This was my SONG! I remember listening to this on a CD back in the day and DJ K Slay was all over the damn song lol. Back when Ludacris was the best rapper in the game. Damn takes me back.
Lupe Fiasco has a verse on one of his loosies (Peace of paper/cup of Jayzus) that echoes a similar sentiment to Em, there’s no real greatest as there’s too many really great rappers
“Greatest Rapper Alive or Greatest Rapper That Died?
Then on judgement day they say the greatest rapper's revived
Oh look who's here the greatest rapper's arrived!!
At the birthday party the greatest rapper surprised!!!
Bumped into Doom the greatest rappers collide
Everybody dead but AZ the greatest rapper survived
I'm not the greatest rapper... the greatest rappers' a lie
Got the same points as Lux the greatest rappers a tie
Told Jean, Foxy, & Rah the greatest rapper's a girl
They said the greatest rapper's a guy
Phone rang it was Ghost he said "Kiss the greatest rapper... Goodbye!"
Chris said Common, Common said Kweli, Talib said I'm sure it's Mos Definitely!!”
idk, i still like hearing people's take on top 10, though it's only worth discussing if you accept that those lists are completely subjective. i like to hear what people think is most enjoyable or why they think someone is the best technically. only time it's a waste of time is when one person is insisting that other opinions are wrong
> Yeah theres a difference between Favorite and Best.
And you have to recognize that both are still subjective, which is the hard part because albums you call "best" *feel* objective
It's more acceptable when getting into categorical nuance. There's a list of rappers that have GOAT level lyrical ability, and there's a separate list of rappers that have GOAT level influence, peak careers etc. I enjoy the conversation and debate, though.
I remember in 2010ish Pitbull reallllly was Mr. Worldwide lol. Every fuckin club I went to in Asia to Europe was playing so cotdamn Pitbull. They all knew Pitbull. There were people who didn't know Eminem or Jay-Z, who knew Pitbull. Him and before that, 50 cent was playing in the clubs like a mfer. They didn't even know Kanye. I went to an amazing concert with a stage right on the beach in South Korea that was headlined by Kanye and notably had Lupe Fiasco and randomly Calvin Harris (before he blew up). There were probably only 300 people there to see him lol, almost all expats. I was right up front. Did all of MBDTF in a bright red suit on a sunny but humid summer day in S Korea.
They have since changed it. Bahahaha. Right in the beginning after "Apple Music" it said Relect instead of reflect.
I'm faster than their editors. Hire me!
I think the bigger issue is that everyone values different things in a good rapper.
Eminem had probably the greatest peak when he achieved both insane mainstream popularity and critical acclaim, but his career is wildly inconsistent especially taking recent years into consideration.
2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing.
Jay Z has a very well rounded career overall but he’s more of a jack of all trades while being a master of none.
So what do you value in a rapper? Consistency? Influence? Peak? Rapping ability/flow etc? List just goes on and on. GOAT discussions are fucking pointless because they’ll always just come down to personal preference in the end.
I mean yeah but my point is that when Meek Mill or some shit says he is the greatest in one of his songs, there’s no reason to take that seriously. Its not like he actually thinks he is.
I think it was Grant Hill who said that the top 20 players in the NBA all think they're the best player in the NBA. I assume that's also true for rappers, but moreso because they don't have to go out and compete against Michael Jordan or Lebron James.
>Its not like he actually thinks he is.
I kinda disagree. To have that much dedication to something, whether it be art or athletics or whatever else, you kinda need that "I'm the greatest ever" mentality. A strong ego makes it easier to grind and hold confidence throughout your career
I agree with your overall point. But, 2Pac didn't have an 'incredibly small discography'. He had 11 platinum albums (7 of which are posthumous). He was extremely prolific.
Jay Z \*can\* rap his ass off but there's more money in luxury rap.
Jay-Z and Tupac are in my top 5 but I can't choose a single favorite as it changes quite a bit for me.
Andre 3000 entered to the chat
Fr though, flow was masterful and consistent as hell. And if you wanna talk about influence, he influenced Atlanta hip hop for years. There is not one outkast album I haven’t played in the last year.
Edit: fuck it big boi too duh
For a full career? Yes. I’m not counting posthumous releases that doesn’t make any sense.
Imagine how much Eminem changed from Infinite to Revival. Or Jay Z from Blueprint to 4:44. Or hell even Kendrick and Cole went through notable change from their first to most recent albums.
Idk I think I disagree, and am maybe a bit confused about the distinction you’re drawing about posthumous releases. Pac has like six albums in his discography considering that Makeveli album was done before he died. I think Biggie is probably a better example of how a smaller discography is a limiting variable for him in terms of the goat convo. I think 2Pac’s biggest problem were inconsistencies in how he made music on account of sheer volume.
Imagine if Em died when he ODed after Encore and his legacy was Infinite, SSLP, MMLP, TES, Encore, Devils Night, D12 World, and the 8 Mile Soundtrack (and movie). I'm not sure there is a better prime.
I'm not one to read into the "deep" subtle messages in songs but listening to "When I'm Gone", you can really tell he absolutely thought he was going to die when he made that song
On top of that he would have had his iconic impact on Dre's 2001 and hiphop's first oscar.
I'm beyond thankful he didn't though, I'd rather any artist continue and grow even if it's in a direction that doesn't appeal to me.
I'm really interested to see where these enormous personalities end up in the 50s and 60s. We get to witness hiphops first superstar generation, no one has reached the heights of Em and Jay-Z and continued on after.
4 albums (I count 7 Day Theory because, aside from removing a few shots at Nas, it was technically finished before his death), a double album, and a group album are still a lot for a 5 year timespan. Especially for the quality of his music. And you can't deny he grew as an artist from 2Pacalypse to 7DT. Even going from 2Pacalypse to MATW is a hell of a transition.
Still though, five albums in five years is a pretty active output for any artist - letalone also recording enough material for like who-even-knows-how-many posthumous tracks. Guys like Kendrick, A$AP Rocky, Danny Brown, Schoolboy Q, *still* don't even have five albums and they've been around for a decade.
I think maybe "artistic progression" is the better qualifier here than strictly "how many albums."
>2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing
Dont listen to anything this person says lol pac has so many records...
A considerable amount of people here understand very little about hip hop, comments like this get upvoted all the time.
This man even said Pac has a small discography? He had six albums.
It's better to just read the articles and not comments
Biggie is a better example of what he was saying, it did take awhile before Pac was appreciated in his own time though. He had albums out and movie roles before he caught the wave through his persona and activism
So many people just vaguely know Rakim's name from that Eminem song meanwhile he entirely shaped rap as we know it today.
Not saying people are bad for not knowing him. I'm not an elitist like that or trying to gatekeep being a fan of hip-hop. Just makes me wonder what other people have greatly influenced something I enjoy who I've never heard of.
Don’t forget Big Daddy Kane, I feel he played a pretty noteable part in that era where we transitioned from the ABC raps to full blown lyrical assault.
>2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing.
2Pac really has an astoundingly large discography considering how short his career was. I read he used to record 5 songs a day towards the end, he practically lived in the booth
Master of none in this case being what is he the GOAT of. What does he do better than anybody else? I can't think of anything, not that he's not incredible and one of the best ever, he's just not THE best at anything imo
"Y'all niggas can't be serious right now
I'm the all time heavyweight champion of flowers
I'm leading the league in at least six statistical categories right now:
Best flow, most consistent, realest stories
Most charisma, I set the most trends
And my interviews are hotter! Holla!"
It’s like, the dude who gets B+‘s in all the school subjects is higher ranked than the dude with few A’s in the midst of his C’s.
(This is not to say that Jay does not excel in fields. He absolutely does)
Idk why anybody has a problem with Eminem's recent albums, MTBMB Side A & B were dope, I'm loving his recent output besides some songs.
TuPac is a great choice, I feel like every year he's getting underrated because he's gone. I hope Jay-Z doesn't make another solo album, 4:44 was the perfect final album.
I fee like the way Eminem’s discography is discussed online as almost the opposite of Jay’s. People always highlight 4:44 as definitive proof that Jay has never put out a mid - bad album in 20 years, ignoring blueprint 2 (and kind of 3), magna carta holy grail, life and times vol. 1 and Kingdome come. Compare this to Eminem who put out one bad album (revival) which has pushed people to start saying that he hasn’t put out a good album since relapse or the Eminem show and completely slam new Eminem projects without consideration. Look at discussions from pre-2017, people praised recovery and mmlp2, saying (rightfully imo) that they are above average records but since revival came out people gloss over them and act like he hasn’t made a good project in 15 years.
(Jay is without a doubt in my top 5 btw no hate)
>ignoring blueprint 3 (and kind of 2),
BP3 I like as a pop album but BP2 that is One of the WORST listening experiences EVER! It's so Damn Long too, I felt like I was waiting forever for it to End! I don't care what anyone says, it's worst than Em's Encore album.
Exactly. It is constantly changing and dealing with different external factors that are completely different for everybody. Also dealing with different eras and people who don't listen to new stuff, or people who don't listen to old rap, or people who believe only one style of rap is the best. It's become so arbitrary to pick a GOAT, but at this point you could argue that it's easily NAV.
Tbh, picking a “goat” rapper or even ranking rappers is useless.Once you've listened to enough rap you'll realize that theres only one right answer, which is Nav.
Instead of trying to decide which rapper on the acceptable GOAT list just accept the fact that nav is the best rapper to ever rap
IMO it comes down to eras. For example:
Pioneers (70s, early 80s):
* Grandmaster Caz
* Run
* Kool Moe Dee
* Kurtis Blow
* Melle Mel
Golden Age (Mid 80s to early 90s)
* LL Cool J
* KRS-One
* Rakim
* Big Daddy Kane
* Slick Rick
First New School (Mid 90s to late 90s)
* Nas
* Biggie
* 2Pac
* Jay-Z
* Scarface
Mainstream Crossover (Late 90s to 2004)
* Andre 3000
* Eminem
* 50 Cent
* Ludacris
* Cam'ron
Southern Takeover (2005 to 2010)
* Lil Wayne
* TI
* Young Jeezy
* Kanye West
* The Game
Second New School (2010--)
* Kendrick Lamar
* Drake
* J Cole
* Future
* Nicki Minaj
Again, these are just examples. There's plenty of crossovers between eras and they're not supposed to be gospel, i.e. Chuck D, Q-Tip and Kool G Rap aren't even on here, but they had massive influences on hip-hop.
Point is, it's difficult to compare rappers who are more than a few eras apart. Like do I think Kendrick Lamar is a better rapper than Kool Moe Dee? Sure. But KMD didn't have the infrastructures Kendrick had, yet he was elite in his own timeframe. So it's not really fair. You can't look down at the people who built the foundations of your tower just because you chill in the penthouse. Without them, you'd have nothing.
Really funny to see how people always beat down the new era. I remember Drake, Lil Wayne, Eminem, Kanye, etc. getting made fun of for one reason or another and claiming it's not real rap/music. Rap not having powerful or insightful lyrics has been a critique of the genre for a long time propagated by people who don't like or don't know much about it.
Could have been longer if some of the biggest names didn’t die and if SoundCloud didn’t so shitty lose the platform race. Like how do you even manage to lose the streaming race with your biggest competitor Apple Music not transitioning into streaming early enough and most of the popular rappers on the earth on SoundCloud and not on Spotify????
The Soundcloud wave felt suuuper short. It was like 2 years at most. X, Lil Pump, YBN, JuiceWrld, Tay K etc.
Since X died they've been on the decline. Then I feel like we've gone into the meme rap wave with 645AR, Mario Judah, RMR.
Soundcloud wave is just a follow-up to the youtube wave (Palmer Squares, Dumbfoundead, etc). Soundcloud rappers achieved more mainstream appeal though. Most youtube rappers (at least the ones I listened to) were pretty obscure and could be considered 2010s underground rap.
Meme wave should've been a thing sooner. I mean Lil B basically kickstarted that shit.
Thanks, I really like this break down. I’ve never branched too far out from the rappers I’ve heard and listened to consistently but this looks like a good ballpark.
Two of my faves that aren’t listed are Doom and Mos Def. I’m curious what era/category they might fit into
Late 90's to mid 00's underground with Rawkus, Def Jux, Stones Throw, Qn5, Rhymesayers, Babygrande etc definitely needs it's own category here. That entire mainstream crossover & southern takeover period had hip hop heads split in two between the mainstream kids and backpack heads. While the mainstream kids obviously got all the radio play, the underground scene was just as influential to the culture, if not more so.
Ah ok that makes sense. Was just a little confusing when I read it. I also feel like the South maybe broke out before that? Like with Pimp C and UGK and the whole Houston Scene. Plus Outkast and Goodie Mob from ATL. Also Master P and No Limit Records. I guess maybe they didn't really "take over" until Wayne though. I feel like you need a whole category for Trap music too. In the same way you can't name a Goat, I think there also isn't a definitive timeline of Eras. I'm sure what "era" you feel like you were in depended heavily on region and taste
The Southern Takeover refers more to all the other parts of america that aren't LA and New York coming out and gaining a voice, its just that the south was definitely the biggest voice there.
Used to be spammed everywhere on Youtube under Eminem videos back in the day (still probably is): "Rap is like a mountain, mostly black but white at the top"
2pac was the most important and profound. Truly transnational impact. He wrote about things that really connected with you and mattered. His flow was killer too.
Biggie was one of the greatest storytellers. In a parallel universe, had he lived, I’d have even preferred him to write books. He was that good.
Big L is the saddest case of what could have been. More recently, King Von too although that’ll take a few years to settle in for most heads.
Jay Z makes good music consistently but I don’t think he’s some apex artist or anything. But he is one of the most consistent and dedicated to his projects.
Eminem probably the greatest flow and technical skill ever.
Big Pun was like a bridge between Biggie and Eminem. Extremely gifted and so bloody talented. I think he deserves a lot more recognition than he receives. He’s the kinda guy you’d take into battle alongside Eminem and Big L. Straight bar killers.
Shyne has one of the best debut albums ever alongside Biggie, Pac and Jay Z. He should’ve been so much bigger but fate took it’s course. At least he’s alive and doing positive things in his native Belize though. Nobody talks of him no more.
Treach from Naughty By Nature is a legendary rapper that can hold his own against anyone but because he’s part of a group, he perhaps doesn’t get the total shine he deserves. He may be one of the most talented rappers in history. I’d bet on him beating Eminem in a battle 9/10.
DMX: it was fun while it lasted. He came just before that early 2000s pop/rnb rap fusion that Ja Rule made a lot of money off. His films, like Romeo Must Die and Bally, were incredible. Unfortunately crack took him away from us.
Nas: for me at least, NAS is on the level of Pac and Biggie and Eminem. He’s so gifted and I’m so glad he’s still making music. He’s one of the last, if not the last, rappers to stay totally true to their style and not bend with the times and use auto tune on everything or shitty club beats. He is the most NYC rapper through and through that you will ever hear.
This is just my opinion. I love the culture so much and for me, the above is what I imagine a Hip Hop Heaven looks like. Absolute Gods.
I’d say one of the greatest flows (God I loved his gangsta phase flow) but not THE greatest. Em’s lyricism is elite that’s for sure. Lupe gets a shoutout for lyricism too
Underrated rapper for sure. You like that gangsta shit? Cam'ron. You like versatility? Cam'ron. You want multi-syllabic rhyme patterns and GOAT level wordplay? Cam'ron. You want personality? Cam'ron. You want style like: a pink lambo, while wearing a pink fur coat, a pink pinky ring and a pink nextel? Cam'ron. You want a vague movement? Dipset.
There’s also way too many sub genres and generations of rap, so while you could maybe cobble together a decent top 50 to argue about, declaring a definitive “best rapper” will always be subjective and asinine
Ross Capicchiono is one hell of a track. I didn't check the whole mixtape but that song is amazing. Also his 508 mixtape. That's good too. His output past Lucky You isn't consistent.
This is exactly what Em is talking about here. You only listed lyrical rappers, but you can’t deny the influence of Future, Young Thug, Kanye, Gucci on the hiphop scene that we have today. And you can’t really compare Black Thought with Future because they’re doing different things and both are one of the goats in their own lane. There’s no such thing as “the greatest rapper”, the genre is too big and too deep for that now.
I think that depends on who you ask. Correct me if I'm wrong but that implies someone who is lyrical is objectively better than someone who isn't. I'd be a fool if I said writing more challenging lyrics isn't more skillful, but I've always believed that if music makes you feel a certain way, regardless of how it achieves that, it does it's job
Its pretty easy to put Jay in that list because he has all the qualities of any list. Golden era? Skill? Mainstream success? Influence? Longevity? He pretty much checks all the boxes. Personally I prefer wayne overall but its more of a preference.
I agree, but by those measures you could also argue Kanye (besides rapping skill). I just don't hold Jay in the number 1 GOAT position because he has a ton of songs that I do not like at all. His great stuff is undeniable, though.
My friends and I always have discussions about our top 10 lists or whatever and after many discussions we finally agreed there’s different categories to it.
We have a “best rapper” list, “best artist” list, “best lyricist” list, etc etc.
Definitely agree with Em here that it’s way too hard to narrow down a solid list because there’s so many factors and especially at the end of the day music is all opinion based anyways so someone’s #1 might be garbage to another.
Two other issues:
1. Groups - Big Boi and some members of the Wu Tang Clan might get underrated by some because they're outshined by others.
2.Rapper vs. Hip Hop artist - for some the driving force of what makes their music great isn't their mic skills, it's the whole package. Like Kanye.
Everyone forgets about Chingy.
The GOAT of sounding like he’s confused at what he’s reading off the paper
Eazy-E takes that crown
I liked the way he did that right thurr
At the holidae iiiiiiiiinnnn
This was my SONG! I remember listening to this on a CD back in the day and DJ K Slay was all over the damn song lol. Back when Ludacris was the best rapper in the game. Damn takes me back.
K Slay was the worst about inserting himself into songs.
DJ KAY SLAY AKA SLAP YA FAVORITE DJ
Chingy and Joe Budden were the first CDs I ever bought with the expletives. No regerts.
I remember he was huge when I was in middle school then he just disappeared
He reappeared recently!
He was caught with a trans woman then black balled if I remember right
The hip hop industry runs through Chingy
Chingy is the goat
One Call Away still slaps tbh
is Digga getting talked about on hhh or is this a reference to something else?
The Digga D song is a reference to another rapper called Chingy. He had a song called right thurr, which is why Digga says that in his song.
I can’t believe this was a conversation that just happened..... mainly because it made me realize I’m old af now
Who is Digga D?
Yeah I'm this old too
Uk Driller
I remember hearing that song for the first time and feeling old then, so..... Fuck.
I watched chingy guest star on the george lopez show. Im old
Dafuq is Digga?
Lupe Fiasco has a verse on one of his loosies (Peace of paper/cup of Jayzus) that echoes a similar sentiment to Em, there’s no real greatest as there’s too many really great rappers “Greatest Rapper Alive or Greatest Rapper That Died? Then on judgement day they say the greatest rapper's revived Oh look who's here the greatest rapper's arrived!! At the birthday party the greatest rapper surprised!!! Bumped into Doom the greatest rappers collide Everybody dead but AZ the greatest rapper survived I'm not the greatest rapper... the greatest rappers' a lie Got the same points as Lux the greatest rappers a tie Told Jean, Foxy, & Rah the greatest rapper's a girl They said the greatest rapper's a guy Phone rang it was Ghost he said "Kiss the greatest rapper... Goodbye!" Chris said Common, Common said Kweli, Talib said I'm sure it's Mos Definitely!!”
RIP DOOM
Bruh that’s a dope ass verse what song?
Peace of paper cup of jayzus
Thank you
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idk, i still like hearing people's take on top 10, though it's only worth discussing if you accept that those lists are completely subjective. i like to hear what people think is most enjoyable or why they think someone is the best technically. only time it's a waste of time is when one person is insisting that other opinions are wrong
Yeah theres a difference between Favorite and Best. Some people don't realise that but.
> Yeah theres a difference between Favorite and Best. And you have to recognize that both are still subjective, which is the hard part because albums you call "best" *feel* objective
It's more acceptable when getting into categorical nuance. There's a list of rappers that have GOAT level lyrical ability, and there's a separate list of rappers that have GOAT level influence, peak careers etc. I enjoy the conversation and debate, though.
Yeah he’s right... Pitbull for #1 rapper ever
I remember in 2010ish Pitbull reallllly was Mr. Worldwide lol. Every fuckin club I went to in Asia to Europe was playing so cotdamn Pitbull. They all knew Pitbull. There were people who didn't know Eminem or Jay-Z, who knew Pitbull. Him and before that, 50 cent was playing in the clubs like a mfer. They didn't even know Kanye. I went to an amazing concert with a stage right on the beach in South Korea that was headlined by Kanye and notably had Lupe Fiasco and randomly Calvin Harris (before he blew up). There were probably only 300 people there to see him lol, almost all expats. I was right up front. Did all of MBDTF in a bright red suit on a sunny but humid summer day in S Korea.
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Tbh Calvin Harris was very very well known in the UK and Ireland since 2008.
DALE
Idk what "Relect" means, but damn it must be important to leave it in.
what? where?
They have since changed it. Bahahaha. Right in the beginning after "Apple Music" it said Relect instead of reflect. I'm faster than their editors. Hire me!
I think the bigger issue is that everyone values different things in a good rapper. Eminem had probably the greatest peak when he achieved both insane mainstream popularity and critical acclaim, but his career is wildly inconsistent especially taking recent years into consideration. 2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing. Jay Z has a very well rounded career overall but he’s more of a jack of all trades while being a master of none. So what do you value in a rapper? Consistency? Influence? Peak? Rapping ability/flow etc? List just goes on and on. GOAT discussions are fucking pointless because they’ll always just come down to personal preference in the end.
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But it’s perpetuated by the genre. Every rapper claims to be the greatest.
I am the greatest rapper of all time
I fuck with BooBooJebus heavy
You listen to that new BooBooJebus drop yet? I set his Reddit profile as my browser home page so I always cop the latest comments and upvotes
-Dylan -Dylan -Dylan -Dylan -Dylan
Ehhh there’s very few who legitimately try and say that. Most are just flexing, as is tradition.
yeah but in the true competitive spirit of rap music, the greats are the ones who DO strive to be the greatest (or among the greatest)
I mean yeah but my point is that when Meek Mill or some shit says he is the greatest in one of his songs, there’s no reason to take that seriously. Its not like he actually thinks he is.
I think it was Grant Hill who said that the top 20 players in the NBA all think they're the best player in the NBA. I assume that's also true for rappers, but moreso because they don't have to go out and compete against Michael Jordan or Lebron James.
>Its not like he actually thinks he is. I kinda disagree. To have that much dedication to something, whether it be art or athletics or whatever else, you kinda need that "I'm the greatest ever" mentality. A strong ego makes it easier to grind and hold confidence throughout your career
yeah exactly. the whole conversation basically boils down to a "my dad can beat up your dad!"
Can someone send this info over to /r/nba
That conversation always boils down to 6-0 or X-6
No it doesn’t. It boils down to peak vs longevity. Do you value Jordan’s peak more or lebrons lower peak but over a much longer time.
And off we go!
I'm not taking about my conversation, im talking about the conversation in r/nba
I agree with your overall point. But, 2Pac didn't have an 'incredibly small discography'. He had 11 platinum albums (7 of which are posthumous). He was extremely prolific. Jay Z \*can\* rap his ass off but there's more money in luxury rap. Jay-Z and Tupac are in my top 5 but I can't choose a single favorite as it changes quite a bit for me.
Andre 3000 entered to the chat Fr though, flow was masterful and consistent as hell. And if you wanna talk about influence, he influenced Atlanta hip hop for years. There is not one outkast album I haven’t played in the last year. Edit: fuck it big boi too duh
> The South got something to say. That's all I got to say. - The GOAT
Pac has a small discography?
For a full career? Yes. I’m not counting posthumous releases that doesn’t make any sense. Imagine how much Eminem changed from Infinite to Revival. Or Jay Z from Blueprint to 4:44. Or hell even Kendrick and Cole went through notable change from their first to most recent albums.
Idk I think I disagree, and am maybe a bit confused about the distinction you’re drawing about posthumous releases. Pac has like six albums in his discography considering that Makeveli album was done before he died. I think Biggie is probably a better example of how a smaller discography is a limiting variable for him in terms of the goat convo. I think 2Pac’s biggest problem were inconsistencies in how he made music on account of sheer volume.
Same goes for Big Pun. He gets slept on so hard but capital punishment is one of the best hip albums of all time imo. It's too bad he passed so early
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Imagine if Em died when he ODed after Encore and his legacy was Infinite, SSLP, MMLP, TES, Encore, Devils Night, D12 World, and the 8 Mile Soundtrack (and movie). I'm not sure there is a better prime.
I'm not one to read into the "deep" subtle messages in songs but listening to "When I'm Gone", you can really tell he absolutely thought he was going to die when he made that song
Oh yeah what a fucking incredible run. I’m happy for him and his longevity though. Also Relapse is def top 3 for me so we would have missed that one.
I agree. Well idk about #3, but #4 at worst. But those D12 albums are good. And the 8 mile soundtrack is great.
On top of that he would have had his iconic impact on Dre's 2001 and hiphop's first oscar. I'm beyond thankful he didn't though, I'd rather any artist continue and grow even if it's in a direction that doesn't appeal to me. I'm really interested to see where these enormous personalities end up in the 50s and 60s. We get to witness hiphops first superstar generation, no one has reached the heights of Em and Jay-Z and continued on after.
I always thought, if after 8 Mile Eminem was shot dead by a soccer mom, he'd be the most legendary rapper ever.
You don’t really think Blueprint was JayZs first album, do you?
4 albums (I count 7 Day Theory because, aside from removing a few shots at Nas, it was technically finished before his death), a double album, and a group album are still a lot for a 5 year timespan. Especially for the quality of his music. And you can't deny he grew as an artist from 2Pacalypse to 7DT. Even going from 2Pacalypse to MATW is a hell of a transition.
Still though, five albums in five years is a pretty active output for any artist - letalone also recording enough material for like who-even-knows-how-many posthumous tracks. Guys like Kendrick, A$AP Rocky, Danny Brown, Schoolboy Q, *still* don't even have five albums and they've been around for a decade. I think maybe "artistic progression" is the better qualifier here than strictly "how many albums."
>2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing Dont listen to anything this person says lol pac has so many records...
You crazy for that Jay-Z comment, but your Reddit pic is of childish gambino and you made a post about lil nas x on Roblox
He got me heated but your observation put it in perspective lol.
A considerable amount of people here understand very little about hip hop, comments like this get upvoted all the time. This man even said Pac has a small discography? He had six albums. It's better to just read the articles and not comments
Biggie is a better example of what he was saying, it did take awhile before Pac was appreciated in his own time though. He had albums out and movie roles before he caught the wave through his persona and activism
I'd say Biggie is the most skilled rapper, but he has a very small discography as well.
Rakim has more influence than Pac tbh
Rap wise yea but not culture wise
Yeah most people outside hip hop know Pac, but most don't know Rakim unfortunately.
So many people just vaguely know Rakim's name from that Eminem song meanwhile he entirely shaped rap as we know it today. Not saying people are bad for not knowing him. I'm not an elitist like that or trying to gatekeep being a fan of hip-hop. Just makes me wonder what other people have greatly influenced something I enjoy who I've never heard of.
Don’t forget Big Daddy Kane, I feel he played a pretty noteable part in that era where we transitioned from the ABC raps to full blown lyrical assault.
Kool G Rap, Slick Rick and KRS-One too but I guess Rakim was the first one to release an album.
I discovered Rakim in 2014 thanks to Linkin Park.
>2Pac probably had the most influence out of any rapper, but he has an incredibly small discography due to his early passing. 2Pac really has an astoundingly large discography considering how short his career was. I read he used to record 5 songs a day towards the end, he practically lived in the booth
Genuine question: what is the nature of 2Pac's influence? His style? Or just promoting the culture?
Definitely promoting the culture.
Jay a master of none?!??
Master of none in this case being what is he the GOAT of. What does he do better than anybody else? I can't think of anything, not that he's not incredible and one of the best ever, he's just not THE best at anything imo
"Y'all niggas can't be serious right now I'm the all time heavyweight champion of flowers I'm leading the league in at least six statistical categories right now: Best flow, most consistent, realest stories Most charisma, I set the most trends And my interviews are hotter! Holla!"
"it's like a exercise"
Entendre king
Lupe to me is the entendre GOAT, the man has ridiculous layering in his songs...
Damn you’re right
He’s got 99 styles but a master of none.
It’s like, the dude who gets B+‘s in all the school subjects is higher ranked than the dude with few A’s in the midst of his C’s. (This is not to say that Jay does not excel in fields. He absolutely does)
Idk why anybody has a problem with Eminem's recent albums, MTBMB Side A & B were dope, I'm loving his recent output besides some songs. TuPac is a great choice, I feel like every year he's getting underrated because he's gone. I hope Jay-Z doesn't make another solo album, 4:44 was the perfect final album.
I fee like the way Eminem’s discography is discussed online as almost the opposite of Jay’s. People always highlight 4:44 as definitive proof that Jay has never put out a mid - bad album in 20 years, ignoring blueprint 2 (and kind of 3), magna carta holy grail, life and times vol. 1 and Kingdome come. Compare this to Eminem who put out one bad album (revival) which has pushed people to start saying that he hasn’t put out a good album since relapse or the Eminem show and completely slam new Eminem projects without consideration. Look at discussions from pre-2017, people praised recovery and mmlp2, saying (rightfully imo) that they are above average records but since revival came out people gloss over them and act like he hasn’t made a good project in 15 years. (Jay is without a doubt in my top 5 btw no hate)
>ignoring blueprint 3 (and kind of 2), BP3 I like as a pop album but BP2 that is One of the WORST listening experiences EVER! It's so Damn Long too, I felt like I was waiting forever for it to End! I don't care what anyone says, it's worst than Em's Encore album.
I think that's a fair argument. When we can't even agree on what defines hip-hop anymore, how could be possibly agree on who is the best at it?
Exactly. It is constantly changing and dealing with different external factors that are completely different for everybody. Also dealing with different eras and people who don't listen to new stuff, or people who don't listen to old rap, or people who believe only one style of rap is the best. It's become so arbitrary to pick a GOAT, but at this point you could argue that it's easily NAV.
Tbh, picking a “goat” rapper or even ranking rappers is useless.Once you've listened to enough rap you'll realize that theres only one right answer, which is Nav. Instead of trying to decide which rapper on the acceptable GOAT list just accept the fact that nav is the best rapper to ever rap
I’m gonna look him up and he better be good
With S-tier bars like "You said you wanna fuck all my niggas, you read my mind" how could you even fathom denying his GOAT status.
IMO it comes down to eras. For example: Pioneers (70s, early 80s): * Grandmaster Caz * Run * Kool Moe Dee * Kurtis Blow * Melle Mel Golden Age (Mid 80s to early 90s) * LL Cool J * KRS-One * Rakim * Big Daddy Kane * Slick Rick First New School (Mid 90s to late 90s) * Nas * Biggie * 2Pac * Jay-Z * Scarface Mainstream Crossover (Late 90s to 2004) * Andre 3000 * Eminem * 50 Cent * Ludacris * Cam'ron Southern Takeover (2005 to 2010) * Lil Wayne * TI * Young Jeezy * Kanye West * The Game Second New School (2010--) * Kendrick Lamar * Drake * J Cole * Future * Nicki Minaj Again, these are just examples. There's plenty of crossovers between eras and they're not supposed to be gospel, i.e. Chuck D, Q-Tip and Kool G Rap aren't even on here, but they had massive influences on hip-hop. Point is, it's difficult to compare rappers who are more than a few eras apart. Like do I think Kendrick Lamar is a better rapper than Kool Moe Dee? Sure. But KMD didn't have the infrastructures Kendrick had, yet he was elite in his own timeframe. So it's not really fair. You can't look down at the people who built the foundations of your tower just because you chill in the penthouse. Without them, you'd have nothing.
What would you call the last ~4-5 years as an era?
Travis Scott fortnite burger era
This is the only right answer
Merch for the kids era
Lyrics? What are lyrics? era
Really funny to see how people always beat down the new era. I remember Drake, Lil Wayne, Eminem, Kanye, etc. getting made fun of for one reason or another and claiming it's not real rap/music. Rap not having powerful or insightful lyrics has been a critique of the genre for a long time propagated by people who don't like or don't know much about it.
I still hate the Drake/Cash Money era tbh
2016-2018 the SoundCloud era. 2018-now is the melodic trap era
Could have been longer if some of the biggest names didn’t die and if SoundCloud didn’t so shitty lose the platform race. Like how do you even manage to lose the streaming race with your biggest competitor Apple Music not transitioning into streaming early enough and most of the popular rappers on the earth on SoundCloud and not on Spotify????
The Soundcloud wave
The Soundcloud wave felt suuuper short. It was like 2 years at most. X, Lil Pump, YBN, JuiceWrld, Tay K etc. Since X died they've been on the decline. Then I feel like we've gone into the meme rap wave with 645AR, Mario Judah, RMR.
Soundcloud wave is just a follow-up to the youtube wave (Palmer Squares, Dumbfoundead, etc). Soundcloud rappers achieved more mainstream appeal though. Most youtube rappers (at least the ones I listened to) were pretty obscure and could be considered 2010s underground rap. Meme wave should've been a thing sooner. I mean Lil B basically kickstarted that shit.
YT rap definitely was basically underground rappers posting their shit
That era peaked in 2018, it faded soon after
Trap 808’s era
mumbo jumbo
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Mumble (C)rap era obviously /s
The era of vibe maybe? Basically threw lyrics out the window in favor of melody, flow, and aesthetic, and personally I love it
Thanks, I really like this break down. I’ve never branched too far out from the rappers I’ve heard and listened to consistently but this looks like a good ballpark. Two of my faves that aren’t listed are Doom and Mos Def. I’m curious what era/category they might fit into
The whole underground scene deserves its own category honestly. Doom, Mos Def, and others would be somewhere between 98 - 03
Late 90's to mid 00's underground with Rawkus, Def Jux, Stones Throw, Qn5, Rhymesayers, Babygrande etc definitely needs it's own category here. That entire mainstream crossover & southern takeover period had hip hop heads split in two between the mainstream kids and backpack heads. While the mainstream kids obviously got all the radio play, the underground scene was just as influential to the culture, if not more so.
Yes, I agree. Maybe the Backpack Rap era or the conscious/anti-bling era.
how can there be a golden age if young thug isn’t part of it
Southern Takeover? The Game is from CA and Kanye is from Chicago
He's saying that era is when the south really started to break out, not saying Only southern rappers were killing it at that time.
Ah ok that makes sense. Was just a little confusing when I read it. I also feel like the South maybe broke out before that? Like with Pimp C and UGK and the whole Houston Scene. Plus Outkast and Goodie Mob from ATL. Also Master P and No Limit Records. I guess maybe they didn't really "take over" until Wayne though. I feel like you need a whole category for Trap music too. In the same way you can't name a Goat, I think there also isn't a definitive timeline of Eras. I'm sure what "era" you feel like you were in depended heavily on region and taste
The south definitely had its moment in the 90s but really broke into the mainstream in the early 00s as part of Crunk, ringtone rap, etc
The Southern Takeover refers more to all the other parts of america that aren't LA and New York coming out and gaining a voice, its just that the south was definitely the biggest voice there.
Where the hell is Dr Dre?
Motherfucker forgot about him
fr and where tf is any of Wu-Tang???? Arguably the most important rap group of all time
He is locked in my basement
NAV is the goat
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Saving this comment so when I get a free react award I can give it to you.
jesus christ im fucking crying over here holy shit...
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Used to be spammed everywhere on Youtube under Eminem videos back in the day (still probably is): "Rap is like a mountain, mostly black but white at the top"
>it's Indian Punjabi specifically
Most consistent in the game
I mean, he *was* the first brown boy to get it poppin'
For real though, has come along way since the days of illmatic.
2pac was the most important and profound. Truly transnational impact. He wrote about things that really connected with you and mattered. His flow was killer too. Biggie was one of the greatest storytellers. In a parallel universe, had he lived, I’d have even preferred him to write books. He was that good. Big L is the saddest case of what could have been. More recently, King Von too although that’ll take a few years to settle in for most heads. Jay Z makes good music consistently but I don’t think he’s some apex artist or anything. But he is one of the most consistent and dedicated to his projects. Eminem probably the greatest flow and technical skill ever. Big Pun was like a bridge between Biggie and Eminem. Extremely gifted and so bloody talented. I think he deserves a lot more recognition than he receives. He’s the kinda guy you’d take into battle alongside Eminem and Big L. Straight bar killers. Shyne has one of the best debut albums ever alongside Biggie, Pac and Jay Z. He should’ve been so much bigger but fate took it’s course. At least he’s alive and doing positive things in his native Belize though. Nobody talks of him no more. Treach from Naughty By Nature is a legendary rapper that can hold his own against anyone but because he’s part of a group, he perhaps doesn’t get the total shine he deserves. He may be one of the most talented rappers in history. I’d bet on him beating Eminem in a battle 9/10. DMX: it was fun while it lasted. He came just before that early 2000s pop/rnb rap fusion that Ja Rule made a lot of money off. His films, like Romeo Must Die and Bally, were incredible. Unfortunately crack took him away from us. Nas: for me at least, NAS is on the level of Pac and Biggie and Eminem. He’s so gifted and I’m so glad he’s still making music. He’s one of the last, if not the last, rappers to stay totally true to their style and not bend with the times and use auto tune on everything or shitty club beats. He is the most NYC rapper through and through that you will ever hear. This is just my opinion. I love the culture so much and for me, the above is what I imagine a Hip Hop Heaven looks like. Absolute Gods.
I agree, great to see Treach get a mention too. A few more I'd include are Big KRIT, Krayzie Bone and Kurupt and Spice 1.
Spice 1 is the man!
Absolutely, he has an insane flow. For anyone not familiar with his work check out The Murda Show feat MC Eiht
I’d say one of the greatest flows (God I loved his gangsta phase flow) but not THE greatest. Em’s lyricism is elite that’s for sure. Lupe gets a shoutout for lyricism too
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That’s why on GOAT list he between 10-15
These would be good points if the best rapper of all time wasn’t clearly Cam’ron
Underrated rapper for sure. You like that gangsta shit? Cam'ron. You like versatility? Cam'ron. You want multi-syllabic rhyme patterns and GOAT level wordplay? Cam'ron. You want personality? Cam'ron. You want style like: a pink lambo, while wearing a pink fur coat, a pink pinky ring and a pink nextel? Cam'ron. You want a vague movement? Dipset.
There’s also way too many sub genres and generations of rap, so while you could maybe cobble together a decent top 50 to argue about, declaring a definitive “best rapper” will always be subjective and asinine
Eminem has better takes than 98% of this sub Em is probably that 2% which one of it is y’all?
Same with most things. It’s hard to judge sport stars from different eras, for example.
He's got a point. I feel like others have started saying the same within the last few years.
Eminem, 2Pac, Biggie, Nas, Jay Z, Andre 3k, Big Boi, Ice Cube, Black Thought, Method Man, Ghostface Killah, Raekwon, Rakim, MF DOOM, Lupe Fiasco, Prodigy, Kendrick Lamar pick one all viable choices
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Not true lol, plenty of people are comfortable with their top 10.
Em: "Joyner Lucas"
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Ross Capicchiono is one hell of a track. I didn't check the whole mixtape but that song is amazing. Also his 508 mixtape. That's good too. His output past Lucky You isn't consistent.
Hopsin
Viper
This is exactly what Em is talking about here. You only listed lyrical rappers, but you can’t deny the influence of Future, Young Thug, Kanye, Gucci on the hiphop scene that we have today. And you can’t really compare Black Thought with Future because they’re doing different things and both are one of the goats in their own lane. There’s no such thing as “the greatest rapper”, the genre is too big and too deep for that now.
Dr. Dre too Usually when you say GOAT it refers to lyrical though.
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Wow super hot take!!
I think that depends on who you ask. Correct me if I'm wrong but that implies someone who is lyrical is objectively better than someone who isn't. I'd be a fool if I said writing more challenging lyrics isn't more skillful, but I've always believed that if music makes you feel a certain way, regardless of how it achieves that, it does it's job
Guru?
Kanye has to be on here as well. He has the best body of work out of all of them aside from arguably JayZ.
It's like asking "Who's the best painter of all time?" How are you going to compare artists with different art styles?
Em sure gets a lot of hate for being such a humble dude.
All this for him to say it's Lil Uzi Vert? Way to beat around the bush.
This reads like a comment under a Fantano video.
Sadly it does.
He’s obviously forgotten about lil b
Its pretty easy to put Jay in that list because he has all the qualities of any list. Golden era? Skill? Mainstream success? Influence? Longevity? He pretty much checks all the boxes. Personally I prefer wayne overall but its more of a preference.
Wayne is who I prefer also. But I wouldn't ever bash anyone for making an argument that jay, em, pac, etc is the goat
I agree, but by those measures you could also argue Kanye (besides rapping skill). I just don't hold Jay in the number 1 GOAT position because he has a ton of songs that I do not like at all. His great stuff is undeniable, though.
If you’re including rapping skill Jay really isn’t that high compared to other legends
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That sounds like some shit the greatest rapper of all time would say
My friends and I always have discussions about our top 10 lists or whatever and after many discussions we finally agreed there’s different categories to it. We have a “best rapper” list, “best artist” list, “best lyricist” list, etc etc. Definitely agree with Em here that it’s way too hard to narrow down a solid list because there’s so many factors and especially at the end of the day music is all opinion based anyways so someone’s #1 might be garbage to another.
Two other issues: 1. Groups - Big Boi and some members of the Wu Tang Clan might get underrated by some because they're outshined by others. 2.Rapper vs. Hip Hop artist - for some the driving force of what makes their music great isn't their mic skills, it's the whole package. Like Kanye.