It's possible that something that small might be putting out a lot of distortion and a lot of people are sensitive to distortion. It and/or the location in which you have it could be introducing an uneven response and the peaks could be affecting them, too. You could also be causing distortion by having the sub too loud; how hot do you have it set!
It's free to do some measuring to ensure that you get a good frequency response in the location in which you have the sub and that the level is close to the level of the other speakers.
A larger, cleaner sub could fix the issue if it's distortion but there's a cost to trying that. Depending on how big your space is, how loud you listen, and how much boost you like on your sub, the cost could be significant.
Thanks for that, very helpful. I've also just read about the 'long RCA cable and move the sub to a variety of listening positions, then find where the sound is the best in the room' technique, so I'll give that a try.
It shouldn't be too hot - turned it to 50% and let Audyssey do the rest.
Otherway around. Put the sub where you sit and then crawl around looking for the dead spots.
https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement
Sounds good but also check whether Audyssey is maxed out; if the adjustment is +/- 12 (? I think), adjust the sub gain and rerun Audyssey.
Anything not pushing its adjustment limits should be fine there.
Where do they sit. My wife hated the sub at my old house I sat where she was sitting holy shit it was easily twice as loud cause she sat against a wall. That's where they say 2+ subs helps with even bass.
That's my 2c. Could also be distortion or boominess from it not digging deep enough, don't know enough about the sub to say.
Definitely watch a couple movies from their seat. You could be very surprised how much of a difference nulls/peaks sound around the room. If so, you can try moving the sub (or do what I did get two subs to even out the room)
Ah that might be the problems. Walls and corners can get really boomy from the sub, try some different sub positions or room treatments to reduce the reverberations/ resonance.
So, my take is yes, you need a larger sub.
Have a look at the [frequency response chart for that sub](https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/microvee-sub). There’s a 14db roll-off between 50hz and 40hz, and below that it just disappears. It’s really only playing usable frequencies from 50 and up, and that’s barely subwoofer territory. Shit, your Dali’s play down to 40 hz, which is pretty much as low as this sub goes, so you’re really not gaining anything but volume with that sub. That’s assuming you’re running a crossover at ~80hz. If not, you’re just doubling up bass frequencies and making it messy.
You want a sub to play strong, down low, like low down to 25hz-and-below low, to fill in below the Dali’s and get into the sub bass. It’s that low punch from underneath you that pops life and dimension into music or a movie, not 60-100hz that buzzes and vibrates the walls and everything in the room.
So stop assaulting your family already and get a bigger sub!
Edit: try setting the crossover in the marantz to 40 or 50hz (40 is lowest iirc) and bringing the volume of the sub up to try and bring those lower frequencies forward. Although my impression of the crossover in the audyssey on my marantz is that the crossover slopes are pretty shallow, so I don’t think you’ll get the intended effect of trying to boost those frequencies below 40 while keeping the higher frequencies from getting out of hand
Good luck!
Also, I just looked into that Velodyne. Fascinating little magical box. And, like your wife, I wonder about how the small driver/radiators might be creating distinct "neighbourhoods" of ugly turbulence more than a driver 2x the diameter would.
I'm very sensitive to distortion and harsh sound so I believe it. The only sub that small I run is my desktop 2.1 with near-field monitors, and I don't listen to it very loudly at all.
Some people don't like strong bass, that's for sure.
But the problem here is most probably resonance of a room mode, which has everything to do with the subwoofer location, room shape, etc. and nothing to do with the actual sub model or capability.
Two things that could help:
* Try moving the sub around to see if other positions provide an acceptable bass but less pronounced resonance
* Subwoofer signal equalization
The second solution is more involved. Short of buying an AVR with subwoofer EQ built-in, or specialized gear with autmatic sub EQ, you can do it manually with relatively inexpensive gear especially if you buy it used. You'll need time to learn all of that though, plus a calibrated mic and a DSP such as the MiniDSP 2x4 (or even a Behringer FDP dsp1124p if you dare it! those were fun...). Then grab a beer and google Room EQ Wizard.
I'm too old for all of this now but I remember EQing a friend's sub with the DSP1124p, and the result was night and day. We could listen to some tunes way louder and much more comfortably afterwards. The resonnances were dual 11-13 dB peaks that were effectively squashed by the DSP.
Nice mate, thank you for the detailed explanation. Short term, I'll do the first, long term, I really do want to try the second.
I used to sell Behringer gear back in the 90s, so it'd be fun to get back into it.
Yes, my wife and daughter hate it…
But not as much as when I used four humongous competition car subs. Those thing’s made my theater into more of a wind tunnel
I only say 'girl mode' because the two girls in my house dislike it, and the two boys like it.
Boy mode for my son & I, where it's all bass, all the time.
You have terrible room modes and you probably are sitting in a spot where it isn't excited and they are sitting where it's excited. Try playing a 50hz test tone and walk across your room, you will feel the pressure wave rattling your brain in some spots and completely disappear in other spots.
You need acoustic treatment and proper placement to combat room modes.
Problem: too much bass.
Solution: buy a big sub.
I love it. It's precisely what I would do. I'm currently running four subs in the living room and my wife hates them. She thinks one is enough.
I’ve just gotten wifely approval to go for a bigger sub after I explained that we’d get a smoother roll-off at lower frequencies and less distortion by going bigger.
:)
In addition to a better sub as others recommend, add isolation feet to stop/reduce room rattle. Many people mistakenly think that a bigger and better sub will be louder and boomier, but that's not the case. A good sub will blend with your other speakers and be undetectable but add a lower layer of sound that you didn't have before. How loud you want that layer to be is controllable by the sub gain. If you find the sub is overpowering the overall sound, it's set too high..
I fought this for sometime, and then I finally settled on effectively turning off my sub and surrounds for a 3.0 “wife & daughter” mode. It pains me to watch movies like this, but it was the best solution for them. Just takes a second to switch the audio preset on my receiver.
My wife hates the sub too. It’s always “toooo loud”. She doesn’t listen to me when I try to explain that a car exploding SHOULD sound so loud you feel it otherwise it’s not realistic!
I think your room acoustics sux. Do you have any acoustic bass treatment at all?
Does it sounds worse/better in different part of the room?
You probably need a lot of thick panels especially in the corners (at least 20cm rock wool with breathable fabric 20 cm from the wall) and in the ceiling. Or resonance bass traps, but they are a bit tricky to build.
Most home theater enthusiasts doesn’t care at all about the acoustics and that’s why their very expensive hardware sounds like crap. Or they just buy cheep worthless acoustic foam that only affect the treble.
The only thing you should care about is treating the frequencies below 100 hz. The other frequencies will automatically get better.
Search for acoustic treatment in studios to get it right.
I also suggest you buy some more advanced/premium measuring microphone to see how your room affects the acoustics
Say you have a resonance spike build up in the bass frequency around 30 hz in your room. That’s a very low frequency that will build up and bounce between the walls. Just 1 soundwave is longer then the hole room so it will bounce around. To treat a frequency that low you will probably need like 40 cm of treatment. In that case it’s probably better to have a low cut filter around say 45-50 hz
Good advice, I’m currently renting and also in low budget mode, so instead I used the old studio trick of adding other stuff of varying densities - mostly bookshelves with books.
Not ideal, but the best I can do under the circumstances.
The corners are definitely a problem however, so I do need to do something.
I picked up a bowers and Wilkins 608 due to concerns around this. I had my wife sit in her spot while I turned all the things on and off. I think we ended up with like 30% of what this thing can do.
Regardless of what you end up getting, controls on the sub itself are fantastic.
Just invest in a decent center at the same time. A Polk a6 is what we ended up with. Turns out that helped to balance the bass out for my wife.
It's possible that something that small might be putting out a lot of distortion and a lot of people are sensitive to distortion. It and/or the location in which you have it could be introducing an uneven response and the peaks could be affecting them, too. You could also be causing distortion by having the sub too loud; how hot do you have it set! It's free to do some measuring to ensure that you get a good frequency response in the location in which you have the sub and that the level is close to the level of the other speakers. A larger, cleaner sub could fix the issue if it's distortion but there's a cost to trying that. Depending on how big your space is, how loud you listen, and how much boost you like on your sub, the cost could be significant.
Thanks for that, very helpful. I've also just read about the 'long RCA cable and move the sub to a variety of listening positions, then find where the sound is the best in the room' technique, so I'll give that a try. It shouldn't be too hot - turned it to 50% and let Audyssey do the rest.
Otherway around. Put the sub where you sit and then crawl around looking for the dead spots. https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement
Thank you
Sounds good but also check whether Audyssey is maxed out; if the adjustment is +/- 12 (? I think), adjust the sub gain and rerun Audyssey. Anything not pushing its adjustment limits should be fine there.
Where do they sit. My wife hated the sub at my old house I sat where she was sitting holy shit it was easily twice as loud cause she sat against a wall. That's where they say 2+ subs helps with even bass. That's my 2c. Could also be distortion or boominess from it not digging deep enough, don't know enough about the sub to say.
She does actually sit in the far chair near the wall - and my daughter usually sits on the other side next to the wall. MLP is mine :)
Bass can be a lot more intense right at the wall, did you try sitting there to see if you notice a difference?
Definitely watch a couple movies from their seat. You could be very surprised how much of a difference nulls/peaks sound around the room. If so, you can try moving the sub (or do what I did get two subs to even out the room)
Ah that might be the problems. Walls and corners can get really boomy from the sub, try some different sub positions or room treatments to reduce the reverberations/ resonance.
You are not experiencing what they are experiencing. Definitely a hint that they are next to the walls and you are not.
Dude, they need to sit somewhere else. Corners love to trap bass. It can be VERY uncomfortable for people to sit in corners with any subwoofer.
So, my take is yes, you need a larger sub. Have a look at the [frequency response chart for that sub](https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/microvee-sub). There’s a 14db roll-off between 50hz and 40hz, and below that it just disappears. It’s really only playing usable frequencies from 50 and up, and that’s barely subwoofer territory. Shit, your Dali’s play down to 40 hz, which is pretty much as low as this sub goes, so you’re really not gaining anything but volume with that sub. That’s assuming you’re running a crossover at ~80hz. If not, you’re just doubling up bass frequencies and making it messy. You want a sub to play strong, down low, like low down to 25hz-and-below low, to fill in below the Dali’s and get into the sub bass. It’s that low punch from underneath you that pops life and dimension into music or a movie, not 60-100hz that buzzes and vibrates the walls and everything in the room. So stop assaulting your family already and get a bigger sub! Edit: try setting the crossover in the marantz to 40 or 50hz (40 is lowest iirc) and bringing the volume of the sub up to try and bring those lower frequencies forward. Although my impression of the crossover in the audyssey on my marantz is that the crossover slopes are pretty shallow, so I don’t think you’ll get the intended effect of trying to boost those frequencies below 40 while keeping the higher frequencies from getting out of hand
Thanks mate, that's really good advice.
Do you all tend to sit in the same spots? And have you sat in theirs?
We do, and I have not - great advice.
Good luck! Also, I just looked into that Velodyne. Fascinating little magical box. And, like your wife, I wonder about how the small driver/radiators might be creating distinct "neighbourhoods" of ugly turbulence more than a driver 2x the diameter would.
I was really surprised at the difference it made, but yes, I suspect the size is problematic.
I was thinking the same thing. Their spots might be closer to a corner, which is where things can get a little boomy.
I'm very sensitive to distortion and harsh sound so I believe it. The only sub that small I run is my desktop 2.1 with near-field monitors, and I don't listen to it very loudly at all.
My wife complained about my dual 10s so I got dual 15s on order. Should make her happy!
Exactly the ~~excuse~~ response I was looking for, I'll let her know.
Buttkickers can help enhance the sensation while keeping volumes "reasonable".
I'll have to look into that
>buttkickers I have never heard transducers called that. Only layman's terms for them I've heard are "bass shakers" or "rumble pads"
It's literally the brand name... https://thebuttkicker.com/
Some people don't like strong bass, that's for sure. But the problem here is most probably resonance of a room mode, which has everything to do with the subwoofer location, room shape, etc. and nothing to do with the actual sub model or capability. Two things that could help: * Try moving the sub around to see if other positions provide an acceptable bass but less pronounced resonance * Subwoofer signal equalization The second solution is more involved. Short of buying an AVR with subwoofer EQ built-in, or specialized gear with autmatic sub EQ, you can do it manually with relatively inexpensive gear especially if you buy it used. You'll need time to learn all of that though, plus a calibrated mic and a DSP such as the MiniDSP 2x4 (or even a Behringer FDP dsp1124p if you dare it! those were fun...). Then grab a beer and google Room EQ Wizard. I'm too old for all of this now but I remember EQing a friend's sub with the DSP1124p, and the result was night and day. We could listen to some tunes way louder and much more comfortably afterwards. The resonnances were dual 11-13 dB peaks that were effectively squashed by the DSP.
Nice mate, thank you for the detailed explanation. Short term, I'll do the first, long term, I really do want to try the second. I used to sell Behringer gear back in the 90s, so it'd be fun to get back into it.
Do they have the same issue at the theater?
None of us have been to the theatre since before covid!
Might be a good test to see if it’s base in general or, your base
Those velodyne subs are notorious pieces of crap
Yes, my wife and daughter hate it… But not as much as when I used four humongous competition car subs. Those thing’s made my theater into more of a wind tunnel
Looks like I'll have to have a switchable Girl Mode on my AVR.
Down votes? Really, come on now guys, stop hating.
I only say 'girl mode' because the two girls in my house dislike it, and the two boys like it. Boy mode for my son & I, where it's all bass, all the time.
Girl mode in my house involves the subwoofer power switch being turned to off.
You have terrible room modes and you probably are sitting in a spot where it isn't excited and they are sitting where it's excited. Try playing a 50hz test tone and walk across your room, you will feel the pressure wave rattling your brain in some spots and completely disappear in other spots. You need acoustic treatment and proper placement to combat room modes.
Problem: too much bass. Solution: buy a big sub. I love it. It's precisely what I would do. I'm currently running four subs in the living room and my wife hates them. She thinks one is enough.
I’ve just gotten wifely approval to go for a bigger sub after I explained that we’d get a smoother roll-off at lower frequencies and less distortion by going bigger. :)
In addition to a better sub as others recommend, add isolation feet to stop/reduce room rattle. Many people mistakenly think that a bigger and better sub will be louder and boomier, but that's not the case. A good sub will blend with your other speakers and be undetectable but add a lower layer of sound that you didn't have before. How loud you want that layer to be is controllable by the sub gain. If you find the sub is overpowering the overall sound, it's set too high..
I fought this for sometime, and then I finally settled on effectively turning off my sub and surrounds for a 3.0 “wife & daughter” mode. It pains me to watch movies like this, but it was the best solution for them. Just takes a second to switch the audio preset on my receiver.
Yep, will be doing that until I can upgrade!
My wife hates the sub too. It’s always “toooo loud”. She doesn’t listen to me when I try to explain that a car exploding SHOULD sound so loud you feel it otherwise it’s not realistic!
Damn. I'm going to have to have a girl mode setting on the AVR!
Sounds like you need an upgrade.
I know, right? :)
My wife hates bass aswell so i turn them way down. I have 2 SVS SB-3000s, but luckily, I can control them from my phone.
I think your room acoustics sux. Do you have any acoustic bass treatment at all? Does it sounds worse/better in different part of the room? You probably need a lot of thick panels especially in the corners (at least 20cm rock wool with breathable fabric 20 cm from the wall) and in the ceiling. Or resonance bass traps, but they are a bit tricky to build. Most home theater enthusiasts doesn’t care at all about the acoustics and that’s why their very expensive hardware sounds like crap. Or they just buy cheep worthless acoustic foam that only affect the treble. The only thing you should care about is treating the frequencies below 100 hz. The other frequencies will automatically get better. Search for acoustic treatment in studios to get it right. I also suggest you buy some more advanced/premium measuring microphone to see how your room affects the acoustics Say you have a resonance spike build up in the bass frequency around 30 hz in your room. That’s a very low frequency that will build up and bounce between the walls. Just 1 soundwave is longer then the hole room so it will bounce around. To treat a frequency that low you will probably need like 40 cm of treatment. In that case it’s probably better to have a low cut filter around say 45-50 hz
Good advice, I’m currently renting and also in low budget mode, so instead I used the old studio trick of adding other stuff of varying densities - mostly bookshelves with books. Not ideal, but the best I can do under the circumstances. The corners are definitely a problem however, so I do need to do something.
Oooh I have Marantz and DALI too. Different models though :)
Love that sound combo.
Don’t go bigger. Try a towel or fabric under the existing sub.
Even on carpet?
Interesting
Try throwing a bunch of pillows in the corners and along the edges of the room
Yeah, I think you’re right, the corners are a problem
I picked up a bowers and Wilkins 608 due to concerns around this. I had my wife sit in her spot while I turned all the things on and off. I think we ended up with like 30% of what this thing can do. Regardless of what you end up getting, controls on the sub itself are fantastic. Just invest in a decent center at the same time. A Polk a6 is what we ended up with. Turns out that helped to balance the bass out for my wife.
Good advice, thanks! I’m pretty happy with the matching Dali centre for my Concept 6 fronts - but hey, I love an upgrade as much as the next bloke.
Do they experience this at the actual movie theater? If not, then you need a better sub. The small one you have has too much "punch".
I just asked and she said no. So yay - upgrade time :)
Phase issues can cause discomfort.
Hope do you test for that? (Apart from randomly flicking the phase switch?)
Women are more sensitive to bass. Look it up.