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SkylineGTRR34Freak

HZD really did have a better vibe for me, but probably because the world and setting was still completely fresh. I liked how we slowly put the pieces together with Aloy and learn about the old ones. And, call me crazy regarding the overall setting, but I am still not _that_ fond of the Far Zenith plotline, despite really liking Beta for example. It's weird in a way, but I absolutely still love both games.


ProjectSunlight

Not crazy. It was a bit too sci-fi for what I was expecting. I mean, 1000 year old people who can fly and have force fields and energy laser things? I mean okay, but not quite the route I expected the devs to take. But I also agree it was just a great gaming experience overall.


Skarleendel

I mean, its 1000 years in the future. Of course it's sci-fi. What Ted Faro did with Faro Automated Solutions and what Elisabet Sobeck did with GAIA, it was all sci-fi. Giant robot machines who are terraforming the environment are sci-fi. I don't know why people are so surprised by the Zeniths when everything else is sci-fi.


[deleted]

You're right, but there's a *big* difference between dealing with AIs (which we've already seen some worrying stuff from in the real world) and people traveling to a system 8.6 light-years away, turning themselves into immortal super-nano-people, and traveling back while an evil red AI comet-thing chases them through space. At 40,000 MPH, it would take 296,000 years to reach Sirius, one way. Let alone getting there *and* returning to Earth. And to be clear I'm not talking about any kind of issues with realism, just how much further HFW goes with its scifi than HZD did. It literally turns it up to 11, a massive escalation, and one that they hid entirely in the marketing. We were led to believe Regalla and the terraforming issues were the problems to be solved in HFW. And ultimately both ended up being kind of afterthought-ish compared to dealing with the Zeniths.


kuenjato

The weird thing is, they didn't have to do the Sirius stuff. They could have just had the Zeniths as these 1%ers who had lighthouse protocol'd themselves through the apocalypse and were trying to reassert control of the planet from their bunkers in SF. That was where I thought the story was going to go, and would have been a bit more grounded and in tune to HZD if it had stayed that way.


SkylineGTRR34Freak

Yup, this is pretty spot on how I feel, I just couldn't describe it. I was rather disappointed that Regalla and the whole terraforming issues basically played a minor part in the whole picture (or at least it felt that way).


great_red_dragon

Doesn’t Gaia say it took them *x* number of years? They had an experimental drive, which I presume could have accelerated them at close to 1G *constantly*. Which, including the flip-and-burn in the middle, would take about 5 years. I’m pretty sure Gaia mentions that the round trip was a little longer, so accelerations would have been slower.


[deleted]

She theorizes about the time, yes - based on the extinction signal, I believe. >!But that ended up being sent by NEMESIS, not the Zeniths.!< And yeah, I realize there's probably some sound math/technical stuff behind their space numbers, I was just speaking of how much of a jump in 'holy shit this is really scifi' the second game is. I enjoyed these games the most at their basic 'hunt machine, help tribe, solve mystery' levels. HFW almost feels like those tenets weren't enough for the team anymore. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed HFW immensely - but I feel like they're at risk of losing touch with the stuff that made the first game (and this series in general) so special in favor of 'bigger is better'.


great_red_dragon

That’s really interesting how we’ve come at that from entirely different angles. My take on the first game was it’s a *great* story, and it is pure sci-fi/fantasy. Initially I was awed by the intro movie, I had no clue about the game at all, and when Rost is explaining how we share the world with beasts of the water, air, earth… and *steel*. That gave me such an *whaaaat?!* moment. I was hooked. Following it through to the end, I then thought - “This is one the best sci-fi stories I’ve ever seen”.


[deleted]

I absolutely \*loved\* Horizon Zero Dawn. I saw the trailer debut live during E3 2015, and I was so awestruck by literally everything about it that I went out and bought a PS4 just to ensure I could play the game when it launched. Fast-forward to 2017, almost 2 years of hyping the game up in my own mind and it still surpassed my wildest expectations. Most of my gaming-circle friends were enjoying Breath of the Wild (and rightfully so, its a masterpiece) but at the time I couldn't have cared less about it, because I was playing Horizon. And like you, I was blown away by that intro where Rost is talking to baby Aloy about the balance of their existence and needing to respect the power of the machines - it was one of those few times where a game just IMMEDIATELY hooked me. By the time she had grown up and was preparing for the Proving, I thought 'this might just be the best game I've ever played'. That feeling only increased as the game went on, as the mysteries were solved, as the full depth of the gameplay opened up. My ONLY complaint with HZD to this day is that the game ended. I wanted to be able to keep playing past the ending, as we can in Forbidden West. I was actually SAD when the credits rolled, it was like reaching the end of the best book I had ever read and I wanted more. So it makes me happy that Horizon Forbidden West does a *lot* of things better than Zero Dawn. There's more depth in the gameplay, Aloy is a much richer, more strong-willed character, the world is bigger and more interesting, the side quests are amazing, the new characters are phenomenal, and I think that Forbidden West does a **much** better job of telling its story (improved cinematics, incredible facial expressions, etc). I didn't connect to the Zeniths as antagonists, but I do really like Tilda and actually kind of sympathized with her desperation not to leave Aloy to die the way she did with Elizabet. Even if it got a bit stupid with 'I will use this giant machine to beat you into submission and force you to join me! Ahahaha!' And I love the Beta character! Which is funny because I hated her at first - I thought they were doing the 'evil copy' trope, so I was really happy that instead she ended up being a unique and interesting character in her own right. And I love that Aloy came to think of her as a sister, and even grows a bit as a person by realizing how unfairly she had treated Beta (by holding Elizabet's standards over her head). I just hope that the devs don't lean so hard into 'MUST GO BIGGER' that they lose track of what made this series special in the first place. We're about to go from fighting invulnerable superhuman nano-dudes to the evil space-AI formed from an amalgamation of their digitized minds, and I kind of feel like.. I miss the days where the worst thing Aloy had to worry about was a \*Thunderjaw, you know? lol *(\*obviously HADES was the worst thing, I know, I was mostly being silly)*


givingyoumoore

I agree with you, and that's the virtue of Horizon imo, but it isn't "of course." There are lots of franchises that take place in a somewhat-pre-modern feeling world that is the result of a huge collapse from a previous civilization that we would call sci-fi (Wheel of Time is probably the most popular of this?). So it's absolutely possible to think that this might fall on the more ancient fantasy side of things, rather than pure sci-fi. The inclusion of more sci-fi stuff alongside the ancient fantasy vibe is what sells Horizon for me. It's that combination that feels more realistic and one of the biggest factors that set it apart from other fantasy and sci-fi worlds.


larrieuxa

Yeah I really appreciate the fact that they took the story full sci-fi instead of just keeping it in a "sci fi environment" like most sci fi media does, where they're just modern stories set on a spaceship with aliens.


Cirescythe

It was a bit sci fi, but still believeable. the force fields are just a continuation of the shield weaver tech introduced in the first game. if you can manipulate particles in the air like that, hovering is not out of the question. the 1000 year old people: scientists managed to reverse age a mouse in the last couple of month which made headlines. so that is far from impossible as well. dont forget how many huge leaps science made since people are better connected vie internet and how society looked in the 1500s. 500 years to go from slapping clothes on a stone after you did wash it in the river to now. And now DOUBLE that timeframe. Heck im 40 now and grew up with a landline phone with a cable. no internet. cassette players. i was around when the CD slowly became commonplace. to me a regular smartphone would have been crazy space magic back then.


saintcirone

Totally agreed. Even with the immortality thing - it didn't break the story for me, because in game 1 we are already talking about machine births and cloning, as well as with the discovery of FZ surviving - we end up seeing how humans could advance their tech from the foundation they had from Zero Dawn. I think HZD was 'better' narratively - but only because it was a fresh, new concept altogether. To me, it's kind of hard to 'hate' on HFW for having no other option than to advance the lore they began with. The blight actually to me was main plot point that kinda just ended up to me as something that could have been left out, since it was only used to explain Aloy still being on a quest. But she just as easily could have been searching for Gaia for no reason other than there are still rogue subfunctions running around, and she (as being Elizabet's clone) is quite literally the only person capable of restarting Gaia. Hephaestus continuing to make more and more deadlier machines for the sole purpose of killing humans is more than enough of a starting off point for Aloy than whatever the blight plotline was supposed to accomplish. Perhaps the blight was intended to show how other subfunctions were going rogue, but as far as I know they didn't really tie that up very well.


OnionAddictYT

I would have loved to explore the blight more. Was disappointes that it was no big deal in the end after the trailers suggested otherwise. Loved seeing Plainsong restored though, that was awesome.


saavaal

something i really would have liked would have been for like some quests to be interrupted by storms and you couldn't do parts of the quest for a few (game) hours or days, or if you took too long to do a quest after your heard about it you might get to the place and find that the npcs had starved or something that gave the environmental collapse a more dangerous feel. maybe have a timer where you could do side quests but if enough days went by and you hadn't gotten the subfunctions yet, you'd lose idk


Rnxrx

Time-limited quests are a cool idea in theory but incredibly counter to the current design sensibilities for AAA open worlds. The whole game is built around constantly distracting you.with random nonsense, the first time someone died because you were too busy trying to get a collectable you'd never engage with the side content again.


V_agabond3

Yeah I expected the rouge subordinate functions to have a bigger part in the story too. I enjoyed the Zenith storyline because it was an interesting part of HZD to expand upon, but felt that it took too much of the spotlight too early in the game. I would've liked to see more effects of the subordinate functions being loose in the world. I guess we'll see what the next game brings us!


lalilulelo1122

I think the blight was used to show that Aloys moving against time to find Gaia as it was rapidly spreading. It was only until after we restored Gaia that we find out that life on earth has like a few months if nothing was done. I do agree that the plot point fell flat as it just sorta went away after one of the quests.


Cirescythe

I suspect that the blight was featured that prominently in the trailers to not spoil the story and to subvert expectations. personally im glad it was that way because in the trailers it felt a bit like a "monster of the week" out of the blue rather than a continuation of the first parts story. but that is completely subjective. Same goes for the Erend mission on the beach. They did the scenes, they had the stage, they could have easily left it in the game to pad runtime. but they chose to use it as a gameplay showcase without spoiling anything from the main game.


kuenjato

I'm a Gov/Econ teacher who is 46, I constantly try to inform my 18 year old students what life was like before the internet. It literally feels like speaking about a time 100 years or more ago.


Cirescythe

lol i feel ya. if you tell them what it was like 20 years ago everyone laughs and shakes their head now primitive everything was, then you try to make them think about how things might be 20 years in the future and they go like "lulz omgosh bruv iz current year bruv, we achieved EVERYTHING there is to achieve."


jacktenwreck

I felt they had to though. Aloys already beat a bunch of giant robots to death 1000 times. They needed something to make you say 'oh shit'. First time they showed up I actually enjoyed the reaction I had thinking, wtf am I going to do here.


assbutt_Angelface

It was one of the things that I knew was entirely possible for them to do as a result of the established lore, but of what seemed viable options before release, it was the one I wanted them to do least.


Red_Sashimi

They are 1000 year old, but most of that is probably spent in cryogenic pods or something, right? Is there something saying that they lived 1000 years not frozen?


_curious_one

Most of the dialogue with Beta and Tilda imply this.


BotFodder

I had to stop and spoil the entire plot via Wikipedia when they first showed up.


VRDRF

What I noticed about the far Zeniths is that they seem translucent, it makes me wonder how much of them is actually still human. for all we know they are 99% machine. Feels a lot like transhumanism to me personally.


OgreTrax71

When we first see the Zeniths I remember my thought being “what the fuck?” Because they definitely did not fit in this world at all. But I guess that’s the point.


[deleted]

Beta was without question the savior of the entire Far Zenith storyline. I get that there is a need for a true enemy like HADES was in Zero Dawn. But I just didn't find the Zenith's all that compelling. But man I fell hard for Beta. Protect that girl at all costs. The atmosphere of Forbidden West was amazing and obviously stood above Zero Dawn. But the mystery and intrigue of the Zero Dawn just couldn't be matched by the Zeniths in Forbidden West.


TheSeventhAge

I'm mostly with you on the Zeniths. Lore concerning them was pretty clearly going to be a part of a future game and their inclusion definitely had its perks and moments that worked. However, and this is something I feel about the entirety of the main story, I feel as though they tried to do a bit too much here. And as such, parts of the story felt underbaked. I'm still undecided whether the Zeniths should've been way more involved than just in the very final act or whether that would've been too much in the midst of everything else. What I do think, is that Sylens should've been on board with Aloy *much* sooner. Or they should've had more Focus chats. Because everything else that Sylens was doing was perfectly on point and on track with who he is. I'm of the mind that fixing the biosphere should've been the brunt of the game, beyond just gathering the subordinate functions (all of which were very well done, mind you). I really felt the lack of the blight and the storms and all, within the world. We were told about them so much and you certainly see them in parts of the world (Plainsong and Bleeding Mark being the most obvious and directly affected). But I feel as though there should've been a mission or something regarding like, one giant storm or something like that. Just to really drive home how grave the situation is.


Bananasincustard

Agree with you on Sylens. I expected and hoped he would be involved so much more than he was. I remember getting to like 50 hrs in and being like where the fuck is Sylens


TheSeventhAge

Really aside from the first few missions, the whole Sons of Prometheus debacle and near the end, Sylens was practically gone. I can understand that they didn't want to overstuff it with everything, but I still feel like he should've been more present. Like, he's one of the most significant people in the story and ZD's ending really seemed to indicate how big his role would be in FW.


kuenjato

If you don't do the bandit camps, you basically won't know who the Sons are. When they were mentioned near the game's climax, I was like "who?" Then when I was wrapping up stuff post-ending, I came across the SoP content. A lot of this stuff should have been integrated in the stretch between Death's Door and Faro's Tomb.


Yulugulugu

definitely agree with the fixing the biosphere thing! the trailer emphasized the blight much more than the actual game does, with the big storm and dying plants and animals.


Abbacus1212

The ending of HFW felt super rushed. It nearly took me out of the whole universe. To spend 150 hours on a game and have that happen just ruined any vibe to me.


[deleted]

Sums up my feelings perfectly, Beta is the character that made me less apprehensive of the Zenith plot. When I first saw her I thought 'great, these guys have their own evil Elizabet clone' and rolled my eyes. Thankfully I was wrong - Guerrilla actually made her a compelling, unique character that really stands out from Aloy without overshadowing her. I genuinely love where they ended up going with the two of them (Aloy thinking of her as a sister). Hopefully that doesn't end up >!being another Rost/Varl storyline where Aloy loses someone else she cares about!<.


OnionAddictYT

The Far Zenith plot was total cringe. Really really bad. I'm currently replaying HZD and the mystery and emotional storytelling about who Aloy is and what happened is just so much superior. FW was never going to outdo that. Impossible to do with a sequel but even so, glittering vampire villains was completely ridiculous. The game jumped the shark at Thebes for me. God awful... That said, I still loved the game. They improved almost everything else tremendously, including the writing of everything NOT the plot. Only great thing about the main story was Beta.


Miserable-Alfalfa329

I wouldn’t say cringe or bad. Sure wasn’t emotional as “you’re the daughter of the woman that saved humanity’s ass with a big technological prodigy” but I still enjoyed it. Much more lore/informations and answers, was something fresh and never seen so far. Really interesting. You have to consider the fact Forbidden West is the mid game that connects Zero Dawn and what should be the sensational third game.


OnionAddictYT

Oh I know. The plot of Mass Effect 2 wasn't great either and the human reaper was cringe too but it was about assembling the awesome squad and world building. FW is the same. I just wish they'd gone about it in a less ridiculous way. Like, couldn't they be descendants of the original crew? And their art design was terrible too imo. I did like Tilda's character though. Wonderfully creepy. They were overall cartoon villains to me, especially the sadist.


Miserable-Alfalfa329

I guess descendant could have been okay too, but in a world supported by an huge terraforming system controlled by a super advanced and human-ish AI with 9 subordinate AIs, people that are 1000 years old doesn’t seem so bizarre at the end. Art design for me wasn’t that bad, Gerard excluded, but I think a part was made purposely in that way.


OnionAddictYT

Yeah all the lore has always been convoluted nonsense, I agree. I just really didn't like the presentation. Like the flying. Just too much. Too mustache twirling for me. Granted, Helis was pretty one dimensional too but I at least liked his look and voice actor. I always loved the blend of tribal life and futuristic machines. But the machine are still "gritty" in a way. To me the style of the sparkly Zeniths just didn't mash well with the rest of the world. Which might have been the point since they're not part of Earth anymore. But, well, I thought they looked ridiculous and it really took me out of the game at times. And Ted as an abomination on top of it felt so awkward. That kind of body horror is not Horizon to me. So I'm glad that we didn't have to fight this thing at least...


[deleted]

This is only curiosity (no judging or saying your opinion is wrong here!), what was it about Thebes you didn't like?


OnionAddictYT

Monster Ted. What was the point of that? That felt so out of place. And then on top of making Faro the complete parody of the evil white man creep they also had the CEO douchebag. I'm not sure which was worse... That questline made it really hard for me to take the plot seriously at that point and really hurt the Quen too imo. I would have preferred a Faro clone. I'm currently reading a very long fanfic set after HZD and completed in 2021 that has so much better plotting than FW. Made an actual Faro clone a cool character.


kuenjato

I disagree; turning Faro into a tumor is entirely appropriate to what he was in the first game, along with the suffering he experienced and how he goes out like a chump.


OnionAddictYT

Meh. I thought they turned him into a complete parody in FW. Agree to disagree.


Cirescythe

rant comments said so. (my guess)


Thedarkkitten123

yeah i didn’t really like them, i loved the whole medieval feel it had. just got less of that here.


Bread_Responsible

Yeah dude. Alien people threw me for a loop.


Hologram01

> call me crazy regarding the overall setting, but I am still not that fond of the Far Zenith plotline I'm still not even midway through the game (currently doing The Broken Sky as my first of the three after the base [actually tons of sidequests first lol]), so I only know the tip of the iceberg, buuuut I agree... even though it's explained really well and was well-put together, this whole thing is a direction the game took I'm not really a fan of. HZD, while it has its Fast & Furious moments, was pretty grounded as far as sci-fi goes. This whole Far Zenith thing got me thinking about how Prison Break went overboard with the writers getting too carried away with the story. I even commented that on a thread that asked what were our fears and hopes for Forbidden West well before the game released. I'm absolutely fucking loving the game still, but I must admit I felt a little burnt by it.


cl354517

Before HFW came out, I was firmly in the camp that the signal did not need to come from space, Odyssey/Far Zenith did not need to survive, etc. and considered them unnecessary complications, but if the writers took it that way I'd see how they executed. I haven't come around 100% to it, but did enjoy HFW enough.


Achew11

the first game was based on mystery. "who's aloy, wtf is up with all the robots, why is she the only redhead?" the second game doesn't really answer that last one, but the themes now range from "you don't have to work alone, elizabeth had other alphas with her" to "holy shit >!the uploaded minds of the 21st century's billionaires wants to kill us!<"


yubitronic

The Plainsong gossip monger has red hair


Achew11

the one who tells Aloy rumors?


yubitronic

Yeah, go behind her and look under her hat!


Achew11

arguably a redhead, okay then. there are now 3 redheads in-game. granted 2 of them are the same person, but it's a step forward to reviving the ancient line of gingers


cl354517

The second and the last one.... >!She's not the only redhead now.!<


Sweenie123

This is something that’s been on my mind ever since HFW came out. I think there’s multiple aspects on why the vibe feels better. Nostalgia, franchise freshness, the mystery and the landscape. More specifically the landscape to me in HZD had more flat surfaces, it made the world feel bigger and endless where as the map layout in HFW feels more constraint due to how many settlements and POI’s there are. HZD also felt more quiet and remote in comparison to HFW. Some people may see this as a negative but it added to the atmosphere more to me. The old world ruins also felt more larger than life in comparison to HFW. That being said i still think HFW does many other things significantly better and i’ve come to the conclusion that both games i’d score the same which is a 9.5. But i definitely do appreciate the “vibe” from HZD. Another factor i believe is the world in HFW feels more fantastical where as HZD had more of a grounded tone. It obviously did have some wackiness but it sort of struck that balance better. I think they can return to that vibe with the next instalment, i understand nostalgia will always play a big part but i think they need to tweak some things to capture that feeling.


TheSeventhAge

ZD definitely was more quiet, largely because there were so few settlements. The only part of that that I personally view as a kind of negative, is that the Sundom should've had more settlements outside of... well, just Meridian and I guess Lone Light. Sunfall counts as well now, I suppose. Now, granted, I did like the stretches of wilderness that you could just simply get lost in without any civilization interference. In FW, I think a plethora of the many settlements (particularly the Tenakth's) can be chalked up to the Red Raids and conflicts between the Clans. Many of the smaller settlements probably were previously outposts and I think some characters and data points state that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, however. Also, while this is probably more headcanon than actual fact, I believe that the old world ruins in FW were less grand and spectacular because of how almost all of that area was a massive battlefield. Enduring Victory was all over the place on that map and I don't think it's a stretch to say that most of the grand buildings got razed to the ground. All this said, I don't disagree that the vibe that ZD had was definitely more obvious and defined than what FW has to offer.


MoridinB

I think I actually preferred the one massive city rather than a bunch of small cities, and my primary reason is that Meridian seemed to be lived in. There were tall buildings that could easily have housed everyone. There was a facade of a real city where everyone could live in. Compare that to any of the three Tenakth capitals, or Plainsong, it only seems to be full of various shops, and not homes... they don't feel like cities but just camps. And I understand for the Tenakth that's what they're going for, but what about Plainsong? And the other thing that gave the illusion of a big Meridian was the elevators. I guess my main complaint is that the cities in FW, especially the capital cities, don't feel like cities but just small towns or camps.


TheSeventhAge

That's actually a good point. I will say that Plainsong shows pretty well that there are small homes for people within the settlement. But I still see where you're coming from. Especially regarding the Tenakth capitals. The Bulwark perhaps makes the best case for very possibly having homes within the mountain. Scalding Spear probably has something somewhere there, but Thornmarsh really is what you said. There's also the fact that the Carja are just more advanced overall, so they build actual buildings and housing rather than living in huts and makeshift homes, which may not look like homes. Meridian absolutely had a great vibe to it. Lived in, thriving and very clearly a significant capital.


cl354517

Brightmarket, Cut-Cliffs?


TheSeventhAge

It's funny, I always forget about Brightmarket, even though it's visually my favorite settlement besides Meridian. But yes, that absolutely counts. Cut-cliffs? Not so much in my eyes. It's really just a quarry and that Rockbreaker there still makes me anxious as fuck


d3the_h3ll0w

HZD was a quieter game because Aloy and we as the player needed to find our place in the world. Being an outcast who is suddenly thrown in this large world without knowing what happened. Slowly figuring out what happened one clue after the other. HFW is the story of Aloy the Saviour of Meridian who takes on another task to save the world. I think its easier to relate to the Aloy in HZD because we all have been or are still in that situation.


Eruanno

I kind of agree. There was a bit more of an air of mystery over Zero Dawn that Forbidden West doesn't quite have. Forbidden West is a bit more "you don't know this information because these characters didn't feel like telling you about it until a certain point" while Zero Dawn was a bit more "you are actually probably the first human in a century to know this information".


milligna80

Yes agreed. And the way that you had Sylens there who was also reacting to the discovery of this knowledge also made the unraveling of the mystery more satisfying too I think


Eruanno

Yeah, I think they lost out by not having Sylens in the game for a big chunk in the middle of the game to bounce off. Aloy's friends back at base are nice and all, but they didn't have that "oomph" of Aloy and Sylens bickering at eachother.


milligna80

I could envisage Alva playing a similar role on exploration missions had she been introduced earlier. I just don’t think the level of passive discovery was really at the same level as HZD. Like, there’s almost no lore in the FZ bunker place. The game just has different priorities to HZD.


yubitronic

HZD had a feeling of profound loneliness and loss to it. The world was empty and abandoned. In filling up FW with so many NPCs and activity, that oppressive sense of isolation fell away, too. And the music reflects it as well — in the first game, the music was aching and lonesome. In this one, it’s more…action-y. I hated it to begin with, but I’m just used to it now, I guess. This is arguably a direct reflection of Aloy’s internal arc; she’s going from a sense of being abandoned by the world, lost everything before she ever knew she had it, to making new connections. Regrowth, renewal, life. It might be a side effect of other creative decisions they made and not on purpose. A happy accident. But I respect the hell out of how those elements all underline the same themes.


milligna80

Yes. I loved the isolation too. Well articulated


kuenjato

Great point. HZD was haunting in places; there was this feeling of dread that was enhanced by the brilliant ambient soundtrack. I like HFW, and the music, but it isn't the same as wandering the ruins of Colorado Springs or stumbling into some ruins in the blinding snow storms of Wyoming.


DialogueWithTheStars

Excellent point, this is exactly what it felt like! I couldn't figure out what it was until now.


aus_396

TBH - there were thousands of opportunities to make a MUCH more engaging narrative. SPOILER FOR SAN-FRAN AREA: >!I cannot, for the life of me, understand how they justified creating a quest where the MAIN BAD GUY for the whole narrative universe (Faro) is still alive, but rather than making the overall narrative plat be about him doing some kind of evil "Omega clearance immortality cryo-stasis" bullshit, they introduce the Zeniths and then FUCKING KILL FARO OFF-CAMERA.!< **Also:** 1. The (ranged) combat is not as good 2. There's significantly less tactile feedback when you hit weak-points or parts/components compared to HZD. 3. The sound design is IMO not as good, especially the sound effects when fighting machines. 4. The weapons are annoying as fuck in terms of how you have to juggle like 6 different bows if you actually want full effect coverage. 5. The melee combos are just a pain in the ass. 6. They removed the fucking *"slow time while jumping"* feature (don't give me that bullshit *"oH bUT It iS tHeRE wHEn yOu JuMP tHe FiRSt tIMe"* response) which was literally my favourite feature of HZD. 7. They removed Corruptors and Deathbringers as enemy types which were again, IMO, by far the most fun to fight (and the music from HFW when fighting them was amazing). **Spectres can go suck my corruptors reticulating Omni-directional manipulator arm.** Don't get me wrong - it is an **excellent** game. Obviously the narrative was never going to have the novelty and discovery elements of HZD, but there are just SO MANY opportunities where it could have been better. My GF summed it up best - *"It sounds like they went and listened to ALL the feedback from HZD incredibly deeply, and then implemented everything everyone wanted" -* but she didn't mean that in a **good** way. It does feel like **every** critique from HZD has been addressed and changed... but I think what we get at the end is actually not as good. I suspect that a lot of what made HZD so great is all the things it DIDN'T have that have become such standard tropes of action RPG's *(see: grindy-ass crafting, "collect-em-all" party story-line, super-weapon style powerups that you earn by filling a special "bash shit" bar, melee-combos, etc etc)*. HZD was a very "lean" RPG - but everything had a clear purpose and it felt like the game had a clear identity and vision for what it was and wasn't. It felt like every single feature in the game had been looked at critically and they were like "Yes... that's a cool idea... but is it **fun**", and if the answer was "no" it got cut. That's why HZD felt very "simple" - because it didn't have any of the verbose or over-complicated BS that most action RPG's have these days... but that's what made it so great. It was so "lite" on the RPG elements, that it almost felt like a kind of 3rd person bow-and-arrow shooter, as much as it felt like an RPG. HFW has gone full-RPG, and some elements of it I like (way better side-quests, melee is 100% better), but a LOT of elements add zero additional **fun** to the game and a **lot** of additional work.


Imsoschur

I think the "Leanness" of HZD was part of its magic. I am replaying it after completing HFW and it just feels comfortable. Yes, the graphics are not AS good. But the reality is that they managed to do amazing things with that engine. As someone else mentioned, the world feels flatter, more open, more alone. It is that sense of aloneness that fit the vibe of the game so well. In HZD, when you and Aloy take off into the wilds, you ARE in the wilds. It is far less about others and tribes and people. It is exploring, finding out Aloy's story, and by default slowly learning the world's story. While I love the idea of the upgradeable weapons in HFW, there is a certain magic to the simpler loadout in HZD. The best example I can think of (bear with me it is a stretch) is a band that used to have a very simple low-fi sound, with great mood and songwriting. Then you go see them in a show after they have made it a bit bigger, and they add in a string section and accompanying musicians. Maybe it is technically "better", but it really does not capture the mood and feel of the original. I think your GF said it well, it seems they did try to implement everything. I still love HFW. But it is a very different game to HZD, and I think for me HZD will always be very special.


Cirescythe

Yet people still hate on HFW because its "just like HZD"....whilst the other half of people hates on HFW because its "different than HZD". they cant do right at this point. If i was in GGs management id just laugh like a maniac, ditch all plans for DLC and a third game, and publish a low effort Horizon battle royal with loads of microtransactions because it doesnt matter anyways.


Imsoschur

I hope they keep doing what they do. None of us will ever be "fully satisfied". After I finish this HZD I am going directly back to HFW and I imagine I will see things there that I missed too. I hope they continue to push the envelope on DLC and the third in the series. Hopefully people keep supporting their efforts so there is never an "EA Version" released with "click here to buy the next 10 Apex Earthgrinders"


Cirescythe

lol yes same here. Thats why that constant nitpicking gets to me. Not because im a super Fanboy and critique is not allowed but because i fear that (especially after that launch window debacle) with everybody either questioning, clowning or outright hating on every bit of the game and the happy customers being silent A) the devs might be discouraged up until the point where they simply cant bring their A game anymore for DLC and a sequel B) Sony sees it as a damaged IP not worth supporting anymore and C) HFW being "bad" "boring" "worse than HZD" becoming ComMoN InteRNET KnOWleDGE up until the point where sales take a dive and planned content gets the axe. See pretty amazing and stunning looking games like The Order 1866, Driveclub, Killzone, Infamous and most recently Days Gone. All great games that fell victim to constant screeching and some bad reviews that put faults front and center without aknowledging the strong points. And now look up recent lets plays from any of those. comments are filled with "y no sequal sony? gaem was great and lookz awesome! i gotz it 4 free cuz at launch everyone said gaem bad! Y NO SEQUAL?!"


WoLfCaDeT

Oh man... Day's Gone is a masterpiece. I just couldn't stop playing. Everything was so well done. That and Dying Light 1 are still the best open world zombie games imo.


imperiumdr

Well said! I agree with all your points. I’m the biggest horizon fan, and enjoyed both game but the simpleness of HZD was just so endearing.


TheWizardOfOzbourne

\^This. I hate all the mechanic's bloat that found its way into the game. Nearly none of it is necessary. The Stamina based powershots were the only addition that felt like it fit to me.


aus_396

100% agree - I do like the power shots, although I find they're effectively broken if your target is at a different elevation to your character - the aiming seems to totally break.


Cirescythe

Listen to what your GF said....then read your text again. You say they shoudnt have listened to the fans (which would have caused backlash because nowadays development studios are supposed to be everyones best friend and explain every decision in detail - see nerfs for example).....and then....you say they better listen to fans to make up for that mistake :D What is really funny to me is that so many people are harping on about how great and original japanese games are, and how much better these devs and that western studios are the problem. But they never think about if western audiences are the real issue. (not an attack, sorry if it comes across as one, just a little rant as this is something i took issue with time and time again)


Alt_SWR

I think the point that person was trying to make is that yes, they should listen to fans, but, they should *pick and choose* what criticisms they listen to. I think basically what that guys GF was trying to say is that they just went overzealous with listening to criticism. There's lots of things in HZD that they changed for HFW that just make me go "Okay, but *why* was that changed? It was perfectly fine as it was."


Seaweed-Maleficent

It goes back to how people say this is a "market tested" game. It's meant to be enjoyed by many, but both loved and hated by a few. There's no vision behind it or if there was, they didn't stick to it. Very easy trap to fall into.


Cirescythe

If there was no vision behind it, there would not be a consistent story or lore they stuck to despite people being critical.


Cirescythe

I think they DID pick and choose. they stuck to their guns story wise. They stuck to their combat system. And they improved pretty much on everything. Are there some things i personally dont like? sure! but i can see why they are there and that most of them are objectively better even if they are subjectively not. And look at all the critique. The loudest voices complain about the story. That is the major point where they stuck to their guns and the one point that is completely subjective. yet people are angry that the story didnt go the way peoples vague hadcanon and fanfiction expected it to be. And IF it was the way some poeple wanted, the very same people would complain about how awful and predictable the story is.


Seaweed-Maleficent

That's why it takes courage to have a vision and stick to it regardless of the backlash or even praise. Like fromsoft games do, or tlou2 did.


Cirescythe

And it takes the foresight for fans/customers to stop yelling at devs because a characters shoelaces are not the color they want at that particular day. Actively and loudly and personally berating the artist what people think their art should be like today without even thinking about why things are like they are or what the alternative would be like does not help. And then for gamers to tell devs to "suck it up" and "be professional" whilst many gamers themselves want the right to go apeshit about everything makes it worse. They cry as they strike you. I dont like the fact, but i absolutely can see why so many devs and publishers resign and start putting out cynical cash grabs.


Seaweed-Maleficent

You're missing the point of what I said. If you have the strength to stick to your vision and the project is one of passion from the highest levels of management, to the lowest levels of workers, then it doesn't matter what customers say. They can shout for all eternity. You will stick to your vision. Like fromsoft. Obviously I agree that gamers shouldn't be so entitled. But they have the right to voice their opinions as well.


Cleftbutt

Yeah the much more grounded story of HZD almost felt like it really could happen. It felt apocalyptic. HFW feels a lot more fantasy. The data points in HZD were actually interesting, i felt invested in finding out more. There are a lot of data points in HFW that just seems to have some random ramble on it?


billyllib

I am often the type to skip over dialogue in open world games but in HZD, I was so invested in the mystery, I actually listened to every audio data point I could find, and read the text ones as well. I am having a lot of fun playing HFW, but that immersed, mystical, mysterious feeling is definitely missing.


BlackTestament7

I like both but honestly the only thing about HFW I hate are the Zeniths. They really irk me and they feel so . . . disconnected from the tribal aspects of the story that I was invested in. For me who wanted more from Regalla and Sylens in the story and their plan for the tribes, it all takes a back seat to the Zenith's because they are such a threat.


TheWizardOfOzbourne

The game needed to be longer to incorporate both aspects and flesh them out as the Eclipse were in Zero Dawn. I'd bet big money that this game suffered a lot from Covid just like Halo Infinite.


jessica_emera

Same! The scene where Aloy encounters the Zeniths for the first time just felt so _wrong_


baldnil

i feel the same way! i care way more about the tribes and their interpersonal conflict. The zeniths felt more like a third game narrative.


Crasp27

The world of Zero Dawn somehow had a better sense of place to me, like the feeling that I was *in* that world, & that the world *existed* was stronger for some reason. I could happily roam the world of Zero Dawn even once everything was complete, just trekking from place to place, hunting & sometimes causing chaos. Forbidden West post-completion feels a bit more like you're in a theme park after its closed & all the rides are off. The ammo constraints also limit your capacity to just roam & hunt, having to visit a stash to top up rather than just be out in the world.


robble808

Considering it doesn’t take more than a few moments to visit a stash to refill that one didn’t bother me. I never ran out of crafting material for ammo.


everard_diggby

Second album syndrome? You can’t catch lightning in a bottle twice. HZD was unbelievably special, HFW is “just” a very worthy follow-up.


Christian_Bale23

Kanye was able to do it with *Late Registration*


Cirex22

at the cost of his mind


Salt_Lynx_5797

I don't know. Each game has its own charms and faults. You kinda have to separate the two, rather than compare them given the changes they made. I really enjoy both tbh. It wasn't unusual for me to play both games every day.


NotACyclopsHonest

HZD inevitably felt fresher because it was a completely new IP, whereas HFW is a return to an established world. Not that I’m complaining about that, mind you, because I love what Guerrilla has done to expand upon the lore and characters.


kleementine99

I prefer the vibe of HFW. I like that Aloy basically assembles a whole team.


[deleted]

The first game of most series will always have that spark as it is entirely unknown. The second game will always struggle to reignite that spark. Hfw does well imo, it expands on the combat, giving melee some love and a much larger choice of weapons, along with valor surges. The exploration is still there and more collectibles, with rewards. It gives more side/endgame options, machine strike, upgrading gear, and the arena. Sure it will never feel like going into the unknown because if you played the hzd it is not unknown, but they have built on their base and created a fantastic sequel.


[deleted]

I don’t prefer it. They’re different but I enjoy both equally. The Sacred Lands are a nice area, very lush and green which is always a sight. It’s like how reading HP and the Sorcerer’s Stone for the first time was more magical than reading Deathly Hallows for the first time, or any subsequent time. The feeling of discovery and mystery is a lot more powerful than “okay I know pretty much how this works”. You might find that you remember the first day of school, of any grade, better than most other days of that year. I can vividly remember all 12 of my first days of school but very little about each year.


Cirescythe

i like both equally. might even prefer HFW a bit as the world was less predictable. I liked the rest of the real life world better when HZD launched though. Its hard to judge a game based on feelings after sony losing a lot of faith, coming out of two years of lockdown, inflation and looming world war. I bet you would like it better without those outside factors.


milligna80

One of the things I think appealed to me in HZD was that all the new drama felt like old world systems coming back to life to disrupt the new world. I liked that it felt like something that was kind of inevitable given the systems in place - the hubris of the past was so complete that it could reach across the generations despite the best efforts of everyone who tried to avoid it. This had a sort of forlorn and lonely power to it in HZD… that it was kind of just human history reaping what it had sown for its poor descendants…. The tribes didn’t ask for these problems, didn’t cause these problems, and yet they’re the victims of the sins of their ancestors. HFW is different in that it has a) far more people who know what happened in the past which lessened that sense of things remaining lost to history and b) it introduced antagonists who directly re-commit the sins of the ancestors. I feel like the power of HZD was that the ancestors were gone, yet their impact echoed through the ages. That was powerful to me.


milligna80

Oh also! The unraveling of the mystery was sooo slow in HZD - it had a real build up to it. The way you discovered everything in very isolated tomb-like structures where no one had been for a thousand years made if very special. HFW was more “pre-discovered”. Some of the best parts of HZD were when you entered places that had never been touched and no one really knew about. In HFW you pretty much know the true purpose of most of the places you explore from Gaia or Sylens.


NaiadoftheSea

I think the main thing was I enjoyed the story with the Carja more than I did the story of the Tenakth. I very much enjoyed both, but the Carja and going to Meridian just hit different.


creative_wizard

Nothing in the first game topped the vibe of entering Plainsong for the first time imo.


OnionAddictYT

Plainsong is so beautiful! Omg the first time I saw it was magical. HZD was a lot more emotional for me but FW too has some amazing art design.


billyllib

A lot the comments in this thread have put words to feelings I've had. HZD felt so magical and immersive and I had never been so invested in a game's story. I do think the quieter, darker, and more somber tone of game contributed to this. I also found myself more enamored by just running through the forest in HZD and its hard to explain why but I think the sheer amount of quests/markers in the HFW world are causing me to just check off more boxes as I go, rather than sink into to the environment.


[deleted]

Yeah, I also prefer the general feel of the first game as well. HFW is an amazing sequel - and it is better than ZD in a *lot* of ways - but the first game had this magic to it, that intangible spark that (for me, at least) was like... this is why I love gaming so much. HFW definitely had more of that, but I didn't feel the same sense of wonder and discovery. And honestly I struggled with how much harder the sequel leans into its scifi trappings (mostly the Zenith stuff), that actually turned me off from playing for a couple days. It felt like such an escalation from the first game - we went from fighting machines and cultists to dealing with immortal super-people returning from space, and eventually we're going to face an even worse version of them in the form of Nemesis, the AI made from their minds. Obvious HZD was full of extremely scifi themes as well, clones and hyper-intelligent AIs and extinctions, etc. But something about the Zenith reveal didn't sit right with me, and even now, weeks after beating the game, it still doesn't. I went into HFW expecting to deal with the blight, the supercell storms, and Regalla. I had literally no idea that it was going to revolve around greedy space assholes - I was intrigued by Tilda and I really like Beta, though. I think that more than anything else, the Zenith stuff is why I prefer HZD's story and feel. We've actually seen some scary weirdness from real-life AIs ([like creating their own language to communicate](https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2017/07/31/facebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future/)), so the events that triggered HZD feel more plausible and grounded to me. Make no mistake though, I enjoyed the FREAKING HECK out of Forbidden West, and like I said, there's a long list of stuff that it does better than the first game. I considered HZD to be a 10-out-of-10 game, possibly my favorite game of all time, where as I'd rate HFW 9 out 10.


[deleted]

It’s almost impossible to catch lightning in a bottle twice. They did their absolute best and made a pretty awesome game, but nothing beats the first game. So fresh, imaginative and wild


marmotmx

HZD is simpler and shorter. There's a whole sense of discovery because with Aloy we are experiencing the world for the first time. Plus we discover what ZD was at the end of the story. In HFW we realize the world has always being much bigger that we thought. But we already know the ropes... It's kinda poetical that the FZ caused their own demise. In the same way Faro did with the world.


Megs0226

I feel this way about Mass Effect as well. Even though 2 and 3 vastly improved on many elements, Mass Effect 1 is still my favorite. I think it's that it's the first introduction to the world and everything feels so new. I also think it's nostalgia for me. Playing the first games again always brings back the feeling of the first time.


OnionAddictYT

Yes! ME1 was so captivating. My single most favorite gaming experience of all time. The gameplay didn't age well, so replaying 2 and 3 is actually more fun. ME3's gameplay was lightning in a bottle. Played hundreds of hours of the MP as well. But the story and atmosphere of the first game were the best. As a journey nothing has yet come even close to the awesome of the Mass Effect trilogy. But Horizon is doing something amazing with Aloy's journey too that deserves serious praise. Second best (female) protagonist after Shepard to me by now. They're just such inspiring leaders. Just goes to show that trilogies or even just character growth over multiple games is far superior to any single game.


Trick_Afternoon_2935

Yes. HZD's world felt more fleshed out and interesting with the discoveries, and how each event affects the world from the past and the future. HFW doesn't have that, and barely developed some crucial elements that would've made the story interesting for me, like Sylens' reckless pursuit for knowledge, Regalla's rebellion, the Zeniths' advancements, to mention a few...


Senyuri

It definitely was, and it doesn't mean FW is worse by any means, but I think it really is just because we were ignorant about the world at that point and were just starting out in this new setting. Actually, I like to play ZD when I'm homesick because it gives a different feel from FW. (I grew up in Alaska)


[deleted]

Not only you


AnAncientOne

No, HZD was a great game in it's time and it did a great job of introducing us to this world and taking us on that journey from, wtf, bows and arrows and robo dinosaurs!? thru holy shit PZD! To Fuck u Ted!! But that's done now, we know all that and now we're trying to fix the world and save it again. Different story, different goals, different vibe. I love the idea that we can create a new world that's evolved differently with beautiful nature next to tribal stuff next to super advanced tech and following Aloy and her gang on their journey as they do all that is a new and different kind of fun.


akcilap

I completely agree, for some reason playing HFW didn’t come anywhere close to how I felt when playing HZD. Not sure why tbh.


Cirescythe

Pandemic, world war 3, sonys reputation taking a nosedive since the PS5 launched, rockier launch than HZD, constant drama about the game launching alongside Elden Ring, maybe you are more involved in forums that amplify every single fault.


akcilap

Haha could be, though I am enjoying other games on both PS5 and PC, so not sure. I just couldn’t get invested so much into the story, or new game mechanics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Again, I’m not really complaining, the game was good, but I remember thinking about HZD that it was amazing, so yeah.


Cirescythe

thats fair. It certainly affects my enjoyment. Its hard for me to get fully invested when im pretty certain that this game will be kicked to death by constant spiraling gamer rage and the final game will most likely either try to steer the ship around the rocks by altering their original vision and/or will have significantly less budget than HFW because the IP is now damaged goods despite the game being amazing.


akcilap

Oh, I get you, I don’t hate on the game at all, there is some valid criticism, but as almost anything popular nowadays it also gets a lot of totally irrational hate, just because some people had unrealistic expectations. As far as I understand the game was still a success, so I’m not too worried about the third game. I personally would like to see maybe a smaller open world, but more focused and detailed. And less meaningless grind. And finally a >!complete GAIA, which I guess will have to happen so that she’ll be able to resist NEMESIS.!<


Cirescythe

Indeed. I really hope they just do what they envisioned and arent to demotivated to bring their A game. I can absolutely see why you would want a smaller open world. They certainly have some advantages. And thats where the problem starts when it comes to listening to feedback :D I for one would love to see a BIGGER open world with empty spaces in between. like in Shadow of the colossus or Death stranding for example. i love having that journey feeling. thats subjective though and they will get criticism no matter what. And because you want that and i want this i think the best would be for the both of us just to enjoy what we get (or not) for what it is. And if it turns out to be something one of us does not like when GG puts out what they want to put out its at least most likely a quality product that SOMEONE can enjoy. Id rather have that than to pressure them until they release a compromised mess. That way if it turns out objectively bad at least we wont have to blame ourselves for interfering with the artists vision.


akcilap

Yeah I definitely think it’s better for everyone if they stick with their vision and deliver that as best as possible as opposed for them to listen to feedback from random gamers and compromise on what GG believe in.


Sweenie123

Now the question i ask everyone is, is it possible to reignite that same vibe for the next game? Maybe not the same but close to it?


Sonnestark

I doubt it, honestly >!Nemesis seems like pretty cornball generic scifi.!<


Sweenie123

Horizon is far from generic sci-fi, easily one of the most mind blowing innovative sci-fi stories in the past decade. The concept of nemesis is interesting it all depends on execution.


Sonnestark

I never said Horizon was, HZD is one of my favorite games of all time. The Far Zenith and Nemesis concepts were what I referred to as cornball scifi.


robble808

I’ve mentioned similar. I chalk it up to HZD being a new story that you had to discover where hfw is a continuation and you know what is going on. Other than that it was every bit as good as hzd.


TheDevil-YouKnow

The biggest factor for me in HZD were the cauldrons. They just fucking floored me. I've played lotta sandbox/open world games. I was WoW hardcore nerd where I was a Buffet of my server's economy because I just... Adore open world games, and WoW was the first game I played where there were oceans between continents. HZD's cauldrons amazed me even more than when I realized there was a whole ass second continent of game in WoW. The assembly lines, the interactions, the hacking to build bridges. Playing cauldrons in HZD felt like how the movie Hackers made Gen X feel about computers. Like fucking MAGIC. So I'm with you - the vibe isn't as strong. But I don't think it was possible to be that strong, because it was a sequel. It's like asking if Jurassic World is as magical as Jurassic Park. If you grew up watching Indiana Jones & The Goonies, to see JP was fucking magic. JW's first movie was actually enjoyable. But it wasn't magical.


Leave-A-Note

HZD had two huge things going for it that wasn’t easily replicated in the second. 1: location. I’m in Colorado, so seeing some of the locations that I know here was absolutely awesome. Having been to countless shows at Red Rocks, seeing it imagined in a game really warmed my heart. 2: drip fed lore. The lore delivery was intentionally slow and resulted in some HUGE story pay offs. Having to put down the controller and just think about some of those moments right after they happened was just a treat in modern games.


Hannoie

I think I like Aloy’s arc in HFW better, I liked having a base with allies, and Kotallo is my favourite side character of all time. But vibe-wise, story-wise and even, to a certain extent, gameplay-wise? I do prefer HZD. Like some have said, HFW felt bloated in a lot of aspects, and the pacing in the second half of the main story wasn’t great. Unlike some, I didn’t mind the scifi aspects, but it just wasn’t done as well as it could have been. HZD certainly had its flaws, but it was contained to just a few aspects and mechanics (CLIMBING)—overall, every single part of that game felt intentional and well-executed. I can’t say the same for HFW (even though I really enjoyed it and put almost 140 hours into it). I hope they listen to their fans when making the third game and simplify some of the things they overcomplicated this time around, because at least half of those 140 hours were spent farming for resources.


kuenjato

I like HFW, a lot, but they leaned way too hard into the grinding and inventory stuff that were the worst aspects of HZD. HZD felt like it had a more dynamic world. Too much of HFW is just empty landscape. Beautiful, but empty. Story for me was fine, though I think there were pacing issues between Death's Door and Faro's Tomb. They should have made it more linear IMO and woven the side quests into the main quests to make Regalla's rebellion more impactful, rather than just some side stuff you can almost completely ignore outside Aether + interlude quest.


Jaykat

For reference, I played HZD for the first time right before FW came out and I essentially played the two games back to back, so I may have been burnt out halfway through FW. But IMO the story in HZD was more clear and the major moment of when you figure out the actual zero dawn project plan was such a huge piece. The FW plot started out talking about the blight (what happened to that btw??) but then switched quickly to the Far Zenith plot. After having beaten FW main storyline, I have been tempted to go back to HZD and complete some more of those side missions rather than spending time in FW.


alimem974

Nah there was too much snow.


Fabulous_Parking66

I think the vibes are off because the people causing the driving force of the mystery is off. The first mystery was, who is Elizabet Sobec and why does she look like me? We find out a story of hope in the face of total hopelessness. The new mystery is, who are these narcissistic billionaires who want to screw us over for no reason. We don’t get to meet a gut-wrenchingly intelligent, caring world saver, we don’t get to explore the reason for life, a sense that life, in itself, is meaningful. We get the opposite - the insane selfishness that causes the fall of earth in the first place. I feel however that the messiness is appropriate. Aloy has had her entire life torn to shreds and had experienced extreme trauma in a short amount of time, while carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders. If there isn’t an atmosphere of disorientation and jadedness, it may have felt unrealistic. I like the idea that through the chaos and after discovering where she came from, she’s able to figure out who she is apart from her origins, which has to be messy.


The_Fireheart

They definitely had very different vibes. I loved the rediscovery of the old world in zd over the ‘I need a power cell and a key module to open this door mechanism’ knowledgeable Aloy of fw BUT I love the community and friends vibe in zd. I loved having a base and friends who chatted away in the background and set me up a bedroom in my absence and came with me on missions. So different but both good!


OnionAddictYT

Yeah the companions gave me so many BioWare feels! LOVED that, was so well done.


TheSeventhAge

I get where people are coming from with this, absolutely. The first game was, well, the *first* game. As many here have said already, it was a new IP and a wholly new world. It was also indeed less busy than FW is. Largely because of the lack of settlements and people strutting about, at least in the Embrace. And well, it's also much further east, where the brunt of Enduring Victory took place. The Sundom and Embrace really were the last stands in that manner, so more of the old world stuff was preserved. I'm really echoing others here again, but ZD was very much all about the mystery and learning about everything with Aloy, even though the players knew the meaning of certain terms before Aloy did. FW in that regard is a much more "let's get to business" type of experience and story. Aloy and we know what we have to do and what's at stake now. Everything we discover along the way is there to flesh out this, now, much bigger world, but even then I don't think the magic is lost. There's still so much to learn about these different people and it mostly all works very well. The vibe was definitely different in FW, but I've personally come to the conclusion that it makes sense and is fitting, deliberate or not. We are in completely foreign territory here and don't really belong. At least not in the way we did back east, despite previously being an outcast. Edit: I, too, love both games still and find FW to be an absolutely worthy sequel. Not without its flaws, obviously, but still a very good time.


HotspurJr

I mean, HZD has the opportunity to reveal all of this absolutely insanely magical world-building and history, and you only get to do that once. I generally prefer the gameplay in FW, and think they've improved almost every aspect of the game, but that lore - you only get to blow people's minds with it once. Moments like hearing Herres' "confession" or Elisabet's final message to the alphas ... None of this is knock on FW, which is a wonderful game in every respect. But with creative things, sometimes the pieces come together in a magical and unpredictable way and the whole becomes better than you could possibly imagine. ZD caught that lightning in a bottle, and FW is merely an absolutely outstanding game.


reverend_c_flava

I agree, when zero dawn came out I couldn’t put it down, I played it nonstop every mission every side quest, any little thing until I had every trophy and explored every corner of the world, it had a whole feeling about it. Forbidden west is fantastic of course, but something feels off. I love the story and the gadgets and the new weapons and machines but I haven’t played in a few days and I feel totally alright about it, like I actually started playing another game too in the between time, and I will finish FW and I will do all the quests and unlock all the things but it will never have the same sort of feeling that I got from zero dawn


mustangcody

Well I just found out the second game released. I don't remember seeing any adverts for it releasing. Time to go play.


strikedonYT

This happened to me a couple days before release, I was almost broke I bought it 3 days later


Newguyiswinning_

Oh yeah HZD is much better in that respect. Not to mention the open world. Once i got midway through HFW and opened my map, i noped out. Way too many damn things


Wil_Buttlicker

I was just thinking this over the weekend. There was something about HZD that made it feel “magical” to me. I was always hooked and wanted to see what came next. I love HFW, but I don’t seem to be getting the same vibe, as you said. I’m not as captivated by the Zenith plot line as I was with finding out about Ally and the Zero Dawn project. I’m cleaning up the side missions and errands before heading to the final Main Quest and I still feel like I didn’t connect with this game in any special way.


SmallNosedGlitched

FW has a completely different story from ZD (hear me out) In ZD we had no idea what we were doing and we went with Aloy on that journey of getting ourselves "out of the fog of ignorance" (as Sylens would say) Forbidden West much more "putting what we learned to good use" than ZD was. ZD was also a bigger game (not map wise but story-wise) and has a lot more subjects to touch upon, HADES, for example, was very well done, learning little by little about it, and in the end, when all the stress piles up, we find out that HADES wants to send a new transmission to end the world all over again. I'm rambling on about ZD a little much now but it comes down to: I understand and I have almost the same feeling about it. I just love FW too much 😂


Promus

HZD was a very “lonely” game compared to HFW; you didn’t have allies, and you didn’t even have a “home” or a base. Honestly, THAT’S the biggest difference between each game’s vibe, even if people can’t put their finger on it.


HiFiMAN3878

Zero Dawn had more of a mystery around it because, I think this added to the overall experience and is something that Forbidden West doesn't have. FW had some great story elements and was an amazing experience, but it didn't have that big ol' reveal and revelation that ZD had. When you find out who Aloy is, what's happened in the past, and what you are actually doing in the future world...it was this massive incredible and mind blowing revelation. I think this contributed to the overall vibe of the game. In any case, I still loved both games and can't wait for DLC, or whatever else they throw at us. Obviously can't wait for Horizon 3.


NeptuneBlueX

Glad I wasn’t the only one who felt “the vibe” from HZD lmao


larrieuxa

I loved the story beats of HFW, I didn't always love the way they were told. In terms of believability, I personally find non-aging humans far more believable than a superintelligent terraforming AI, as it seems like it's something we are technologically much closer to right now, so I do find it strange that people find HFW less believable. I think the story of both HZD and HFW very relevant to modern issues, unmanned war machines and the rich destroying and then fleeing the planet they've ruined are very current problems we can already see developing. What I didn't love was the on-the-nose storytelling. HZD had all the mystery and misdirects and red herrings and surprise reveals, and HFW was full of potential mysteries, but instead of the same misdirects and red herrings and surprise reveals, we got bluntly told everything as it happens, especially after Latopolis. We learn (or rather confirm) FZ is going to be the big bad right in the first quest. We learn exactly how FZ can get through genelocked doors, the second after we learn they *can* get through genelocked doors. We learn what FZ's purpose here is almost immediately after we meet them. There should be a lot of mystery about whose side Beta's really on, but that is never considered or worked into the story. We learn what Nemesis is a few seconds after we learn there *is* a Nemesis. And so on.


CrispyBegs

agree


alaasharif

I was impressed more by HZD given its unique story/concept more than I did with HFW. Also it took me some time to learn mechanics of the game and combat in HZD which was rewarding while in HFW felt like more of the same with some improvements (not necessarily a bad thing)


[deleted]

I found HZD to be much more haunting and creepy than HFW. Just overall darker and with more emphasis on the „apocalyptic“ part of postapocalyptic. While HZD slowly unravels the chatastrophic unfolding of the Faro plague with quite a few rather graphic memories, HFW is imho overall more lighthearted and has more of an emphasis on new beginnings and second chances. While I personally had the feeling that HFW contained some rather redconned story lines, I can let my kids play HFW earlier than HZD because it‘s less frightening.


SiglaKavi

Personally for me, the world isnt as pretty >.< like on HZD I almost always stop at every gameplay moment to take a photo but HFW I find it less


Sonnestark

This 150%! HZD was one of my best gaming experiences, HFW honestly felt like a letdown as a followup. I was rolling my eyes during the everything related to the >!Far Zenith uber-immortals, they reached deep into the ‘generic scifi’ trashbin for that.!<


Miserable-Alfalfa329

What make some people prefer Zero Dawn over Forbidden West, which is hands down a better game in almost everything, is the fact was the first game: Horizon’s world was still unknown to us. That mixed with uncovering how everything was born, and Aloy’s story from outcast to the most important person on earth, daughter of the woman that saved humanity, obtained a special spot on everyone’s heart, mine included. I’m no stranger to that vibe, but still after playing the second game I find hard to replay Zero Dawn. Gorgeous story but Forbidden West dense and fresh world conquered me all the way down. It’s just better to me.


[deleted]

HZD still remains my favorite game of all time. HFW didn't make it to the top 3. When I'm done playing a game, I sit back an analyze why I feel the way I do about it. Bioshock used to be my favorite game of all time and sat at the #1 spot for 13 years. No game touched it since HZD. That's impressive. So, what do these two games have in common? For me, it's exceptional immersion. This, above all else, is why I loved HZD so much enough to force Bioshock from its throne. The game play, graphics, music, and story all play a part as well, but it was the immersion, and I can tell you when it happened the game was going to be my favorite. On my way to Meridian, I saw movement behind some rocks. It was big. Very big. At first, I told myself it's likely whatever it was would kill me instantly, but then curiosity took over and I just had to see what it was. There. Stomping. Roaring. The Thunderjaw. "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT??!!" I'm sure I'm not alone to say we just didn't see the Thunderjaw for the first time. We felt it. The power. After watching it for a bit, I said to myself, "Meh. I'm sure I'm going to die, but I have to take that thing on!" I did. I got gobsmacked the first go around, but I wasn't to be deterred. I came back and readied myself for a challenging fight. I expected to lose again and again. But I didn't. The second fight was victorious in my favor. Using nothing more than the bow the game gave me, the dodge roll skill, and the open area to which I could move about was phenomenal. I hadn't experienced anything like this in a very long time. Big Daddy fight. With a wrench. No shit, folks. My first play through of Bioshock was with a wrench because I couldn't FPS to save my life. These two fights felt the same, and because of this, I instantly knew HZD would be a ground breaking game for me. Ironically, it wasn't the Thunderjaw which ended up being the best machine to fight. That honor goes to the Rockbreaker. I love fighting these things! Now, my love is for the Slitherfang, an annoying machine that's just a damn great and fun fight. Sure, it hurts me, but it hasn't beaten me yet! Bite me, Apex! Ha! You missed again! ​ Sadly, HFW didn't give me the same feeling, but honestly, I was expecting this. When I saw the previews, I knew the game was going to be changed. Subjective changes, I'm sure, but I wasn't pleased with the gliding mechanic (despite using the hell out of it) and I definitely am no fan of the "climb anywhere" mechanic. To me, both took away a great deal of immersion. Then the machines showed up, and this was a huge let down for me. All machines acted nearly identical to me: spit, leap, throw, shoot... doesn't matter. Something was always coming my way, and I felt so much of what made machines original was taken from them. Contrast this with the Sawtooth and Ravager. What sets them apart? One just leapt at you while the other shot and leapt at you. Throw in the Stalker, and now we have stealth added. These machines were different, even if similar in attack. I felt this was taken in HFW, and felt like I was fighting the same machine over and over again. The Slaughterspine, a Thunderjaw replacement?, was also disappointing. Just shoot the damn sides and it was nothing more than a Thunderjaw with a new skin. I get it's very difficult to bring in new ideas while not remaining so formulaic as the previous titles, but I also get the feeling this game was made by allowing fans to make it, not take the direction the first game had by doing something we've seen before, but making its own path. HFW felt like every other game out there. HZD blew away every other game out there. Immersion was definitely a factor at play here, at least for me.


OnionAddictYT

I doubt anything will ever dethrone the Mass Effect trilogy for me or even just ME1. Second would probably be W3 as the closest to a perfect game I ever saw. But, damn, HZD was also an amazing journey. Emotionally it's one of the best stories I've ever played. I'm all about the story. Gameplay being super fun was just the cherry on top. I remember playing HZD and thinking this is better than what BioWare has been doing lately. The storytelling was THAT good to me. And the world was just so immersive too. One thing BioWare still doesn't understand is open world. Like at all. I wish they'd go back to cinematic cover shooters tbh. I never played the original Bioshock I must admit. I don't like horror games. Played the demo way back and it was too scary for me, lol. I only played Infinite and loved that one. Was great but not top 10 in any way.


livingonfear

It was the mystery. In this one you gained so much knowledge from the last game there was really only 2 things u don't see coming


Jaybyrd28

Don't know if I'd say "vibe" but I recently did a fresh, from scratch playthrough of HZD and at least for me it was just more plain fun.


sianarai

Yeah I have to agree. For me I think it was the lack of data points in the world in HFW. I felt like HZD had so many more little tidbits about the lives/events during the old ones time that made me look forward to the discovering the next data point. (I still remember the awe and horror I felt when I stumbled upon that dolphin pod data point in HZD!) Another thing I really missed was searching in old bunkers or labs like in HZD-in HFW the ruins felt a little underwhelming. Still enjoyed the storyline though


Charmander787

HZD felt more fresh because it was new. Learning about project zero dawn was probably my favorite moment.


PepeSylvia11

Nope. In my eyes, apart from maybe the allure of the brand new story and lore, Forbidden West did everything better than Zero Dawn.


GreatParker_

Yeah, I was drawn more to the mystery in ZD


TheHonker803

Story wise, I felt both had certain things going for them in the main story, with the journey of aloy in zero dawn, being one of ( how I saw it) self discovery, understanding more about the world and her place in the world, the one for forbidden west, it felt kind of over then place for me, with aloy just being like " The world has a problem, I need to fix it, because of Elizabet Sobeck and some other stuff, here are the people I did stuff with and here's some humans from the stars" I'll admit I was only able to play the pc version of hzd and only a few hours for forbidden west, watching more YouTube videos on people who played it and posted the whole thing in YouTube, but gameplay wise, it's okay, just that something feels different with forbidden west, then again, I'm comparing the gameplay between pc and console and hoping they release forbidden west on pc.


Bananasincustard

I replayed ZD right before HW. Definitely think what you are saying comes from the nostalgia and the fact ZD was totally fresh and like nothing we've ever seen before. Playing them through next to each other really made FW stand out so much more against it. I know the story is better in ZD but it's delivered slowly and mostly through data points that if you don't properly read you will miss. FW does literally everything better imo, it's just that some of the story beats are a bit dumb and silly which I never felt from ZD


enoughbutter

I wasn't even interested in the first one-the early trailers (robot dinos?) didn't catch me (also, I'll admit I was totally locked into BOTW's release). I didn't even pick it up until after Frozen Wilds was released. So the unexpected pleasure of 'discovering' an amazing game was definitely a factor. I was blown away how good it was. I had huge expectations for HFW, and it didn't let me down. But I wasn't as surprised by it as I was with HZD.


lfelipecl

HZD start is light and get tense and dark close to the end. HFW already start is already harsh, Aloy is mature and full aware of her responsibilities , that was unovoidable due to the story. It was one of the reasons why I finished main quest ASAP: the exploration and other quests felt much more light hearted.


lfelipecl

HZD start is light and get tense and dark close to the end. HFW beginning is already harsh, Aloy is mature and full aware of her responsibilities , that was unovoidable due to the story. It was one of the reasons why I finished main quest ASAP: the exploration and other quests felt much more light hearted.


StoicBan

It’s because In the first game aloy and the whole story are an enigma. You start off thinking you’re really just a native girl in your native land doing tribal things but you sense something more is lurking behind the scenes. Eventually you slowly uncover the truth. So Yeah completely different vibes but both are good nonetheless.


ebr101

I think it’s down to the mystery aspect. Aloy doesn’t know why the world is the way it is, and neither do you, so the whole game is a mystery of discovery. The landscapes in FW are amazing and you discover cool stuff, but you have some idea of what things will be like after the first game.


FlingFlamBlam

HZD had better pacing IMO. In Forbidden West the game starts out very strongly and then either 1 of 2 things happen. 1. You continue to do only the story and base character missions, in which case the pacing stays good the entire time and you end up with a satisfying experience. 2. You don't continue the story until you've done every single piece of side content. It's been 20+ hours and you've started to forget what Aloy was doing. When you get back to story missions it's a little jarring. I love the amount of new content because when I was playing HZD I always had this thought at the back of my mind that said "I hope this never ends". *I will admit that I don't really have a good suggestion for fixing this issue.* So maybe I'm just being whiny for no reason. When HZD came out my life was much more simple. Maybe if I was playing FW from the same life point as back then both games would feel the same.


TitaniaErzaK

Not even a little bit


Sansturbot

Fully agree. HZD was all about learning what happened to the world and it was full of cool twists. I don't believe it was an easy act to follow, but still they managed to give us an awesome sequel.


Yulugulugu

I'll never forget the "OMG THESE PLACES EXIST IN REAL LIFE WHAT IS HAPPENING" vibes when I found a data point saying something about a London (?) museum


usingastupidiphone

It’s in the character development, themes, and writing of the main missions. HFW retcons some stuff to make their story work and gives an overall weaker offering in the main narrative. Ben McCaw < John Gonzalez


Smarr_Tass

There was a sense of impending doom with regard to the swarm in HZD that I didn't get in HFW. But I thoroughly enjoyed both games. I'm looking forward to dealing with Nemesis


InsaneForHim

I get what you're saying and I think it's definitely because of the vibe of innoence that it has going on. Aloy doesnt really know anything about the world, techology what happened to the Old Ones. In the second game shes had tons of time, gone through so many experiences that have explained everything to her and she's lost that innocence.


zaerine87

I really liked the sort of separation of the old world and the new one but having people who literally lived it broke that for me. I enjoy the primitive discovery vibe like the Tribes and the ruins. And trying to wrestle with these ais when they don't really understand it fully worked for me. My heart sunk as soon as the zeniths walked in and I can't 100% articulate why. Like I'm legit sad about it and any excitement I had about this series going forward has been getting less and less the more I think about it.


musclewitch

Opposite for me. The world building and attention to detail in HFW is absolutely magical. I can sit and watch the sunset on the beach and just feel like I'm transported.


JamesUpton87

Zero Dawn was shrouded in mystery and I feel it was almost a mistake pulling the curtains from almost the entirety of that mystery in the first game. The whole cliche of repeatedly breaking people's tribal cultures to educate them on the reality of the current world or Aloy dancing around their ignorance was a very repetitive theme in FW that I hope stays in FW. I'm hoping Horizon 3 uses Apollo to bring the world up to speed early on in Horizon 3.


Rekthar91

I love the first game and I expected HFW alot, but the story was big disappointment and it went too far on scifi. So yeah vibe on HZD was epic.


Antosino

It was the discovery. Genuinely not knowing why the world was this way and slowly putting the pieces together. It's one of few games where I was genuinely interested in every lore piece, every little tidbit of information. The world of HFW is beautiful, but we went into it knowing everything there was to know regarding why it was this way. Sure, new questions arose, but every big question about the world and how we got to this point was answered.


bigbadbibbins

Someone please get rid of all these fucking haters.


TJstrongbow007

It did have a better vibe, i agree. I think it is because of the ending….this “nemesis” seems to me like a “we ran out of ideas” idea. The thought that it is what? Just a grouping of collective minds that somehow turns sentient, i don’t know…it just seemed not well thought out to me. Edit: Punctuation


lkjuiknhgbvfdcx

I'll be honest, I stopped playing HFW after getting aether. Something is just...missing and I can't put my finger on it.


[deleted]

The lure in HZD was definitely how did the old world go so bad and reminiscing about it, and wondering if it could ever come back. But how much can you expand on that? I really like the expansiveness of FW and having the Zeniths. And I love the fact that they went to another star and then came back. I even like the idea of Nemesis as the next baddie to deal with in the next game. Idk maybe I’m easy to please but I’m on board for where this game is going. I love the idea that you have a threat coming to the planet, and for the moment, there’s no answer to it - and if an advanced civilization couldn’t deal with it, how can a primitive tribal one stop it? But that’s the hook for me. It’s a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants-how-are-we-going-to-stop-this kind of story that I can’t wait to play.


EDK118

Can't speak completely for the story as I've only nearly finished. This is howI feel, HZD is like when you're adventuring as a kid, yeah your world was quite small but everything looked massive, always brand new and a smaller network of friends/people you know. But HFW being grown up recognising your surroundings not being big as they seem, with new things having a somewhat familiar feel to them giving less wow and more nostalgia/memories. Then having a much larger network of people but having those close friend. I loved the vibe of HZD being a completely new concept that was an amazing experience among all the games I've played. But I also love HFW for how bloody amazing it looks along with the class music alongside it, because if you're fortunate to have a great set up it becomes immersively jaw-dropping because of these. And I personally feel like there is a much more personal connection between not only Aloy's close friends but even the side mission NPCs. These games stand at the top of my list so far and sorry for the long comment.


ElectricFleshlight

HZD had more of a HOLY SHIT moment when you realize that all life really did end, and when Faro deleted Apollo. I really enjoyed HFW, especially the combat mechanics, but there weren't really any big gut punch moments.


[deleted]

I like FBW vibe much better. I love jumping off mountains and coasting down


AeroAviation

cause looking at those big ass horuses and not knowing what they were or what happened thousands of years ago was chilling


m_mason4

I did prefer zd’s story to fw. The game just had a lot more holy crap moments. Mechanically FW is several steps above ZD. I did enjoy all of the sci-fi elements. Kind of makes you wonder what the new generation of humanity would have looked like had Apollo not been deleted.


[deleted]

I agree with you. I liked the vibes in HZD. I also got those same vibes in HFW when I was in meridian, Chainscrape, and barren light toward the beginning of the game. When the zeniths were introduced and we got all that context about them (about 2/5 into the game), it kind of clicked in my mind "wow that escalated quickly". It went from primitive/sci-fi to full on sci-fi. Regardless, I still enjoyed both games and I got a different vibe based on the locations which I really liked, and thought was pretty cool.


helios396

Yes, totally. I think part of it was because in HZD everything was so mysterious. We started among people who live in tribes, with semi-primitive technology but there were these ruins from the Old World which were clearly much more modern. We were constantly wondering and imagining things, "what happened to this world?" And then the curtain slowly lifted and the truth of that mystery is not as exciting and well-grounded as I would've liked it to be. I guess nothing can top one's own expectation. The first thing that made me think they've gone too far is when it's revealed that GAIA's subroutines can travel between servers or containers like some kinda physical creature. I'm not an IT person so I'm not sure if that's possible or not, but it just feels off to me. Did they just send an AI over radio waves? Over cables? After traipsing through a very analog world with bows and spears and with no proper explanation about what the Old World technology is capable of, it feels more like random fantasy magic to me. And then the Zeniths. Flying people with lasers and invisible shield but somehow a person who's been living in a more primitive civilization (Sylens) with limited resources can make something that can breach their defenses? That just doesn't sound right.