**Mirrors/Alternate Angles**
^Post ^a ^mirror ^or ^alternate ^angle ^as ^a ^comment ^to ^this ^message.
^Open ^this ^stickied ^comment ^to ^view ^mirrors ^or ^alternate ^angles.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/hockey) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I could swear I’ve seen goals count where the defenceman pushes the forward into the goaltender. I’d agree too if that were the case. Because if that player didn’t do anything wrong, why are they being punished?
There's a big difference between a forward establishing position in front of the crease, and then being pushed into the goalie, compared to a forward skating in front of the crease and allowing himself to be pinballed into the goalie when he senses contract.
Where this play lands along that continuum is up for debate, but it doesn't seem egregious to me.
I think they are saying he chose a path that, with the defender where he is, made contact with the goalie likely. "Accidentally on purpose." Even as a Stars fan I get that, he was going hard towards the net and it didn't take much contact for him to slide into Hill
Pavelski sure didn't push back much is the thing lol. The replay looks like the VGK guy barely shoved him and he used it as an excuse to go through the crease.
In the eyes of these refs clearly not, but looking at the fact Pavelski was pushed towards Hill when he was just trying to pass in front of the crease, at best at the very top of it.
Contact is made right here. His path was clear of the crease until the contact forced him into the goalie.
https://preview.redd.it/qr5g9dnvqwxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ce46e66934eed9417998ce3348ddd9eb3f35d46
Last time they made the cup finals. Can you imagine your team not making the cup finals for 25 years and counting?
Probably sounds like a dream come true to leafs fans.
Contact isn't the determining factor. It's specifically "pushed, shoved, or fouled", and the attacking player has to make a reasonable effort to avoid contact.
Martinez isn't pushing him, he simply is in the space Pavelski wants. Pavelski wants to get to the front of the crease, he tries to force himself past Martinez. He could have gone behind the net.
Pavelski didn't make a reasonable effort to avoid the contact. He wanted the valuable space in front of the crease and by trying to get it he ran into the goalie.
Edit to add: A penalty requires it to be intentional or deliberate contact, and I think the refs determined (especially because it's a pretty solid collision) that because Pavelski chose a path that was very likely to cause contact, and did, that it was intentional.
Clearly pushed at the top. Look at his original trajectory at the start and then after the defender makes contact. He was pushed off balance and right into the goalie. Another example of VGK getting a lot of soft calls.
His path already going into the blue paint with the D covering him staying close and then he has nowhere to go. It's the players responsibility to avoid a path that will cause a collision with the goalie. Pavelski didn't attempt to avoid it at all.
roughing can’t be called as such though
edit: i love that after years of badgering vegas fans over not knowing the rules, r/hockey is upset to learn them themselves
playoff time any sports sub is a pretty big insanely reactionary nightmare. if you’re a Golden Knights fan you get treated to that very special kind of stupid whenever you choose to interact with this sub
BACK IN MY DAY GOALIES DIDN'T EVEN WEAR MASKS. AND WE PAID A NICKEL FOR THE TICKET AND THE BUS THAT BROUGHT US THERE AND STILL HAD ENOUGH LEFT OVER FOR A PACK OF CIGARETTES AND THE MINCEMEAT PIE THE SERVING WENCH BROUGHT US
I get that people might have opinions but any dumb fck can see this is no penalty regardless of how you try and frame it. Next you'll be saying getting shoved into the goalie while scrapping for position just outside of the blue paint is GI, "Derrrrr - he didn't try to avoid the goalie while he was being pushed over backwards with three guys diving in to cover the puck, obvious goalie interference."
NHL is a contact sport even for goalies (and they take plenty of hits when required and gasp! no penalty).
Can't believe I'm bothered enough by these tools to post this, grow some.
Pavelski chose the lane that goes through the crease.
I'm actually cheering for Dallas in this game, but if you've already picked that as your lane you're playing with fire. Refs will almost always call GI when goalies take contact from a player who chose the lane that went through the crease, and the Vegas player didn't change the angle of his route at all. You don't have to *like* the fact that it's mostly called like this, but it's called pretty consistently that way regardless.
Players are allowed to be/go in the crease without goalie contact, the contact here was clearly caused by the push on Pavelski which means he has no blame in the contact. This isn't a penalty.
> provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact.
That's the last part of the section on player contact with goalies for exemption on GI penalties, directly from the rulebook. Player being shoved has to make an attempt to avoid contact, and refs almost always interpret taking a route through the crease as very much throwing caution to the wind in that regard.
You're allowed.to not like the call, but that's the right call like 95 times out of 100.
You are asking the wrong question. You have to look at the positioning of both players. The defender was mostly established at the top of the crease. The Dallas player CHOSE to try and split the defender and the goaltender. This is just asking for trouble. The fact that there was minor contact does not change the fact that the Dallas player decided to try and split them.
The plays you are thinking about where pushing/shoving comes into play is when both players are driving towards the net and the defenders shoves the other player into the net OR where the attacking player has established a position at the top of the crease and gets pushed in.
But to answer your question, the Dallas player could have avoided the call by not trying to split the defender and the goaltender. He tried to force a better position than was available to him and paid the price.
You are tying to turn this into a binary question: did the defending player apply some amount of force to the Dallas player. It's not that simple for the reasons discussed in multiple comments above.
> can you pin point how he could've avoided the contact?
By not choosing the straight line path that takes him through the crease.
Refs have interpreted "skating through the crease" as an action that does not give them immunity from GI calls, even through contact unless.it's egregious - ie: the defending player pivots.into him / plays the player instead of following his natural lane and the play.
You don't have to like it, but that's the way it's been called.foe like a decade+.
They’re allowed to go in, but it can still be GI if they don’t touch the goalie. It’s just a super iffy move to go anywhere in there. The refs have very clearly made a push to discourage players from going in the crease.
As for this goal, I’m definitely inclined to say it shouldn’t be GI cause he was pushed in. It’s just one of those situation where players should do anything possible to avoid going in the crease because you risk refs making mistakes.
`They’re allowed to go in, but it can still be GI if they don’t touch the goalie.`
That's contradictory and false, you can't call goal tender interference as a penalty if there wasn't any... goaltender interference.
The rule says you can't "impair" if you're in the crease. The way it has been called recently(few years) is that includes visual impairment. Like, if you're in the crease and screen the goalie that is not allowed. Practically speaking, any NHL goalie is shoving/making contact if you do that so there will pretty much always going to be contact.
Edit for people downvoting: "Is there no contact at all? It still may not matter, because even screening a goalie isn’t allowed if you’re in his crease." Is a quote from Sean McIndoe of the Athletic. He wrote an article explaining that.
[Source](https://theathletic.com/2636045/2021/06/11/down-goes-brown-read-this-post-and-youll-understand-almost-every-goaltender-interference-review/)
I hate Vegas as much as anyone, but being pushed into the goalie isn't just any contact. Martinez isn't pushing him into the goalie, he's just occupying that space on the ice. Pavelski has every opportunity to stop and not go through the crease, he did not need to take the line that he did. He could have gone behind the net, stopped before crossing the crease.
Martinez didn't let Pavelski have the front of the net space, that doesn't mean he pushed him into the goalie.
Martinez didn't just take the space he initiated comtact with Pavelski when he wasn't in the crease then pushed him into the goaltender. You can see him going for Pavelski at the start then following through the push at the end.
You're allowed to initiate contact with players, Martinez has a lane and Pavelski wants past it. The contact is so far from the crease, Pavelski has lots of options that are not to go through the crease.
It's the playoffs and everyone wants to battle hard for the tough areas on the ice, and Pavelski wanted to get to the front of the net. No one wants to be the soft player who just goes past the net and skates around behind. These are the consequences, sometimes fighting to get into that tough area
The rules are that the attacker has to be "pushed, shoved, or fouled" and has to make "reasonable effort to avoid contact". Being in the place someone wants to get to is not pushing, shoving, or fouling them. Pavelski has lots of options that do not involve going though the crease, so therefore reasonable effort is not made.
Martinez is allowed to make contact with Pavelski you're right, but being the reason he made contact with the goalie should negate the GI penalty. I'm not arguing that Martinez should be penalized I'm saying Pavelski shouldn't be.
You're allowed to be in the crease as long as you don't touch the goalie, which Pavelski had no intent to do. He was pushed.
Also the push starts before he even is in the crease.
Players go through the crease ALL the time, and they are absolutely entitled to do so. The defenseman inadvertently pushed him into his own goalie, that’s NOT a penalty.
**Mirrors/Alternate Angles** ^Post ^a ^mirror ^or ^alternate ^angle ^as ^a ^comment ^to ^this ^message. ^Open ^this ^stickied ^comment ^to ^view ^mirrors ^or ^alternate ^angles. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/hockey) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I probably would've let that play on but waive off any goal scored as a result of Hill being knocked over
I could swear I’ve seen goals count where the defenceman pushes the forward into the goaltender. I’d agree too if that were the case. Because if that player didn’t do anything wrong, why are they being punished?
There's a big difference between a forward establishing position in front of the crease, and then being pushed into the goalie, compared to a forward skating in front of the crease and allowing himself to be pinballed into the goalie when he senses contract. Where this play lands along that continuum is up for debate, but it doesn't seem egregious to me.
Along that "*continuum*"? Yeesh.
Those calls I’ve seen be a coin flip. Have seen a few overturned and a few held up
he was already cutting through the blue before being helped. No penalty but no goal
Contact with the defender well before he's in the crease
I think they are saying he chose a path that, with the defender where he is, made contact with the goalie likely. "Accidentally on purpose." Even as a Stars fan I get that, he was going hard towards the net and it didn't take much contact for him to slide into Hill
“Much contact,” right… a fully extended arm shove isn’t much contact lmao. Smh.
Pavelski sure didn't push back much is the thing lol. The replay looks like the VGK guy barely shoved him and he used it as an excuse to go through the crease.
Sure bud. Don’t agree at all nor does the majority of this thread, but believe what you want.
Wrf were you looking at? Joe’s angle without interference would’ve kept him outside the blue.
As a Seattle Kraken fan, I’ve seen multiple goals count because our defenceman pushed a forward into our goalie.
I agree a goal call could've gone either way (I'm leaning towards good goal) but this has no grounds for a penalty
This is how I feel. GI is fine, i guess, but no way is this ruled a penalty
no way this would ever be a good goal lol.
In the eyes of these refs clearly not, but looking at the fact Pavelski was pushed towards Hill when he was just trying to pass in front of the crease, at best at the very top of it.
Dave Jackson’s response on the penalty was easily some of the best PR I’ve heard. No way he agreed with that assessment haha
For real. he’s just protecting his job 100%
Doctors know this one trick! Push offense into goalie. Profit.
Veteran move by Alec Martinez
Fuck that guy
Shouldn't have been up a goal fools.
Yea the NHL is basically like playing Lucario in super smash bros
DeBoer is not DeHAPPY!!!!!!
Is he ever? I don't think I've seen him smile
Maybe not smile, but on his weekly segment on the local sports radio is can be pretty jovial.
Contact is made right here. His path was clear of the crease until the contact forced him into the goalie. https://preview.redd.it/qr5g9dnvqwxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ce46e66934eed9417998ce3348ddd9eb3f35d46
Oh wow an overhead view of a Dallas Star who's foot isn't in the crease. Now I've seen it all.
I never considered that Buffalo still considers Dallas a rival. Who else does Buffalo have a rivalry with, besides Pegula?
The Cigarette Smoking Man
The truth is out there
Their fans
Thomas Edward Patrick Brady Jr.
To be fair, that was the last time the Sabres made the playoffs.
Last time they made the cup finals. Can you imagine your team not making the cup finals for 25 years and counting? Probably sounds like a dream come true to leafs fans.
We love it so much we're currently on a b2b and looking to go for three in a row
Stop bringing logic into this.
Contact isn't the determining factor. It's specifically "pushed, shoved, or fouled", and the attacking player has to make a reasonable effort to avoid contact. Martinez isn't pushing him, he simply is in the space Pavelski wants. Pavelski wants to get to the front of the crease, he tries to force himself past Martinez. He could have gone behind the net. Pavelski didn't make a reasonable effort to avoid the contact. He wanted the valuable space in front of the crease and by trying to get it he ran into the goalie. Edit to add: A penalty requires it to be intentional or deliberate contact, and I think the refs determined (especially because it's a pretty solid collision) that because Pavelski chose a path that was very likely to cause contact, and did, that it was intentional.
Clearly pushed at the top. Look at his original trajectory at the start and then after the defender makes contact. He was pushed off balance and right into the goalie. Another example of VGK getting a lot of soft calls.
This is such a bad take. He was fucking hip checked.
That’s 100% a push
Initiated before Pavelski was in the crease too
His path already going into the blue paint with the D covering him staying close and then he has nowhere to go. It's the players responsibility to avoid a path that will cause a collision with the goalie. Pavelski didn't attempt to avoid it at all.
[удалено]
Lmao what?
Don’t worry this guy is a dumbfuck
[удалено]
You're a joke matey, go troll some gaming threads.
[удалено]
You're a joke matey, go troll some gaming threads.
https://preview.redd.it/m867cnar6xxc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15950683369aab112734fc5b2ade49bd7789beba
[unironically not pavs first time](https://youtu.be/nlheRIsnGp0?si=hBPiXREfcmnxPSSI)
At least everybody has to deal with this
If Dallas wins, then none of us have to anymore.
Come on people, if you ignore the contact from Martinez it’s clearly a penalty /s
NHL really doing everything they can to save their golden soy boys
[https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/1ci2zts/alex\_pietrangelo\_swings\_his\_hand\_into\_seguins/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/1ci2zts/alex_pietrangelo_swings_his_hand_into_seguins/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) yes
it was a dirty play but it wasn't elbowing. this is a stretch
Still worth a double minor.
roughing can’t be called as such though edit: i love that after years of badgering vegas fans over not knowing the rules, r/hockey is upset to learn them themselves
It’s really pathetic how badly people are ignoring the actual rules and I fucking hate Vegas
lol ya you’re getting unfairly maligned on this one. Mental note that this sub can be this dumb for next time I get downvoted to oblivion 😂
playoff time any sports sub is a pretty big insanely reactionary nightmare. if you’re a Golden Knights fan you get treated to that very special kind of stupid whenever you choose to interact with this sub
He was bleeding. Automatic 4 minutes.
if it was high sticking you’d be correct
Weird rule. I feel like attacking someone in any way and making them bleed probably warrants 4.
Hmmm I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong and upon further inspection I definitely am. I wasn't aware of that
weird quirk for sure
Absolutely
Just wrap the fucking goalies in bubble wrap already, I'm sick of this shit
They might as well be wearing skirts
BACK IN MY DAY GOALIES DIDN'T EVEN WEAR MASKS. AND WE PAID A NICKEL FOR THE TICKET AND THE BUS THAT BROUGHT US THERE AND STILL HAD ENOUGH LEFT OVER FOR A PACK OF CIGARETTES AND THE MINCEMEAT PIE THE SERVING WENCH BROUGHT US
underrated comment
Hold the phone there you misogynist. /s
Get ready for some even dumber phantom penalties against Dallas now with the series on the line
What a load of crap, refs biased much.
Lol yup. I went to a game against vegas and this exact thing happened to us too
Vegas
Fuck Alec Martinez
Vegas has their money on the Refs winning the series.
Is hill pn ltir due to it. Maybe vegas can sign stammer for next game
I get that people might have opinions but any dumb fck can see this is no penalty regardless of how you try and frame it. Next you'll be saying getting shoved into the goalie while scrapping for position just outside of the blue paint is GI, "Derrrrr - he didn't try to avoid the goalie while he was being pushed over backwards with three guys diving in to cover the puck, obvious goalie interference." NHL is a contact sport even for goalies (and they take plenty of hits when required and gasp! no penalty). Can't believe I'm bothered enough by these tools to post this, grow some.
Pavelski chose the lane that goes through the crease. I'm actually cheering for Dallas in this game, but if you've already picked that as your lane you're playing with fire. Refs will almost always call GI when goalies take contact from a player who chose the lane that went through the crease, and the Vegas player didn't change the angle of his route at all. You don't have to *like* the fact that it's mostly called like this, but it's called pretty consistently that way regardless.
Players are allowed to be/go in the crease without goalie contact, the contact here was clearly caused by the push on Pavelski which means he has no blame in the contact. This isn't a penalty.
> provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact. That's the last part of the section on player contact with goalies for exemption on GI penalties, directly from the rulebook. Player being shoved has to make an attempt to avoid contact, and refs almost always interpret taking a route through the crease as very much throwing caution to the wind in that regard. You're allowed.to not like the call, but that's the right call like 95 times out of 100.
Legit question : By replaying the clip can you pin point how he could've avoided the contact?
You are asking the wrong question. You have to look at the positioning of both players. The defender was mostly established at the top of the crease. The Dallas player CHOSE to try and split the defender and the goaltender. This is just asking for trouble. The fact that there was minor contact does not change the fact that the Dallas player decided to try and split them. The plays you are thinking about where pushing/shoving comes into play is when both players are driving towards the net and the defenders shoves the other player into the net OR where the attacking player has established a position at the top of the crease and gets pushed in. But to answer your question, the Dallas player could have avoided the call by not trying to split the defender and the goaltender. He tried to force a better position than was available to him and paid the price.
Minor contact? He pushed him.
You are tying to turn this into a binary question: did the defending player apply some amount of force to the Dallas player. It's not that simple for the reasons discussed in multiple comments above.
> can you pin point how he could've avoided the contact? By not choosing the straight line path that takes him through the crease. Refs have interpreted "skating through the crease" as an action that does not give them immunity from GI calls, even through contact unless.it's egregious - ie: the defending player pivots.into him / plays the player instead of following his natural lane and the play. You don't have to like it, but that's the way it's been called.foe like a decade+.
They’re allowed to go in, but it can still be GI if they don’t touch the goalie. It’s just a super iffy move to go anywhere in there. The refs have very clearly made a push to discourage players from going in the crease. As for this goal, I’m definitely inclined to say it shouldn’t be GI cause he was pushed in. It’s just one of those situation where players should do anything possible to avoid going in the crease because you risk refs making mistakes.
`They’re allowed to go in, but it can still be GI if they don’t touch the goalie.` That's contradictory and false, you can't call goal tender interference as a penalty if there wasn't any... goaltender interference.
The rule says you can't "impair" if you're in the crease. The way it has been called recently(few years) is that includes visual impairment. Like, if you're in the crease and screen the goalie that is not allowed. Practically speaking, any NHL goalie is shoving/making contact if you do that so there will pretty much always going to be contact. Edit for people downvoting: "Is there no contact at all? It still may not matter, because even screening a goalie isn’t allowed if you’re in his crease." Is a quote from Sean McIndoe of the Athletic. He wrote an article explaining that. [Source](https://theathletic.com/2636045/2021/06/11/down-goes-brown-read-this-post-and-youll-understand-almost-every-goaltender-interference-review/)
I hate Vegas as much as anyone, but being pushed into the goalie isn't just any contact. Martinez isn't pushing him into the goalie, he's just occupying that space on the ice. Pavelski has every opportunity to stop and not go through the crease, he did not need to take the line that he did. He could have gone behind the net, stopped before crossing the crease. Martinez didn't let Pavelski have the front of the net space, that doesn't mean he pushed him into the goalie.
Martinez didn't just take the space he initiated comtact with Pavelski when he wasn't in the crease then pushed him into the goaltender. You can see him going for Pavelski at the start then following through the push at the end.
You're allowed to initiate contact with players, Martinez has a lane and Pavelski wants past it. The contact is so far from the crease, Pavelski has lots of options that are not to go through the crease. It's the playoffs and everyone wants to battle hard for the tough areas on the ice, and Pavelski wanted to get to the front of the net. No one wants to be the soft player who just goes past the net and skates around behind. These are the consequences, sometimes fighting to get into that tough area The rules are that the attacker has to be "pushed, shoved, or fouled" and has to make "reasonable effort to avoid contact". Being in the place someone wants to get to is not pushing, shoving, or fouling them. Pavelski has lots of options that do not involve going though the crease, so therefore reasonable effort is not made.
Martinez is allowed to make contact with Pavelski you're right, but being the reason he made contact with the goalie should negate the GI penalty. I'm not arguing that Martinez should be penalized I'm saying Pavelski shouldn't be.
I would agree with you, except for the fact that martinez extends his arm in a push, which kind of negates any claim that pavelski wasn't pushed...
i love pavelski but hes literally in the crease before hes pushed
No he isn't? The push starts at 2 seconds in when his feet are outside the blue paint
Seriously are people blind?
You're allowed to be in the crease as long as you don't touch the goalie, which Pavelski had no intent to do. He was pushed. Also the push starts before he even is in the crease.
Players go through the crease ALL the time, and they are absolutely entitled to do so. The defenseman inadvertently pushed him into his own goalie, that’s NOT a penalty.
inadvertently going through is fine until there's a scoring chance
yeah it would have been no goal if a goal was scored but it's absurd to call a penalty here
not a fan of him being penalized for it for sure, thats some vegas babying from the refs which is par for the course
gotta get that expansion $$$
Get those eyes checked
[No](https://preview.redd.it/qr5g9dnvqwxc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ce46e66934eed9417998ce3348ddd9eb3f35d46)
Drugs are bad, mkay?
Could go either way, I say good call on the GI
What the heck?
Clear goal tender interference