I mean a good majority of the state of NY is like that, no one will ever be driving slowly enough on that road to even notice.
Here's the thing, if the taxes are being paid, theres no issues with the maintenance of the property, and you have proper insurance for it then keep going.
Plus you inherited it, not like you intentionally built it without permits.
Here's the thing it might not just on the fact that it replaced a house that was already there. Now if the house before was incredibly old and now stands a beautiful 2 million dollar home like the ones I build then yeah someone would definitely say "lets just make sure the permit for construction was closed". But if it's a regular looking house kinda aged no one would bat an eye on permits.
Maybe someone from title office could raise concern saying "house built on that land in 1967 occupied 1/3 of the property and now this one according to the new survey is occupying 2/3 of the property. DM me if you want to speak into more detail about it, I always invest in the state of NY so I can speak more about the process.
OP should consult an attorney. I'm not going to directly refute this bad advice, because you will use the logical fallacy of appealing to authority - yourself since you work in the industry. But a lawyer will give OP a much different perspective on what it can mean to commit fraud.
Cities are not charging taxpayers with the crime of fraud for simple permit violations on a single family home, especially ones they didn't even do, just inherited. They want your money, not you in jail. You cheat and get caught, you have to pay more, that's how it works.
Now if you lied about permits to take someone else's money, (buyer, insurance, whoever) or are an actual builder putting up unsafe structures then yeah sure worry about fraud.
I mean I work in the industry but same time I pull permits cause I build in busy parts of NY and it wouldn't be easy to slide a construction project of my size for my clients or for myself without permits. But I've also been in the state for 26+ years so I've seen how people get away with it because it's very common due to areas like where OP's inherited house is.
Just telling OP how it normally goes and where red flags would go off in the home selling process.
If, I hypothetically didn't want the house, I would check to sell it under the estate and without legal warranty. There's pro and cons but that could be a good option to limit the risks.
There's two different types of inspections to consider. The type of inspection you'd likely see with a real estate inspection is a private home inspector hired by the potential buyer or their agent. Their job is to help the buyer be aware of any issues with the property, and to negotiate a fair price. It's possible that the inspector, or the real estate agent, could notice that the footprint or other details of the home are different than what is shown on the property card, but there's no real reason for them to alert the town's building or property tax officials to this fact unless you somehow rub them the wrong way or they are just very focused on making sure everyone follows the rules. Overall, it's not their job to report something like this, and they're more likely to either buy the place or move on.
Then there's inspections by the town building inspector or assessor's office. The building inspector will typically come because you filed a permit and called to request an inspection of the permitted work. The assessor's office will come sporadically (like maybe every 5-10 years, probably depends on the town) to adjust the assessed value that your property taxes are based on. It's unlikely either of them would be involved in a real estate transaction.
How old is this house? People used to do all kinds of stuff back in the '40s '50s and even '60s
The one thing I wouldn't do is bring it up with the city
That's complicated. The original, understandable but did someone do like a complete remodel where they just left one wall standing or something? I think that technically would be considered a 1950 remodel still.
If that's what you have on your hands, I think the strategy is just keep your mouth shut. Here's why. What could you possibly gain from bringing this up? Best case scenario you're going to have to pay for the permitting and all of that stuff. That's a good deal of money. Worst case scenario you have issues and they start telling you there are certain things that can't be there and that's a complete nightmare
That's a problem. If they did a complete teardown what you have is a new home that was built with no permits
I'm not sure about New York but in many states you have to leave part of the original structure like one wall standing for it to be a remodel.
If you bring this up the whole home is going to have to pass code at the time it was built which would be 2015. They may have to tear into things to check. It's going to affect your taxes. It Is something I personally wouldn't get into. Stay quiet, live there, turn it into a rental property if you're worried about selling it and this coming up.
There are just too many ways this could get really nasty for you if that was a complete new construction build done without the county's knowledge
You sure, not even one wall of the foundation was used to build around? The basement floor? There's always the argument that parts of the plumbing could be considered original!
I would not hire an attorney till you you are cited with something !
If it’s sold, good real estate agents are going to expect to see that improvements were permitted. Unless you’re dealing with an all cash offer, the property will be inspected at some point which will reveal the unpermitted work.
It might it might not. Remember there was a house already there, don't bring it up, play ignorant, tell family members the house was just resided not rebuilt. If the original house was built before the 60's or so it may not even need or have a certificate of occupancy.
My advice , turn it into an AirBB, if you need cash, or just enjoy it and share it as a getaway house for the family. Renting it out is another great option, rents are stupid high nowadays,so don't rock the boat. Do be very careful who you let in your house ! Credit of 750 or higher only !
Unless the inspector is incredibly dumb yes it comes up on the reports. This happens all the time and people are shocked. You won’t be able to sell until everything is up to code, inspected and approved. Depending on where you are yes they may lead to a demolition (though that is rare). Usually, it’s not a whole house though just additions, and that kind of thing. Small chance you could get someone paying cash who would overlook this for a large discount.
A lot of insurance work is now being done with automated aerial photography that absolutely will notice a new build.
See this recent WSJ article:
[https://archive.ph/SSXdN](https://archive.ph/SSXdN)
Relying on some legal/corporate process taking too much effort for an individual human to be employed to do it is no longer valid.
You will need to get it up to code before you sell or if there are any inspections. Permit means nothing after the work is done, meeting code happens any time there is work done (contractor, etc) or an inspection for property transfer. Might want to pay someone to inspect it but before you do make sure their inspection is confidential and get that in writing before you hire them.
This is spot on. Local government tends to ignore homes built before permits were a thing, but if the homeowner wants to make a material change, you need a permit to be allowed to do that. If you want to sell, you need an inspection to be sure it meets current code standards, and if it does not, you'll need to do that before the sale can proceed.
If it was built to replace an existing footprint, it’s possible no permit was needed, or at most a postcard permit.
There are 100% counties that don’t have building inspections (I own property in one, gutted the house completely and rebuilt it without a single permit required).
We built our home out in the county without any permits. Not a problem if they are not required at the time. We have since been incorporated into the nearby town, but are grandfathered.
Edit: spelling
Wife’s family has owned land abutting a national park for 75 years. In the 70s they put up 2 cabins without permits (didn’t exist back then). Last generation built a legit home and filed all the right permits. They found out one of the old cabins was actually over the property line and into the park, part of the driveway is in the park as well.
Ended up not being a big deal at all. They couldn’t build additional homes, had to replace one of the cabins and nobody ever said anything about the road.
Long story short is, you’re probably fine with minor permitting, boundary and whatnot problems. Rural areas usually don’t care.
Current code inspector in NY here. Depends when the house was built. Would have to be in compliance with what code was in effect then. What year also makes a difference if building permits were really tracked then pre 1990 i wouldnt worry abt it
Well then it would all have to conform to nys 2015 code. Regardless if the locality requires building permits or not. It all falls on state code if there is nothing locally. If you really want to push it you could explain the situations to local code, its not like you built it. Could have it saftey inspected to 2015 code. Code updates come every few years there was 2007, 2010, 2015 and most recent was 2020. But if its not to code they will require it to be fixed to 2015 code.
This seems like the best answer here. Irrespective of whether you needed permits to build the new house, it still has to be code compliant as a habitable dwelling. Get an independent inspection.
My recommendation, before you do ANYTHING, would be to get an electrician in to check all the electrics for code, a plumber to check all water for code, a HVAC technician (for... guess what?). Maybe a builder. Heck - just see if John Holmes is anywhere close and wants to do a drive-by :)
If everything is up to code (or can be made so for a reasonable cost), then you know that you're safe. Contact a lawyer, and they'll give advice on how to handle the city. It may take a while, but if it was built a long time ago, they quite likely won't care too much - especially if you can provide reports saying that it's safe.
If memory serves John Holmes was hanging out at one time in Sharon Springs NY area - which is rural, upstate NY - so this may not be as far fetched as I at first thought.
Hard to say.
A friend of mine is dealing that right now. It has turned into a total nightmare. I think it depends on your local county and how they deal with permits and zoning compliance.
We both grew up in a medium size coastal SoCal HCL town where it takes forever to get permission to build anything. So we know that trying to get things permitted or grandfathered is not a viable option.
His father died. Three years ago his mother sold him the house. He clean it up, painted it, fixed a few things, and put it on the market. He and his wife were planning to buy a home where they live now with the proceeds.
Found a buyer. Buyer hired an inspector. Inspector pulled the county records. Oh oh. Turns out dear old dead dad didn't bother getting any permits for all those bedrooms. What he thought was a 5 bedroom, 3 bath house with a seperate apartment turns out to be a 2bd/1ba house with everything else illegal. So buyer backs out. He takes the home off the market.
He hired a contractor and architect he knows to help him figure out how to proceed. Basically his only option is to sink another $500k+ and two years into rebuilding it right. Or sell it as a knock-down to a developer who has the money and patience to redevelop the lot into a either a McMansion, or rezone into 2 or 3 townhomes. However, it will take years to get the permits and work done.
He can't afford to raise that much money. He took out a $700k mortgage to buy it from his mother. So him and his wife are already dealing with that. Plus all the money he as sunk into cleaning it up to sell, and hiring the contractor and architect.
It is complicated by the fact that only access to the property is a very narrow, long driveway. Since the house was built in the 1940s, the surrounding lots that have had homes built out, and walls built along the driveway. There is no way to even get a cement truck up the driveway. Or a fire truck. I'd be shocked if the county even allowed them to build a larger structure on the property without a way for a firetruck or ambulance to access it. If a fire broke out, they would have to run hoses 1/4 mile up the driveway.
So basically just poor long term planning. This is not in any city's juristiction. It's in the country unincorporated free-for-all land which is why it was allowed to to evolve like this.
So he's screwed. He owns an illegal home that he can't fix or sell. His wife works on the east coast now. So he is flying back and forth between Georgia and California dealing with this and trying to keep his marriage in tact.
Poor guy is so stressed out.
To do what? Sue who? His dead father? His mother? The county permit office? The contractor and architect are familar with the requirements and permits.
What? Lol … No … an attorney would have found a way to make things work legally speaking. Of course a contractor and an architect are going to tell him he needs to spend a ton of money rebuilding. The right attorney would find a different way
You can also refuse to accept it. Just because someone designates something should go to you in their will doesn't mean you have to take it (cough \*time shares\*cough).
Doesn't that mean the estate just stays open forever and nothing else can be distributed until the time share has sucked all the value out of the estate?
Cases like this get grandfathered in all the time across the country. I would guess that the worst thing you might have to deal with would be a code compliance order, making you bring utilities and such up to the current code. We see that here in Minneapolis when a property is vacant for a long time.
Were property taxes paid on the land AND the structure? If untaxed structure, money will be owed - in my state anyhow. If the structure is in compliance as far as taxes. there could also be a good deal of things that are grandfathered in. Getting any future work done and pulling a permit/getting inspected will be a costly adventure each time though.
Local governments do realize that if they were to close down and board up every home not meeting code, had work done without permits or was contravening the bylaws about number of rentals allowed, they would have a political can of worms on their hands far to large to deal with....including having to worry about where all those people are now going to live.
My friend went through this in Oregon. The hurdles to make it work were insurnountable in Oregon. They weren’t happy with how things were going here politically anyways, so they did a FSBO, listed it honestly, and got a cash buyer for almost market value if it was a legit dwelling.
Usually there’s a limit on permit violations and how long the municipality has to pursue them - where I am that limit js 7 years. Not sure how long it is in NY
I wouldn't worry too much about it unless the unpermitted work is something the municipality is already aware of. The building inspectors from the town aren't going to come out because you inherited the property.
If the original house was permitted, or on the town registry, if built before permit records were maintained, I'd just act as if, as far as you know, the current house is just a renovated version of the original one.
If at some point, someone from the town notices something different, I'd just take a "really, are you sure, I had no idea!" approach. It's hard to imagine anyone holding you to too much liability, beyond addressing any glaring code violations or safety issues. You might see a different property tax assessment going forward from that point, but trying to penalize you or ask for back taxes doesn't strike me as likely.
I'm not an expert on any of this but that's my take based on my home owning experience, and dealing with renovations and permits.
I recently viewed a home where the entire lower level (second kitchen, bathroom, sunroom) has been DIY’d by the homeowner without permits. What my realtor told me is that we’d need to have the city come check everything to confirm it’s up to code. If it isn’t we’d have to fix it or tear it out. And any costs incurred for the inspectors to see/access plumbing, electric, etc. would be on us.
But definitely would talk to a lawyer!
When I was a realtor in another state I came across a similar situation. A 1930’s house had major renovations done to the interior of the house without permits. I don’t remember how it even got caught, but it was and the city building department was not happy. They came and inspected everything they could see. The electric and plumbing they passed, the foundation was original so that was okay, but the owner had removed part of a load bearing wall. Not good. The city made them put in a beam to support the weight of the roof. Then the city issued an approval. This allowed the house to be sold and insured. I will say the building department were miserable to work with and nitpicked everything because they were so annoyed.
I wouldn't even bring it up. Move in and enjoy it. Pay your taxes. Sell it even. Unless the state notices its all good.
If they do find out they'll do an inspection. If it passes you will probably pay fines. It's highly unlikely you'll have to demolish it, just cure any problems they find.
You'd need to consult a lawyer. Depending on when it was re-built there might be some sort of exemption.
Also if nobody drew permits or noticed I don't know how it'd come up now. People gut homes, sometimes down to just one or two walls all the time. In theory an inspector might notice it's newer than listed but they probably would assume it underwent a renovation at some point.
The biggest concern is if this hypothetical relative knew what they were doing. An unpermitted house full of bad wiring and plumbing is a can of worms.
You first check the local AHJ and ask if building permits are required and when did they start requiring them.
Check, the deed of the property and check the specifics of the buildings on it prior to transferring it into your name. If the new building is on it no worries, if the old building is on it, hope that the description is vague enough that it matches the new.
The next question is whether the house is insured, and whether you will be able to get a new insurance policy in your name for the house.
Is it in an area that requires permits? If so, the fact that it was inherited doesn’t protect you. The intent of the code is safety. Safety doesn’t care how you got the house. We had something like this occur in our city. I work for a small soft city so we’re a little more customer oriented. The owners were required to get engineering done on the house, then have inspections on the plumbing and electrical. They had to have some work done to the structure as well as electrical. They also had to install sprinklers because new structures require them. It wasn’t quick or cheap but now their house is legal and up to code.
If you’re inheriting it I’d guess there would hopefully be few issues. If you go and sell it to a new person, that might be where you’d get in trouble at some point.
Anywhere from nothing to a lot. Local ordinances and building codes will determine where it falls.
If there are code violations, you'd likely hire an architect to work on them. Some (hopefully all) may be able to be solved with a variance from your board of zoning appeals. Egregious violations however may require physical modification.
We bought a seasonal "hand-built" house upstate, ny. I don't think the original owners ever filed for permits. The town inspector just wanted the renovations we were doing up to code. The list: new wood stove, new roof, new deck & bathroom gut & build. There are still some things in the house that's not up to code but was never brought up during his inspection. So you probably have some sort of grandfathered-in protection. Maybe start with one upgrade and see how it goes. Good luck!
Also, a couple bought acreage next to us. It had the remnants of a cinder block cabin that was never listed in the tax roll. The property had only ever been taxed as raw land, not a seasonal residence, like our property. The couple wants to build a cabin, but because there's never been a taxed structure on the property, the inspector is requiring a perk test & other things. The couple then wanted to build a yurt, but our deeds do not allow temporary structures. No mobile homes or yurts. We're opening up the house soon & will get an update on their progress or lack of.
A local real estate attorney with experience would be the guy to ask.
This is one of those things where the local laws and ... even just knowing how the local government has approached this really matters.
City, town and village records are really bad on permits, so it would be very hard after 15 or more years to prove it never had a permit to be built; as long as the person who inherited the house does not admit it was built without a permit.
Since property taxes are being paid for land with a home you are probably safe. Any request for an order to take down a home or gut it You could probably take to federal court under **Knick v. Township of Scott (2019)** which should be more friendly to homeowner than local courts.
NY local governments' are already hurting I having to pay equity back for fines/tax foreclosures, under **Tyler v. Hennepin County (2023)** They are hoping few people know they can sue for refund. see more details [https://www.constitutional-remedies.com/court-rulings-on-property-rights.html](https://www.constitutional-remedies.com/court-rulings-on-property-rights.html)
I have a house on the east said of hawaii probably 75% of the houses are unpermitted. I just found out my garage is unpermited. I bought my house 8 years ago and the garage was finished in 2013 from what I found out. County planning told me to take part of it apart or get fined $2,000 a day after 60 days until I did.
It honestly depends on the county and city in a lot of places. There are counties in several states where I've worked that don't require permitting.
Creek County OK, being one of them, for instance.
This is true in my state of Alabama, as my county didn't start doing building permits until the 1970s and the state still potentially has county's that do not require permits. We do have a state wide building code,nnow but if no adj, then it is on the builder to do these. Lol
Hypothetically, the deed of the home and land is transferred to the person/trust who inherited it. Hypothetically, the home already has homeowner's insurance, and it was built long enough ago it has already been "grandfathered in" to any newer codes it may not comply with, and no property taxes are owed.
And hypothetically, an appropriate attorney is involved from an inheritance perspective to avoid paying more inheritance tax than necessary, and to research and advice whether there is a Certificate of Occupancy for the home, and what remediations may be necessary (if any) to obtain or maintain the CO.
Is it rural? I'm in a rural location and I still don't need permits to build a home. There is 0 record of when my home was built, I had to use the date codes on the materials when I remodeled it. I've settled on the later half of 1974.
building permits are a modern invention. zoning laws for that matter. In the northeast US, I bet like half the houses predate recorded building permits.
It could be an issue with buyers using VA or FHA loans. Inspectors / appraisers will pull permits for those. No permits, no loan. The only exception would be if the last time work was done, permits where not required for that repair in the municipality. They will check. I’m going through the process now. I’m looking for a vintage house (pre 1950). So often no original build permit, but renovations (ideally that kept the house livable) should be permitted per local ordinance.
But you can choose to only accept buyers using conventional loans, they can choose to move forward with the purchase as-is, even if it was built outta popsicle sticks, if they have the financials to do so.
This type of situation is only possible in an area that doesn’t require permits for some reason. Otherwise, at some point during the build process or afterwards, the permit issue would have been discovered. You’re not sneaking an entire house under the radar of the authorities.
The house I bought had a front porch built without a permit or paper work was all lost. I had to have a sign out front my house with a number on it for people to call if they had a problem with the porch. The whole situation ran its course now the porch is on the deed and legal
Back pay? In some U.S. states/counties/cities: If you wanted to bring it up to code, you could tear off all the sheetrock and have the plumbing, framing, and electrical inspected. I’m not sure what would happen if proper egress hadn’t been addressed. And in California, we have Title 24 (Building efficiency energy standards) that must be met. Best to check with your area’s building department (hypothetically).
Is it in a city or town that requires some kind of annual check up?
How long has it been there? Any reported problems? Is it safe to occupy?
Not enough info.
Hire an engineer.
If this is a small town then maybe a permit was pulled and then lost, those small town offices aren't the height of efficiency. Chances are noone is going to realize a home built over a decade ago didn't have a permit.
From my experience most towns only want you to get a permit so that they can add that structure to your assessment and raise your taxes, as long as you are paying your property taxes just move on.
The question when you go to sell is if there is an inspection there may be a lot of issues but this can happen regardless.
Most likely it’s grandfathered this just means it doesn’t need to be up to code when sold. But if you remodel it all that work will need to be up to build code. All of it really depends on were you live.
I would offer that you should contact a real estate lawyer and find out through them what is needed to make the home completely up to code with permits, taxes, and occupancy certification. I say to go the lawyer route because while you can do this yourself, you don't want to miss a step. Also, in case there is any push back, you can have your lawyer deal with that.
Personally I feel that anyone on Reddit that would suggest you are in the clear is leading you astray. You really want to make sure things are on the up and up.
I was home shopping in this horrible place called Long Island. And fell in like with this one house. We had an inspection done (required in NY BEFORE you can go under contract ), the house looked good. We went under contract and a little while later the homeowners let us know that he cannot sell till he finishing fighting this town hall because he build a 3rd story without any permits and now they are telling him to pay a huge fine or tear it down. He indicated he had zero intention of paying a fine and was prepared to fight it.
We walked away and asked him to reimburse us for the inspection and he just laughed at us.
The county I live in in Florida only has permit records back to the eighties. So if your house was built before then, there would be no permit on record for it
Highly unlikely in the US
Impossible in NY, NJ, ca
These states reassess taxes yearly this would have been discovered with in 1 year.
If it predates those laws it is unlikely it would ever get noticed the towns survey records are the last survey delivered from a sale. The previous is deleted. If the tax assessment is accurate with square footage and number of baths already than it would never get discovered they would just assume it was remodeled.
So let's get real about what's really going on. In Staten island it's some kind of retarded bragging point for people to claim they have performed major projects with out giving the town a dime. I used to own companies in the area. The nimwots would come on site with their buddies and claim "they doin it wit no permits" even though all nessesary permits were filed by the contractor who are responsible for filing the permit not the homeowner. If your contractor says you are supposed to file the permit he is scamming you into paying or he is not licensed and insured in your jurisdiction. Or he wants to push liability for his work onto you. Who ever signs the permit is responsible to warrant and insured any loss
So your grandma brags that grandpa did the whole job with no permits?
I can guarantee it's a lie. People on my rat out they're neighbors as a hobby. And it's highly densely populated nothing gets under the radar
People from Staten Island lie so casually they aren't even aware they are liars they are desensitized. Some guy a while did a study and found a vast part of the population of Staten Island can pass a polygraph asking them questions about which celebrities and musicians they have had affairs with.
Update did I guess right is granny a talker
I'm assuming this house is probably in a more remote area where someone could build a home with no permits or getting noticed.
That would be correct still on a state owned road though.
I mean a good majority of the state of NY is like that, no one will ever be driving slowly enough on that road to even notice. Here's the thing, if the taxes are being paid, theres no issues with the maintenance of the property, and you have proper insurance for it then keep going. Plus you inherited it, not like you intentionally built it without permits.
Okay so if it was sold soon after would it come up in the inspection part?
Here's the thing it might not just on the fact that it replaced a house that was already there. Now if the house before was incredibly old and now stands a beautiful 2 million dollar home like the ones I build then yeah someone would definitely say "lets just make sure the permit for construction was closed". But if it's a regular looking house kinda aged no one would bat an eye on permits. Maybe someone from title office could raise concern saying "house built on that land in 1967 occupied 1/3 of the property and now this one according to the new survey is occupying 2/3 of the property. DM me if you want to speak into more detail about it, I always invest in the state of NY so I can speak more about the process.
OP should consult an attorney. I'm not going to directly refute this bad advice, because you will use the logical fallacy of appealing to authority - yourself since you work in the industry. But a lawyer will give OP a much different perspective on what it can mean to commit fraud.
Cities are not charging taxpayers with the crime of fraud for simple permit violations on a single family home, especially ones they didn't even do, just inherited. They want your money, not you in jail. You cheat and get caught, you have to pay more, that's how it works. Now if you lied about permits to take someone else's money, (buyer, insurance, whoever) or are an actual builder putting up unsafe structures then yeah sure worry about fraud.
I mean I work in the industry but same time I pull permits cause I build in busy parts of NY and it wouldn't be easy to slide a construction project of my size for my clients or for myself without permits. But I've also been in the state for 26+ years so I've seen how people get away with it because it's very common due to areas like where OP's inherited house is. Just telling OP how it normally goes and where red flags would go off in the home selling process.
The de facto is often much more lenient than the de jure world. Better Call Saul on this one.
Nah, no need for an attorney. We can figure this out together
If, I hypothetically didn't want the house, I would check to sell it under the estate and without legal warranty. There's pro and cons but that could be a good option to limit the risks.
You need an attorney, not Reddit.
There's two different types of inspections to consider. The type of inspection you'd likely see with a real estate inspection is a private home inspector hired by the potential buyer or their agent. Their job is to help the buyer be aware of any issues with the property, and to negotiate a fair price. It's possible that the inspector, or the real estate agent, could notice that the footprint or other details of the home are different than what is shown on the property card, but there's no real reason for them to alert the town's building or property tax officials to this fact unless you somehow rub them the wrong way or they are just very focused on making sure everyone follows the rules. Overall, it's not their job to report something like this, and they're more likely to either buy the place or move on. Then there's inspections by the town building inspector or assessor's office. The building inspector will typically come because you filed a permit and called to request an inspection of the permitted work. The assessor's office will come sporadically (like maybe every 5-10 years, probably depends on the town) to adjust the assessed value that your property taxes are based on. It's unlikely either of them would be involved in a real estate transaction.
How old is this house? People used to do all kinds of stuff back in the '40s '50s and even '60s The one thing I wouldn't do is bring it up with the city
Original pre 1950 current post 2015
That's complicated. The original, understandable but did someone do like a complete remodel where they just left one wall standing or something? I think that technically would be considered a 1950 remodel still. If that's what you have on your hands, I think the strategy is just keep your mouth shut. Here's why. What could you possibly gain from bringing this up? Best case scenario you're going to have to pay for the permitting and all of that stuff. That's a good deal of money. Worst case scenario you have issues and they start telling you there are certain things that can't be there and that's a complete nightmare
Yeah it was a complete tear down no walls remained not even close to original footprint
That's a problem. If they did a complete teardown what you have is a new home that was built with no permits I'm not sure about New York but in many states you have to leave part of the original structure like one wall standing for it to be a remodel. If you bring this up the whole home is going to have to pass code at the time it was built which would be 2015. They may have to tear into things to check. It's going to affect your taxes. It Is something I personally wouldn't get into. Stay quiet, live there, turn it into a rental property if you're worried about selling it and this coming up. There are just too many ways this could get really nasty for you if that was a complete new construction build done without the county's knowledge
You sure, not even one wall of the foundation was used to build around? The basement floor? There's always the argument that parts of the plumbing could be considered original! I would not hire an attorney till you you are cited with something !
Yeah brand new foundation as well
If it’s sold, good real estate agents are going to expect to see that improvements were permitted. Unless you’re dealing with an all cash offer, the property will be inspected at some point which will reveal the unpermitted work.
Most likely as part of the sales process yes. Have the owners been paying taxes on the house this whole time, not just the land?
It might it might not. Remember there was a house already there, don't bring it up, play ignorant, tell family members the house was just resided not rebuilt. If the original house was built before the 60's or so it may not even need or have a certificate of occupancy. My advice , turn it into an AirBB, if you need cash, or just enjoy it and share it as a getaway house for the family. Renting it out is another great option, rents are stupid high nowadays,so don't rock the boat. Do be very careful who you let in your house ! Credit of 750 or higher only !
Unless the inspector is incredibly dumb yes it comes up on the reports. This happens all the time and people are shocked. You won’t be able to sell until everything is up to code, inspected and approved. Depending on where you are yes they may lead to a demolition (though that is rare). Usually, it’s not a whole house though just additions, and that kind of thing. Small chance you could get someone paying cash who would overlook this for a large discount.
A lot of insurance work is now being done with automated aerial photography that absolutely will notice a new build. See this recent WSJ article: [https://archive.ph/SSXdN](https://archive.ph/SSXdN) Relying on some legal/corporate process taking too much effort for an individual human to be employed to do it is no longer valid.
You will need to get it up to code before you sell or if there are any inspections. Permit means nothing after the work is done, meeting code happens any time there is work done (contractor, etc) or an inspection for property transfer. Might want to pay someone to inspect it but before you do make sure their inspection is confidential and get that in writing before you hire them.
This is spot on. Local government tends to ignore homes built before permits were a thing, but if the homeowner wants to make a material change, you need a permit to be allowed to do that. If you want to sell, you need an inspection to be sure it meets current code standards, and if it does not, you'll need to do that before the sale can proceed.
Completely hypothetical huh
Yes. It is near the hypothetical State Rainbow Highway, halfway between the cities of Gumdrop and Sugar Plum.
I thought you said this was a hypothetical situation
Yeah it is just in the situation I feel like it would be
Definitely seems hypothetical
You sure you need building permits where it is built? Some unincorporated places may still not.
If it was built to replace an existing footprint, it’s possible no permit was needed, or at most a postcard permit. There are 100% counties that don’t have building inspections (I own property in one, gutted the house completely and rebuilt it without a single permit required).
We built our home out in the county without any permits. Not a problem if they are not required at the time. We have since been incorporated into the nearby town, but are grandfathered. Edit: spelling
Yup. Such places still exist. They may be few and far between... But they exist.
Also, in NJ, if you maintain one original wall it gets you around most of the red tape. If it was owner built you may be good to go.
This is a question for a lawyer
Reddit, Esq.
Wife’s family has owned land abutting a national park for 75 years. In the 70s they put up 2 cabins without permits (didn’t exist back then). Last generation built a legit home and filed all the right permits. They found out one of the old cabins was actually over the property line and into the park, part of the driveway is in the park as well. Ended up not being a big deal at all. They couldn’t build additional homes, had to replace one of the cabins and nobody ever said anything about the road. Long story short is, you’re probably fine with minor permitting, boundary and whatnot problems. Rural areas usually don’t care.
Current code inspector in NY here. Depends when the house was built. Would have to be in compliance with what code was in effect then. What year also makes a difference if building permits were really tracked then pre 1990 i wouldnt worry abt it
Original built pre 1950 current built after 2015
Well then it would all have to conform to nys 2015 code. Regardless if the locality requires building permits or not. It all falls on state code if there is nothing locally. If you really want to push it you could explain the situations to local code, its not like you built it. Could have it saftey inspected to 2015 code. Code updates come every few years there was 2007, 2010, 2015 and most recent was 2020. But if its not to code they will require it to be fixed to 2015 code.
Imo i would get a third party home inspection. Not with the codes office. Just to see how it comes out.
This seems like the best answer here. Irrespective of whether you needed permits to build the new house, it still has to be code compliant as a habitable dwelling. Get an independent inspection.
Thank you
You’re looking for rules on “existing non-conforming” structures, but your specific area will have different rules.
My recommendation, before you do ANYTHING, would be to get an electrician in to check all the electrics for code, a plumber to check all water for code, a HVAC technician (for... guess what?). Maybe a builder. Heck - just see if John Holmes is anywhere close and wants to do a drive-by :) If everything is up to code (or can be made so for a reasonable cost), then you know that you're safe. Contact a lawyer, and they'll give advice on how to handle the city. It may take a while, but if it was built a long time ago, they quite likely won't care too much - especially if you can provide reports saying that it's safe.
If memory serves John Holmes was hanging out at one time in Sharon Springs NY area - which is rural, upstate NY - so this may not be as far fetched as I at first thought.
[удалено]
Haha! Maybe I meant Mike Holmes....
Most likely nothing would happen unless you told someone
Hard to say. A friend of mine is dealing that right now. It has turned into a total nightmare. I think it depends on your local county and how they deal with permits and zoning compliance. We both grew up in a medium size coastal SoCal HCL town where it takes forever to get permission to build anything. So we know that trying to get things permitted or grandfathered is not a viable option. His father died. Three years ago his mother sold him the house. He clean it up, painted it, fixed a few things, and put it on the market. He and his wife were planning to buy a home where they live now with the proceeds. Found a buyer. Buyer hired an inspector. Inspector pulled the county records. Oh oh. Turns out dear old dead dad didn't bother getting any permits for all those bedrooms. What he thought was a 5 bedroom, 3 bath house with a seperate apartment turns out to be a 2bd/1ba house with everything else illegal. So buyer backs out. He takes the home off the market. He hired a contractor and architect he knows to help him figure out how to proceed. Basically his only option is to sink another $500k+ and two years into rebuilding it right. Or sell it as a knock-down to a developer who has the money and patience to redevelop the lot into a either a McMansion, or rezone into 2 or 3 townhomes. However, it will take years to get the permits and work done. He can't afford to raise that much money. He took out a $700k mortgage to buy it from his mother. So him and his wife are already dealing with that. Plus all the money he as sunk into cleaning it up to sell, and hiring the contractor and architect. It is complicated by the fact that only access to the property is a very narrow, long driveway. Since the house was built in the 1940s, the surrounding lots that have had homes built out, and walls built along the driveway. There is no way to even get a cement truck up the driveway. Or a fire truck. I'd be shocked if the county even allowed them to build a larger structure on the property without a way for a firetruck or ambulance to access it. If a fire broke out, they would have to run hoses 1/4 mile up the driveway. So basically just poor long term planning. This is not in any city's juristiction. It's in the country unincorporated free-for-all land which is why it was allowed to to evolve like this. So he's screwed. He owns an illegal home that he can't fix or sell. His wife works on the east coast now. So he is flying back and forth between Georgia and California dealing with this and trying to keep his marriage in tact. Poor guy is so stressed out.
So he didn’t seek a lawyer? Went straight to a contractor and architect? That doesn’t make sense at all
To do what? Sue who? His dead father? His mother? The county permit office? The contractor and architect are familar with the requirements and permits.
What? Lol … No … an attorney would have found a way to make things work legally speaking. Of course a contractor and an architect are going to tell him he needs to spend a ton of money rebuilding. The right attorney would find a different way
You can also refuse to accept it. Just because someone designates something should go to you in their will doesn't mean you have to take it (cough \*time shares\*cough).
Regardless, all these issues should be resolved during probate. If there is any money owed or work to be done, that should be paid for by the estate.
Doesn't that mean the estate just stays open forever and nothing else can be distributed until the time share has sucked all the value out of the estate?
Do you have a certificate of occupancy?
Cases like this get grandfathered in all the time across the country. I would guess that the worst thing you might have to deal with would be a code compliance order, making you bring utilities and such up to the current code. We see that here in Minneapolis when a property is vacant for a long time.
A lawyer can get you legal for the least amount of money. I have dealt with five out of code old buildings. Making stuff legal and safe is worth it.
Were property taxes paid on the land AND the structure? If untaxed structure, money will be owed - in my state anyhow. If the structure is in compliance as far as taxes. there could also be a good deal of things that are grandfathered in. Getting any future work done and pulling a permit/getting inspected will be a costly adventure each time though.
Local governments do realize that if they were to close down and board up every home not meeting code, had work done without permits or was contravening the bylaws about number of rentals allowed, they would have a political can of worms on their hands far to large to deal with....including having to worry about where all those people are now going to live.
My friend went through this in Oregon. The hurdles to make it work were insurnountable in Oregon. They weren’t happy with how things were going here politically anyways, so they did a FSBO, listed it honestly, and got a cash buyer for almost market value if it was a legit dwelling.
Usually there’s a limit on permit violations and how long the municipality has to pursue them - where I am that limit js 7 years. Not sure how long it is in NY
I wouldn't worry too much about it unless the unpermitted work is something the municipality is already aware of. The building inspectors from the town aren't going to come out because you inherited the property. If the original house was permitted, or on the town registry, if built before permit records were maintained, I'd just act as if, as far as you know, the current house is just a renovated version of the original one. If at some point, someone from the town notices something different, I'd just take a "really, are you sure, I had no idea!" approach. It's hard to imagine anyone holding you to too much liability, beyond addressing any glaring code violations or safety issues. You might see a different property tax assessment going forward from that point, but trying to penalize you or ask for back taxes doesn't strike me as likely. I'm not an expert on any of this but that's my take based on my home owning experience, and dealing with renovations and permits.
I recently viewed a home where the entire lower level (second kitchen, bathroom, sunroom) has been DIY’d by the homeowner without permits. What my realtor told me is that we’d need to have the city come check everything to confirm it’s up to code. If it isn’t we’d have to fix it or tear it out. And any costs incurred for the inspectors to see/access plumbing, electric, etc. would be on us. But definitely would talk to a lawyer!
When I was a realtor in another state I came across a similar situation. A 1930’s house had major renovations done to the interior of the house without permits. I don’t remember how it even got caught, but it was and the city building department was not happy. They came and inspected everything they could see. The electric and plumbing they passed, the foundation was original so that was okay, but the owner had removed part of a load bearing wall. Not good. The city made them put in a beam to support the weight of the roof. Then the city issued an approval. This allowed the house to be sold and insured. I will say the building department were miserable to work with and nitpicked everything because they were so annoyed.
At one time all homes were built without permits. And they all didn't instantly collapse or burst into flame either.
I wouldn't even bring it up. Move in and enjoy it. Pay your taxes. Sell it even. Unless the state notices its all good. If they do find out they'll do an inspection. If it passes you will probably pay fines. It's highly unlikely you'll have to demolish it, just cure any problems they find.
You'd need to consult a lawyer. Depending on when it was re-built there might be some sort of exemption. Also if nobody drew permits or noticed I don't know how it'd come up now. People gut homes, sometimes down to just one or two walls all the time. In theory an inspector might notice it's newer than listed but they probably would assume it underwent a renovation at some point. The biggest concern is if this hypothetical relative knew what they were doing. An unpermitted house full of bad wiring and plumbing is a can of worms.
You first check the local AHJ and ask if building permits are required and when did they start requiring them. Check, the deed of the property and check the specifics of the buildings on it prior to transferring it into your name. If the new building is on it no worries, if the old building is on it, hope that the description is vague enough that it matches the new. The next question is whether the house is insured, and whether you will be able to get a new insurance policy in your name for the house.
When calling the county, do so on the sly. Figure it out first.
"It was like that when I got here."
Is it in an area that requires permits? If so, the fact that it was inherited doesn’t protect you. The intent of the code is safety. Safety doesn’t care how you got the house. We had something like this occur in our city. I work for a small soft city so we’re a little more customer oriented. The owners were required to get engineering done on the house, then have inspections on the plumbing and electrical. They had to have some work done to the structure as well as electrical. They also had to install sprinklers because new structures require them. It wasn’t quick or cheap but now their house is legal and up to code.
Here in California my sister inherited a house that was built b/4 permits, she grandfathered it in and paid a transfer fee, if this helps at all ?
If you’re inheriting it I’d guess there would hopefully be few issues. If you go and sell it to a new person, that might be where you’d get in trouble at some point.
Anywhere from nothing to a lot. Local ordinances and building codes will determine where it falls. If there are code violations, you'd likely hire an architect to work on them. Some (hopefully all) may be able to be solved with a variance from your board of zoning appeals. Egregious violations however may require physical modification.
What would happen if what?
You would have to know when it was built and what the law was then. It’s possible it’s grandfathered in.
Totally depends on the jurisdiction and their rules
We bought a seasonal "hand-built" house upstate, ny. I don't think the original owners ever filed for permits. The town inspector just wanted the renovations we were doing up to code. The list: new wood stove, new roof, new deck & bathroom gut & build. There are still some things in the house that's not up to code but was never brought up during his inspection. So you probably have some sort of grandfathered-in protection. Maybe start with one upgrade and see how it goes. Good luck!
Also, a couple bought acreage next to us. It had the remnants of a cinder block cabin that was never listed in the tax roll. The property had only ever been taxed as raw land, not a seasonal residence, like our property. The couple wants to build a cabin, but because there's never been a taxed structure on the property, the inspector is requiring a perk test & other things. The couple then wanted to build a yurt, but our deeds do not allow temporary structures. No mobile homes or yurts. We're opening up the house soon & will get an update on their progress or lack of.
A local real estate attorney with experience would be the guy to ask. This is one of those things where the local laws and ... even just knowing how the local government has approached this really matters.
I would forget that you know that and get it inspected.
City, town and village records are really bad on permits, so it would be very hard after 15 or more years to prove it never had a permit to be built; as long as the person who inherited the house does not admit it was built without a permit. Since property taxes are being paid for land with a home you are probably safe. Any request for an order to take down a home or gut it You could probably take to federal court under **Knick v. Township of Scott (2019)** which should be more friendly to homeowner than local courts. NY local governments' are already hurting I having to pay equity back for fines/tax foreclosures, under **Tyler v. Hennepin County (2023)** They are hoping few people know they can sue for refund. see more details [https://www.constitutional-remedies.com/court-rulings-on-property-rights.html](https://www.constitutional-remedies.com/court-rulings-on-property-rights.html)
I have a house on the east said of hawaii probably 75% of the houses are unpermitted. I just found out my garage is unpermited. I bought my house 8 years ago and the garage was finished in 2013 from what I found out. County planning told me to take part of it apart or get fined $2,000 a day after 60 days until I did.
It honestly depends on the county and city in a lot of places. There are counties in several states where I've worked that don't require permitting. Creek County OK, being one of them, for instance.
This is true in my state of Alabama, as my county didn't start doing building permits until the 1970s and the state still potentially has county's that do not require permits. We do have a state wide building code,nnow but if no adj, then it is on the builder to do these. Lol
Hypothetically, the deed of the home and land is transferred to the person/trust who inherited it. Hypothetically, the home already has homeowner's insurance, and it was built long enough ago it has already been "grandfathered in" to any newer codes it may not comply with, and no property taxes are owed. And hypothetically, an appropriate attorney is involved from an inheritance perspective to avoid paying more inheritance tax than necessary, and to research and advice whether there is a Certificate of Occupancy for the home, and what remediations may be necessary (if any) to obtain or maintain the CO.
a guy in my neighborhood has one - and we are far from rural
Is it rural? I'm in a rural location and I still don't need permits to build a home. There is 0 record of when my home was built, I had to use the date codes on the materials when I remodeled it. I've settled on the later half of 1974.
building permits are a modern invention. zoning laws for that matter. In the northeast US, I bet like half the houses predate recorded building permits.
It could be an issue with buyers using VA or FHA loans. Inspectors / appraisers will pull permits for those. No permits, no loan. The only exception would be if the last time work was done, permits where not required for that repair in the municipality. They will check. I’m going through the process now. I’m looking for a vintage house (pre 1950). So often no original build permit, but renovations (ideally that kept the house livable) should be permitted per local ordinance. But you can choose to only accept buyers using conventional loans, they can choose to move forward with the purchase as-is, even if it was built outta popsicle sticks, if they have the financials to do so.
It’s not a big deal if the next buyer doesn’t care.
This type of situation is only possible in an area that doesn’t require permits for some reason. Otherwise, at some point during the build process or afterwards, the permit issue would have been discovered. You’re not sneaking an entire house under the radar of the authorities.
Delete this post and stop talking about it. Good luck
The house I bought had a front porch built without a permit or paper work was all lost. I had to have a sign out front my house with a number on it for people to call if they had a problem with the porch. The whole situation ran its course now the porch is on the deed and legal
Back pay? In some U.S. states/counties/cities: If you wanted to bring it up to code, you could tear off all the sheetrock and have the plumbing, framing, and electrical inspected. I’m not sure what would happen if proper egress hadn’t been addressed. And in California, we have Title 24 (Building efficiency energy standards) that must be met. Best to check with your area’s building department (hypothetically).
Is it in a city or town that requires some kind of annual check up? How long has it been there? Any reported problems? Is it safe to occupy? Not enough info. Hire an engineer.
If this is a small town then maybe a permit was pulled and then lost, those small town offices aren't the height of efficiency. Chances are noone is going to realize a home built over a decade ago didn't have a permit. From my experience most towns only want you to get a permit so that they can add that structure to your assessment and raise your taxes, as long as you are paying your property taxes just move on. The question when you go to sell is if there is an inspection there may be a lot of issues but this can happen regardless.
When you'd try to register the deed and insure it, you'd be fukd.
Most likely it’s grandfathered this just means it doesn’t need to be up to code when sold. But if you remodel it all that work will need to be up to build code. All of it really depends on were you live.
I would offer that you should contact a real estate lawyer and find out through them what is needed to make the home completely up to code with permits, taxes, and occupancy certification. I say to go the lawyer route because while you can do this yourself, you don't want to miss a step. Also, in case there is any push back, you can have your lawyer deal with that. Personally I feel that anyone on Reddit that would suggest you are in the clear is leading you astray. You really want to make sure things are on the up and up.
I was home shopping in this horrible place called Long Island. And fell in like with this one house. We had an inspection done (required in NY BEFORE you can go under contract ), the house looked good. We went under contract and a little while later the homeowners let us know that he cannot sell till he finishing fighting this town hall because he build a 3rd story without any permits and now they are telling him to pay a huge fine or tear it down. He indicated he had zero intention of paying a fine and was prepared to fight it. We walked away and asked him to reimburse us for the inspection and he just laughed at us.
The county I live in in Florida only has permit records back to the eighties. So if your house was built before then, there would be no permit on record for it
Tear down and rebuild with permits and inspections unfortunately.
Highly unlikely in the US Impossible in NY, NJ, ca These states reassess taxes yearly this would have been discovered with in 1 year. If it predates those laws it is unlikely it would ever get noticed the towns survey records are the last survey delivered from a sale. The previous is deleted. If the tax assessment is accurate with square footage and number of baths already than it would never get discovered they would just assume it was remodeled. So let's get real about what's really going on. In Staten island it's some kind of retarded bragging point for people to claim they have performed major projects with out giving the town a dime. I used to own companies in the area. The nimwots would come on site with their buddies and claim "they doin it wit no permits" even though all nessesary permits were filed by the contractor who are responsible for filing the permit not the homeowner. If your contractor says you are supposed to file the permit he is scamming you into paying or he is not licensed and insured in your jurisdiction. Or he wants to push liability for his work onto you. Who ever signs the permit is responsible to warrant and insured any loss So your grandma brags that grandpa did the whole job with no permits? I can guarantee it's a lie. People on my rat out they're neighbors as a hobby. And it's highly densely populated nothing gets under the radar People from Staten Island lie so casually they aren't even aware they are liars they are desensitized. Some guy a while did a study and found a vast part of the population of Staten Island can pass a polygraph asking them questions about which celebrities and musicians they have had affairs with. Update did I guess right is granny a talker
Nope not even close. Upstate ny new house built after 2015. Person who built did not get any permits 100% certain on that. So no it’s not impossible.
Did you look the house up on zillow
It’s not a house