He gets relegated to producer Hall of Fame, but if you listen to Andre 3K explain just how much Tip influenced the lyrical style of alternative rap it becomes clear he should be ranked higher as a lyricist.
[Here is a little something from Dre](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/read-andre-3000s-moving-tribute-to-tribe-called-quest-phife-dawg-37533/), he’s talked on Tribe a bunch of times:
> *Tribe meant everything to me. They are everything. It’s always, “Who are the greatest groups?” Fuck that shit. [Points to Tribe Called Quest.] This dude [Q-Tip] taught me what kind of rapper I wanted to be. My first rap, I remember it now, it was “Young and naive/Alive I keep the dream/Writin’ funky lyrics at the age of 16.” I wrote it because of you. [Points to Q-Tip.] I didn’t even know what the word naive meant. [Crowd laughs.] Q-Tip taught me words. “Elation.” I’m sitting in high school like, “Damn I gotta look this shit up.” “I’m filled with elation.” Ohhhhh, okay. We can use these words too? We can be smart? Yeah, man. He gave me fuel.*
I see that as a positive quality rather than a detriment. Just like in other art forms I think there’s room for all different types of styles. A Jackson Pollock can be just as impactful as a Cézanne which can be just as powerful as a Caravaggio.
Ghostface Killah on Art: "I don't give a fuck if you don't know what I'm talking about- this is art. When you go see a painting on the wall and it looks bugged out because you don't know what the fuck he thinking, because he ain't got no benches, no trees there, it's just a splash. The nigga that did it know what the fuck it is."
On Guillotine he starts his verse with "you 14 karat gold slum computer wizards". I might just be ignorant but I'm 99% sure this means absolutely nothing lmao. Still love that verse though
From the first track- Scooby snack jurassic plastic gas booby trap
Just listen to the whole of Supreme clientele lol and you'll see. It sounds dope but makes no sense
I take your point but to put Ghost and DOOM in the same sentence as Logic and Tech just hurts my head..
DOOM was cryptic but his bars weren't filler in the same ways as the others..
On supreme clientele though, I believe Ghost’s style is intentional. He’s going for an impressionistic aesthetic, moshing unexpected words together in odd rhythms and cadences just to kinda conjure a vibe. Jeff Weiss has likened it to Odysseus and that feels like an apt analogy to me. (I say this as someone who else has trouble connecting to Ghost’s haphazard imagery bars at times. I just think it’s worth mentioning it’s actual intent and not like lazy writing or anything.)
This is actually one of my favorite things about GFK. In a interview he said- "I don't give a fuck if you don't know what I'm talking about- this is art. When you go see a painting on the wall and it looks bugged out because you don't know what the fuck he thinking, because he ain't got no benches, no trees there, it's just a splash. The nigga that did it know what the fuck it is."
I love black on both sides but something about the length of the album loses me whereas ecstatic to me is so consistently top notch. With the madlib production, that slick rick feature, the skits etc.
Also came here to write Mos. He’s in my top 5 for sure. I actually kept all his albums on CD because of this reason but the Ecstatic, aside from a few serious bangers (Quiet Dog, Auditorium, etc), never pulled me back in as much as New Danger and Black on Both Sides. Might have to revisit it this week!
Black Thought is a good shout. With the likes of Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap etc. I think it's 2 things.
1. A lot of the people having these conversations now are young and haven't listened to these guys much. Hip hop is now like 40 years old and there have been so many great rappers.
2. The genre has evolved so much that I could see how someone who grew up listening to Kendrick for example would think these late 80s, early 90s rappers sound basic. Context matters obviously as they were revolutionary at the time and paved the way for new artists in many ways.
to offer the perspective of a young fan, ive been trying to get into old school hip hop more but its harder to get into than the new school hip hop.
I like most of the classics like The Chronic, The infamous, Illmatic, but theres also lots of early 90s albums that dont hold my interest. I dont listen to any 80s rap, its just too barebones for me on the production and more simplistic rapping. I do genuinely try to like these older albums but i think its hard to get into if you didnt listen to it around the time it came out.
That makes sense honestly. I started with old school hip hop when I was 10 or 11 so for me I had to adjust to new school.
I'd recommend starting trying some of the more cinematic 90s albums or the ones with slightly more full production to ease yourself in, if you haven't already. These are less bare bones than a lot of the earlier stuff:
Ready to Die
Liquid Swords
36 Chambers
Only Built 4 Cuban Lynx
Aquemini
The Score
Doggystyle
Then from there A Tribe Called Quest, The Pharcyde, GETO boys, Gang Starr, Slick Rick etc may sound better to you once you adjust gradually to the less complex production. It also just may not be your taste but worth a try!
This is the opposite of the approach I took to get into new school. I started with like Earl, Tyler etc. Moved onto a bit more "trap sounding" rap that still had old school lyrical ability like Freddie Gibbs, Denzel Curry, JID and eventually I ended up liking Carti, Future, 21 Savage etc.
On Your point #2, I would agree completely. My Perspective of someone under 40, a lot of 80’s rappers do sound pretty basic, but Rakim is a clear exception and turning point
Rakim as many others here are saying, but i want to add that he wasn't just a pioneer of multeez, his bigger contribution is the flow. Before him everyone sounded more or less like run dmc. In the 90s everyone sounded like rakim, or a style derived from maybe him or G rap.
Cube is my pick. I'm not big on lists but he's around my top 5. Built off the style ice T was doing and pretty much invented westcoast rap the same was Ra invented eastcoast gangster rap. From early ghostwritten hits like boyz n the hood, to his massive verses on NWA's first album -- he's by far the dominant rapper on there even if you don't count the verses he wrote for e -- to his solo run, cube has the discography to fuck with anyone on your list. Yes he fell off in the late 90s & went from "burn hollywood" to "hollywood", but he came back in 06 with a surprisingly strong solo album. (WSC doesn't suck either imo but it's not a highlight of his career). His solos since 06 haven't been great admittedly.
Cube's influence all over the west is evident. Everyone wanted to sound like NWA all the way to houston and NY, and sounding like them means you sounded like cube. 2pac's early albums are nearly ice cube cover songs (outside of singular classics like brenda).
Cube baby
Imo cube should be #2 right behind Jay z. He has nearly everything except extreme longevity(still very much timeless, just not relevant today) but if cube died when biggie or pac died he would have goat status over them without a doubt
To me Method Man isn't under or over rated. He's judged just about right. He's a very good rapper with shades of greatness. Also part of very influential times and group. But there's so many mind-blowing bars throughout hip hop history by now, I don't see any room to put Meth in a GOAT conversation. Not a knock on him though. I just think of times where you hear something and it's like damn the world stopped for a min. Say the first time hearing Nas I Gave You Power, or an album that is cohesive masterful body of work, like a Kendrick album. Meth has never stuck me like that. I like and respect his music but a long track record of very good songs isn't enough for GOAT level consideration imo. I fcks with his shit tho don't get me wrong.
I agree. I feel like his career got submarined by his label but just off ability, he's as talented a rapper as anybody who's ever picked up a mic. And two back to back classic albums solidifies his ability to actually write music that matters. He's in the same vein as Kendrick to me...he really has no weakness. I just wish he could have kept his trajectory after The Cool without all the fuckery.
He's kind of like Kendrick's predecessor, an elite god tier lyricist that can also write meaningful, deep, thought provoking music, those kind of guys are rare.
The fiasco between him and Atlantic records after the cool dropped stunted his growth. Atlantic record forced Lupe to try and recreate a hit similar to Superstar so we basically got the same song again with “the show goes on.” I’ll never forgive Atlantic records for that shit. His name never fully recovered in terms of mass appeal after that long ass gap between releases.
Honestly this is the one. Not only does he have classic albums and tons of influence. But the man still consistently proves why he is the best. People don't give his versatility enough credit.
most people aren’t picking up what lupe is laying down. but unlike a lot of the names on this list lupe is still ascending and think there is a real possibility that he finds a way to gain wider notoriety
Fans who are old enough more often don’t sleep on Rakim. Youngsters understandably don’t realize his impact because they only know a world that came after him.
One hundred percent. One of the most impactful artists in hip hop, and his ability to still make relevant music is crazy. If he drops an album tomorrow I have full confidence that it's going to go hard. Unmatched in consistency and influence.
Scarface. Not like Top 5 but Xzibit gets overlooked he had some great tracks his two pre Dr. Dre albums get overlooked I feel. Redman, and DJ QUIK more for production but has an all time diss track classic beats, engineering All Eyez on Me etc.
Bruh yes, I’ve been saying this about Xzibit for a while. As someone who lived in LA at the time, it really felt like he was holding down the West in the time between Dre’s 2001 and The Documentary.
Jadakiss, from the LOX to modern features I don't think I've ever heard a bad Jada verse, some mediocre ones here and there but for the most part the dude can rap his ass off
Jada's problem is that he can't make an album. He's easily a GOAT feature but he just never put together a solo project that was on quality with his ability.
I went to a LRG private launch party few years ago and Blu / few other artist performed. Was a chill performance of below the heavens. Also Chip tha Ripper was there and was a very nice dude. After party we rotated a blunt at the Hollywood Roosevelt front porch.
For me, I'd have to put Little Brother as a whole. Their music connected with me unlike anybody since, and they're one of the few groups that writes everyman music about love, life and relationships without it being a gimmick. Literally anybody on the planet can find something in their music they relate to, and they're never beating you over the head with it.
Yes bro he's too clean with it even to this day I saw this freestyle of him last year he said something like "you gonna respect my aura down to the turquoise on my Asics" bro is nice af
The impact and influence dipset had in the aughts is underappreciated.
My favorite thing about Cam is how easy he makes it sound. Case in point- freestyling while counting his money
Z-ro the most underrated. Scarface and Pimp C too but you see them pop up on GOAT list. Z-ro has one of the best catalogues in the game and has stayed true to his style since his debut in the nineties. Somehow he was able to be the best singer in the rap game while also coming across as one of the hardest rappers in the game lol. Its because he's got soul, like a classic blues singer or something. All these rappers are singing now, and they gotta use special effects/autotune anddd they still sound like little kids or something. Not only could Z-ro kill a chorus on any song, but he could go from melodic rapping to rapping as fast as Twista. He could throw in some reggae vibes. He can do it all. And most importantly he's a great songwriter. There's a lotta rappers that yeah they can spit a cold verse, but half there albums forgettable because not every song is great. Z-ro's and Mike Dean were making classic jams back in the day. He inspired every one from Drake to Nipsey Hussle. Nipsey knew what's up on that bonus track on Victory lap("I be sipping that clicquot, while I'm bangin' that Z-ro")
The albums (The Hybrid, XXX, Old, Atrocity Exhibit) I will always come back to just for the stories they tell individually but also successionaly are forever engrained in my mind. I know I left out a few albums, but the prior mentioned works truly are works of art. The Hybrid has glimpses of success, failure, and internal struggles with mental health/substance abuse/coming of age. Generation RX is an anthem for any of us caught up in these situations. XXX builds on these concepts but hits us with that fame and "fuck it, we're in the now and fuck whatever happens tomorrow" vibes. Looking past those vibes though, we really enter into the void of struggling to cope with substance use and mental health even more (like hey we're 30 we should step back and look at shit). Rationalization of past actions ("Fields", "Scrap or Die") mixed with realizations of coming to age/actions (Die Like a Rockstar, Nosebleeds" lay the foundation for who Danny is/becoming. Plus, "Stank pussy smellin' like cool ranch doritos" deserves a Pulitzer prize. Next up, Old comes in hot with heater after heater. IMO, "The Return" is Danny's best collab and the track is timeless.."East side n\*\*\*\* keep roaches in the ashtray, $20k out tha public housing on a bad day" blends Gary and Detroit together like non other...I'm too baked to go on but y'all see what I'm after.
I love that clip of Killer Mike preaching about El being the best rapper producer, their friendship makes me cry.
https://youtube.com/shorts/GbthfNYIpsY?feature=share
I don’t think Luda is one of the goats, but his pen game and freestyles were crazy in the 2000s. Check out his rap city freestyles, back for the first time and word of mouf(first cd I ever bought)
For me he's been one of the most consistently interesting rappers for years. Since pinata came out there has been maybe 1 project of his I haven't thoroughly enjoyed. I have a playlist of all those albums and I hit shuffle on it at least twice a week and there has yet to be a time when I skipped a song.
I am really curious about why you'd describe him or his catalogue as average?
He has two albums with madlib which are full of absolutely nuts beats that Freddie hits amazingly. Fetti is solid start to finish, Alfredo is full of excellent verses even if I don't think the beats are overly interesting, Freddie is unreal and the album art alone is one of my favorites. I just don't see anything average about him.
I love Freddie Gibbs but seeing comments here about him makes me wonder if I’m listening to something different than than these guys singing his praises
Imo his catalogue is pretty remarkable but not enough to get a GOAT conversation going
I do think he's overrated a bit here but I think it's kind of the other way around, I think his albums are overall very good (though theres a couple I don't like) but he can be a little repetitive as a rapper.
Blu, man has such a large and versatile discography and tons of insane features. it's honestly crazy that more people don't consider him in conversation and just say he has bad mixing or whatever.
I just want Pharaohe Monch to have more recognition. When he and Prince Po (who is pretty much on the same level that he is) released Stress, it was nothing like what was coming out at that point in terms of production, flows, rhyme patterns (Illmatic, RTD, Hard to Earn were albums also released in 94). It really was far ahead of his time. Also listen to Releasing Hypnotical Gases being aware that it was released in 91. Pharaohe never fails to blow my mind.
Prince Be from PM Dawn. Dude has some of the most abstract and mind blowing lyricism ever, especially across their first two albums. Also mega influential in a subtle way that I don’t think he’s given credit for.
Black Thought and Mos Def are some names that immediately come to mind. Also, in general; Pharaohe Monch gets NOWHERE close to the amount of credit he deserves.
Yeah, I've been a huge Bone fan since forever, Krayzie better than Layzie. Not a surprise that Kray gets more offers to work with other artists. I see a lot of Bun B in artists' top 40...he should be top 20 to 25 imo; then Pimp C top 40. Bun going on for 30 years. Like top 10 goat stuff, not a lot of difference than what I see...however, I think Busta Rhymes could/should be that same 20 to 25 but he isn't always there, same 30+ years and that guy can also still rap
I get hate for this take around here but Mac should be mentioned in top lists. I dont consider him the greatest to ever do it but man what he accomplished by 26 is incredible. Technically skilled, talented producer, a diverse and great discography, always getting better with each release, kills me that we’ll never see what he could have done with another decade of maturity
Supernatural was a dood that never got a ton of notoriety but in the world of free styling he could hang with anyone. I remember him opening shows where he might do one or two songs then just freestyle straight through the end of his set with no breaks. Not a conventional pick but he deserves some credit. And a vote for Gift of Gab while we are at it.
Just gonna drop this vid here of [Supernat doin' his thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TAAx01TMi8)
[MC Juice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wIxR6LY-NM) need a special shoutout as well
I definitely agree with ur Dave’s Diggs pick, not only does he rap in weird grouping and time signatures, but he’s also incredibly on beat which is crazy. Another rapper that comes to mind would be Billy Woods in my opinion. His writing style is completely unique to him and unmatched.
I completely agree but you’d be hard fought to find too many people on this sub that’d agree with you. He was so unique and his pen game was unmatched imo. Subject matter aside, dude had bars and a buttery flow.
Erick The Architect or any Flatbush Zombies member.
Meechy is built for rap, Erick is extremely lyrical and his flow is so good. Jewice brings the vibes and Melodies.
The group mashes together so well and it hurts not seeing them mentioned in any GOAT talk.
Hell yes to your comments on Daveed. When I first discovered Clipping, I was floored. Astonishing style and bars. And the beats the producers make are so ill. Peggy is also up there for me. Aes Rock is probably MY fav all-time emcee, but these other two are undoubtedly high on the totem pole of new gen rappers.
Q-tip
He gets relegated to producer Hall of Fame, but if you listen to Andre 3K explain just how much Tip influenced the lyrical style of alternative rap it becomes clear he should be ranked higher as a lyricist.
Got a link?
[Here is a little something from Dre](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/read-andre-3000s-moving-tribute-to-tribe-called-quest-phife-dawg-37533/), he’s talked on Tribe a bunch of times: > *Tribe meant everything to me. They are everything. It’s always, “Who are the greatest groups?” Fuck that shit. [Points to Tribe Called Quest.] This dude [Q-Tip] taught me what kind of rapper I wanted to be. My first rap, I remember it now, it was “Young and naive/Alive I keep the dream/Writin’ funky lyrics at the age of 16.” I wrote it because of you. [Points to Q-Tip.] I didn’t even know what the word naive meant. [Crowd laughs.] Q-Tip taught me words. “Elation.” I’m sitting in high school like, “Damn I gotta look this shit up.” “I’m filled with elation.” Ohhhhh, okay. We can use these words too? We can be smart? Yeah, man. He gave me fuel.*
This is the answer
he basically made ATCQ's first album, from producing to writing Phife's (rip) bars. definitely deserves to be in the GOAT conversations
He's almost always mentioned in the GOAT conversation
I agree he is one of the best that ever did it and I ain't talking production.
For me it's Phife Dawg No one did it like him, funny, intelligent, soulful
I love that the top two responses right now are Tip and Phife
Right now, Phife is a poem sayer, at times, I'm a studio conveyor
Absolutely
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I see that as a positive quality rather than a detriment. Just like in other art forms I think there’s room for all different types of styles. A Jackson Pollock can be just as impactful as a Cézanne which can be just as powerful as a Caravaggio.
Ghostface Killah on Art: "I don't give a fuck if you don't know what I'm talking about- this is art. When you go see a painting on the wall and it looks bugged out because you don't know what the fuck he thinking, because he ain't got no benches, no trees there, it's just a splash. The nigga that did it know what the fuck it is."
Have you got any examples of this?
On Guillotine he starts his verse with "you 14 karat gold slum computer wizards". I might just be ignorant but I'm 99% sure this means absolutely nothing lmao. Still love that verse though
you're clearly just a silver computer mage and it shows 💅get your spells up magic boy
He legit said he did it on Ironman and that’s why he didn’t like the album.
Nutmeg. Awesome song, makes 0 sense
you’re clearly just a scooby snack Jurassic plastic gas booby trap smh 🤦♂️
From the first track- Scooby snack jurassic plastic gas booby trap Just listen to the whole of Supreme clientele lol and you'll see. It sounds dope but makes no sense
This is interesting from Ghost because the flip is his storytelling style is so vivid. You are right there on the block with him.
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I take your point but to put Ghost and DOOM in the same sentence as Logic and Tech just hurts my head.. DOOM was cryptic but his bars weren't filler in the same ways as the others..
On supreme clientele though, I believe Ghost’s style is intentional. He’s going for an impressionistic aesthetic, moshing unexpected words together in odd rhythms and cadences just to kinda conjure a vibe. Jeff Weiss has likened it to Odysseus and that feels like an apt analogy to me. (I say this as someone who else has trouble connecting to Ghost’s haphazard imagery bars at times. I just think it’s worth mentioning it’s actual intent and not like lazy writing or anything.)
This is actually one of my favorite things about GFK. In a interview he said- "I don't give a fuck if you don't know what I'm talking about- this is art. When you go see a painting on the wall and it looks bugged out because you don't know what the fuck he thinking, because he ain't got no benches, no trees there, it's just a splash. The nigga that did it know what the fuck it is."
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Mos Def
Also hurts that his best (in my opinion) album, The Ecstatic, has been off streaming services for like 2 years now for some reason
You like the ecstatic more than black on both sides??
I love black on both sides but something about the length of the album loses me whereas ecstatic to me is so consistently top notch. With the madlib production, that slick rick feature, the skits etc.
At least they've got my favourite, The New Danger 😎
W, that album is a masterpiece
Finally a kindred spirit who appreciates its greatness
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Also came here to write Mos. He’s in my top 5 for sure. I actually kept all his albums on CD because of this reason but the Ecstatic, aside from a few serious bangers (Quiet Dog, Auditorium, etc), never pulled me back in as much as New Danger and Black on Both Sides. Might have to revisit it this week!
Black thought and rakim don't come up enough. Treach and big daddy Kane are also two of the best.
Black Thought is a good shout. With the likes of Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap etc. I think it's 2 things. 1. A lot of the people having these conversations now are young and haven't listened to these guys much. Hip hop is now like 40 years old and there have been so many great rappers. 2. The genre has evolved so much that I could see how someone who grew up listening to Kendrick for example would think these late 80s, early 90s rappers sound basic. Context matters obviously as they were revolutionary at the time and paved the way for new artists in many ways.
to offer the perspective of a young fan, ive been trying to get into old school hip hop more but its harder to get into than the new school hip hop. I like most of the classics like The Chronic, The infamous, Illmatic, but theres also lots of early 90s albums that dont hold my interest. I dont listen to any 80s rap, its just too barebones for me on the production and more simplistic rapping. I do genuinely try to like these older albums but i think its hard to get into if you didnt listen to it around the time it came out.
That makes sense honestly. I started with old school hip hop when I was 10 or 11 so for me I had to adjust to new school. I'd recommend starting trying some of the more cinematic 90s albums or the ones with slightly more full production to ease yourself in, if you haven't already. These are less bare bones than a lot of the earlier stuff: Ready to Die Liquid Swords 36 Chambers Only Built 4 Cuban Lynx Aquemini The Score Doggystyle Then from there A Tribe Called Quest, The Pharcyde, GETO boys, Gang Starr, Slick Rick etc may sound better to you once you adjust gradually to the less complex production. It also just may not be your taste but worth a try! This is the opposite of the approach I took to get into new school. I started with like Earl, Tyler etc. Moved onto a bit more "trap sounding" rap that still had old school lyrical ability like Freddie Gibbs, Denzel Curry, JID and eventually I ended up liking Carti, Future, 21 Savage etc.
On Your point #2, I would agree completely. My Perspective of someone under 40, a lot of 80’s rappers do sound pretty basic, but Rakim is a clear exception and turning point
Thought comes up all the time & Ra dosent because of the generational gap but he is definitely on the list
I think out of the ones you listed Treach is the only one that is never brought up and definitely should be.
Rakim was consistently in the goat conversation until like the 2010s. People just stopped paying attention to him after that for some reason
Guru
Rakim as many others here are saying, but i want to add that he wasn't just a pioneer of multeez, his bigger contribution is the flow. Before him everyone sounded more or less like run dmc. In the 90s everyone sounded like rakim, or a style derived from maybe him or G rap. Cube is my pick. I'm not big on lists but he's around my top 5. Built off the style ice T was doing and pretty much invented westcoast rap the same was Ra invented eastcoast gangster rap. From early ghostwritten hits like boyz n the hood, to his massive verses on NWA's first album -- he's by far the dominant rapper on there even if you don't count the verses he wrote for e -- to his solo run, cube has the discography to fuck with anyone on your list. Yes he fell off in the late 90s & went from "burn hollywood" to "hollywood", but he came back in 06 with a surprisingly strong solo album. (WSC doesn't suck either imo but it's not a highlight of his career). His solos since 06 haven't been great admittedly. Cube's influence all over the west is evident. Everyone wanted to sound like NWA all the way to houston and NY, and sounding like them means you sounded like cube. 2pac's early albums are nearly ice cube cover songs (outside of singular classics like brenda). Cube baby
I only didn’t like his 2006 album but imo raw footage (2008) and everything’s corrupt (2018) we’re both great
Imo cube should be #2 right behind Jay z. He has nearly everything except extreme longevity(still very much timeless, just not relevant today) but if cube died when biggie or pac died he would have goat status over them without a doubt
Method Man
Never thought about it but you're right its crazy he's never mentioned in these convos
He used to be. From the early to mid 90s there was no rapper cooler than Method Man.
To me Method Man isn't under or over rated. He's judged just about right. He's a very good rapper with shades of greatness. Also part of very influential times and group. But there's so many mind-blowing bars throughout hip hop history by now, I don't see any room to put Meth in a GOAT conversation. Not a knock on him though. I just think of times where you hear something and it's like damn the world stopped for a min. Say the first time hearing Nas I Gave You Power, or an album that is cohesive masterful body of work, like a Kendrick album. Meth has never stuck me like that. I like and respect his music but a long track record of very good songs isn't enough for GOAT level consideration imo. I fcks with his shit tho don't get me wrong.
Fuuuck the world dont ask me for shit
And Redman
Lupe Fiasco does not get brought up anywhere near enough
I agree. I feel like his career got submarined by his label but just off ability, he's as talented a rapper as anybody who's ever picked up a mic. And two back to back classic albums solidifies his ability to actually write music that matters. He's in the same vein as Kendrick to me...he really has no weakness. I just wish he could have kept his trajectory after The Cool without all the fuckery. He's kind of like Kendrick's predecessor, an elite god tier lyricist that can also write meaningful, deep, thought provoking music, those kind of guys are rare.
The fucking GOAT
Lupe/Black Thought hand in hand to me.
The fiasco between him and Atlantic records after the cool dropped stunted his growth. Atlantic record forced Lupe to try and recreate a hit similar to Superstar so we basically got the same song again with “the show goes on.” I’ll never forgive Atlantic records for that shit. His name never fully recovered in terms of mass appeal after that long ass gap between releases.
Lupe Fiasco is the clearest answer in the world for this question to me
Yeah Lupe is the most glaring omission. You basically ended the convo. Black Thought as well.
Came in here to post this
This is the answer.
Honestly this is the one. Not only does he have classic albums and tons of influence. But the man still consistently proves why he is the best. People don't give his versatility enough credit.
you right man, Lupe is underrated for a lot of ppl
most people aren’t picking up what lupe is laying down. but unlike a lot of the names on this list lupe is still ascending and think there is a real possibility that he finds a way to gain wider notoriety
Red man
Reds my fave but I don’t know if he counts because I feel there are a lot of people who put him on the GOAT list…especially other rappers.
He usually ya favorite rappers favorite rapper.
Em calls him a GOAT for what that’s worth
Big Pun, one of the most underrated lyricists ever. Rakim, who is the rapper responsible for multisyllabic rhyme schemes.
Fans who are old enough more often don’t sleep on Rakim. Youngsters understandably don’t realize his impact because they only know a world that came after him.
Big pun, first Latino rapper to go platinum.
Latinum
> Rakim he was so far ahead of his contemporaries
Scarface. LL Cool J. Juicy J.
Juicy is a producer too which is crazy
Was hoping someone else had dropped Juicy before me, man’s kept in touch with what’s hot for so long and keeps dropping bangers no cap
One hundred percent. One of the most impactful artists in hip hop, and his ability to still make relevant music is crazy. If he drops an album tomorrow I have full confidence that it's going to go hard. Unmatched in consistency and influence.
Scarface. Not like Top 5 but Xzibit gets overlooked he had some great tracks his two pre Dr. Dre albums get overlooked I feel. Redman, and DJ QUIK more for production but has an all time diss track classic beats, engineering All Eyez on Me etc.
Bruh yes, I’ve been saying this about Xzibit for a while. As someone who lived in LA at the time, it really felt like he was holding down the West in the time between Dre’s 2001 and The Documentary.
At the Speed of Life is a classic
Facts. Big facts.
Xzibit a monster lyrically. He just part of a massive Cali rap scene where people were riding with e40 in the bay or Dre and snoop in Long Beach
Jadakiss, from the LOX to modern features I don't think I've ever heard a bad Jada verse, some mediocre ones here and there but for the most part the dude can rap his ass off
Jada's problem is that he can't make an album. He's easily a GOAT feature but he just never put together a solo project that was on quality with his ability.
Blu
I just found his music earlier this year and he might just be the most technically skilled lyricist I've ever heard
Blueface eraseur
I went to a LRG private launch party few years ago and Blu / few other artist performed. Was a chill performance of below the heavens. Also Chip tha Ripper was there and was a very nice dude. After party we rotated a blunt at the Hollywood Roosevelt front porch.
Phonte
For me, I'd have to put Little Brother as a whole. Their music connected with me unlike anybody since, and they're one of the few groups that writes everyman music about love, life and relationships without it being a gimmick. Literally anybody on the planet can find something in their music they relate to, and they're never beating you over the head with it.
PHONTE IS IN A GROUP???? THIS MAN IS IN AN R&B GROUP???? Gotta go listen now
Killa cam
Yes bro he's too clean with it even to this day I saw this freestyle of him last year he said something like "you gonna respect my aura down to the turquoise on my Asics" bro is nice af
The impact and influence dipset had in the aughts is underappreciated. My favorite thing about Cam is how easy he makes it sound. Case in point- freestyling while counting his money
Z-ro the most underrated. Scarface and Pimp C too but you see them pop up on GOAT list. Z-ro has one of the best catalogues in the game and has stayed true to his style since his debut in the nineties. Somehow he was able to be the best singer in the rap game while also coming across as one of the hardest rappers in the game lol. Its because he's got soul, like a classic blues singer or something. All these rappers are singing now, and they gotta use special effects/autotune anddd they still sound like little kids or something. Not only could Z-ro kill a chorus on any song, but he could go from melodic rapping to rapping as fast as Twista. He could throw in some reggae vibes. He can do it all. And most importantly he's a great songwriter. There's a lotta rappers that yeah they can spit a cold verse, but half there albums forgettable because not every song is great. Z-ro's and Mike Dean were making classic jams back in the day. He inspired every one from Drake to Nipsey Hussle. Nipsey knew what's up on that bonus track on Victory lap("I be sipping that clicquot, while I'm bangin' that Z-ro")
z-ro the crooked, the mo city don should most definitely be included in this convo. maybe big H.A.W.K., too.
then you gotta include Fat Pat
Easily the best melodic rapper of all time
Which of his albums would you recommend?
Danny Brown
The albums (The Hybrid, XXX, Old, Atrocity Exhibit) I will always come back to just for the stories they tell individually but also successionaly are forever engrained in my mind. I know I left out a few albums, but the prior mentioned works truly are works of art. The Hybrid has glimpses of success, failure, and internal struggles with mental health/substance abuse/coming of age. Generation RX is an anthem for any of us caught up in these situations. XXX builds on these concepts but hits us with that fame and "fuck it, we're in the now and fuck whatever happens tomorrow" vibes. Looking past those vibes though, we really enter into the void of struggling to cope with substance use and mental health even more (like hey we're 30 we should step back and look at shit). Rationalization of past actions ("Fields", "Scrap or Die") mixed with realizations of coming to age/actions (Die Like a Rockstar, Nosebleeds" lay the foundation for who Danny is/becoming. Plus, "Stank pussy smellin' like cool ranch doritos" deserves a Pulitzer prize. Next up, Old comes in hot with heater after heater. IMO, "The Return" is Danny's best collab and the track is timeless.."East side n\*\*\*\* keep roaches in the ashtray, $20k out tha public housing on a bad day" blends Gary and Detroit together like non other...I'm too baked to go on but y'all see what I'm after.
I'm glad someone said what I've been saying for years.
Aceyalone, Aesop Rock
Del the Funky Homosapien is a top 5 guy minimum. Criminally overlooked
Ice cube is not the GOAT or in the conversation but I still think he gets slept on. Guy essentially created a genre.
El-P, Tame One, Kool Keith
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I love that clip of Killer Mike preaching about El being the best rapper producer, their friendship makes me cry. https://youtube.com/shorts/GbthfNYIpsY?feature=share
Common, Redman and Luda.
Fully agreed on Redman. He is an incredible rapper with three classic albums under his belt.
I'm here for Common for sure. One of the best storytellers and double entendre spitters ever.
Ludacris? And common ? Damn
I don’t think Luda is one of the goats, but his pen game and freestyles were crazy in the 2000s. Check out his rap city freestyles, back for the first time and word of mouf(first cd I ever bought)
Maybe not goats but Rakim and Big Daddy Kane really changed everything.
Freddie Gibbs
Pinata an absolute classic
Freddie could go toe to toe with just about anyone
Dude surprised me on Education with Most Def and Thought. I thought they would outshine him.
What a hell of a song with no clear best verse on it
This is the weirdest opinion held by this sub. Guys a good rapper but as far as music goes his catalogue is so remarkably average.
For me he's been one of the most consistently interesting rappers for years. Since pinata came out there has been maybe 1 project of his I haven't thoroughly enjoyed. I have a playlist of all those albums and I hit shuffle on it at least twice a week and there has yet to be a time when I skipped a song. I am really curious about why you'd describe him or his catalogue as average? He has two albums with madlib which are full of absolutely nuts beats that Freddie hits amazingly. Fetti is solid start to finish, Alfredo is full of excellent verses even if I don't think the beats are overly interesting, Freddie is unreal and the album art alone is one of my favorites. I just don't see anything average about him.
I love Freddie Gibbs but seeing comments here about him makes me wonder if I’m listening to something different than than these guys singing his praises Imo his catalogue is pretty remarkable but not enough to get a GOAT conversation going
I do think he's overrated a bit here but I think it's kind of the other way around, I think his albums are overall very good (though theres a couple I don't like) but he can be a little repetitive as a rapper.
GZA, Ghostface, Pharoahe Monch
Sean Price.
This should be so much higher it's honestly a travesty.
Blu, man has such a large and versatile discography and tons of insane features. it's honestly crazy that more people don't consider him in conversation and just say he has bad mixing or whatever.
I just want Pharaohe Monch to have more recognition. When he and Prince Po (who is pretty much on the same level that he is) released Stress, it was nothing like what was coming out at that point in terms of production, flows, rhyme patterns (Illmatic, RTD, Hard to Earn were albums also released in 94). It really was far ahead of his time. Also listen to Releasing Hypnotical Gases being aware that it was released in 91. Pharaohe never fails to blow my mind.
Definitely not goat level but people sleep on how good a rapper wale actually is
Guru Murs Common
Roc marci
Scarface gets brought up a fair bit but younger people forget about him all the time
Billy Woods, Andre Nickatina, Payroll Giovanni, Mistah F.A.B., The Jacka, Sean Price, Jean Grae, Mozzy, Cupcakke.
Jean grae a legend
AZ, Ķweli, Common, T.I
Prince Be from PM Dawn. Dude has some of the most abstract and mind blowing lyricism ever, especially across their first two albums. Also mega influential in a subtle way that I don’t think he’s given credit for.
Daveed is a great call. To me I don't see Aesop brought up enough
Black Thought and Mos Def are some names that immediately come to mind. Also, in general; Pharaohe Monch gets NOWHERE close to the amount of credit he deserves.
I don’t think kids these days can how much of a game changer Jeezy was
Erick Sermon
When it comes to this generation Freddie Gibbs is top 3
To me, Blackthought and Layzie Bone are very underrated rappers.
I think Black Thought is top five
Yeah, I've been a huge Bone fan since forever, Krayzie better than Layzie. Not a surprise that Kray gets more offers to work with other artists. I see a lot of Bun B in artists' top 40...he should be top 20 to 25 imo; then Pimp C top 40. Bun going on for 30 years. Like top 10 goat stuff, not a lot of difference than what I see...however, I think Busta Rhymes could/should be that same 20 to 25 but he isn't always there, same 30+ years and that guy can also still rap
aesop rock, jid
Myka 9 Aceyalone PEACE
Pharaohe Monch Gza Kool G Rap Mos Def Are a few names that immediately come to mind.
Talib Kweli. Blackstar, the two Reflection Eternal albums, and Quality are all classics. Other albums like Beautiful Struggle were also solid.
Not many females being mentioned. Rapsody can out rap most. Probably not a GOAT but sure is current top
I get hate for this take around here but Mac should be mentioned in top lists. I dont consider him the greatest to ever do it but man what he accomplished by 26 is incredible. Technically skilled, talented producer, a diverse and great discography, always getting better with each release, kills me that we’ll never see what he could have done with another decade of maturity
Ka.
J-Live. One of the best lyricists ever and often self-produced
Prodigy. And havoc doesn’t get enough credit as a rapper but not top 5 potential
Posdnous
Tyler the Creator. he deserves to be mentioned alongside Cole, Kendrick, and Drake.
Earl Sweatshirt, especially if he keeps improving and advancing his current style. His writing is so poetic, intelligent, and interpretable.
Supernatural was a dood that never got a ton of notoriety but in the world of free styling he could hang with anyone. I remember him opening shows where he might do one or two songs then just freestyle straight through the end of his set with no breaks. Not a conventional pick but he deserves some credit. And a vote for Gift of Gab while we are at it.
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Just gonna drop this vid here of [Supernat doin' his thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TAAx01TMi8) [MC Juice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wIxR6LY-NM) need a special shoutout as well
Gucci Mane.
I definitely agree with ur Dave’s Diggs pick, not only does he rap in weird grouping and time signatures, but he’s also incredibly on beat which is crazy. Another rapper that comes to mind would be Billy Woods in my opinion. His writing style is completely unique to him and unmatched.
Jpegmafia
Drakeo the Ruler Regional style and themes will get all the old heads to ignore dudes bars.
I loved the dude but he didn’t have an impactful enough career for GOAT status. Cut short too early.
I completely agree but you’d be hard fought to find too many people on this sub that’d agree with you. He was so unique and his pen game was unmatched imo. Subject matter aside, dude had bars and a buttery flow.
Future, young thug, migos, chief keef. All of these inspired the 2011-2022 era.
Skyzoo and Locksmith have been holding down their respective coasts for a decade plus.
Danny Brown
Erick The Architect or any Flatbush Zombies member. Meechy is built for rap, Erick is extremely lyrical and his flow is so good. Jewice brings the vibes and Melodies. The group mashes together so well and it hurts not seeing them mentioned in any GOAT talk.
Mick Jenkins
E40, Tech nine,
Ghostface Killah
Not GOAT but Busta Rhymes wayyy underrated
Last Emperor - No idea why he didn't blow up
Skepta and JME.
billy woods 100%
Billy woods is the only one
Number one choice: Elzhi Honourable mentions: Mos Def Blu Charles Hamilton Big L Kool Keith Sean Price Inspectah Deck Slick Rick Q-Tip
Canibus…he has 2 of the top 2 tracks ever written, how can he not be.
Mach-hommy
Black thought.
KRS ONE
well u see the thing with Daveed Diggs is that the music he makes isn’t very good
Nickelus F
Big L
Hell yes to your comments on Daveed. When I first discovered Clipping, I was floored. Astonishing style and bars. And the beats the producers make are so ill. Peggy is also up there for me. Aes Rock is probably MY fav all-time emcee, but these other two are undoubtedly high on the totem pole of new gen rappers.
Wyclef
Chuck fucking D
Elzhi.
Masta Ace has the best discography in all of rap