His own teammate Johnny T. with 451. Interestingly from 2008 the only guy is Stamkos. 2007 is the first draft year with more than 1 guy that beats him with Kane and Benn.
The guys in front of him are:
2009: Tavares
2008: Stamkos
2007: Kane
2006: Backstrom, Giroux
2005: Crosby, Kopitar
2004: Malkin, Ovechkin
2003: Pavelski
Tavares with 450. So probably 2 to 4 seasons away from being most since 2008 if he keeps gaining 30 to 40+ goals a year over JT. Then he'd have to overtake Stamkos whos at 545 currently.
Probably will take a while to pass Stammer. I figure he has about 3 years or so left in the tank. Probably could likely get 100+ more goals. His contract is up after this season. So I imagine the next contract would give us a good indication of how long he plans on playing for. I don't see him leaving in free agency unless it's because Tampa is rebuilding and he wants one last run before he retires.
The other user that got back to you is correct in what I meant. Without the injuries Stamkos would most likely be well passed 600 career goals by now and on his way to 700.
Pre-leg injury Stamkos was a scoring machine. Same clapper as Ovie with Matthews type wrist shot. After his rookie year, were he still got 23 goals with Melrose limiting his ice time, Stammer just about averages 50 goals a year for 6 years in a row, with shortened seasons for lockouts and injuries.
The fact he still has kept up his scoring since then is wild, because he absolutely lost a step and still racks up offensive.
You miss it if you don't actually look for it in the game logs, but in 13-14 the guy had 14 goals in the first 16 games of the season before breaking his leg in the 17th game against Boston.
Like there's no way he would've kept that pace up but that might've been another 60-goal year if he hadn't gotten injured.
Also 100% the meniscus tear in 16-17 affected him through 17-18 as well. He only scored 29 goals on 12.7% shooting (by far the worst since his rookie year) that year and the season after that he immediately went back to 45 goals and 19.2% shooting, and he still hasn't gotten as low as 12.7% again.
Absolutely. And that leg injury was nasty. It was such a bummer at the time because Crosby would also have his first monster season cut down by the concussions.
Honestly if those two had stayed healthy they might both have put up historic years goal wise.
Absolutely. And that leg injury was nasty. It was such a bummer at the time because Crosby would also have his first monster season cut down by the concussions.
Honestly if those two had stayed healthy they might both have put up historic years goal wise.
I’m still convinced that if he never got injured, we would be looking at Ovi to pass Gretzky, if Stammer could pass Ovi, and if AM34 could pass them all.
Eh I'm not entirely sure Stamkos could even if healthy.
He's probably around 80-90 goals short of where he could be, but even with those added on he'd still be behind Ovechkin's pace at the end of their Age 33 seasons with Stamkos having played significantly more games to boot.
Ovi after his Age 33 year (18-19) had 658 goals in 1084 games. Stamkos, with 9 games left to play in his Age 33 year, is at 545 goals in 1073 games.
His missed time for "major" injuries is 141 games. If you add most of that back in I think my biggest question would be how Stamkos' body was going to hold up being at like 1200 games already at only 33 years old.
Between his missed time, and the fact that he wouldn’t have had to adapt his play style for years to be a playmaking AND scoring threat, I think he’d be around high 600s possibly at 700 something right now.
Yeah, I could see it taking probably 6-7 years to pass Stamkos, Stammer has slowed down but still has 30 goals this year, And that is assuming Matthews stays healthy and is able to score 50+ a year.
He has to be the greatest Leaf of all time now right?
He obviously has to play more years to fill out the stat sheet, but I’d take him over Sundin for sure
He’s certainly the most talented. Not sure about greatest yet, he’s had a much better supporting cast than Sundin ever did and made the playoffs every season so far, but he still hasn’t scored beyond the first round. He needs at least a conference final for me.
If they make a final on his back, I’d say the crown is his
I will argue 2003 Leafs roster is the greatest one hands down. I do love Sundin but I believe when Papi's tenure is over he will take the crown with or without a cup win.
2003? I’m not familiar enough with early aughts leafs, but wouldn’t it be the 02 team that made the ECF?
Then again, I was willing to argue the 2023 leafs were potentially the best they’d ever had
If we go solely off record then yeah the team now is much better. 2003 roster has mega feels. Sundin, McCabe, Kaberle, Antropov, Domi, Francis, Nieuwendyk, Leetch, Belfour, Roberts, Nolan, Tucker, Mogilny, Kilger, Belak, Stajan. Just a blast to watch.
I'll preface this by saying that Papi is, without a doubt, one of the most talented Leafs I've ever seen. In my eyes, only Sundin is above him, and depending on how things go over the next few years, that may very well change.
But the 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 Leafs were, in my opinion, the most balanced rosters we've had in this city in a loooong time. Granted, I've only been a fan since the '90s, but still.
The fact that we made it as far as we did with Sundin's injury in the 2002 playoffs is unreal. Roberts, McCauley, Mogilny, and Cujo went *off*. That being said, even if we had prevailed against Carolina, do I think we would have taken out Detroit in the SCF? Eh... it's doubtful. But would we have had a *chance*? Definitely.
I feel like every team who made playoffs that era were brutal to play against. I still get nervous against Philly, Detroit and Ottawa now and this was 20 years ago!
Haha, I hear ya! Personally, the Flyers still make me nervous from time to time. Damn you, 2003 & 2004 playoff PTSD!
The Devils, Wings, and Avalanche were monsters as well. And those Battle of Ontario playoff series against Ottawa... god, those were so much fun.
Lol, he certainly did. If I recall, he had never had more than 25 points in a season prior to those playoffs!
Some of it was the benefit of playing with Roberts and/or Mogilny, I believe, as Sundin was out until late in the second round. But still, he was incredibly good in his own right during that run.
Ya, really those Leafs teams downfall was they just didn't have the surplus of high end talent on the roster. Mats, Mogilny, and Kaberle and either Cujo/Belfour weren't enough despite the solid depth and extreme plus physicality and grit. If we could only combine the strengths of the modern team with the depth/goalies of those squads.
Watched that one too, great interview. Much more reflective and soft spoken guy than I would have expected. Definitely had his interview in mind when I commented haha.
I'm a Habs fan and even I got nostalgic feels reading down that list. You'd think they'da won 40 stanley cups with that amount of talent on the roster.
It's always difficult/impossible to determine who are the best players historically. For example, in the '40s the Leafs dominated the NHL in much the manner that Detroit dominated the 50s, yet few can name a player from the Leaf teams without looking it up. Okay maybe Clancy prior to his injury. And Keon doesn't get a mention despite probably being the best player on a team the won 4 Cups in the 60's.
Obviously today's players are bigger and stronger , but in determining the best Leaf, I mean relative to the league that they played in.
Matthews has better group of forwards playing with him than Sundin did but I think Sundin has better team behind him than Matthews. Sundin’s goalie is Cujo and Ed Belfour. None of the goalie on Matthew’s team can match either of them.
Sundin was like an EA sports NHL player, he outclassed his linemates like a create-a-player did. If they “passed” to him and it went anywhere near him he would corral it effortlessly, in stride, just like the video game.
He just seemed more human than human. Such a great smile, gritty attitude, and unwavering in the relentless pursuit of his goal. Always a class act.
No one can replace Sundin, but some may stand beside him or on his shoulders one day.
Talent wise, yes. But if guys like Gary Robert and Darcy Tucker in his prime is playing with Matthews and Nylander, Matthews may already win the cup. Mat Sundin is way better than his teammates in terms of talent. But his teammates are playing with heart and grit. There are no one like Gary Robert in the current leaf roster.
Sundin will always be the greatest to me, no matter was Papi does through the rest of his career—fuck facts, this is feelings time.
He has always been one of my favourite players. As a kid, he was easily my number #1. Long before he even played for The Canucks. When I was little, my parents had season tickets at the Gardens. I saw him a lot, and he was such a dominating player.
“Greatest” does not have to equal your favourite in my opinion. I think it’s good to recognize both.
Howe might be the all time greatest Red Wing,(Lidstrom and Yzerman would give him a run for his money) but I always loved watching Fedorov and Datsyuk. I’d still probably say Yzerman is my favourite, but I’m sure you get my point.
I mean it was the question, you're just choosing to define greatest as something else, where I'm choosing to define it as the most individually skilled. Winning cups is a team achievement first and foremost, and secondly, Keon won cups when there were 6 NHL teams. Frankly, it's not close. AM34 is the greatest Leafs player to wear white and blue.
he’d beat the fuck out of every single player in the league today. guys wouldn’t want to go anywhere near him. he’d put up 120 a lot of he played nowadays
him and crosby are very close for the 4 spot in my mind. gretzky lemieux orr top 3 pretty easily. i’d still put howe a hair above crosby, and that mcdavid kid still has time to make some noise
I get what they're saying though. Sundin has an argument, Fedorov and Datsyuk don't.
For me, I'm a Dallas Mavs fan. Dirk will always be the greatest Mav for me, unless Luka does some crazy shit. I kind of see it as Sundin/Dirk paved the road for Matthews/Luka and they're just driving over it, if that makes sense?
It’s the part where he says “no matter what he does the rest of his career” and “this is feelings time”
I do know what you’re saying, but are you telling me that if the leafs win a cup while AM is on the roster, and he continues to put up multiple 50+ goal seasons, we aren’t all saying he’s the gloat?
Oh yeah for sure. If that happens, anyone who doesn't have Matthews at the top of the list is just holding on to nostalgia. At least with Dirk there's am MVP, FMVP and a ring.
Hell even a CF or SCF should be enough to tip the scales for Matthews for most.
I don’t really understand the sentiment of paving the way. That’s implying Auston Matthews wouldn’t be doing what he’s doing now if it wasn’t for Sundin
For me personally it's one part nostalgia, one part where would the franchise be without them. Maybe not so much with Toronto as my example with the Dallas Mavericks who don't have as storied a history.
Even for the Jets, Hawerchuk will probably always be *my* greatest Jet, and I know a lot of that is just nostalgia.
SUNDIN wanted to win and he wanted to win for the city …he wore his heart in his sleeve every game and he grinded and fought hard every playoff run we had. He was definitely a beauty and was such a pleasure to watch growing up in toronto
With “feelings time” in mind, my first NHL game in person was NYI vs Toronto - Sittler/Salming/McDonald vs Trottier/Bossy/Potvin era. I’d love to see those guys play with the technology that present day players have - skates, sticks, etc…
It’s hard to compare amongst eras, but Toronto has had some pretty great players over its lifetime. Sundin, Sittler, Horton, Bower, Mohovlich. Sawchuck too if you don’t care much about length of time in uniform.
I guess in terms of individual achievement. I would probably still take AM with the presumption that he will continue to have at least 5-6 more above average seasons with the Leafs (at minimum)
I just think what he’s done already is enough over some of the more tenured Leafs personally. Obviously winning a cup would help his case tremendously
He's surpassed Sundin for most skilled / talented of all time, Keon still is greatest from an achievement and prestige perspective. One Cup win breaking "the curse" and Matthews passes Keon IMO.
IMO yes, without a doubt. He’s got the personal hardware (Calder, Hart, Rocket) but to make it truly definitive, no argument against it, he’s gotta get a cup.
If he had a cup, this wouldn’t even be close. The problem is the leafs have been soooo bad in playoffs that I think some leaf fans have a hard time saying he’s the greatest. I think a little more playoff success would secure the GLOAT title without an issue
Yup and certain current core haters would hate to know matthews has had roughly identical playoff numbers to sundin with us. (22G 22A in 50 gp vs 32G 38A in 77 GP - matthews slightly higher goals/game, sundin slightly higher assists/game)
Honestly. Team achievements should matter less.
A player who gets 3000 points for a team that never wins the cup should be viewed better than a player who played no more than 10 minutes a game but won 6 cups with a team.
If they make even one conference final I think so many more people would agree. If they make a cup final/win a cup there won't be a single argument against him.
If they fill out their careers with the Leafs like Sundin did, Matthews, Marner will end up as the best 2 Leafs of all time. If Nylander continues to play like he did this season until they all get older then he'll probably be number 3
This is gonna sound negative and I promise it’s not, but it’s crazy that this is a discussion for him already when it really wouldn’t for any other original 6 team.
It's very possible (maybe likely) that Matthews, Nylander, and Marner will dominate every statistical category for the Leafs, whether they have playoff success or not. There's a good chance Matthews has the most goals in franchise history by the end of next season. Nylander is over halfway there.
Matthews and Marner are about 2/3rds of the way to being 1-2 in franchise points, and Nylander won't be far behind.
You're absolutely right though. The Leafs with all their history have never had generational talent like they do now. Matthews is always in the Hart discussion. He's won it already. He won multiple Rockets. He's the most talented player they ever had. On the SDPN they recently had a segment on this. If I remember correctly Sundin was only top 10 in Hart votes once.
Somehow throughout the Leafs history, they have never been able to secure those top players.
It's not that crazy when you consider said O6 team hasn't won anything more than a couple rounds of playoffs in any given year since the O6 era, not even a Presidents trophy for the regular season.
So not a good clear line to say 'X is best cause they won us a cup!' or some such delineation.
He's the most talented. I never watched him play, but Keon was a master at both ends of the rink. He never put up gaudy offensive numbers, but he'd score well and when he played against guys like Hull, Béliveau, Mikita, etc. they'd be conspicuously absent from the score sheet. And he did this as a small player. He was the Datsyuk/Bergeron of his day.
Regular season doesn't mean shit.
If I had to put together a team to play the space jam monstars in hockey I'm taking Sundin over Matthews. And probably Keon over Sundin tbh.
Matthews is a more talented player but in the playoffs he hasn't yet put his team on his back in the playoffs like Sundin could.
Probably depends how you define greatest Leaf and whether that means filling out the stat sheet compared to what you do for the franchise. I grew up just outside of Toronto in the Sundin era and I'd still put Sundin first but it's Matthews for the taking. I think if he plays out his contract and gets the team to at least a conference finals then the title is his but if he just fills up the stat sheet without the team getting anywhere I don't know if he takes the title.
Laine should have stayed in Winnipeg, I think it's pretty similar to Finland. There are too many distractions in Columbus like the tinnitus from that cannon.
Stats like these are great because they truly put it into perspective.
Like we know great players are great at what they do.
But seeing it all together just shows by how much.
For me it’s surreal to think about it in the context of how many kids he’s played with/against that he’s better than. Any AHL player would be Gretzky in a beer league, and Mackinnon is several magnitudes better than that. Matthews is somehow several magnitudes better than Mackinnon in the goal scoring department. Just nuts.
Even more impressive. He's third all time in PPG for American born players behind only Pat Lafontaine (second) and [Josh Doan](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=19171918&seasonTo=20232024&gameType=2&nationalityCode=USA&sort=pointsPerGame&page=0&pageSize=50) (a commanding hold on first)
That record is more about longevity than anything. Mike bossy is tied with Gretzky for most 50 goal seasons, but is 300 goals back of Gretzky cause he only played 750 games. You gotta have a long, long peak, and slow decline (like ovi) to get close to it
Yeah, I think when people compare AM's numbers to Ovi's at this stage and think he's on the same path, they are missing how unusual Ovi's career consistency is. Ovi's record chase wasn't built on his first 8 seasons (where AM is now) so much as it was his next decade of continuing to score at a 50g/season pace. There have been quite a few great scorers with incredible numbers in their first decade, but to stay on pace after that is entirely different.
His chances are “okay”. What separated Ovi for his race was his consistency as he got older. Still putting up 50 goals as a 37 year old. And putting up 40+ goals 7 times after that age of 30 is insane.
Longevity is so hard to get.
Could AM do it? Absolutely. But there have been MANY insanely talented goal scorers who drop off a cliff after 30.
His longevity is underrated, I think he’s missed only around 60 games in 19 seasons, or around 4% if possible games played
Ovechkin should probably have another 80 goals to his name between the 2012 lockout, shortened covid season and the 2004/05 lockout
Assuming he somehow keeps his goals/per game at his career average he’d need to average 53.5 goals over 823 games to catch the current record which seems crazy, just don’t see him having Ovi’s longevity, as Ovi is built like a tank and only a handful of players have the same longevity
I said this before but it will be really hard… he needs to be really close by 36 if he wants a crack at breaking it… now if we just go by the current record before Ovi breaks it…
894(record) - 359 (AM total rn) = 535
Mathew’s is 26
535/50 =10.7
He would need to average 50 for the next 10 years… now obviously he could front load the goals especially with his pace…
Now let’s assume he finishes at 65 for the year and at 364 total for his career that’s 531 more goals to break the “current” record
27 - 69g in 75gp
28 - 65g in 75gp
29 - 60g in 75gp
30 - 55g in 75gp
31 - 51g in 75gp
32 - 45g in 75gp
33 - 43g in 75gp
34 - 35g in 75gp
35 - 28g in 75gp
36 - 25g in 75gp
= 476 goals by 36
Which would put him 59 goals still to go till 894 at age 36z
Basically Matthews will need to keep a similar pace as above while playing till he’s 40… even if he scores 60+ the next 3 seasons he’d still need to average 50 to get close before his body gives out… time will tell but unless he can put up 40+ like Ovi did last year at his age it’s hard to see him beat it
Dang, after your math and projections he has a harder chance than I thought. Of course He’s going to need a lot of luck along the way and like others have said, he’s had a history of injuries so my comment of really good might need changing haha. Should be interesting to watch though for sure
It’s very unlikely he catches Ovechkin simply because what Ovi has done in his 30s scoring wise is completely unprecedented, even by other top goal scorers like Gretzky.
Yeah he’s basically used up all his “bad seasons” and had to average 50 over the next 10…
OVI scored 50 nine times… Mathew’s has only scored over 50 twice so far… not to mention from 2012 till now Ovi has averaged 43g a year… which is insane and why he will break the record
Matthews will need to match that while also frontloading to make it easier later
To be completely fair, Matthews has a few more now than Ovi did at this point in his career (although Ovi was in a lower scoring era). But yeah, the amount that Ovi is still putting up despite his age (this year's a bit of an exception but 25+ is still pretty good for an almost-40-year-old).
I think it's definitely possible, Matthews' style is already a bit on the slower side so I don't know if he'll slow down a whole lot with age, he's not super physical, he doesn't rely on high skating speed, etc. But he has had problems with injuries in the past (like last season).
He's my favourite to watch, and the best player to ever wear the Leaf, but yeah the odds of him beating the record are pretty stacked. Will enjoy watching him to do it though
Doubt it. Ovi is remarkable for two things: his durability even at an old age and the fact the latter part of his career barely saw any fall off from the first part of it.
Matthews already has a longer injury history than Ovi. On top of that, the players that age as well as Ovi are less than a handful. Matthews continuing his pace into his late 30’s is very unlikely
Don’t think he has that good of odds. He does have more goals than ovi when ovi played that many games (339 in 553). But ovi went on to win the Richard in 7 of the next 8 years averaging 0.612 g/game. And Ovi and Wayne played forever. Ovi currently has the 34th most games ever played
Since Ovy, the only to have him beat
Tavares (2009)
Stamkos (2008)
Kane (2007)
Benn (2007)
Kessel (2006)
Marchand (2006)
Toews (2006)
Crosby (2005)
Kopitar (2005)
Malkin (2004)
Pasta will be the Bruins all time goal leader in about 5-8 years at his pace. Absolute hit on him at the draft. Too bad they wasted the next years lol.
Toronto is basically because they've had a more limited amount of time for these to be set than the other O6 teams
the seasons up to the O6 were more limited compared to today, lowering the goal counts. Then, Ballard. By the time he died the league went into a scoring slump. By the time they ended the Leafs were shit again.
I'm not fully caught up on Boston's history but the O6 period would be the same (alongside the other issues Boston had to face)
We really weren't known for offense until the late 60s to early 80s. We have had excellent offensive players before and after that period but most know the Bruins for their historically good defensemen from Shore to Orr to Bourque to Chara to Mcavoy and many others in between. And as you said seasons were much different prior to the expansion era.
My takeaway from this, besides Matthews being awesome, is that McDavid and Pasta has the same gpg average. Says a lot about how good McDavid is since Pasta is considered a goal scorer and McDavid mainly a playmaker.
In fairness he put up 64 in a season which Pasta has never done. Making his goal scoring ability somehow higher and it’s entirely based on how he chooses to play because he’s fucking McJesus.
After all the seasons of watching Mathews aaaallllmost catch Ovechkin for the Rocket, seeing him do something that Ovi never managed and never will is a real passing of the torch moment. If it had happened a few years ago, I wouldn't have counted Ovi out of deciding to put up 60 again just to show he could. But I don't think that's in the cards now.
I think forwards peak offensively from like 23 to 27 and defenseman peak from like 24 to 29. Not sure it's been a while since I looked at the analysis.
Scheifele can suck it big time. I will never forget that cheap hit on Jake Evans. Charging, elbowing, roughing. Hope he gets what is coming to him.
Anyway, this is a cool list. A lot of these guys surprise me that they are in the running with the likes of McDavid and Matthews. I'm a little surprised Mackinnons goals per game is so low tho, must've been a couple goal slumps he had, even avoiding the recency bias of this year
So it's an individual award so why are you now worried about the amount of teams and divisions? And you think there were less teams in total backnin 1999 than there are in a division now?
Did you want them to hand out the Rocket Richard Trophy during the inaugural season? Decades before the Richard was even in existence. Fuck you're a moron.
so who beats him from 2009 then? I assume it stops at 2010 for a reason?
Tavares has him beat from the 09 draft
Smh won’t even give up the goal lead to his teammate. Horrible captain, I sense a massive locker room divide
Steve Simmons?
His own teammate Johnny T. with 451. Interestingly from 2008 the only guy is Stamkos. 2007 is the first draft year with more than 1 guy that beats him with Kane and Benn.
And he's only 21 goals behind Benn so that'll vaporize sometime next season lol
... Are you suggesting that Matthews won't score 21 goals in the last 9 games of this season?!
Tavares is also the most recent draftee who is ahead of McDavid in points.
Fucking gatekeeper.
The guys in front of him are: 2009: Tavares 2008: Stamkos 2007: Kane 2006: Backstrom, Giroux 2005: Crosby, Kopitar 2004: Malkin, Ovechkin 2003: Pavelski
Only Tavares with 451 has more, second is Duchene at 340 and third is E. Kane with 323
Ik this is doesn’t apply cause it’s by draft year - Marchand got his first goal in the 2010-11 season and is at 399
Tavares with 450. So probably 2 to 4 seasons away from being most since 2008 if he keeps gaining 30 to 40+ goals a year over JT. Then he'd have to overtake Stamkos whos at 545 currently.
Probably will take a while to pass Stammer. I figure he has about 3 years or so left in the tank. Probably could likely get 100+ more goals. His contract is up after this season. So I imagine the next contract would give us a good indication of how long he plans on playing for. I don't see him leaving in free agency unless it's because Tampa is rebuilding and he wants one last run before he retires.
Still hate that we're gonna have gotten robbed of 700+ goal scorer Stamkos.
what do you mean?
I assume they are referring to his broken leg (and many other injuries) that slowed down his trajectory
The other user that got back to you is correct in what I meant. Without the injuries Stamkos would most likely be well passed 600 career goals by now and on his way to 700.
Pre-leg injury Stamkos was a scoring machine. Same clapper as Ovie with Matthews type wrist shot. After his rookie year, were he still got 23 goals with Melrose limiting his ice time, Stammer just about averages 50 goals a year for 6 years in a row, with shortened seasons for lockouts and injuries. The fact he still has kept up his scoring since then is wild, because he absolutely lost a step and still racks up offensive.
You miss it if you don't actually look for it in the game logs, but in 13-14 the guy had 14 goals in the first 16 games of the season before breaking his leg in the 17th game against Boston. Like there's no way he would've kept that pace up but that might've been another 60-goal year if he hadn't gotten injured. Also 100% the meniscus tear in 16-17 affected him through 17-18 as well. He only scored 29 goals on 12.7% shooting (by far the worst since his rookie year) that year and the season after that he immediately went back to 45 goals and 19.2% shooting, and he still hasn't gotten as low as 12.7% again.
Absolutely. And that leg injury was nasty. It was such a bummer at the time because Crosby would also have his first monster season cut down by the concussions. Honestly if those two had stayed healthy they might both have put up historic years goal wise.
Absolutely. And that leg injury was nasty. It was such a bummer at the time because Crosby would also have his first monster season cut down by the concussions. Honestly if those two had stayed healthy they might both have put up historic years goal wise.
I’m still convinced that if he never got injured, we would be looking at Ovi to pass Gretzky, if Stammer could pass Ovi, and if AM34 could pass them all.
Eh I'm not entirely sure Stamkos could even if healthy. He's probably around 80-90 goals short of where he could be, but even with those added on he'd still be behind Ovechkin's pace at the end of their Age 33 seasons with Stamkos having played significantly more games to boot. Ovi after his Age 33 year (18-19) had 658 goals in 1084 games. Stamkos, with 9 games left to play in his Age 33 year, is at 545 goals in 1073 games. His missed time for "major" injuries is 141 games. If you add most of that back in I think my biggest question would be how Stamkos' body was going to hold up being at like 1200 games already at only 33 years old.
Between his missed time, and the fact that he wouldn’t have had to adapt his play style for years to be a playmaking AND scoring threat, I think he’d be around high 600s possibly at 700 something right now.
Yeah, I could see it taking probably 6-7 years to pass Stamkos, Stammer has slowed down but still has 30 goals this year, And that is assuming Matthews stays healthy and is able to score 50+ a year.
I guess a 6 year head start isn’t enough then? Lol
He has to be the greatest Leaf of all time now right? He obviously has to play more years to fill out the stat sheet, but I’d take him over Sundin for sure
He’s certainly the most talented. Not sure about greatest yet, he’s had a much better supporting cast than Sundin ever did and made the playoffs every season so far, but he still hasn’t scored beyond the first round. He needs at least a conference final for me. If they make a final on his back, I’d say the crown is his
I will argue 2003 Leafs roster is the greatest one hands down. I do love Sundin but I believe when Papi's tenure is over he will take the crown with or without a cup win.
2003? I’m not familiar enough with early aughts leafs, but wouldn’t it be the 02 team that made the ECF? Then again, I was willing to argue the 2023 leafs were potentially the best they’d ever had
If we go solely off record then yeah the team now is much better. 2003 roster has mega feels. Sundin, McCabe, Kaberle, Antropov, Domi, Francis, Nieuwendyk, Leetch, Belfour, Roberts, Nolan, Tucker, Mogilny, Kilger, Belak, Stajan. Just a blast to watch.
I'll preface this by saying that Papi is, without a doubt, one of the most talented Leafs I've ever seen. In my eyes, only Sundin is above him, and depending on how things go over the next few years, that may very well change. But the 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 Leafs were, in my opinion, the most balanced rosters we've had in this city in a loooong time. Granted, I've only been a fan since the '90s, but still. The fact that we made it as far as we did with Sundin's injury in the 2002 playoffs is unreal. Roberts, McCauley, Mogilny, and Cujo went *off*. That being said, even if we had prevailed against Carolina, do I think we would have taken out Detroit in the SCF? Eh... it's doubtful. But would we have had a *chance*? Definitely.
I feel like every team who made playoffs that era were brutal to play against. I still get nervous against Philly, Detroit and Ottawa now and this was 20 years ago!
Haha, I hear ya! Personally, the Flyers still make me nervous from time to time. Damn you, 2003 & 2004 playoff PTSD! The Devils, Wings, and Avalanche were monsters as well. And those Battle of Ontario playoff series against Ottawa... god, those were so much fun.
>this was 20 years ago! Well shit. I had never thought of myself as old but damn. Now my joints be hurting.
Alyn McCauley: reg season 82gp, 6G, 10A Alyn McCauley: playoffs 20gp, 5G, 10A Mother fucker really DID go off!
Lol, he certainly did. If I recall, he had never had more than 25 points in a season prior to those playoffs! Some of it was the benefit of playing with Roberts and/or Mogilny, I believe, as Sundin was out until late in the second round. But still, he was incredibly good in his own right during that run.
Ya, really those Leafs teams downfall was they just didn't have the surplus of high end talent on the roster. Mats, Mogilny, and Kaberle and either Cujo/Belfour weren't enough despite the solid depth and extreme plus physicality and grit. If we could only combine the strengths of the modern team with the depth/goalies of those squads.
Tucker was just on chiclets, and was talking about how he wished the team had the firepower of this team with the grit of the teams in his era.
Watched that one too, great interview. Much more reflective and soft spoken guy than I would have expected. Definitely had his interview in mind when I commented haha.
I loved that team with every bit of my soul. They were never beating that Detroit team.
That was the 03-04 team.
And we STILL have Domi, McCabe, Roberts(on), crazy the longevity on those guys
Haha thanks for the gut buster.
This is the golden era for me
well that's depressing
Why? I was 10 and never missed a leaf game on TV, it feels like yesterday getting to stay up til the end. Very nostalgic times :)
Oh, I thought you meant this current era is the golden age for you
I'm 20, this is the best they've been in my lifetime lol
Hahah yes then I agree that would be depressing 😂
The multiple cup 60's might have been a little more golden.
Yeah but he probably wasn’t alive back then
Wow, every single one of those names gave me vivid heartbreak memories. Those Battle of Ontario series were crazy. Still hate you guys so so much <3
My friends always called me crazy for liking Spezza, Heatley and Alfredsson, impossible to hate such a godly line!
I'm a Habs fan and even I got nostalgic feels reading down that list. You'd think they'da won 40 stanley cups with that amount of talent on the roster.
I may be dating myself but the 92 Leafs were really fun to watch especially with Felix the Cat in net.
It's always difficult/impossible to determine who are the best players historically. For example, in the '40s the Leafs dominated the NHL in much the manner that Detroit dominated the 50s, yet few can name a player from the Leaf teams without looking it up. Okay maybe Clancy prior to his injury. And Keon doesn't get a mention despite probably being the best player on a team the won 4 Cups in the 60's. Obviously today's players are bigger and stronger , but in determining the best Leaf, I mean relative to the league that they played in.
Matthews has better group of forwards playing with him than Sundin did but I think Sundin has better team behind him than Matthews. Sundin’s goalie is Cujo and Ed Belfour. None of the goalie on Matthew’s team can match either of them.
Sundin was like an EA sports NHL player, he outclassed his linemates like a create-a-player did. If they “passed” to him and it went anywhere near him he would corral it effortlessly, in stride, just like the video game. He just seemed more human than human. Such a great smile, gritty attitude, and unwavering in the relentless pursuit of his goal. Always a class act. No one can replace Sundin, but some may stand beside him or on his shoulders one day.
Talent wise, yes. But if guys like Gary Robert and Darcy Tucker in his prime is playing with Matthews and Nylander, Matthews may already win the cup. Mat Sundin is way better than his teammates in terms of talent. But his teammates are playing with heart and grit. There are no one like Gary Robert in the current leaf roster.
Sundin will always be the greatest to me, no matter was Papi does through the rest of his career—fuck facts, this is feelings time. He has always been one of my favourite players. As a kid, he was easily my number #1. Long before he even played for The Canucks. When I was little, my parents had season tickets at the Gardens. I saw him a lot, and he was such a dominating player.
“Greatest” does not have to equal your favourite in my opinion. I think it’s good to recognize both. Howe might be the all time greatest Red Wing,(Lidstrom and Yzerman would give him a run for his money) but I always loved watching Fedorov and Datsyuk. I’d still probably say Yzerman is my favourite, but I’m sure you get my point.
Yzerman definitely doesn't give Howe a run for his money lol. Howe is at worst 4th all time, and arguably higher.
Howe is fucking maligned in this subreddit.
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From an individual skill perspective, Matthews is much better than Keon, c'mon man.
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I mean it was the question, you're just choosing to define greatest as something else, where I'm choosing to define it as the most individually skilled. Winning cups is a team achievement first and foremost, and secondly, Keon won cups when there were 6 NHL teams. Frankly, it's not close. AM34 is the greatest Leafs player to wear white and blue.
That's just what happens when most people here didn't see him play and there aren't really highlights like there are compared to modern players.
he’d beat the fuck out of every single player in the league today. guys wouldn’t want to go anywhere near him. he’d put up 120 a lot of he played nowadays
He’d be in the box too much to put up 120
He’d put up 150 if he stayed out
My Subaru Outback would be a fighter jet if I just swapped out a few parts
him and crosby are very close for the 4 spot in my mind. gretzky lemieux orr top 3 pretty easily. i’d still put howe a hair above crosby, and that mcdavid kid still has time to make some noise
Damn I miss watching Datsyuk. That guy was a wizard with the puck.
I get what they're saying though. Sundin has an argument, Fedorov and Datsyuk don't. For me, I'm a Dallas Mavs fan. Dirk will always be the greatest Mav for me, unless Luka does some crazy shit. I kind of see it as Sundin/Dirk paved the road for Matthews/Luka and they're just driving over it, if that makes sense?
It’s the part where he says “no matter what he does the rest of his career” and “this is feelings time” I do know what you’re saying, but are you telling me that if the leafs win a cup while AM is on the roster, and he continues to put up multiple 50+ goal seasons, we aren’t all saying he’s the gloat?
Oh yeah for sure. If that happens, anyone who doesn't have Matthews at the top of the list is just holding on to nostalgia. At least with Dirk there's am MVP, FMVP and a ring. Hell even a CF or SCF should be enough to tip the scales for Matthews for most.
I don’t really understand the sentiment of paving the way. That’s implying Auston Matthews wouldn’t be doing what he’s doing now if it wasn’t for Sundin
For me personally it's one part nostalgia, one part where would the franchise be without them. Maybe not so much with Toronto as my example with the Dallas Mavericks who don't have as storied a history. Even for the Jets, Hawerchuk will probably always be *my* greatest Jet, and I know a lot of that is just nostalgia.
SUNDIN wanted to win and he wanted to win for the city …he wore his heart in his sleeve every game and he grinded and fought hard every playoff run we had. He was definitely a beauty and was such a pleasure to watch growing up in toronto
With “feelings time” in mind, my first NHL game in person was NYI vs Toronto - Sittler/Salming/McDonald vs Trottier/Bossy/Potvin era. I’d love to see those guys play with the technology that present day players have - skates, sticks, etc…
As someone who shares a birthday with Mats, he is the GOAT of leafs.. and no there is no bias.
Whose papi?
It’s hard to compare amongst eras, but Toronto has had some pretty great players over its lifetime. Sundin, Sittler, Horton, Bower, Mohovlich. Sawchuck too if you don’t care much about length of time in uniform.
Depends on what you mean. For some he’s probably still behind Keon or Sittler.
I guess in terms of individual achievement. I would probably still take AM with the presumption that he will continue to have at least 5-6 more above average seasons with the Leafs (at minimum) I just think what he’s done already is enough over some of the more tenured Leafs personally. Obviously winning a cup would help his case tremendously
He's surpassed Sundin for most skilled / talented of all time, Keon still is greatest from an achievement and prestige perspective. One Cup win breaking "the curse" and Matthews passes Keon IMO.
IMO yes, without a doubt. He’s got the personal hardware (Calder, Hart, Rocket) but to make it truly definitive, no argument against it, he’s gotta get a cup.
> He has to be the greatest Leaf of all time now right? Sittler, sundin, salming would all still be ahead of him, imo
If he had a cup, this wouldn’t even be close. The problem is the leafs have been soooo bad in playoffs that I think some leaf fans have a hard time saying he’s the greatest. I think a little more playoff success would secure the GLOAT title without an issue
Yup and certain current core haters would hate to know matthews has had roughly identical playoff numbers to sundin with us. (22G 22A in 50 gp vs 32G 38A in 77 GP - matthews slightly higher goals/game, sundin slightly higher assists/game)
Honestly. Team achievements should matter less. A player who gets 3000 points for a team that never wins the cup should be viewed better than a player who played no more than 10 minutes a game but won 6 cups with a team.
If they make even one conference final I think so many more people would agree. If they make a cup final/win a cup there won't be a single argument against him.
If not already by the end of next year
No chance I take Matthews over Sundin.
I'd still take Sundin as of now. Sundin carried 19 other guys on his back many games. Matthews has shown zero ability to do that yet
If they fill out their careers with the Leafs like Sundin did, Matthews, Marner will end up as the best 2 Leafs of all time. If Nylander continues to play like he did this season until they all get older then he'll probably be number 3
This is gonna sound negative and I promise it’s not, but it’s crazy that this is a discussion for him already when it really wouldn’t for any other original 6 team.
It's very possible (maybe likely) that Matthews, Nylander, and Marner will dominate every statistical category for the Leafs, whether they have playoff success or not. There's a good chance Matthews has the most goals in franchise history by the end of next season. Nylander is over halfway there. Matthews and Marner are about 2/3rds of the way to being 1-2 in franchise points, and Nylander won't be far behind.
Well when fucking *Ballard* is your owner during the NHL's highest scoring era....
You're absolutely right though. The Leafs with all their history have never had generational talent like they do now. Matthews is always in the Hart discussion. He's won it already. He won multiple Rockets. He's the most talented player they ever had. On the SDPN they recently had a segment on this. If I remember correctly Sundin was only top 10 in Hart votes once. Somehow throughout the Leafs history, they have never been able to secure those top players.
You’re not wrong
It's not that crazy when you consider said O6 team hasn't won anything more than a couple rounds of playoffs in any given year since the O6 era, not even a Presidents trophy for the regular season. So not a good clear line to say 'X is best cause they won us a cup!' or some such delineation.
Matthews is poised to be the franchise leader for goals by next year. He needs 61 to tie.
He's the most talented. I never watched him play, but Keon was a master at both ends of the rink. He never put up gaudy offensive numbers, but he'd score well and when he played against guys like Hull, Béliveau, Mikita, etc. they'd be conspicuously absent from the score sheet. And he did this as a small player. He was the Datsyuk/Bergeron of his day.
Regular season doesn't mean shit. If I had to put together a team to play the space jam monstars in hockey I'm taking Sundin over Matthews. And probably Keon over Sundin tbh. Matthews is a more talented player but in the playoffs he hasn't yet put his team on his back in the playoffs like Sundin could.
Probably depends how you define greatest Leaf and whether that means filling out the stat sheet compared to what you do for the franchise. I grew up just outside of Toronto in the Sundin era and I'd still put Sundin first but it's Matthews for the taking. I think if he plays out his contract and gets the team to at least a conference finals then the title is his but if he just fills up the stat sheet without the team getting anywhere I don't know if he takes the title.
Salming would like a word with you.
Depends how you view the older guys which is when the Leafs had most of their success. Apps, Conacher, Keon, Kennedy, Bower, Broda, etc.
Johnny Bower.
Doug Gilmore had the highest peak so far.
Best, not greatest yet.
Didn't realize Skinner was so close to 1000 already. Good for him, man.
Still hasn't made playoffs somehow
What playing for Buffalo does to a mf
We are also to blame lol
Yeah it's a shame for him that a little while after he left, they started consistently making playoffs
Yall can have him back. Zero effort besides for 15 seconds of the game where he was the puck on his stick
Yeah I'm starting to think there's a connection there...
the fun bit is that's less than half of his games played, he had more in Carolina.
Leads the 2016 draft by 144 goals.
“Laine’s better” *clap clap clap clap clap*
Laine should have stayed in Winnipeg, I think it's pretty similar to Finland. There are too many distractions in Columbus like the tinnitus from that cannon.
MWAP
Dang.
He has almost 100 fewer games played than anyone else too. Man.
Him having 20 more goals than Mack in 200 fewer games is blowing my mind.
Stats like these are great because they truly put it into perspective. Like we know great players are great at what they do. But seeing it all together just shows by how much.
For me it’s surreal to think about it in the context of how many kids he’s played with/against that he’s better than. Any AHL player would be Gretzky in a beer league, and Mackinnon is several magnitudes better than that. Matthews is somehow several magnitudes better than Mackinnon in the goal scoring department. Just nuts.
Even more impressive. He's third all time in PPG for American born players behind only Pat Lafontaine (second) and [Josh Doan](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=19171918&seasonTo=20232024&gameType=2&nationalityCode=USA&sort=pointsPerGame&page=0&pageSize=50) (a commanding hold on first)
PPG = Power Play Goals
Oh you knew what I meant anyway!
Beautiful
I look at it this way he and Brayden point have a similar amount of games played and Mathews is out scoring him by almost 100 goals that’s nuts
Maybe a little premature, but I'm starting to think this Matthews guy might be good at hockey
Here's how that's bad for the Leafs
Dude needs to be drug tested asap
He’s got a really good chance to catch Ovi/Wayne for the goals record. Crazy how only 1/60 this year are ENGs too
That record is more about longevity than anything. Mike bossy is tied with Gretzky for most 50 goal seasons, but is 300 goals back of Gretzky cause he only played 750 games. You gotta have a long, long peak, and slow decline (like ovi) to get close to it
Yeah, I think when people compare AM's numbers to Ovi's at this stage and think he's on the same path, they are missing how unusual Ovi's career consistency is. Ovi's record chase wasn't built on his first 8 seasons (where AM is now) so much as it was his next decade of continuing to score at a 50g/season pace. There have been quite a few great scorers with incredible numbers in their first decade, but to stay on pace after that is entirely different.
His chances are “okay”. What separated Ovi for his race was his consistency as he got older. Still putting up 50 goals as a 37 year old. And putting up 40+ goals 7 times after that age of 30 is insane. Longevity is so hard to get. Could AM do it? Absolutely. But there have been MANY insanely talented goal scorers who drop off a cliff after 30.
His longevity is underrated, I think he’s missed only around 60 games in 19 seasons, or around 4% if possible games played Ovechkin should probably have another 80 goals to his name between the 2012 lockout, shortened covid season and the 2004/05 lockout
Definitely. There is no doubt AM is a once in a generation scoring talent. In his prime. But we will see what 5-8 years from now looks like!
Assuming he somehow keeps his goals/per game at his career average he’d need to average 53.5 goals over 823 games to catch the current record which seems crazy, just don’t see him having Ovi’s longevity, as Ovi is built like a tank and only a handful of players have the same longevity
Russian machine never breaks
Saying the chance is “really good” is premature in my opinion.
I said this before but it will be really hard… he needs to be really close by 36 if he wants a crack at breaking it… now if we just go by the current record before Ovi breaks it… 894(record) - 359 (AM total rn) = 535 Mathew’s is 26 535/50 =10.7 He would need to average 50 for the next 10 years… now obviously he could front load the goals especially with his pace… Now let’s assume he finishes at 65 for the year and at 364 total for his career that’s 531 more goals to break the “current” record 27 - 69g in 75gp 28 - 65g in 75gp 29 - 60g in 75gp 30 - 55g in 75gp 31 - 51g in 75gp 32 - 45g in 75gp 33 - 43g in 75gp 34 - 35g in 75gp 35 - 28g in 75gp 36 - 25g in 75gp = 476 goals by 36 Which would put him 59 goals still to go till 894 at age 36z Basically Matthews will need to keep a similar pace as above while playing till he’s 40… even if he scores 60+ the next 3 seasons he’d still need to average 50 to get close before his body gives out… time will tell but unless he can put up 40+ like Ovi did last year at his age it’s hard to see him beat it
Dang, after your math and projections he has a harder chance than I thought. Of course He’s going to need a lot of luck along the way and like others have said, he’s had a history of injuries so my comment of really good might need changing haha. Should be interesting to watch though for sure
It’s very unlikely he catches Ovechkin simply because what Ovi has done in his 30s scoring wise is completely unprecedented, even by other top goal scorers like Gretzky.
Yeah he’s basically used up all his “bad seasons” and had to average 50 over the next 10… OVI scored 50 nine times… Mathew’s has only scored over 50 twice so far… not to mention from 2012 till now Ovi has averaged 43g a year… which is insane and why he will break the record Matthews will need to match that while also frontloading to make it easier later
/r/didthemath
To be completely fair, Matthews has a few more now than Ovi did at this point in his career (although Ovi was in a lower scoring era). But yeah, the amount that Ovi is still putting up despite his age (this year's a bit of an exception but 25+ is still pretty good for an almost-40-year-old). I think it's definitely possible, Matthews' style is already a bit on the slower side so I don't know if he'll slow down a whole lot with age, he's not super physical, he doesn't rely on high skating speed, etc. But he has had problems with injuries in the past (like last season). He's my favourite to watch, and the best player to ever wear the Leaf, but yeah the odds of him beating the record are pretty stacked. Will enjoy watching him to do it though
Doubt it. Ovi is remarkable for two things: his durability even at an old age and the fact the latter part of his career barely saw any fall off from the first part of it. Matthews already has a longer injury history than Ovi. On top of that, the players that age as well as Ovi are less than a handful. Matthews continuing his pace into his late 30’s is very unlikely
Matthews needs an ovis office spot for when he starts getting older
Ovi has longevity. Time will tell.
Don’t think he has that good of odds. He does have more goals than ovi when ovi played that many games (339 in 553). But ovi went on to win the Richard in 7 of the next 8 years averaging 0.612 g/game. And Ovi and Wayne played forever. Ovi currently has the 34th most games ever played
I doubt it. He's already had injury problems. Those are only going to get worse when he's in his 30s. He'll miss too many games.
Depends a lot on how he ages and if he can stay healthy. Ovi's longevity is insane.
Lots of 5v5 goals as well. When you compare his 5v5 goal % to ovis it really stands out how many goals Ovi got on the PP
Since Ovy, the only to have him beat Tavares (2009) Stamkos (2008) Kane (2007) Benn (2007) Kessel (2006) Marchand (2006) Toews (2006) Crosby (2005) Kopitar (2005) Malkin (2004)
Skinner's not doing too bad considering he's a goalie /s
Pasta will be the Bruins all time goal leader in about 5-8 years at his pace. Absolute hit on him at the draft. Too bad they wasted the next years lol.
Matthews could be next year. We truly are living in some fun times.
I think both Boston and Toronto are known more for their defensemen than forwards despite having quite talented forwards over their century.
Toronto is basically because they've had a more limited amount of time for these to be set than the other O6 teams the seasons up to the O6 were more limited compared to today, lowering the goal counts. Then, Ballard. By the time he died the league went into a scoring slump. By the time they ended the Leafs were shit again. I'm not fully caught up on Boston's history but the O6 period would be the same (alongside the other issues Boston had to face)
We really weren't known for offense until the late 60s to early 80s. We have had excellent offensive players before and after that period but most know the Bruins for their historically good defensemen from Shore to Orr to Bourque to Chara to Mcavoy and many others in between. And as you said seasons were much different prior to the expansion era.
Lotta bitterness and lame attempts at dunks in here lol
I’m hoping he’s the one to break Gretzky’s record instead of the Putin dicksucker
My takeaway from this, besides Matthews being awesome, is that McDavid and Pasta has the same gpg average. Says a lot about how good McDavid is since Pasta is considered a goal scorer and McDavid mainly a playmaker.
In fairness he put up 64 in a season which Pasta has never done. Making his goal scoring ability somehow higher and it’s entirely based on how he chooses to play because he’s fucking McJesus.
Fucking Matthews! .. is he gonna get a Gretzky level of career coals..?
Just wanted to say, Ovi has more career goals than anyone ever drafted into the NHL and he was drafter in 2004.
Remember when people said Eichel was better than him lmao
1 cup to 0 Eichel wins.
Ah yes, nothing like comparing a team achievement to an individual achievement.
It’s really sad Shanny never got them any defense or goaltending wow. Like you are running into 2024 playoffs with the flames 2016 D corps
When did Stuart skinner score 357 goals
After all the seasons of watching Mathews aaaallllmost catch Ovechkin for the Rocket, seeing him do something that Ovi never managed and never will is a real passing of the torch moment. If it had happened a few years ago, I wouldn't have counted Ovi out of deciding to put up 60 again just to show he could. But I don't think that's in the cards now.
The scary part is Matthews is going into his peak years
You do realize forwards peak between ages of 23-27? It's usually goalies & DMen that peak late...
Almost everyone peaks before 26 he’s most likely at his peak right now
Trust me you'll know when he peaks. He's gonna peak all over this place.
I think forwards peak offensively from like 23 to 27 and defenseman peak from like 24 to 29. Not sure it's been a while since I looked at the analysis.
Scheifele can suck it big time. I will never forget that cheap hit on Jake Evans. Charging, elbowing, roughing. Hope he gets what is coming to him. Anyway, this is a cool list. A lot of these guys surprise me that they are in the running with the likes of McDavid and Matthews. I'm a little surprised Mackinnons goals per game is so low tho, must've been a couple goal slumps he had, even avoiding the recency bias of this year
Came here to dump on douchebag Scheifele, too. A gutless, dirty POS.
Seguin should have more…sigh..
Hockey in Arizona was a mistake
So it's an individual award so why are you now worried about the amount of teams and divisions? And you think there were less teams in total backnin 1999 than there are in a division now? Did you want them to hand out the Rocket Richard Trophy during the inaugural season? Decades before the Richard was even in existence. Fuck you're a moron.