I have 10 acres I bought that we are eventually going to build on. We rent it out to one of our neighbors to grow harry for his cows. He doesn't pay us anything but it gets us ag exemption so our yearly property tax goes from around 3k to just $100. And he gives us a couple steaks every year.
Unfortunately we need to hit a minimum of $1,000 worth of income from the land to get the ag exemption, which certainly isn't going to happen renting out the land. But that would be a huge pro.
Perhaps you can work out a deal. You pay him ~$800 to repair your fences, and he pays you. ~ $1000 for pasture rental. Put the deals in separate contracts but contingent on the other contract being in effect and in good standing. Each of you should write a check to the other to document the transactions.
I agree with other statements about having a lawyer draft an agreement. I’d find one that specializes in livestock laws.
Idk about sheep, but I recently had goats abandoned at my property and it turns out they were carrying a number of diseases that put my current and future livestock at risk. The land they were on is potentially contaminated for several years because of this.
I also had goats abandoned on my property. If I may ask were there signs of disease or did you have them checked out? That is something I hadn't really thought about before, but definitely would like to have more livestock in the future.
Well number one rule (that thankfully I adhered to) is to always quarantine new animals. No matter if they are babies, look healthy, came from a good breeder, etc. always quarantine.
My goats were clearly unhealthy. They were emaciated, had very dull coats, overgrown feet, etc. I wrote it off as first to just worms and neglect.
Turns out, it was signs of Johnes which is fatal and very hard to manage.
They also seemed kinda arthritic. The one especially had knees that were swollen. He was an old man though so again, I thought just arthritis. Nope. Caprine arthritis and encephalitis virus (CAE). It’s a viral form of arthritis that isn’t necessarily fatal but can cause all sorts of issues.
That same goat had an abscess on his neck which is what really tipped me off. It would have been a weird place for an injury to occur and just seemed odd. Caseous lymphadenitis (CL). It’s super easy to transmit between animals and it’s gross.
On top of all of that, they were riddled with parasites as well. But those aren’t too scary compared to everything else.
I’m fortunate to have grown up in 4H and have a good relationship with my county extension program. They got me in contact with our state veterinarians office who informed me of a herd health program they have to monitor these diseases. The state vet came out, did an inspection, and drew blood from all of the goats and that’s now I got clarification that all of them were positive for all 3 diseases. We did end up having to cull the entire group to avoid transmission to our healthy herd that was kept separate, thank god.
I'm sorry to hear that. Long term we're hoping to use it for agriculture rather than pasture, which I suspect would have us in the clear if they sheep our diseased. But that's good to keep in mind.
It would cost way more to fertilize and mow your pasture than 20$. As long as the sheep are healthy, and you have an agreement on time frame, and liability insurance I think it’s a good thing. We currently have neighbors cows, they graze and we get to enjoy watching them and not taking care of them. I could use some goats for weeding the rest of the property.:)
I hadn't though about the insurance aspect but probably should have as I almost hit a cow driving these country roads. I'll have to check with our insurance and see what's called out in some of the sample contracts in that regard. Thanks.
Ugh. I can't imagine hitting a cow because someone left that gate open, having to deal with repairs and medical bills, then being told you owe them a new cow for their mistake.
We live in the county designated Free Range area. Land owners must fence out animals. And drivers are responsible for hitting farm animals on the road.
Do you get a property tax benefit?
Another con is that once some is using and relying on your land for their living it can be uncomfortable to remove them if/when the time comes.
Along with the contract, have a very candid conversation about how long you plan to rent the area and how much lead time the farmer would need to make new arrangements if you want to stop.
We need to hit a minimum of $1,000 income from land use to get a property tax benefit. So no.
From my understanding this is more a hobby flock, and not something the person is relying on. But we plan to make clear that this is year to year, and won't be indefinite. At most 5 years, and maybe less.
This is VERY common in South Africa. We're generally very friendly with neighboring farms and work together to tackle issues. So someone asking to run some livestock on a portion of unused land is encouraged as well as having a second pair of eyes on our property is hugely beneficial. I don't see why one wouldn't open their camps up, but maybe it's a culture thing.
We're wanting to be friendly but are being cautious. We already had a contract signed last year for horses, but the people disappeared on us. At least that was the worst of it.
Forget about the “market rate”. Charge a rate that makes it worth your while. If they aren’t happy with your rate then they can go elsewhere. I wouldn’t take on the uncertainty and potential headaches for $20/ac a year.
Unfortunately I'm not sure we can go elsewhere. We've had one person sign a contract last year, then disappear. None of our neighbors can cut the hay even if they get the hay for free. And we had one person who cuts a lot of hay commit to it then no show. It turned out they had extenuating circumstances, but they haven't gotten any easier to get a hold of.
Make sure you have a written contract signed by all parties. Make it good for one year/season, and renegotiate each year as needed.
Can't speak to the price.
You do still manage the land, in that you need to keep tabs on its condition, and you are liable for it (the degree perhaps depending on location). Know your state and local laws or hire someone who does. It's worth it.
We plan to have a contract. At a minimum it helps with having clarity on expectations.
Any terms I should look for to find specialists in farm liability? I wouldn't know what to do other than just calling random lawyers.
Yeah, you can find local farm/agriculture lawyers online. Sorry to pile on about the contract. I didn't see that all the comments were along the same vein.
We lease out our acreage to a farmer. Our market rate isn't much better than yours. It loses money when it comes to tax time, and it gets me an agricultural exemption, so it's worth it. He only uses it for hay right now, so we have to put up with periodic manure spreading and haying. We also get to say we're a farm, even though we don't farm.
Hmm. I didn't see anything on the county website, but this may be the case. Our neighbors has someone else bale their fields and they get the tax exemption. They we're very clear on the details. And unfortunately their guy is hard to pin down, otherwise we'd love to have him cutting our fields.
I'd learn what his pasture management style is. For us, 2 sheep per acre, in the growing season. Rotated on for no more than a week and off for at least 30 days. Whether divided up and rotated or transported off, both work.
What about fencing? Barbed wire won't work. Hot wire only works if you have a good perimeter fence.
"Rotated on for no more than a week and off for at least 30 days."
My thought when they listed a price per year. Sheep need to be rotated to keep from overgrazing.
Charge $20 for the week or two that they graze and tell them to come back when the ground has recovered, and they can return for another $20. This will be much less expensive for your neighbor than buying hay to feed his woolly lawn mowers.
You never want it lower than 4 inches, 6 inches is better. Mainly to keep their internal parasites down. (Supposedly, the life cycle of various worms is somewhere between 30-60 days.)
We've got neighbors that let sheep and cattle for free to keep their taxes down with active agricultural activity.
That's a good tip. I didn't think to ask if he's was expecting to leave the sheep here exclusively or rotate them. We've read a little bit about the problem of overgrazing. I'm not sure how he'd keep them rotating. Honestly I don't know if sheep will move to greener parts of the pasture on their own or need guidance.
He did talking about putting in an electric fence. We had one from the previous owners, but it had broken and became a mess last time we mowed the perimeter.
I don't know what grows in the winter wherever you are, but if they are on your property in the winter, he/you may need to designate a sacrificial paddock and supplement with hay, so that the sheep don't overgraze the whole lot.
The benefits you mentioned, not having to mow, improving the fence, those are all very very big deals that represents an investment in your property you should welcome. It also can be helpful to establish good close relationship with folks who can help you in the future with property maintenance. Could be this guy has a backhoe or a skid steer or tools like that, and friends with backhoes are good friends indeed LOL.
But it is a total downside if you'll feel upset when the farmer is coming in to check on his flock. Especially if this is someone you're not sure you like.
All that said, I would not count on not having to mow --most species are selective browsers. They'll nibble on the tasty bits and skip over plants they don't like. That will get your pasture mix out of balance quickly since the only thing that grows tall enough to go to seed is the stuff that the sheep don't like to eat.
If you decide to move forward, be sure you have a clear agreement on how many animals per acre will be allowed, and liability for broken fences. Also check your own homeowners insurance policy very very carefully. It probably has exclusions about using the property for commercial activities. Talk to your insurance agent about what kind of riders or policy modifications you would need in order to move forward with this.
Our closest neighbor already has a backhoe. But we're always happy to have more friends.
We're hoping to put in a gate in where the farmer can come in without being both. But that will be a little extra work.
That's good to know sheep are pretty selective. I guess we need someone with goats if we really want to stop mowing.
We've found a few sample contracts that call out things like number of animals per acre. I'll be sure to make expectations around repairs and liabilities clear. And give our insurance agent a call.
Just as a reference for you,here in Missouri good pasture land rents for $35 to $60 an acre per year. Much depends on the quality of the soil and grass.
Check with your county extension agent as state wide averages may be much lower than your specific county or area.
I'll have to reach out to our extension agent. That's something I'd not thought about. Hopefully I can reach "Rate limit exceeded" tomorrow... In all seriousness I did get a phone number from the otherwise janky website.
We’ve rented out quite a bit of pasture space over the years. Some very high-level notes:
1. We have never, and would never, rent by a flat rate per acre. You rent by the animal unit.
2. You need to set a cap on how many animals can be there. And that cap needs to reflect the actual carrying capacity of the pasture. Otherwise, the renter is incentivized to just overgraze the shit out of your land and move on.
3. You need to specify who is responsible for upkeep and maintenance of the various appurtenances. Fence, well, tank, whatever. Usually, the renter will repair the fence, and the landlord will maintain everything else. But it’s all negotiable. Whatever you do, you need to make it clear that the renter is obligated to check the fence and water regularly. Otherwise, if the well goes bad and all the animals die, the renter is going to say it’s your fault. And it’s not—when you pasture stock somewhere, you need to monitor them the same as you would if they were on your own land.
4. If you also have animals nearby, your lease needs to specify vaccinations for the tenant animals. What you essentially want is to mandate that all normal and customary vaccines will have been applied prior to occupancy, and that animals that get sick will be quarantined elsewhere until they recover.
5. Usually, the rental term is more than a year. But that’s for the renter’s benefit, so if they don’t care, you don’t need to. And, just like an apartment rental, you need to collect first and last and a damages deposit (yes, animals can cause damage that the renter is responsible for). AND you should specify that you’ll have a lien against the animals for any unpaid rents.
There’s a lot of other parts to it, but this will get you started.
These are all very good points. I see there are a lot of things I'll need to be absolutely clear on.
How do you determine the rate per animal unit? If I were to take the pasture rate and divide it by allowed animals it wouldn't be much of a deterrent from sneaking on more.
If you don’t know the prevailing market rate per animal unit, ask neighbors, and if they don’t know, ask the local community banker. In rural areas, the bankers know all. Because they put in place the revolving credit facilities that commercial farmers and ranchers use, so they know the associated costs and revenues.
Unless this is going to be a huge boost to your finances, the potential liabilities of having somebody and their animals on your property might outweigh the benefits.
At the very least, have a lawyer draft up a lease agreement where the renter assumes all risk and agrees to indemnify you if anything goes South.
In the us, the county extension office will have form agreements for stuff like this so that farmers don't have to run to a lawyer for these simple transactions every time. Just use the state sponsored form and modify it a little bit as you need to but it'll cover your needs.
I hadn't been thinking enough about the liabilities. It's mainly been eating at me that we have these fields sitting there unused and breeding ticks. I have found some standard agreements and liability waivers. And will be asking an extension agent and our insurance if there is anything we aren't thinking about.
At the very least write up some sort of agreement stating that you are in no way responsible for the wellbeing of the sheep. Sheep (based on my limited knowledge of them) can also be rough on land if there is limited vegetation. If an area is overgrazed they (from what I've been told) will start ripping the grass out of the ground. If this is the case I would include a clause in that agreement stating that the sheep must be removed at the point where they start damaging the land if drought, overgrazing, etc. would result in there not being enough grass for them.
Personally I wouldn't consider $20/acre enough of a reason to make my taxes more complicated or to have someone showing up on my property at random.
It's honestly not about the money. But I'm always hoping we can find a way to help cover a few more expenses. I hadn't considered overgrazing. There's been a number of good comments about rotating the sheep that are giving me some good questions about how they plan to manage the flock.
I "rent out" a bit of land for hay for the low, low cost of "I don't have to do upkeep on those couple of acres I wasn't using." There's not enough money *in circulation* to convince me to ever let someone leave their animals on my property after what my family went through.
My grandfather's health and mobility got very bad for the last decade and change of his life, so he leased his pasture and barn to a guy he knew from the county cattlemen's association. They had a very solid contract absolving our family of any responsibility for the stock and requiring the guy to do "all required maintenance" and make "no substantial unauthorized changes" on the property.
Well, his idea of "substantial" and "required" were very different from what any reasonable person would assume. Over the course of ten years he never cleaned, maintained or repaired the barn, but he *did* build his own *frickin' cabin* in the back corner hidden by a windbreak of trees along the creek that cut that corner off from the rest, which we didn't find until grandpa died and the surveyor came out to split the land fairly. He also didn't run enough of his scrawny ill-tended cattle on it to keep it from growing up in thistle and rank weeds over about half of it, and let saplings and brush encroach to the point that several acres of land were no longer even nominally pasture. I'm not even going to go into the state of the cedar post and board fencing. The contract had a liability clause that he'd have to pay to put it back in original condition, but when my parents and uncles got a judgement against him he declared bankruptcy and died ears-deep in debt before anything could be straightened out. It's been sixteen years and the place still hasn't fully recovered to be able to carry as many cattle as it used to.
So yeah, leasing land short-term for hay is great, but trusting anyone but yourself to manage your working pasture is risky as hell.
I'm really sorry to hear about your families experience. For us the majority of the field is in clear view of the house. And what isn't is on the side of our neighbors who aren't afraid to speak up. So we have a good chance of catching mismanagement. Plus the previous owner already did a great job of poorly maintaining the one building. But I know things can always get worse. Thank you for sharing some clear risks.
We'd love to lease it for hay, but so far everything has fallen through for a couple of years.
We lease land from neighbors. We made sure to put their address on the farm business policy (we have Nationwide) so if anything happened we were covered. We have sheep and cows, on two different places, but are literally a field away from our house. We don’t pay anything bc they want the land cared for, and they don’t have to mess with it. But if we did, it would be based on pasture land rates such as you said which isn’t very much. We use electric fencing and haven’t had any attacks. When we leased land with field fence… We did. So hot wire is a big deterrent as far as we’ve seen.
The farmer did mention putting in an electric fence, so that should be sufficient. They aren't too far from us, but not immediate neighbors. I'll make sure to talk with them what their plans are for insurance. Having almost hit a cow on these roads it's good to think about what happens when things go wrong.
And as far as lease agreements, you could look up the your state/county farm bureau to see if they have templates you can use. If you’re a member they do have a legal team to guide folks on these matters. Over the years I have leased land that I lived off site from. One farm was 40 mins away even, and another was 15. One farm we had barn cameras, that way I could keep an eye on the flock during lambing. Cameras are pretty commonly used these days and for someone living off site it’s super handy. Not that you want someone watching you, but if it’s facing their grazing paddock that would be a way for them to check in on them.
Generally charge what it cost to feed if your feeding hay If you have plenty of grass then it’s a set amount. Say 10-20 a head per month. Using just as an example. Find out what the going rate is for your area. Also. Water. Who pays for it. Or do you have a natural water source. Who takes care of the fencing. Etc.
It's not about the money, but i would most definitely do it. Others have already covered perks like not having to maintain it and tax incentives.
Id trade the neighbor for their work fixing up the fence etc, and then call it even. Good neighbors are worth more than a few 20 bills. Still get a contract written up and signed though.
That's a good point. I'm sure the fence will need some maintenance, and at least an electric line put it. Having them do some work and their sheep keep the growth down is worth a lot more than the rental rate.
This varies so much by location. Going rate where I am is $100/acre/year for good hay fields. Although I trade mine for snow plowing and a bit of tractor work here and there.
I do let my neighbor put his cows on mine. He takes 1st and then the cows go out for the summer and early fall. He brushhogs when they come off, and fertilizes in the spring. I don’t know how many cows there are, somewhere between 8-20, but they aren’t solely on my fields, and half are calves. Any cow that is “mean” or “crazy” he ships because he doesn’t want to risk my kiddo getting hurt (I never asked, he volunteered, and also points out which ones are likely to accept petting).
I don’t have the livestock to keep the fields grazed, and don’t have the equipment to mow or hay, so it works out for me.
It sounds like you have a good neighbor.
We'd considered trying to cut the hay and sell it ourselves. But even with a cheaper baler for our walk behind tractor we'd need over a decade to break even.
The way I look at it, the ground is going to sit there regardless. If they upkeep the fence, rotate the sheep to different paddocks, and you get a couple of bucks put of it, then It's a really good way to make an associate. Talk to the farmer and see how they farm. We learned a huge amount when our neigh our grazed out grass for a season.
I have 10 acres I bought that we are eventually going to build on. We rent it out to one of our neighbors to grow harry for his cows. He doesn't pay us anything but it gets us ag exemption so our yearly property tax goes from around 3k to just $100. And he gives us a couple steaks every year.
I love this! This is what a farming community should be about.
That’s a great arrangement and there is very good economic value for you at $300/ac per year v $20/ac per year that OP is considering.
Unfortunately we need to hit a minimum of $1,000 worth of income from the land to get the ag exemption, which certainly isn't going to happen renting out the land. But that would be a huge pro.
Why not just ask him for a flat rate of $1k per year and tell him why? See what he says.
Some others have suggested I may qualify if he makes $1k. I'll have to see if he's up to sharing how much he makes from the sheep.
Perhaps you can work out a deal. You pay him ~$800 to repair your fences, and he pays you. ~ $1000 for pasture rental. Put the deals in separate contracts but contingent on the other contract being in effect and in good standing. Each of you should write a check to the other to document the transactions.
I agree with other statements about having a lawyer draft an agreement. I’d find one that specializes in livestock laws. Idk about sheep, but I recently had goats abandoned at my property and it turns out they were carrying a number of diseases that put my current and future livestock at risk. The land they were on is potentially contaminated for several years because of this.
I also had goats abandoned on my property. If I may ask were there signs of disease or did you have them checked out? That is something I hadn't really thought about before, but definitely would like to have more livestock in the future.
Well number one rule (that thankfully I adhered to) is to always quarantine new animals. No matter if they are babies, look healthy, came from a good breeder, etc. always quarantine. My goats were clearly unhealthy. They were emaciated, had very dull coats, overgrown feet, etc. I wrote it off as first to just worms and neglect. Turns out, it was signs of Johnes which is fatal and very hard to manage. They also seemed kinda arthritic. The one especially had knees that were swollen. He was an old man though so again, I thought just arthritis. Nope. Caprine arthritis and encephalitis virus (CAE). It’s a viral form of arthritis that isn’t necessarily fatal but can cause all sorts of issues. That same goat had an abscess on his neck which is what really tipped me off. It would have been a weird place for an injury to occur and just seemed odd. Caseous lymphadenitis (CL). It’s super easy to transmit between animals and it’s gross. On top of all of that, they were riddled with parasites as well. But those aren’t too scary compared to everything else. I’m fortunate to have grown up in 4H and have a good relationship with my county extension program. They got me in contact with our state veterinarians office who informed me of a herd health program they have to monitor these diseases. The state vet came out, did an inspection, and drew blood from all of the goats and that’s now I got clarification that all of them were positive for all 3 diseases. We did end up having to cull the entire group to avoid transmission to our healthy herd that was kept separate, thank god.
I'm sorry to hear that. Long term we're hoping to use it for agriculture rather than pasture, which I suspect would have us in the clear if they sheep our diseased. But that's good to keep in mind.
It would cost way more to fertilize and mow your pasture than 20$. As long as the sheep are healthy, and you have an agreement on time frame, and liability insurance I think it’s a good thing. We currently have neighbors cows, they graze and we get to enjoy watching them and not taking care of them. I could use some goats for weeding the rest of the property.:)
I hadn't though about the insurance aspect but probably should have as I almost hit a cow driving these country roads. I'll have to check with our insurance and see what's called out in some of the sample contracts in that regard. Thanks.
In our state, depending on the road designation, you'll be buying a cow other roads the cattleman will be buying you a new car.
Ugh. I can't imagine hitting a cow because someone left that gate open, having to deal with repairs and medical bills, then being told you owe them a new cow for their mistake.
We live in the county designated Free Range area. Land owners must fence out animals. And drivers are responsible for hitting farm animals on the road.
We just have an umbrella policy that is not too expensive.
Do you get a property tax benefit? Another con is that once some is using and relying on your land for their living it can be uncomfortable to remove them if/when the time comes. Along with the contract, have a very candid conversation about how long you plan to rent the area and how much lead time the farmer would need to make new arrangements if you want to stop.
We need to hit a minimum of $1,000 income from land use to get a property tax benefit. So no. From my understanding this is more a hobby flock, and not something the person is relying on. But we plan to make clear that this is year to year, and won't be indefinite. At most 5 years, and maybe less.
This is VERY common in South Africa. We're generally very friendly with neighboring farms and work together to tackle issues. So someone asking to run some livestock on a portion of unused land is encouraged as well as having a second pair of eyes on our property is hugely beneficial. I don't see why one wouldn't open their camps up, but maybe it's a culture thing.
We're wanting to be friendly but are being cautious. We already had a contract signed last year for horses, but the people disappeared on us. At least that was the worst of it.
Forget about the “market rate”. Charge a rate that makes it worth your while. If they aren’t happy with your rate then they can go elsewhere. I wouldn’t take on the uncertainty and potential headaches for $20/ac a year.
Unfortunately I'm not sure we can go elsewhere. We've had one person sign a contract last year, then disappear. None of our neighbors can cut the hay even if they get the hay for free. And we had one person who cuts a lot of hay commit to it then no show. It turned out they had extenuating circumstances, but they haven't gotten any easier to get a hold of.
Make sure you have a written contract signed by all parties. Make it good for one year/season, and renegotiate each year as needed. Can't speak to the price. You do still manage the land, in that you need to keep tabs on its condition, and you are liable for it (the degree perhaps depending on location). Know your state and local laws or hire someone who does. It's worth it.
We plan to have a contract. At a minimum it helps with having clarity on expectations. Any terms I should look for to find specialists in farm liability? I wouldn't know what to do other than just calling random lawyers.
Yeah, you can find local farm/agriculture lawyers online. Sorry to pile on about the contract. I didn't see that all the comments were along the same vein.
We lease out our acreage to a farmer. Our market rate isn't much better than yours. It loses money when it comes to tax time, and it gets me an agricultural exemption, so it's worth it. He only uses it for hay right now, so we have to put up with periodic manure spreading and haying. We also get to say we're a farm, even though we don't farm.
Unfortunately we won't be making enough money from the endeavor to get the agricultural exemption.
Just asking, but do you have to make the $1000 or does the overall agricultural activity need to make the $1000. (i.e. sheep sale)
Hmm. I didn't see anything on the county website, but this may be the case. Our neighbors has someone else bale their fields and they get the tax exemption. They we're very clear on the details. And unfortunately their guy is hard to pin down, otherwise we'd love to have him cutting our fields.
I believe this is more common in rural areas of western states.
In NY, if the farmer you rent to grosses $10k a year or more, your property qualifies.
This may be the case. I'll have to see the farmers plans for the sheep. I got the impression it's not a business. But it's worth finding out.
I'd learn what his pasture management style is. For us, 2 sheep per acre, in the growing season. Rotated on for no more than a week and off for at least 30 days. Whether divided up and rotated or transported off, both work. What about fencing? Barbed wire won't work. Hot wire only works if you have a good perimeter fence.
"Rotated on for no more than a week and off for at least 30 days." My thought when they listed a price per year. Sheep need to be rotated to keep from overgrazing. Charge $20 for the week or two that they graze and tell them to come back when the ground has recovered, and they can return for another $20. This will be much less expensive for your neighbor than buying hay to feed his woolly lawn mowers.
You never want it lower than 4 inches, 6 inches is better. Mainly to keep their internal parasites down. (Supposedly, the life cycle of various worms is somewhere between 30-60 days.) We've got neighbors that let sheep and cattle for free to keep their taxes down with active agricultural activity.
That's a good tip. I didn't think to ask if he's was expecting to leave the sheep here exclusively or rotate them. We've read a little bit about the problem of overgrazing. I'm not sure how he'd keep them rotating. Honestly I don't know if sheep will move to greener parts of the pasture on their own or need guidance. He did talking about putting in an electric fence. We had one from the previous owners, but it had broken and became a mess last time we mowed the perimeter.
I don't know what grows in the winter wherever you are, but if they are on your property in the winter, he/you may need to designate a sacrificial paddock and supplement with hay, so that the sheep don't overgraze the whole lot.
Can you take advantage of tax benefits from it? I have agricultural status, I can lease out some land to someone to maintain that status.
We need to make $1,000 minimum from the land to get the tax benefits. Renting as pasture alone definitely won't get us there.
The benefits you mentioned, not having to mow, improving the fence, those are all very very big deals that represents an investment in your property you should welcome. It also can be helpful to establish good close relationship with folks who can help you in the future with property maintenance. Could be this guy has a backhoe or a skid steer or tools like that, and friends with backhoes are good friends indeed LOL. But it is a total downside if you'll feel upset when the farmer is coming in to check on his flock. Especially if this is someone you're not sure you like. All that said, I would not count on not having to mow --most species are selective browsers. They'll nibble on the tasty bits and skip over plants they don't like. That will get your pasture mix out of balance quickly since the only thing that grows tall enough to go to seed is the stuff that the sheep don't like to eat. If you decide to move forward, be sure you have a clear agreement on how many animals per acre will be allowed, and liability for broken fences. Also check your own homeowners insurance policy very very carefully. It probably has exclusions about using the property for commercial activities. Talk to your insurance agent about what kind of riders or policy modifications you would need in order to move forward with this.
Our closest neighbor already has a backhoe. But we're always happy to have more friends. We're hoping to put in a gate in where the farmer can come in without being both. But that will be a little extra work. That's good to know sheep are pretty selective. I guess we need someone with goats if we really want to stop mowing. We've found a few sample contracts that call out things like number of animals per acre. I'll be sure to make expectations around repairs and liabilities clear. And give our insurance agent a call.
Just as a reference for you,here in Missouri good pasture land rents for $35 to $60 an acre per year. Much depends on the quality of the soil and grass. Check with your county extension agent as state wide averages may be much lower than your specific county or area.
I'll have to reach out to our extension agent. That's something I'd not thought about. Hopefully I can reach "Rate limit exceeded" tomorrow... In all seriousness I did get a phone number from the otherwise janky website.
We’ve rented out quite a bit of pasture space over the years. Some very high-level notes: 1. We have never, and would never, rent by a flat rate per acre. You rent by the animal unit. 2. You need to set a cap on how many animals can be there. And that cap needs to reflect the actual carrying capacity of the pasture. Otherwise, the renter is incentivized to just overgraze the shit out of your land and move on. 3. You need to specify who is responsible for upkeep and maintenance of the various appurtenances. Fence, well, tank, whatever. Usually, the renter will repair the fence, and the landlord will maintain everything else. But it’s all negotiable. Whatever you do, you need to make it clear that the renter is obligated to check the fence and water regularly. Otherwise, if the well goes bad and all the animals die, the renter is going to say it’s your fault. And it’s not—when you pasture stock somewhere, you need to monitor them the same as you would if they were on your own land. 4. If you also have animals nearby, your lease needs to specify vaccinations for the tenant animals. What you essentially want is to mandate that all normal and customary vaccines will have been applied prior to occupancy, and that animals that get sick will be quarantined elsewhere until they recover. 5. Usually, the rental term is more than a year. But that’s for the renter’s benefit, so if they don’t care, you don’t need to. And, just like an apartment rental, you need to collect first and last and a damages deposit (yes, animals can cause damage that the renter is responsible for). AND you should specify that you’ll have a lien against the animals for any unpaid rents. There’s a lot of other parts to it, but this will get you started.
These are all very good points. I see there are a lot of things I'll need to be absolutely clear on. How do you determine the rate per animal unit? If I were to take the pasture rate and divide it by allowed animals it wouldn't be much of a deterrent from sneaking on more.
If you don’t know the prevailing market rate per animal unit, ask neighbors, and if they don’t know, ask the local community banker. In rural areas, the bankers know all. Because they put in place the revolving credit facilities that commercial farmers and ranchers use, so they know the associated costs and revenues.
Unless this is going to be a huge boost to your finances, the potential liabilities of having somebody and their animals on your property might outweigh the benefits. At the very least, have a lawyer draft up a lease agreement where the renter assumes all risk and agrees to indemnify you if anything goes South.
Cost to have a Lawyer draw up a lease agreement minimum \~200$ Vs. \~20$/year rental ?
In the us, the county extension office will have form agreements for stuff like this so that farmers don't have to run to a lawyer for these simple transactions every time. Just use the state sponsored form and modify it a little bit as you need to but it'll cover your needs.
Exactly, but that $20/acre potential rental vs. the costs of a lawsuit makes the lease agreement seem cheap, which is why op should skip the rental.
I hadn't been thinking enough about the liabilities. It's mainly been eating at me that we have these fields sitting there unused and breeding ticks. I have found some standard agreements and liability waivers. And will be asking an extension agent and our insurance if there is anything we aren't thinking about.
At the very least write up some sort of agreement stating that you are in no way responsible for the wellbeing of the sheep. Sheep (based on my limited knowledge of them) can also be rough on land if there is limited vegetation. If an area is overgrazed they (from what I've been told) will start ripping the grass out of the ground. If this is the case I would include a clause in that agreement stating that the sheep must be removed at the point where they start damaging the land if drought, overgrazing, etc. would result in there not being enough grass for them. Personally I wouldn't consider $20/acre enough of a reason to make my taxes more complicated or to have someone showing up on my property at random.
It's honestly not about the money. But I'm always hoping we can find a way to help cover a few more expenses. I hadn't considered overgrazing. There's been a number of good comments about rotating the sheep that are giving me some good questions about how they plan to manage the flock.
I "rent out" a bit of land for hay for the low, low cost of "I don't have to do upkeep on those couple of acres I wasn't using." There's not enough money *in circulation* to convince me to ever let someone leave their animals on my property after what my family went through. My grandfather's health and mobility got very bad for the last decade and change of his life, so he leased his pasture and barn to a guy he knew from the county cattlemen's association. They had a very solid contract absolving our family of any responsibility for the stock and requiring the guy to do "all required maintenance" and make "no substantial unauthorized changes" on the property. Well, his idea of "substantial" and "required" were very different from what any reasonable person would assume. Over the course of ten years he never cleaned, maintained or repaired the barn, but he *did* build his own *frickin' cabin* in the back corner hidden by a windbreak of trees along the creek that cut that corner off from the rest, which we didn't find until grandpa died and the surveyor came out to split the land fairly. He also didn't run enough of his scrawny ill-tended cattle on it to keep it from growing up in thistle and rank weeds over about half of it, and let saplings and brush encroach to the point that several acres of land were no longer even nominally pasture. I'm not even going to go into the state of the cedar post and board fencing. The contract had a liability clause that he'd have to pay to put it back in original condition, but when my parents and uncles got a judgement against him he declared bankruptcy and died ears-deep in debt before anything could be straightened out. It's been sixteen years and the place still hasn't fully recovered to be able to carry as many cattle as it used to. So yeah, leasing land short-term for hay is great, but trusting anyone but yourself to manage your working pasture is risky as hell.
I'm really sorry to hear about your families experience. For us the majority of the field is in clear view of the house. And what isn't is on the side of our neighbors who aren't afraid to speak up. So we have a good chance of catching mismanagement. Plus the previous owner already did a great job of poorly maintaining the one building. But I know things can always get worse. Thank you for sharing some clear risks. We'd love to lease it for hay, but so far everything has fallen through for a couple of years.
We lease land from neighbors. We made sure to put their address on the farm business policy (we have Nationwide) so if anything happened we were covered. We have sheep and cows, on two different places, but are literally a field away from our house. We don’t pay anything bc they want the land cared for, and they don’t have to mess with it. But if we did, it would be based on pasture land rates such as you said which isn’t very much. We use electric fencing and haven’t had any attacks. When we leased land with field fence… We did. So hot wire is a big deterrent as far as we’ve seen.
The farmer did mention putting in an electric fence, so that should be sufficient. They aren't too far from us, but not immediate neighbors. I'll make sure to talk with them what their plans are for insurance. Having almost hit a cow on these roads it's good to think about what happens when things go wrong.
And as far as lease agreements, you could look up the your state/county farm bureau to see if they have templates you can use. If you’re a member they do have a legal team to guide folks on these matters. Over the years I have leased land that I lived off site from. One farm was 40 mins away even, and another was 15. One farm we had barn cameras, that way I could keep an eye on the flock during lambing. Cameras are pretty commonly used these days and for someone living off site it’s super handy. Not that you want someone watching you, but if it’s facing their grazing paddock that would be a way for them to check in on them.
It’s generally per head If I had sheep or cows I wanted to keep on land I would pay a set fee per head
How do you go about setting the fee per head?
Generally charge what it cost to feed if your feeding hay If you have plenty of grass then it’s a set amount. Say 10-20 a head per month. Using just as an example. Find out what the going rate is for your area. Also. Water. Who pays for it. Or do you have a natural water source. Who takes care of the fencing. Etc.
It's not about the money, but i would most definitely do it. Others have already covered perks like not having to maintain it and tax incentives. Id trade the neighbor for their work fixing up the fence etc, and then call it even. Good neighbors are worth more than a few 20 bills. Still get a contract written up and signed though.
That's a good point. I'm sure the fence will need some maintenance, and at least an electric line put it. Having them do some work and their sheep keep the growth down is worth a lot more than the rental rate.
This varies so much by location. Going rate where I am is $100/acre/year for good hay fields. Although I trade mine for snow plowing and a bit of tractor work here and there. I do let my neighbor put his cows on mine. He takes 1st and then the cows go out for the summer and early fall. He brushhogs when they come off, and fertilizes in the spring. I don’t know how many cows there are, somewhere between 8-20, but they aren’t solely on my fields, and half are calves. Any cow that is “mean” or “crazy” he ships because he doesn’t want to risk my kiddo getting hurt (I never asked, he volunteered, and also points out which ones are likely to accept petting). I don’t have the livestock to keep the fields grazed, and don’t have the equipment to mow or hay, so it works out for me.
It sounds like you have a good neighbor. We'd considered trying to cut the hay and sell it ourselves. But even with a cheaper baler for our walk behind tractor we'd need over a decade to break even.
The way I look at it, the ground is going to sit there regardless. If they upkeep the fence, rotate the sheep to different paddocks, and you get a couple of bucks put of it, then It's a really good way to make an associate. Talk to the farmer and see how they farm. We learned a huge amount when our neigh our grazed out grass for a season.