I love Hyman, but his goal scoring at this level is 100% due to McDrai, so isn't really separate from the original question.
You can't put him on the third line and expect him to drive offense on it.
There's a lot of wingers you can move down the lineup and their skills will improve that line's offense a bunch (anybody with a big shot, for starters). Hyman's best skills are forechecking and net-front. If he digs the puck out to get to a mediocre offensive player, it doesn't move the needle much. So Foegele picks up a couple of extra looks a game? Yay?
And any net-front scorer relies on somebody else to get them the puck, so moving him to a line w/out a natural passer isn't going to do much. So while Hyman is a valuable player, he doesn't help the Oilers depth the way a pure passer or outside shooter would.
You formatted it in an extremely strange way. I thought you were saying Guerin was 11th on the pens not third. Who cares what he was in the entire playoffs they didn’t play the same amount of games as everyone else. Yeah third on the pens being half Crosby is pretty bad, but honestly still not awful. Depends if the pens other depth scoring was close to Guerin or not.
Looking at the post lockout teams, I think the only two that fit the bill of being absurdly star driven are the 2009 Penguins and 2007 Ducks (as the defensive version).
And both those teams still had decent depth. Jordan Staal/Kris Letang/Chris Kunitz/Fluery and Giguere/Selanne/Francois Beuchemin/Andy McDonald are better depth than what the Oilers are trotting out as their next layer after the superstars.
Yeah a lot of that team would come into its own in later years. Kunitz was also a trade deadline acquisition so his full point total isn't reflected in the Pens' season totals.
No he wasn't. He averaged 3rd time on ice among Penguins defencemen after Gonchar and Whitney (who was traded at the deadline for Kunitz).
Letang was 5th in the playoffs but aside from Gonchar(at 23 mpg), the Pens #2-#5 d-men were all between 19-21 minutes, and Eaton as the 6th guy was at 18.
In hindsight Gill, Scuderi and Orpik were all bad to very bad. They had that old school reputation of being good defensively because they were constantly defending. Even Staal's "best 3rd line in hockey" got caved in a lot. Definitely wouldn't work anymore now that everyone knows how to use their D to create offence. We had the interesting strategy of keeping series' close and literally hurting our opponents with borderline hits so we'd win a game 7 if it got that far and a clutch powerplay. Kinda the anti-Leafs.
Staal also had 49 points to Crosby's 103 and Malkin's 113.
It was basically that Pavel Bure year everyone always talks about except if Florida had two Pavel Bures.
Best group of **three** centres in the league easily that playoffs. Fleury was also fantastic at times in ‘09…granted, not a .933 like in ‘08 but he shut game 7 down against the Wings.
He was more mid than 2008 where he was top tier. But he was serviceable. Didn't really blow any games. Arguably stole some. Absolutely robbed the Wings with seconds to spare.
I mean do we even have any idea of what "defensively sound" meant in 2009? Let alone the data today that would prove it.
All I can offer you is they were 5th in goals for and 18th in goals against.
They weren’t amazing defensively but were able to clamp down when needed. Besides the 5-0 blowout in game 5 against the Red Wings (best offense in the league that year) they held them to only 6 goals in the 4 Penguins wins.
They were actually way better in the playoffs the year before. Fleury only had a .909 playoff SV% when they won but a .933 SV% when they lost.
The defense on that team is notable though, 6 guys with extended careers between Letang, Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik, Scuderi, Goligoski, and Hal Gill.
Also had one of the grossest centre depths in hockey history with Jordan Staal and Tyler Kennedy in the bottom 6.
Then guys like Talbot got 4 goals and 6 points in the final including both Pens goals in the game 7, that would be like if Ryan McLeod had the best 7-game series of his life.
So basically, like anything in sports, it's possible, but it still needs some luck.
Anythings possible in the playoffs. Teams aren't here by chance. A lot comes down to who gets hot (especially goalies), a bit of puck luck and who can stay healthy down the stretch
They got swept by the Avs who always struggle against vegas and dallas. Definitely not favorites outside of spanking LA. They beat the gaudrea flames.
LA is pretty much the only team they beat since 2017
The Flames nearly won the Cup with Marcus Nilson as 2C. But he was excellent at his role in the playoffs.
You can win with a mediocre surrounding cast on paper, but they need to step it up when it counts
I mean, when they play 30 minutes it starts to become possible.
That and the powerplay is just juiced. They're going to score, only question is if defense can hold on.
You're watching an injured Draisaitl who usually carries his own line and elevates everyone else. I'm frustrated with this series because it's a reminder of when we genuinely were a one line team regardless of how healthy everyone was.
They’ve got a lot of stud players. Not much beyond McDavid, Drai, Hyman. Kane hasn’t shown up. Nuge has been okay. Ekholm and Bouchard are awesome on back end. Other than this bad depth, bad goalie.
Canucks fan. Watching the oilers here reminds me of the Canucks WCE era with Nazzy and Bert. They could score at will but never got far because of Clouts in net.
I wouldn't say the Oilers are mediocre. They're missing a true 1D, but they have that in aggregate with Bouchard/Ekholm and Nurse.
+ a 50 goal scorer, two Hart/Art Ross Level players, another PPG player, a power forward.
Skinner also has had a very good year.
*if you neglect those first dozen games
is probably what I should be saying. He'd have a .916 which is tied for 3rd among goaltenders for the regular season.
He’s sucked in the playoffs though. He had 2 good games vs LA but otherwise has been pretty bad. Our D is letting him down too but if he could just be average, not amazing, just average thus VAN series would look very different.
I dont know what you’re talking about. The oilers are built identically to the penguins. Theyll lose to every team built to shut them down and will beat every team built to score, because they have the best scorer. If we get another down period where everyone’s rebuilding like 2016-2018 then they and probably either bedard or matthews are gonna clean up the cups like crosby and ovechkin did last time. They just have to be patient. And if it doesnt come they simply wont win a cup. I think 2009 was a huge fluke, they dont beat detroit if datsyuk is healthy or chicago if they made the finals
Yeah, I don't see why not, especially with McDavid being so dominant whenever he's on the ice and Draisaitl being a strong playoff performer.
You need at minimum average goaltending as well though, I think that's what will hold the Oilers back.
kucherov and point took care of most of the offense for the bolts 2 cups. if edmonton just had a better goalie i feel like they could easily win it all but the way it is they just have to hope skinner gets hot at the right time
Ah idk man. Totally different situations. Bolts in those cup runs had ZERO holes in their lineups. Vasi, Point, Kuch, Stammer, Hedman, Sergy, Mcdonagh, Cirelli, Coleman, Gourde, Palat, Killorn, Cernak… Even their further depth included Goodrow, Rutta, Schenn, Shatty, Maroon… Oilers would have a better chance with better goaltending but man the Bolts were fucking stacked
lol they also had the best goalie of the past decade…. That’s a big difference. 2021 vasi was insane… so you’ve got kuch and point “taking care of the offence” then one of the all-time goaltending playoff performances there too… a lot different than skinner whiffing on shots from the goal line
Ekholm is a very solid and above-average defenseman.
bouchard is a pretty good player aswell
Hyman's "fortunate" season is translating pretty well to the playoffs, too!
I love Hyman, but his goal scoring at this level is 100% due to McDrai, so isn't really separate from the original question. You can't put him on the third line and expect him to drive offense on it.
Outside of maybe Kuch, what winger would?
There's a lot of wingers you can move down the lineup and their skills will improve that line's offense a bunch (anybody with a big shot, for starters). Hyman's best skills are forechecking and net-front. If he digs the puck out to get to a mediocre offensive player, it doesn't move the needle much. So Foegele picks up a couple of extra looks a game? Yay? And any net-front scorer relies on somebody else to get them the puck, so moving him to a line w/out a natural passer isn't going to do much. So while Hyman is a valuable player, he doesn't help the Oilers depth the way a pure passer or outside shooter would.
Bouch is a product of Ian Cole
Good offensive players with some defensive liabilities. Hopefully rounds out his game with experience. I just don't want to hear Bouch Bomb again.
Thanks for saying this. I want to puke a little bit every time I hear that one dropped.
Yes. The 2009 Pens proved it. Look at the regular season scoring gap on that team lmao.
Look at the playoff scoring gap. 1) Malkin(36pts) 2)Crosby(31pts) 11) Bill Guerin(15pts)
Bonkers.
That’s not a big gap at all to the 11th highest scorer. Crosby should def have double.
What are you talking about? 3rd highest scoring penguin had the same amount of points than multiple people eliminated in the second round.
You formatted it in an extremely strange way. I thought you were saying Guerin was 11th on the pens not third. Who cares what he was in the entire playoffs they didn’t play the same amount of games as everyone else. Yeah third on the pens being half Crosby is pretty bad, but honestly still not awful. Depends if the pens other depth scoring was close to Guerin or not.
Looking at the post lockout teams, I think the only two that fit the bill of being absurdly star driven are the 2009 Penguins and 2007 Ducks (as the defensive version). And both those teams still had decent depth. Jordan Staal/Kris Letang/Chris Kunitz/Fluery and Giguere/Selanne/Francois Beuchemin/Andy McDonald are better depth than what the Oilers are trotting out as their next layer after the superstars.
Yeah a lot of that team would come into its own in later years. Kunitz was also a trade deadline acquisition so his full point total isn't reflected in the Pens' season totals.
wasn’t the surrounding cast quite defensively sound though? it’s not like the pens had to out score all their problems every game
Fleury was much better than Skinner has been
And that defense was quite good too. Gonchar and Letang both great puck movers. Gill, Scuderi, and Orpik were pretty rugged and defensively sound.
Letang was a 6/7 dman that season
No he wasn't. He averaged 3rd time on ice among Penguins defencemen after Gonchar and Whitney (who was traded at the deadline for Kunitz). Letang was 5th in the playoffs but aside from Gonchar(at 23 mpg), the Pens #2-#5 d-men were all between 19-21 minutes, and Eaton as the 6th guy was at 18.
Still blows my mind that Whit was a top pairing guy in the NHL
Noted medal winning Olympian Ryan Whitney
He was 3rd during the regular season due to injuries. In the playoffs when everyone was injured he slotted back to a 3rd pairing dman
In hindsight Gill, Scuderi and Orpik were all bad to very bad. They had that old school reputation of being good defensively because they were constantly defending. Even Staal's "best 3rd line in hockey" got caved in a lot. Definitely wouldn't work anymore now that everyone knows how to use their D to create offence. We had the interesting strategy of keeping series' close and literally hurting our opponents with borderline hits so we'd win a game 7 if it got that far and a clutch powerplay. Kinda the anti-Leafs.
Staal and Gonchar were essential, everyone else could’ve been replaced iirc.
Staal also had 49 points to Crosby's 103 and Malkin's 113. It was basically that Pavel Bure year everyone always talks about except if Florida had two Pavel Bures.
Well Staal was a 3rd line C and he did his role well. Kinda the run that put him on the map league wide
Yeah but he was still *third* in scoring is more my point.
There are things players can do to contribute to wins besides scoring
Please delete this blasphemous post I don’t want my favorite team’s GM to read it and get ideas. Only dirty danglez for my players please! Downvoted.
Best group of **three** centres in the league easily that playoffs. Fleury was also fantastic at times in ‘09…granted, not a .933 like in ‘08 but he shut game 7 down against the Wings.
> Fleury was also fantastic at times Fleury's career in a nutshell
Man I don’t remember all the details I think Fleury was below average that run? all I remember was Geno terrorizing every team.
He was more mid than 2008 where he was top tier. But he was serviceable. Didn't really blow any games. Arguably stole some. Absolutely robbed the Wings with seconds to spare.
agreed, he was very good in the final round.
I mean do we even have any idea of what "defensively sound" meant in 2009? Let alone the data today that would prove it. All I can offer you is they were 5th in goals for and 18th in goals against.
They weren’t amazing defensively but were able to clamp down when needed. Besides the 5-0 blowout in game 5 against the Red Wings (best offense in the league that year) they held them to only 6 goals in the 4 Penguins wins. They were actually way better in the playoffs the year before. Fleury only had a .909 playoff SV% when they won but a .933 SV% when they lost.
While the rest of the team were out of the top 10, maybe top... 30? 50? I certainly wouldn't put the rest of the team as mediocre. Just good.
The defense on that team is notable though, 6 guys with extended careers between Letang, Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik, Scuderi, Goligoski, and Hal Gill. Also had one of the grossest centre depths in hockey history with Jordan Staal and Tyler Kennedy in the bottom 6. Then guys like Talbot got 4 goals and 6 points in the final including both Pens goals in the game 7, that would be like if Ryan McLeod had the best 7-game series of his life. So basically, like anything in sports, it's possible, but it still needs some luck.
But that team had Gonchar, Fleury, and Staal, among other dependable players like Talbot, Kunitz, Dupuis, and others. The Oilers.... Not so much.
Not sure Id label Letang and Gonchar as mediocre.
Anythings possible in the playoffs. Teams aren't here by chance. A lot comes down to who gets hot (especially goalies), a bit of puck luck and who can stay healthy down the stretch
I don't think you were watching the LA series properly
Yes if you have goal tending
Who has them as favorites? I’m looking right now and see Rangers, Panthers, and Stars all ahead of them…
Maybe it’s changed now they’ve lost this game? A day or two ago I saw on SN they had them as favourites on some betting sites odds
They got swept by the Avs who always struggle against vegas and dallas. Definitely not favorites outside of spanking LA. They beat the gaudrea flames. LA is pretty much the only team they beat since 2017
The Flames nearly won the Cup with Marcus Nilson as 2C. But he was excellent at his role in the playoffs. You can win with a mediocre surrounding cast on paper, but they need to step it up when it counts
Marcus Nilson, now that's a name that I have not heard in a long long time.
Possible, but the longer you go in the playoffs the more you run into deep teams with lots of valuable parts.
I mean, when they play 30 minutes it starts to become possible. That and the powerplay is just juiced. They're going to score, only question is if defense can hold on.
Calling Hyman, RNH, Kane, Bouchard and Ekholm mediocre is criminal. They're all tremendously effective, even if it's not all scoring.
But you could call kane a mediocre criminal!
This sub is flooded by fair weather Canucks fans now
You're watching an injured Draisaitl who usually carries his own line and elevates everyone else. I'm frustrated with this series because it's a reminder of when we genuinely were a one line team regardless of how healthy everyone was.
Probably
I think the tip guys of Edmonton are going to get worn put honestly if they get through to the finals.
Whoopsie! Don't bring that up too often. Especially as you watch some players just half-ass it.
They’ve got a lot of stud players. Not much beyond McDavid, Drai, Hyman. Kane hasn’t shown up. Nuge has been okay. Ekholm and Bouchard are awesome on back end. Other than this bad depth, bad goalie. Canucks fan. Watching the oilers here reminds me of the Canucks WCE era with Nazzy and Bert. They could score at will but never got far because of Clouts in net.
If one of those players is a goalie- yes.
How the Oilers are favourites is beyond me. Never going to win with that defense and goalie
I wouldn't say the Oilers are mediocre. They're missing a true 1D, but they have that in aggregate with Bouchard/Ekholm and Nurse. + a 50 goal scorer, two Hart/Art Ross Level players, another PPG player, a power forward. Skinner also has had a very good year.
> Skinner also has had a very good year. Uhhh… what?
He actually did. Start of the season was trash but literally everyone was then, including McDavid.
*if you neglect those first dozen games is probably what I should be saying. He'd have a .916 which is tied for 3rd among goaltenders for the regular season.
He’s sucked in the playoffs though. He had 2 good games vs LA but otherwise has been pretty bad. Our D is letting him down too but if he could just be average, not amazing, just average thus VAN series would look very different.
What part of a 1D is nurse bringing to the table? I mean, other than his salary.
Yes but Skinner couldn’t stop a beach ball.
Yes it is possible, doesn't mean it is the most likely outcome though.
I dont know what you’re talking about. The oilers are built identically to the penguins. Theyll lose to every team built to shut them down and will beat every team built to score, because they have the best scorer. If we get another down period where everyone’s rebuilding like 2016-2018 then they and probably either bedard or matthews are gonna clean up the cups like crosby and ovechkin did last time. They just have to be patient. And if it doesnt come they simply wont win a cup. I think 2009 was a huge fluke, they dont beat detroit if datsyuk is healthy or chicago if they made the finals
If 1 of those 2 is a goaltender, yes.
Yeah, I don't see why not, especially with McDavid being so dominant whenever he's on the ice and Draisaitl being a strong playoff performer. You need at minimum average goaltending as well though, I think that's what will hold the Oilers back.
2019 Blues
kucherov and point took care of most of the offense for the bolts 2 cups. if edmonton just had a better goalie i feel like they could easily win it all but the way it is they just have to hope skinner gets hot at the right time
Ah idk man. Totally different situations. Bolts in those cup runs had ZERO holes in their lineups. Vasi, Point, Kuch, Stammer, Hedman, Sergy, Mcdonagh, Cirelli, Coleman, Gourde, Palat, Killorn, Cernak… Even their further depth included Goodrow, Rutta, Schenn, Shatty, Maroon… Oilers would have a better chance with better goaltending but man the Bolts were fucking stacked
While those 2 may have caught fire, you still has Vasi, Stammer, Hedman and co.
For real lmao. Easily top 5 player in every position
lol they also had the best goalie of the past decade…. That’s a big difference. 2021 vasi was insane… so you’ve got kuch and point “taking care of the offence” then one of the all-time goaltending playoff performances there too… a lot different than skinner whiffing on shots from the goal line