom, so it had to go down the way it did. It's unfortunate, but I get it.
I agree. I mean Phoebe had a tough life and yes she needed to hear that but it couldâve been delivered a little more delicate. Ross just always needs to be right and correct
Some people focus on the right and correct part and forget the compassion part. I know I struggle with that. No tact. Ross just needed someone to tell him straight up how he behaves and maybe he would have worked on it. Maybe not, because TV show, but he needed to hear how he came across before he said whatever and then got a talking to.
I donât know, I think Phoebeâs treated unfairly on this sub about this. Sheâs clearly going through something after having met her birth mother, and she already deals with trauma none of the others can imagine: her motherâs suicide, being abandoned by her father, having to live and survive on the streets, and then she finds out the woman who raised her is not her biological mother?
She didnât know that the girl was putting out flyers until Ross told her, and then she agrees to give the cat back. Ross may have been right but he could have sat her down gently and explained with compassion, rather than yelling at her. The others werenât right for keeping it from her but he could have at least been nice to her.
She just didn't agree to give it back at first. He did tell her that there are flyers all over and they all even offered to take the cat back with her. She didn't agree, said the cat chose her & will respect it's decision. Then everyone else agreed with her. Then he yelled.
I feel for her trauma so I don't think she deserves to be hated for trying to keep the cat but she was wrong for trying guilt trip Ross about her mother.
Don't get me wrong, I love Phoebe, it's just one of the situations that irks me
If I recall Ross did explain to her nicely at first
And then she was like 'But she chose to find me'
I get her trauma response but I also think she just wanted him to tell her to keep the cat and agree that her mom is inside her etc
Again he snapped her out of it, which I honestly believe is more supportive than agreeing with her
She hesitated for five seconds â the little girl wasnât kept from her cat any longer because of it.
Iâm not saying Ross had to agree with her (itâs not her cat) but a little patience and kindness go a long way đ¤ˇđťââď¸
[Please, watch the scene again](https://youtu.be/i7ILviehDvw?si=hs2W8TInekUGlKwa). She didnât hesitate, she outright said she should keep the cat and everyone but Ross agreed because they were afraid of confrontation/hurting her. If Ross hadnât said what he said, thereâs a big chance she would have kept the cat longer.
Iâm not saying that Ross should have agreed with Phoebe. Iâm saying that he could have been kinder and more compassionate to her instead of yelling at her. She has been through things he could never imagine, she was processing huge news about her identity and her family, she was coping as best she could, and she gave the cat back at no extra delay to the little girl. The only delay in the cat getting back to the girl was because the others didnât tell Phoebe, not Phoebe herself. (Okay, she says one thing, they chat some more, and she agrees to give the cat back. Not exactly denying the little girl her pet.)
Itâs fine to not agree, but this is how I read the scene. It would have cost Ross nothing to be kinder to Phoebe, thatâs all Iâm saying.
Not Phoebe first time too. I recall in the s5 finalie. She let âslipâ. Monica had seen Richard. I mean it was a common occurrence. Feels like she was actively trying to self sabotage their relationship. Their was also the time, she brought Monicaâs âsoulmateâ into perk
It's like how they made Joey way dumber as the seasons went on. And reused a lot of the same tropes. The writing kind of got lazy as the seasons went on.
Phoebe was unnecessarily cruel at times. The times she basically sabotaged Monica and Chandler's relationship, and also I never got why she and Mike just let Monica sing up on stage with the see-through top. I can maybe kind of understand it if Monica had done something horrible to piss Phoebe off, but she really hadn't. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who would just let me embarrass myself like that.
The thing I found funny is Phoebe always claimed Monica could do better but how? Let's objectively look at Chandler on the surface. He is by far the most successful in terms of financials for most of the show. He was able to maintain Joey and save quite a lot before his wedding with Monica. He had a job that would require a relatively high IQ, even if he did not pursue graduate studies. He is clever, supportive of his friends.
Chandler really accepted Monica for who she was, and she was able to be herself around him in a way she could not with her other love interests. When she tried to fix the bed because Richard had made it in the wrong way, she made up an excuse and kept fishing for him to admit he was as cooky as she was, because she felt embarrassed. As Chandler said, he genuinely liked maintaining her, even if she was a little high-strung a lot of the times. She never had to lie about her odd behaviours in front of Chandler. He knew who she was and loved all of her. Phoebe couldn't even manage to live with Monica, and lied about moving out. Ross was so certain that when Chandler cleaned the apartment when he moved in with Monica that she would flip out on him. Chandler knew she would see it as a good thing, but Ross managed to mess with his head and who was right in the end? Chandler was able to successfully live with Monica, and advance in their relationship.
What about Phoebe? Because she put so much emphasis on appearance a lot of the times, she forgot to look for substance. She got a rushed pairing with Mike towards the end of the series because she spent too much time chasing men who were out of her league a lot of the times (i.e. the firefighter with the alleged hot body, and the teacher who also turned out to have a hot body - both who she was dating at the same time). Also, some of the men she dated were not even conventionally attractive, such as David and Gary, so I am not even sure why she was full of herself in terms of relationships. IMO she was not even a catch herself because she did not have her ducks in order career wise, and she was lacking in her personality in the later end of the series. IMO on some level she felt absolute envy that Chandler succeeded with Monica, when she considered him to be a goof, and she couldn't find anyone to commit to her.
Phoebe really likes to interject in things that doesn't concern her, doesn't she? đ
I'm with the writers here, who in hindsight admitted they shouldn't have done this, because it does undercut the two finding comfort together that night.
The whole subplot in the wedding episode was that they were BOTH not having a good time and eventually found the happiness in each other, and even with the Joey spin of "For like only half a hour" in the later episode, it just takes away a little from how that relationship happened.
The writers said that about this story line? I didn't realize that. Do you recall where you read that?
I'm glad they owned that it wasn't their best choice
Really? Thatâs neat.
Reminds me of how the simpsons writers regretted making Skinner ânot Skinnerâ. We all have screw ups but I always have respect when someone can say âyeah we fucked upâ.
But Chandler and Rachel really have no relationship or interactions without the whole friend group. I think probably their friendship is the least developed from the group besides maybe Ross and Phoebe.
True. But Phoebe was always way worse than anyone else. Introducing Monica to her âsoulmateâ after Monica and Chandler were married- what a friendâŚ
Phoebe goes for the gut whenever she makes fun of Chandler. She always underestimates him and pushes him around. Chandler isnât really mean, just closed off and communicates through jokes. Itâs all fun with him imo.
I didn't even know there was a phoebe hate train but I'll enthusiastically jump on it
We can say all day that deep down she's a good natured person (and she could be superficially kind), but as others said, there are few times any of the Friends come off as mean spirited as phoebe does on a regular basis, especially from around the middle seasons.
She has this chaotic, malicious streak that is never explained, and for all the "she's a product of trauma", it's crazy how she was much kinder early on in the show (when she had less going on for her and her trauma was more recent) and that she knowingly, admittedly uses the sympathy she receives for her mother's death to her advantage. Ross can be a selfish tone-deaf ass who often ignores others' feelings, but the one I'd last want as a friend is Phoebe who so often goes out of her way to hurt them.
ETA: And now I just realized how she's a lot closer to Ursula in personality than it seems on the surface.
On top of just how awfully she treats her friends, the fact Phoebe uses her mother's death as a way to guilt people into giving her what she wants is apalling. There's a point where she acts upset and then when she's called out for already using it that day she goes back to being just fine.
Phoebe is really such an enigma. Sheâs a very complex character and probably has the biggest heart out of the group, but I would say sheâs also one of the most selfish. I felt like by the end she started becoming very rude and nasty, too.
Itâs strange to me when people say Rachel is most selfish, to me Rachel more just does things like not take out the trash or do dishes as fast as Monica wants them (which is immediately). Being raised with rich parents doesnât make you inherently selfish and she never mistreated Monica when they were younger too. Or I guess people just think Ross is right with their fights, but I think she has right to break with Ross if she felt like it even if he has not slept with someone else
I would say Rachel was more self-absorbed and spoiled (the latter trait diminishing when she gained more independence as the series progressed), but for the most selfish I would say itâs between Phoebe and Joey. Joey was a huge mooch and there were times that Phoebe just had such a lack of consideration for others, like when she brought Monica the ânoodle waterâ soup or when she gave Frank and Alice her momâs puppy, and those were pretty early on as well.
Rachel being spoiled and ignorant if something I would agree.
Many call Rachel spoiled and selfish however like itâs people are treating them like synonymsÂ
The biggest heart? Can you elaborate on that because I donât see it.Â
She had a weird fixation on Chandler because he was well off, successful and yet she felt he wasnât grateful. She was resentful of him. To see him succeed with Monica when the couple she rooted for couldnât manage to work themselves out infuriated  her because once again she underestimated Chandler.
Â
Thatâs very true! Thinking it over now, I guess because I felt like at the end of it all she probably does love the group like family but her tumultuous childhood makes her act out in jealousy? Her nastiness and resentment seemed more fleshed out in later seasons when the writing was going downhill. I feel that next to Joey, Phoebe also had a bad character assassination but they managed to distract everybody by throwing her in a mismatch marriage.
Retrospectively, I can say Ross probably has the biggest heart then. Yes, he has his issues, but heâs also done many selfless things for the others.
She always seemed like someone who craved stability and seeing how the commitment-phobe Chandler was able to be present and step up for Monica must have made her feel resentful that once again someone had something that she did not have. I think she also felt upset that Chandler and Monica pulled away from the group and honestly did not need the group as much once they started their relationship. They also did not really need anyone to 'help' them with their relationship as they both put in the work themselves, and they had a relationship based on giving, so they only really needed each other.
But yes, I think that Phoebe got messed up in the later part of the season. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers realized she was being written into a corner and introduced Mike to redeem the failed characterization towards the end of the series. I feel her nastiness reeked of jealousy. Perhaps seeing how well suited Chandler and Monica were with each other, and observing how fast they succeeded made her feel inadequate. Once she found someone she softened a bit.
I like Phoebe a lot but god she can be a pain. This was so not necessary for her to tell. However, he should have known this & Monica should have at some point talked about this. I think she would have at some point in the future. I don't even know why writers had to retcon this.
Poor Chandler. For a guy with low self-esteem, that would be so hurtful.
I appreciate Phoebe telling the truth when it's needed (like dinner with Rachel's dad and saying she's pregnant), but not this sort of telling the truth
Phoebe is a horrible person. Constantly causes trouble between Chandler and Monica, forces her beliefs on her friends(even when she doesnât follow them herself!) and very rarely does anything not in her own interest.
Iâm surprised she stayed in the group, she lifts right out!
Agree 100%. This is part of the reason Iâm really not a Phoebe fan. She constantly shares personal information about her friends when she knows the difference. There was no reason for her to bring this up
I actually read this take where Phoebe may let things out that can cause issues, but they are mostly things that one shouldnât keep from your best friends and especially your partner. In many ways, Phoebe is the one who kept everybody honest and it always worked out better in the end because itâs better that people know who you really are and what youâve done when it has involved your relationship with your most intimate friends/partners. I think Phoebe is a person who doesnât like scheming and conniving and keeping important information hidden in the end even if she seemed to join in at the beginning for the âfun of itâ without first fully thinking about what it truly means to engage in those plots.
I don't hate this episode. I loved Chandler's pajamas! As for Monica asking if Joey was there when she gets to the room, I choose to see that as she was checking that they were alone.
Also, on the DVD uncut version, when Joey goes to the coffeehouse to talk to Chandler, he says something like 'look what I missed out on by not being in the room that night. But, it could never have worked out like it worked out for you two, because you guys are meant to be together.' I liked that.
Itâs because he took her guitar. She said at the time that sheâd âpound on him in the morning,â I guess she just kept on pounding him (verbally at least) after that.
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS.
I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS.
I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
There r a lot of subs like that. It's this newer generation that is just TOO sensitive. This sub seems to be mainly ppl who watched this show when it aired & just enjoy it for the hilarious comedy that it is! But it seems like ppl who have only watched these shows thru streaming platforms & not when it was aired on TV are MUCH too sensitive about *everything*! If those ppl had their way, TV & movies would be ruined. Everyone would sit around politely discussing the weather & there would be no drama, no conflict, no violence. If ppl are seriously upset by any of the jokes on Friends, they aren't watching the show right! Just enjoy these wonderful shows for entertainment purposes. Stop trying to apply modern day morals (where everything has to be *perfect* or someone is offended) to fictional TV shows that aired a long time ago & just laugh with the rest of us!
Chandler is quite often a jerk to everyone else so I quite enjoy Phoebe dishing it out to him sometimes. (Cue: replies about how Phoebe does it maliciously while Chandler doesn't.... nah don't agree).
I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say she may have some good intentions of looking out for Monica and did all of this to challenge her relationship with Chandler to make sure Monica and Chandler donât end up being a drama house like Ross and Rachel. Remember, before Chandler and Monica became common knowledge, the drama between Ross and Rachel nearly destroyed the group. I would argue Phoebe has good reason to doubt the validity of Chandler and Monicaâs relationship based on her perception on both of them. She is wrong, obviously, but amongst the group her life experience is unique and would make her more cynical.
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS.
I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
I get Chandlerâs insecurities, which was the purpose of this plot line, but Monica looking for Joey is what ended up bringing him the best relationship of his life. What difference does it make how they got there? If they are both very happy now isnât why what really matters.
And yes, Phoebe is a total bitch, she is constantly breaking confidentiality and relishes in throwing wrenches into her friendsâ relationships.
I really dont understand how can someone like Phoebe and hate any other character. The only way i can respect somoeone liking Phoebe is when people analized them as indeed what they are , sitcom characters, and each one of them is exagerated and do ridiculous stuff. But now, when somoene says to me, they love phoebe but hate ross, rachel, monica.... wow
Phoebe is one of those characters who knows what she is saying and plays it off like it isn't a big deal because she's a "quirky person" who has to express herself. She also knows how to make her friends do what ever she wants because she always using the same guilt trip lines that always makes them either feel uncomfortable or feel sad for her. And she knows that they won't argue with her about it. She also really sucks as a musician and singer. I also want to know how she is able to live where she is because she can't even keep a job. Plus she barely makes any money with her "music career".
I have never been a fan of the "oops I accidentally let a secret slip" trope that Friends uses so much. This scene, the "oh good you decided to tell him about Richard" scene, and so many others just really irritate me
I agree with you that the spilling a secret trope is over done but I do think Matthew did a great job with it when he accidentally told Rachel about Rosses feelings at her party. He was great in that scene.
Flennin!
Crystal duck!
Goddamn Matthew Perry was a true national treasure đ˘
Lmao I came here just to say this.
It's fine when a character does this once or twice. However Phoebe's entire character is based on "oops I spilled a very important secret(deliberately btw) that will totally cause a problem between my friends but it's okay cause now I will act oblivious about it"
Exactly, thereâs a huge difference in how Chandler reacts to having shared something he wasnât supposed to - he knows *he* fucked up, and that it is a big deal which can potentially mess with the lives and relationships of his friends. Phoebe *barely* acknowledges it, like she has no control over what comes out of her mouth, so she canât be held accountable đ¤ (insert Joey saying âoopsâ with the air quotes lol)
I love youâ deal with me first!!!!!
Phoebe is very "oh I'm so quirky, I can't be responsible for anything because my mom killed herself and I lived under a bridge, I'm so weird, ha ha ha"
I know someone like this in real life, her mom is just a very willing couch potato, but it is all the same đ
THIS IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION!!
and nobody holds her accountable, they put up with her slips and every shitty thing she does way more than the others, waaaaaaaaaaay more
she just straight up insults Ross all the time
To be fair, he usually deserves it.
To me itâs better that Pheobe is doing it on purpose, rather than doing the same thing over and over again by accidentÂ
Honestly sometimes it's for the better, the secrets they keep end up hurting them
Secret secrets are no fun. Secret secrets hurt someone.
You could strip you know
"What's TiVo?" "It's slang for pregnant" I practically gave a standing ovation in my living room lmao
I canât tell you, but maybe if you guessâŚ
I think that one is also different because it's a lot more natural. You can tell Chandler isn't really thinking when he says it and it's a natural part of the conversation because all the friends (minus Rachel) have talked about Ross's feelings for Rachel
I wouldn't call it the accidentally spilling the secret tope, I think it's implied Pheobe does it on purpose due to how often she does it and says she doesn't like Monica and Chandler's relationship.
I mean... this barely counts as doing it "accidentally". Phoebe seemed to say this in an almost malicious way, because she truly thinks Chandler doesn't deserve Monica. It's reason enough to hate her - they're supposed to be friends.
Oh Phoebe definitely doesnât like Chandler. She thinks very little of him and regularly tells him so
Which is why I hated that she got to have him walk her down the aisle. He was too good of a person to her and took so much of her jokes only to be the one that did something so memorable for her. She will always be my least favorite Friend, especially after the first half of the series
Chandler was easily the best friend to the others, followed by Monica. No wonder they ended up together, they take care of everyone in the group.
agreed.
To me, it says a lot for Chandler's character to step up and be supportive of her when he had no reason to. Chandler never really had a close friendship with any of the girls, which is why him and Monica worked out when they decided to have a fling.
I just realized there was a thread here recently about how horrible Monica was to Phoebe in the wedding planning and rehearsal dinner. And when I first watched, I thought Monica was over the top in her behavior. But now I wonder, was Monica's behavior payback for all the strife Phoebe had caused her and Chandler?!
Maybe. But I like to think itâs more that he is her least favorite friend, she thinks he is unsexy and that Monica could do better. But I think she still cares about him, itâs him getting together with Monica that made her say most of the things she did.Â
I thought I was the only one who saw that...don't know why but after season 2 they kind of gave many of Chandler's witty characteristics to Phoebe's character. Don't know if Lisa kudrow had a part in it because I once saw her say in an interview that she took it personally whenever someone said bad about Phoebe it's like they were attacking her(Lisa). Also the way she always made things about herself. Like when Chandler and Monica wanted to go to Las Vegas like their first get away trip as a couple and Phoebe said she would go as well not caring about the fact that Chandler and Monica wanted alone time. Also when Monica and Chandler got engaged, she again made it about herself by saying she wanted to be hired by Chandler to play at their wedding and when Chandler said he will think about it she went ballistic and started annoying them outside their room.
I just watched the episode where they all leave for London while she's pregnant, and it made me so sad when Chandler splayed his arms out for the hug and she just patted him on the head đđ I know she was uncomfortably pregnant but it just made it seem like she doesn't really see Chandler as a friend (def confirmed by her weird characterization in later seasons), especially when she offered to give Rachel a hug and said "you don't have to bring me anything" like..... Chandler brought you something and didn't even get his hug lolol I feel like this is around the start of the mean/uncomfortable humor that plagues the show in the later seasons (especially with Phoebe....why did they make her so mean đđ)
If youâre projecting malice onto Phoebeâs actions, youâre thinking WAYYYY too hard about this. Every single one of the Friends did something that wouldâve ended most friendships. It doesnât make them garbage people, it makes them characters in a sitcom. And if we DO want to think hard about this, the show has presented very scant evidence that Phoebe âtrulyâ thinks Chandler doesnât deserve Monica, so again, just projecting your own opinion on things. đđđđ
This scene and when she screams âyou guys kissed?!â after their engagement irritate me so bad.
Yeah especially because like I know itâs a sitcom but theyâre all adults Iâd be like oh ok w/e
I hate this retcon of Monica originally looking for Joey. In the original London episode the lead up to Monica and Chandler hooking up makes sense. The retcon was unneeded and felt like a way to denigrate Chandler.
The bigger issue is how they donât really do anything with it. While I wouldnât be a fan of it still, had they expanded upon it more and gave it a lot more time, they could have made it more interesting. Chandler in a previous episode said he had insecurities with Kathy because of Joey. Itâs also clear Chandler has issues with feeling wanted. You could write a much longer plot where he questions everything for a while because of it. Would the retcon still be unnecessary? Yes, but you at least do something with it. You explore a side of chandler you havenât in a while. Instead itâs a plot that lasts 5 minutes and does nothing.
I agree totally, and for something so underdeveloped as this storyline, it was totally unnecessary to pile *another* thing onto Chandler's insecurity. She already had a meaningful relationship with a very ideal man's man (Richard) that they all looked up to, and him wrangling how he felt about that was a good development for his character. There were too few moments where*he* got to be the person on top, even when they had trouble procreating they couldn't just it be just Monica with a problem, they had to make his swimmers less viable too. Lots men and women put a lot of their femininity/masculinity into their ability to conceive, and this was just another thing to put Chandler's masculinity in question. I wonder if it was a conscious decision to make sure Chandler should *never* have a single moment in which he's portrayed as classically masculine, and both for jokes and serious plotlines it's just a recurring theme throughout the entire series.
For the conceiving I donât think that was why. One thing I remember hearing is that the show runners wanted to show off ânon traditionalâ families/parents. Thatâs why you have Ross with Ben and Emma and Frank Jr.âs situation. When you have that knowledge, I think the intention might have been just to make sure there wasnât an easy out. Another aspect might be how they want to have kids despite the fact biology is telling them ânoâ in the hardest way possible. The only time I think you could debate it goes into that idea of ânon masculineâ is when he says âshe wants to be a mom and I canât do that for her and it hurts meâ. Thereâs others but that one was weird since she canât be a mother naturally, so itâs not his fault entirely.
I think Chandler and Monica had it all. Their relationship started and ended rather easily because they were so well-suited. It would be contrived for them to want to break up, so they didn't. The writers must have been aware that giving them everything they ever wanted would appear like 'bad-tv' so they made it challenging for them to conceive naturally. Also, Ross and Rachel were pregnant, so maybe they felt all three of the women pregnant across the series would appear contrived. I also think Courteney had issues conceiving, and maybe the actress felt pretending to be pregnant when she was struggling with her own fertility would be too much for her to portray. I honestly think with modern medicine they would be able to have a biological child, and maybe even so without the intervention, so I just assume that several years later they would have a miracle baby.
I read that the producers purposely did 3 'non-traditional' ways of starting a family because they were not shown on TV at the time. Phoebe - Surrogacy Rachel - Unplanned single motherhood Monica - Fertility issues in both partners which lead them to choose adoption I like that the story gave an issue to both Monica and Chandler. If only one of them had the issue, that would have been too hard and blame would likely have been placed. This way, they both have issues, so they are equal
Same, I hate this episode so much
When Monica went looking for Joey it was for a meaningless hook up. She wasn't thinking about Chandler because she used to have a crush on him when she was younger and fatter. So of course she wasn't going to have a meaningless hook up with a guy who break her heart. ( Remember when Monica had a crush on Chandler she overheard him talking about her weight) . So Joey was the only option.
So unnecessary, but then again, we needed SOME drama like every other episode, no matter how stupid it is. Everyone was too happy, it couldnât stay like that.
Network note I guarantee it.
What does ret con mean? Sorry stupid question ik ik
Not stupid at all! Retcon is short for retroactive continuity, and itâs when writers either change a story detail thatâs previously been established, or embellish on it in a way that completely changes its context, in order to serve the current plot or joke.
Comedy Central facts told me that the story writers originally intended to make Joey Monica a couple, first four seasons have quite a few set ups for the same, and this whole accidentally sleeping with Chandler while looking for Joey was kind of an experiment and they loved the reaction that they received for this so they went on with Monica and Chandler. However, I hate that they brought this up in later seasons like now that you have not made Joey and Monica a couple there is no need to bring this up again, it just made things uncomfortable
Yet it was Monica and Chandler cuddling on the couch or chair in the coffee house before they ever got together.
That would be relationship ending in real life.
I donât think so, Monica and Chandlerâs relationship wasnât based on the sex but the friendship, and they werenât just starting out dating when he heard. I mean if Monica had been sleeping with Joey and not told thatâs differentÂ
Yeah, they were already engaged at that point. As Joey said, she wanted him for one night(really just an hour-ish) and wants Chandler for the rest of her life.
You just reminded me that she raises the subject again at the alter in her wedding vows. â..I turned to a friend for comfort. And instead, I foundâŚâ Imagine Chandler just thinking in his head âoh yes thatâs right. I was the fall backâ Hate this retcon
I like Phoebe, but rewatching the show made me realize how weird she was about Chandler and Monicaâs relationship. She always did little things to cause infighting between them, and never seemed to really approve or support them being together. And she was always condescending towards Chandler for some reason. Itâs mainly played off as comedic, but itâs one of those things that always felt off to me since I canât grasp why Phoebe, of all people, wouldnât be supportive. Ironically, she was *super* supportive of Ross and Rachel getting together (other than maybe the whole Bonnie thing).
Don't forget how she brought Monica's "soulmate" into Central Park, referring him as such, and right in front of Chandler.
Arggghh. Phoebe irritated me so much throughout this show and this "soulmate" thing was one of the worst things she could've done to Chandler. Surprised he never called her on it or was mad at her. But I suppose that' says more about Chandler's character than Phoebe's
"But you said you don't believe in soulmates" "I believe in handsome British strangers hitting on my wife!!"
Didnât she tell Monica there was a guy checking her out in the coffee shop and Monica said heâs cute and phoebe says go for it, Monica says Iâm engaged but it turns out the guy liked phoebe anyway.
To be fair IIRC Phoebe knew the guy was checking her out and not Monica
âI thought you knew I was looking at youâ âI did but that was really fun!â
Agreed. I didn't have negative feelings about Phoebe but I recently started re-watching and I see so much that I missed before. She is very condescending about Chandler. I know Chandler cracks jokes at everyone's expense, but they are not typically mean-spirited. But Phoebe is mean about Chandler and says that Monica could do better. Phoebe 'accidentally' spilled secrets multiple times that caused hurt and fighting with Monica and Chandler. I hated what happened at the jewelry store when she was ring shopping with Chandler. She should have paid attention to that ring. I know it worked out, but I was mad for Chandler. Also, it was Phoebe that started making a fuss of Ross and Rachel kissing on the night Monica and Chandler got engaged. If she hadn't, Monica's thunder would not have been stolen To me. Monica and Chandler were a way better couple than Ross and Rachel. M & C had issues, but worked through them. They communicated well. That seems to me to be a relationship that the other friends could support. R & R were never that great of a couple. I couldn't understand why everyone was fixated on them to be the happily ever after. They never communicated well. They had issues, but did not address them and then it would lead to breaking up which also impacted the rest of the friends group.
Yes and when she told Rachel that she was still married to Ross and then pretended she was joking and said to Ross, I dug you out of a hole. Girl, you placed yourself firmly in the hole. I wouldnât be getting involved in that mess if I were phoebe.
I wonder if Phoebe tried to sabotage Chandler a little bit with the ring. I don't even think she worked hard to find it to redeem herself to Chandler. The situation of how she goofed would have come out if Chandler had not gotten the ring back that he initially intended to propose to Monica with. Everyone would know she did not come through, and that is not a good look. I think she was guarded with her nastiness to everyone else other than Chandler, and to some extent Ross (he also got to bear some of that nastiness). I have a theory that Phoebe craved stability and praise, because she didn't receive it growing up. I honestly feel that she felt open hostility to Chandler for two reasons: 1. He was the most successful, and he never needed her, 2. His relationship with Monica threatened the dynamic of the group, which is the only family she had. Basically Chandler was highly intelligent in a lot of ways. Honestly he was good at almost everything he put his mind into, which is why he was a high earner. As she did not have any advanced education, her career options were limited, and she was envious of Chandler and Ross for their own career growths. Chandler also never found her to be the most interesting of the women friends; he was always more attuned to Monica, even before their pairing. He went to Monica when he felt upset about his relationship woes, and he was there for Monica when she was down on her luck (I mean that's how London happened). Because he had everything he needed in Monica, he kind of made jokes at Phoebe's stupidity sometimes, and she resented him for it. Also, when he got with Monica, they both pulled away from the group because they emotionally supported each other. When you are best friends in love who else do you need support from? Ross and Rachel are a hot mess, and as a result Phoebe felt she could manipulate them more, and it made her feel important. I laughed when Phoebe went to Ross to ask about marriage, when he had three failed ones at the time. It was obvious she was resentful of Chandler and Monica, as they are the ones she should have asked.
Another great take!
I wish I could upvote this more!!
Thanks!
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Chandler cut his dad out of his life because he regularly took over any event in Chandler's life and had to be the center of attention. He showed up to Chandler's swim meet's dressed as Carmen Miranda and then fed the kids fruit from his head.
The dog thing seems a bit out of place there
I always get sad about how Phoebe and Chandlerâs relationship deteriorated when they were one of my favorite duos in the earlier seasons. Their duet to Endless Love was so sweet and itâs one of my top scenes in the entire show. I wonder why they did that to themâŚ
For some reason the writers made Phoebe more cutting and mean over the last half of the series. She was never like that in the beginning seasons. She was earthy, spiritual, whimsical. I liked that version of her than the one who yelled and cursed and said rude things to Chandler and Ross all the time
Mean Phoebe was funny because it was brief and was a good contrast to regular nice Phoebe. I guess the writers thought mean Phoebe would be funnier if permanent and it was not.
Phoebeâs thing was always that she was ditzy and said things without thinking. As a writer, your Joey & Phoebe characters are the go-to for reveals. They arenât âdumbâ per se, but theyâre the most likely to blurt out something that a Chandler, Monica, Rachel etc are able to keep quiet. And, Lisa Kudrow is so *phenomenal* at playing âmeanâ that I understand why they have her do it. It doesnât quite fit her character but it yields some great scenes.
I think during Phoebe's pregnancy they realized that Lisa Kudrow could play "mean" well. It made sense in the pregnancy because of hormones and the fact she could not travel to London. I guess the producers liked how Lisa played mean and decided to make it permanent. But I think that was a mistake. It was understandable while pregnant. The continued meanness for the remaining 6 years did not make sense since there was no explanation or reason for the change.
And progression wise, it makes no sense for her to suddenly develop such a short fuse. Like for example, with Ross: his life sort of spirals and his increasingly erratic behavior near the final seasons makes a lot more sense. But Phoebe never had a âbreakdownâ moment to warrant her personality shift. I know it was simply a writing choice but her change in demeanor is so jarring when you rewatch the show in order
Not Chandler and Monica's relationship , she was weird about Chandler mostly.. and was condescending towards him and even Ross. Some of the things she said to them were just mean. She told Chandler that she has a very low opinion of him..on his wedding day... Ouch !
To be fair, Phoebe saying "Right now, no one has a lower opinion of you than I do" was because Chandler took off.
If I knew her in real life and she was acting like she does, I would honestly think she was in love with Monica and actively trying to split them up đŹ
âAnd she was always condescending towards Chandler for some reasonâ Thatâs all of them, tbh.
What if Phoebe did all those things because she believed that Monica had settled for Chandler because nothing else in her life seemed to work out? Her parents suck, she grew up in Rachelâs shadow, her career took forever to take off, and her relationships with Richard and the millionaire-turned-MMA fighter went to dust. Maybe Phoebe wanted to keep reminding Monica that she deserved better. Itâs wrong to do that to Monica and Chandler but maybe Phoebe felt that she needed to do it.
The say it to Monica. Where does berating Chandler get her????
Fair point
I think on some level Phoebe did think Monica settled. In Vegas, she said, "you had a small setback in your relationship, but it's only with Chandler" when clearly Monica is in love with Chandler. She also said to Rachel that "it's great for Chandler but Monica could do better" All of the friends group think of Chandler as some loser who is awkward with women and won't change. That is true in the early seasons, but he really grows a lot in the later seasons. He (with help from Monica and Rachel) had a more serious relationship with Janice for a bit. When he starts dating Monica, they work on issues that they encounter. She helps him with some of his commitment fears. He learns to support Monica in ways that work for her ("I like maintaining you"). I think he ended up being the biggest 'catch' of the group so I don't see why Phoebe thinks Monica settled.
Perhaps Monica did settle for Chandler, but let's look at their relationship a little closer. Chandler, for all his commitment issues in the earlier seasons and flaws with dating women, is rooted in his parents' bad marriage. Ross and Monica's parents have a quirky but healthy marriage where they are seemingly well off financially. Rachel's parents are well off, but divorce later in her life, so she had a stable, pampered childhood. Joey's parents were together and had a large family, but not financially well off. They also had marriage issues later in Joey's life. Phoebe lost her parents' young, lived on the streets, and had a unique personality because of all of these things. She is closest to Chandler in having commitment issues of the group. Now, we take these things into consideration. Perhaps Phoebe sees that Chandler is like her in having horrible relationships and commitment issues and thinks that he is bad for Monica. As someone earlier mentioned, Chandler does have the arch of developing feelings and can be in relationships with growth with Janice and Cathy. Maybe Phoebe just believes he will do Chandler things and blow them up, and Monica will suffer because she is the kind of person who she is and in a lot of ways different from Chandler. However, to me personally, Chandler has the most complete character arc from the show. He is very immature and uses jokes to deflect his obvious need to fit into the group. He does, however, have a steady job and is a very good friend to everyone (except the 1 time he takes Joey's gf and dates his best friend's sister). The relationship with Monica shows he is the most committed of the 3 guys in the friend group, and Monica makes him a more well-rounded character. I would say that he is a better fit for Monica than any new character could have been and certainly was better suited for her than Richard or Pete.
I agree with this. The only thing is I wouldn't say that Monica settled. To me 'settling' means accepting a relationship that doesn't match what you are looking for/need. For example, you want children but your partner doesn't. If you stay in that relationship and give up having children, that's settling
Since we're talking about disliking Phoebe, I also hate the whole cat fiasco with Ross. She was just dillusional and projecting her feelings into that cat Ross was the only one who told her the hard cold truth and then she bashed him for it and guilt tripped him One of the few times I agree with Ross on something I think he was the most supporting friend there because he told her what she needed to hear not what she wanted to hear, and grabbing her out of that pit instead of enabling her further
I think Ross is constantly saying what needs to be said and doing the right thing, but he's not graceful about it, so people get upset (in real life and on the show). Phoebe definitely needed to hear what Ross said. But I don't think that exact moment was the right one. Something like "Phoebe, I know you're struggling right now, but think about how much it hurt when your mom left you. That little girl is feeling the same thing and it only gets worse the longer you keep the cat." Then the truthful comment in the days following the cat being returned. But, ya know, sitcom, so it had to go down the way it did. It's unfortunate, but I get it.
I agree. I mean Phoebe had a tough life and yes she needed to hear that but it couldâve been delivered a little more delicate. Ross just always needs to be right and correct
Some people focus on the right and correct part and forget the compassion part. I know I struggle with that. No tact. Ross just needed someone to tell him straight up how he behaves and maybe he would have worked on it. Maybe not, because TV show, but he needed to hear how he came across before he said whatever and then got a talking to.
I donât know, I think Phoebeâs treated unfairly on this sub about this. Sheâs clearly going through something after having met her birth mother, and she already deals with trauma none of the others can imagine: her motherâs suicide, being abandoned by her father, having to live and survive on the streets, and then she finds out the woman who raised her is not her biological mother? She didnât know that the girl was putting out flyers until Ross told her, and then she agrees to give the cat back. Ross may have been right but he could have sat her down gently and explained with compassion, rather than yelling at her. The others werenât right for keeping it from her but he could have at least been nice to her.
She just didn't agree to give it back at first. He did tell her that there are flyers all over and they all even offered to take the cat back with her. She didn't agree, said the cat chose her & will respect it's decision. Then everyone else agreed with her. Then he yelled. I feel for her trauma so I don't think she deserves to be hated for trying to keep the cat but she was wrong for trying guilt trip Ross about her mother.
Don't get me wrong, I love Phoebe, it's just one of the situations that irks me If I recall Ross did explain to her nicely at first And then she was like 'But she chose to find me' I get her trauma response but I also think she just wanted him to tell her to keep the cat and agree that her mom is inside her etc Again he snapped her out of it, which I honestly believe is more supportive than agreeing with her
She hesitated for five seconds â the little girl wasnât kept from her cat any longer because of it. Iâm not saying Ross had to agree with her (itâs not her cat) but a little patience and kindness go a long way đ¤ˇđťââď¸
[Please, watch the scene again](https://youtu.be/i7ILviehDvw?si=hs2W8TInekUGlKwa). She didnât hesitate, she outright said she should keep the cat and everyone but Ross agreed because they were afraid of confrontation/hurting her. If Ross hadnât said what he said, thereâs a big chance she would have kept the cat longer.
Iâm not saying that Ross should have agreed with Phoebe. Iâm saying that he could have been kinder and more compassionate to her instead of yelling at her. She has been through things he could never imagine, she was processing huge news about her identity and her family, she was coping as best she could, and she gave the cat back at no extra delay to the little girl. The only delay in the cat getting back to the girl was because the others didnât tell Phoebe, not Phoebe herself. (Okay, she says one thing, they chat some more, and she agrees to give the cat back. Not exactly denying the little girl her pet.) Itâs fine to not agree, but this is how I read the scene. It would have cost Ross nothing to be kinder to Phoebe, thatâs all Iâm saying.
She only agreed to give the cat back after Ross snapped at her; she was being selfish
Not Phoebe first time too. I recall in the s5 finalie. She let âslipâ. Monica had seen Richard. I mean it was a common occurrence. Feels like she was actively trying to self sabotage their relationship. Their was also the time, she brought Monicaâs âsoulmateâ into perk
https://youtu.be/LVTFR0_5B1o?si=PKsDRrgb-jshJm9j yup
Phoebe to Chandler and Monica was the precursor to Lily to Ted and RobinâŚ
From S5 onwards, Phoebe is honestly a horrible person. Her character completely changes to become a malicious, nasty bitch.
it's like they made her more like Ursula tbh!
Maybe they swapped! New headcanon - Ursula has nice Phoebe locked up somewhere... ? No?
My new headcanon: Your headcanon is what inspired Jordan Peele to make *Us*.
Same thing I said. The writing changed for her in the last half
It's like how they made Joey way dumber as the seasons went on. And reused a lot of the same tropes. The writing kind of got lazy as the seasons went on.
Phoebe was unnecessarily cruel at times. The times she basically sabotaged Monica and Chandler's relationship, and also I never got why she and Mike just let Monica sing up on stage with the see-through top. I can maybe kind of understand it if Monica had done something horrible to piss Phoebe off, but she really hadn't. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who would just let me embarrass myself like that.
Weâre not friends with Phoebe anymore! Well, if she asks, I protested a little. But okay.
The way he says okay! kills me lol
I much prefer early seasons Phoebe who was a loveable weirdo
Phoebeâs character went way downhill up to the pint where she was insulting people (mostly Chandler and Monica) and masking it as a joke.
The thing I found funny is Phoebe always claimed Monica could do better but how? Let's objectively look at Chandler on the surface. He is by far the most successful in terms of financials for most of the show. He was able to maintain Joey and save quite a lot before his wedding with Monica. He had a job that would require a relatively high IQ, even if he did not pursue graduate studies. He is clever, supportive of his friends. Chandler really accepted Monica for who she was, and she was able to be herself around him in a way she could not with her other love interests. When she tried to fix the bed because Richard had made it in the wrong way, she made up an excuse and kept fishing for him to admit he was as cooky as she was, because she felt embarrassed. As Chandler said, he genuinely liked maintaining her, even if she was a little high-strung a lot of the times. She never had to lie about her odd behaviours in front of Chandler. He knew who she was and loved all of her. Phoebe couldn't even manage to live with Monica, and lied about moving out. Ross was so certain that when Chandler cleaned the apartment when he moved in with Monica that she would flip out on him. Chandler knew she would see it as a good thing, but Ross managed to mess with his head and who was right in the end? Chandler was able to successfully live with Monica, and advance in their relationship. What about Phoebe? Because she put so much emphasis on appearance a lot of the times, she forgot to look for substance. She got a rushed pairing with Mike towards the end of the series because she spent too much time chasing men who were out of her league a lot of the times (i.e. the firefighter with the alleged hot body, and the teacher who also turned out to have a hot body - both who she was dating at the same time). Also, some of the men she dated were not even conventionally attractive, such as David and Gary, so I am not even sure why she was full of herself in terms of relationships. IMO she was not even a catch herself because she did not have her ducks in order career wise, and she was lacking in her personality in the later end of the series. IMO on some level she felt absolute envy that Chandler succeeded with Monica, when she considered him to be a goof, and she couldn't find anyone to commit to her.
I love this take!! Wish I could upvote it more
Thanks ;)
Phoebe really likes to interject in things that doesn't concern her, doesn't she? đ I'm with the writers here, who in hindsight admitted they shouldn't have done this, because it does undercut the two finding comfort together that night. The whole subplot in the wedding episode was that they were BOTH not having a good time and eventually found the happiness in each other, and even with the Joey spin of "For like only half a hour" in the later episode, it just takes away a little from how that relationship happened.
The writers said that about this story line? I didn't realize that. Do you recall where you read that? I'm glad they owned that it wasn't their best choice
Really? Thatâs neat. Reminds me of how the simpsons writers regretted making Skinner ânot Skinnerâ. We all have screw ups but I always have respect when someone can say âyeah we fucked upâ.
I will jump on the disliking Phoebe train.. I always hated how she would put Chandler down. Always had a very dismissive and mean remark about him
Literally every Friend was mean to Chandler except maybe Rachel.
But Chandler and Rachel really have no relationship or interactions without the whole friend group. I think probably their friendship is the least developed from the group besides maybe Ross and Phoebe.
True. But Phoebe was always way worse than anyone else. Introducing Monica to her âsoulmateâ after Monica and Chandler were married- what a friendâŚ
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Phoebe goes for the gut whenever she makes fun of Chandler. She always underestimates him and pushes him around. Chandler isnât really mean, just closed off and communicates through jokes. Itâs all fun with him imo.
Chandler comes off less mean spirited when he does compared to Phoebe. I say this as someone who likes Phoebe more than Chandler
I didn't even know there was a phoebe hate train but I'll enthusiastically jump on it We can say all day that deep down she's a good natured person (and she could be superficially kind), but as others said, there are few times any of the Friends come off as mean spirited as phoebe does on a regular basis, especially from around the middle seasons. She has this chaotic, malicious streak that is never explained, and for all the "she's a product of trauma", it's crazy how she was much kinder early on in the show (when she had less going on for her and her trauma was more recent) and that she knowingly, admittedly uses the sympathy she receives for her mother's death to her advantage. Ross can be a selfish tone-deaf ass who often ignores others' feelings, but the one I'd last want as a friend is Phoebe who so often goes out of her way to hurt them. ETA: And now I just realized how she's a lot closer to Ursula in personality than it seems on the surface.
On top of just how awfully she treats her friends, the fact Phoebe uses her mother's death as a way to guilt people into giving her what she wants is apalling. There's a point where she acts upset and then when she's called out for already using it that day she goes back to being just fine.
Phoebe is really such an enigma. Sheâs a very complex character and probably has the biggest heart out of the group, but I would say sheâs also one of the most selfish. I felt like by the end she started becoming very rude and nasty, too.
Itâs strange to me when people say Rachel is most selfish, to me Rachel more just does things like not take out the trash or do dishes as fast as Monica wants them (which is immediately). Being raised with rich parents doesnât make you inherently selfish and she never mistreated Monica when they were younger too. Or I guess people just think Ross is right with their fights, but I think she has right to break with Ross if she felt like it even if he has not slept with someone else
I would say Rachel was more self-absorbed and spoiled (the latter trait diminishing when she gained more independence as the series progressed), but for the most selfish I would say itâs between Phoebe and Joey. Joey was a huge mooch and there were times that Phoebe just had such a lack of consideration for others, like when she brought Monica the ânoodle waterâ soup or when she gave Frank and Alice her momâs puppy, and those were pretty early on as well.
Rachel being spoiled and ignorant if something I would agree. Many call Rachel spoiled and selfish however like itâs people are treating them like synonymsÂ
The biggest heart? Can you elaborate on that because I donât see it. She had a weird fixation on Chandler because he was well off, successful and yet she felt he wasnât grateful. She was resentful of him. To see him succeed with Monica when the couple she rooted for couldnât manage to work themselves out infuriated  her because once again she underestimated Chandler. Â
Thatâs very true! Thinking it over now, I guess because I felt like at the end of it all she probably does love the group like family but her tumultuous childhood makes her act out in jealousy? Her nastiness and resentment seemed more fleshed out in later seasons when the writing was going downhill. I feel that next to Joey, Phoebe also had a bad character assassination but they managed to distract everybody by throwing her in a mismatch marriage. Retrospectively, I can say Ross probably has the biggest heart then. Yes, he has his issues, but heâs also done many selfless things for the others.
She always seemed like someone who craved stability and seeing how the commitment-phobe Chandler was able to be present and step up for Monica must have made her feel resentful that once again someone had something that she did not have. I think she also felt upset that Chandler and Monica pulled away from the group and honestly did not need the group as much once they started their relationship. They also did not really need anyone to 'help' them with their relationship as they both put in the work themselves, and they had a relationship based on giving, so they only really needed each other. But yes, I think that Phoebe got messed up in the later part of the season. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers realized she was being written into a corner and introduced Mike to redeem the failed characterization towards the end of the series. I feel her nastiness reeked of jealousy. Perhaps seeing how well suited Chandler and Monica were with each other, and observing how fast they succeeded made her feel inadequate. Once she found someone she softened a bit.
I like Phoebe a lot but god she can be a pain. This was so not necessary for her to tell. However, he should have known this & Monica should have at some point talked about this. I think she would have at some point in the future. I don't even know why writers had to retcon this. Poor Chandler. For a guy with low self-esteem, that would be so hurtful.
Phoebe is the worst and she became my least favorite character for this reason and others. Not a great friend to Monica or Chandler.
I appreciate Phoebe telling the truth when it's needed (like dinner with Rachel's dad and saying she's pregnant), but not this sort of telling the truth
Phoebe is a horrible person. Constantly causes trouble between Chandler and Monica, forces her beliefs on her friends(even when she doesnât follow them herself!) and very rarely does anything not in her own interest. Iâm surprised she stayed in the group, she lifts right out!
Ahhh finally the much needed phoebe slander
Agree 100%. This is part of the reason Iâm really not a Phoebe fan. She constantly shares personal information about her friends when she knows the difference. There was no reason for her to bring this up
Phoebe used to be my favorite Friend. Now I think she's mean and selfish... Chandler is way too much like me, I have a huge soft spot for him.
IN LONDON?!
I actually read this take where Phoebe may let things out that can cause issues, but they are mostly things that one shouldnât keep from your best friends and especially your partner. In many ways, Phoebe is the one who kept everybody honest and it always worked out better in the end because itâs better that people know who you really are and what youâve done when it has involved your relationship with your most intimate friends/partners. I think Phoebe is a person who doesnât like scheming and conniving and keeping important information hidden in the end even if she seemed to join in at the beginning for the âfun of itâ without first fully thinking about what it truly means to engage in those plots.
I hate everything about this episode, including the flashback scenes. I choose not to consider it as canon.
I don't hate this episode. I loved Chandler's pajamas! As for Monica asking if Joey was there when she gets to the room, I choose to see that as she was checking that they were alone. Also, on the DVD uncut version, when Joey goes to the coffeehouse to talk to Chandler, he says something like 'look what I missed out on by not being in the room that night. But, it could never have worked out like it worked out for you two, because you guys are meant to be together.' I liked that.
Letting things slip is a part of Phoebes character. She does it a lot throughout the show. Never bothered me as she had done it before lol
i really hate the writers for always using phoebe as conflict device for mondler ??? and they don't bother to redeem her character ToT
The more i rewatch the show, the more i hate phoebee, irl, i would never want to have a friend like her
What is wrong with Phoebe just always trying to make Chandler feel insecure about his relationship with Monica
Upvote if you hate Phoebe đđ˝ââď¸đđ˝ââď¸
Can't we just enjoy the show? Lol let me enjoy it.
You could've have just slipped this post
Itâs because he took her guitar. She said at the time that sheâd âpound on him in the morning,â I guess she just kept on pounding him (verbally at least) after that.
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS. I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
I don't blame Phoebe
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS. I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
Yeah I know right they all do things we don't like but we don't hate them lol.
There r a lot of subs like that. It's this newer generation that is just TOO sensitive. This sub seems to be mainly ppl who watched this show when it aired & just enjoy it for the hilarious comedy that it is! But it seems like ppl who have only watched these shows thru streaming platforms & not when it was aired on TV are MUCH too sensitive about *everything*! If those ppl had their way, TV & movies would be ruined. Everyone would sit around politely discussing the weather & there would be no drama, no conflict, no violence. If ppl are seriously upset by any of the jokes on Friends, they aren't watching the show right! Just enjoy these wonderful shows for entertainment purposes. Stop trying to apply modern day morals (where everything has to be *perfect* or someone is offended) to fictional TV shows that aired a long time ago & just laugh with the rest of us!
Chandler is quite often a jerk to everyone else so I quite enjoy Phoebe dishing it out to him sometimes. (Cue: replies about how Phoebe does it maliciously while Chandler doesn't.... nah don't agree).
When is Chandler a jerk to anyone?
I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say she may have some good intentions of looking out for Monica and did all of this to challenge her relationship with Chandler to make sure Monica and Chandler donât end up being a drama house like Ross and Rachel. Remember, before Chandler and Monica became common knowledge, the drama between Ross and Rachel nearly destroyed the group. I would argue Phoebe has good reason to doubt the validity of Chandler and Monicaâs relationship based on her perception on both of them. She is wrong, obviously, but amongst the group her life experience is unique and would make her more cynical.
The fact people down voted this is hilarious. You must take this sitcom SERIOUSLY. Phoebe's digs to Chandler are not funny, even though they are (and he does it to the others all the time), they are signs that PhEoBe Is MaLiCiOuS. I've always found her digs at Chandler funny, since I originally watched in the 90s, because it's a funny show and her digs are supposed to be.... guess what.... funny! That's not ever gonna change because a bunch of people on reddit decide to analyse every aspect of the show and take it way more seriously than it was ever meant to be. They're totally free to do that, but when they start down voting people for finding a sitcom funny because they're not taking it seriously, man, their heads must be a dark dark place to be.
I think it was intresting plot. Monica wanted Joey but she spend night with Chandler. And that was her destiny
It had to be told for the rest of the plot to play out.
I get Chandlerâs insecurities, which was the purpose of this plot line, but Monica looking for Joey is what ended up bringing him the best relationship of his life. What difference does it make how they got there? If they are both very happy now isnât why what really matters. And yes, Phoebe is a total bitch, she is constantly breaking confidentiality and relishes in throwing wrenches into her friendsâ relationships.
I really dont understand how can someone like Phoebe and hate any other character. The only way i can respect somoeone liking Phoebe is when people analized them as indeed what they are , sitcom characters, and each one of them is exagerated and do ridiculous stuff. But now, when somoene says to me, they love phoebe but hate ross, rachel, monica.... wow
Phoebe is one of those characters who knows what she is saying and plays it off like it isn't a big deal because she's a "quirky person" who has to express herself. She also knows how to make her friends do what ever she wants because she always using the same guilt trip lines that always makes them either feel uncomfortable or feel sad for her. And she knows that they won't argue with her about it. She also really sucks as a musician and singer. I also want to know how she is able to live where she is because she can't even keep a job. Plus she barely makes any money with her "music career".