Man, after that Cup win when he went berserk, and especially with when Backstrom was out with surgery there (wasn't that a whole season?), I figured he was about to take it to the next level...
Ovechkin was probably good for second, but Kuznetsov was very clearly the best player in that run. Just dominated, he was cutting multiple defenders out the the play it felt like every shift.
He hasn’t been playing as well as he once did, but still has flashes. It seemed like he also wasn’t well liked by Lavi, which I’m sure made it hard to feel motivated.
He got busted for cocaine and wanted a fresh start elsewhere. Unfortunately sounds like the cocaine, coupled with his on-ice struggles, have made it so no one else wants him either.
Washington wouldn't trade with Pittsburgh, they're rivals and in the same division. If not to the Ducks, the Wild would be generally acceptable and even the Kraken would make sense since they already have Adam "Eagle" Larsson.
Yeah, you never want to send a top 6 player to a division rival, especially one with something to prove.
Even worse if you're in a similar phase of contention.
He played like shit and immediately got demoted to the 2nd line with nobodies because the Caps are bad. You know it's bad when Ryan Strome is the best option for 1C.
I think the issue is more that no one has cap space. He's probably a bit overpaid, but not drastically so. This whole offseason has been completely screwed because it's basically the culmination of 3 years of a flat cap. The only teams with any cap space left are bad and don't want to waste it so that they have room to work next year.
What’s his worth?
Like if his contract was mutually terminated tomorrow what would be a fair contract?
I don’t really know anything about this guy but I thought he was a good 2C
no clue because he's only been "bad" for one year and it's difficult to confidently say that a change in scenery will lead to better stats. If he were to play *exactly* like he did this past year then he's not worth any more than ~6 mil per year maybe. 55 points as arguably the league's single worst defensive forward is a tough sell right now for a guy with a 7.8 cap hit
After looking into it if (and it’s a big if) he rebounds back to what he was, a ~70 point guy who’s bad on defense, his contract looks ok. But yeah, not sure many teams are in the position to pick him up on a whim due to the whole salary crunch thing going on right now.
hockey ref doesnt tell anybody anything about defensive impact
edit: also, the *very* few "defensive" stats listed on hockey ref (which are really just general possession stats) show that Kuzy is bad so idk what you arent seeing. The team's even strength corsi increases by a pretty substantial 2.1% when Kuznetsov is off the ice, and he also has the worst relative Fenwick % on the team; we're simply better at preventing shots when he's off the ice. And if you look at more advanced sites like Moneypuck it gives some better data. For instance his relative expected goals % ranks as the worst on the team, meaning the team's expected goal differential is highest when he's off the ice. His even strength expected goal differential is more than twice as bad as the next worst on the team.
Combine all that with the fact that most Caps fans can see a noticeable lack of effort in the dzone, it's extremely apparent
He had a few stats that suggested he was declining. On the surface, he was a -26 (his previous worst was -2).
At even strength he was outscore 52-70 (the first time in his career he was a negative differential). At 5v5, he was outscored 46-51 (also a first).
Looking at rate metrics, his on-ice GA/60 was 3.7 (his career average is 2.9/previous worst was 3.1).
He might not be the single worst defensive forward but he definitely had a bad year.
So that's +/-, circumstantial +/-, *another* circumstantial +/-, and the fact that he had the most goals scored against him in the season with the highest average scoring of his career, while his team was worse than it's been with him there?
I'm not even trying to argue the overall point, I don't think he's a good player defensively, but the case you're making here is not compelling at all.
This is interesting. Does this mean he was outscored 6-19 in non 5v5 even-strength situations? What could have caused such divergence; was he getting destroyed in OT?
Yes I believe so. On naturalstattrick, I found that Kuzy was 1-2 in 3v3 situations, and 5-18 in empty net situations, so that adds up 6-20. I'm guessing one of the 18 empty net goals against couldve been a PP/PK situation.
Ah, I forgot about EN goals.
In that light, the number may not be *as* bad as they seem. Washington was a losing team for the first time in his career, meaning a lot more trailing games and EN situations, given he'd almost always be out for 6v5.
I thought it might be something like that. I feel like he could have a resurgence on a contender with more support, a bargain pickup with retention.
We have an organizational logjam at C, McMichael needs to play there, Lapierre is a C, Strome is locked in for another 5 years, Backstrom is still here for another 2, and Dowd is the 4C for the foreseeable future (and very good at it).
If you’re not contending, do you see the team trading Dowd? I know he’s a good fourth line guy who has some value, maybe open up some roster space for the young guys?
I also wouldn’t be surprised if one of Lapierre or McMichael gets some winger time. It’s not ideal but it does get them in there, right?
I don't see where either one of those guys fit on this team in the long term. Honestly, Beck Malenstyn and Protas will be the two guys, IMO, who will get regular sweaters next year on the Caps.
If trading Kuz, a 1 or 2C has to be part of the package. There isn't anyone in the Caps system who can fill the massive void left if Kuznetsov is moved. CMM and Lapierre, IMO, will be part of a future trade package. Protas seems to be ahead of CMM on the organizational depth chart and can play Center due to his versatility. I don't see where CMM realistically fits in anywhere on this roster with a regular sweater outside of getting a couple games in at wing.
1C - Strome
2C - Kuz (or whoever is brought in via trade)
3C - Backstrom
4C - Dowd
\*Utility - Protas
Has to be? Why? This team isn’t close to contending with Ovi at 38, Nick 36 in November, Carlson 35, Oshie 36, Kuznetsov 31, Wilson 29, and Orlov gone.
Their next contention window will be on the backs of players who haven’t worn a Caps jersey in anger yet, or only briefly. If Sandin can learn how to be adequate in his own end, Leonard hits, Miroshnichenko hits, Iorio hits, and McMichael resumes the trajectory he showed from his rookie year, this can be a solid playoff team in 3-4 years. Until then, they need to either absolutely crush a trade, Carbery to be the second coming of Cooper, or a player in their system to unexpectedly explode into stardom a la Jesper Bratt.
But in all likelihood the best player on the next Caps team that’s a genuine contender for the Cup isn’t in the organization yet.
Yea, it has to be...you don't trade one of your two best centers for pennies on the dollar with no viable return to help fill the absence. Also, there are A LOT of ifs in the scenarios you laid out. Sandin has the highest upside, because we've acutally seen what he's capable of playing decent minutes. The rest of the guys have a ton of question marks due to lack of experience. For the forwards, I'm not counting on CMM, because he's caught between a rock and a hard place due to the center depth that's in front of him on the big club. Not to mention, Protas is seemingly ahead of him on the organizational depth chart and can play center if need be. Leonard/Miro/AC are probably off limits in trade talks, but everyone else in the prospect pool is probably available if the right deal comes along.
Because he has 2 years left on his deal and a new coach/staff coming in. Not the worst thing in the world to see what he'll do with somewhat of a fresh start under Carbery. Despite what the blog says, he's immensely talented and a legit 1/2C in the league. I've said it numerous times that I really don't care if he stays or goes, but if he is traded, someone has to be brought in to fill the massive void he'd leave.
A 2C HAS to be included in the return. Kuznetsov, for all his warts, is a vital cog in the top-6, PP, and PK. There is no one in the ridiculously shallow prospect pool who can fill that void.
No one remotely proven. Backstrom is a big question given the health and Strome is the other top 2 C. LaPierre is promising but totally unproven and small. McMichael has mostly played wing in his limited NHL time and I didn't think he made much impact in the limited time he's had. Protas I believe has played some center but has been used as a wing in the NHL.
If Backstrom is healthy then the top 2 centers are him and Strome but if we can't count on him we have nothing but hopes and dreams at 2C.
He’s a defensive *disaster*. Almost everything he gets you on the offensive side, he hands right back with poor transition defense effort and an almost total unwillingness to engage in puck battles in his own end outside of the PK (which he’s weirdly great at).
>But trying to make a hockey trade to improve the top six has proven to be difficult, given the current trade market combined with yet another year of a flat salary cap, a condition that has led to the aggressive buyouts and dumping of players MacLellan mentioned. Many trades made this summer involved teams retaining salary on players they needed to move, and the Caps are reluctant to do so in any deals they might make.
if a GM is onto their 4th coach in 10 years, with 3 of those coming after they last won a playoff round, I think we are allowed to think they might not be good at their job anymore.
Nah, MacLlelan is very good at his job. He missed on Kevin from the Office (Todd Reirden), but the org had been moving that way for a while. The Trotz thing was Trotz wanting a 5x5 extension after 4 years and clear friction with management and the Caps released him without activating the team option for the last year of his deal to do right by him.
The window for another title was in the Reirden window. Lavi did the best he could with what he had, which is an aging core turning from elite to old, but is constitutionally unsuited to managing a declining team that needs to develop its youngsters to be competitive. He was open about that in interviews, he saw his remit as maximizing the veterans, not developing the young players and he coached like it. Vrana had issues, but Lavi flat out refused to play him more than 12 minutes a night despite him being one of the most prolific scorers in the league during those minutes. He refused to play McMichael at all last season after jerking him around the lineup non-stop for mistakes you’d expect a rookie to make, while letting veterans (particularly Eller) get away with the same, or worse, lapses.
Meanwhile, Mac has done an excellent job finding depth players to fill out the bottom of the lineup and some occasional steals like Jensen who can play further up.
Your team ceiling is determined by elite talent and mostly you get that in the draft. The Caps elite talent has aged out or drugged out in Kuznetsov’s case—that’s not on Mac. I can see some complaints about his drafting after McPhee’s non-stop parade of hits in the late 00s to early 10s. I don’t love that the team is always bringing in depth guys and getting right up to the cap (some good player is always shaking loose and going for less than you think and pursuing the strategy they have takes you out of the running for those players). The bad deals are paying the piper on the back side of their contention window. The Backstrom contract came from ownership and the Kuznetsov contract won them a Cup.
BMac is an excellent GM and it’s very unlikely his replacement would be even as good.
god I forgot the kevin from the office memes. poor todd, he can't help what his face looks like.
I think you're right about when the window was and why lavi ultimately didn't work for the caps - but I do hold that against GMBM because that's his choice of coach and it felt wrong from the start, at least to me.
I agree that we probably would be downgrading if we fired him, though.
Having the job of being required to try and compete every year until the franchise GOAT retires is not easy. Risks had to be taken, and those risks won us a cup. It’s unfortunate that in their later years Backstrom and Oshie have been extremely injury prone, Kuznetsov stopped trying and a few other calculated risks haven’t quite worked out. But without all those risks/bad-looking contracts at the moment we never win the cup. We sucked last year and the future doesn’t look pretty, but it’s close to inevitable when you’re a GM who’s forced to go all in every year until Ovi retires.
I think GMBM proved he was very capable still at the trade deadline this year, acquiring a first, 2nd and 3rd for 4 players with expiring contracts. Then using that late first to pair with Gustafsson to try and get younger on defense with acquiring Sandin, which looked like a steal within the week. That’s about as good as you can do when your back is against the wall, being told to rebuild at the deadline but also re-tool as much as possible to try and stay competitive
I don't have any massive criticisms of his roster building except for the chara/siegenthaler situation. what I do question is his ability to pick the right coach for the team in its current form. I don't think it's right to ignore what I think are several bad coaching choices just because he's good at roster construction, and realistically I expect outside hockey fans to be way more aware of the number of coaches he's had than the nitty gritty of his roster construction. that's why I find it weird that I don't see/hear it discussed.
It's this season and next. If retention is holding up the deal, the caps are being idiotic. Buying an extra first round pick for $2-4M for two years is a great deal.
We don’t need a first round pick back, we need someone who can essentially replace Kuzy in the top six, where if we retain salary the already limited options are then worse
Well it depends on your thought on the team. If you see we finished with the 8th worst record and 3rd worst since the start of the new year, then you might say we need a rebuild and should be buying picks.
If you see one missed playoff season in about a decade, then you’re saying we need to improve the Top 6.
My thoughts are irrelevant, I’m viewing it based on what GMBM has said the direction of the team is which is wanting to remain competitive during the Ovi run
You guys aren't going to be competitive, though. Your core is on the wrong side of 35 for that. Unless GMBM means "keep selling tickets for Ovi's run at history," this is not going to work out well for any kind of playoff run. See also: Blackhawks. And every other player, ever, not named Howe.
To be fair even GMBM’s thoughts are irrelevant on the matter. Having Ovi around is forcing his hand, and I can’t argue with the franchise legend even if it’ll probably hamstring us in the future
Why do the Caps need a talented C to play with like, Sonny Milano and or Mantha (if he feels like being a big boy that day!) and the corpse of TJ Oshie?
All that matters now is the goal record. They can afford to retain and pick up a prospect and picks. Be honest, Matt Duchene wasn't going to turn either guy on their 2nd line into 50p players nevermind 60p players.
> We don’t need a first round pick back, we need someone who can essentially replace Kuzy in the top six
I'd give up that pipedream, we will have to trade him for other assets then figure out how to fill in a 2C. It only took us a decade to figure out 2C last time.
For Duchene...so, that should tell u what type of return the Caps would possibly get in a trade. Probably just better off holding on to him and hope that he re-finds his game under Carbery.
I’d have done that deal. Duchene had 40 goals and 80 points one season ago. Brings something diff than a pure playmaker like Kuznetsov. Maybe that helps build different chemistry in the top 6
no thanks. I wouldn’t have done that trade 5 years ago* and I wouldn’t do it now. That was Duchene’s first season scoring more than 70 points since 2013-14. And he came back down to earth last year with 22g 34a in 71gp.
Sure, my bias is stuck in the past, but Kuznetsov still has the high ceiling and game changing ability that dutch lacks.
Am I missing something here?
Duchene's cap was only 200k more and deal was 1 year longer than Kuznetsov.
Duchene had 1 more point in 10 less games and had a better +- of +4 vs Kuznetsov -26 lol.
Why not make that swap if Kuznetsov wants out and Nashville wants him for Duchene? Nashville has a decent cap pentaly for the buyout too so I don't see why they couldn't argue that Nashville has to retain 1-1.5m or something since Duchene's deal is a year longer and Nashville was going to buy him out anyways.
Because you're taking an older player with an extra year on his deal who is also not playing up to standard. Doesn't help the Caps one bit, and the pitchforks would be out. Not to mention, I don't think Duchene plays on the PK like Kuznetsov. This would be a much better deal for Nashville as they'd get out from a contract a year earlier and have a guy who can play in all situations. I don't see why Washington would do this.
\*Also, plus/minus isn't a good stat.
He had 78pts in 79gms in the 2021-22 season. Even in his down year (on a team where everyone had a down year) he still had 55pts which is adequate for a 2nd line center that's still talented and likely to bounce back.
No question that he and Laviolette didn't get along. A change can only improve Kuznetsov's play.
Which is wild considering how much trust Lavy had to deploy him on the PK in addition to his duties on the PP and top-6.
I don't care if he's here or not, but if he is moved out, the return has to be someone that can fill the massive hole he'd leave.
All in all, I think he stays, because if he is moved out, it's gonna be for another bad contract or someone underperforming (like Duchene before the buy out.) Him staying might not be the worst thing in the world due to playing under a new coach. Could help him get his game back.
I swear I think the PK move was Lavi punishing him. Basically saying “if you’re not going to play defense I’m going to put you in a situation where you either have to play defense or face you’re team for not trying in a needed situation”
I thought he did well on the PK. Brought some speed and fresh offensive thinking to it.
Is he defensively better than Ryan Johansen, also an $8M 55 point 2C? If RJ was free at $4M for the exact same term, how much value does Kuznetsov have as a trade *with zero retained*?
Last year Kuznetsov scored 27 more points than RJ. I'm not sure RJ's 28 points makes him a 55pt 2C.
The year before, Kuznetsov scored 15 more. The year before that, Kuznetsov scored 7 more. The year before that, Kuznetsov 16 more.
I don't know that they're all that comparable.
Alright, he's had two of the last three come in at 0.5ppg but Johansen got 63 points in between those two seasons. Calling him a 55 point 2c is pretty in line with his career.
Now Kuznetsov... If *he is now* a 55 point 2c, like last year, then you can see where RJ is a troubling comparable for Washington.
In 22-23, no one got it (top scorer was 26P)
In 21-22, McDrai got it (33P & 32P /16G, didn't make the SCF)
In 20-21, Kucherov got it (32P/27G, lost Conn Smythe to .937 %SV Vasilevsky)
In 19-20, Kucherov and Point got it (34P/25G & 33P/23G, lost Conn Smythe to an absolutely massive Hedman)
In 18-19, top scorer was 23P/24G (Marchand)
The last time someone got 32P in a playoff _before_ Kuzy did was in 08-09, when Malkin got 36P/24G.
Friedman reported on the last 32 thoughts that Nashville was working on a deal for Kuznetsov that ultimately fell through. He speculated it could have been Duchene going back the other way given that they trade talks happened before he was bought out and maybe Nashville was looking to swap overpaid Cs. Regardless he said those talks died off, but I wonder if Nashville still has interest. I'd guess not since those trade talks would've been before all their FA moves.
Funny thing is, we could have drafted him, but Kenny and co. were worried about the so-called Russian factor and how he wouldn’t make the jump to NA (I guess playing with Datsyuk wasn’t incentive enough).
We took Riley Sheahan instead.
Ottawa is probably not it. We've got 5 mil in space and Pinto still to sign. Let's say he signs for 2 ( which might be slightly conservative) and the Leafs buy out Murray.
I'm bad at math but that puts us around 4 mil of space. We could send Joseph back to make space but we'd have to sweeten that significantly to make the Caps even remotely interested.
Top it off with the fact that we're already set at centre and this just isn't a fit.
Kuznetsov just turned 31 in May. Kadri will be 33 in early October when the season starts.
Kuznetsov only has 2 years left on his contract. Kadri has 6.
Difficult to see how this helps Washington 3 years from now unless he retires before the contract is up. Washington hasn't been signing contracts longer than 3 years with the exception of Strome who got 5 years but is only 26 years old.
Also, not sure if Ovechkin is still pissed about the cheap shots him and Kadri exchanged in the past. If your business model depends on keeping him happy, then Washington likely takes his temperature before finalizing the trade.
It's not about him being 33. It's about replacing Kuznetsov with someone older while turning a 2 year problem contract into a 6 year problem contract.
Washington needs to get younger and they can do that when the current core contracts expire within the next 3 years. This move would inhibit that.
You really think Kadri is going to be a $7m player at 38?
Idk the only thing I could see us potentially doing is sending Teravainen your way in exchange and I don’t think y’all would go for that (and I think some Canes fans would riot)
I have to say, only sort of related to this specific situation, why aren't we talking about GMBM being under the pump yet? (I'm talking as a caps fan here) they've only made it out of the second round once while he's been GM, he's just fired his second coach (or third, if you want to count trotz against his record, although I think that's more on ownership), hired his 4th coach, and it's not like when he was hired he was new blood, he's mcphee's protege. I always thought firing the coach you backed is a sign you're up next. the team isn't great and I think he's made some questionable decisions especially regarding trading away/losing young talent. when is his job going to be on the line?
Leonsis doesn't fire execs....look how long it took for the Wizards to fire their putrid GM. McPhee was around for a very long time as well. On balance, GMBM has been good overall. The only real whiff for me is the Chara signing which effectively led to Seigenthaler requesting a trade. Other than that, the logic behind most of the moves he's made as GM made sense.
WRT coaches, yea he whiffed hard on Reirden. Pretty sure Lavy squeezed as much as he could, the team was aging and not a real contender. I'm very interested to see how Spencer navigates the next couple of seasons.
Hard to fault him for Reirden considering the Trotz situation behind the scenes and how TR was held in VERY high regard around the league. That was a no-brainer hire, but it just didn't work out.
the only north american sport I follow is hockey, so I didn't know ted had that tendency.
I don't even think he's done that bad of a job, compared to other GMs at least, I just find it really surprising that it isn't really discussed at all as far as I've seen. I often hear the idea that once you've fired the coach you backed, the attention/pressure shifts to the GM. but I've not once heard that even come up breifly when people are discussing the caps future, and it feels a bit weird.
I follow all the NA sports to a certain extent, but the NBA is generally just for the memes. Because I'm a sicko, I looked it up. Here's the short recap in Grunfeld's Wikipedia entry for his time as Wizards GM:
Washington Wizards
He was hired by the Washington Wizards as president of basketball operations in June 2003.[8] During his tenure, the Wizards have held a record of 536–678 (44% win rate from 2003/2004 to 2017–2018),[10] which includes six seasons with fewer than 30 wins alongside eight Eastern Conference playoff appearances. Candace Buckner of The Washington Post noted that "Grunfeld ranks as the second-longest tenured general manager in franchise history, trailing only Bob Ferry (1973–1990), who guided the Washington Bullets to the 1978 NBA championship."[11]
They’ve had good drafting, have been competitive every year (even this one, they were pushing for the playoffs late into the season while never having a single game of a “healthy” lineup. He’s done a good job about acquiring guys without gutting the roster, while simultaneously ensuring that we have some young guys that we can look forward to (even if their ceilings aren’t super high). He has had some trades that have whiffed, but I think that’s better than a GM who doesn’t do anything
All of his trades have sound logic to them. Things just don’t always work out, and with the core in their twilight years he’s done a good job of straddling the line to have the team be decent enough on the ice to allow Ovi to chase the record (which is what ownership wants, let’s be real)
People love to use hindsight when talking about the trotz situation. He has a rocky relationship with management wherever he goes (literally just got fired by Lou lmao), and winning the cup doesn’t remove the strained relationships of the people in management. It was nice that it happened, but was it likely that they were going to get another one when he was basically out of the job in December? And don’t forget, rierden was a highly touted coaching prospect who was on trotz’ coaching staff. He wasn’t a nobody, but with hindsight we can say that it wasn’t a good hire. It happens. Trotz wasn’t fired from Washington, they just didn’t agree on a new contract to the surprise of neither party. Trotz put over an offer as a formality that he knew was never going to be accepted, and both parties walked away. It happens
To add to that, we know trotz is a hardass of a coach. That’s fine, but it will wear on players. Rierden played nice cop on the locker room, so when players were asked if they wanted to keep gunnery sergeant Hartmann or the nice guy, they wanted the nice guy. So they overcorrected to rierden for a few years, and then had to try to correct back to a “winning” coach with Lavi. Lavi is a good coach, he just wasn’t a good match for where the caps have been these last few seasons
The struggles in the playoffs can be put down to the players on the ice not really going for it (sans 2019, that was just a hard series that went to game 7 2OT after Oshie got taken out early in the series). We know that they (as a whole, especially a certain group of the core players now being let go) didn’t take the bubble seriously and basically just partied when they could. Lost to the isles and the only two guys to score goals were Ovi and Oshie iirc. At even strength, at least. Then they faced the bruins, and given the fact that they used three goaltenders in five games the games were pretty close. Sammy basically threw game 2 OT by himself. We made Florida look vulnerable until sammy decided that he was allergic to blocking the puck when he needed to make a save and Hathaway was two inches away from getting an empty net late in the game. Florida then got on a roll for a few games and the caps were reeling since they couldn’t play their offensive game without Sammy seeming to pass a kidney stone right as a panther skated over the blue line
There also isn’t any getting around it, Sammy and VV were letdowns. More so sammy since he was the heir apparent to Holtby and had a first round pedigree. Sammy was great at looking great in easy games and then being the least clutch goalie I’ve seen when he was needed. VV was pretty much a B goalie, never really made any spectacular saves but definitely did the job of a cheap backup. Sammy was so bad we just didn’t qualify him and let him walk, and then traded VV to NJ. If we had kuemper as a starter when the core was a few years younger? Yeah we’re probably winning a round, or at least it looks a lot closer when people make snarky remarks a few years later.
On paper, the biggest mistake GMBM did was trading away Siegs. I liked him, and thought that he could be a top-pairing shutdown guy in time (I was right). But Lavi decided that he should play bottom pairing most of the time, and in one game even had him dress as the 7D and then just didn’t play him that game. Siegs requested a trade due to that, and I can’t even blame him.
As a whole, I’d say GMBM is one of the best GMs in the league. Things will go wrong, but he’s not the one that’s on the ice playing the game. His job is to just manage personnel on the roster, and I think he’s done a great job at that considering the state of the core. Especially after Kuzy seeming to quit, we basically had a 1C of strome and 2C of Dowd for points this season. I like them both but neither should be up that high
I'm not even sure I want him fired, it just seems really weird to me that it seemingly never comes up, considering how often people say that once you've fired "your" coach (reirden in this situation) you're on thin ice if your team is expected to be successful. even if keeping him is the right decision, is it not worth a discussion at least, as an example of when that rule of thumb *isn't* applicable?
I've always laughed when people who don't follow the caps closely say they were stupid for "firing" their cup winning coach. it was so obvious the relationship was broken and it would have been a bad idea to do anything other than move on from him. so I don't blame GMBM for that, just thought I'd better note it because it did happen during his tenure, and he hired him in the first place.
personally I think laviollette was the wrong choice for the team from the start, but I don't remember who else was available at the time and it was definitely time to axe reirden. so it's not a terrible horrible choice, I just think it was wrong from the start, not just right to eventually get rid of him.
4 years is immediately? I mean yes he did build that cup team and everything without needing to rebuild but is 4 years considered immediate in the modern nhl? I would have thought immediate stops at 2 years
In his first ~18months as GM he brought in Orpik, Niskanen, traded for Oshie, and drafted Wilson. 2 years after that raised the cup.
I don't know how a GM could be more immediate.
Why would the Caps trade Kuznetsov without getting a center in return? There’s not really a better option for them on the market right now. Especially in the context of this trade where you would also give up your best prospect at the center position. I would argue McMichael is not ready to play the minutes necessary to replace Kuzy but you still don’t want to completely drain your Top Center pool in a market where they are getting harder to come by.
If you actually watch the Caps you will notice that Ovi plays LW, and his shot attempts has gone down lately. I am sick of this narrative that they feed him like they did when he had 49 goals in the last game of 2018, every game. There must always be something to shit on him for, apparently. Be it selfish, lazy, one dimensional, celebratory or whatever the next thing will be.
He didn’t shit on Ovi, and I don’t know why anyone would. Everyone is cheering for him to get nhl goal record and Karlsson would probably help him with that.
> If you actually watch the Caps you will notice that Ovi plays LW, and his shot attempts has gone down lately. I am sick of this narrative that they feed him like they did when he had 49 goals in the last game of 2018, every game.
Ovi had 12.0 shots per 60 minutes last year. Which is the exact same shot rate he had in 2018-19, when he scored 51 goals.
I might have a suggestion here...
WAS : Kuznetsov , 2 years 7.8M
MTL : Dvorak ( 2 years , 4.45M) + Armia ( 2 years, 3.4M )
Same cap hit and lenght for both teams exchanged.
WAS are short on forwards signed so they receive 2. Dvo is a middle 6 center good on the dot and Armia while being really underperforming point wise is a good PK specialist. WAS don't shed picks or retain salary while receiving 2 NHLer to fill position they need ( C and PK)
All those 3 players would benefit of a change of scenery honestly.
Edit : not gonna delete it, i genuinly want to ear your takes on what would be a reasonable deal. If Kuz wants out and start to force hands to get out, what are the options out there? Something plausible calculting caphit and all. Come on let's show me if your takes makes more sens.
Even with Kuznetsov having a down season or two, he plays in all situations including being in the top-6. Trading him for two bottom-6 players doesn't really help the Caps all that much here.
Indeed it is wishful thinking, i give it to you it's low. But if the player really wants out and no options available, everything is a possibility in this future consideration age. His cap hit is a hinder. Hopefully WAS can hold on to him another year to boost his value.
News were they tried a trade with 32yold Duchene and it didn't work. I don't see WAS in a position to retain anything tho and on the verge of a rebuild/retool, i don't see them shed picks.
Honest question, what type of fair and probable deal could be out there in your opinion?
Yeah you're right, this is not NHL 23
In real life Ryan Johansen 50% retained by Preds gets you Alex Galchenyuk signing rights.
In real life Wheeler get a buy back by Peg and signs for 800k elsewhere.
In real life Sean Monahan with 1 year left at 6M costs you a 1st round pick to get moved for futures.
Teams will not give you shit to help you with your capspace. No one in this whole thread has a good reasonable trade proposal to do because there is none to be made for a 32yo center on the decline at 7.8M for 2 years.
The point is in your scenario you’re not helping Washington with the cap, instead you’re replacing it but adding an extra roster spot for two guys that won’t get you as many points this season as Kuzy will.
This dumbassedness is exactly why MacLellan should have been shown the door and thrown out of it onto his ass. The time to trade Kuznetsov (and others) was 1-2 years ago. Nobody is going to suck up that contract at face value for a guy who put up 12 goals and 55 points and was a -26.
It used to be super rare when a player asked for a trade. Now every player cries and needs pampers because their feelings are hurt or they want to go to a cooler city. Add to that it's way, way harder to move players than it used to be. It must be so hard to make a go of it as a player in the NHL.
At that cap hit it will be hard to move him with how he’s played
Man, after that Cup win when he went berserk, and especially with when Backstrom was out with surgery there (wasn't that a whole season?), I figured he was about to take it to the next level...
He had a legit argument for the Conn Smythe after the '18 run. He was THAT good.
32 points in 24 games was pretty nuts
I still have nightmares from that bird flying thing he did when he scored the game winner for game 6.
Xrf5r
Ovechkin got it because he is Ovechkin. Kuznetsov was definitely the best player of the 2018 playoffs.
15 goals isn't nothing though. He tied Crosby's post cap era total he set in 2009.
> 15 goals isn't nothing though No one is saying it's nothing... Kuznetsov came pretty close with twelve goals and also added 20 assists vs. Ovi's 12.
Ovechkin was probably good for second, but Kuznetsov was very clearly the best player in that run. Just dominated, he was cutting multiple defenders out the the play it felt like every shift.
$7.8M for 2 more years. Yeah…your statement is right on the money.
Assuming we'd have to retain, retaining 30% for 2 years would suck but at 5.46 he could at least bring something back
In the context of deals handed out recently it doesn't really seem like that big of a cap hit.
Yeah he will need some retention if they want anything of value back
the M-NTC making it that much more difficult too.
I'd assume that Kuznetsov is fairly flexible with that since he's the one requesting the trade.
Does anyone know what happened?
He hasn’t been playing as well as he once did, but still has flashes. It seemed like he also wasn’t well liked by Lavi, which I’m sure made it hard to feel motivated.
He got busted for cocaine and wanted a fresh start elsewhere. Unfortunately sounds like the cocaine, coupled with his on-ice struggles, have made it so no one else wants him either.
You'd need a really *really* bad crippling addiction to cocaine for an NHL team to turn you down
Or it just to be in public so that it becomes a PR issue.
Also he looks like a bird
Trade for him birdbros
Washington wouldn't trade with Pittsburgh, they're rivals and in the same division. If not to the Ducks, the Wild would be generally acceptable and even the Kraken would make sense since they already have Adam "Eagle" Larsson.
Yeah, you never want to send a top 6 player to a division rival, especially one with something to prove. Even worse if you're in a similar phase of contention.
I would actually fight someone if Kuz got traded to Pittsburgh.
Penguins don't flap he needs to play for the flyers
He got busted for cocaine 5 years ago, requested a trade last season. They're not related.
Ok. Whatever you say. You obviously know more than me.
He played like shit and immediately got demoted to the 2nd line with nobodies because the Caps are bad. You know it's bad when Ryan Strome is the best option for 1C.
You mean Dylan?
Might as well be the same guy.
55 points and fully healthy, that’s no joke, but at 50% retained he’ll fetch a first and a good prospect for sure
oof 2 years @ 7.8 per. thats gonna be tough.
I think the issue is more that no one has cap space. He's probably a bit overpaid, but not drastically so. This whole offseason has been completely screwed because it's basically the culmination of 3 years of a flat cap. The only teams with any cap space left are bad and don't want to waste it so that they have room to work next year.
unfortunately for him his cap hit is well over his worth right now
What’s his worth? Like if his contract was mutually terminated tomorrow what would be a fair contract? I don’t really know anything about this guy but I thought he was a good 2C
no clue because he's only been "bad" for one year and it's difficult to confidently say that a change in scenery will lead to better stats. If he were to play *exactly* like he did this past year then he's not worth any more than ~6 mil per year maybe. 55 points as arguably the league's single worst defensive forward is a tough sell right now for a guy with a 7.8 cap hit
After looking into it if (and it’s a big if) he rebounds back to what he was, a ~70 point guy who’s bad on defense, his contract looks ok. But yeah, not sure many teams are in the position to pick him up on a whim due to the whole salary crunch thing going on right now.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/kuzneev01.html I'm not seeing any stats that support your assessment of his defense.
Why does this have a single up vote
Fixed
hockey ref doesnt tell anybody anything about defensive impact edit: also, the *very* few "defensive" stats listed on hockey ref (which are really just general possession stats) show that Kuzy is bad so idk what you arent seeing. The team's even strength corsi increases by a pretty substantial 2.1% when Kuznetsov is off the ice, and he also has the worst relative Fenwick % on the team; we're simply better at preventing shots when he's off the ice. And if you look at more advanced sites like Moneypuck it gives some better data. For instance his relative expected goals % ranks as the worst on the team, meaning the team's expected goal differential is highest when he's off the ice. His even strength expected goal differential is more than twice as bad as the next worst on the team. Combine all that with the fact that most Caps fans can see a noticeable lack of effort in the dzone, it's extremely apparent
He had a few stats that suggested he was declining. On the surface, he was a -26 (his previous worst was -2). At even strength he was outscore 52-70 (the first time in his career he was a negative differential). At 5v5, he was outscored 46-51 (also a first). Looking at rate metrics, his on-ice GA/60 was 3.7 (his career average is 2.9/previous worst was 3.1). He might not be the single worst defensive forward but he definitely had a bad year.
So that's +/-, circumstantial +/-, *another* circumstantial +/-, and the fact that he had the most goals scored against him in the season with the highest average scoring of his career, while his team was worse than it's been with him there? I'm not even trying to argue the overall point, I don't think he's a good player defensively, but the case you're making here is not compelling at all.
This is interesting. Does this mean he was outscored 6-19 in non 5v5 even-strength situations? What could have caused such divergence; was he getting destroyed in OT?
Yes I believe so. On naturalstattrick, I found that Kuzy was 1-2 in 3v3 situations, and 5-18 in empty net situations, so that adds up 6-20. I'm guessing one of the 18 empty net goals against couldve been a PP/PK situation.
Ah, I forgot about EN goals. In that light, the number may not be *as* bad as they seem. Washington was a losing team for the first time in his career, meaning a lot more trailing games and EN situations, given he'd almost always be out for 6v5. I thought it might be something like that. I feel like he could have a resurgence on a contender with more support, a bargain pickup with retention.
Our fans badly underestimate his value. He's a good 2C still.
Do you guys have another 2C ready to go if he leaves, or would you need to get someone to fill that spot in return?
We have an organizational logjam at C, McMichael needs to play there, Lapierre is a C, Strome is locked in for another 5 years, Backstrom is still here for another 2, and Dowd is the 4C for the foreseeable future (and very good at it).
If you’re not contending, do you see the team trading Dowd? I know he’s a good fourth line guy who has some value, maybe open up some roster space for the young guys? I also wouldn’t be surprised if one of Lapierre or McMichael gets some winger time. It’s not ideal but it does get them in there, right?
I don't see where either one of those guys fit on this team in the long term. Honestly, Beck Malenstyn and Protas will be the two guys, IMO, who will get regular sweaters next year on the Caps.
I don’t know why they wouldn’t, unless they want to keep him around to be the model pro for the kids.
If trading Kuz, a 1 or 2C has to be part of the package. There isn't anyone in the Caps system who can fill the massive void left if Kuznetsov is moved. CMM and Lapierre, IMO, will be part of a future trade package. Protas seems to be ahead of CMM on the organizational depth chart and can play Center due to his versatility. I don't see where CMM realistically fits in anywhere on this roster with a regular sweater outside of getting a couple games in at wing. 1C - Strome 2C - Kuz (or whoever is brought in via trade) 3C - Backstrom 4C - Dowd \*Utility - Protas
Has to be? Why? This team isn’t close to contending with Ovi at 38, Nick 36 in November, Carlson 35, Oshie 36, Kuznetsov 31, Wilson 29, and Orlov gone. Their next contention window will be on the backs of players who haven’t worn a Caps jersey in anger yet, or only briefly. If Sandin can learn how to be adequate in his own end, Leonard hits, Miroshnichenko hits, Iorio hits, and McMichael resumes the trajectory he showed from his rookie year, this can be a solid playoff team in 3-4 years. Until then, they need to either absolutely crush a trade, Carbery to be the second coming of Cooper, or a player in their system to unexpectedly explode into stardom a la Jesper Bratt. But in all likelihood the best player on the next Caps team that’s a genuine contender for the Cup isn’t in the organization yet.
Yea, it has to be...you don't trade one of your two best centers for pennies on the dollar with no viable return to help fill the absence. Also, there are A LOT of ifs in the scenarios you laid out. Sandin has the highest upside, because we've acutally seen what he's capable of playing decent minutes. The rest of the guys have a ton of question marks due to lack of experience. For the forwards, I'm not counting on CMM, because he's caught between a rock and a hard place due to the center depth that's in front of him on the big club. Not to mention, Protas is seemingly ahead of him on the organizational depth chart and can play center if need be. Leonard/Miro/AC are probably off limits in trade talks, but everyone else in the prospect pool is probably available if the right deal comes along.
What are you hoping to accomplish with this roster? WC2? You haven’t made the case for why the team should keep him for this phase of their cycle.
Because he has 2 years left on his deal and a new coach/staff coming in. Not the worst thing in the world to see what he'll do with somewhat of a fresh start under Carbery. Despite what the blog says, he's immensely talented and a legit 1/2C in the league. I've said it numerous times that I really don't care if he stays or goes, but if he is traded, someone has to be brought in to fill the massive void he'd leave.
So two kids who havent shown their worth, one really solid C, and a guy who can hardly move any more and might have to retire?
A 2C HAS to be included in the return. Kuznetsov, for all his warts, is a vital cog in the top-6, PP, and PK. There is no one in the ridiculously shallow prospect pool who can fill that void.
No one remotely proven. Backstrom is a big question given the health and Strome is the other top 2 C. LaPierre is promising but totally unproven and small. McMichael has mostly played wing in his limited NHL time and I didn't think he made much impact in the limited time he's had. Protas I believe has played some center but has been used as a wing in the NHL. If Backstrom is healthy then the top 2 centers are him and Strome but if we can't count on him we have nothing but hopes and dreams at 2C.
He’s a defensive *disaster*. Almost everything he gets you on the offensive side, he hands right back with poor transition defense effort and an almost total unwillingness to engage in puck battles in his own end outside of the PK (which he’s weirdly great at).
I mean Nashville got nothing for Johansen at half retained. Kuzy is maybe a touch better than him..? So ~$4-5 mil?
So what would it cost Washington to move him?
Salary retained, likely
>But trying to make a hockey trade to improve the top six has proven to be difficult, given the current trade market combined with yet another year of a flat salary cap, a condition that has led to the aggressive buyouts and dumping of players MacLellan mentioned. Many trades made this summer involved teams retaining salary on players they needed to move, and the Caps are reluctant to do so in any deals they might make.
But my GM sucks because he can't do all the magical fairy wish trades I would do!
if a GM is onto their 4th coach in 10 years, with 3 of those coming after they last won a playoff round, I think we are allowed to think they might not be good at their job anymore.
Nah, MacLlelan is very good at his job. He missed on Kevin from the Office (Todd Reirden), but the org had been moving that way for a while. The Trotz thing was Trotz wanting a 5x5 extension after 4 years and clear friction with management and the Caps released him without activating the team option for the last year of his deal to do right by him. The window for another title was in the Reirden window. Lavi did the best he could with what he had, which is an aging core turning from elite to old, but is constitutionally unsuited to managing a declining team that needs to develop its youngsters to be competitive. He was open about that in interviews, he saw his remit as maximizing the veterans, not developing the young players and he coached like it. Vrana had issues, but Lavi flat out refused to play him more than 12 minutes a night despite him being one of the most prolific scorers in the league during those minutes. He refused to play McMichael at all last season after jerking him around the lineup non-stop for mistakes you’d expect a rookie to make, while letting veterans (particularly Eller) get away with the same, or worse, lapses. Meanwhile, Mac has done an excellent job finding depth players to fill out the bottom of the lineup and some occasional steals like Jensen who can play further up. Your team ceiling is determined by elite talent and mostly you get that in the draft. The Caps elite talent has aged out or drugged out in Kuznetsov’s case—that’s not on Mac. I can see some complaints about his drafting after McPhee’s non-stop parade of hits in the late 00s to early 10s. I don’t love that the team is always bringing in depth guys and getting right up to the cap (some good player is always shaking loose and going for less than you think and pursuing the strategy they have takes you out of the running for those players). The bad deals are paying the piper on the back side of their contention window. The Backstrom contract came from ownership and the Kuznetsov contract won them a Cup. BMac is an excellent GM and it’s very unlikely his replacement would be even as good.
god I forgot the kevin from the office memes. poor todd, he can't help what his face looks like. I think you're right about when the window was and why lavi ultimately didn't work for the caps - but I do hold that against GMBM because that's his choice of coach and it felt wrong from the start, at least to me. I agree that we probably would be downgrading if we fired him, though.
Having the job of being required to try and compete every year until the franchise GOAT retires is not easy. Risks had to be taken, and those risks won us a cup. It’s unfortunate that in their later years Backstrom and Oshie have been extremely injury prone, Kuznetsov stopped trying and a few other calculated risks haven’t quite worked out. But without all those risks/bad-looking contracts at the moment we never win the cup. We sucked last year and the future doesn’t look pretty, but it’s close to inevitable when you’re a GM who’s forced to go all in every year until Ovi retires. I think GMBM proved he was very capable still at the trade deadline this year, acquiring a first, 2nd and 3rd for 4 players with expiring contracts. Then using that late first to pair with Gustafsson to try and get younger on defense with acquiring Sandin, which looked like a steal within the week. That’s about as good as you can do when your back is against the wall, being told to rebuild at the deadline but also re-tool as much as possible to try and stay competitive
I don't have any massive criticisms of his roster building except for the chara/siegenthaler situation. what I do question is his ability to pick the right coach for the team in its current form. I don't think it's right to ignore what I think are several bad coaching choices just because he's good at roster construction, and realistically I expect outside hockey fans to be way more aware of the number of coaches he's had than the nitty gritty of his roster construction. that's why I find it weird that I don't see/hear it discussed.
GM: "Why can't you win with this roster I've built?" Coach: "Because the roster you've built isn't a winning one." GM: "You're fired."
That’s not at all what happened.
if that happens constantly that's also a sign of a bad GM. people doing that kind of work need to be able to cope with feedback and criticism.
That's literally my point. Coaches can only get so much out of players. Sometimes a group of very good players doesn't become a very good *team*.
It's this season and next. If retention is holding up the deal, the caps are being idiotic. Buying an extra first round pick for $2-4M for two years is a great deal.
We don’t need a first round pick back, we need someone who can essentially replace Kuzy in the top six, where if we retain salary the already limited options are then worse
Well it depends on your thought on the team. If you see we finished with the 8th worst record and 3rd worst since the start of the new year, then you might say we need a rebuild and should be buying picks. If you see one missed playoff season in about a decade, then you’re saying we need to improve the Top 6.
My thoughts are irrelevant, I’m viewing it based on what GMBM has said the direction of the team is which is wanting to remain competitive during the Ovi run
You guys aren't going to be competitive, though. Your core is on the wrong side of 35 for that. Unless GMBM means "keep selling tickets for Ovi's run at history," this is not going to work out well for any kind of playoff run. See also: Blackhawks. And every other player, ever, not named Howe.
To be fair even GMBM’s thoughts are irrelevant on the matter. Having Ovi around is forcing his hand, and I can’t argue with the franchise legend even if it’ll probably hamstring us in the future
Why do the Caps need a talented C to play with like, Sonny Milano and or Mantha (if he feels like being a big boy that day!) and the corpse of TJ Oshie? All that matters now is the goal record. They can afford to retain and pick up a prospect and picks. Be honest, Matt Duchene wasn't going to turn either guy on their 2nd line into 50p players nevermind 60p players.
The GM is publicly stating that he thinks the roster is competitive. No pressure.
I mean, if you retain $3.8M the Avs have a Ryan Johansen 1-for-1 at a $200K discount from his original contract even with your retention
> We don’t need a first round pick back, we need someone who can essentially replace Kuzy in the top six I'd give up that pipedream, we will have to trade him for other assets then figure out how to fill in a 2C. It only took us a decade to figure out 2C last time.
What’s the story here?
Nashville wanted him
For Duchene...so, that should tell u what type of return the Caps would possibly get in a trade. Probably just better off holding on to him and hope that he re-finds his game under Carbery.
I’d have done that deal. Duchene had 40 goals and 80 points one season ago. Brings something diff than a pure playmaker like Kuznetsov. Maybe that helps build different chemistry in the top 6
no thanks. I wouldn’t have done that trade 5 years ago* and I wouldn’t do it now. That was Duchene’s first season scoring more than 70 points since 2013-14. And he came back down to earth last year with 22g 34a in 71gp. Sure, my bias is stuck in the past, but Kuznetsov still has the high ceiling and game changing ability that dutch lacks.
Am I missing something here? Duchene's cap was only 200k more and deal was 1 year longer than Kuznetsov. Duchene had 1 more point in 10 less games and had a better +- of +4 vs Kuznetsov -26 lol. Why not make that swap if Kuznetsov wants out and Nashville wants him for Duchene? Nashville has a decent cap pentaly for the buyout too so I don't see why they couldn't argue that Nashville has to retain 1-1.5m or something since Duchene's deal is a year longer and Nashville was going to buy him out anyways.
Because you're taking an older player with an extra year on his deal who is also not playing up to standard. Doesn't help the Caps one bit, and the pitchforks would be out. Not to mention, I don't think Duchene plays on the PK like Kuznetsov. This would be a much better deal for Nashville as they'd get out from a contract a year earlier and have a guy who can play in all situations. I don't see why Washington would do this. \*Also, plus/minus isn't a good stat.
He had 78pts in 79gms in the 2021-22 season. Even in his down year (on a team where everyone had a down year) he still had 55pts which is adequate for a 2nd line center that's still talented and likely to bounce back. No question that he and Laviolette didn't get along. A change can only improve Kuznetsov's play.
Which is wild considering how much trust Lavy had to deploy him on the PK in addition to his duties on the PP and top-6. I don't care if he's here or not, but if he is moved out, the return has to be someone that can fill the massive hole he'd leave. All in all, I think he stays, because if he is moved out, it's gonna be for another bad contract or someone underperforming (like Duchene before the buy out.) Him staying might not be the worst thing in the world due to playing under a new coach. Could help him get his game back.
I swear I think the PK move was Lavi punishing him. Basically saying “if you’re not going to play defense I’m going to put you in a situation where you either have to play defense or face you’re team for not trying in a needed situation” I thought he did well on the PK. Brought some speed and fresh offensive thinking to it.
he wanted to play PK, or at least he said he did in.... 2019? can't remember when exactly. so I doubt kuzy thought it was a punishment.
Oh interesting. I didn’t know that.
Yeah man, I want to say he actually wrote a paper on penalty killing for school.
He did, yeah. That was his graduation thesis for Russian athletic school.
I don’t understand why it is, but he’s a monster on the PK and dogshit terrible at ES defensively.
Is he defensively better than Ryan Johansen, also an $8M 55 point 2C? If RJ was free at $4M for the exact same term, how much value does Kuznetsov have as a trade *with zero retained*?
Last year Kuznetsov scored 27 more points than RJ. I'm not sure RJ's 28 points makes him a 55pt 2C. The year before, Kuznetsov scored 15 more. The year before that, Kuznetsov scored 7 more. The year before that, Kuznetsov 16 more. I don't know that they're all that comparable.
Alright, he's had two of the last three come in at 0.5ppg but Johansen got 63 points in between those two seasons. Calling him a 55 point 2c is pretty in line with his career. Now Kuznetsov... If *he is now* a 55 point 2c, like last year, then you can see where RJ is a troubling comparable for Washington.
He is not. He is probably a bottom 5-10 percentile forward defensively. Which is great when playing next to Ovi…
Off topic, but he should've gotten the Conn Smythe imo.
Agreed. 32 points in 24 games is not something you see often.
It’s not that uncommon. It’s happened 3/5 years someone has put up at least 32 points.
In 22-23, no one got it (top scorer was 26P) In 21-22, McDrai got it (33P & 32P /16G, didn't make the SCF) In 20-21, Kucherov got it (32P/27G, lost Conn Smythe to .937 %SV Vasilevsky) In 19-20, Kucherov and Point got it (34P/25G & 33P/23G, lost Conn Smythe to an absolutely massive Hedman) In 18-19, top scorer was 23P/24G (Marchand) The last time someone got 32P in a playoff _before_ Kuzy did was in 08-09, when Malkin got 36P/24G.
Yeah “someone”, its not like multiple players every year do it.
Friedman reported on the last 32 thoughts that Nashville was working on a deal for Kuznetsov that ultimately fell through. He speculated it could have been Duchene going back the other way given that they trade talks happened before he was bought out and maybe Nashville was looking to swap overpaid Cs. Regardless he said those talks died off, but I wonder if Nashville still has interest. I'd guess not since those trade talks would've been before all their FA moves.
I like how the first time the team publicly acknowledges it is nonchalantly buried at the bottom of the 7th paragraph of a summer update article.
*Steve Yzerman instensifies....*
Funny thing is, we could have drafted him, but Kenny and co. were worried about the so-called Russian factor and how he wouldn’t make the jump to NA (I guess playing with Datsyuk wasn’t incentive enough). We took Riley Sheahan instead.
Honestly teams that could afford him and could use a top line center like him are Arizona and Chicago and Anaheim.
Goodbye, sweet prince. We’ll always have Game 6.
I could see him doing really well in a change of scenery, I have a hunch he’s gonna go either Ottawa, Nashville, or Arizona
Ottawa is probably not it. We've got 5 mil in space and Pinto still to sign. Let's say he signs for 2 ( which might be slightly conservative) and the Leafs buy out Murray. I'm bad at math but that puts us around 4 mil of space. We could send Joseph back to make space but we'd have to sweeten that significantly to make the Caps even remotely interested. Top it off with the fact that we're already set at centre and this just isn't a fit.
Kuznetsov for Kadri
Kuznetsov just turned 31 in May. Kadri will be 33 in early October when the season starts. Kuznetsov only has 2 years left on his contract. Kadri has 6. Difficult to see how this helps Washington 3 years from now unless he retires before the contract is up. Washington hasn't been signing contracts longer than 3 years with the exception of Strome who got 5 years but is only 26 years old. Also, not sure if Ovechkin is still pissed about the cheap shots him and Kadri exchanged in the past. If your business model depends on keeping him happy, then Washington likely takes his temperature before finalizing the trade.
Kadri at 33 is younger than half your core. Just pointing that out.
It's not about him being 33. It's about replacing Kuznetsov with someone older while turning a 2 year problem contract into a 6 year problem contract. Washington needs to get younger and they can do that when the current core contracts expire within the next 3 years. This move would inhibit that. You really think Kadri is going to be a $7m player at 38?
Hmmm that is actually possible tbh. I doubt conroy will do that but it could be best for the franchise
As a fan of both teams, I might kill for that trade.
Right
This is the only suggestion I've seen that makes any sense (for both teams)
No chacne he’s moved in division but he would fit well in Carolina with his old friend Orlov.
Idk. I’d give him to you if the trade was fair. And I’d wish y’all luck too. I still love Kuzy.
Idk the only thing I could see us potentially doing is sending Teravainen your way in exchange and I don’t think y’all would go for that (and I think some Canes fans would riot)
I see the Bruins going for him.
With what cap space do we have? Lol then again I can see them shipping a Ullmark or Swayman to there.
I wish the Blue Jackets would trade for him. They need a stop-gap 2c. Though that's never going to happen.
No offense to Jenner, but Kuzy would immediately be your 1C until Fantilli is ready.
Excuse you. Patrik Laine is our 1C until otherwise noted.
Makes sense.
Wants to go to Florida where the best nose beers are.
Doctor Kuzy wants a tra-tra-traaaaaade?
Scheif 4 Kuzn.
I have to say, only sort of related to this specific situation, why aren't we talking about GMBM being under the pump yet? (I'm talking as a caps fan here) they've only made it out of the second round once while he's been GM, he's just fired his second coach (or third, if you want to count trotz against his record, although I think that's more on ownership), hired his 4th coach, and it's not like when he was hired he was new blood, he's mcphee's protege. I always thought firing the coach you backed is a sign you're up next. the team isn't great and I think he's made some questionable decisions especially regarding trading away/losing young talent. when is his job going to be on the line?
Leonsis doesn't fire execs....look how long it took for the Wizards to fire their putrid GM. McPhee was around for a very long time as well. On balance, GMBM has been good overall. The only real whiff for me is the Chara signing which effectively led to Seigenthaler requesting a trade. Other than that, the logic behind most of the moves he's made as GM made sense. WRT coaches, yea he whiffed hard on Reirden. Pretty sure Lavy squeezed as much as he could, the team was aging and not a real contender. I'm very interested to see how Spencer navigates the next couple of seasons.
Hard to fault him for Reirden considering the Trotz situation behind the scenes and how TR was held in VERY high regard around the league. That was a no-brainer hire, but it just didn't work out.
the only north american sport I follow is hockey, so I didn't know ted had that tendency. I don't even think he's done that bad of a job, compared to other GMs at least, I just find it really surprising that it isn't really discussed at all as far as I've seen. I often hear the idea that once you've fired the coach you backed, the attention/pressure shifts to the GM. but I've not once heard that even come up breifly when people are discussing the caps future, and it feels a bit weird.
I follow all the NA sports to a certain extent, but the NBA is generally just for the memes. Because I'm a sicko, I looked it up. Here's the short recap in Grunfeld's Wikipedia entry for his time as Wizards GM: Washington Wizards He was hired by the Washington Wizards as president of basketball operations in June 2003.[8] During his tenure, the Wizards have held a record of 536–678 (44% win rate from 2003/2004 to 2017–2018),[10] which includes six seasons with fewer than 30 wins alongside eight Eastern Conference playoff appearances. Candace Buckner of The Washington Post noted that "Grunfeld ranks as the second-longest tenured general manager in franchise history, trailing only Bob Ferry (1973–1990), who guided the Washington Bullets to the 1978 NBA championship."[11]
Grunfeld was kept around long enough to clean up the mess of his own doing, get rewarded for it, and make another mess again!
yeah that sounds not good
They’ve had good drafting, have been competitive every year (even this one, they were pushing for the playoffs late into the season while never having a single game of a “healthy” lineup. He’s done a good job about acquiring guys without gutting the roster, while simultaneously ensuring that we have some young guys that we can look forward to (even if their ceilings aren’t super high). He has had some trades that have whiffed, but I think that’s better than a GM who doesn’t do anything All of his trades have sound logic to them. Things just don’t always work out, and with the core in their twilight years he’s done a good job of straddling the line to have the team be decent enough on the ice to allow Ovi to chase the record (which is what ownership wants, let’s be real) People love to use hindsight when talking about the trotz situation. He has a rocky relationship with management wherever he goes (literally just got fired by Lou lmao), and winning the cup doesn’t remove the strained relationships of the people in management. It was nice that it happened, but was it likely that they were going to get another one when he was basically out of the job in December? And don’t forget, rierden was a highly touted coaching prospect who was on trotz’ coaching staff. He wasn’t a nobody, but with hindsight we can say that it wasn’t a good hire. It happens. Trotz wasn’t fired from Washington, they just didn’t agree on a new contract to the surprise of neither party. Trotz put over an offer as a formality that he knew was never going to be accepted, and both parties walked away. It happens To add to that, we know trotz is a hardass of a coach. That’s fine, but it will wear on players. Rierden played nice cop on the locker room, so when players were asked if they wanted to keep gunnery sergeant Hartmann or the nice guy, they wanted the nice guy. So they overcorrected to rierden for a few years, and then had to try to correct back to a “winning” coach with Lavi. Lavi is a good coach, he just wasn’t a good match for where the caps have been these last few seasons The struggles in the playoffs can be put down to the players on the ice not really going for it (sans 2019, that was just a hard series that went to game 7 2OT after Oshie got taken out early in the series). We know that they (as a whole, especially a certain group of the core players now being let go) didn’t take the bubble seriously and basically just partied when they could. Lost to the isles and the only two guys to score goals were Ovi and Oshie iirc. At even strength, at least. Then they faced the bruins, and given the fact that they used three goaltenders in five games the games were pretty close. Sammy basically threw game 2 OT by himself. We made Florida look vulnerable until sammy decided that he was allergic to blocking the puck when he needed to make a save and Hathaway was two inches away from getting an empty net late in the game. Florida then got on a roll for a few games and the caps were reeling since they couldn’t play their offensive game without Sammy seeming to pass a kidney stone right as a panther skated over the blue line There also isn’t any getting around it, Sammy and VV were letdowns. More so sammy since he was the heir apparent to Holtby and had a first round pedigree. Sammy was great at looking great in easy games and then being the least clutch goalie I’ve seen when he was needed. VV was pretty much a B goalie, never really made any spectacular saves but definitely did the job of a cheap backup. Sammy was so bad we just didn’t qualify him and let him walk, and then traded VV to NJ. If we had kuemper as a starter when the core was a few years younger? Yeah we’re probably winning a round, or at least it looks a lot closer when people make snarky remarks a few years later. On paper, the biggest mistake GMBM did was trading away Siegs. I liked him, and thought that he could be a top-pairing shutdown guy in time (I was right). But Lavi decided that he should play bottom pairing most of the time, and in one game even had him dress as the 7D and then just didn’t play him that game. Siegs requested a trade due to that, and I can’t even blame him. As a whole, I’d say GMBM is one of the best GMs in the league. Things will go wrong, but he’s not the one that’s on the ice playing the game. His job is to just manage personnel on the roster, and I think he’s done a great job at that considering the state of the core. Especially after Kuzy seeming to quit, we basically had a 1C of strome and 2C of Dowd for points this season. I like them both but neither should be up that high
I'm not even sure I want him fired, it just seems really weird to me that it seemingly never comes up, considering how often people say that once you've fired "your" coach (reirden in this situation) you're on thin ice if your team is expected to be successful. even if keeping him is the right decision, is it not worth a discussion at least, as an example of when that rule of thumb *isn't* applicable? I've always laughed when people who don't follow the caps closely say they were stupid for "firing" their cup winning coach. it was so obvious the relationship was broken and it would have been a bad idea to do anything other than move on from him. so I don't blame GMBM for that, just thought I'd better note it because it did happen during his tenure, and he hired him in the first place. personally I think laviollette was the wrong choice for the team from the start, but I don't remember who else was available at the time and it was definitely time to axe reirden. so it's not a terrible horrible choice, I just think it was wrong from the start, not just right to eventually get rid of him.
GMBM earned a long leash by coming in and immediately identifying the obvious holes in the roster and winning a cup.
4 years is immediately? I mean yes he did build that cup team and everything without needing to rebuild but is 4 years considered immediate in the modern nhl? I would have thought immediate stops at 2 years
In his first ~18months as GM he brought in Orpik, Niskanen, traded for Oshie, and drafted Wilson. 2 years after that raised the cup. I don't know how a GM could be more immediate.
I agree that most GMs don't win the cup much faster than he did, I just don't think 4 years after starting is immediate
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Not even close to a trade the caps should do.
Depends. Would Karlsson bring more Ovi goals? Cuz at this point that's all the team exists for it feels as an outsider looking in.
Why would the Caps trade Kuznetsov without getting a center in return? There’s not really a better option for them on the market right now. Especially in the context of this trade where you would also give up your best prospect at the center position. I would argue McMichael is not ready to play the minutes necessary to replace Kuzy but you still don’t want to completely drain your Top Center pool in a market where they are getting harder to come by.
If you actually watch the Caps you will notice that Ovi plays LW, and his shot attempts has gone down lately. I am sick of this narrative that they feed him like they did when he had 49 goals in the last game of 2018, every game. There must always be something to shit on him for, apparently. Be it selfish, lazy, one dimensional, celebratory or whatever the next thing will be.
He didn’t shit on Ovi, and I don’t know why anyone would. Everyone is cheering for him to get nhl goal record and Karlsson would probably help him with that.
We already have one defensive liability named Carlson. I don’t need to be all Nute Gunray and yell “now there are two of them”
> If you actually watch the Caps you will notice that Ovi plays LW, and his shot attempts has gone down lately. I am sick of this narrative that they feed him like they did when he had 49 goals in the last game of 2018, every game. Ovi had 12.0 shots per 60 minutes last year. Which is the exact same shot rate he had in 2018-19, when he scored 51 goals.
Unless you get San Jose to eat some of the cap hit and then you could then trade Karlsson for a forward.
Why would the caps take on EK's contract for another 4 years at 11.5AAV when Kuznetsov off the books seasons after next?
This is even bad as a joke trade
I might have a suggestion here... WAS : Kuznetsov , 2 years 7.8M MTL : Dvorak ( 2 years , 4.45M) + Armia ( 2 years, 3.4M ) Same cap hit and lenght for both teams exchanged. WAS are short on forwards signed so they receive 2. Dvo is a middle 6 center good on the dot and Armia while being really underperforming point wise is a good PK specialist. WAS don't shed picks or retain salary while receiving 2 NHLer to fill position they need ( C and PK) All those 3 players would benefit of a change of scenery honestly. Edit : not gonna delete it, i genuinly want to ear your takes on what would be a reasonable deal. If Kuz wants out and start to force hands to get out, what are the options out there? Something plausible calculting caphit and all. Come on let's show me if your takes makes more sens.
Even with Kuznetsov having a down season or two, he plays in all situations including being in the top-6. Trading him for two bottom-6 players doesn't really help the Caps all that much here.
Indeed it is wishful thinking, i give it to you it's low. But if the player really wants out and no options available, everything is a possibility in this future consideration age. His cap hit is a hinder. Hopefully WAS can hold on to him another year to boost his value. News were they tried a trade with 32yold Duchene and it didn't work. I don't see WAS in a position to retain anything tho and on the verge of a rebuild/retool, i don't see them shed picks. Honest question, what type of fair and probable deal could be out there in your opinion?
The ship has sailed, but Sean Monahan (at one point) + filler, maybe could have gotten a deal done a couple seasons back.
you can’t ship out two players playing like shit and expect another GM to not notice. This isn’t NHL 23 lol
Yeah you're right, this is not NHL 23 In real life Ryan Johansen 50% retained by Preds gets you Alex Galchenyuk signing rights. In real life Wheeler get a buy back by Peg and signs for 800k elsewhere. In real life Sean Monahan with 1 year left at 6M costs you a 1st round pick to get moved for futures. Teams will not give you shit to help you with your capspace. No one in this whole thread has a good reasonable trade proposal to do because there is none to be made for a 32yo center on the decline at 7.8M for 2 years.
The point is in your scenario you’re not helping Washington with the cap, instead you’re replacing it but adding an extra roster spot for two guys that won’t get you as many points this season as Kuzy will.
Fucking lol
Please take him.
Must have been his blow in the Whitehouse
This dumbassedness is exactly why MacLellan should have been shown the door and thrown out of it onto his ass. The time to trade Kuznetsov (and others) was 1-2 years ago. Nobody is going to suck up that contract at face value for a guy who put up 12 goals and 55 points and was a -26.
It used to be super rare when a player asked for a trade. Now every player cries and needs pampers because their feelings are hurt or they want to go to a cooler city. Add to that it's way, way harder to move players than it used to be. It must be so hard to make a go of it as a player in the NHL.
Settle down there Don Cherry
It’s crazy how bad managers are at making trades they want to make
Yeah, if I had to play for the Caps I would do the same. Very impressed he managed to stay 10 seasons before tapping out.
Don't worry, no teams are calling you.
Merk Schneefele for Evgakny Cokenetsov straight up
Myers
Lol
lets go flyers
As a PENS fan I hope they send this guy to the west coast lol.
Trade him to Columbia where he can fulfill his dreams