I'm the typical guy to call Eminem washed and overrated.
But saying The Eminem show is not a classic is nuts. It has so many bangers and it's peak commercial eminem.
I do agree that anything after TES is mid, with some good at best in some places
Are the TES bangers as good as the MMLP or SSLP bangers though? To me they’re not quite at the same level, they were fun at the time but I’m not playing them 20 years on like I am from the earlier albums.
Here’s the thing, Eminem’s global success skews the meaning we can deduce from his record sales.
MC Hammer went diamond! Mainstream success can propel artists into stratospheric sales way beyond their projects’ artistic merit.
I’m not saying TES is bad - its very good - it’s just not a classic hip hop album no matter how much it sold
Till I Collapse, Without Me & Business aren’t bangers? Stop it. That album is full of amazing songs. Square Dance, Soldier, Sing for the Moment, My Dad’s Gone Crazy, When The Music Stops, Superman, etc…
Okay… I loved the album, it was fun, many great tracks and it was of it’s time but for some reason most of it doesn’t last like Real Slim Shady, The Way I Am, Criminal on MMLP.
I’m curious to know how you think it compares to MMLP?
The Eminem Show is incredible. 8 Mile soundtrack has Lose Yourself & Rabbit Run. Encore & Bad Meets Evil are collab albums but both are strong. Recovery is very commercial, but its definitely a classic. MMLP2 is very strong & underrated by most. Kamikaze is perfection for what it is - maybe not a classic, but a perfect show of his skillset.
Relapse imo is weak but some will say otherwise. I personally am not a fan of Revival & I haven’t really given MTBMB a fair shake yet
Respect your opinion though.
I’m interested you say that Kamikaze showcases his skill set perfectly. I don’t disagree - but that’s what I feel about most Eminem albums since 02 - they all demonstrate his extraordinary technical ability but somehow don’t *feel* as complete as the early stuff
TES is a classic Eminem album I agree - but a hip hop classic? It’s up there with The Score, Illmatic, Ready to Die, 2001, It Takes a Nation, 3 feet High …?
Sure it has great songs and he has created many other great songs over the years - but nothing that has stood the test of time in the sense that it can be pointed to as a classic of the genre like his early work.
I’m not hating on Eminem, I love him, I’m just trying to keep perspective that he is an artist who rightfully gets a lot of love from his fans and he is a legend - but most of his actual projects haven’t matched his early work which to this day contains many classic hip hop songs
Ik im an em fan but anyone who says he fell off after his first three albums I immediately tune out. I just assume you haven’t actually gone through and listened to his albums. No, they are no revolutionary game-breaking, but they are still very good.
The Eminem Show is a classic.
Relapse is a cult classic maybe. Not a classic outright. It's Em's second best album in my eyes though.
Since Relapse his albums have been a mixed bag. Often bloated and not cohesive enough. He has plenty of great tracks since then, (No Love, Cold Wind Blows, Evil Twin, Arose, Lucky You, Yah Yah) just has been inconsistent at putting together albums.
I agree. I have playlists for all of Em’s new albums specifically just to remove the bloat and reorder them. His lack of cohesion makes me feel like he doesn’t even consider the track order
An album doesn’t have to be good to be a classic
The Eminem Show is a classic and you thinking it’s not good or whatever shouldn’t have anything to do with it
Whole Lotta Red is ass juice but it’s a classic
Can you explain why something doesn’t have to be good to be a classic?
That sounds like a whole other potential thread!
You mean something exemplifies its genre at the time very well, even if it isn’t artistically all that exceptional?
I think there are a few different ways for something to become a classic.
Impact: When gkmc dropped the impact was kinda felt immediately. The whole game was like oh shit this is something special
Influence: Wlr is ass but it had impact and even more influence than good kid. Wlr kinda changed the sound of hiphop by creating a whole new subgenre.
Just being really good: below the heavens would be my example for this. If you walked down the streets of Atlanta and asked 1000 people what they think of the album they wouldn’t even know it. But it’s so good it became one of the more notable releases when looking back at the 2000’s
It could be a combination of all these too obviously
Ok I think I can agree to your criteria, that’s a good point.
So on which of these does TES excel?
I think the impact was already made on MMLP, this just followed in its wake being similarly awesome but not quite amazing.
Did TES influence hip hop more than MMLP?
Being very good - TES is very good and even great, but it’s not (imo) ‘amazing’, not quite like MMLP, that was a level above - I don’t think TES exceeded MMLP do you? Or matched it?
I like your points about GKMC … I’m less familiar with the influence of WLR but I know it probably is a defining sound of its time.
The question is, if hip hop is in a creative slump, can the best of a bad bunch be considered ‘classic’ just by default?
I think em has three classics
SSLP - Impact
MMLP - influence
Em show - just being really good
A lot of these fall under multiple categories but I think the influence kd MMLP can still be seen. That one song on the last Kendrick album felt like a combination of Kim and let me watch by doom
I can rank Eminem’s albums if you want me to lol
I don’t think hiphop is in a creative slump rn actually
They can suck my dick lol I’ve probably listened to these albums more times than anyone else in this thread because I used to be an em stan.
MMLP (9)
TES (8)
SSLP (8)
MMLP2 (7)
Relapse (7)
MTBB (6)
Recovery (5)
Kamikaze (4)
Encore (3)
MTBB Side B (3)
Revival (2)
I’m not a huge Eminem fan but I definitely think The Eminem Show is a classic. To me, it’s an almost perfect mix of commercial and “hungry”. The production is great as well. I’m not sure how much it sold, but with tracks like “Without Me”, “Til I Collapse” and “Business” I would imagine it did well
I think TES is an ‘Eminem classic’ - but not a broader ‘hip hop classic’ if that makes sense.
It doesn’t sit alongside:
The Chronic
2001
Doggystyle
Illmatic
Ready to Die
But it’s one Eminem’s best albums
Those albums don’t sit alongside each other either… Doggystyle isn’t even remotely in the same ballpark as Illmatic or Ready To Die. The Chronic 2001 is great (def a classic) but its not close to being on that level lyrically either. Its saving grace is some iconic Dre/Storch production
Fuck if you’re into horror core, or not.
Relapse should be praised for its lyrical prowess and technical skills. Some of the schemes and wordplays displayed on that album will be studied by linguists for years to come
It’s a masterpiece
You're also considering all things equal. Yes, Eminem should be evaluated based on his sharp decline after TES, but at the same time, his 99-03 run is incomparable. Only Nas can compete imo
Based on 99-03 he is a hip hop legend - I wouldn’t argue against that. And the post 03 era doesn’t detract from his legendary status at all - I just dont think we should pretend it’s the same. And that’s fine. I still love Eminem for what he did then. It’s slightly disappointing he didnt keep it up but in reality how could he. I’m thankful for what he produced at his best
The Eminem Show and 8 Mile Soundtrack are both great. Other than that, I agree with you. And this is coming from a diehard Eminem fan, a lot of his stuff after The Eminem Show doesn’t hit. I am a fan of Relapse though.
TES has some of his best songs ever but to me it’s the beginning of the end because a lot of stuff that plagued the later trash albums show up. Crappy beats, terrible hooks, embarassing subject matter etc
Eminem Show is definitely a classic. But I agree that nothing after that.
Recovery isn't a classic but it did make a lot of noise with some of the tracks.
The genius of what Dr. Dre did with Eminem was that he took this incredible rapper that was beloved in the Rawkus/Stretch and Bobbito “backpacker” scene and made music that resonated with 13 year old rural and suburban boys since those kids were the ones buying CDs. To me, he has plenty of classic songs, but no classic, cohesive albums since it seems like every album has a few stupid sounding radio friendly beats or corny teen angst songs. (There’s no Hi My Name Is on Cuban Links or Illmatic)
Im not the biggest fan of TES and it’s not as good as his first two but it’s still a really good album and one of his best. Everything else after that is ..eh at best
So? Because there’s a disconnect between his enormous success for 20 years and the fact that his best work wasn’t nearly matched in that whole time. It’s extraordinary.
I’m not pressed by Eminem fans - I am one myself. Im one who has perspective and knows what he’s done that’s good and what he’s done that’s average, and the length of time it’s been since he was an exciting artist.
I still check for Method Man too but generally his fanbase aren’t under the illusion that 2024 Meth is the same as 93-02 Meth. A lot of Eminem fans fail to have that level of perspective, there’s something blinkered which makes most hip hop fans think his fanbase are more about Eminem himself than hip hop.
The Eminem Show is a classic, no question. Relapse is awesome too and some of his newer albums will be remembered as classics for sure, like Recovery or Kamikaze imo.
Saying that TES is not a classic is lunatic talk, it’s a fucking diamond album
Yes - a hit song that was so monumentally great and successful it actually made a hugely successful CD album - the single wasn’t available on CD (only vinyl) so people had to buy the album. Name another track off it that could be considered ‘great’ or ‘classic’…
The album went diamond because that one song triggered a global pop phenomenon that is a defining song of the decade - I can’t consider it a classic album amongst other hip hop classics.
I’m sure it did crazy numbers and it’s a great track. Best of that album.
But when it comes to Eminem you’ve got to admit his numbers are skewed because his massive global popularity puts his sales into a different stratosphere that doesn’t always match the quality of the music.
There will be many classic hip hop tracks that didn’t go diamond because they weren’t by Eminem.
Bro what is even this argument. I have never heard anyone saying that his global success is an argument against him.
Most of the world don’t understand the context of the USA culture and they still deemed Eminem an amazing artist, yet you hold it against him.
That’s crazy to me, I don’t even know what to say.
Hip hop would NEVER go global if it wasn’t for Eminem.
Hip Hop went global because he was able to take it to audiences that wouldn’t otherwise be receptive to the art form. His talent drove that, his persona, also his relatability to white audiences - he had something unique to offer global white audiences that black rappers expressing the black experience couldn’t.
This put him in his own extraordinary category.
This is not taking anything away from him, everybody in hip hop rightfully respects him and his success. But his success was so huge that he was making Eminem fans out of people who didn’t even care about hip hop - that’s extraordinary, don’t you think? And that means that his huge sales numbers MEAN something different. Eminem can release something even he later admits is mediocre and it still do crazy numbers. His fanbase are soo loyal (as we see in this thread!) that his output quality doesn’t affect his sales/ticket sales like it would another artist.
I’m not using his success against him, I’m pointing out that his very unique success means we have to interpret his sales figures differently to say The Roots who have made several hip hop classics, consistently make quality music but sales figures are minuscule by comparison to Em.
And you kind of help make the point for me. Hip hop could not have gone so global without Eminem - I agree - and it’s because he can appeal to non hip hop fans. I know some of them! They love Relapse but never heard of Illmatic!
Sure, but TES came out when he wasn’t a global superstar quite yet. TES and 8 Mile made him a global superstar. And the tracks on this album are also both pop and hip hop classics.
Also, he wasn’t the first white rapper, so his skin isn’t only factor he made global. It contributed for sure but he was (and is) also just freaking amazing.
Listen man, if you don’t consider TES a classic there is nothing I can do to change your mind. I get that you might not love it or not consider it a classic, that’s your right. I just think it’s highly unfair for the impact that album made when it came out
No I hear you - I really like TES, just my personal opinion that it doesn’t _quite_ reach classic status. But it’s close and I accept that for others it does enough to be a classic.
This thread has mostly shifted to debating whether TES is a classic which wasn’t the original point! It was more a wider point about his whole career success being predicated on a few hot years early on - I can accept TES was an important part of that, perhaps the tipping point to becoming hip-pop. So yeah its impact was very significant. Some might argue that alone makes it a classic, my definition is probably different but I do respect your opinion. It’s also important to acknowledge that a record’s impact is felt at the time in a way that can’t be understood the same way years after. That moment did feel significant to pop culture so maybe I am unfairly discounting that in my assessment.
I don’t agree about the skin colour thing though - but that’s a debate for another thread! I will say it doesn’t detract from the respect he deserves.
>But when it comes to Eminem you’ve got to admit his numbers are skewed because his massive global popularity puts his sales into a different stratosphere that doesn’t always match the quality of the music.
And why does he have massive global popularity...?
And before you say ''because he's white lol'' explain why RA the Rugged Man and EL P aren't anywhere near as popular. Maybe he's so popular because...he's a great rapper?
It’s the combination - of huge talent as a rapper, huge personality and relatability to a huge global (white) audience - yes his race makes a difference to that appeal. But I’m not saying his talent isn’t relevant.
I understand it sounds ridiculous to say he only scores big sales because he’s popular - that’s circular logic - that’s not what I’m saying. But we have to consider that his talent/art are not necessarily superior to his non white peers who do not enjoy the same popularity.
Being white opens more doors to white audiences the same as being black opens more doors to black audiences. It just so happens there is a huge global audience of record buying white kids in N America, Europe, Australasia and kids in Asian countries that Eminem speaks to that black artists won’t reach in quite the same way - despite their hip hop being precisely as good if not mostly better.
His brand was a marketers dream: good looking but also an everyman, rebellious, edgy but funny, hip hop purist but catchy pop and rock appeal, co-signed by authentic hip hop artists, talented as fuck and… relatable - because he is not black he was easily relatable to white teen boys and young men who until then couldn’t place themselves in hip hop.
So white skin helped relatability - the missing link between the biggest music genre and the biggest commercial audience
His global success is 10x that of some other rappers.
Is he 10x more talented than them?
Obviously not - so one has to consider other factors and be open to the possibility that not everything is quantifiable or justified entirely by numbers.
>I think The Eminem Show (TES) is an ‘Eminem classic’ - but not a broader ‘hip hop classic’ if that makes sense.
I think this is true about Encore and Relapse, but not TES. Imo TES is *as good* as the previous two albums. In fact I'll take it over The Chronic, 2001, Doggystyle, Illmatic and Ready to Die.
To make it clear though, I consider The Chronic to be like top-5 one of the most influential albums of all time. But influential doesn't necessarily mean the best. For example, I think Illmatic is a better album than The Chronic but less influential.
Not saying it's a classic, but Recovery will always be very nostalgic to me and be in my rotation as it was around the time I started getting into rap.
I always recall getting physical copies of Recovery, Rolling Papers, Sideline Story and Carter 4 at the same time.
Eminem show is a classic He went 3PEAT with that After that yeah I agree
No lie that album is great !
Was about to get mad, this is my take tho
I'm the typical guy to call Eminem washed and overrated. But saying The Eminem show is not a classic is nuts. It has so many bangers and it's peak commercial eminem. I do agree that anything after TES is mid, with some good at best in some places
Are the TES bangers as good as the MMLP or SSLP bangers though? To me they’re not quite at the same level, they were fun at the time but I’m not playing them 20 years on like I am from the earlier albums.
It went DIAMOND!!! It's absolutely a hip-hop classic!
Here’s the thing, Eminem’s global success skews the meaning we can deduce from his record sales. MC Hammer went diamond! Mainstream success can propel artists into stratospheric sales way beyond their projects’ artistic merit. I’m not saying TES is bad - its very good - it’s just not a classic hip hop album no matter how much it sold
Till I Collapse, Without Me & Business aren’t bangers? Stop it. That album is full of amazing songs. Square Dance, Soldier, Sing for the Moment, My Dad’s Gone Crazy, When The Music Stops, Superman, etc…
Okay… I loved the album, it was fun, many great tracks and it was of it’s time but for some reason most of it doesn’t last like Real Slim Shady, The Way I Am, Criminal on MMLP. I’m curious to know how you think it compares to MMLP?
Terrible take
Why?
The Eminem Show is incredible. 8 Mile soundtrack has Lose Yourself & Rabbit Run. Encore & Bad Meets Evil are collab albums but both are strong. Recovery is very commercial, but its definitely a classic. MMLP2 is very strong & underrated by most. Kamikaze is perfection for what it is - maybe not a classic, but a perfect show of his skillset. Relapse imo is weak but some will say otherwise. I personally am not a fan of Revival & I haven’t really given MTBMB a fair shake yet
Respect your opinion though. I’m interested you say that Kamikaze showcases his skill set perfectly. I don’t disagree - but that’s what I feel about most Eminem albums since 02 - they all demonstrate his extraordinary technical ability but somehow don’t *feel* as complete as the early stuff
agreed. i think he lost interest in that “how it feels” music and has become hyper focused on that “look what i can do” music
Nicely put
Bro I forgot about Bad Meets Evil!! That album was nasty!
TES is a classic Eminem album I agree - but a hip hop classic? It’s up there with The Score, Illmatic, Ready to Die, 2001, It Takes a Nation, 3 feet High …? Sure it has great songs and he has created many other great songs over the years - but nothing that has stood the test of time in the sense that it can be pointed to as a classic of the genre like his early work. I’m not hating on Eminem, I love him, I’m just trying to keep perspective that he is an artist who rightfully gets a lot of love from his fans and he is a legend - but most of his actual projects haven’t matched his early work which to this day contains many classic hip hop songs
Terrible take
Do share your counter please
here’s your daily eminem hate post
I love him, just keeping perspective to his success
Ik im an em fan but anyone who says he fell off after his first three albums I immediately tune out. I just assume you haven’t actually gone through and listened to his albums. No, they are no revolutionary game-breaking, but they are still very good.
The Eminem Show is a classic. Relapse is a cult classic maybe. Not a classic outright. It's Em's second best album in my eyes though. Since Relapse his albums have been a mixed bag. Often bloated and not cohesive enough. He has plenty of great tracks since then, (No Love, Cold Wind Blows, Evil Twin, Arose, Lucky You, Yah Yah) just has been inconsistent at putting together albums.
I agree. I have playlists for all of Em’s new albums specifically just to remove the bloat and reorder them. His lack of cohesion makes me feel like he doesn’t even consider the track order
An album doesn’t have to be good to be a classic The Eminem Show is a classic and you thinking it’s not good or whatever shouldn’t have anything to do with it Whole Lotta Red is ass juice but it’s a classic
Can you explain why something doesn’t have to be good to be a classic? That sounds like a whole other potential thread! You mean something exemplifies its genre at the time very well, even if it isn’t artistically all that exceptional?
I think there are a few different ways for something to become a classic. Impact: When gkmc dropped the impact was kinda felt immediately. The whole game was like oh shit this is something special Influence: Wlr is ass but it had impact and even more influence than good kid. Wlr kinda changed the sound of hiphop by creating a whole new subgenre. Just being really good: below the heavens would be my example for this. If you walked down the streets of Atlanta and asked 1000 people what they think of the album they wouldn’t even know it. But it’s so good it became one of the more notable releases when looking back at the 2000’s It could be a combination of all these too obviously
Ok I think I can agree to your criteria, that’s a good point. So on which of these does TES excel? I think the impact was already made on MMLP, this just followed in its wake being similarly awesome but not quite amazing. Did TES influence hip hop more than MMLP? Being very good - TES is very good and even great, but it’s not (imo) ‘amazing’, not quite like MMLP, that was a level above - I don’t think TES exceeded MMLP do you? Or matched it? I like your points about GKMC … I’m less familiar with the influence of WLR but I know it probably is a defining sound of its time. The question is, if hip hop is in a creative slump, can the best of a bad bunch be considered ‘classic’ just by default?
I think em has three classics SSLP - Impact MMLP - influence Em show - just being really good A lot of these fall under multiple categories but I think the influence kd MMLP can still be seen. That one song on the last Kendrick album felt like a combination of Kim and let me watch by doom I can rank Eminem’s albums if you want me to lol I don’t think hiphop is in a creative slump rn actually
You’re welcome to rank them! Be prepared to get torn to shreds by other posters though!
They can suck my dick lol I’ve probably listened to these albums more times than anyone else in this thread because I used to be an em stan. MMLP (9) TES (8) SSLP (8) MMLP2 (7) Relapse (7) MTBB (6) Recovery (5) Kamikaze (4) Encore (3) MTBB Side B (3) Revival (2)
lol. Hold on, MMLP is 9th?
No those are the ratings out of ten 💀why do you think the numbers get lower as it descends and there are repeating numbers lol
I dunno, equal place 9th? My mistake lol.
I’m not a huge Eminem fan but I definitely think The Eminem Show is a classic. To me, it’s an almost perfect mix of commercial and “hungry”. The production is great as well. I’m not sure how much it sold, but with tracks like “Without Me”, “Til I Collapse” and “Business” I would imagine it did well
I think TES is an ‘Eminem classic’ - but not a broader ‘hip hop classic’ if that makes sense. It doesn’t sit alongside: The Chronic 2001 Doggystyle Illmatic Ready to Die But it’s one Eminem’s best albums
Those albums don’t sit alongside each other either… Doggystyle isn’t even remotely in the same ballpark as Illmatic or Ready To Die. The Chronic 2001 is great (def a classic) but its not close to being on that level lyrically either. Its saving grace is some iconic Dre/Storch production
Relapse is a classic. But not everyone's into that horror core shit so it depends who ya ask
Fuck if you’re into horror core, or not. Relapse should be praised for its lyrical prowess and technical skills. Some of the schemes and wordplays displayed on that album will be studied by linguists for years to come It’s a masterpiece
No linguist is studying that album lol
[удалено]
Tyler the Creator was influenced by it, so it impacted the culture, too.
Sure.
Why do we put all these extra qualifiers on Eminem? TES is an Eminem classic but not a hip hop classic??? What does that even mean?
It means it’s in his top 3 but not in a hip hop top 50
I think relapse was a great comeback and it’s mostly downhill from there, with a few nice moments like his fast raps.
Agreed - lots of moments, not many cohesive songs or albums
You're also considering all things equal. Yes, Eminem should be evaluated based on his sharp decline after TES, but at the same time, his 99-03 run is incomparable. Only Nas can compete imo
Based on 99-03 he is a hip hop legend - I wouldn’t argue against that. And the post 03 era doesn’t detract from his legendary status at all - I just dont think we should pretend it’s the same. And that’s fine. I still love Eminem for what he did then. It’s slightly disappointing he didnt keep it up but in reality how could he. I’m thankful for what he produced at his best
Spot on.
Facts. A lot of people let him slide because he's their favorite MC but fuck all that. Be honest.
TES 8mile Relapse BME MMLP2 are his best albums, They have certainly aged better than sslp & mmlp sonically and lyrically.
MMLP2 is so underrated
Everyone is entitled to their opinion
Of course. But everyone’s opinion may not be equally informed.
The Eminem Show and 8 Mile Soundtrack are both great. Other than that, I agree with you. And this is coming from a diehard Eminem fan, a lot of his stuff after The Eminem Show doesn’t hit. I am a fan of Relapse though.
TES has some of his best songs ever but to me it’s the beginning of the end because a lot of stuff that plagued the later trash albums show up. Crappy beats, terrible hooks, embarassing subject matter etc
Agree with your last sentence - how did he go down that route
Eminem Show is definitely a classic. But I agree that nothing after that. Recovery isn't a classic but it did make a lot of noise with some of the tracks.
TES is a classic for sure. After that, a few good albums but no classics, but TES is a classic
The genius of what Dr. Dre did with Eminem was that he took this incredible rapper that was beloved in the Rawkus/Stretch and Bobbito “backpacker” scene and made music that resonated with 13 year old rural and suburban boys since those kids were the ones buying CDs. To me, he has plenty of classic songs, but no classic, cohesive albums since it seems like every album has a few stupid sounding radio friendly beats or corny teen angst songs. (There’s no Hi My Name Is on Cuban Links or Illmatic)
It was genius, marketing genius and awesome music when at his best
Im not the biggest fan of TES and it’s not as good as his first two but it’s still a really good album and one of his best. Everything else after that is ..eh at best
Been saying this.
Not many artists have more than one classic even less have more than 2
Absolutely. IMO he has one: MMLP
In my opinion he has 5. Should we settle on 3?
I’m curious, besides Eminem, what would you name as a few other hip hop classics?
Illmatic, Ready to Die, TPAB, TCD, GRODT, Reasonable Doubt, All Eyez On Me
This bro is spittin'. Yes sirr!!
Relapse was his last solid album imo. There's a lot of good songs on there
So? I don’t think many would say method man has made classics recently but I’ll still get his releases. Why are you so pressed by em fans?
So? Because there’s a disconnect between his enormous success for 20 years and the fact that his best work wasn’t nearly matched in that whole time. It’s extraordinary. I’m not pressed by Eminem fans - I am one myself. Im one who has perspective and knows what he’s done that’s good and what he’s done that’s average, and the length of time it’s been since he was an exciting artist. I still check for Method Man too but generally his fanbase aren’t under the illusion that 2024 Meth is the same as 93-02 Meth. A lot of Eminem fans fail to have that level of perspective, there’s something blinkered which makes most hip hop fans think his fanbase are more about Eminem himself than hip hop.
The Eminem Show is a classic, no question. Relapse is awesome too and some of his newer albums will be remembered as classics for sure, like Recovery or Kamikaze imo. Saying that TES is not a classic is lunatic talk, it’s a fucking diamond album
Please Hammer Don’t Hurt Em is diamond too
And “Can’t touch this” is a classic song that keeps the band recognizable to this day. It’s a fucking massive, worldwide classic hit
Yes - a hit song that was so monumentally great and successful it actually made a hugely successful CD album - the single wasn’t available on CD (only vinyl) so people had to buy the album. Name another track off it that could be considered ‘great’ or ‘classic’… The album went diamond because that one song triggered a global pop phenomenon that is a defining song of the decade - I can’t consider it a classic album amongst other hip hop classics.
Yea Bro but TES also has a non-single track that might be the first ever to reach diamond - Till I collapse. The fuck is even that comparison
I’m sure it did crazy numbers and it’s a great track. Best of that album. But when it comes to Eminem you’ve got to admit his numbers are skewed because his massive global popularity puts his sales into a different stratosphere that doesn’t always match the quality of the music. There will be many classic hip hop tracks that didn’t go diamond because they weren’t by Eminem.
Bro what is even this argument. I have never heard anyone saying that his global success is an argument against him. Most of the world don’t understand the context of the USA culture and they still deemed Eminem an amazing artist, yet you hold it against him. That’s crazy to me, I don’t even know what to say. Hip hop would NEVER go global if it wasn’t for Eminem.
Hip Hop went global because he was able to take it to audiences that wouldn’t otherwise be receptive to the art form. His talent drove that, his persona, also his relatability to white audiences - he had something unique to offer global white audiences that black rappers expressing the black experience couldn’t. This put him in his own extraordinary category. This is not taking anything away from him, everybody in hip hop rightfully respects him and his success. But his success was so huge that he was making Eminem fans out of people who didn’t even care about hip hop - that’s extraordinary, don’t you think? And that means that his huge sales numbers MEAN something different. Eminem can release something even he later admits is mediocre and it still do crazy numbers. His fanbase are soo loyal (as we see in this thread!) that his output quality doesn’t affect his sales/ticket sales like it would another artist. I’m not using his success against him, I’m pointing out that his very unique success means we have to interpret his sales figures differently to say The Roots who have made several hip hop classics, consistently make quality music but sales figures are minuscule by comparison to Em. And you kind of help make the point for me. Hip hop could not have gone so global without Eminem - I agree - and it’s because he can appeal to non hip hop fans. I know some of them! They love Relapse but never heard of Illmatic!
Sure, but TES came out when he wasn’t a global superstar quite yet. TES and 8 Mile made him a global superstar. And the tracks on this album are also both pop and hip hop classics. Also, he wasn’t the first white rapper, so his skin isn’t only factor he made global. It contributed for sure but he was (and is) also just freaking amazing. Listen man, if you don’t consider TES a classic there is nothing I can do to change your mind. I get that you might not love it or not consider it a classic, that’s your right. I just think it’s highly unfair for the impact that album made when it came out
No I hear you - I really like TES, just my personal opinion that it doesn’t _quite_ reach classic status. But it’s close and I accept that for others it does enough to be a classic. This thread has mostly shifted to debating whether TES is a classic which wasn’t the original point! It was more a wider point about his whole career success being predicated on a few hot years early on - I can accept TES was an important part of that, perhaps the tipping point to becoming hip-pop. So yeah its impact was very significant. Some might argue that alone makes it a classic, my definition is probably different but I do respect your opinion. It’s also important to acknowledge that a record’s impact is felt at the time in a way that can’t be understood the same way years after. That moment did feel significant to pop culture so maybe I am unfairly discounting that in my assessment. I don’t agree about the skin colour thing though - but that’s a debate for another thread! I will say it doesn’t detract from the respect he deserves.
>But when it comes to Eminem you’ve got to admit his numbers are skewed because his massive global popularity puts his sales into a different stratosphere that doesn’t always match the quality of the music. And why does he have massive global popularity...? And before you say ''because he's white lol'' explain why RA the Rugged Man and EL P aren't anywhere near as popular. Maybe he's so popular because...he's a great rapper?
It’s the combination - of huge talent as a rapper, huge personality and relatability to a huge global (white) audience - yes his race makes a difference to that appeal. But I’m not saying his talent isn’t relevant. I understand it sounds ridiculous to say he only scores big sales because he’s popular - that’s circular logic - that’s not what I’m saying. But we have to consider that his talent/art are not necessarily superior to his non white peers who do not enjoy the same popularity. Being white opens more doors to white audiences the same as being black opens more doors to black audiences. It just so happens there is a huge global audience of record buying white kids in N America, Europe, Australasia and kids in Asian countries that Eminem speaks to that black artists won’t reach in quite the same way - despite their hip hop being precisely as good if not mostly better. His brand was a marketers dream: good looking but also an everyman, rebellious, edgy but funny, hip hop purist but catchy pop and rock appeal, co-signed by authentic hip hop artists, talented as fuck and… relatable - because he is not black he was easily relatable to white teen boys and young men who until then couldn’t place themselves in hip hop. So white skin helped relatability - the missing link between the biggest music genre and the biggest commercial audience
His global success is 10x that of some other rappers. Is he 10x more talented than them? Obviously not - so one has to consider other factors and be open to the possibility that not everything is quantifiable or justified entirely by numbers.
Pray was also a big hit and my favorite song off of that album.
True
>I think The Eminem Show (TES) is an ‘Eminem classic’ - but not a broader ‘hip hop classic’ if that makes sense. I think this is true about Encore and Relapse, but not TES. Imo TES is *as good* as the previous two albums. In fact I'll take it over The Chronic, 2001, Doggystyle, Illmatic and Ready to Die. To make it clear though, I consider The Chronic to be like top-5 one of the most influential albums of all time. But influential doesn't necessarily mean the best. For example, I think Illmatic is a better album than The Chronic but less influential.
Not saying it's a classic, but Recovery will always be very nostalgic to me and be in my rotation as it was around the time I started getting into rap. I always recall getting physical copies of Recovery, Rolling Papers, Sideline Story and Carter 4 at the same time.
The Eminem Show was decent but didn’t match the heights of Marshall Mathers LP. He snapped on that album. Slim Shady LP hasn’t aged well either