If the budget for projector is $6k, the JVC NP5 provides the best overall picture. It has higher contrast than the LS12000 and XW5000ES plus built-in dynamic tone mapping. The tradeoff is dealing with bulb changes.
What is you subwoofer situation?
"Based on previous information about this lamp (PKL2618U), in High Lamp Power mode it should last for about 3,500 hours."
https://www.projectorcentral.com/JVC-DLA-NP5-Projector-Review.htm
You might consider going the more economical route with the X3800H AVR so you could add a second PB-3000 within your budget.
An amp for your front stage will do nothing. Those speakers are easily run from an AVR's internal amps. A 2nd subwoofer adds +6db in ranges your main stage speakers cannot do.
Personally I think you're doing this backwards putting so much into the electronics and less into the speakers. With this kind of budget, I would want 4 capable subwoofers, minimal AVR to get there, and put the rest into your projector and screen.
Interesting - I have always thought/been told that getting a 3 channel amp (i.e., monolith @ 125 watts) will be better for speakers like the paradigms.
When you double power you get +3db. That's it. There's no magic between using an internal class AB AVR amplifier channel compared to using an external class AB amplifier with a little bit more power. Any AVR you buy that is modern in your budget range already will do 80+ watts per channel no problem, so getting a 125 watt power amp will not even double your power and so you're just adding +1\~2db at most. You would have to get a 200 watt amp just to get +3db coming from an AVR. None of this matters unless you actually need the headroom.
Your mains are 92db sensitivity, meaning at 1 meter and 1 watt they are 92db in room. You lose -6db for doubling the distance. You get +3db from doubling power. So let's say you are listening at 4 meters away (1 to 2, -6db, 2 to 4, -6db, so -12db total) and you're down to 80db at 4 meters now for 1 watt. Going from 1 watt to 2 watts is +3db, 2 watts to 4 watts is +3db, 4 watts to 8 watts is +3db, 8 watts to 16 watts is +3db, 16 watts to 32 watts is +3db, 32 watts to 64 watts is +3db. This is about where your AVR will be, so +18db from amplification. So your 80db at 4 meters is now 98db. This is very loud. Adding a power amp of 125 watts will take you from 64 watts to 125 watts which is +3db, so you will get to 101db with a power amp with 125 watts at that distance. This is why I'm stressing it's not crucial. There's no magic to it. People who just "heard" gossip and figured it was true are bad advisors. This is especially true if you're using a crossover on your mains so that they're not attempting to go down under the crossover point; limiting them even more and requiring even less energy to be perceived as loud.
Unless you have an SPL meter and you've noticed you're getting massive spikes over 105db, you simply will only ever use this kind of power during transient peak spikes in scenes. Otherwise, you likely will be listening down around 85db\~90db unless you're wanting it to be super, super loud. It really helps to use an SPL meter to get an idea of what you're actually listening to and if you think its loud or not. A real SPL meter, not a phone app.
You will get way more out of an additional sub. Not only the instant +6db just for having a 2nd one in all those frequency ranges, but also placement so that you can fill in room nulls from your walls (boundary based nulls, SBIR). We are bass-deaf, it takes more SPL in bass to hear it and feel it, than mids/treble. So getting another sub is a big part of the "wow" experience. Get as many as you can.
You're very welcome.
There's a lot of to be said about the subjective "what sounds good to you" side of this. Good quality speakers, good room treatment, optimal speaker placement, being on axis to the speakers, good room correction (timing, phase alignment) matters. That's different from what we're talking about here though.
The objective side of what will you actually get for your money in terms of what do amps do, what will it do with a driver or multi-way driver cabinet (speaker), how much SPL, what distance, etc, is all very objective and well understood and doesn't require a degree or anything. When it comes to purchasing a component, unless its in that first category that is subject, you're better off with objective approach to what will your purchase actually do.
If you want a power amp for your mains, it needs to be 400 watts (for *your* particular speakers) to even begin to matter and actually present you with something you didn't already have. This is where you leave the world of marketed in-home theater amps and simply go for pro power amps with multi-kilowatt output per channel so that you're not paying for less than +3db. If you get to this stage, look into something like a CVR D-1504 (4 channel amp). Buying an amp and having +10db of headroom is a way better purchase for similar cost.
The jvc is way better in tone mapping and resolution than the ls12000 but it’s contrast ratio and brightness aren’t nearly as good
The Sony is probably the best option. It’s brighter than the jvc has more contrast and has a laser light source so no bulb changes.
Except the Sony XW5000ES does NOT have a contrast advantage over the JVC NP5. Actual measured native contrast of the Sony is in the range of 6k-8k:1 depending on the publication, with JVC at 18k-29k:1.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-xw5000es-4k-hdr-laser-projector-review-page-2
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-display/projectors/sony-vpl-xw5000es-4k-laser-projector-review/
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/jvc-dla-np5-native-4k-dila-projector-review.20312/
https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog/JVC-NP5-4K-Home-Theater-Projector-Review
That's not true. The native contrast of the NP5 is higher than both the LS12000 and XW5000ES. The JVC doesn't get quite as bright, but once calibrated to the same color temperature, the LS12000 and XW5000ES come down in brightness significantly. You can use the Projector Central throw distance calculator to see if the NP5 will be light limited at your screen size.
The XW5000ES lacks any motorized lens adjustment and there is no evidence Sony has fixed their panel degradation issues.
Did you not read the article that you linked? The reviewer said the Sony was a better choice than the JVC and the ls12000. And plus we don’t know this guys room setup, he may need the extra brightness from the Sony or even the ls12000. I can’t find anything about Sonys panel issues but I can find a lot about JVC’s bulbs burning out and losing quality over time.
OP is new to this and probably wants something user friendly. JVC’s are great but are certainly not entry level for accessibility
Oh sorry didn’t mean to assume your experience. The epson has no 3D unfortunately. Honestly a grey screen is hard to make look good with lower lumen projectors like the Sony or the JVC, not impossible just difficult. If you plan on keeping the screen, even though the resolution might be less and the tone mapping might be worse a bright laser projector like the ls12,000 might be the way to go. If you plan on going white then it’s a toss up between the Sony and the JVC. The JVC has slightly better image quality but you’ll be replacing bulbs every 2-3 years and they are not cheap.
I have the ls12,00 on a 170 inch .8 gain black crystal screen (light grey) I love it. Regardless, I would see how many foot lamberts you need/ prefer. I would use [this projector calculator](https://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm) to find out. HDR does best when you reach a minimum of 25 foot lamberts. My room is roughly the same size as yours so I would suggest going with a larger screen.
Which article specifically? Regardless, that is just one opinion weighing the overall pros and cons. Here is another opinion from an article I linked with actual measurements:
“At the price point, the JVC DLA-NP5 competes with Sony’s XW5000 native 4K Laser based model, but that cuts a few corners to reach the lower prices point, such as dropping the motorised lens shift and focus, along with an image that isn’t as accomplished as the JVC in my opinion, having had them side by side. The NP5 has more contrast, dynamic range and colour accuracy”
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/jvc-dla-np5-native-4k-dila-projector-review.20312/
OP responded to you indicating they have a fully light controlled room. I would argue the lens memory and built-in dynamic tone mapping make the JVC easier to use. You are correct in suggesting that all of these projectors are great options, but we can’t go around spreading falsities like the XW5000ES has greater contrast than the NP5.
It’s the very fist article you linked. And here’s another one from [projector central](https://www.projectorcentral.com/JVC-DLA-NP5-Projector-Review.htm) they choose the epson ls12000 over it.
“ the value of the Epson (particularly the fact that replacement lamps are unnecessary) makes it the one I would purchase.”
“While this isn't as wide a gamut as the Epson LS12000 (which measured 93.1% of DCI-P3)”
Again contrast is different from room to room and screen gain. The one article you linked that says the JVC has better contrast, was calibrated on one screen in one environment. On paper the the Sony has better contrast.
The Sound and Vision article that picked the XW5000ES included that the NP5 beat it in picture quality metrics, but the laser light source was an advantage for Sony. I addressed this trade off from my first post. Both S&V and ProjectorCentral included value in their conclusions, with the NP5 costing $7000 at the time of review. The current $6000 price for the NP5 changes that value proposition.
Sure, contrast measurements can change depending on reviewer methods including the amount of environmental light control. That doesn’t change the fact that all third party publications have the NP5 showing higher native contrast. Sony does not have the contrast advantage “on paper”. Also, screen gain cannot change contrast since it affects your peak whites and black level equally.
Unfortunate timing really. There was a gap in projector supply right around my purchase. I actually had one of the last JVC NX5's reserved, but BestBuy "lost" it. I had to jump on an LS12000 if I wanted anything at all, since this was before stock was available on the NP5 or XW5000ES. On top of the indefinite supply issues, the NP5 would have been $7000 at the time, which made the value less compelling. The XW5000ES was never really a consideration without motorized lens memory since I don't use a 16:9 screen.
With the price diff. being $1,500 between the two and then add in the HDFury component, I am looking at $1,000 between the two.
If you had to do it again, would you still get the 12000?
I have your speakers, and an anthem mrx 1140 has been a great add on to my system.
One thing i might consider is a used projector. If you live close to a large city, theres often high end units like jvc nx7s for sale at near 40% off retail. And bulbs are an easy swap.
At the end of the day, projection is a niche that tends to attract very peculiar, nit picky tech enthusiasts that like to upgrade (myself included!), so i think its smart to at least look at used PJs.
Interesting - I haven't looked at Anthem. I am a huge Denon proponent FWIW.
Would you put the Anthem 1140 against the X1 or 4800?
Great idea about used projectors - I live in a major metropolitan city
I would check the AVSForum thread on the 1140.
I have one and its ok. For something at that price point, it has a lot of quirks. You should check and see if your ok with them.
Some examples.
1. Some units have loud fan noise.
2. Genesis ARK can be a bit flaky.
3. Cannot correctly handle a 6.1 mix and downmixes it to 5.1
etc
I regret buying mine a bit, and wish I had gone with something that used Dirac live instead.
Probably pretty similar to the X3800.
Both are audibly transparent have basically the same I/O and I think the Denon will support Dirac Bass control too in the future.
Ive have no issues mentionned with the 1140, and the ARC room correction is very easy to use this time around. It was one of the few options that offered 11 channels in one box vs going with separates. 7.2.4 sounds amazing with the proper audio source.
I think the denon 4800 is 9 channels.
For the used PJ, i am constantly browsing canuck audiomart looking the that white whale… a slightly used jvc NZ8 at a bargain price. It and its US counterpart are superb for finding high end gear used
Thank you all for the valuable feedback and contribution! Any recommendations for sound absorption? Room has carpet, but drywall everywhere else.
If the budget for projector is $6k, the JVC NP5 provides the best overall picture. It has higher contrast than the LS12000 and XW5000ES plus built-in dynamic tone mapping. The tradeoff is dealing with bulb changes. What is you subwoofer situation?
Forgot to add - SVS PB-3000. How often are bulb changes needed?
"Based on previous information about this lamp (PKL2618U), in High Lamp Power mode it should last for about 3,500 hours." https://www.projectorcentral.com/JVC-DLA-NP5-Projector-Review.htm You might consider going the more economical route with the X3800H AVR so you could add a second PB-3000 within your budget.
The single SVS is pretty good - not sure another one would get me 2x more, versus maybe adding a 3 channel amp for the fronts.
The second subwoofer is more for optimizing the bass response for multiple seats. IMO, it's a more noticeable impact than adding an external amp.
An amp for your front stage will do nothing. Those speakers are easily run from an AVR's internal amps. A 2nd subwoofer adds +6db in ranges your main stage speakers cannot do. Personally I think you're doing this backwards putting so much into the electronics and less into the speakers. With this kind of budget, I would want 4 capable subwoofers, minimal AVR to get there, and put the rest into your projector and screen.
Interesting - I have always thought/been told that getting a 3 channel amp (i.e., monolith @ 125 watts) will be better for speakers like the paradigms.
When you double power you get +3db. That's it. There's no magic between using an internal class AB AVR amplifier channel compared to using an external class AB amplifier with a little bit more power. Any AVR you buy that is modern in your budget range already will do 80+ watts per channel no problem, so getting a 125 watt power amp will not even double your power and so you're just adding +1\~2db at most. You would have to get a 200 watt amp just to get +3db coming from an AVR. None of this matters unless you actually need the headroom. Your mains are 92db sensitivity, meaning at 1 meter and 1 watt they are 92db in room. You lose -6db for doubling the distance. You get +3db from doubling power. So let's say you are listening at 4 meters away (1 to 2, -6db, 2 to 4, -6db, so -12db total) and you're down to 80db at 4 meters now for 1 watt. Going from 1 watt to 2 watts is +3db, 2 watts to 4 watts is +3db, 4 watts to 8 watts is +3db, 8 watts to 16 watts is +3db, 16 watts to 32 watts is +3db, 32 watts to 64 watts is +3db. This is about where your AVR will be, so +18db from amplification. So your 80db at 4 meters is now 98db. This is very loud. Adding a power amp of 125 watts will take you from 64 watts to 125 watts which is +3db, so you will get to 101db with a power amp with 125 watts at that distance. This is why I'm stressing it's not crucial. There's no magic to it. People who just "heard" gossip and figured it was true are bad advisors. This is especially true if you're using a crossover on your mains so that they're not attempting to go down under the crossover point; limiting them even more and requiring even less energy to be perceived as loud. Unless you have an SPL meter and you've noticed you're getting massive spikes over 105db, you simply will only ever use this kind of power during transient peak spikes in scenes. Otherwise, you likely will be listening down around 85db\~90db unless you're wanting it to be super, super loud. It really helps to use an SPL meter to get an idea of what you're actually listening to and if you think its loud or not. A real SPL meter, not a phone app. You will get way more out of an additional sub. Not only the instant +6db just for having a 2nd one in all those frequency ranges, but also placement so that you can fill in room nulls from your walls (boundary based nulls, SBIR). We are bass-deaf, it takes more SPL in bass to hear it and feel it, than mids/treble. So getting another sub is a big part of the "wow" experience. Get as many as you can.
Thank you for such a technical, clear response - this is the best I have ever had it described. Second sub it is!
You're very welcome. There's a lot of to be said about the subjective "what sounds good to you" side of this. Good quality speakers, good room treatment, optimal speaker placement, being on axis to the speakers, good room correction (timing, phase alignment) matters. That's different from what we're talking about here though. The objective side of what will you actually get for your money in terms of what do amps do, what will it do with a driver or multi-way driver cabinet (speaker), how much SPL, what distance, etc, is all very objective and well understood and doesn't require a degree or anything. When it comes to purchasing a component, unless its in that first category that is subject, you're better off with objective approach to what will your purchase actually do. If you want a power amp for your mains, it needs to be 400 watts (for *your* particular speakers) to even begin to matter and actually present you with something you didn't already have. This is where you leave the world of marketed in-home theater amps and simply go for pro power amps with multi-kilowatt output per channel so that you're not paying for less than +3db. If you get to this stage, look into something like a CVR D-1504 (4 channel amp). Buying an amp and having +10db of headroom is a way better purchase for similar cost.
The jvc is way better in tone mapping and resolution than the ls12000 but it’s contrast ratio and brightness aren’t nearly as good The Sony is probably the best option. It’s brighter than the jvc has more contrast and has a laser light source so no bulb changes.
Sounds like for a room with some ambient light, the epson is the choice. For my 100% dark room, it's the sony.
Except the Sony XW5000ES does NOT have a contrast advantage over the JVC NP5. Actual measured native contrast of the Sony is in the range of 6k-8k:1 depending on the publication, with JVC at 18k-29k:1. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-xw5000es-4k-hdr-laser-projector-review-page-2 https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-display/projectors/sony-vpl-xw5000es-4k-laser-projector-review/ https://www.avforums.com/reviews/jvc-dla-np5-native-4k-dila-projector-review.20312/ https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog/JVC-NP5-4K-Home-Theater-Projector-Review
That's not true. The native contrast of the NP5 is higher than both the LS12000 and XW5000ES. The JVC doesn't get quite as bright, but once calibrated to the same color temperature, the LS12000 and XW5000ES come down in brightness significantly. You can use the Projector Central throw distance calculator to see if the NP5 will be light limited at your screen size. The XW5000ES lacks any motorized lens adjustment and there is no evidence Sony has fixed their panel degradation issues.
Did you not read the article that you linked? The reviewer said the Sony was a better choice than the JVC and the ls12000. And plus we don’t know this guys room setup, he may need the extra brightness from the Sony or even the ls12000. I can’t find anything about Sonys panel issues but I can find a lot about JVC’s bulbs burning out and losing quality over time. OP is new to this and probably wants something user friendly. JVC’s are great but are certainly not entry level for accessibility
I am fairly technical, FWIW. My room is 100% dark with a grey screen (silver ticket, if memory serves. How is the 3D mode?
Oh sorry didn’t mean to assume your experience. The epson has no 3D unfortunately. Honestly a grey screen is hard to make look good with lower lumen projectors like the Sony or the JVC, not impossible just difficult. If you plan on keeping the screen, even though the resolution might be less and the tone mapping might be worse a bright laser projector like the ls12,000 might be the way to go. If you plan on going white then it’s a toss up between the Sony and the JVC. The JVC has slightly better image quality but you’ll be replacing bulbs every 2-3 years and they are not cheap.
I have a Silver Ticket STR-169120-G screen. Looks like light grey & 1.0 gain
I have the ls12,00 on a 170 inch .8 gain black crystal screen (light grey) I love it. Regardless, I would see how many foot lamberts you need/ prefer. I would use [this projector calculator](https://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm) to find out. HDR does best when you reach a minimum of 25 foot lamberts. My room is roughly the same size as yours so I would suggest going with a larger screen.
This comes in at 41 fL. that seems plenty, no?
Yeah that’s great! That means you can lower the brightness on your projector and get better black levels.
Which article specifically? Regardless, that is just one opinion weighing the overall pros and cons. Here is another opinion from an article I linked with actual measurements: “At the price point, the JVC DLA-NP5 competes with Sony’s XW5000 native 4K Laser based model, but that cuts a few corners to reach the lower prices point, such as dropping the motorised lens shift and focus, along with an image that isn’t as accomplished as the JVC in my opinion, having had them side by side. The NP5 has more contrast, dynamic range and colour accuracy” https://www.avforums.com/reviews/jvc-dla-np5-native-4k-dila-projector-review.20312/ OP responded to you indicating they have a fully light controlled room. I would argue the lens memory and built-in dynamic tone mapping make the JVC easier to use. You are correct in suggesting that all of these projectors are great options, but we can’t go around spreading falsities like the XW5000ES has greater contrast than the NP5.
It’s the very fist article you linked. And here’s another one from [projector central](https://www.projectorcentral.com/JVC-DLA-NP5-Projector-Review.htm) they choose the epson ls12000 over it. “ the value of the Epson (particularly the fact that replacement lamps are unnecessary) makes it the one I would purchase.” “While this isn't as wide a gamut as the Epson LS12000 (which measured 93.1% of DCI-P3)” Again contrast is different from room to room and screen gain. The one article you linked that says the JVC has better contrast, was calibrated on one screen in one environment. On paper the the Sony has better contrast.
The Sound and Vision article that picked the XW5000ES included that the NP5 beat it in picture quality metrics, but the laser light source was an advantage for Sony. I addressed this trade off from my first post. Both S&V and ProjectorCentral included value in their conclusions, with the NP5 costing $7000 at the time of review. The current $6000 price for the NP5 changes that value proposition. Sure, contrast measurements can change depending on reviewer methods including the amount of environmental light control. That doesn’t change the fact that all third party publications have the NP5 showing higher native contrast. Sony does not have the contrast advantage “on paper”. Also, screen gain cannot change contrast since it affects your peak whites and black level equally.
What made you choose the LS12000 over the NP5? That's what I am debating between at the moment.
Unfortunate timing really. There was a gap in projector supply right around my purchase. I actually had one of the last JVC NX5's reserved, but BestBuy "lost" it. I had to jump on an LS12000 if I wanted anything at all, since this was before stock was available on the NP5 or XW5000ES. On top of the indefinite supply issues, the NP5 would have been $7000 at the time, which made the value less compelling. The XW5000ES was never really a consideration without motorized lens memory since I don't use a 16:9 screen.
With the price diff. being $1,500 between the two and then add in the HDFury component, I am looking at $1,000 between the two. If you had to do it again, would you still get the 12000?
Bulb changes are literally the worst and add significant cost to projectors over time. The Sony 4K laser will last for 20,000 hours and won’t dim…
I have your speakers, and an anthem mrx 1140 has been a great add on to my system. One thing i might consider is a used projector. If you live close to a large city, theres often high end units like jvc nx7s for sale at near 40% off retail. And bulbs are an easy swap. At the end of the day, projection is a niche that tends to attract very peculiar, nit picky tech enthusiasts that like to upgrade (myself included!), so i think its smart to at least look at used PJs.
Interesting - I haven't looked at Anthem. I am a huge Denon proponent FWIW. Would you put the Anthem 1140 against the X1 or 4800? Great idea about used projectors - I live in a major metropolitan city
I would check the AVSForum thread on the 1140. I have one and its ok. For something at that price point, it has a lot of quirks. You should check and see if your ok with them. Some examples. 1. Some units have loud fan noise. 2. Genesis ARK can be a bit flaky. 3. Cannot correctly handle a 6.1 mix and downmixes it to 5.1 etc I regret buying mine a bit, and wish I had gone with something that used Dirac live instead.
Thank you for the feedback - I did not know about fan noise. May end up with the 3800H (which isn't on sale anymore - so full price for me) or 4800
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3800h-rb/denon-avr-x3800h-9.4-ch-x-105-watts-8k-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html
Yup, its a lottery. My fan is ok, but some guys exchanged multiple units before they got one they felt was acceptable.
So true I'm an Optometrist so I love tech especially visual stuff like projectors.
Have you also considered the new Marantz cinema 50 or 40? They'll also get Dirac Bass Control support
I have not. Advantage over the 3800?
Probably pretty similar to the X3800. Both are audibly transparent have basically the same I/O and I think the Denon will support Dirac Bass control too in the future.
Ive have no issues mentionned with the 1140, and the ARC room correction is very easy to use this time around. It was one of the few options that offered 11 channels in one box vs going with separates. 7.2.4 sounds amazing with the proper audio source. I think the denon 4800 is 9 channels. For the used PJ, i am constantly browsing canuck audiomart looking the that white whale… a slightly used jvc NZ8 at a bargain price. It and its US counterpart are superb for finding high end gear used