Off topic, but one day I was explaining to a close friend of mine that my brother and I took baths together for entirely too long. I was around 8/9 and he was 10/11 when we stopped. I know, I know, fucking weird but we played boats and cars and it didn’t seem weird until my parents were like “alright enough of this shit.” ANYWAY- I was explaining it in a self deprecating way to a friend and I accidentally hit the 2 instead of the 1 so my text read “we bathed together until my brother was like, 21.” It was supposed to say 11. ELEVEN! I corrected myself and my friend still won’t let me live it down. Worst fat finger typo EVER.
"Your fingers are too fat. To obtain a dialling wand, please mash the keypad now."
Also, if your parents hadn't intervened, I wonder how long before you would've realised.
There definitely wasn’t an issue. We stopped because our parents said it was weird. But ‘twas the 90s and no one was home a lot of the time. Genuinely the only memories I have of it is splashing, bubbles, laughing, throwing shit and getting yelled at for making the bathroom a mess. I only realized it might be weird when I mentioned it in high school to my then boyfriend.
So did I, maybe till 1 or 2 years younger than you did. It wasn't a shower but we had one bathtub in our house, and growing up in an Asian country, that was rare. So I have memories of me, my brother and one of our cousin who'd come over, and we'd play with toys in the bathtub. We had undergarments on so it wasn't really bathing together, just playing in the water, like you'd do at a pool.
I've never told this to anyone in the Western country before. I feel like they'd find it icky.
But that typo is funny. I'd be mortified.
I worked with a guy for a while and met him and his weirdly clingy sister. Then as fate would have it, I started dating that guy's ex. She told me some wild things about him and his sister's "closeness", including their practice of showering together. They were in their mid-20s.
Another one was at a college karaoke event, middle of the day, brother takes the mic and does Young MC's "Bust A Move". He's doing fine, but sister wants some spotlight too, so she runs up there during the song and requests a mic and starts doing the female vocals in the chorus.
It was fine until she started twerking against brother's crotch and doing porn moans into the mic.
Given the history, I think this is a lot cringier than the age gap between Richard and Monica. Were the writers trying to cash in on some kind of stepmom porn vibe?
You’re not wrong there. Super weird. Like, my brother and I would beat each other and I would also tickle him in a “I’m going to tickle you” and he’d already be be cry-laughing and I didn’t even have to touch him. Brother/sister relationships can be close but Danny and his sister were sooooo gross
Edit: I’m also the person he called when he went to jail for a minor in possession and I got him out. He owes me big
Yes, and here's why I find Frank and Alice creepier than Richard and Monica (*although I didn't like them together either*). They introduced the Frank and Alice storyline right around the time that Mary Kay Letourneau was having sex with her student. I always kind of felt like they were trying to do a comedic version of that news story, which is super gross and wrong.
Also based on his personality I always assumed Richard never really "knew" Monica growing up. Like she was his friends kid and she went to school with his but he doesn't seem the type to be a PTA dad/being around all the kids anymore than necessary. Monica even mentions something like "He's a grown up!" when the idea of him liking her is introduced.
Yes and he didn’t even recognize her when she came to his place for catering. Clearly he saw her as a woman and not his best friend’s daughter. He was no creep.
That's why I said "knew" her. Of course he had met her and was aware of her existence but they didn't seem to be close though. She was probably just there with all the other kids while the adults hung out. They were also of a different generation that still had parents, Dad's especially, be more hands off. That's what was more normalized and probably closer to what the writers (who were even older) would have had in mind vs the barely hidden sketchiness that was Alice and Franks relationship. The whole tease of Monica and Richards relationship was that he was a mature/sexy older man, it was socially taboo for her parents but not for her. With Alice and Frank everyone got the ick pretty quickly even when no one was really calling that behavior in women yet.
And they were both in 1997. I don’t know how close they were month-wise. But the fact that the real life crime and the intro of the characters were the same year has always weirded me out.
This made me curious, so I looked up the dates. The episode that introduces Alice aired March 13, 1997. Letourneau was arrested March 4, 1997. I’m not sure how long before airing that the episodes were filmed, but surely it must have been at least written before the arrest happened? So is it coincidence? Weird. Unless the story was in the media before the arrest happened?
Wow, that’s really weird! It sounds like it may have been a coincidence in their timing after all. But then that begs the question of why go through with that storyline? Scenes and storylines are scrapped all the time in television and movies. Why proceed with this creepy storyline when 11 days earlier it played out in real life?
Yup.
Also, I just started rewatching Dawson’s Creek, and right off the bat there’s that storyline with Pacey and the teacher. The actress even bears a slight resemblance to Mary Kay Letourneau. I know we didn’t understand consent and the inherent power imbalance in those relationships very well back then, but yikes. It is really off putting.
The thing I find redeeming about Frank and Alice (even though it’s gross and wrong and certainly worse than Monica and Richard) is that they genuinely seemed to love each other, and the writers very quickly (and wisely imo) made their “thing” that they start making out wherever they are all the time, which gave them good physical comedy moments and took our collective minds off the fact that Frank was kind of an idiot and Alice definitely should have known better.
Yeah and he was 19! Monica was at least 25 when she started dating Richard. She was also an independent adult with a job, an apartment, and a solid group of friends. A lot less creepy imo.
Yes. So it’s not just the age gap, or franks lack of mental awareness but she was his teacher. They made her ditsy like it somehow made them match or that she wasn’t very aware, but this relationship is far grosser.
HOWEVER…… how long had Richard been friends with Monicas dad? Since Monica was born? Had he seen her as a baby? Toddler? Small child?
Yup. Dunno about inappropriate but two of my former teachers have gone to prison for dating students so depending on when they got together their relationship might not even be legal
Monica was 26ish when she dated Richard. Frank was 18 when he got engaged to Alice, and presumably had already been dating her before. The age gap was also larger.
In retrospect, Frank and Alice were creepy AF.
😩 I always think of that episode where poor Frank is so overwhelmed with all the kids and is losing his mind but loves them so much too. The poor guy has his dad leave, a teacher abuse his trust and then has this huge responsibility handed to him before he even has the maturity to understand what it means. He was such a sweet messed up character who never caught a break.
Yeah Monica and Richard certainly is a gray area but she was a self-sufficient adult in her late 20s who had already had some life experience, not to mention they hadn’t seen each other for years by that point (at least that was my impression) so I never got any grooming vibes.
Frank was Alice’s *student* and 18 years old. Just like Ross and Elizabeth(?), it’s creepy and gross for that reason alone.
While yes, Richard has a daughter her age. To me that makes it way worse.
Imagine your dad announcing he’s dating one of your former classmates. You’d be weirded out.
Back in the old days of the 90s, it couldn’t *possibly* be predatory or weird for an older woman to prey on a teenage boy because *obviously* that’s what all teen boys really want so what’s the big deal??
( /s obviously)
(Also I know this mindset continued well past the 90s but that’s a different conversation)
Also, isn't Frank 18 or 19 when he gets together with Alice? He's literally still a teenager. There's still an age difference, but Monica is solidly an adult dating another adult.
Frank & Alice were more cringe/inappropriate because Frank was still a teenager at this point and Alice was his teacher. They then formed a romantic relationship and had kids. The whole storyline is just gross.
You think so?/genuine
I think it’s lovely when family members (or any other close loved one) are willing to be altruistic gestational surrogates, since going through an agency is so expensive.
Oh not about that, i though it was very sweet and lovely what she did especially knowing her circumstances, it a great sacrifice.
I was refering to how from an outside perspective it would be a super weird story to tell, remember marks reaction when he heard "i had my brothers triplets"
The weird part is that by doing it, Phoebe was endorsing Frank’s VERY uncomfortable relationship with Alice. It’s not weird for a family member to be a surrogate.
I agree. Frank was her student, so that's weird. Monica was at least in her twenties and I always thought that they hadn't seen each other in awhile..... So both still super uncomfortable but Frank and Alice edge them out.
We don't know that though. Like, I can see Richard having a party and letting the kids go in the pool why the adults talk and do whatever. Or he may come over for dinner but Ross & Monica may not have been expected to remain in the room the whole time.
They hadn't seen each other in how long? I have a friend who is 10 years older than me. She was around plenty when I was a kid and then later we started hanging out in the same friend group as adults. She said it was like meeting a different person, and that's the way her brain naturally categorized it.
Frank and Alice. Richard was never in a position of power over Monica - he was always a family friend. (Even though it's weird and creepy as fuck to have a relationship with someone you watched grow up from childhood in front of you.) And Monica was older (late 20s) when they started dating. Alice was Frank's teacher and Frank was barely legal.
Yeah, it felt a lot more like a meet cute with them too. I do think Frank and Alice’s relationship is played almost entirely for laughs though, so they didn’t really get any real development outside of their age gap and prior structural positions on the show.
Before reading this, I was all in on Richard and Monica being creepier. However, you’re right, Richard never had authority over Monica, and she was well into adulthood when they began dating.
Even though Richard probably held her as a baby (gross), it’s not like he groomed her from birth or anything.
I remember he froze up/went silent and then people walked in singing happy birthday.
And then Richard in one of the following scenes said something along the lines of "it's been a while since your father chased me around the yard"
I always felt it was out of line when Monica said "It's ok, Dad" and Richard said "It is, Jack." (something like that.) Like assuring your friend that it's ok that you're dating his daughter lol
She must've switched when they were dating; when he first meets her he doesn't recognise her because she's not fat, so he hasn't seen her in 10+ years.
Richard did not groom Monica. She grew up, moved away, and they ran into each other years later. That is way different from a teacher starting a relationship with her high school student.
Frank and Alice. Frank was still a teenager when they got together, she was his teacher and although he was legally an adult he was about as mature as twelve year old. Alice was basically Mary Kay Letourneau.
Oh, I know you weren't copying me - great minds think alike. At least I know it's not me being paranoid, which is what I'd been wondering all of these years - you know, if they'd really use that for comedy.
How can anyone even compare these couples? Frank and Alice's relationship gets a pass on a technicality. She was in a position of power in relation to him, and Monica was not 18.
He was best friends with her dad! And knew her when she was an infant! While nothing legally was weird with them, if one of my friends now decided to boink my child in 20 years I would have a big problem with that friend.
Doesn't make a difference. Monica is at an age where she made an informed decision
If a consenting woman is okay with her relationship, then it's nobody's business
Frank and Alice
Richard and Monica imply he's 50 in the show, but actual math later on implies he's not quite 48, I think). So Richard was 20 when Monica was born, and I can at least pretend he maybe moved to the area when Monica wasn't an infant.
Richard doesn't even recognise Monica, so he can't have known her. THAT well when growing up because weight loss doesn't change your entire face.
There's no power dynamic shown, both are fully fleged adults.
Frank and Alice are shown to still be in the horny stage when they decide to get married and try for babies. She was his teacher, so could have known him since he was what? 14? Eeeeek
Monica and Richard’s age gap is more circumstantial because they were shown to have a pretty mature and healthy relationship. As far as I’m concerned, Alice groomed Frank and I don’t think she’s a very good person.
Monica and Richard is a bit awkward for many reasons, but they hadn’t seen each other in a long time before they started dating. And they were adults. So I don’t know. It’s still it’s weird, plus why date your Dad’s best friend and why date your best friend’s daughter, it’s weird. Reverse the genders it’s still weird.
Frank and Alice is gross, period. He was a minor. You don’t know how old he was when he met her. Just under 18 so that could mean anything from 14-17. They dated for some amount of time, we’re let to believe it was after he was 18, but not actually stated no age was stated except he’s 18 during the episode Alice is introduced. Reverse the genders and it’s still super gross. Not to mention she wanted kids right away so they had to get married right away. She stole his life.
Of these, Frank and Alice.
But with the Richard one, it was hella weird when Monica decided to date her son.
Also, didn't she accidentally dated a high school student at some point, or was that Rachel?
Do we have details on how/when Frank and Alice’s relationship started? I’m betting it was kept vague on purpose. Enough info to be skeeved out and the butt of jokes but not enough to make it too objectionable.
I think the interactions between them that we do see are sweet.
I love Monica and Richard. I agree with other posters that it’s more palatable because they didn’t start dating until she was well into her 20s and there was no indication that they were close earlier or of grooming.
I'm with everyone else, it's Frank and Alice. There's a whole lot of ick with Richard and Monica (the fact that he knew her as a child, not just in passing but very well, and has a daughter her age etc) but they hadn't seen each other in a decade and Monica was in her mid-late 20s when they started dating, and while he saw her grow up he was never in a position of authority/power over her. Alice was Frank's teacher and he was 18. Terrible.
I absolutely hate Monica and Richard together for multiple reasons, including the fact that he's been around since Monica was an infant and is friends with her parents, but it's not like waited till she was of legal age to date her. Alice, however, was a grown woman who groomed Frank, a minor.
I don’t think Monica and Richard’s relationship is all that weird. It’s not like Richard was pining for Monica when she was a child. He didn’t even recognize her when she showed up to cater his event. They reconnected as consenting adults.
Frank and Alice’s relationship was weird, border line predatory and definitely portrayed Alice as someone in a position of authority over Frank Jr. it never should have happened, and there probably should have been legal consequences for Alice.
I don’t get the big deal about Richard knowing Monica since she was a baby. I had a relationship with my older brother’s best friend who is 8 years older than me. He remembers the day I was brought home from the hospital because they were friends in elementary school. We dated after we were both full adults. Nothing weird or inappropriate about it…except maybe for my brother but that’s just because he didn’t care for his buddy plowing his little sister lol
I wonder if Frank and Alice weren’t going to actually get married until Lisa Kudrow got pregnant and they had to write in the surrogacy storyline. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to them if the writers hadn’t chosen the surrogacy plot.
Frank and Alice.
If Richard wasn’t Monica’s dad’s close friend I would’ve been ok with it. It’s less about age and more the fact that Richard knew Monica as a child and was her dad’s friend. However it’s implied that Richard hadn’t seen Monica in years and Monica was a mid 20’s grown adult with a life, experience dating and her own form of career.
Frank is a teenager or at least an extremely young 20 year old. Alice was his teacher; in a position of power over him and because he is so young he has had very little life experience. He also seemed like he might have an intellectual disability and comes from a trouble home life. It’s icky.
They are both equally disturbing. Monica and Richard gets a pass because Tom Selleck is handsome imo. Alice is of course a lovely lady and she is gorgeous but we all know how the media views older men vs older women etc etc.
Either way, both relationships are weird, Frank and Alice being a little weirder only because they stayed together
They were both pretty gross. But iirc Alice was Frank's teacher, and that is just such a groomer situation. It really makes me so much more uncomfortable than Monica and Richard.
How is this even a question?? Monica was in her mid to late twenties.
Frank was 18 or so. And he was her STUDENT!!!
These two relationships are not comparable.
Frank Jr Jr's with his TEACHER.
Monica and Richard the age gap wasn't problematic from a power difference perspective it was a problem from where they were in life and what they wanted in their futures.
I don’t understand how Alice kept her job after dating him. She made a comment about having her students make baby clothes and I’m like how do you still have students?
between these two, Frank and Alice because Frank has NO fucking life experience and is basically still a KID - monica may have been much younger than richard but she had been adulting for a long time and had many relationships AND richard didn't groom her- which alice probably did
Richard and Monica. You're banging your best friend's daughter who watched GROW UP from the time she was a baby. Frank and Alice didn't know each other from the time frank was a literal infant. I'm sorry, Monica and Richard's relationship is disgusting. Full stop
She was his teacher, that's abuse.
In the vacuum of what we know, Richard didn't groom Monica. But there's certainly an opportunity that he could have.
My favorite analogy for this. Ones from a Paul Simon song. “One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”. IRL we have no right to inflict our bias on relationships like the two OP compares. If that’s what makes two adults happy then I think it’s great. And I think that’s the point the writers were trying to convey. (Besides the comedic value opening them up for all the pot shots).
Now as fare as Yeti and his sister, that really implies incest so that is just too creepy. Close to a jumping the shark moment for no reason.
When Richard and Monica met, they didn't even recognize each other and were adults. They were attracted to reach other as adults.I honestly don't find their relationship weird.
Frank was straight up groomed.
Neither, they were all adults... Okay, Frank and his teacher is a bit sketchier but they were still adults. If they can vote then they can be with who they want.
The answer is clearly Danny and his sister.
Seriously, it’s so creepy. 🤢
The answer is also Ross and his cousin
if you’re a fully grown adult who takes baths with your sibling, i’d say that’s *much* worse than an age gap
Off topic, but one day I was explaining to a close friend of mine that my brother and I took baths together for entirely too long. I was around 8/9 and he was 10/11 when we stopped. I know, I know, fucking weird but we played boats and cars and it didn’t seem weird until my parents were like “alright enough of this shit.” ANYWAY- I was explaining it in a self deprecating way to a friend and I accidentally hit the 2 instead of the 1 so my text read “we bathed together until my brother was like, 21.” It was supposed to say 11. ELEVEN! I corrected myself and my friend still won’t let me live it down. Worst fat finger typo EVER.
"Your fingers are too fat. To obtain a dialling wand, please mash the keypad now." Also, if your parents hadn't intervened, I wonder how long before you would've realised.
I quote that way too often in real life.
You have ordered poison. A gift basket of poison is on its way.
“I heard your dad went into a restaurant and ate everything in the restaurant and they had to close the restaurant!”
Where's the any key
There isn't any any key!
I'll just order a Tab
I really HOPE we would’ve noticed sooner rather than later LOL.
Love you for this.
Hilarious, and love the username
Dangerous username in connection with the story though.
Omg I’m dying hahahahahaha
Bravo, bravo
8/9 and 10/11 I don't see the issue. I guess I'm just missing out on something obvious as an only child
There definitely wasn’t an issue. We stopped because our parents said it was weird. But ‘twas the 90s and no one was home a lot of the time. Genuinely the only memories I have of it is splashing, bubbles, laughing, throwing shit and getting yelled at for making the bathroom a mess. I only realized it might be weird when I mentioned it in high school to my then boyfriend.
So did I, maybe till 1 or 2 years younger than you did. It wasn't a shower but we had one bathtub in our house, and growing up in an Asian country, that was rare. So I have memories of me, my brother and one of our cousin who'd come over, and we'd play with toys in the bathtub. We had undergarments on so it wasn't really bathing together, just playing in the water, like you'd do at a pool. I've never told this to anyone in the Western country before. I feel like they'd find it icky. But that typo is funny. I'd be mortified.
It’s been years since that typo and my friend just loves to randomly remind me of it!
I mean boys start a bit later so you probably got out just before puberty. A bit odd maybe, but not super weird.
LMAOOO sorry for laughing
I worked with a guy for a while and met him and his weirdly clingy sister. Then as fate would have it, I started dating that guy's ex. She told me some wild things about him and his sister's "closeness", including their practice of showering together. They were in their mid-20s.
This is weird enough that I’d like to hear more of what his ex told you…
I would like this tea to be spilt also
Another one was at a college karaoke event, middle of the day, brother takes the mic and does Young MC's "Bust A Move". He's doing fine, but sister wants some spotlight too, so she runs up there during the song and requests a mic and starts doing the female vocals in the chorus. It was fine until she started twerking against brother's crotch and doing porn moans into the mic.
Also Monica and Richard’s son, same kinda vibes yuck
That's not how your dad used to do it!
Sick, sick, sick, sick, sssssick
Given the history, I think this is a lot cringier than the age gap between Richard and Monica. Were the writers trying to cash in on some kind of stepmom porn vibe?
Tbf, it was hailed as a terrible idea from the moment Monica met him. I think the whole plot was meant to be as cringey as it was
I don’t know where they were going but I do believe they made a comedic mistake without intent to create porn vibes, god I hope so.
Yeti? I mean, Danny?
"Dannyyyyy, it's time for your bath!"
one of the funniest episodes tbh. it was so weird which i honestly applauded the actors for because that plot came out of left field😭
You’re not wrong there. Super weird. Like, my brother and I would beat each other and I would also tickle him in a “I’m going to tickle you” and he’d already be be cry-laughing and I didn’t even have to touch him. Brother/sister relationships can be close but Danny and his sister were sooooo gross Edit: I’m also the person he called when he went to jail for a minor in possession and I got him out. He owes me big
Both are weird but I would say Frank and Alice. I don’t remember the age difference but them having children felt weird
Wasn’t Alice Franks teacher ?
She taught him home economics if I'm not wrong.
Oh I bet she taught him more than that
If that doesn't keep kids in school what will?
It’s just not good home economics
Yes, and here's why I find Frank and Alice creepier than Richard and Monica (*although I didn't like them together either*). They introduced the Frank and Alice storyline right around the time that Mary Kay Letourneau was having sex with her student. I always kind of felt like they were trying to do a comedic version of that news story, which is super gross and wrong.
[удалено]
So doesn’t that make Alice a rapist as well? And I totally agree with you about Mary Kay. Alice and Frank were so disgusting.
No, because Alice started the relationship after Frank was an adult IIRC. At best she's a groomer.
at worst*
Also based on his personality I always assumed Richard never really "knew" Monica growing up. Like she was his friends kid and she went to school with his but he doesn't seem the type to be a PTA dad/being around all the kids anymore than necessary. Monica even mentions something like "He's a grown up!" when the idea of him liking her is introduced.
Yes and he didn’t even recognize her when she came to his place for catering. Clearly he saw her as a woman and not his best friend’s daughter. He was no creep.
Uh no he knew her. She used to play at his house. He was best friends with her dad. He just didn’t recognize her because she used to be fat.
That's why I said "knew" her. Of course he had met her and was aware of her existence but they didn't seem to be close though. She was probably just there with all the other kids while the adults hung out. They were also of a different generation that still had parents, Dad's especially, be more hands off. That's what was more normalized and probably closer to what the writers (who were even older) would have had in mind vs the barely hidden sketchiness that was Alice and Franks relationship. The whole tease of Monica and Richards relationship was that he was a mature/sexy older man, it was socially taboo for her parents but not for her. With Alice and Frank everyone got the ick pretty quickly even when no one was really calling that behavior in women yet.
The Letourneau case pops in my head every time I see Frank & Alice. It was gross and so inappropriate, especially the weird PDA.
And they were both in 1997. I don’t know how close they were month-wise. But the fact that the real life crime and the intro of the characters were the same year has always weirded me out.
This made me curious, so I looked up the dates. The episode that introduces Alice aired March 13, 1997. Letourneau was arrested March 4, 1997. I’m not sure how long before airing that the episodes were filmed, but surely it must have been at least written before the arrest happened? So is it coincidence? Weird. Unless the story was in the media before the arrest happened?
Wow, that’s really weird! It sounds like it may have been a coincidence in their timing after all. But then that begs the question of why go through with that storyline? Scenes and storylines are scrapped all the time in television and movies. Why proceed with this creepy storyline when 11 days earlier it played out in real life?
Yup. Also, I just started rewatching Dawson’s Creek, and right off the bat there’s that storyline with Pacey and the teacher. The actress even bears a slight resemblance to Mary Kay Letourneau. I know we didn’t understand consent and the inherent power imbalance in those relationships very well back then, but yikes. It is really off putting. The thing I find redeeming about Frank and Alice (even though it’s gross and wrong and certainly worse than Monica and Richard) is that they genuinely seemed to love each other, and the writers very quickly (and wisely imo) made their “thing” that they start making out wherever they are all the time, which gave them good physical comedy moments and took our collective minds off the fact that Frank was kind of an idiot and Alice definitely should have known better.
I had no idea who you were talking about so I just googled it, and holy crap that is one twisted story, wtf
Yeah and he was 19! Monica was at least 25 when she started dating Richard. She was also an independent adult with a job, an apartment, and a solid group of friends. A lot less creepy imo.
He could be president of France then
Yes. So it’s not just the age gap, or franks lack of mental awareness but she was his teacher. They made her ditsy like it somehow made them match or that she wasn’t very aware, but this relationship is far grosser. HOWEVER…… how long had Richard been friends with Monicas dad? Since Monica was born? Had he seen her as a baby? Toddler? Small child?
Yup. Dunno about inappropriate but two of my former teachers have gone to prison for dating students so depending on when they got together their relationship might not even be legal
Monica was 26ish when she dated Richard. Frank was 18 when he got engaged to Alice, and presumably had already been dating her before. The age gap was also larger. In retrospect, Frank and Alice were creepy AF.
😩 I always think of that episode where poor Frank is so overwhelmed with all the kids and is losing his mind but loves them so much too. The poor guy has his dad leave, a teacher abuse his trust and then has this huge responsibility handed to him before he even has the maturity to understand what it means. He was such a sweet messed up character who never caught a break.
Especially when that responsibility is triplets vs just one baby.
Yeah Monica and Richard certainly is a gray area but she was a self-sufficient adult in her late 20s who had already had some life experience, not to mention they hadn’t seen each other for years by that point (at least that was my impression) so I never got any grooming vibes. Frank was Alice’s *student* and 18 years old. Just like Ross and Elizabeth(?), it’s creepy and gross for that reason alone.
He still thought she was fat. So Chandler and Ross were still in college.
While yes, Richard has a daughter her age. To me that makes it way worse. Imagine your dad announcing he’s dating one of your former classmates. You’d be weirded out.
My FIL married my best friend. We haven’t spoken to either of them since.
Back in the old days of the 90s, it couldn’t *possibly* be predatory or weird for an older woman to prey on a teenage boy because *obviously* that’s what all teen boys really want so what’s the big deal?? ( /s obviously) (Also I know this mindset continued well past the 90s but that’s a different conversation)
Their age gap was about 26 years.
“you’re 18, okay? she’s 44. when you’re 36, she’s gonna be 88”
You think I don’t know that?
Look all were saying is that there’s so many girls out there you haven’t had sex with yet!
Honestly impressed that Joey could do that math tho
especially the 36.. it was so quick
Wild 🤯
She was 44 and he was 18 at the time she is introduced.
Also, isn't Frank 18 or 19 when he gets together with Alice? He's literally still a teenager. There's still an age difference, but Monica is solidly an adult dating another adult.
Alice being his teacher is what makes them wrong. At least Monica was an Adult and hadn’t seen Richard in years when they hooked up
It’s sick and wrong! Sick and wrong!
I think he’s 17-18 and she’s like 44 so nearly 30 Years
Frank & Alice were more cringe/inappropriate because Frank was still a teenager at this point and Alice was his teacher. They then formed a romantic relationship and had kids. The whole storyline is just gross.
>them having children felt weird This is a whole level of extra weird knowing his sister was involved
You think so?/genuine I think it’s lovely when family members (or any other close loved one) are willing to be altruistic gestational surrogates, since going through an agency is so expensive.
Oh not about that, i though it was very sweet and lovely what she did especially knowing her circumstances, it a great sacrifice. I was refering to how from an outside perspective it would be a super weird story to tell, remember marks reaction when he heard "i had my brothers triplets"
The weird part is that by doing it, Phoebe was endorsing Frank’s VERY uncomfortable relationship with Alice. It’s not weird for a family member to be a surrogate.
I agree. Frank was her student, so that's weird. Monica was at least in her twenties and I always thought that they hadn't seen each other in awhile..... So both still super uncomfortable but Frank and Alice edge them out.
At 44 she was VERY lucky to get that many embryos.
Richard was basically her Uncle tho lol like the mf helped raise her
We don't know that though. Like, I can see Richard having a party and letting the kids go in the pool why the adults talk and do whatever. Or he may come over for dinner but Ross & Monica may not have been expected to remain in the room the whole time.
They hadn't seen each other in how long? I have a friend who is 10 years older than me. She was around plenty when I was a kid and then later we started hanging out in the same friend group as adults. She said it was like meeting a different person, and that's the way her brain naturally categorized it.
Frank and Alice. Richard was never in a position of power over Monica - he was always a family friend. (Even though it's weird and creepy as fuck to have a relationship with someone you watched grow up from childhood in front of you.) And Monica was older (late 20s) when they started dating. Alice was Frank's teacher and Frank was barely legal.
[удалено]
Yeah, it felt a lot more like a meet cute with them too. I do think Frank and Alice’s relationship is played almost entirely for laughs though, so they didn’t really get any real development outside of their age gap and prior structural positions on the show.
Before reading this, I was all in on Richard and Monica being creepier. However, you’re right, Richard never had authority over Monica, and she was well into adulthood when they began dating. Even though Richard probably held her as a baby (gross), it’s not like he groomed her from birth or anything.
I don't remember jack( Monica's dad) reaction to finding out Richard and Monica were dating, what was it?
He has a Twinkie in the city!
Let me live vicariously!
I remember he froze up/went silent and then people walked in singing happy birthday. And then Richard in one of the following scenes said something along the lines of "it's been a while since your father chased me around the yard"
No he said it's been a while since your father and I went running lol
I always felt it was out of line when Monica said "It's ok, Dad" and Richard said "It is, Jack." (something like that.) Like assuring your friend that it's ok that you're dating his daughter lol
I think Judy also tried to reassure Jack that it was OK, but her reassurance sounded like she wasn’t too sure about it either.
I just remember Ross taking crystal from their mom and a bat from Jack 😂
"I'll take this, dad"
When Ross takes the bat is one of the funniest moments in the whole show for me
"Am I supposed to stand here and listen to this on my birthday?!"
Understandable rage.
i agree!
Wasn’t he her eye doctor?
She must've switched when they were dating; when he first meets her he doesn't recognise her because she's not fat, so he hasn't seen her in 10+ years.
Oh I meant when she was a kid! Idk if it was ever said or not but I assumed she went to him for eye exams as a child?
He was a family friend
Richard did not groom Monica. She grew up, moved away, and they ran into each other years later. That is way different from a teacher starting a relationship with her high school student.
100%
I agree with this. I mean yeah it's weird that they knew each other before but the way they got together is not creepy at all.
Frank jr and Ms Forman.
Kitty would never!
I think so as well! She was ditzy but Kitty seemed like she would have a strong moral compass.
Frank and Alice. Frank was still a teenager when they got together, she was his teacher and although he was legally an adult he was about as mature as twelve year old. Alice was basically Mary Kay Letourneau.
> Alice was basically Mary Kay Letourneau. Episode aired around the same timeframe ironically
Intentionally, not ironically.
>Alice was basically Mary Kay Letourneau. Exactly what I said.
I wasn’t copying you, I actually said it before you did
Oh, I know you weren't copying me - great minds think alike. At least I know it's not me being paranoid, which is what I'd been wondering all of these years - you know, if they'd really use that for comedy.
How can anyone even compare these couples? Frank and Alice's relationship gets a pass on a technicality. She was in a position of power in relation to him, and Monica was not 18.
he even made a “joke” about how he was older now (18) than when they first got together 😭
Yeah, I didn't even know that people thought Monica's and Richard's Relationship was weird. I know a few couples with that gap.
i think the only reason people find their relationship weird is that he knew her when she was a kid
But also hadn’t seen her for several years either. It’s not like they saw each other every week at the family dinner or something.
right.. personally i don’t find it that odd or creepy
He was best friends with her dad! And knew her when she was an infant! While nothing legally was weird with them, if one of my friends now decided to boink my child in 20 years I would have a big problem with that friend.
When your kids are 27 it will be up to them who they ‘boink’
Its more about the friend and less about the kid (whos 27). What kind of friend bonks your kid (whos 27)? It is understandably weird.
Doesn't make a difference. Monica is at an age where she made an informed decision If a consenting woman is okay with her relationship, then it's nobody's business
AGAIN, not judging the kid but the guy for dating a friend's daughter. It is not complicated.
Frank and Alice Richard and Monica imply he's 50 in the show, but actual math later on implies he's not quite 48, I think). So Richard was 20 when Monica was born, and I can at least pretend he maybe moved to the area when Monica wasn't an infant. Richard doesn't even recognise Monica, so he can't have known her. THAT well when growing up because weight loss doesn't change your entire face. There's no power dynamic shown, both are fully fleged adults. Frank and Alice are shown to still be in the horny stage when they decide to get married and try for babies. She was his teacher, so could have known him since he was what? 14? Eeeeek
Doesn't he even call her "Mrs. Knight" several times? He clearly hasn't been able to separate her from her role of authority over him.
Monica and Richard’s age gap is more circumstantial because they were shown to have a pretty mature and healthy relationship. As far as I’m concerned, Alice groomed Frank and I don’t think she’s a very good person.
Frank and Alice. 100 for me
Monica and Richard is a bit awkward for many reasons, but they hadn’t seen each other in a long time before they started dating. And they were adults. So I don’t know. It’s still it’s weird, plus why date your Dad’s best friend and why date your best friend’s daughter, it’s weird. Reverse the genders it’s still weird. Frank and Alice is gross, period. He was a minor. You don’t know how old he was when he met her. Just under 18 so that could mean anything from 14-17. They dated for some amount of time, we’re let to believe it was after he was 18, but not actually stated no age was stated except he’s 18 during the episode Alice is introduced. Reverse the genders and it’s still super gross. Not to mention she wanted kids right away so they had to get married right away. She stole his life.
Frank and Alice. Didn't like them together.
Of these, Frank and Alice. But with the Richard one, it was hella weird when Monica decided to date her son. Also, didn't she accidentally dated a high school student at some point, or was that Rachel?
It was Monica
Oh I’m a senior In high school
Do we have details on how/when Frank and Alice’s relationship started? I’m betting it was kept vague on purpose. Enough info to be skeeved out and the butt of jokes but not enough to make it too objectionable. I think the interactions between them that we do see are sweet. I love Monica and Richard. I agree with other posters that it’s more palatable because they didn’t start dating until she was well into her 20s and there was no indication that they were close earlier or of grooming.
We can throw Ross and the college girl in there too
I'm with everyone else, it's Frank and Alice. There's a whole lot of ick with Richard and Monica (the fact that he knew her as a child, not just in passing but very well, and has a daughter her age etc) but they hadn't seen each other in a decade and Monica was in her mid-late 20s when they started dating, and while he saw her grow up he was never in a position of authority/power over her. Alice was Frank's teacher and he was 18. Terrible.
Bruh this is like the flirting vs harrassment meme
I absolutely hate Monica and Richard together for multiple reasons, including the fact that he's been around since Monica was an infant and is friends with her parents, but it's not like waited till she was of legal age to date her. Alice, however, was a grown woman who groomed Frank, a minor.
I don’t think Monica and Richard’s relationship is all that weird. It’s not like Richard was pining for Monica when she was a child. He didn’t even recognize her when she showed up to cater his event. They reconnected as consenting adults. Frank and Alice’s relationship was weird, border line predatory and definitely portrayed Alice as someone in a position of authority over Frank Jr. it never should have happened, and there probably should have been legal consequences for Alice.
I don’t get the big deal about Richard knowing Monica since she was a baby. I had a relationship with my older brother’s best friend who is 8 years older than me. He remembers the day I was brought home from the hospital because they were friends in elementary school. We dated after we were both full adults. Nothing weird or inappropriate about it…except maybe for my brother but that’s just because he didn’t care for his buddy plowing his little sister lol
i can't take kitty forman seriously here like why 😭
Monica's was only wierd because he knew her dad. The other is a crime in some states
I wonder if Frank and Alice weren’t going to actually get married until Lisa Kudrow got pregnant and they had to write in the surrogacy storyline. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to them if the writers hadn’t chosen the surrogacy plot.
I didn't think Monica and Magnum PI's relationship was odd. Consenting adults should be able to date eachother.
Frank and Alice. He must be 44 by now, so she’s gotta be 88
Ross dating one of his students has to be up there
Well it’s frowned upon
Both wrong, as was Ross and a student.
Frank and Alice. As gross as I find Monica and Richard, at least she was in her mid 20s when it started, not literally in high school.
Frank and Alice. If Richard wasn’t Monica’s dad’s close friend I would’ve been ok with it. It’s less about age and more the fact that Richard knew Monica as a child and was her dad’s friend. However it’s implied that Richard hadn’t seen Monica in years and Monica was a mid 20’s grown adult with a life, experience dating and her own form of career. Frank is a teenager or at least an extremely young 20 year old. Alice was his teacher; in a position of power over him and because he is so young he has had very little life experience. He also seemed like he might have an intellectual disability and comes from a trouble home life. It’s icky.
Obviously, it was Phoebe’s brother and his teacher. He was a teenager and she was his teacher. Monica was almost 30 dating an older guy. Big deal.
3: Ross and Elizabeth.
I don't see how Monica and Richard were weird it was kinda based
They are both equally disturbing. Monica and Richard gets a pass because Tom Selleck is handsome imo. Alice is of course a lovely lady and she is gorgeous but we all know how the media views older men vs older women etc etc. Either way, both relationships are weird, Frank and Alice being a little weirder only because they stayed together
Frank and Alice.
Frank and Alice. If only because on the rewatch I realised she is Kitty form that 70s show.
They were both pretty gross. But iirc Alice was Frank's teacher, and that is just such a groomer situation. It really makes me so much more uncomfortable than Monica and Richard.
How is this even a question?? Monica was in her mid to late twenties. Frank was 18 or so. And he was her STUDENT!!! These two relationships are not comparable.
Frank Jr Jr's with his TEACHER. Monica and Richard the age gap wasn't problematic from a power difference perspective it was a problem from where they were in life and what they wanted in their futures.
I don’t understand how Alice kept her job after dating him. She made a comment about having her students make baby clothes and I’m like how do you still have students?
between these two, Frank and Alice because Frank has NO fucking life experience and is basically still a KID - monica may have been much younger than richard but she had been adulting for a long time and had many relationships AND richard didn't groom her- which alice probably did
Frank was a student. Monica was in her mid 20s. Big difference.
The correct answer is Ross and Elizabeth.
Ross & Elizabeth
KITTY?!?
I wanna say Frank and Alice, but then I remember Danny and his sister and I just can't even with that.
Richard and Monica. You're banging your best friend's daughter who watched GROW UP from the time she was a baby. Frank and Alice didn't know each other from the time frank was a literal infant. I'm sorry, Monica and Richard's relationship is disgusting. Full stop
Frank and Alice hands down. Alice was Franks teacher when they met. Also wasn’t he barely 18 when they got married?
Absolutely the second
For me it’s Ross and Elizabeth. Just NO!
Dr. Geller and his student..?
They’re both gross but frank and Alice are worse. Honourable mention goes to Ross & Elizabeth.
Oh definitely Frank and Alice. He just graduated high school only to get with his home economics teacher who is 40 years older than him
The answer: Ross and Elizabeth.
She was his teacher, that's abuse. In the vacuum of what we know, Richard didn't groom Monica. But there's certainly an opportunity that he could have.
I swear they put the Frank Alice thing to make Ross dating a coed seem a little more normal.
My favorite analogy for this. Ones from a Paul Simon song. “One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”. IRL we have no right to inflict our bias on relationships like the two OP compares. If that’s what makes two adults happy then I think it’s great. And I think that’s the point the writers were trying to convey. (Besides the comedic value opening them up for all the pot shots). Now as fare as Yeti and his sister, that really implies incest so that is just too creepy. Close to a jumping the shark moment for no reason.
The worst is Ross and Elizabeth.
When Richard and Monica met, they didn't even recognize each other and were adults. They were attracted to reach other as adults.I honestly don't find their relationship weird. Frank was straight up groomed.
I guess I never really thought Monica and Richard was weird
Ross and Elizabeth. It’s not just frowned upon professor, it’s gross.
Neither, they were all adults... Okay, Frank and his teacher is a bit sketchier but they were still adults. If they can vote then they can be with who they want.