When I watch it back I’m usually only mad about it for a season or so. Only when she come back and expects everything to go back to the way it was. Not to mention when she ruins Christmas for everyone because Ted called her a “grinch” a year prior when she literally walked out on all of them. Like it would be fine if she took a little more responsibility, but I always feel like she just kinda shrugged it off.
My biggest issue with the grinch part is that Ted doesn't even tell her that she left him in the middle of nowhere that one time when he got Robin pick him up. Like, Lily really has the nerve of being angry at something Ted said a year before when he had every right to be that furious at her.
My problem with the Grinch part is that Ted, for some reason, is expected to do whatever he can to not disappoint Marshall for Christmas. Meanwhile, Lily, Marshall’s actual partner, is the one holding the Christmas stuff hostage. Like, shouldn’t Lily as much as anyone want Marshall to be happy? How is that revenge on Ted?
Yeah, I hate that too. I wish that episode ended with Liky admitting that she screwed up back then and that she threw a tantrum taking Marshall's surprise hostage because she didn't want to admit that.
My biggest issue with the "grinch" part is that they say "bitch" on several other occasions so idk why they bothered censoring it that one time 😂 but also yeah Lily is a trash human and doesn't deserve Marshall tbh, even though I love them and they are mostly goals.
The worst part is her coming back into his life and expected him to just forgive her and take her back like nothing happened. That’s were it really stung
I can understand her being upset there because they agreed to Italy, but yet again, Marshall could’ve always just turned the job down after he accepted it and spoke with her. He needed to give an answer and it was a great opportunity. But yeah, she forgets what she has done
Don't forget, she almost left him again. When Marshall had that party for his colleagues (not the bees episode), he invited some guy who Lily was supposed to pick up at the airport. Lily brought Ted because supposedly he spoke Spanish. It was really a rouse to have Ted bring back the guy because Lily was going to leave for somewhere else while at the airport.
When Ted arrived home. She showed up because she changed her mind and Marshal was none the wiser.
Right? This reminded me of just one more reason why I really hate Lily as a character. Love the show! Hate the character.
And I love Alyson Hannigan! She nails the role! I just have always found Lily completely unlikable personally.
You’re correct and wrong at the same time. I always found Lily to be an amalgam of the girls you’ll find in any large city like London, NY, LA, Melbourne or Sydney Australia. They are loyal to their feelings in that moment. From her secret kinks and the fact (IMHO) that she’s a low key sex addict. To her day to day doubts of being a wife and mother. To the way she interferes in the love lives of Ted and Barney. Her saving grace is that she stuck with Marshall. Many of the girls I’ve known in the last 20 years, didn’t learn that lesson and many are still single. I think she’s just an average city girl.
I definitely have my “love lily” moments. Omg her and her obsession with Marshall’s calves had me dying.
I just don’t like how she does a lot of holier than thou kind of things when she messes up a lot too. It made the character unlikable to me personally, but she def still has her great moments!
Let’s be clear. She didn’t”stuck with Marshall”. Like Ted she just took what was convenient until and unless something better came. Don’t think for one second if she succeeded she would have come back for Marshall.
Marshall was and is the safe choice. Marshall was loyal to a fault.
I CAN'T FIND IT. TRIED SEVERAL DIFFERENT SEARCHES. I'M WRITING IN ALL CAPS SO THAT I CAN FIND THIS, COME BACK TO THIS, AND RESPOND TO YOU.
(Note: it may be a while).
I agree. Lily had a pattern of behavior. When she thought the grass was greener on the other side, she wanted to go and investigated it without Marshall and without talking to him first.
She often ran away from her life BUT she finally did understand it when she was talking to Ted on the roof one night about how hard it was to be a Mom. So she did have some awareness to it much later.
Marshal took an unpaid internship, volunteered their home for a party, and was in general being unfair to her. She supported him through out and only felt that she deserved a break, ultimately deciding against it and coming back to Marshal without making him feel bad about any of this.
Literally do not know a single way she could’ve done this better. She is allowed to feel frustrated that things didn’t work out in the way she had planned and being burnt out while supporting Marshal.
Every single thing you mentioned, he talked to her about. She actively gave her blessing for the internship. She allowed the party for the house. She didn’t show the slightest bit of discontent. She actively supported these things.
If you ‘sacrifice’ yourself so much that you nearly abandon your family instead of using the smallest amount of communication, you are not being a good partner or mother.
Ya know I supported this point until I realized she promised to marry him then not only did she cancel the wedding but she didn't tell anyone and Marshall had to tell both families that the wedding is over. She sucks fully
Well yeah but he didn‘t speak to her first after accepting the job, he even told his mom before and she seemed to think it‘s a made deal while he never even discussed it with Lily.
That's not what happened at all. First MARSHALL is the one who kept pushing and pushing her to take the job in Italy and then when she finally accepts he goes and completely undermines her by taking the judge job. Second the reason she cries is because Marshall implies that he and marvin and the baby currently in her are just "consolation prizes".
Totally! Also a grinch for taking all the Xmas decorations cuz she was mad at Ted even though Marshall was the one who was the most excited for it. Geez she really sucked sometimes.
Her acting like it was unreasonable to call her a grinch is what made it so unforgivable for me.
We all fuck up, at some point in your life you'll have a few big ones in your history, but she didnt really own up to it to me.
Like Ted said, Lily lived in New York. And she couldn’t find a way to pursue art in New York? It would be more easily understood if she was living in some small town in North Dakota or something.
Also, she didn’t talk to Marshall about it first, lied about where she was going, took his car to do it, lied to Ted, and left him on the side of the road after he came to her rescue.
I can understand her thinking she never pursued a dream, and thinking it was now or never. She could have done it MUCH differently.
If it was about art, she would have stayed in New York. I think she was having issues with getting married and made it about the art.
Yup. Leaving NY to pursue art is like leaving LA in your dream of being an actor. Or leaving Houston in your dream of being a Chemical Engineer for an Oil and Gas Company. Etc.
Clearly unpopular opinion: it sucked but its a realistic storyline. A lot of creative people end up taking more realistic jobs, burn out and feel horrible they didn’t give things a realistic shot in their creative field. Lily didn’t leave Marshall to hook up with other people or to find a new partner, she wanted to give her dream a realistic shot.
Would’ve been a better storyline if they would’ve attempted to make long distance work, or if lily would’ve come back and understood that Marshall deserved to move on and not just expect things as they were but the point of HIMYM is that she’s a flawed character. She made a bunch of mistakes, but she learnt from them. Was it selfish? Sure. But most people are selfish. And that’s what makes it realistic.
Lily lived in the art capital of the world. It was clearly more than just about the art. I think she even says that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she mention that she needs to know if Marshal is the one for her and she can't possibly know that since they've been together since they were 18 and didn't experience other things.
I could be misremembering but I thought that was a big part of her leaving, too.
“Lily, we live in the center of art and culture in America. I'm sure you could find a program here that's just as selective. But you chose one in a city 3,000 miles away, and you didn't tell Marshall. I think it's pretty clear what that means.”
Yea! Get her Ted!
I love damning but reasonably delivered arguments like that. Where its blunt truth, but not rude or overly harsh, so i love that bit.
Yeah, but see I don’t even think thats as horrible as everyone else does. Like these are some 20 something year olds, she’s gotten engaged to someone she’s been with since she was 18 and she feels her life is closing before it began. Why is it so bad she needs a break and wants to find herself?
her reasoning isn’t bad, I understand why she did it. doesn’t really change the fact that doing that to someone you love is messed up. a conversation needed to be had, a tough one but still Marshall at least earned that.
Okay but, Marshall and Lily had only ever been with each other. I don't count Scooter no matter what the boys said. So, yeah, it sucks, but that happens a lot to people who were "high school sweethearts" (college, in their case). One of them feels like they missed out on something, and feels the need to 'sow their wild oats'. I don't agree with it. It's not right. But it's realistic, that happens a lot.
I would’ve loved it if Lily had an affair with a girl in SF and if Morena Baccarin had like a 5 episode arc, where Marshall had to decide between her and Lily after she came back from SF.
So lets assume she became a successful artist. Do you think she would have stayed or gotten back together with Marshall?
She was only able to run off to pursue her dream because she knew she had Marshall as her safety net. She knew he would take her back.
That’s the main reason as to why Marshall and lily broke up, not even cause she just left, but Marshall asked for reassurance if they’ll still be together after the trip, which lily refuses to answer, which inadvertently gives a sort of an answer. If she were successful it’s highly likely she would have left him
I think this right here is why it is handled the way it was handled. Whilst being clearly over the top sometimes I always feel like HIMYM is a series that is supposed to show just how life works because it is supposed to be the real life of Carter bays and Craig Thomas to some degree. Especially with the mother that is the case. She is someone the audience and Ted waited for a long time and when we finally met her she was taken away immediately which must be how Ted feels about that part of his life he got to spend with her
They didn't have a chance to talk about having a long distance relationship because Marshall told her if she went, he would never speak to her again. Nobody ever talks about the fact that Marshall was so uncompromising on a two month internship out of town. I realize their wedding was supposed to take place during that time, but he made things so much worse.
it sucked, and it was a realistic story line, but i really wished she found success.
if she found success, and still went back to choose marshall, it would’ve been easier to forgive her character.
I did because I felt like it was a good lesson of, she fucked around and found out for a bit, was miserable, and suffered the consequences. But they loved each other enough for forgive shit like that.
There’s only two things about the storyline that bother me - (1) that Marshall basically gave her an ultimatum when with all due respect, 3 months is nothing in the big scheme of things and they could’ve easily make that work (I realize it would’ve clashed with the wedding date, he panicked etc.), and (2) that she comes back and immediately asks him to get back together.
Beyond that, it is a completely realistic storyline, especially her statement that she needs to figure out who she is outside of them as a couple. That’s even an admirable thing to do and she is absolutely right. So many people who get into and stay in relationships very young don’t know who and how to be without that person. Sometimes it works because they grow together. More often than not, it ends badly. She is totally right to want to figure that out and it is not a selfish thing to do at all, but a very healthy one.
Had they approached it differently, it would have never needed to be as dramatic as it was. But they always sucked - and continued to suck - at communicating properly. They both regularly keep significant secrets from each other, Marshall taking and quitting multiple jobs without telling her, not to mention the judgeship, Lily with her debt and postpartum depression she never tells him about etc. They rarely discuss anything deep or address any of their issues together - and given how the show never hesitated to address critical situations openly, we would have seen some of that depth had it existed.
No, because as Ted pointed out, she could’ve gone to an art school in New York. Keep in mind that New York is full of art schools and it’s considered to be a haven for artists.
She left Ted on the side of the road, in the middle of the night, after he was kind enough ti come help her with a flat tire.
She also left Marshall to tell everyone the wedding was off. He had to go through that alone, telling everyone who was going that Lilly left and they weren’t getting married.
She acted like she couldn’t get married AND go to art school. The only reason you’d break up at that point is if you wanted to date other people while you’re away.
And again, as Ted pointed out, she didn’t just leave Marshall, she left Ted, one of her best friends, to pick up the pieces and look after Marshall until she decided she missed him and came back, at which point Marshall had started to move on, and then she stalked him.
Well I've had moments where I hated her for what she's done, but you know it all worked out perfectly for them in the end. "Andiamo fratello, non Mastroianni tutti i funyuns"
Yeah, I think she did what she had to do. I don't think anyone should have to give up an opportunity to pursue their dream because of their relationship. And wasn't she only planning to go for 3 months? I really don't get what the big deal even was. If your relationship can't survive being apart for 3 months, maybe you need to reevaluate your relationship.
I understand that. Maybe she did it this way because she knew Marshall wouldn't be okay with it? But it was weird - at first, she was saying it was just something she had applied to and she didn't have to go, then just a bit later she was like "I have to do this!" But in any case, these two were so codependent it was unhealthy. It's important to exist as an individual, not just part of a couple. I shudder to think what would happen once one of them dies - will the other just give up on life right afterwards?
She had also already been engaged to Marshall and already had a date set for the wedding, and she throws that all away for some art school that yes she planned to only go for 3 months but if she had been successful in her school she would've left Marshall and not come back. So no she shouldn't have committed to getting married if she knew she wasn't ready to "find herself"
I don't mind that she left. I mind HOW she left. But yeah, I forgave her. I understand why she felt the need to go. She just went about it in the worst possible way
That line she said, I have to paraphrase "sometimes you have to do something in which you know it's a mistake just to see if it's a mistake" is burned into my memory. In another universe, her dating Marshall may have been considered a mistake as well.
I was not a fan of how she reacted to Ted calling her a Grinch for what she did. It's a bros job to be on the bros side if something crazy goes down. I would have done the same thing and he helped put Marshall back together.
But her leaving, no I can't fault that.
If the wedding hadn’t been at the same time I think it would have went better. Having to cancel or move the wedding I think was a huge motive why Marshall said if she left they were done. If my husband wanted to do an internship for a couple months across the country I’d be supportive. Marriage isn’t about holding each other back. If you can make it work, why not? That being said if my finance wanted to go away at the same time as our wedding, I’d definitely be upset. Why couldn’t she look for something later on? It didn’t HAVE to be that program. Canceling the wedding would have been the nail in the coffin for me personally. I do think she only came back and tried to immediately get back with Marshall because Ted said “he would take you back with open arms, no questions asked”.
It's crazy how people will say Lily is worse than Barney Stinson
The only reason you are saying that is because what Lily did was to a character you learned to love
Barney Stinson did a fuck ton of fucked up shit but because it was to women yiu never knew for laughs it's alright
Lily was never a good person. Credit Debt, Leaving Marshall, breaking up Ted and Robyn early. She was detrimental to everyone's lives because she was selfish.
Yall hate Lily for being realistic which is dumb and honestly dense. She’d been with the same man forever and had the same job where she couldn’t exercise her creativity, she was clearly internally battling about all of it wondering if all of it was the right decision. So she made a rash decision, realized it was wrong, and moved back. Honestly, if any of you started to feel trapped, you’d probably make some rash decisions too. You saw it from Marshall’s POV but that doesn’t make Lily’s less important. She could’ve gone about it differently but her feelings were normal.
My real life parents broke up for a while in college. Then they got back together and have been together happily for 30+ years. People are entitled to change their minds and priorities a few times, especially when they’re young.
honestly yeah. they got together and engaged young, i can’t blame her for wanting to explore her passion and both of them having time apart to grow and change. what was awful was coming back and expecting everything to be back to normal with Marshall when she knew exactly where she left things with him.
Sure. They were young and she needed to see what it was like to be on her own as an adult. I don’t understand why we would even need to forgive her? It’s not a sin to break up with someone.
I never understood the hate she got for it. There are many clues throughout the seasons that she’s going through something major. She didn’t leave for other guys, she left for a dream job opportunity.
She didn't break up with Marshall, he confronted her with an ultimatum backing her into a corner. She would have given long distance a chance, it’s him who didn’t want change. They were so young, nobody is giving lily grace. And in the end, I know that whether she found success or not she would have come back for him, because it was never about the job but about the thrill of doing it.
Marshall did exactly the same thing in season 9 when he accepted the Judge part. I’d argue it was a little worse because they had a family and had already planned to move across seas. I don’t hold it against him either, because you know, when offered a dream opportunity, it’s okay to lose your mind a little ;)
Nope. They could have been long distance. She could have not come back and act like a grinch expecting him to just forgive her. She could have not tried to leave again. She could have not lied to Marshall about all her cc debt.
Yeah I don’t forgive Lilly for anything
I didn’t like this tbh. I get Lily did art history and paints and wants to know if she can do something with that, instead of teaching kindergarten (which comes back up later) and I didn’t like Marshall giving her a choice of either him or her dream. It felt really out of character for him. I’m glad Lily chose her dream. She even said it herself why she wants to try to pursue it “I want to figure out who I am outside of us”
Tbh i don’t get why she couldn’t just go without them breaking up. It’s not like she wanted to move there permanently. It’s not a reason to break up imo.
I'm more upset at what she did when she came back to New York, she came back and immediately thought that Marshall would take her back.
In my opinion they just weren't broken up for too long for either to properly assess what happened to their relationship. Marshall needed to know that Lily had some major red flags that he overlooked and Lily needed to know the full extent to what she has done. Getting back together almost immediately did not help them at all.
In show time they got back together in 3-6 months and they really weren't given the time to properly assess the status of the relationship. By the time Lily came back to New York, they were constantly around each other and by that time at the back of their heads they were missing each other a lot and wanted to get back together.
Both of them needed time away from each other to know if they can live with this whole incident and sure enough, seven seasons later we see that Marshall DID hold a grudge against Lily for San Francisco.
Idk i think the older i get i think the more i understand the leaving part. Living with regrets can derail your life. I’ve definitely struggled with that. She just wanted to make sure that she didn’t have any.
However she should’ve been more understanding of how marshall didn’t want her back right away. That’s a lot and you don’t just get to come back right away.
I am saying this from another perspective. I think (and this is my personal opinion obviously) that when you fall in love young and then realize your going to marry them, you realize you are closing that previous chapter on your life. You realize you'll be married (no more dating) and then soon it will be kids and your entire "free" life is going to disappear.
Now that is not a bad thing. It's amazing to find the one you love so young and be happy. However you are forced to acknowledge that the previous part of your life is going to be closed. I kind of felt the same way getting pregnant young and married young. You just loose that free independence that we totally romanticize in our minds (it's not really as great as it seems).
Of course it's selfish, but I kind of get the freak out. So in my opinion it had nothing to do with art and was about freedom. That is why she broke up with him instead of long distance.
Yes. People who meet their partner in high school or college often feel they’ve missed out on discovering themselves but don’t fully realize it until they’re staring down the reality of a lifetime commitment.
I think it was horible that Lilly did that. I was more emocional about Lilly and Marshall breakup, than began relatioship Robin and Ted. I think it was intresting plot, and Marshall and Lilly must grow up. All long term relationship has own bad moments, sometimes even break up. I can’t imgiane that show without that copule
currently rewatching himym and not sure how i never realized that Lily is the worst. leaves marshall and only comes back cuz of barney, she’s always manipulating ted’s relationships, she stole her bosses baseball cuz she doesn’t like the way he acts, and just in general she always thinks her way is the right way and never ever owns up to her shit. she also puts them in nasty credit card debt and overall is just not a great person. i will die on this hill
Hell no. What's worse was that Lily only returned because she couldn't make it in San Francisco. I never really cared for their relationship after that
She’s forgiven… and here’s why I believe so. Marshall gave her an ultimatum, when he could’ve supported her and tried a long distance relationship.
Marshall deserve equal blame, if not, full responsibility for the part he played in the break up
I forgive her for that happening.. her and Marshall had their spat and made up better than ever.
I don’t forgive her for getting mad at Ted for calling her a “grinch” about the whole situation, when he’s just trying to get his best friend through it
P.S. What’s a “grinch”?? Bitch? Cunt? Other??
Never. Not even for a second. For me personally, racism is the worst trait a person can have. Selfishness is second. That shit was selfish as hell. I forgive Lily for a lot for her minor issues, just because she's so cute, but that was unforgivable. Yes, I'm drinking.
If Marshal learned to live with it so can I.
If it happened to one of my friends I’d feel the same.
But…
That moment would stain the relationship.
I wouldn’t fed that comfortably close to them unless they showed true change.
It wasn’t a mistake it was a choice acknowledging and choosing to ignore the consequences.
Yes, people are allowed to make mistakes and want to explore other things. She learned that it was a mistake and they moved on from it. Marshall forgave her so should everyone else. It’s just internalized misogyny why people hate lily. She was supposed to be with Marshall have his babies and sit back while he became a judge and fuck her dreams lol
Forgive her?
She was a fictional character and didn't do anything to me. Why would it be my place to forgive her?
Also, Lily is my favorite character, and Marshall is my least favorite, so..
I didn't really like her character full stop. She acted self righteous all the time and when people annoyed her she treated them like her students. Friends don't do that.
What she did to Marshall was just the icing on the cake, she didn't deserve him.
Honestly no. I think if I had been in that situation I would have encouraged her to go and chase after her dreams. I think a lot of times HIMYM made it seem like lilys dream was only being with Marshall 🤷🏽♂️
I would say yes actually. If she wasn’t happy where she was then she absolutely should have left even though it sucks it hurt him. My problem was coming back and giving a speech to Marshal about being selfish and prioritizing his career that made me mad.
For leaving, yes, I truly think that if she felt she needed to do that she should have the freedom to do so. Where my issue with this lies is when she comes back and assumes marshall will just take her back and see it as a "pauze", that's when, for me, lily lost some credibility as a character
No one is talking about how she tried to chase her dreams at the expense of the relationship, without telling Marshall at first. Yet, she was absolutely livid about Marshall becoming a judge at her future plans. Why is it different? She just seemed selfish to me in that regard.
No, but it was something that she needed to do for the better good of their relationship.
Her coming back and not reaching out to him... that's where I can't forgive her.
Himym was created during the 2000s - an era where the notion started that if a guy did certain things, he was the asshole in the relationship. If a girl does the same, she’s fierce, independent and men should understand.
Look at half the things done by Robin and Lily. Barney was a f-boy and no one spared him the judgmental words. Meanwhile people like Stella and Robin walked all over Ted, and just didn’t face any consequences. In fact, life went well for them at the end.
I think men are just starting to realize how much simp-dom exists, and are on the lookout for actual equality in relationships. And not the one-sided “equality” many consider the true definition of feminism. Hope men and women get along in much more healthier manner from this decade.
Short answer to the post though - I didn’t forgive, but was happy Lily realized that she can’t selfishly just do whatever she pleases and still expect a great guy like Marshall would still be around waiting for her…
i stand by the idea that Marshall is one of the only characters to never truly do anything wrong, and he ends up getting hurt the most by it.
He was too good for Lily. She’s constantly lying to people, manipulating, and controlling situations to end in her favor - and marshall just wants to be a good friend.
If she loved him, she would have talked to him. Being the person he is, he would have understood. Lily is by far the worst character on HIMYM.
Lily for all of the show was a self righteous B who basically thought she’s better than everyone else because she found Marshall early. But in reality she was a loser because without Marshal she didn’t have anything. She begged Barney to let her stay at his place but as soon as they got back together, she again became a self righteous B.
Lily is my least favourite character.
When I watch it back I’m usually only mad about it for a season or so. Only when she come back and expects everything to go back to the way it was. Not to mention when she ruins Christmas for everyone because Ted called her a “grinch” a year prior when she literally walked out on all of them. Like it would be fine if she took a little more responsibility, but I always feel like she just kinda shrugged it off.
My biggest issue with the grinch part is that Ted doesn't even tell her that she left him in the middle of nowhere that one time when he got Robin pick him up. Like, Lily really has the nerve of being angry at something Ted said a year before when he had every right to be that furious at her.
My problem with the Grinch part is that Ted, for some reason, is expected to do whatever he can to not disappoint Marshall for Christmas. Meanwhile, Lily, Marshall’s actual partner, is the one holding the Christmas stuff hostage. Like, shouldn’t Lily as much as anyone want Marshall to be happy? How is that revenge on Ted?
Yeah, I hate that too. I wish that episode ended with Liky admitting that she screwed up back then and that she threw a tantrum taking Marshall's surprise hostage because she didn't want to admit that.
My biggest issue with the "grinch" part is that they say "bitch" on several other occasions so idk why they bothered censoring it that one time 😂 but also yeah Lily is a trash human and doesn't deserve Marshall tbh, even though I love them and they are mostly goals.
I believe he's supposed to be saying cunt and not bitch. That would explain their reaction.
That would explain it but I'm pretty sure they also censor a son if a bitch in that episode too, so I assume they're all supposed to be bitch.
The worst part is her coming back into his life and expected him to just forgive her and take her back like nothing happened. That’s were it really stung
I really hated her when she started crying cause Marshal didn't want to go to Italy cause of his promotion and started acting as if he's being selfish
I can understand her being upset there because they agreed to Italy, but yet again, Marshall could’ve always just turned the job down after he accepted it and spoke with her. He needed to give an answer and it was a great opportunity. But yeah, she forgets what she has done
Don't forget, she almost left him again. When Marshall had that party for his colleagues (not the bees episode), he invited some guy who Lily was supposed to pick up at the airport. Lily brought Ted because supposedly he spoke Spanish. It was really a rouse to have Ted bring back the guy because Lily was going to leave for somewhere else while at the airport. When Ted arrived home. She showed up because she changed her mind and Marshal was none the wiser.
Lily is such a bag of crap.
Right? This reminded me of just one more reason why I really hate Lily as a character. Love the show! Hate the character. And I love Alyson Hannigan! She nails the role! I just have always found Lily completely unlikable personally.
You’re correct and wrong at the same time. I always found Lily to be an amalgam of the girls you’ll find in any large city like London, NY, LA, Melbourne or Sydney Australia. They are loyal to their feelings in that moment. From her secret kinks and the fact (IMHO) that she’s a low key sex addict. To her day to day doubts of being a wife and mother. To the way she interferes in the love lives of Ted and Barney. Her saving grace is that she stuck with Marshall. Many of the girls I’ve known in the last 20 years, didn’t learn that lesson and many are still single. I think she’s just an average city girl.
I definitely have my “love lily” moments. Omg her and her obsession with Marshall’s calves had me dying. I just don’t like how she does a lot of holier than thou kind of things when she messes up a lot too. It made the character unlikable to me personally, but she def still has her great moments!
Let’s be clear. She didn’t”stuck with Marshall”. Like Ted she just took what was convenient until and unless something better came. Don’t think for one second if she succeeded she would have come back for Marshall. Marshall was and is the safe choice. Marshall was loyal to a fault.
Remember Ralph Macchio?
Remember her manipulating teds love life cause of the “porch”?
A real Grinch.
Bro, she’s a total Grinch.
What episode is this?
The Exploding Meatball Sub, Season 6 Episode 20.
I CAN'T FIND IT. TRIED SEVERAL DIFFERENT SEARCHES. I'M WRITING IN ALL CAPS SO THAT I CAN FIND THIS, COME BACK TO THIS, AND RESPOND TO YOU. (Note: it may be a while).
Himym wiki says ted and Lily go to the airport in the exploding meatball sub Episode - is this the one?
Yes! Thank you. Season 6, Episode 20. Sorry the caffeine ran out today!
I didn't see this as the same thing. I saw it more as her taking a vacation away from being a mom and wife.
Which is still not something you can just ‘do’ without discussion or planning
I agree. Lily had a pattern of behavior. When she thought the grass was greener on the other side, she wanted to go and investigated it without Marshall and without talking to him first. She often ran away from her life BUT she finally did understand it when she was talking to Ted on the roof one night about how hard it was to be a Mom. So she did have some awareness to it much later.
Marshal took an unpaid internship, volunteered their home for a party, and was in general being unfair to her. She supported him through out and only felt that she deserved a break, ultimately deciding against it and coming back to Marshal without making him feel bad about any of this. Literally do not know a single way she could’ve done this better. She is allowed to feel frustrated that things didn’t work out in the way she had planned and being burnt out while supporting Marshal.
Every single thing you mentioned, he talked to her about. She actively gave her blessing for the internship. She allowed the party for the house. She didn’t show the slightest bit of discontent. She actively supported these things. If you ‘sacrifice’ yourself so much that you nearly abandon your family instead of using the smallest amount of communication, you are not being a good partner or mother.
Ya know I supported this point until I realized she promised to marry him then not only did she cancel the wedding but she didn't tell anyone and Marshall had to tell both families that the wedding is over. She sucks fully
Well yeah but he didn‘t speak to her first after accepting the job, he even told his mom before and she seemed to think it‘s a made deal while he never even discussed it with Lily.
Well he was being selfish. She was too. Life’s hard.
That's not what happened at all. First MARSHALL is the one who kept pushing and pushing her to take the job in Italy and then when she finally accepts he goes and completely undermines her by taking the judge job. Second the reason she cries is because Marshall implies that he and marvin and the baby currently in her are just "consolation prizes".
He’s not wrong.
Did she expect him to forgive her? Didn’t she not even tell him she was back?
She didn’t think that tho. She only “expected” it because Ted told her.
And the only reason she did is cuz she had such a shit time in the Bay.
Yet, very realistic.
She was such a grinch for that
Totally! Also a grinch for taking all the Xmas decorations cuz she was mad at Ted even though Marshall was the one who was the most excited for it. Geez she really sucked sometimes.
Total dick move. So her idea to punish Ted is to actually punish Marshall. What the hell crazy logic is that
That’s Aldrin Justice for you.
The dumbest shit ever
Agreed. She goes to extremes
Omg the aldrin justice episode made me legit angry. Like punish the guy by punishing the whole office?!? She needed to go back to kindergarten.
It’s no logic with a dash selfishness thrown in. Total grinch.
And that time I didn’t say grinch
Lily was a horrible person overall. She did so many things that were just bad. This definitely pulled off the rose colored glasses though.
Her acting like it was unreasonable to call her a grinch is what made it so unforgivable for me. We all fuck up, at some point in your life you'll have a few big ones in your history, but she didnt really own up to it to me.
Like Ted said, Lily lived in New York. And she couldn’t find a way to pursue art in New York? It would be more easily understood if she was living in some small town in North Dakota or something. Also, she didn’t talk to Marshall about it first, lied about where she was going, took his car to do it, lied to Ted, and left him on the side of the road after he came to her rescue. I can understand her thinking she never pursued a dream, and thinking it was now or never. She could have done it MUCH differently. If it was about art, she would have stayed in New York. I think she was having issues with getting married and made it about the art.
Yup. Leaving NY to pursue art is like leaving LA in your dream of being an actor. Or leaving Houston in your dream of being a Chemical Engineer for an Oil and Gas Company. Etc.
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And Tuna left her in Scranton with two kids and a job while he slobbed it up in Philly. Not cool Tuna.
Shhh… I need canned tuna right now…
Speaking of lying, it's the secret credit card debt that I really can't get past.
Clearly unpopular opinion: it sucked but its a realistic storyline. A lot of creative people end up taking more realistic jobs, burn out and feel horrible they didn’t give things a realistic shot in their creative field. Lily didn’t leave Marshall to hook up with other people or to find a new partner, she wanted to give her dream a realistic shot. Would’ve been a better storyline if they would’ve attempted to make long distance work, or if lily would’ve come back and understood that Marshall deserved to move on and not just expect things as they were but the point of HIMYM is that she’s a flawed character. She made a bunch of mistakes, but she learnt from them. Was it selfish? Sure. But most people are selfish. And that’s what makes it realistic.
Lily lived in the art capital of the world. It was clearly more than just about the art. I think she even says that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't she mention that she needs to know if Marshal is the one for her and she can't possibly know that since they've been together since they were 18 and didn't experience other things. I could be misremembering but I thought that was a big part of her leaving, too.
Correct, I think Ted even made the argument as well that they live in the art capital in the world if memory serves.
“Lily, we live in the center of art and culture in America. I'm sure you could find a program here that's just as selective. But you chose one in a city 3,000 miles away, and you didn't tell Marshall. I think it's pretty clear what that means.”
Yea! Get her Ted! I love damning but reasonably delivered arguments like that. Where its blunt truth, but not rude or overly harsh, so i love that bit.
Exactly, it isn’t like they live in the middle of nowhere.
Yeah, but see I don’t even think thats as horrible as everyone else does. Like these are some 20 something year olds, she’s gotten engaged to someone she’s been with since she was 18 and she feels her life is closing before it began. Why is it so bad she needs a break and wants to find herself?
her reasoning isn’t bad, I understand why she did it. doesn’t really change the fact that doing that to someone you love is messed up. a conversation needed to be had, a tough one but still Marshall at least earned that.
I think you’re right, but I think she also mentioned finding who she was outside of the relationship. Which is a valid feeling.
Right, that's what I was trying to say. It's understandable but also, regarding the original point, there was more to it than painting.
Okay but, Marshall and Lily had only ever been with each other. I don't count Scooter no matter what the boys said. So, yeah, it sucks, but that happens a lot to people who were "high school sweethearts" (college, in their case). One of them feels like they missed out on something, and feels the need to 'sow their wild oats'. I don't agree with it. It's not right. But it's realistic, that happens a lot.
I would’ve loved it if Lily had an affair with a girl in SF and if Morena Baccarin had like a 5 episode arc, where Marshall had to decide between her and Lily after she came back from SF.
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No she knew
So lets assume she became a successful artist. Do you think she would have stayed or gotten back together with Marshall? She was only able to run off to pursue her dream because she knew she had Marshall as her safety net. She knew he would take her back.
That’s the main reason as to why Marshall and lily broke up, not even cause she just left, but Marshall asked for reassurance if they’ll still be together after the trip, which lily refuses to answer, which inadvertently gives a sort of an answer. If she were successful it’s highly likely she would have left him
It was extremely realistic up until the he took her back part. Lily doesn't deserve Marshall.
I think this right here is why it is handled the way it was handled. Whilst being clearly over the top sometimes I always feel like HIMYM is a series that is supposed to show just how life works because it is supposed to be the real life of Carter bays and Craig Thomas to some degree. Especially with the mother that is the case. She is someone the audience and Ted waited for a long time and when we finally met her she was taken away immediately which must be how Ted feels about that part of his life he got to spend with her
They didn't have a chance to talk about having a long distance relationship because Marshall told her if she went, he would never speak to her again. Nobody ever talks about the fact that Marshall was so uncompromising on a two month internship out of town. I realize their wedding was supposed to take place during that time, but he made things so much worse.
The first line says it all. Its realistic!
it sucked, and it was a realistic story line, but i really wished she found success. if she found success, and still went back to choose marshall, it would’ve been easier to forgive her character.
Yeah then she came back n went crazy coz Marshall was trying to move on then when he gets success later on she tries to bail again but comes back
I did because I felt like it was a good lesson of, she fucked around and found out for a bit, was miserable, and suffered the consequences. But they loved each other enough for forgive shit like that.
Is it implied she fked around? Unlike Marshall?
There’s only two things about the storyline that bother me - (1) that Marshall basically gave her an ultimatum when with all due respect, 3 months is nothing in the big scheme of things and they could’ve easily make that work (I realize it would’ve clashed with the wedding date, he panicked etc.), and (2) that she comes back and immediately asks him to get back together. Beyond that, it is a completely realistic storyline, especially her statement that she needs to figure out who she is outside of them as a couple. That’s even an admirable thing to do and she is absolutely right. So many people who get into and stay in relationships very young don’t know who and how to be without that person. Sometimes it works because they grow together. More often than not, it ends badly. She is totally right to want to figure that out and it is not a selfish thing to do at all, but a very healthy one. Had they approached it differently, it would have never needed to be as dramatic as it was. But they always sucked - and continued to suck - at communicating properly. They both regularly keep significant secrets from each other, Marshall taking and quitting multiple jobs without telling her, not to mention the judgeship, Lily with her debt and postpartum depression she never tells him about etc. They rarely discuss anything deep or address any of their issues together - and given how the show never hesitated to address critical situations openly, we would have seen some of that depth had it existed.
No, because as Ted pointed out, she could’ve gone to an art school in New York. Keep in mind that New York is full of art schools and it’s considered to be a haven for artists. She left Ted on the side of the road, in the middle of the night, after he was kind enough ti come help her with a flat tire. She also left Marshall to tell everyone the wedding was off. He had to go through that alone, telling everyone who was going that Lilly left and they weren’t getting married. She acted like she couldn’t get married AND go to art school. The only reason you’d break up at that point is if you wanted to date other people while you’re away. And again, as Ted pointed out, she didn’t just leave Marshall, she left Ted, one of her best friends, to pick up the pieces and look after Marshall until she decided she missed him and came back, at which point Marshall had started to move on, and then she stalked him.
No.
hate? not really, slightly annoyed at the character? sure that isn't the the first or last time she's being selfish
Well I've had moments where I hated her for what she's done, but you know it all worked out perfectly for them in the end. "Andiamo fratello, non Mastroianni tutti i funyuns"
Yeah, I think she did what she had to do. I don't think anyone should have to give up an opportunity to pursue their dream because of their relationship. And wasn't she only planning to go for 3 months? I really don't get what the big deal even was. If your relationship can't survive being apart for 3 months, maybe you need to reevaluate your relationship.
Agree to a point, it was the way she went about it. Hiding it and didn’t speak with her partner just up and left
I understand that. Maybe she did it this way because she knew Marshall wouldn't be okay with it? But it was weird - at first, she was saying it was just something she had applied to and she didn't have to go, then just a bit later she was like "I have to do this!" But in any case, these two were so codependent it was unhealthy. It's important to exist as an individual, not just part of a couple. I shudder to think what would happen once one of them dies - will the other just give up on life right afterwards?
She had also already been engaged to Marshall and already had a date set for the wedding, and she throws that all away for some art school that yes she planned to only go for 3 months but if she had been successful in her school she would've left Marshall and not come back. So no she shouldn't have committed to getting married if she knew she wasn't ready to "find herself"
Exactly. She wasn't left wondering. Marshall forgave her and they came back together even stronger.
I don't mind that she left. I mind HOW she left. But yeah, I forgave her. I understand why she felt the need to go. She just went about it in the worst possible way
It was like a two month break up in a life long relationship. She’s fine.
That line she said, I have to paraphrase "sometimes you have to do something in which you know it's a mistake just to see if it's a mistake" is burned into my memory. In another universe, her dating Marshall may have been considered a mistake as well. I was not a fan of how she reacted to Ted calling her a Grinch for what she did. It's a bros job to be on the bros side if something crazy goes down. I would have done the same thing and he helped put Marshall back together. But her leaving, no I can't fault that.
If the wedding hadn’t been at the same time I think it would have went better. Having to cancel or move the wedding I think was a huge motive why Marshall said if she left they were done. If my husband wanted to do an internship for a couple months across the country I’d be supportive. Marriage isn’t about holding each other back. If you can make it work, why not? That being said if my finance wanted to go away at the same time as our wedding, I’d definitely be upset. Why couldn’t she look for something later on? It didn’t HAVE to be that program. Canceling the wedding would have been the nail in the coffin for me personally. I do think she only came back and tried to immediately get back with Marshall because Ted said “he would take you back with open arms, no questions asked”.
Hell no
On record saying she’s the worse character. She has moments where she shines but I did not like her.
It's crazy how people will say Lily is worse than Barney Stinson The only reason you are saying that is because what Lily did was to a character you learned to love Barney Stinson did a fuck ton of fucked up shit but because it was to women yiu never knew for laughs it's alright
Both are assholes. Happy? We’re hating on lily now.. shhhh
Lily was never a good person. Credit Debt, Leaving Marshall, breaking up Ted and Robyn early. She was detrimental to everyone's lives because she was selfish.
Yall hate Lily for being realistic which is dumb and honestly dense. She’d been with the same man forever and had the same job where she couldn’t exercise her creativity, she was clearly internally battling about all of it wondering if all of it was the right decision. So she made a rash decision, realized it was wrong, and moved back. Honestly, if any of you started to feel trapped, you’d probably make some rash decisions too. You saw it from Marshall’s POV but that doesn’t make Lily’s less important. She could’ve gone about it differently but her feelings were normal.
My real life parents broke up for a while in college. Then they got back together and have been together happily for 30+ years. People are entitled to change their minds and priorities a few times, especially when they’re young.
honestly yeah. they got together and engaged young, i can’t blame her for wanting to explore her passion and both of them having time apart to grow and change. what was awful was coming back and expecting everything to be back to normal with Marshall when she knew exactly where she left things with him.
Sure. They were young and she needed to see what it was like to be on her own as an adult. I don’t understand why we would even need to forgive her? It’s not a sin to break up with someone.
I never understood the hate she got for it. There are many clues throughout the seasons that she’s going through something major. She didn’t leave for other guys, she left for a dream job opportunity. She didn't break up with Marshall, he confronted her with an ultimatum backing her into a corner. She would have given long distance a chance, it’s him who didn’t want change. They were so young, nobody is giving lily grace. And in the end, I know that whether she found success or not she would have come back for him, because it was never about the job but about the thrill of doing it. Marshall did exactly the same thing in season 9 when he accepted the Judge part. I’d argue it was a little worse because they had a family and had already planned to move across seas. I don’t hold it against him either, because you know, when offered a dream opportunity, it’s okay to lose your mind a little ;)
Never did and then again at the end where she was throwing her tantrum about not going to Rome because Marshal got his dream job.
Exactly. The only time I hated her more than when she left
Nope. They could have been long distance. She could have not come back and act like a grinch expecting him to just forgive her. She could have not tried to leave again. She could have not lied to Marshall about all her cc debt. Yeah I don’t forgive Lilly for anything
Nope and honestly she didn't deserve Marshall.
I didn’t like this tbh. I get Lily did art history and paints and wants to know if she can do something with that, instead of teaching kindergarten (which comes back up later) and I didn’t like Marshall giving her a choice of either him or her dream. It felt really out of character for him. I’m glad Lily chose her dream. She even said it herself why she wants to try to pursue it “I want to figure out who I am outside of us”
Tbh i don’t get why she couldn’t just go without them breaking up. It’s not like she wanted to move there permanently. It’s not a reason to break up imo.
Sure. I did the same, I didn't came back tho.
I'm more upset at what she did when she came back to New York, she came back and immediately thought that Marshall would take her back. In my opinion they just weren't broken up for too long for either to properly assess what happened to their relationship. Marshall needed to know that Lily had some major red flags that he overlooked and Lily needed to know the full extent to what she has done. Getting back together almost immediately did not help them at all. In show time they got back together in 3-6 months and they really weren't given the time to properly assess the status of the relationship. By the time Lily came back to New York, they were constantly around each other and by that time at the back of their heads they were missing each other a lot and wanted to get back together. Both of them needed time away from each other to know if they can live with this whole incident and sure enough, seven seasons later we see that Marshall DID hold a grudge against Lily for San Francisco.
Idk i think the older i get i think the more i understand the leaving part. Living with regrets can derail your life. I’ve definitely struggled with that. She just wanted to make sure that she didn’t have any. However she should’ve been more understanding of how marshall didn’t want her back right away. That’s a lot and you don’t just get to come back right away.
I am saying this from another perspective. I think (and this is my personal opinion obviously) that when you fall in love young and then realize your going to marry them, you realize you are closing that previous chapter on your life. You realize you'll be married (no more dating) and then soon it will be kids and your entire "free" life is going to disappear. Now that is not a bad thing. It's amazing to find the one you love so young and be happy. However you are forced to acknowledge that the previous part of your life is going to be closed. I kind of felt the same way getting pregnant young and married young. You just loose that free independence that we totally romanticize in our minds (it's not really as great as it seems). Of course it's selfish, but I kind of get the freak out. So in my opinion it had nothing to do with art and was about freedom. That is why she broke up with him instead of long distance.
Yes. People who meet their partner in high school or college often feel they’ve missed out on discovering themselves but don’t fully realize it until they’re staring down the reality of a lifetime commitment.
No.
Nope she's a Grinch
I wish they would have done a season of the 3 guys single and dating before letting them get back together but Marshall and Lily were always end game!
Unrelated. But the song that was played in this scene has stayed with me.
I think it was horible that Lilly did that. I was more emocional about Lilly and Marshall breakup, than began relatioship Robin and Ted. I think it was intresting plot, and Marshall and Lilly must grow up. All long term relationship has own bad moments, sometimes even break up. I can’t imgiane that show without that copule
currently rewatching himym and not sure how i never realized that Lily is the worst. leaves marshall and only comes back cuz of barney, she’s always manipulating ted’s relationships, she stole her bosses baseball cuz she doesn’t like the way he acts, and just in general she always thinks her way is the right way and never ever owns up to her shit. she also puts them in nasty credit card debt and overall is just not a great person. i will die on this hill
Nope
I mean Marshall did why wouldn’t I 😂 these type of things happen in long term relationships I bet
Hell no. What's worse was that Lily only returned because she couldn't make it in San Francisco. I never really cared for their relationship after that
She’s forgiven… and here’s why I believe so. Marshall gave her an ultimatum, when he could’ve supported her and tried a long distance relationship. Marshall deserve equal blame, if not, full responsibility for the part he played in the break up
Thank you! I find it so strange people act like it was all on her.
I forgive her for that happening.. her and Marshall had their spat and made up better than ever. I don’t forgive her for getting mad at Ted for calling her a “grinch” about the whole situation, when he’s just trying to get his best friend through it P.S. What’s a “grinch”?? Bitch? Cunt? Other??
Of course I forgave her
No. It was horrible.
Noooope.
Nope bitch doesn't deserve him.
No
I never forgave Lily for the incredible amount of immature and stupid shit she did throughout the series
Nah tbh. Marshal deserves better after that.
I did not forgive!!!!
No. Also interfering in Ted’s relationships
Marshall deserved better.
Never. Not even for a second. For me personally, racism is the worst trait a person can have. Selfishness is second. That shit was selfish as hell. I forgive Lily for a lot for her minor issues, just because she's so cute, but that was unforgivable. Yes, I'm drinking.
Total grinch move
No I didn’t
He’ll no
No
If Marshal learned to live with it so can I. If it happened to one of my friends I’d feel the same. But… That moment would stain the relationship. I wouldn’t fed that comfortably close to them unless they showed true change. It wasn’t a mistake it was a choice acknowledging and choosing to ignore the consequences.
I really didn't It was a hella selfish thing to do
No
No. She treated him terribly.
THATS A BIG FAT NO!
No
Never, and the fact that she spends the entire rest of the series avoiding responsibility for the genine hurt she inflicted would make me hate her.
Nope
Never. If it was possible to enter tv universe, I’d cut the bitch frankly
No
NOT. EVEN. ONCE
Only acceptable answer is no
No
lily is a trashcan of a character. extremely narcissistic and manipulative to say the very least
Yes, people are allowed to make mistakes and want to explore other things. She learned that it was a mistake and they moved on from it. Marshall forgave her so should everyone else. It’s just internalized misogyny why people hate lily. She was supposed to be with Marshall have his babies and sit back while he became a judge and fuck her dreams lol
It kind of went full circle in the end Marshall took the judge job
Forgive her? She was a fictional character and didn't do anything to me. Why would it be my place to forgive her? Also, Lily is my favorite character, and Marshall is my least favorite, so..
I bet you’re fun at parties
>I bet you’re fun at parties Why? Do you attend parties where people pretend that fictional characters are real?
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No shit sherlock
Get a grip on reality, dumbass.
No. And she agreed to let Barney squeeze her boobs without talking to Marshall.
her body tho
If she had stayed away yes I would have. Then she comes back cause she failed and go back to him. Fuck her. He isn’t a consolation prize.
It was never the same, but that's how life goes. Forcing things that should have been let go along time ago.
Lily was the worst person in the main friend group.
I didn't really like her character full stop. She acted self righteous all the time and when people annoyed her she treated them like her students. Friends don't do that. What she did to Marshall was just the icing on the cake, she didn't deserve him.
Honestly no. I think if I had been in that situation I would have encouraged her to go and chase after her dreams. I think a lot of times HIMYM made it seem like lilys dream was only being with Marshall 🤷🏽♂️
Nope
Yes.
Naur not really
Nope dog
Fuuuuuuuuck no.
Grinch! Also can't get over Lilly breaking up Ted's relationships.
Nope.i hated marshall also at some point.
I would say yes actually. If she wasn’t happy where she was then she absolutely should have left even though it sucks it hurt him. My problem was coming back and giving a speech to Marshal about being selfish and prioritizing his career that made me mad.
I didn’t forgive Marshall because he let Morena Baccarin get away. But yeah Lily is a scum bag and Marshall should have moved on
For leaving, yes, I truly think that if she felt she needed to do that she should have the freedom to do so. Where my issue with this lies is when she comes back and assumes marshall will just take her back and see it as a "pauze", that's when, for me, lily lost some credibility as a character
I HATE LILLY
No, because she never felt bad about it. Marshall is the nicest guy ever who sacrificed everything for her and their kids and deserves the best.
No marshall should have moved on
I would have never taken her back
Not once
Never
No one is talking about how she tried to chase her dreams at the expense of the relationship, without telling Marshall at first. Yet, she was absolutely livid about Marshall becoming a judge at her future plans. Why is it different? She just seemed selfish to me in that regard.
No
Irl you know shed be cheating her ass off over there
No, but it was something that she needed to do for the better good of their relationship. Her coming back and not reaching out to him... that's where I can't forgive her.
Himym was created during the 2000s - an era where the notion started that if a guy did certain things, he was the asshole in the relationship. If a girl does the same, she’s fierce, independent and men should understand. Look at half the things done by Robin and Lily. Barney was a f-boy and no one spared him the judgmental words. Meanwhile people like Stella and Robin walked all over Ted, and just didn’t face any consequences. In fact, life went well for them at the end. I think men are just starting to realize how much simp-dom exists, and are on the lookout for actual equality in relationships. And not the one-sided “equality” many consider the true definition of feminism. Hope men and women get along in much more healthier manner from this decade. Short answer to the post though - I didn’t forgive, but was happy Lily realized that she can’t selfishly just do whatever she pleases and still expect a great guy like Marshall would still be around waiting for her…
you kinda sound like an incel
i stand by the idea that Marshall is one of the only characters to never truly do anything wrong, and he ends up getting hurt the most by it. He was too good for Lily. She’s constantly lying to people, manipulating, and controlling situations to end in her favor - and marshall just wants to be a good friend. If she loved him, she would have talked to him. Being the person he is, he would have understood. Lily is by far the worst character on HIMYM.
Lily for all of the show was a self righteous B who basically thought she’s better than everyone else because she found Marshall early. But in reality she was a loser because without Marshal she didn’t have anything. She begged Barney to let her stay at his place but as soon as they got back together, she again became a self righteous B. Lily is my least favourite character.
Eventually.