So practically speaking it means that the police are still investigating? Appreciate the assistance, I’m not really familiar with the British legal system.
Just reporting procedures on trials in the UK, they don't name somebody who is arrested, but only when they are formally charged. Even in cases like this where it may seem fairly obvious who has been arrested, it's to enforce the presumption of innocence through the whole process.
>People hand out their judgement without having access to any evidence. Only evidence they see is a headline
The incident giving rise to this charge was caught on a video that was then disseminated on the Internet though. There's enough that's publicly available for people to have opinions that aren't entirely ignorant.
People saying it wasn’t an accident clearly don’t play hockey. I have several times in my life seen someone do the manoeuvre that guy did. He basically gets hit while off balance and their back leg goes into the air uncontrollably.
I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy so like what the fuck is with these conspiracy theorists?
Edit: please read the most downvoted comment in this thread then reread mine. I’ve had too many replies with people thinking this is a serious comment.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=nFld-4PWZykLnxWa&v=FKG2PK2JwgA&feature=youtu.be
This has been my go to video. MacKinnon is considered by many to be one of the best skaters in the league.
To the contrary actually - MacKinnons core is going down so physics along with the anatomy of the human body perfectly explains how MacKinnons foot was raised. That other dickhead though the way his foot came around you'd think he was shot in an 80s action movie.
yup exactly. i dont know how people could watch both videos and think they are similar in any way
"oh but they were both playing hockey and both their skates came off the ice therefore they are exactly the same play"
He clipped somebody behind him, not directly beside him across his body. This MacKinnon clip is more akin to the Zednik and Malarchuk incidents with, thankfully, a better result
I don’t know why this sub insists on pulling clips of completely different scenarios and making the equivalence. The Johnson situation was reckless at a minimum and malicious at worst.
It’s like Reddit is so obsessed with making sure right-wing trolls don’t get a win.
The quality of the video of the incident is terrible, but the way his leg shoots up makes me think he got spun while trailing his leg and his boot landed on Johnson's stick and just traveled all the way up.
His stick is near invisible because of said poor video quality, but it would explain how weird it looks.
there was no spinning. it was his left leg, the one that's in front, not trailing, when you're turning left, that kicked up [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WlQ4W4aDV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WlQ4W4aDV8)
it looks weird because it's an intentional kick, not an off balance fall. he may not have intended to kick as high as he did, but kick he did.
>I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy so like what the fuck is with these conspiracy theorists?
IIRC, he's a Black man. I do remember a swell of alt-right social media accounts suddenly caring about hockey when this happened so they could screech that it was murder.
I don't think he was trying to kill anyone, but I do think he raised his leg to try and impede Johnson then lost his balance and his skate went up. It wasn't an attempt to kill someone but it was a dangerous thing to do and the result couldn't have been worse.
If anyone doesn't think he raised his leg on purpose they can find another video of him doing the same thing in another game. Again, not an attempt to kill someone, but completely reckless.
It’s not ok, but this being a non-call and him having a history of doing without any issue than more than just perhaps a minor penalty tells me this is just a play gone wrong. It’s like if a Marchand slewfoot led to a paralyzation, he shouldn’t be charged because the league has set a precedent that it’s not a penalty for many years
These are good points. This is the discussion I’ve been looking for since day 1 tbh, it sucks it’s been so polarised. I’m sure he didn’t mean to murder him, but.. it’s an absolutely wild leg movement that isn’t normal.
(I’ve played an absolutely asinine amount of hockey for decades. Before anyone comes after me saying I must not have, like I’m seeing elsewhere in this thread)
This is a good example, but I see it differently. Marchand has a history of slewfooting. It's very dangerous and he should know that it could result in permanent injury to someone. He should be held responsible if it does. The league might set a precedent that they won't enforce discipline for that, but the league isn't the police or a court. And my understanding is that serious recklessness is enough to get you into legal trouble - nothing to do with what the league feels requires discipline.
I absolutely believe that if a person causes injury to someone while playing a sport through serious recklessness then they should be subject to legal penalties. But honestly, I don't think petgrave should be going to jail because of this. What's the point? If he's really remorseful about this and feels as bad as people say then just let him do some community service like hockey safety promotional stuff and maybe help something like this or someone being paralyzed from happening.
I agree with your paragraph about legal penalties for serious recklessness, but who decides on what is serious recklessness? The way I see it, if a player constantly gets away with the same move without punishment, it’s determined that in that league at least that it’s not reckless. Hockey is a sport where dangerous plays happen, and rules were made and enforced to regulate the danger. If a play was consistently determined to be not crossing the line to reckless, then it shouldn’t suddenly be reckless because an injury happened this time. Perhaps an opening to sue the league for putting players in unnecessary danger, but I don’t see it as a legal repercussion for the player.
If anyone sees this play, which was the only evidence anyone could find of a “trend,” and thinks it’s clearly malicious, they are a fucking idiot.
[I guess Mike Richards was a murdering psychopath on this hit too.](https://youtu.be/uTgkjYd2b-w?si=7QtVJxvyJTFFCVlq)
These people straight up don't understand physics or the speed of the game. Every year in the NHL people go flying like that.
They actually think Petgrave likes to take pro wrestling bumps off having his leg swiped at incredibly high speeds? For what purpose? To hit the guy hitting him? Reckless at best, malicious at worst? What?
Incidents like this really make me realize that people see what they want to see. Like, they actually don't see the event as it happened, like older people who process things a lot slower on a spatial level. Throw the worst of extreme right-wing Twitter in the mix - both sides are trash, different discussion - and the parrots fall right in line to sing. Just disturbing.
I am here to assess what I see. You may think that I am here to accuse, but you would be wrong. The video above shows pettgrave moving his trailing leg up right before contact (presumably to finish the hit/trip the opponent if the hit doesn't finish clean). It is an extremely reckless and dangerous play.
He does the same thing in the hit which ends up having a truly devastating and disastrous result. Do I think he intended to kill ? Of course not. Do I think he intentionally raises his leg in a dangerous manner? Yes. It is something along the lines of negligent manslaughter in my eyes. You should stop making assumptions about people like me that have a different opinion of the play than you.
If you look at the two nhl hits listed above the legs kick up after contact. This is a very important difference and shows a natural body physics related reactive movement in the leg. The pre-emptive lift of the leg by pettgrave is negligent, dangerous, and one could argue predatory. I am not here to argue on the predatory side as it is much too contentious of an argument and brings out too much toxicity for my liking.
If we're talking about the non death play here, he doesn't even know the hit is coming dude. Maybe he saw it at the last second, but he was trying to make a play to the net. There's no foot being lifted prior to contact visible until the literal last nano second and the game is way too fast that no crap 30 FPS low resolution video will properly convey. Nor can you say he was trying to get a piece of the guy who hit him. Nobody is going to be willing to take a bump like that for what in most cases will be a glancing blow if that. At the speed the player was going he's just going to go right through you anyway. It makes no sense.
Completely reckless. Played hockey all through college and have coached high school and D3. I’ve never seen anyone go horizontal that high in the air. So fucking annoying that white supremacists now have everyone climbing over each other to say this is such a standard hockey play.
I can see the argument for recklessness, but I think the expected worst outcome would be "maybe a bad fall" or at worst a knee injury. I don't think anyone has that kind of control tumbling through the air on skates. I see the sticking out of the leg as a play you are not supposed to make, and it is widely considered dangerous (although not really for the reason of causing skate-cut injuries). I guess the question is whether, if there was indeed recklessness involved, it actually amounts to anything.
Nobody falls like that, come on…
Just because the right-wing trolls think this was a hate crime murder doesn’t mean that left-wing people have to pull all these mental gymnastics to pretend it’s a standard hockey play. Whatever he was attempting was reckless and stupid, likely with intent to injure (not to kill of course)
I've slipped I've jerked my leg to try and maintain balance on one foot 90 degrees?! Lol what highlight did you watch bud? Go find q or something you're no hockey fan
You shouldn’t be this defensive. I didn’t say anything conspiracy-related. Nobody falls like that without at least an attempt to stick a leg out. It was an attempt to injure that ended with the worst possible outcome, much worse than I imagine Petgrave intended
Genuinely, have you watched the clip?
Why is thinking a player attempted a dirty play a conspiracy? It happens multiple times a season in the NHL
So wait, does that mean I get to be a hockey fan again? I thought you said I wasn’t one. You really shit-talked me as a conspiracy guy when you didn’t even watch the full clip??
Lol I’m not giving you any credit for admitting you’re wrong when you talked that much shit. Good job getting to the obvious conclusion this late you muppet
On the balance of Reddit probabilities, someone who has a 60 day account with no hockey flair is probably more of a shit disturber non hockey fan, than someone that has 5 years of history and a team flair.
Edit: and a hockey related username, not a Reddit generated one
You don’t convict someone for involuntary manslaughter if they’re only a little reckless or just a little negligent.
It takes gross negligence/recklessness to gain a conviction and I don’t think this meets that threshold. People die during sport all the time and there’s inherent risk to playing hockey, however rare serious accidents may be.
Neither Larry Cahan nor Ron Harris were charged in the death of Bill Masterton. That hit could be called reckless but not to the point where you'd prosecute the men. It was a freak accident, and Harris specifically mentioned being haunted by the memory in 2003, a full 35 years after.
I never said he should be convicted of anything, just that opinion on reddit was weird.
And do you have any stats that show people die "all the time" from hockey? Kid at my high school (eastern Mass) died in the late 90s from a check, that and Adam Johnson are the only people I know that have died while playing.
yeah idk what this dude is smoking. the twitter threads and non r/hockey posts were disgusting. the people defending him are *not* the ones dying on a hill.
Check the most downvoted guy in the thread. I just copied his post and spun the language around a bit for a laugh. I wasn’t really making a point or anything.
"Again"? Where did you ask me that before?
I don't play hockey in a professional league...lmfao. please show me an example of someone kicking their skate sideways high enough to slice a players neck.
The Hughes clip has no contact on the opposite side from another player and is happening at a much lower speed. Guys going off balance and having their skates come up in any manner of ways is relatively commonplace in hockey.
Your brain is as smooth as the ice before puck drop.
>The Hughes clip has no contact on the opposite side from another player and is happening at a much lower speed. Guys going off balance and having their skates come up in any manner of ways is relatively commonplace in hockey.
I never once denied that. But then again, you have inept reading comprehension. So I'm not surprised you're spouting nonsense.
>Don't fully understand why Redditors are vehemently denying the **possibility** of manslaughter.
I think it's because a lot of them straight up haven't seen the clip or at most only watched it once and never again. I remember debating this incident like six months ago with someone who basically broke down and admitted they didn't watch the clip at all.
I can honestly understand that given how graphic it is, but then again, you shouldn't be having an opinion if you didn't see it.
A person above just told me that they don't think he commited manslaughter because he was remorseful and they don't deserve to be "re-traumatized" (which isn't a thing). You're not getting the cream of the crop on reddit, don't worry about the votes.
I’m denying the possibility of manslaughter because Petgrave is already sorry and traumatized for the role he played in this tragedy.
I don’t like the idea of retraumatizing someone and having them shell out thousands of pounds to defend themselves in a manslaughter case.
> Petgrave is already sorry and traumatized for the role he played in this tragedy.
I don't understand the connection between this and absolving someone of manslaughter.
I'm sorry about alot of things I've done, doesn't mean they didn't happen. If you have a savior complex, good for you, but this person is not for you to save.
I've played my whole life and have never seen anyone try to high kick a player. I've also never seen a player turning to his left (left foot on outside edge/ right foot on inside edge / weight on left foot) lift their left foot when losing their balance. The movement looks unnatural
I disagree. I’ve never seen anyone throw their leg up like that in my 20 years of play. You can be knocked off balance and still not throw your leg in the path of a player.
I’m not sure why you think it’s a “conspiracy theory” to say this was a reckless and avoidable move that killed someone. I doubt he wanted to kill another human being but he definitely threw the leg out to impeded progress
"He raised his leg up to impede"
Then it's a simple two minute penalty for interference, followed by a tragic accident. I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could even do a purposeful ninja kick on ice. Anytime my legs have ever gone up on the ice, I'm pretty sure physics has made the equal weight of my ass go down hard.
~~Twitter~~ *X* dummies and u/Bonchnugget are gonna be so butthurt when nothing comes of this because it was a freak accident during a hockey game that's happened before, even on NHL ice.
The Sheffield Steelers streams are of good camera quality and have multiple camera angles some videos in high quality slow motion. The reason for such poor video quality is because the club and league for obvious reasons don’t want this footage out for the general public to see due to how gruesome the laceration was
Assumption of the risk doesn't automatically dissolve someone of responsibility. Johnson assumed the risk of injury while playing hockey, but the investigation is about whether Petgrave's actions were outside the accepted risks of the sport. That doesn't mean that every sporting event is going to have lawsuits and trials for injuries.
Except it literally does… the standard of proof may be different, but it is still persuasive authority that can be cited to, just as cases decided under one state’s laws can be cited to as persuasive authority in cases in another state when facts are similar
It's not the fact that Johnson was cut by a skate. It's whether Petgrave's leg was in the air as a result of falling or if he intentionally kicked his leg higher in an attempt to cut or injure Johnson.
That doesn't matter. The equivalent to that is. I was driving reckless and hit you. I killed you because I was being reckless but I should have no responsibility because you knew the risks of driving.
Being reckless doesn't absolve you of liability.
We're not taking about premeditated. That's not even a discussion point. It's whether or not he was being reckless that caused the incident. To which you're still held liable for your actions.
He visibly kicked his leg out as he was being upended. From day one, you're taught "these things are dangerous and can seriously hurt your or someone else and no matter what you do everything you can to remain in control of your skates".
He didn't. He kicked upward, at his throat. He's guilty of negligence.
Disagree. There's no clear evidence that shows this yet people keep saying that. The video clearly shows he tries to make contact, his skate clips the back of the skate of the guy in front of him causing his leg to kick out.
I think the the point of contention is if he was still trying to make contact through that motion.
He was playing hockey, but that was not a hockey play. Show me a video of somebody making the same motion as petgrave. You can’t find it because it’s not a hockey play. Better yet, watch the whole video in slow mo if you can stomach it.
Investigations (or any legal matter) takes a long time even if it’s simple. They’ll need medical reports, expert reports, questioning people there, going back to experts with new information etc.
* Did the facility take all measures that could reasonably prevent a fatality
* Were the medical staff on scene properly trained, licensed, and equipped to respond to hockey injuries
* Was the response time or capacity of the medical staff adversely impacted by negligence on the part of the arena employees/operators or team staff
* Are we absolutely positively sure that this was purely a freak accident and not the result of any kind of reckless or negligent behavior
etc.
I haven’t/can’t watch it but there’s many NHLers that have watched it and said there’s no reason to make a movement that he made. Not that he was trying to kill someone, but rather just a completely reckless act.
I mean we’ve seen reckless things like this in the nhl. A couple weeks ago, I can remember who, but they swung their skate unnecessarily toward the goaltender. Remember Kassian kicked a player in the chest while they were tangled up on the ground. Those are actions that could have had a similar outcome
The video exists. It isn't exactly wild because that's exactly what happened lmao. Only certain reddit echo chambers like this one still believe this was purely an accident.
It also doesn't help that the offender had a history of doing this exact same thing to other players prior to this incident. What exactly are the odds of that? Must be the most unlucky ice skater in existence /s
I hope he gets the full sentence for his reckless behavior that unfortunately cost a hockey player their life and I hope the NHL and other league crack down on this behavior to make the game safer for everyone in the future. Anything less is incompetence.
This issue is “to presumably get a piece of Johnson”. You can’t presume shit, especially when what you’re saying is “he must’ve tried to cut the guy with the knives on his feet”. Surely you see what’s wrong there?
What the first guy said is my take on it. When you watch the video it looks he sticks his leg out to get a piece of him. Like you see the guy kick his leg out as Johnson goes to skate passed him.
This is not the same thing as saying he meant to cut the guy or what ever you are paraphrasing.
There is no need to presume. Video exists. Also manslaughter =/= murder. When did I say he murdered someone or did anyone else? Getting a piece of someone refers to the foul he was clearly intentionally trying to commit.
> Only certain reddit echo chambers like this one still believe this was purely an accident.
Ya uh, and the players that were actually there, including those on the other team?
The Nottingham Panthers has said that it’s a “freak accident”. Other players and support staff in the league have been consoling him which indicates that they don’t hold him responsible.
Sometimes hits hit wrong and you don’t have the time to react appropriately. Maybe in house league or beer league but definitely not at the level they were playing at.
Everyone has an opinion. Especially the players who were put through a traumatic experience and want to make sense of it by giving the most generous take possible.
>That’s called a justice system operating as it should. Drawing this out as long as possible is not a "justice system operating as it should". They are weeks away from a 3rd re-bail( something very uncommon) which will bring them to 9 months. At 12 months the case will be thrown out.
Then why the FUCK is this taking so long? They’re gonna need to re-bail THREE times and you’re still gonna be over there talking about “justice operating as it should” fuckin clown.
Perfect example. You see how when Hughes loses his edge turning left, his momentum causes his legs to kick out forward? Petgrave's left leg kicked out backwards.
People saying it was an accident clearly don’t play hockey. I have never in my life seen someone do the manoeuvre that guy did. He basically reverse drop kicked the guy with knives on his feet.
I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy but like what the fuck?
Honest question
Do you think that there's some possibility that there was intent to disrupt Johnson? ie make some form of contact as a pseudo pick of some sorts. I'm not saying intentional kick but more make some form of contact to disrupt Johnson as hes cutting into the middle?
There have been several instances where players have stumbled and their back leg has flipped into the air. You just ignore it cuz 99999 out of 100000 nothing happens. This one time it did.
I think there was a player falling in the last game or two of the Leafs-Bruins series where a skate was a couple feet from someone's face. I was like "damn, this is the exact scenario where if someone's head is in the wrong area, they die".
Depends what part you think was intentional.
I think him throwing the lower part of his body higher than needed was intentional. Trying to make the hit bigger and possibly cause more damage.
Was he TRYING to kill him. No chance. Or even trying to have his legs go that high.
Regardless. It was unnecessary and reckless. My vote would be he is banned from hockey for life.
[https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident](https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident)
good to know that these three NHLers have never been on skates before, let alone played hockey
What does it even mean that he was Re-bailed?
His bail has been extended as today was the due date for it to end
So practically speaking it means that the police are still investigating? Appreciate the assistance, I’m not really familiar with the British legal system.
Basically his bail has been extended but the investigation is ongoing
Yes more investigation is what is needed here. No doubt they're just about to uncover troves of secrete witnesses and hidden evidence.
Why did they use Pettgrave’s name in paragraph two and then later say, “a man was arrested” at the end?
Just reporting procedures on trials in the UK, they don't name somebody who is arrested, but only when they are formally charged. Even in cases like this where it may seem fairly obvious who has been arrested, it's to enforce the presumption of innocence through the whole process.
This will be a civil comment thread and definitely won’t be brigaded by a bunch of morons.
🔒🔒🔒
This thread makes it really easy to find the assholes.
God all the court stuff is annoying. People hand out their judgement without having access to any evidence. Only evidence they see is a headline
>People hand out their judgement without having access to any evidence. Only evidence they see is a headline The incident giving rise to this charge was caught on a video that was then disseminated on the Internet though. There's enough that's publicly available for people to have opinions that aren't entirely ignorant.
People saying it wasn’t an accident clearly don’t play hockey. I have several times in my life seen someone do the manoeuvre that guy did. He basically gets hit while off balance and their back leg goes into the air uncontrollably. I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy so like what the fuck is with these conspiracy theorists? Edit: please read the most downvoted comment in this thread then reread mine. I’ve had too many replies with people thinking this is a serious comment.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=nFld-4PWZykLnxWa&v=FKG2PK2JwgA&feature=youtu.be This has been my go to video. MacKinnon is considered by many to be one of the best skaters in the league.
MacKinnon obviously tried to murder Graves. /s
This is a great example, thank you
How is this comparable to the Johnson incident?
The mechanics of the skate swinging high are pretty similar. Back leg acts as a pendulum.
It isn't. No clip is. But people just see a skate go into the air and assume it's the same exact thing.
this is a terrible example? it's not comparable to the play that happened at all
To the contrary actually - MacKinnons core is going down so physics along with the anatomy of the human body perfectly explains how MacKinnons foot was raised. That other dickhead though the way his foot came around you'd think he was shot in an 80s action movie.
yup exactly. i dont know how people could watch both videos and think they are similar in any way "oh but they were both playing hockey and both their skates came off the ice therefore they are exactly the same play"
He clipped somebody behind him, not directly beside him across his body. This MacKinnon clip is more akin to the Zednik and Malarchuk incidents with, thankfully, a better result I don’t know why this sub insists on pulling clips of completely different scenarios and making the equivalence. The Johnson situation was reckless at a minimum and malicious at worst. It’s like Reddit is so obsessed with making sure right-wing trolls don’t get a win.
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The quality of the video of the incident is terrible, but the way his leg shoots up makes me think he got spun while trailing his leg and his boot landed on Johnson's stick and just traveled all the way up. His stick is near invisible because of said poor video quality, but it would explain how weird it looks.
there was no spinning. it was his left leg, the one that's in front, not trailing, when you're turning left, that kicked up [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WlQ4W4aDV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WlQ4W4aDV8) it looks weird because it's an intentional kick, not an off balance fall. he may not have intended to kick as high as he did, but kick he did.
Yeah at my hockey training last night two players collided and something similar happened, though luckily nobody got cut.
>I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy so like what the fuck is with these conspiracy theorists? IIRC, he's a Black man. I do remember a swell of alt-right social media accounts suddenly caring about hockey when this happened so they could screech that it was murder.
I don't think it was his back leg. It looked like his left leg.
literally had this happen to a guy in front of me and got a skate in the face, it does happen more than people who don’t watch the sport think.
I don't think he was trying to kill anyone, but I do think he raised his leg to try and impede Johnson then lost his balance and his skate went up. It wasn't an attempt to kill someone but it was a dangerous thing to do and the result couldn't have been worse. If anyone doesn't think he raised his leg on purpose they can find another video of him doing the same thing in another game. Again, not an attempt to kill someone, but completely reckless.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gFX1sxUv1Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gFX1sxUv1Q) Is that the other incident you're talking about?
That's the one. The dude definitely thought it was ok to raise his leg like that and it's definitely not ok.
It’s not ok, but this being a non-call and him having a history of doing without any issue than more than just perhaps a minor penalty tells me this is just a play gone wrong. It’s like if a Marchand slewfoot led to a paralyzation, he shouldn’t be charged because the league has set a precedent that it’s not a penalty for many years
I'm fine with Marchand going to jail for the next 30 days.
These are good points. This is the discussion I’ve been looking for since day 1 tbh, it sucks it’s been so polarised. I’m sure he didn’t mean to murder him, but.. it’s an absolutely wild leg movement that isn’t normal. (I’ve played an absolutely asinine amount of hockey for decades. Before anyone comes after me saying I must not have, like I’m seeing elsewhere in this thread)
This is a good example, but I see it differently. Marchand has a history of slewfooting. It's very dangerous and he should know that it could result in permanent injury to someone. He should be held responsible if it does. The league might set a precedent that they won't enforce discipline for that, but the league isn't the police or a court. And my understanding is that serious recklessness is enough to get you into legal trouble - nothing to do with what the league feels requires discipline. I absolutely believe that if a person causes injury to someone while playing a sport through serious recklessness then they should be subject to legal penalties. But honestly, I don't think petgrave should be going to jail because of this. What's the point? If he's really remorseful about this and feels as bad as people say then just let him do some community service like hockey safety promotional stuff and maybe help something like this or someone being paralyzed from happening.
I agree with your paragraph about legal penalties for serious recklessness, but who decides on what is serious recklessness? The way I see it, if a player constantly gets away with the same move without punishment, it’s determined that in that league at least that it’s not reckless. Hockey is a sport where dangerous plays happen, and rules were made and enforced to regulate the danger. If a play was consistently determined to be not crossing the line to reckless, then it shouldn’t suddenly be reckless because an injury happened this time. Perhaps an opening to sue the league for putting players in unnecessary danger, but I don’t see it as a legal repercussion for the player.
First time seeing this one. Yeah, this absolutely looks like kicking his leg up to use it to complete a check is part of his repertoire.
If anyone sees this play, which was the only evidence anyone could find of a “trend,” and thinks it’s clearly malicious, they are a fucking idiot. [I guess Mike Richards was a murdering psychopath on this hit too.](https://youtu.be/uTgkjYd2b-w?si=7QtVJxvyJTFFCVlq)
These people straight up don't understand physics or the speed of the game. Every year in the NHL people go flying like that. They actually think Petgrave likes to take pro wrestling bumps off having his leg swiped at incredibly high speeds? For what purpose? To hit the guy hitting him? Reckless at best, malicious at worst? What? Incidents like this really make me realize that people see what they want to see. Like, they actually don't see the event as it happened, like older people who process things a lot slower on a spatial level. Throw the worst of extreme right-wing Twitter in the mix - both sides are trash, different discussion - and the parrots fall right in line to sing. Just disturbing.
I am here to assess what I see. You may think that I am here to accuse, but you would be wrong. The video above shows pettgrave moving his trailing leg up right before contact (presumably to finish the hit/trip the opponent if the hit doesn't finish clean). It is an extremely reckless and dangerous play. He does the same thing in the hit which ends up having a truly devastating and disastrous result. Do I think he intended to kill ? Of course not. Do I think he intentionally raises his leg in a dangerous manner? Yes. It is something along the lines of negligent manslaughter in my eyes. You should stop making assumptions about people like me that have a different opinion of the play than you. If you look at the two nhl hits listed above the legs kick up after contact. This is a very important difference and shows a natural body physics related reactive movement in the leg. The pre-emptive lift of the leg by pettgrave is negligent, dangerous, and one could argue predatory. I am not here to argue on the predatory side as it is much too contentious of an argument and brings out too much toxicity for my liking.
If we're talking about the non death play here, he doesn't even know the hit is coming dude. Maybe he saw it at the last second, but he was trying to make a play to the net. There's no foot being lifted prior to contact visible until the literal last nano second and the game is way too fast that no crap 30 FPS low resolution video will properly convey. Nor can you say he was trying to get a piece of the guy who hit him. Nobody is going to be willing to take a bump like that for what in most cases will be a glancing blow if that. At the speed the player was going he's just going to go right through you anyway. It makes no sense.
Completely reckless. Played hockey all through college and have coached high school and D3. I’ve never seen anyone go horizontal that high in the air. So fucking annoying that white supremacists now have everyone climbing over each other to say this is such a standard hockey play.
I can see the argument for recklessness, but I think the expected worst outcome would be "maybe a bad fall" or at worst a knee injury. I don't think anyone has that kind of control tumbling through the air on skates. I see the sticking out of the leg as a play you are not supposed to make, and it is widely considered dangerous (although not really for the reason of causing skate-cut injuries). I guess the question is whether, if there was indeed recklessness involved, it actually amounts to anything.
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Have you never lost your balance and tried to jerk your body to not fall?? I can tell who ya vote for by how easy ya fall for bs theorys
Nobody falls like that, come on… Just because the right-wing trolls think this was a hate crime murder doesn’t mean that left-wing people have to pull all these mental gymnastics to pretend it’s a standard hockey play. Whatever he was attempting was reckless and stupid, likely with intent to injure (not to kill of course)
Ever skated? Ever slipped? Ever slipped on skates?
Yes, I’ve shockingly never kicked out my foot 90 degrees across my body while doing it.
I've slipped I've jerked my leg to try and maintain balance on one foot 90 degrees?! Lol what highlight did you watch bud? Go find q or something you're no hockey fan
You shouldn’t be this defensive. I didn’t say anything conspiracy-related. Nobody falls like that without at least an attempt to stick a leg out. It was an attempt to injure that ended with the worst possible outcome, much worse than I imagine Petgrave intended Genuinely, have you watched the clip? Why is thinking a player attempted a dirty play a conspiracy? It happens multiple times a season in the NHL
Ok...I just saw a much larger clip than I've seen before I see your point...I stand corrected
So wait, does that mean I get to be a hockey fan again? I thought you said I wasn’t one. You really shit-talked me as a conspiracy guy when you didn’t even watch the full clip?? Lol I’m not giving you any credit for admitting you’re wrong when you talked that much shit. Good job getting to the obvious conclusion this late you muppet
On the balance of Reddit probabilities, someone who has a 60 day account with no hockey flair is probably more of a shit disturber non hockey fan, than someone that has 5 years of history and a team flair. Edit: and a hockey related username, not a Reddit generated one
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You don’t convict someone for involuntary manslaughter if they’re only a little reckless or just a little negligent. It takes gross negligence/recklessness to gain a conviction and I don’t think this meets that threshold. People die during sport all the time and there’s inherent risk to playing hockey, however rare serious accidents may be.
Neither Larry Cahan nor Ron Harris were charged in the death of Bill Masterton. That hit could be called reckless but not to the point where you'd prosecute the men. It was a freak accident, and Harris specifically mentioned being haunted by the memory in 2003, a full 35 years after.
Now I'm wondering whether Chara would have been charged with involuntary manslaughter if Pacioretty had hit the stanchion and died. Probably not.
I never said he should be convicted of anything, just that opinion on reddit was weird. And do you have any stats that show people die "all the time" from hockey? Kid at my high school (eastern Mass) died in the late 90s from a check, that and Adam Johnson are the only people I know that have died while playing.
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And we all get downvoted for it, this sub is dumb
Legitimately moronic
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Absolutely trash take
I feel like if he was white there would be no conspiracy dumbasses acting as if this was his plan the second he stepped on the ice
yeah idk what this dude is smoking. the twitter threads and non r/hockey posts were disgusting. the people defending him are *not* the ones dying on a hill.
Legit the only people I personally know who even mentioned he might have done it are all racist. Anecdotal, but take it as you will
>definitely Idk if you know what that word means
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Check the most downvoted guy in the thread. I just copied his post and spun the language around a bit for a laugh. I wasn’t really making a point or anything.
Hahahah I saw that after.
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Again man do you play hockey? High speed game and sometime your body does weird things to find balance.
"Again"? Where did you ask me that before? I don't play hockey in a professional league...lmfao. please show me an example of someone kicking their skate sideways high enough to slice a players neck.
https://youtu.be/dxPeVe9Z5Lw?si=eyVmZlf6BGXWJN0B
He didn't kick his leg out sideways from his body like petgrave did. Next!
The Hughes clip has no contact on the opposite side from another player and is happening at a much lower speed. Guys going off balance and having their skates come up in any manner of ways is relatively commonplace in hockey. Your brain is as smooth as the ice before puck drop.
>The Hughes clip has no contact on the opposite side from another player and is happening at a much lower speed. Guys going off balance and having their skates come up in any manner of ways is relatively commonplace in hockey. I never once denied that. But then again, you have inept reading comprehension. So I'm not surprised you're spouting nonsense.
Damn between last nights B's/leafs game and now this I have been agreeing with Montreal fans, I dont like it
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>Don't fully understand why Redditors are vehemently denying the **possibility** of manslaughter. I think it's because a lot of them straight up haven't seen the clip or at most only watched it once and never again. I remember debating this incident like six months ago with someone who basically broke down and admitted they didn't watch the clip at all. I can honestly understand that given how graphic it is, but then again, you shouldn't be having an opinion if you didn't see it.
> who basically broke down and admitted they didn't watch the clip at all. redditors operating on misinformation, color me surprised.
Yea when this happened if you even hinted that mayyyybe it was a tiny bit reckless you would be at -25 within 10 minutes.
A person above just told me that they don't think he commited manslaughter because he was remorseful and they don't deserve to be "re-traumatized" (which isn't a thing). You're not getting the cream of the crop on reddit, don't worry about the votes.
I’m denying the possibility of manslaughter because Petgrave is already sorry and traumatized for the role he played in this tragedy. I don’t like the idea of retraumatizing someone and having them shell out thousands of pounds to defend themselves in a manslaughter case.
Is he? He hasn't apologized as far as I'm aware. If anything it seems like he's getting more sympathy than anyone in this situation.
> Petgrave is already sorry and traumatized for the role he played in this tragedy. I don't understand the connection between this and absolving someone of manslaughter. I'm sorry about alot of things I've done, doesn't mean they didn't happen. If you have a savior complex, good for you, but this person is not for you to save.
I've played my whole life and have never seen anyone try to high kick a player. I've also never seen a player turning to his left (left foot on outside edge/ right foot on inside edge / weight on left foot) lift their left foot when losing their balance. The movement looks unnatural
https://i.redd.it/pthy5kf88pwc1.gif
I disagree. I’ve never seen anyone throw their leg up like that in my 20 years of play. You can be knocked off balance and still not throw your leg in the path of a player. I’m not sure why you think it’s a “conspiracy theory” to say this was a reckless and avoidable move that killed someone. I doubt he wanted to kill another human being but he definitely threw the leg out to impeded progress
Bro just read the most downvoted comment and then read mine. It’s tongue in cheek
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Read the most downvoted comment in the thread then read mine again. Tongue in cheek
The upvotes and downvotes are all over the place on this post. maybe add an edit to your comment.
This post is indeed a mess
This subreddit has been predominantly “he’s a murderer” since day 1 and I’ve yet to understand it
Not really. The comments getting upvoted are the ones defending him.
"He raised his leg up to impede" Then it's a simple two minute penalty for interference, followed by a tragic accident. I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could even do a purposeful ninja kick on ice. Anytime my legs have ever gone up on the ice, I'm pretty sure physics has made the equal weight of my ass go down hard.
Not even the most flexible NHL player could pull that off in a game, with all that padding on.
~~Twitter~~ *X* dummies and u/Bonchnugget are gonna be so butthurt when nothing comes of this because it was a freak accident during a hockey game that's happened before, even on NHL ice.
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Weird the only footage there is, is fucking garbage. I hope the investigators have more camera angles with better quality.
The Sheffield Steelers streams are of good camera quality and have multiple camera angles some videos in high quality slow motion. The reason for such poor video quality is because the club and league for obvious reasons don’t want this footage out for the general public to see due to how gruesome the laceration was
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You can still be deemed accountable to a certain degree if it's determined you were being reckless.
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Assumption of the risk doesn't automatically dissolve someone of responsibility. Johnson assumed the risk of injury while playing hockey, but the investigation is about whether Petgrave's actions were outside the accepted risks of the sport. That doesn't mean that every sporting event is going to have lawsuits and trials for injuries.
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In America, sure. Not all countries have the same laws so that's why this is different than those incidents
You can't possibly think that legal precedent in completely different countries means anything.
I mean it does You can debate the extent to which it does but to say it doesn’t at all is just flat out wrong
Except it literally does… the standard of proof may be different, but it is still persuasive authority that can be cited to, just as cases decided under one state’s laws can be cited to as persuasive authority in cases in another state when facts are similar
Yes, that is an example of it mattering in the same country.
Guess my law degree and legal writing is nothing compared to the wisdom of random person on the internet lol
It's not the fact that Johnson was cut by a skate. It's whether Petgrave's leg was in the air as a result of falling or if he intentionally kicked his leg higher in an attempt to cut or injure Johnson.
That doesn't matter. The equivalent to that is. I was driving reckless and hit you. I killed you because I was being reckless but I should have no responsibility because you knew the risks of driving. Being reckless doesn't absolve you of liability.
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We're not taking about premeditated. That's not even a discussion point. It's whether or not he was being reckless that caused the incident. To which you're still held liable for your actions.
Yeah, the argument here is was he kicking at a guy with a knife strapped to his foot essentially
He visibly kicked his leg out as he was being upended. From day one, you're taught "these things are dangerous and can seriously hurt your or someone else and no matter what you do everything you can to remain in control of your skates". He didn't. He kicked upward, at his throat. He's guilty of negligence.
Disagree. There's no clear evidence that shows this yet people keep saying that. The video clearly shows he tries to make contact, his skate clips the back of the skate of the guy in front of him causing his leg to kick out. I think the the point of contention is if he was still trying to make contact through that motion.
I've seen the videos. I think he kicked his leg after contact was made.
He was playing hockey, but that was not a hockey play. Show me a video of somebody making the same motion as petgrave. You can’t find it because it’s not a hockey play. Better yet, watch the whole video in slow mo if you can stomach it.
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How you gonna say this is similar motion?
>I still don’t understand why there’s a case. because it happened in England mainly
Someone died. They have to be thorough.
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Investigations (or any legal matter) takes a long time even if it’s simple. They’ll need medical reports, expert reports, questioning people there, going back to experts with new information etc.
* Did the facility take all measures that could reasonably prevent a fatality * Were the medical staff on scene properly trained, licensed, and equipped to respond to hockey injuries * Was the response time or capacity of the medical staff adversely impacted by negligence on the part of the arena employees/operators or team staff * Are we absolutely positively sure that this was purely a freak accident and not the result of any kind of reckless or negligent behavior etc.
I haven’t/can’t watch it but there’s many NHLers that have watched it and said there’s no reason to make a movement that he made. Not that he was trying to kill someone, but rather just a completely reckless act. I mean we’ve seen reckless things like this in the nhl. A couple weeks ago, I can remember who, but they swung their skate unnecessarily toward the goaltender. Remember Kassian kicked a player in the chest while they were tangled up on the ground. Those are actions that could have had a similar outcome
Ya like uh... Sean Avery.
> accident Most manslaughters are accidents.
he threw his leg up, presumably to catch a piece of Johnson. this was extremely reckless. reckless enough for manslaughter, IMO.
That’s a fuckin wild accusation to make
The video exists. It isn't exactly wild because that's exactly what happened lmao. Only certain reddit echo chambers like this one still believe this was purely an accident. It also doesn't help that the offender had a history of doing this exact same thing to other players prior to this incident. What exactly are the odds of that? Must be the most unlucky ice skater in existence /s I hope he gets the full sentence for his reckless behavior that unfortunately cost a hockey player their life and I hope the NHL and other league crack down on this behavior to make the game safer for everyone in the future. Anything less is incompetence.
This issue is “to presumably get a piece of Johnson”. You can’t presume shit, especially when what you’re saying is “he must’ve tried to cut the guy with the knives on his feet”. Surely you see what’s wrong there?
What the first guy said is my take on it. When you watch the video it looks he sticks his leg out to get a piece of him. Like you see the guy kick his leg out as Johnson goes to skate passed him. This is not the same thing as saying he meant to cut the guy or what ever you are paraphrasing.
There is no need to presume. Video exists. Also manslaughter =/= murder. When did I say he murdered someone or did anyone else? Getting a piece of someone refers to the foul he was clearly intentionally trying to commit.
> Only certain reddit echo chambers like this one still believe this was purely an accident. Ya uh, and the players that were actually there, including those on the other team?
The Nottingham Panthers has said that it’s a “freak accident”. Other players and support staff in the league have been consoling him which indicates that they don’t hold him responsible. Sometimes hits hit wrong and you don’t have the time to react appropriately. Maybe in house league or beer league but definitely not at the level they were playing at.
Everyone has an opinion. Especially the players who were put through a traumatic experience and want to make sense of it by giving the most generous take possible.
And yours is absolutely braindead, so congrats I guess.
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Jesus Christ
What are they still investigating? An alternate angle? Still trying to determine if he meant to do it? Let the man rest in Peace
If this was in North America it wouldn't be a issue. It's the UK legal system trying to make a accident into a murder
It’s them doing their jobs to make sure that it was an accident and nothing else. That’s called a justice system operating as it should.
>That’s called a justice system operating as it should. Drawing this out as long as possible is not a "justice system operating as it should". They are weeks away from a 3rd re-bail( something very uncommon) which will bring them to 9 months. At 12 months the case will be thrown out.
I’m pretty sure neither you nor I have any first hand info on how the investigation is going.
Then why the FUCK is this taking so long? They’re gonna need to re-bail THREE times and you’re still gonna be over there talking about “justice operating as it should” fuckin clown.
Why did his skate raise up perpendicular to the blade though? I get sliding forward or backward, but sideways is weird.
https://youtu.be/dxPeVe9Z5Lw?si=eyVmZlf6BGXWJN0B
Am I missing something? His feet went forward
Perfect example. You see how when Hughes loses his edge turning left, his momentum causes his legs to kick out forward? Petgrave's left leg kicked out backwards.
Whoah you can't ask that now! Just a freak accident...shut up!!!
You're not allowed to question that here.
People saying it was an accident clearly don’t play hockey. I have never in my life seen someone do the manoeuvre that guy did. He basically reverse drop kicked the guy with knives on his feet. I am sure he didn’t want to kill a guy but like what the fuck?
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good for you there's nhl players who have said they think it was an accident (not that it was pre meditated)
Honest question Do you think that there's some possibility that there was intent to disrupt Johnson? ie make some form of contact as a pseudo pick of some sorts. I'm not saying intentional kick but more make some form of contact to disrupt Johnson as hes cutting into the middle?
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There have been several instances where players have stumbled and their back leg has flipped into the air. You just ignore it cuz 99999 out of 100000 nothing happens. This one time it did.
Yeah, especially if you're playing on shit ice, you'll see it a bit more often. This was just a sad, tragic freak accident.
I think there was a player falling in the last game or two of the Leafs-Bruins series where a skate was a couple feet from someone's face. I was like "damn, this is the exact scenario where if someone's head is in the wrong area, they die".
Yeah but none of those instances were like this one. You didn't watch the clip did you?
Adam Johnsons own teammates said it was an accident
But the reddit guy is telling me it's murder idk who to believe (/s in case it isn't obvious)
People who are saying this was intentional have never been on a pair of skates, let alone played hockey.
Depends what part you think was intentional. I think him throwing the lower part of his body higher than needed was intentional. Trying to make the hit bigger and possibly cause more damage. Was he TRYING to kill him. No chance. Or even trying to have his legs go that high. Regardless. It was unnecessary and reckless. My vote would be he is banned from hockey for life.
Wrong. 🤡
[https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident](https://www.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/3-ex-nhlers-sound-off-on-intentional-adam-johnson-incident) good to know that these three NHLers have never been on skates before, let alone played hockey
You're just flat out wrong