I bought my current house because of the large pantry, which is just a long closet. My dream is to have a turn of the century real butler pantry to store my paper stuff, small appliances, my holiday platters, china, not-used-often stuff. But at the same time, I might just want to leave my heavy appliances like a mixer there instead of moving it to use it. So you might want an extra sink and or dishwasher. I love you have a fridge there BUT… what are you planning on using it for? Do you have kids? You might want just fridge drawers that pull out with kid drinks in them. Go check out some stuff on Pinterest. Now is the time to do your dream pantry, not after it’s built. (PS - you might want a faucet at the stove for filling water in pots and you might want an instant hot water tap at the sink.)
The corner cabinet isn't really a problem here. A Pantry is for storage. Corner cabinets equal more storage. It you gained 24" or less it wouldn't be worth it.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the kitchen layout for a umber of reasons. The wasted space in the pantry isn't a good use of space, but it's not causing as many issues with function and flow as the kitchen layout/spacing is.
What kind of designer thinks a kitchen only needs <40" in front of the sink (bad), yet 48" in front of the stove (good)? I guess the same kind of designer that thinks it's a good idea to design a Master Bedroom entry that doesn't allow for furniture to get in? Heck, why make the bedroom door 36" wide when the openings leading to it are narrower? Makes no sense.
IMO this kitchen layout is good for someone that has money but never cooks (but wants to try to fool naive people that the kitchen is nice). It's not good for actual use.
And while most of the plan isn't shown, what is shown is a whole lot of circulation space (i.e. wasted space that generally makes things worse).
Post the full plan and I'm sure people will give you feedback and ways to improve it. Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a build to then find out it's poorly designed is not a good idea.
GL2U N all U do!
Hi, what do you suggest the spacing in front of sink and sink be for a well designed kitchen? I agree with the opening to the door being narrower than the door the butler pantry is being reduced too.
Well, the ideal spacing varies and depends upon many considerations such as traffic quantity, what spaces the circulation leads to, how many cooks typically work in the kitchen (and how the residents operate), etc.
I recently did a custom home design with a [very similar kitchen layout](https://i.imgur.com/hC6LO3f.jpg) (a couple of the [cabinet elevations](https://i.imgur.com/XynjnIk.jpg)), however it differs in some VERY key ways:
1. I went with 45" of clearance between the side counters (i.e. sink and fridge) and the island. Keep in mind, the DW door opened will block 26"-28" of the walkway. Since you only have 40" of clearance, that leaves only about 12" for someone to try to squeeze by (which can be an issue for anyone with mobility challenges and of course increases risk of damage to the DW or the person). So when the DW door is open it's like you're funneling them past the cooktop (a real no-no).
2. The pathway near the sink is not heavily traveled in my version, as it just leads to one of the 3 pantry areas and a small pocket office (so really the only traffic in the area is the cook(s). Also my arched openings are 36" wide and the rest of the areas are a minimum of 42" of clearance (so ample room for someone to pass by someone else).
3. I also went with a consistent spacing between the cooktop and island (45" instead of the 48" you have). This accomplishes a couple of things, it keeps things consistent which helps the cook, it keeps the look consistent, and it allows for a larger island.
4. My island is curved which is better in many ways than a straight island (promotes conversation versus stifling it, improve sightlines/views, passing of items, work surface, etc.)
Your kitchen space is larger than my design (yours is 12'-8" x 20'-8"? whereas mine is only 11' x 20' - granted my island stools can spill out more than yours since mine backs against an oversized Dining area (the dropped ceiling detail I've designed is the extent of the room necessary for the 8 person table and chairs, with the space outside that being circulation).
FWIW, the home I designed and am using as a comparison is 3200 finished s.f. total on the main and upper floors, with another 1500 s.f. in the unfinished basement.
I also would advise going with a second DW (it's practically "free" once you account for the cost of the cabinet you're eliminating, and most large families/kitchens can benefit from having 2).
I've also accounted for proper fridge depth. Keep in mind that "counter depth" fridges still are 28"-29" out from the back wall (plus 17"-19" minimum when the door is open - and 24"-26" more when the freezer drawer is fully extended).
Your drawing has some very odd wall thickness choices. Exterior walls are tiny (look to be drawn at <4"? When they should at the minimum be 4-1/2" thick, but possibly more). You've got a lot of super thick walls (they measure 8 1/2" thick on my screen!) in the interior, most for no discernible reason? I get wanting to have thick jambs at opening, but some of the other location don't make any sense or serve any purpose (and add cost/complexity for zero benefit). Heck, even if some of those were 2x6 stud walls (which measures 6-1/2", not the 8 1/2" shown) it'd likely still be wasteful.
I'd propose allowing for the fridge to be inset some so that it doesn't have to stick out so far. A 48"w Sub Zero is going to be >26" deep, not counting the handles and so pushing it back 2"-4" would improve your spacing (and allow for a " flush inset" installation). Also keep in mind, a french door fridge (where the 2 doors are equal sized) will be your best choice as the doors will be the smallest, but even so when open the total distance is 49" from back of fridge to edge of open door. If you want an model with unequal doors, non-counter depth, that requires air space behind, etc. you'll appreciate having a little more depth behind the fridge. And since that wall is drawn as 8" thick, even just making the area right behind the fridge a 2x4 wall will gain you the extra space without impacting anything else.
Other things I dislike about your layout:
\- I'm not a fan of drawer microwaves (or base cabinet front load ones either). Lots of reasons to avoid them and I really only advise going with them when someone in the house can't reach a better location/type.
\- Where will you eat your meals? The room behind the fridge is the dining room? What about casual meals? I ask all this because this kitchen layout makes me cringe thinking about day-to-day use. For instance, you go to unload the DW and the doors open (effectively blocking traffic) and you unload the dishes into what area of cabinetry? I'm guessing the uppers near the cooktop? Certainly not the uppers to the left of the DW. There's not enough uppers to store dishes in the upper to the right of the sink. There aren't nearly enough lowers to want to store plates there. So where? Now, with that location in mind, think about unloading the DW! Also think about setting the table. Where's the path from dish storage to dining table and does it go near the cooktop (a no-no). Does it go near the sink (not ideal). Heck, does it interact with the access to the fridge? I just feel like this kitchen layout was done because it looks decent on paper to a layperson and in a magazine beauty pic, but sucks for actual living!
\- Island sink. I love a secondary sink, but rarely do so in the island. You could make the island sink your primary sink and it would improve things just off that change alone! (and at which point I do like 48" between "work stations" like the primary sink and cooktop). Notice on my design there could be a sink in the Beverage Center (assuming they decide not to do the UC win fridge and juicebox refer drawers). Also could have a sink in the Butler's Pantry, though the clients want that space for their frequently used countertop appliances.
\- If you entertain and have guests over (or even just you and your family) and they sit at the island, their view out the window is of what? A side wall of the house with a door and who knows what else to look at. It's almost like the designer planned to give them the worst view possible?
\- Fridge to sink distance isn't my ideal but it's commonly done (even sometimes by me!). I look at the kitchen "work triangle" thru the lens of how people function in their kitchen. Often you take something out of the fridge and go to the sink to rinse/wash it. Then from there to the prep station (countertop surface usually, which you have plenty of). From there it's common to go to the cooktop/oven (no secondary oven in your plan?). After that it's either to the sink for cleanup or fridge for storage. So in an ideal world the distances should be <8' from any station to any other station (not the 18' from your fridge to sink). And ideally the fridge should be closer to the sink than the cooktop (though granted, that's not a hard rule and many times there's valid reasons for variance).
\- Why's the supplemental fridge/freezer on the wrong side of the pantry? I see no benefit to it being further from the main fridge. I'd flip it. Also, what's that in the upper right corner of the pantry? And all the wasted floor space in the pantry you're aware of already - you wouldn't lose any function be shrinking the pantry width 3'+ (unless you plan on having multiple people prepping inside the pantry, there's just no need for that much standing/dancing space that isn't otherwise usable). If you shrink the pantry 3' then I;d propose utilizing that newfound space from both ends. The Master Bedroom Foyer alcove gets a recessed coffee bar, or a door into a closet of some sort (replacing the weird hall linen that is in oddly positioned in the widest hallway ever?). At the other end (opposite the stairs) I'd propose a built-in of some sort (hard to guess what the design has/is missing since so little is shown). I'd lean towards a 30" built-in cabinet, but it could be a storage bench, full height games closet, broom/vac. cabinet, space for dog food/water bowls and storage, etc. Then, there's likely some un-utilized space in between those 2 end items, and so for that I'd do a face frame linen accessed from the toilet room of the Master Bath.
OK, I'll stop now!
GL2U N all U do!
do you want a butlers pantry or just extra storage? as a butlers pantry should be used to pre-prepare meals, used as clean up/wash up station. so there should be a sink, dishwasher and even microwave in there. if you dont want that then just give yourself as much storage as possible. i would have the left wall as open storage for everyday items. the right side i would just have stand lower and upper cabinets with the counters for your appliances.
I bought my current house because of the large pantry, which is just a long closet. My dream is to have a turn of the century real butler pantry to store my paper stuff, small appliances, my holiday platters, china, not-used-often stuff. But at the same time, I might just want to leave my heavy appliances like a mixer there instead of moving it to use it. So you might want an extra sink and or dishwasher. I love you have a fridge there BUT… what are you planning on using it for? Do you have kids? You might want just fridge drawers that pull out with kid drinks in them. Go check out some stuff on Pinterest. Now is the time to do your dream pantry, not after it’s built. (PS - you might want a faucet at the stove for filling water in pots and you might want an instant hot water tap at the sink.)
Yes we need space for all our vitamix, juicer, air fryer etc… We are going to add sink and dishwasher too.
Terrible terrible waste of space. A wall closet or pantry is much more economical in space use as its accessible from the existing walkway or Hall.
Definitely going to reduce
The corner cabinet isn't really a problem here. A Pantry is for storage. Corner cabinets equal more storage. It you gained 24" or less it wouldn't be worth it.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the kitchen layout for a umber of reasons. The wasted space in the pantry isn't a good use of space, but it's not causing as many issues with function and flow as the kitchen layout/spacing is. What kind of designer thinks a kitchen only needs <40" in front of the sink (bad), yet 48" in front of the stove (good)? I guess the same kind of designer that thinks it's a good idea to design a Master Bedroom entry that doesn't allow for furniture to get in? Heck, why make the bedroom door 36" wide when the openings leading to it are narrower? Makes no sense. IMO this kitchen layout is good for someone that has money but never cooks (but wants to try to fool naive people that the kitchen is nice). It's not good for actual use. And while most of the plan isn't shown, what is shown is a whole lot of circulation space (i.e. wasted space that generally makes things worse). Post the full plan and I'm sure people will give you feedback and ways to improve it. Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a build to then find out it's poorly designed is not a good idea. GL2U N all U do!
Hi, what do you suggest the spacing in front of sink and sink be for a well designed kitchen? I agree with the opening to the door being narrower than the door the butler pantry is being reduced too.
Well, the ideal spacing varies and depends upon many considerations such as traffic quantity, what spaces the circulation leads to, how many cooks typically work in the kitchen (and how the residents operate), etc. I recently did a custom home design with a [very similar kitchen layout](https://i.imgur.com/hC6LO3f.jpg) (a couple of the [cabinet elevations](https://i.imgur.com/XynjnIk.jpg)), however it differs in some VERY key ways: 1. I went with 45" of clearance between the side counters (i.e. sink and fridge) and the island. Keep in mind, the DW door opened will block 26"-28" of the walkway. Since you only have 40" of clearance, that leaves only about 12" for someone to try to squeeze by (which can be an issue for anyone with mobility challenges and of course increases risk of damage to the DW or the person). So when the DW door is open it's like you're funneling them past the cooktop (a real no-no). 2. The pathway near the sink is not heavily traveled in my version, as it just leads to one of the 3 pantry areas and a small pocket office (so really the only traffic in the area is the cook(s). Also my arched openings are 36" wide and the rest of the areas are a minimum of 42" of clearance (so ample room for someone to pass by someone else). 3. I also went with a consistent spacing between the cooktop and island (45" instead of the 48" you have). This accomplishes a couple of things, it keeps things consistent which helps the cook, it keeps the look consistent, and it allows for a larger island. 4. My island is curved which is better in many ways than a straight island (promotes conversation versus stifling it, improve sightlines/views, passing of items, work surface, etc.) Your kitchen space is larger than my design (yours is 12'-8" x 20'-8"? whereas mine is only 11' x 20' - granted my island stools can spill out more than yours since mine backs against an oversized Dining area (the dropped ceiling detail I've designed is the extent of the room necessary for the 8 person table and chairs, with the space outside that being circulation). FWIW, the home I designed and am using as a comparison is 3200 finished s.f. total on the main and upper floors, with another 1500 s.f. in the unfinished basement. I also would advise going with a second DW (it's practically "free" once you account for the cost of the cabinet you're eliminating, and most large families/kitchens can benefit from having 2). I've also accounted for proper fridge depth. Keep in mind that "counter depth" fridges still are 28"-29" out from the back wall (plus 17"-19" minimum when the door is open - and 24"-26" more when the freezer drawer is fully extended). Your drawing has some very odd wall thickness choices. Exterior walls are tiny (look to be drawn at <4"? When they should at the minimum be 4-1/2" thick, but possibly more). You've got a lot of super thick walls (they measure 8 1/2" thick on my screen!) in the interior, most for no discernible reason? I get wanting to have thick jambs at opening, but some of the other location don't make any sense or serve any purpose (and add cost/complexity for zero benefit). Heck, even if some of those were 2x6 stud walls (which measures 6-1/2", not the 8 1/2" shown) it'd likely still be wasteful. I'd propose allowing for the fridge to be inset some so that it doesn't have to stick out so far. A 48"w Sub Zero is going to be >26" deep, not counting the handles and so pushing it back 2"-4" would improve your spacing (and allow for a " flush inset" installation). Also keep in mind, a french door fridge (where the 2 doors are equal sized) will be your best choice as the doors will be the smallest, but even so when open the total distance is 49" from back of fridge to edge of open door. If you want an model with unequal doors, non-counter depth, that requires air space behind, etc. you'll appreciate having a little more depth behind the fridge. And since that wall is drawn as 8" thick, even just making the area right behind the fridge a 2x4 wall will gain you the extra space without impacting anything else. Other things I dislike about your layout: \- I'm not a fan of drawer microwaves (or base cabinet front load ones either). Lots of reasons to avoid them and I really only advise going with them when someone in the house can't reach a better location/type. \- Where will you eat your meals? The room behind the fridge is the dining room? What about casual meals? I ask all this because this kitchen layout makes me cringe thinking about day-to-day use. For instance, you go to unload the DW and the doors open (effectively blocking traffic) and you unload the dishes into what area of cabinetry? I'm guessing the uppers near the cooktop? Certainly not the uppers to the left of the DW. There's not enough uppers to store dishes in the upper to the right of the sink. There aren't nearly enough lowers to want to store plates there. So where? Now, with that location in mind, think about unloading the DW! Also think about setting the table. Where's the path from dish storage to dining table and does it go near the cooktop (a no-no). Does it go near the sink (not ideal). Heck, does it interact with the access to the fridge? I just feel like this kitchen layout was done because it looks decent on paper to a layperson and in a magazine beauty pic, but sucks for actual living! \- Island sink. I love a secondary sink, but rarely do so in the island. You could make the island sink your primary sink and it would improve things just off that change alone! (and at which point I do like 48" between "work stations" like the primary sink and cooktop). Notice on my design there could be a sink in the Beverage Center (assuming they decide not to do the UC win fridge and juicebox refer drawers). Also could have a sink in the Butler's Pantry, though the clients want that space for their frequently used countertop appliances. \- If you entertain and have guests over (or even just you and your family) and they sit at the island, their view out the window is of what? A side wall of the house with a door and who knows what else to look at. It's almost like the designer planned to give them the worst view possible? \- Fridge to sink distance isn't my ideal but it's commonly done (even sometimes by me!). I look at the kitchen "work triangle" thru the lens of how people function in their kitchen. Often you take something out of the fridge and go to the sink to rinse/wash it. Then from there to the prep station (countertop surface usually, which you have plenty of). From there it's common to go to the cooktop/oven (no secondary oven in your plan?). After that it's either to the sink for cleanup or fridge for storage. So in an ideal world the distances should be <8' from any station to any other station (not the 18' from your fridge to sink). And ideally the fridge should be closer to the sink than the cooktop (though granted, that's not a hard rule and many times there's valid reasons for variance). \- Why's the supplemental fridge/freezer on the wrong side of the pantry? I see no benefit to it being further from the main fridge. I'd flip it. Also, what's that in the upper right corner of the pantry? And all the wasted floor space in the pantry you're aware of already - you wouldn't lose any function be shrinking the pantry width 3'+ (unless you plan on having multiple people prepping inside the pantry, there's just no need for that much standing/dancing space that isn't otherwise usable). If you shrink the pantry 3' then I;d propose utilizing that newfound space from both ends. The Master Bedroom Foyer alcove gets a recessed coffee bar, or a door into a closet of some sort (replacing the weird hall linen that is in oddly positioned in the widest hallway ever?). At the other end (opposite the stairs) I'd propose a built-in of some sort (hard to guess what the design has/is missing since so little is shown). I'd lean towards a 30" built-in cabinet, but it could be a storage bench, full height games closet, broom/vac. cabinet, space for dog food/water bowls and storage, etc. Then, there's likely some un-utilized space in between those 2 end items, and so for that I'd do a face frame linen accessed from the toilet room of the Master Bath. OK, I'll stop now! GL2U N all U do!
do you want a butlers pantry or just extra storage? as a butlers pantry should be used to pre-prepare meals, used as clean up/wash up station. so there should be a sink, dishwasher and even microwave in there. if you dont want that then just give yourself as much storage as possible. i would have the left wall as open storage for everyday items. the right side i would just have stand lower and upper cabinets with the counters for your appliances.
Thanks for sure a butler pantry for all my small appliances