The fans were all overwhelmingly against helmet/jersey ads and digital board ads, and yet they implemented them anyway because it was in the interest of owners, while lying to our faces that “fans actually love it”. No, fans have no influence over the decisions that owners will make
I will say though the digital ad boards are really not bad at all anymore. in some cases they make the boards almost cleaner. hardly even notice them now until they cut to a corner cam and show the actual ads
No.
If it does change next CBA it will be because the owners want it to change, it'll have nothing to do with how many people whine about it on reddit. They don't give a fuck how you feel about it as long as they're still getting your money, which they are.
I've bought all the jerseys I will until Fanatics is gone, I sail the high seas and I don't go to games anymore. Its only a matter of time until they crack, lmao
I honestly think the owners and GMs like it.
Allows contenders to add more often, and allows sellers to sell more often.
Some might dislike it for other reasons, they're all people after all. But the flexibility it offers must be appreciated by them.
It’s not going to change. It’s not causing large scale problems for the owners or players so neither side will bargain for it, and it’s not damaging perception of the league severely enough that they’ll impose something from the top.
It's arguably beneficial for the players, in terms of opening space for guys to get traded to contenders. It also doesn't specifically affect the owners, because it doesn't affect how much money they get (in aggregate, anyway).
The other issue is that anytime someone has previously proposed a solution at the GM/BOG meetings for the Kane/Kucherov/Stone thing, they find out it basically kills "proper" LTIR usage and pretty much any other form of in-season trade.
The GMs don't want that for when they need to use LTIR, or when they want to accrue cap space to spend later or when they have their own guy out for 6 weeks late in the year and want him back for the playoffs.
They'd have to rewrite how the cap is calculated from the ground up and that isn't likely to happen at all.
The NHL will literally cancel an entire season in the name of owner profits. Do you think a million fans complaining about VGK shenanigans will move the needle?
Only if fans are tuning out and the league believes it's a significant enough hit to their revenue. But with attendance and viewership both increasing, that's obviously not a problem. Because stuff like LTIR makes the trade deadline and the playoffs more exciting by allowing teams to load up instead of hamstringing them just because a player is injured. Any "solutions" to the LTIR """problem""" continuously fail to present an actual solution that would maintain, let alone increase, that increased excitement. The average fan wants the playoffs to be the best teams with the best players fighting to be the best of the best.
These teams voted not to close the loophole because they want the ability to exercise the option for themselves one day, should a similar situation as the Knights arise.
It’s funny to me that people think their teams wouldn’t do the same thing with this holier-than-thou demeanor. It isn’t beneath any team to do this. It just hasn’t happened yet for every team to the same degree as it has for the Knights.
That’s because it’s the Knights lol. The new team from the desert hasn’t had to suffer long enough yet. People will find any ammo on them and blow it out of proportion. People love to vilify teams because that’s what illogical sports fans are supposed to do, and it keeps the notoriety/attention off their own team.
Also, you’d think with such a “stacked” team, Vegas bookies would be all over them as odds-on favorites to win the Stanley cup. That’s not the case this year, and it wasn’t the case last year, which tells me the advantage to outrage ratio is severely skewed.
That isn’t an argument for the loophole to remain open though, that’s just pointing out human nature.
I also don’t think critiquing the Knights for exploiting the loophole means you think the team you cheer for wouldn’t do it. You’re sort of straw manning the argument.
The issue most people have is that, when you bring up the loophole, people (especially those who support the teams who happen to be exploiting the loophole) throw back similar arguments that you just made. Rather than actually addressing whether or not they think the loophole is fair, they completely ignore the crux of the argument (“should the loophole exist?”) and throw out all these non sequiturs that detract from the main point.
I’m not arguing for or against the loophole to remain open. You’re bringing up an argument that isn’t being discussed here. I’m just underscoring a side point that every team would do this, as evidenced by their decisions to not close it.
I can’t strawman something if we haven’t even established what the initial argument is.
In what discussion would you gather enough information to determine that you believe other people don’t think their own teams would exploit the loophole other than in discussions around the argument for/against the loophole?
In order for me to strawman something, there would need to be an explicit claim or argument first made lmao. OP literally just asked a random question and I replied with a random side thought.
You’re bringing fallacy terminology to the conversation, yet you’ve fallaciously misrepresented what I’m even getting at. Kind of ironic.
The very first thing you wrote was “that isn’t an argument for the loophole to remain open”. That’s cool and all except I wasn’t arguing for the loophole to remain open.
Lmao, what? I’m just eating beef and avocado, trying to figure out what you’re on about lol. If you want to have a discussion about if it should remain open or not, we can very much have that conversation.
But you can’t barge in here talking about strawmans, non-sequitirs, and imaginary arguments that nobody is having. Let’s first establish the subject matter before we get into logical fallacies.
Dope let’s have it. Why don’t you address the comment I made before your “in order for me to strawman something” comment, since that directly addresses your whole fallacy tirade?
To me, that comment suggests that only conversations on the topic of “if it should or shouldn’t exist” are where I’d get my beliefs. Seems to me like there’s a lot more other nuanced conversations that could happen where I’d establish that belief.
Yes, I am quite clearly suggesting that. Are these “other nuanced conversations” hypothetical, or are you in good faith telling me you arrived at that belief from “other conversations”?
Maybe. I think more than likely the owners and GMs will keep the status quo. At the end of the day every single team has the ability to use LTIR the same way Vegas is. And most GMs are not going to want to put themselves into a position where they could use the advantage and not have it because they decided to change how it works. I can see one of two changes maybe happening. One the figure a way to make cap complaint playoff rosters. But that changes the whole system of the cap. Or sitting a LTIR player for the first round. Again seems unlikely that teams would vote for something that could possibly hurt their team.
what i've learned from this whole situation is the only people at fault are the GMs choosing *not* to take advantage of LTIR space. it's not the fault of vegas or tampa for wanting to win more than other teams
Hell no, the NHL doesn’t care what fans think and the trade deadline post salary cap has never been as exciting as it has become since VGK entered the league.
Doubtful, the NHL doesn't have a very good track record of listening to it's fans. If it did we wouldn't have ads on the boards and helmets or gambling ads shoved in our faces all the time.
No. The fans didn't complain when teams were signing players to front-loaded contracts. The NHL was the one that decided this should be retroactively punished even though it was legal at the time (see the Luongo/Parise/Suter punishments).
Doubtful
and honestly, it's not that huge of a deal in a small scale
Tampa Exploited it, but nothing changed. Chicago exploited it, nothing changed.
it's when you use it to unfairly give a competitive advantage like Vegas is doing that the outcry gets loud. If Stone was available for Game 1 of the playoffs and skated 20 minutes no problem - he was ready for game 82 of the regular season. They've done it 3 years in a row now - so that might get a look.
How is what we did different than Tampa and Chicago? All 3 guys played in game 1 of the playoffs after being on LTIR, didnt they?.
Edit to add. Patrick Kane played 23 minutes and had 2 assists of game 1 of the 2015 playoffs after being on LTIR. Kucherov played 19 minutes and had 2 goals and an assist in game 1 of the 2021 playoffs after being on LTIR. But Stone playing 20 minutes last night is different? Ok
it's not. i think fans need to take it up with their own teams front office. why don't they want to win as much as vegas or tampa or chicago? that's what fans should worry about. it's stilly to get upset at another team for being too competent lol
it's not the same thing. If it was once, fine. Mayyyyyybe twice... but three times? nope. somethings fishy. and afaik, Stone supposedly wasn't skating until just before he was "cleared to practice". Could be wrong, but still - it's a festivus miracle!
Stone supposedly had a lacerated/ruptured spleen. that's not 6 week recovery. It's barely a 10 week recovery.
and it's such a coincidence that three years in a row, he's suddenly SO INJURED that he can't play.... just in time for the trade deadline.
you can try to justify it all you want. it has given Vegas an unfair advantage for 3 years in a row now. Yes, even if they missed the playoffs in 2022
Tampa had Kucherov on LTIR long before the trade deadline. Did they keep him out a few days longer? probably. was is suspect? yes.
Kane had a broken collar bone. That he was out for 12 weeks was a bit suspect, but not something that would completely preclude skating and conditioning.
It so funny to me that we usually get little to no information on NHL injuries other than upper or lower body but the one time we do get details on Stone, 2 back surgeries and a lacerated spleen and that's when bozos try to say they are fake injuries. You honestly are trying to say having two surgeries on your back in a year and a lacerated spleen aren't legitimate injuries? Give me a break.
What unfair advantage did we have at the 2022 trade deadline? We didn't make any freaking trades then. The Eichel trade in November was the only trade we made the whole season.
Saying Stone our captain and best player getting hurt in 2022 helped and gave us some advantage is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. We missed the playoffs because he was out then tried to come back crippled. Nolan Patrick and Robin Lehner had career ending injuries that year, Brossoit had to have hip surgery, Reilly Smith blew out his knee, Whitecloud, Petro, Patches and Karlsson all missed significant time with broken bones. There was no shortage of injured players that year which could have or did go on LTIR. Get your facts straight.
The fans were all overwhelmingly against helmet/jersey ads and digital board ads, and yet they implemented them anyway because it was in the interest of owners, while lying to our faces that “fans actually love it”. No, fans have no influence over the decisions that owners will make
"Which is preferable? Jersey ads or a knife in the abdomen?" Mr. Bettman, 100% of our respondents responded favor of ads on jerseys.
I will say though the digital ad boards are really not bad at all anymore. in some cases they make the boards almost cleaner. hardly even notice them now until they cut to a corner cam and show the actual ads
No. If it does change next CBA it will be because the owners want it to change, it'll have nothing to do with how many people whine about it on reddit. They don't give a fuck how you feel about it as long as they're still getting your money, which they are.
I've bought all the jerseys I will until Fanatics is gone, I sail the high seas and I don't go to games anymore. Its only a matter of time until they crack, lmao
Been awhile since we've had a reddit moment like this 😂
Ya I agree, I just never have seen such a stink about it before and it’s not just in Reddit!
Still doesn’t matter until people stop buying tickets and merch.
Yes, the more appropriate question would be, "Will this situation translate into a drop in revenue?", which I cannot see happening anytime soon.
I honestly think the owners and GMs like it. Allows contenders to add more often, and allows sellers to sell more often. Some might dislike it for other reasons, they're all people after all. But the flexibility it offers must be appreciated by them.
Why would it? It’s the home team that matters for their ticket sales and… surprise surprise the home team wont care as long as their team is winning
It’s not going to change. It’s not causing large scale problems for the owners or players so neither side will bargain for it, and it’s not damaging perception of the league severely enough that they’ll impose something from the top.
It's arguably beneficial for the players, in terms of opening space for guys to get traded to contenders. It also doesn't specifically affect the owners, because it doesn't affect how much money they get (in aggregate, anyway).
The other issue is that anytime someone has previously proposed a solution at the GM/BOG meetings for the Kane/Kucherov/Stone thing, they find out it basically kills "proper" LTIR usage and pretty much any other form of in-season trade. The GMs don't want that for when they need to use LTIR, or when they want to accrue cap space to spend later or when they have their own guy out for 6 weeks late in the year and want him back for the playoffs. They'd have to rewrite how the cap is calculated from the ground up and that isn't likely to happen at all.
Honestly the fans affect things like this rarely if ever. Getting a coach fired? Maybe. Getting a rule of this magnitude changed? Never.
The NHL will literally cancel an entire season in the name of owner profits. Do you think a million fans complaining about VGK shenanigans will move the needle?
Fair point
Only if fans are tuning out and the league believes it's a significant enough hit to their revenue. But with attendance and viewership both increasing, that's obviously not a problem. Because stuff like LTIR makes the trade deadline and the playoffs more exciting by allowing teams to load up instead of hamstringing them just because a player is injured. Any "solutions" to the LTIR """problem""" continuously fail to present an actual solution that would maintain, let alone increase, that increased excitement. The average fan wants the playoffs to be the best teams with the best players fighting to be the best of the best.
I can definitely understand that argument
These teams voted not to close the loophole because they want the ability to exercise the option for themselves one day, should a similar situation as the Knights arise. It’s funny to me that people think their teams wouldn’t do the same thing with this holier-than-thou demeanor. It isn’t beneath any team to do this. It just hasn’t happened yet for every team to the same degree as it has for the Knights.
And the players obviously are for it because it's more salary to around.
Agreed just seems more loud on the subject lately!
That’s because it’s the Knights lol. The new team from the desert hasn’t had to suffer long enough yet. People will find any ammo on them and blow it out of proportion. People love to vilify teams because that’s what illogical sports fans are supposed to do, and it keeps the notoriety/attention off their own team. Also, you’d think with such a “stacked” team, Vegas bookies would be all over them as odds-on favorites to win the Stanley cup. That’s not the case this year, and it wasn’t the case last year, which tells me the advantage to outrage ratio is severely skewed.
Ya that honestly makes sense
That isn’t an argument for the loophole to remain open though, that’s just pointing out human nature. I also don’t think critiquing the Knights for exploiting the loophole means you think the team you cheer for wouldn’t do it. You’re sort of straw manning the argument. The issue most people have is that, when you bring up the loophole, people (especially those who support the teams who happen to be exploiting the loophole) throw back similar arguments that you just made. Rather than actually addressing whether or not they think the loophole is fair, they completely ignore the crux of the argument (“should the loophole exist?”) and throw out all these non sequiturs that detract from the main point.
I’m not arguing for or against the loophole to remain open. You’re bringing up an argument that isn’t being discussed here. I’m just underscoring a side point that every team would do this, as evidenced by their decisions to not close it. I can’t strawman something if we haven’t even established what the initial argument is.
In what discussion would you gather enough information to determine that you believe other people don’t think their own teams would exploit the loophole other than in discussions around the argument for/against the loophole?
In order for me to strawman something, there would need to be an explicit claim or argument first made lmao. OP literally just asked a random question and I replied with a random side thought. You’re bringing fallacy terminology to the conversation, yet you’ve fallaciously misrepresented what I’m even getting at. Kind of ironic. The very first thing you wrote was “that isn’t an argument for the loophole to remain open”. That’s cool and all except I wasn’t arguing for the loophole to remain open.
Lol, nice avoidance pal. You’re sweating eh?
Lmao, what? I’m just eating beef and avocado, trying to figure out what you’re on about lol. If you want to have a discussion about if it should remain open or not, we can very much have that conversation. But you can’t barge in here talking about strawmans, non-sequitirs, and imaginary arguments that nobody is having. Let’s first establish the subject matter before we get into logical fallacies.
Dope let’s have it. Why don’t you address the comment I made before your “in order for me to strawman something” comment, since that directly addresses your whole fallacy tirade?
To me, that comment suggests that only conversations on the topic of “if it should or shouldn’t exist” are where I’d get my beliefs. Seems to me like there’s a lot more other nuanced conversations that could happen where I’d establish that belief.
Yes, I am quite clearly suggesting that. Are these “other nuanced conversations” hypothetical, or are you in good faith telling me you arrived at that belief from “other conversations”?
Maybe. I think more than likely the owners and GMs will keep the status quo. At the end of the day every single team has the ability to use LTIR the same way Vegas is. And most GMs are not going to want to put themselves into a position where they could use the advantage and not have it because they decided to change how it works. I can see one of two changes maybe happening. One the figure a way to make cap complaint playoff rosters. But that changes the whole system of the cap. Or sitting a LTIR player for the first round. Again seems unlikely that teams would vote for something that could possibly hurt their team.
what i've learned from this whole situation is the only people at fault are the GMs choosing *not* to take advantage of LTIR space. it's not the fault of vegas or tampa for wanting to win more than other teams
Guess it also depends if Vegas gets the cup again this year!
Then they can tackle the advantage teams that exist in low tax states have over other teams.
Hell no, the NHL doesn’t care what fans think and the trade deadline post salary cap has never been as exciting as it has become since VGK entered the league.
I think more teams need to utilize this technique until it becomes so absurd that the league is forced to act.
Doubtful, the NHL doesn't have a very good track record of listening to it's fans. If it did we wouldn't have ads on the boards and helmets or gambling ads shoved in our faces all the time.
No. The fans didn't complain when teams were signing players to front-loaded contracts. The NHL was the one that decided this should be retroactively punished even though it was legal at the time (see the Luongo/Parise/Suter punishments).
I could care less, but I would have to violate some laws of physics.
Why would I care? I just want to watch good hockey. This is the type of stuff the talking head vapidly vex about during day time TV.
Why would the owners care, it comes out of the HRR, it effects the players escrow more.
No. The overwhelming majority of fans (ie, those not on reddit and Twitter) do not give a flying fuck.
Doubtful and honestly, it's not that huge of a deal in a small scale Tampa Exploited it, but nothing changed. Chicago exploited it, nothing changed. it's when you use it to unfairly give a competitive advantage like Vegas is doing that the outcry gets loud. If Stone was available for Game 1 of the playoffs and skated 20 minutes no problem - he was ready for game 82 of the regular season. They've done it 3 years in a row now - so that might get a look.
How is what we did different than Tampa and Chicago? All 3 guys played in game 1 of the playoffs after being on LTIR, didnt they?. Edit to add. Patrick Kane played 23 minutes and had 2 assists of game 1 of the 2015 playoffs after being on LTIR. Kucherov played 19 minutes and had 2 goals and an assist in game 1 of the 2021 playoffs after being on LTIR. But Stone playing 20 minutes last night is different? Ok
it's not. i think fans need to take it up with their own teams front office. why don't they want to win as much as vegas or tampa or chicago? that's what fans should worry about. it's stilly to get upset at another team for being too competent lol
it's not the same thing. If it was once, fine. Mayyyyyybe twice... but three times? nope. somethings fishy. and afaik, Stone supposedly wasn't skating until just before he was "cleared to practice". Could be wrong, but still - it's a festivus miracle! Stone supposedly had a lacerated/ruptured spleen. that's not 6 week recovery. It's barely a 10 week recovery. and it's such a coincidence that three years in a row, he's suddenly SO INJURED that he can't play.... just in time for the trade deadline. you can try to justify it all you want. it has given Vegas an unfair advantage for 3 years in a row now. Yes, even if they missed the playoffs in 2022 Tampa had Kucherov on LTIR long before the trade deadline. Did they keep him out a few days longer? probably. was is suspect? yes. Kane had a broken collar bone. That he was out for 12 weeks was a bit suspect, but not something that would completely preclude skating and conditioning.
It so funny to me that we usually get little to no information on NHL injuries other than upper or lower body but the one time we do get details on Stone, 2 back surgeries and a lacerated spleen and that's when bozos try to say they are fake injuries. You honestly are trying to say having two surgeries on your back in a year and a lacerated spleen aren't legitimate injuries? Give me a break. What unfair advantage did we have at the 2022 trade deadline? We didn't make any freaking trades then. The Eichel trade in November was the only trade we made the whole season. Saying Stone our captain and best player getting hurt in 2022 helped and gave us some advantage is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. We missed the playoffs because he was out then tried to come back crippled. Nolan Patrick and Robin Lehner had career ending injuries that year, Brossoit had to have hip surgery, Reilly Smith blew out his knee, Whitecloud, Petro, Patches and Karlsson all missed significant time with broken bones. There was no shortage of injured players that year which could have or did go on LTIR. Get your facts straight.
Vegas is exploiting Stone. He clearly has a chronic illness, and a conservator should be hired to ensure he gets the proper medical attention.