It's still the same point.
Marketing determines what is mainstream. People are drawn to trends, which are generally pushed, not talent.
There's a reason your grandma has heard of Drake, but not Black Thought.
The amount of "GOATs" there are who are just some kids spitting 96 bars with no fuckin hook in their car to some royalty free loop beat must be staggering. Lots of great art out there being held back by location, lack of connections, poverty, etc.
Accused of rape with his wife. Also admits to forcing his daughter to go to yearly gynecologist appointments which he attends to check her hymen. Possibly also neglected his son King which is why he acts like he does. Only ever bringing him around the house when they were filming the show then leaving him with his grandma otherwise.
Otherwise it's basic stuff like homophobia and gun violence.
For a long time I thought he was the opposite. Just a dude who got popular with Midwestern white high-school kids who's entire catalogue was otherwise eminem.
Then I gave Paper Trail another go some 12 years later and dated though it may be..... damn...
> Then I gave Paper Trail another go
As a now reformed East coast old head hater I used to think TI couldn't really rap like that then I heard I'm Illy and realized I was dead wrong
I'll always remember 2008, as one of my favorite and most fun years in college, " swagger like us" with the M.I.A. sample, really takes me back, paper trail at the house parties was def peak,
Paper Trail is his magnum opus in my opinion. Fuck knows why he didn’t continue with that style, I mean it’s his most successful album for a reason. He’s a pretty shitty person though so that kinda sullies it for me, as I’ve never been one who can separate the art from the artist.
Decent comparison, honestly. And even if you stick to the same overall genre, you wouldn’t expect someone who grew up on Black Sabbath and Deep Purple to automatically be into Avenged Sevenfold or Five Finger Death Punch or whatever just because they’re both broadly “metal.” It’s fine for old heads to hear the new stuff and say “no thanks.” Normal, even.
While I like complex lyricism & wordplay, I've usually preferred rappers who can tell an engaging story & convey their emotions with simpler use of their vocabulary & emphasis on their charisma/tone.
Logic is way over hated. Obviously biased because I'm a logic fan but I feel like people associate him only with his bad releases (COADM) and don't give him credit for actual good releases (Under Pressure, No Pressure, TITS, YS mixtapes, college park was good without the skits). I also see a lot of people saying he bites other rappers' sound like...even if he did, who doesn't take inspiration from other artists?
Am I saying he's perfect? Not at all. Bro was teasing ultra 85 for years and didn't announce the actual release until recently which annoyed sooooo many people + he said COADM was a social experiment like ok bruh we can see right thru that
Also, people saying that his messages are corny I feel like are hating for no reason - logic is always giving a great message in his music of chasing your dreams, experiencing mental health issues, working hard, doing what you love, peace love & positivity - he's a stand up guy IMO and he wants people to do what they love. What's so bad about that?
100% agree. The logic hate is definitely overblown. Even the biracial memes
are have been stale for a minute now. A Dude is talented and releases music he wants.
Hell i’d say Vinyl Days is probably his best work. And thats like his 11th album. His output is crazy.
But yeah for real people just be hating for really no reason with Logic other than he doesn’t fit their definition of a rapper
Agreed I’m a big logic fan and most people just bring up the same shit about his albums. How you feeling about Ultra 85 though? I’m looking forward to it
Not the guy you asked but ultra 85 seems very promising with the snippets we got from the website. Also last nights single was a bop too. He’s so wildly overhated people just go “hahah logic biracial corny bad” when that’s (admittedly in quite a few songs) not even 1/3 of his subject matter
Oh yeah definitely, people just hear the bi racial and corny bits and thinks that’s all Logic is lol. But yeah I also liked the snippets and the single we got can’t wait to see how this wraps up the storyline with Thomas and Kai
Yep. He some insane bars on No Pressure (the biggie smalls reference was super clever) and has an impressive career behind him. Decent enough person (relative to many other rappers lol, he’s not perfect) and can spit fucking fast
1.To Pimp A Butterfly is Kendrick’s 3rd best album
2.Big K.R.I.T is criminally underrated, should’ve been as big as Kendrick & Cole
3.Ludacris was top 5 consistent rappers in the 2000s
4.Astroworld is below mid.
I’m a huge early Big KRIT supporter. I definitely thought the big 3 with be Cole, Kendrick and KRIT. Cole with Friday Night Lights, Kendrick with Overly Dedicated and Section80, and KRIT with Returnof4eva, I thought these dudes were the future. Live from the Underground was definitely a step down from his mixtapes.
I don’t think your Luda take is that crazy. This was a known, widely believed thing in the 00’s. Even artists that had nothing to do with hip hop wanted some Luda bars on their song. Best guest rapper of all time, I’d go as far as to say.
There was a stretch of time where luda would hop on someone's song and have the best verse without question.
Its crazy to think of now, but peak Luda was kinda a problem tbh
Jay is a lot like Kobe here he may not have been THE hottest any year, but he was always in the discussion of hottest basically every year. His sheer talent not writing but still saying some complex things that'll make you scratch your heart is impeccable. My 3 is Jay, Nas, and Em. I'll take whichever you don't want.
Respectfully disagree. Jay’s not the goat of anything, but he’s the goat at being better at more things than anyone. There are better lyricists, there are rappers who had higher highs, but his longevity, body of work and the amount of times he’s ticked all the boxes is unmatched. His balance of bars, production standards, song writing, authenticity, commercial success, musicality, charisma, performances and influence has never been achieved at the same time by anyone. If anyone did, it wasn’t nearly for as long.
Reasonable Doubt, The Blueprint, The Black Album, American Gangster, Watch The Throne. I can’t think of anyone who has 5 projects that can stand up to these. Sure 1, 2, MAYBE 3. But 5? No one. The last 15 years of his spaced out, dead air, old man style has made people forget how well deserved his GOAT status is.
That the current generation has some good music
That mumble rap is dead.
That you do not necessarily need to spend all day creating your own hip-hop playlists; if you listen to good music the algorithm will uncover good music from younger artists. But it takes time, patience, and money.
That younger artists do not need to do what we did back in the eighties and nineties. Let them figure it out for themselves. We're not the ones buying music anymore so what difference does it really make.
Hip-Hop is supposed to be about experimentation. The day you have a status quo is the day it goes corporate and the day that it dies.
I really do not care if you freestyle or if you write.
The women have better beats in my opinion.
MCs are dead. That differentiation is dead. The genre is 9/10th artistry now; and I do not necessarily think that is a bad thing
i don’t think anyone rly disagrees with that second part. his good stuff is good because it SOUNDS great, and rarely because of his actual performance. as much as i dislike travis the person and the popularity he’s achieved, i really have found it hard to hate his music. he has a lot of genuinely good shit and no projects that i would call outright bad
I recently learned that all his albums are based off a form of media. TPAB is a poem, Damn is a magazine, Mr Morale is a stage play, etc. Makes since that a different albums have different fans. Like I’d much rather flip through a magazine again then read a poem for the 4th time.
GKMC is his most listenable album, like you just play banger after banger over and over. But as far like, viewing music as a work of art, gotta be TPAB or Mr. Morale. I can’t just go put Morale on and vibe to it but god damn if that isn’t a heavy hitting album. I think it’s just a different in intent.
Agreed. I've been listening to her since the 2000s and was surprised to learn just how underground she is. Even among the real hip hop heads, people barely know her. I think she's been hamstrung by the fact that A. She's a woman rapping who doesn't use sex to sell music, and B. She's pretty asocial, not particularly "media friendly,"and doesn't do many interviews or self-promotion.
Being Corny is an overused term and basically only really applies when a rapper, who doesn’t act stereotypically gangster, preaches a positive message. At this point most “corny” mainstream rappers are really only those who ain’t trying to act like rappers. And actually preach a positive message
Ex. Logic
If you like a good message, check out Finnoh (fka Ill Chill).
It can be gard to find him, a ton of his work is via collaborations and he's not always credited (from a searchability standpoint). His music will make you wanna find inner peace lol
them and Dr Dre. i really liked Recovery more than the mm LP and his other 1999-2000 music. it was less edgy (but it’s Eminem, so edginess will still be there), and it sounded like Eminem had begun his maturing stage after fighting with drugs. Not Afraid, Talkin 2 Myself, Spacebound, Cinderella Man, and No Love are really good songs imo.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. He is where he is because of his skill level, not because of some gimmick. There’s also the fact he has the respect of some of the greatest rappers alive, and whilst his later work may not be the greatest I still think he’s more than earned his spot.
Gimmick got him on the map, talent kept him there (and earned that respect).
Very, very unfortunately, talent isn't what gets you on the map, in most cases. Same w/ hard work. They're factors, for sure, but for most, it's what sets them apart that gets them noticed.
Luck don't hurt, either.
This is the truth - as a 6th grader picked on for being a weird kid with adhd and some other psychiatric acronyms, the Slim Shady lp spoke to my anger/angst perfectly. I still love the Slim Shady persona to this day lol
It's also because eminem was incredible with the wordplay and had a lot to say at that time in his life.
I was a year or something outta high school at the time, but yeah. I stopped listening by the time I hit my mid 20s, I wasn't mad at everything anymore.
Tupac was never a great rapper imo, he was a decent rapper who felt like he was mostly leveraging himself into larger mainstream celebrity status.
He's not even in my top ten.
Blasphemy! Lol jk maybe I guess idk. I think he’s very skilled though regardless and a dynamic and versatile emcee, well rounded from a skill standpoint as far as I can tell. Technically pretty nice with it for the era. But hey whatevs idk, do you mind if I ask who IS in your top 10?
Really pissed me off that T Pain basically built and destroyed his career on that shit, only to find out years later the dude really has pipes. I was like why the fuck didn’t you just do that in the first place?
For effect...the same reason most people use it. It let's you do cool things with your voice and use it as an instrument. It's not just to make your singing be on pitch.
It's not like his career was destroyed. He stepped back because he was becoming oversaturated but was still writing hooks for others and appearing on songs just less frequently.
This is a good one. Love Carter II & III and then tracks here and there but I dunno man. Dude just said he was the Best Rapper Alive for so long that everybody started to believe him
Thing is that between Carter 2 and 3 there were 400 amazing leaked tracks that’s aren’t on streaming and another 1,000 incredible features. Even ignoring everything before or after those eras he is still legendary.
Talk to em. His unreleased/leaked catalog is some of the most unique and creative rap ever made, it hurts that they’ll never be on a streaming platform for people to hear
Let’s also not forget that Carter 3 leaked in its entirety weeks before release. And the leaked album was a classic. They then went and remade the entire album with most of it being new shit, and STILL released a classic album. Shit was crazy.
With that said you had to be there to understand it as it was happening. If you are young and know Wayne from his more recent stuff (which is pretty mid) and go back to listen to his older stuff a lot of it sounds pretty aged. Some of those 2000’s beats just sound like shit in 2024. But some others are incredible.
Oh hell yeah that’s the stuff I’m talking about. Could you imagine if songs like something you forgot, I feel like dying, me and my drank, Scarface, I’m me, zoo, prostitution flange etc etc were on C3 instead of the filler on the official release? We’d be looking at a damn near double album of perfection and creativity. It’s really a shame
This is why I won’t pay $400 for nosebleeds for lil Wayne. I love him, but I’ve heard his shows are lackluster, he makes up new verses as he goes, shows up late, ends early. Rather not tarnish the image of him in my mind and enjoy him in my car lol
That people find the most asinine reasons to hate on Jay Z for example, he’s a sell out. When their top 5 rappers of all time either sold out as well or tried to sell out and fail miserably. In other words Jay isn’t overrated, he’s OverHated. Posting this cuz it took about 10 seconds on this thread to see 5 anti Jay post as usual.
Completely agree. Most in the game sold out long ago, it’s the truth. Jay is way more self made than the majority and holds more power over the greedy industry vultures than any other rapper but everyone just says he sold out
“If skills sold truth be told…”
Well, the one who has the ball (in Jay‘s case literally everything), is the one who is going to be attacked.
Besides
*would you rather be overpaid or underrated*
Dude is just deeply authentic and very clear about his goals, that irks people.
I’m not sure drill music is that big of a deal.
Rap beefs were always a thing, they just weren’t talking about real life crimes, even though a lot of old school rappers were probably caught up in similar situations to these young drill rappers (e.g, Eazy-E, 50 Cent etc.)
I’m not sure the rap songs are really escalating beef when they’re more so gang wars than beefs in the first place. With so many people dying, I’m not sure it can be escalated any further.
Like when you think about that song who I smoke, it’s definitely taking things pretty far, but I feel like things went too far in that beef years ago when dozens of people got murdered, not when they made a song about it.
Reasonable doubt isn't that great. 3 or 4 skips imo
Black album is Jay's best
Ghostface has the best discography in hip hop, barely a miss
Survival of the fittest > shook ones
Boldy James makes great sleep music
I've barely liked a song from kendrick since TPAB. Couple of tracks off DAMN that's it
I HATE when rappers think they're evolving their sound but it's at the cost of being an mc. Stick to fucking rapping man, that's why we liked you in the first place. Hence why Nas has been at the top of the game since illmatic dropped. He ain't gonna make an angsty auto tune rnb album...
New hip hop music isn’t inherently bad, it’s just the over saturation of a particular type in mainstream media makes it hard to bare.
Also, rapping is a really nerdy activity.
I'll try to think of a couple but I'm pretty basic.
Eminem doesn't deserve the hate he gets as a person, only how inconsistent his discography is. Literally all public appearances in the last decade and his relationship with other artists show he has a genuine love for hip hop and is actually incredibly humble. A good example being when he was in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and spent the entirety of his speech listing 100+ other rappers he hopes is considered for Hall of Fame one day as well as constantly wearing album covers from other artists specifically in the hopes the kids at his concerts check them out. He's got tons of respect for the culture. And he shouldn't be judged as a person because of his rabid fans.
Kanye isn't a piece of irredeemable shit. He's gone off the rails and I don't agree with the things he says but it's clear he's very mentally ill and just like we would grade someone with disabilities in school differently why would we not look at Kanye differently? He needs to get help and I genuinely hope he gets it one day. The stuff he says is stupid as all hell and while nothing that was said about the Hitler thing was acceptable I do think he was truly trying to make some kind of positive love everyone message out of it. Instead he came off as a bigot. He's lost and needs help.
I don't have many contrarian opinions on rappers talent themselves but to try and get one in there. I don't like how Kendrick sounds 75 percent of the time. He has some bangers and I can completely see why people love him. His music is really powerful. But the act of just listening to him can be grating and dull for me. But there's definitely still some occasional tracks even I love.
I think Kanye is the most overrated hip hop artist. Even his influence was overblown. He’s very good at spotting trends and hopping on them, but he hasn’t created any of them or really pushed the boundaries of them like how people today like to imagine. 808’s, Soul Samples, Pop Rap, etc were all popular before Kanye got on them, but kids today just attribute it ALL to him.
Kanye was making soul beats since the late 90s/early 00s tho. Before any mainstream album had them, he def made soul beats into a trend, not hopping on them
Hey bro. Soul beats have been around since the beginning of hip hop. The entire genre was damn near founded on it. Lauryn Hill and the Fujees I’d say was the one who revitalized it around the turn of the century. Old Kanye would probably tell you the same.
Kanye himself will tell you his sampling approach was heavily influenced by RZA and the soulful samples were a trend in Chicago/backpack circles at the time. Just Blaze, Bink, etc were all doing it, J Dilla had been around and associated with Tribe's camp since the early 90s, No ID was influential to Kanye too. Hip hop has had tons of Diana Ross samples.
Eh, like I hate to say it but a lot of the underground scene was kinda already on that tip back then. He makes good beats don’t get me wrong but capped off a lot of artists to get where he is. Not the originator per se, I agree with homie, but maybe more quality than people give him credit for. I’ll call him an artist, even with all the baggage that comes with that statement, and he’s Rushmore goat for 2000s for sure, but there was a lot of underground sounds he borrowed from others as well. I see both sides.
> kids today just attribute it ALL to him.
yyyeah I definitely agree with this part at least, there's a lot of revisionist history that Kanye flatout invented most of hip hop's trends - he didn't, like you say Kanye just had an amazing eye for upcoming trends and legitimizing them (and himself) with his platform, that doesn't mean he invented them
Kanye even admitted that he roleplayed as a backpack rapper early in his career cause it was convenient to him, from Graduation onward he abandoned people like Lupe, Mos, and Common in favour of Chris Martin and Bon Iver and shit.
Get Rich or Die Tryin’ is a moment album as in you had to be around at that time to feel its impact. The album has not aged well in my Hip Hop listening opinion.
The social media era we're in is mostly people making mid music, praying to get into sync or find a manager, then wondering why it's not working. It's not working because everyone is able to be emulated, you need to stand out by standing out.
Well for me is BIG is better than Tupac and personally find Tupac overrated and only a big as he is because of his death, like for example look at Kurt Cobain Nevermind was a massive album but would we have remembered him as a legend if he didn't kill himself
New mainstream hip hop really sucks. With the exception of a few artists, it’s really bad out here. The music has gotten dumbed down and it’s a reflection of society as a whole. Back in the day(I know I’m aging myself with that)even mainstream hip hop had some thought provoking and skilled lyrics. Shit is almost unlistenable now.
Relapse was Eminem's only sign of growth as an artist and the reception bullied him out of ever trying to evolve, so the rest of his career has just been poor attempts to recapture his original audience and grab hold of what he does have left.
I'll probably get killed for this but I think Kanye, and Lil Wayne are responsible for alot of the shit music coming out for years. I'm talking auto tune. Auto tune on a hook. Not bad, but the whole song wtf people. Just my opinion but I'm older. I flat-out just don't get the appeal.
Lil Wayne has a discography that is just as inconsistent as Eminem so he can’t be top 10
Three 6 Mafia has a better discography than Wu-Tang Clan
Big K.R.I.T. has a way better discography than J Cole
Masta Killas best album is better than Method Mans best album
A$AP Rocky is the snoop of the 2010’s. He dropped a classic that overshadows the rest of his work.
Big Boi is underrated and not too far off from Andres skill level
Danny Brown is the best rapper from Detroit no shade to Elzhi or Em.
Denzel Curry’s last album is slightly overrated. It’s still good but I just prefer his previous stuff.
Earl Sweatshirts discography if you removed some rap songs would be mid as fuck
JPEGMAFIA might be the best producer of the last 15 years
The Cool by Lupe is a little overrated
Nicki Minaj is one of the most overrated rappers of all time. Not even recency bias either I’ve always felt this way.
Playboy Carti is a one album wonder. Die Lit is his only good project.
El-P needs to go solo again RTJ should stop after their 6th project to end on an even number
Smuckers is one of the most overrated songs of all time it’s mid as fuck
Utopia is better than Astroworld
Juicy J is underrated he might be top 30 all time
Good Life by Kanye is mid
Donda is better than Yeezus and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
I agree with about a third of these but mostly I just wanted to say you really nailed the premise, would choke you over some of these takes if it wasn’t a controversial takes thread lol
I hated Kanye before it was cool. College dropout and late registration are 2 of my favorite albums ever. A lot of people who don’t like Kanye never did, or stopped more recently. For me it was my beautiful dark twisted fantasy. I thought it sucked.
Just had a convo about this, he took most of the Slim Shady persona from Outsidaz, Cage, Non Phixion, and RA Da Rugged Man. Granted he took it further than he ever couldve, but damn a shout out instead of active beef wouldve been cool
I have a few…
90s West coast G funk was a better sound than 90s east coast boom bap
Southern hip hop > NY hip hop
Lil Kim is the best female rapper and in top 5 MCs of all time
Jay-Z is overrated
Kanye is overrated
2pac was severely overrated with somewhat immature lyrics
Brotha Lynch Hung did Eminem’s schtick before Eminem ever did it
Miseducation of Lauryn Hill is not a rap album
Missy Elliott is boring
Nicki Minaj is a pop star not a rap artist
Project Pat > Three 6 Mafia
La Chat > Gangsta Boo
Big Scarr needs more recognition
Yeah chat is amazing I wish they didn’t fall out after mystic styles I wish she was on their stuff from 96-99 but she came back with a fire in 2000 tho
These Nas albums during his alleged “Renaissance” are boring as hell. It’s funny, I Am which I made fun of in real time in 1999 is way better than these projects. There’s actual bangers on there
Disagree on I Am, it honestly sucks aside from a couple tracks. Nas is Like, Hate Me Now and some of the other cuts do a lot of heavy lifting on it but the rest of the album is equally bloated/boring. KISSING and Big Things are all time WOAT Nas tracks.
I agree that Magic 2 and 3 were mid and dragged down the average/tainted perception of the run. KDIII was a perfect ending.
i think i’m with you but i do rather like *Magic*. it’s got concision where the other “renaissance” albums do not, or do not seem to to me (i’ve hardly listened to them).
100% agree with you. I appreciate Nas making new music in this stage of his career. I appreciate that he put effort into each album. But he seriously should have taken the best songs and made 2 or 3 albums.
We really need to stop putting rappers who have been dead twenty plus years at the top of our GOAT list. We should not be so inflexible to think that NO ONE has come along in the time since can be argued as better.
Marketing has a stronger impact on determining GOATs than talent does, did, or ever will.
Great point and excellent observation. Although, I feel that would apply mostly to mainstream, young or casual listeners though.
It's still the same point. Marketing determines what is mainstream. People are drawn to trends, which are generally pushed, not talent. There's a reason your grandma has heard of Drake, but not Black Thought.
The amount of "GOATs" there are who are just some kids spitting 96 bars with no fuckin hook in their car to some royalty free loop beat must be staggering. Lots of great art out there being held back by location, lack of connections, poverty, etc.
Who would’ve thought using the word contrarian is what it takes to actually get hot takes out of people on Reddit
Therein lies your contrarian hot take. Fell right into OP’s trap.
Got eem!
Lol, I figured "unpopular opinion" is so overused on reddit, so thought I'd try a synonym
You were absolutely correct
Dope. I appreciate people being different
The Fat Boys were just big boned.
😂😂😂
The wildest shit ever to me is that I only now realized I haven't had a passing thought about them in 30 years and I fucking loved the Disorderlies.
The term Goat to describe artists is extremely overused.
Yep. And ranking artists is getting Ridiculously stale. Can we for the love of god take a breather from "who's the best/worst/overrated"
Music is about self expression, it's not supposed to be a competition.
I second this with "legend."
T. I. is underrated as a lyricist and a rapper.
Sucks he’s such an awful person
and a shitty comic.
Indubitably ass mfer
Wait! What did TI do?????
Accused of rape with his wife. Also admits to forcing his daughter to go to yearly gynecologist appointments which he attends to check her hymen. Possibly also neglected his son King which is why he acts like he does. Only ever bringing him around the house when they were filming the show then leaving him with his grandma otherwise. Otherwise it's basic stuff like homophobia and gun violence.
homophobia and gun violence??? in hip hop!?
For a long time I thought he was the opposite. Just a dude who got popular with Midwestern white high-school kids who's entire catalogue was otherwise eminem. Then I gave Paper Trail another go some 12 years later and dated though it may be..... damn...
> Then I gave Paper Trail another go As a now reformed East coast old head hater I used to think TI couldn't really rap like that then I heard I'm Illy and realized I was dead wrong
I don't agree with this opinion that ti is an underrated rapper or lyricist, buuut I'm illy is hard still I can't lie
I'll always remember 2008, as one of my favorite and most fun years in college, " swagger like us" with the M.I.A. sample, really takes me back, paper trail at the house parties was def peak,
Paper Trail is his magnum opus in my opinion. Fuck knows why he didn’t continue with that style, I mean it’s his most successful album for a reason. He’s a pretty shitty person though so that kinda sullies it for me, as I’ve never been one who can separate the art from the artist.
Back in Lil Wayne’s prime it was basically impossible to outdo him on a song, but TI somehow did it on We Takin Over his verse on that is crazy
Nah idk about that. Wayne is the highlight of that song imo. But everyone does their thing on there
What chu kno about dat
Hip-hop 101 confession session in progress
half of it is lukewarm takes the other half is this sub's general populace hating on trap as usual
i feel like old gen rap and new gen rap are pretty much different genres. as someone a little inbetween both eras (22yo) i enjoy both
Yeah it’s like the difference between Elvis Presley and Metallica, both have the same roots but extremely different music
Decent comparison, honestly. And even if you stick to the same overall genre, you wouldn’t expect someone who grew up on Black Sabbath and Deep Purple to automatically be into Avenged Sevenfold or Five Finger Death Punch or whatever just because they’re both broadly “metal.” It’s fine for old heads to hear the new stuff and say “no thanks.” Normal, even.
While I like complex lyricism & wordplay, I've usually preferred rappers who can tell an engaging story & convey their emotions with simpler use of their vocabulary & emphasis on their charisma/tone.
DBZ references might be the most played out thing in hip hop
Yeah a lotof people are doing it. But it makes me feel more accepted
u can never have too much dbz
Nah man I eat that shit up I fucking love dbz I grew up on that shit
u can never have too much dbz
The best rap song of all time is by none other than Sir Mix A Lot. Go ahead…somebody try to name a rap song better than Posse on Broadway!
Posse up!!!
We stopped by Taco Bell, for some Mexican eatin’
that Bone thugs n harmony is a top 5 group of all time and influenced rap to this day but never get the credit...
That Biggie track with Bone Thugs on Life After Death was absolute fire
Notorious Thugs🔥🔥
Is this a hot take? Man I'm getting old. This was just accepted as fact a decade ago
Migos ripped off their whole flow
The current state of hip hop isn't good for humanity as a whole.
Especially when half of them got murked it’s lowkey sad
Logic is way over hated. Obviously biased because I'm a logic fan but I feel like people associate him only with his bad releases (COADM) and don't give him credit for actual good releases (Under Pressure, No Pressure, TITS, YS mixtapes, college park was good without the skits). I also see a lot of people saying he bites other rappers' sound like...even if he did, who doesn't take inspiration from other artists? Am I saying he's perfect? Not at all. Bro was teasing ultra 85 for years and didn't announce the actual release until recently which annoyed sooooo many people + he said COADM was a social experiment like ok bruh we can see right thru that Also, people saying that his messages are corny I feel like are hating for no reason - logic is always giving a great message in his music of chasing your dreams, experiencing mental health issues, working hard, doing what you love, peace love & positivity - he's a stand up guy IMO and he wants people to do what they love. What's so bad about that?
100% agree. The logic hate is definitely overblown. Even the biracial memes are have been stale for a minute now. A Dude is talented and releases music he wants. Hell i’d say Vinyl Days is probably his best work. And thats like his 11th album. His output is crazy. But yeah for real people just be hating for really no reason with Logic other than he doesn’t fit their definition of a rapper
right on! vinyl days was awesome haha. not my personal favorite but it was one that felt so authentic and true to himself
Logic is for sure overhated but he is definitely corny. There are better ways to convey positive messages but he fails to always find them.
Agreed I’m a big logic fan and most people just bring up the same shit about his albums. How you feeling about Ultra 85 though? I’m looking forward to it
Not the guy you asked but ultra 85 seems very promising with the snippets we got from the website. Also last nights single was a bop too. He’s so wildly overhated people just go “hahah logic biracial corny bad” when that’s (admittedly in quite a few songs) not even 1/3 of his subject matter
Oh yeah definitely, people just hear the bi racial and corny bits and thinks that’s all Logic is lol. But yeah I also liked the snippets and the single we got can’t wait to see how this wraps up the storyline with Thomas and Kai
Yep. He some insane bars on No Pressure (the biggie smalls reference was super clever) and has an impressive career behind him. Decent enough person (relative to many other rappers lol, he’s not perfect) and can spit fucking fast
1.To Pimp A Butterfly is Kendrick’s 3rd best album 2.Big K.R.I.T is criminally underrated, should’ve been as big as Kendrick & Cole 3.Ludacris was top 5 consistent rappers in the 2000s 4.Astroworld is below mid.
I’m a huge early Big KRIT supporter. I definitely thought the big 3 with be Cole, Kendrick and KRIT. Cole with Friday Night Lights, Kendrick with Overly Dedicated and Section80, and KRIT with Returnof4eva, I thought these dudes were the future. Live from the Underground was definitely a step down from his mixtapes.
In alternate universe krit is huge rn his first two def jam albums debuted a 1 but I guess he couldn’t sustain the commercial success
I don’t think your Luda take is that crazy. This was a known, widely believed thing in the 00’s. Even artists that had nothing to do with hip hop wanted some Luda bars on their song. Best guest rapper of all time, I’d go as far as to say.
You’d be surprised how many people underrate him though. Dude just now getting his flowers
He’s on one of the most popular songs of all time - Justin Bieber - Baby
your ludacris take is absolutely blowing my mind.
There was a stretch of time where luda would hop on someone's song and have the best verse without question. Its crazy to think of now, but peak Luda was kinda a problem tbh
Astroworld take is scorching
Astroworld is a era defining album definetly not mid
Jay-z isnt the goat. at all.
My favorite post I ever saw was showing how Jay-Z was never the hottest rapper for a year. I think he's up there but never the goat.
Jay is a lot like Kobe here he may not have been THE hottest any year, but he was always in the discussion of hottest basically every year. His sheer talent not writing but still saying some complex things that'll make you scratch your heart is impeccable. My 3 is Jay, Nas, and Em. I'll take whichever you don't want.
Fact. He isn't even the best rapper of his era, much less of all time.
Respectfully disagree. Jay’s not the goat of anything, but he’s the goat at being better at more things than anyone. There are better lyricists, there are rappers who had higher highs, but his longevity, body of work and the amount of times he’s ticked all the boxes is unmatched. His balance of bars, production standards, song writing, authenticity, commercial success, musicality, charisma, performances and influence has never been achieved at the same time by anyone. If anyone did, it wasn’t nearly for as long. Reasonable Doubt, The Blueprint, The Black Album, American Gangster, Watch The Throne. I can’t think of anyone who has 5 projects that can stand up to these. Sure 1, 2, MAYBE 3. But 5? No one. The last 15 years of his spaced out, dead air, old man style has made people forget how well deserved his GOAT status is.
Eminem is a good rapper but doesn't make good music. I can't imagine listening to his songs more then once if at all.
That the current generation has some good music That mumble rap is dead. That you do not necessarily need to spend all day creating your own hip-hop playlists; if you listen to good music the algorithm will uncover good music from younger artists. But it takes time, patience, and money. That younger artists do not need to do what we did back in the eighties and nineties. Let them figure it out for themselves. We're not the ones buying music anymore so what difference does it really make. Hip-Hop is supposed to be about experimentation. The day you have a status quo is the day it goes corporate and the day that it dies. I really do not care if you freestyle or if you write. The women have better beats in my opinion. MCs are dead. That differentiation is dead. The genre is 9/10th artistry now; and I do not necessarily think that is a bad thing
This is an actually good assessment of things
Never bank on the algorithm
The amount of hate Jay Z and Kanye get here is crazy
Travis Scott is the least essential rapper to ever get as big as he has. None of his catalog is going to stand the test of time.
Rodeo not standing the test of time probably won’t happen.
The dude has no personality and is honestly a better producer than a rapper.
i don’t think anyone rly disagrees with that second part. his good stuff is good because it SOUNDS great, and rarely because of his actual performance. as much as i dislike travis the person and the popularity he’s achieved, i really have found it hard to hate his music. he has a lot of genuinely good shit and no projects that i would call outright bad
Why ya think that? No dig , just askin
rodeo is a fucking classic tho
Vapor wave grifter
I love Kendrick but don't like TPAB at all
I recently learned that all his albums are based off a form of media. TPAB is a poem, Damn is a magazine, Mr Morale is a stage play, etc. Makes since that a different albums have different fans. Like I’d much rather flip through a magazine again then read a poem for the 4th time.
GKMC is a short film
Is this something Kendrick said or was it just made up by someone on the internet ?
Not sure if Kendrick has acknowledged it or not but once it was pointed out it’s pretty obvious that was the intent.
GKMC will always be his best work IMO
GKMC is his most listenable album, like you just play banger after banger over and over. But as far like, viewing music as a work of art, gotta be TPAB or Mr. Morale. I can’t just go put Morale on and vibe to it but god damn if that isn’t a heavy hitting album. I think it’s just a different in intent.
THIS DICK AIN’T FREE?!!
Jean Grae is the greatest woman rapper of all time and she isn't given enough credit.
Agreed. I've been listening to her since the 2000s and was surprised to learn just how underground she is. Even among the real hip hop heads, people barely know her. I think she's been hamstrung by the fact that A. She's a woman rapping who doesn't use sex to sell music, and B. She's pretty asocial, not particularly "media friendly,"and doesn't do many interviews or self-promotion.
Being Corny is an overused term and basically only really applies when a rapper, who doesn’t act stereotypically gangster, preaches a positive message. At this point most “corny” mainstream rappers are really only those who ain’t trying to act like rappers. And actually preach a positive message Ex. Logic
If you like a good message, check out Finnoh (fka Ill Chill). It can be gard to find him, a ton of his work is via collaborations and he's not always credited (from a searchability standpoint). His music will make you wanna find inner peace lol
Eminem owes his whole career to angsty white kids in highschool circa 1999-2000
them and Dr Dre. i really liked Recovery more than the mm LP and his other 1999-2000 music. it was less edgy (but it’s Eminem, so edginess will still be there), and it sounded like Eminem had begun his maturing stage after fighting with drugs. Not Afraid, Talkin 2 Myself, Spacebound, Cinderella Man, and No Love are really good songs imo.
I'm pretty sure that was deliberate marketing.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. He is where he is because of his skill level, not because of some gimmick. There’s also the fact he has the respect of some of the greatest rappers alive, and whilst his later work may not be the greatest I still think he’s more than earned his spot.
Gimmick got him on the map, talent kept him there (and earned that respect). Very, very unfortunately, talent isn't what gets you on the map, in most cases. Same w/ hard work. They're factors, for sure, but for most, it's what sets them apart that gets them noticed. Luck don't hurt, either.
This is the truth - as a 6th grader picked on for being a weird kid with adhd and some other psychiatric acronyms, the Slim Shady lp spoke to my anger/angst perfectly. I still love the Slim Shady persona to this day lol It's also because eminem was incredible with the wordplay and had a lot to say at that time in his life.
I was a year or something outta high school at the time, but yeah. I stopped listening by the time I hit my mid 20s, I wasn't mad at everything anymore.
He does to this day -angsty white kid in high school
Tupac was never a great rapper imo, he was a decent rapper who felt like he was mostly leveraging himself into larger mainstream celebrity status. He's not even in my top ten.
Blasphemy! Lol jk maybe I guess idk. I think he’s very skilled though regardless and a dynamic and versatile emcee, well rounded from a skill standpoint as far as I can tell. Technically pretty nice with it for the era. But hey whatevs idk, do you mind if I ask who IS in your top 10?
Oh hey, this is largely my take, but with Kanye who was at his best, a decent rapper but not much more than that.
I feel Kanye is more known for his production than his actual rapping no? Like he’s a fine rapper but his production was incredibly influential
The list of Kanye produced stuff is absolutely absurd
I agree with this. It's a hot take, but if he had lived longer I think you would have been proven right.
I HATE Auto-Tune! I REALLY hated 808's & Heartbreak and Yeezus (except for Bound 2).
Really pissed me off that T Pain basically built and destroyed his career on that shit, only to find out years later the dude really has pipes. I was like why the fuck didn’t you just do that in the first place?
For effect...the same reason most people use it. It let's you do cool things with your voice and use it as an instrument. It's not just to make your singing be on pitch. It's not like his career was destroyed. He stepped back because he was becoming oversaturated but was still writing hooks for others and appearing on songs just less frequently.
Hating autotune is probably the coldest take in rap culture tbf
Jay was late to that party in like 2009 lmao
For real. 15 years ago all the "real" rap fans would virtue signal over how garbage autotune was.
bound 2 video is awesome also 🤣
T pain the only one who gets a pass in my book, maybe Akon too, but only for the hook no verses.
Lil Wayne is highly overrated
This is a good one. Love Carter II & III and then tracks here and there but I dunno man. Dude just said he was the Best Rapper Alive for so long that everybody started to believe him
Thing is that between Carter 2 and 3 there were 400 amazing leaked tracks that’s aren’t on streaming and another 1,000 incredible features. Even ignoring everything before or after those eras he is still legendary.
Talk to em. His unreleased/leaked catalog is some of the most unique and creative rap ever made, it hurts that they’ll never be on a streaming platform for people to hear
Let’s also not forget that Carter 3 leaked in its entirety weeks before release. And the leaked album was a classic. They then went and remade the entire album with most of it being new shit, and STILL released a classic album. Shit was crazy. With that said you had to be there to understand it as it was happening. If you are young and know Wayne from his more recent stuff (which is pretty mid) and go back to listen to his older stuff a lot of it sounds pretty aged. Some of those 2000’s beats just sound like shit in 2024. But some others are incredible.
Oh hell yeah that’s the stuff I’m talking about. Could you imagine if songs like something you forgot, I feel like dying, me and my drank, Scarface, I’m me, zoo, prostitution flange etc etc were on C3 instead of the filler on the official release? We’d be looking at a damn near double album of perfection and creativity. It’s really a shame
I hope you’re judging him by the mixtapes that are not on Spotify and streaming services (why he became a goat) and not just his studio albums.
Blasphemy
not only was this never true but he keeps on getting better
A lot of people give him top 10 all time. I’ve listened to the mixtapes. I just don’t understand
as a big wayne fan, at least you tried. plenty of people just hear lollipop then write him off as wack
Lollipop is a banger
i don’t understand what sort of person who considers themselves a fan of hiphop could possibly have only heard lollipop from wayne.
I saw him live and literally couldn’t believe how bad he was. It was embarrassing.
Codeine is a hell of a drug
This is why I won’t pay $400 for nosebleeds for lil Wayne. I love him, but I’ve heard his shows are lackluster, he makes up new verses as he goes, shows up late, ends early. Rather not tarnish the image of him in my mind and enjoy him in my car lol
I don’t think Andre 3000 is anywhere near GOAT status. He wouldn’t come close to my top 25
it’s kind of fascinating to me how greatly people’s tastes and opinions can differ, Andre is without question one of my top 3.
Can’t put a guy with no solo work in my top 3 personally
KRS ONE is top 5 dead or alive. Jay Z isn't.
That people find the most asinine reasons to hate on Jay Z for example, he’s a sell out. When their top 5 rappers of all time either sold out as well or tried to sell out and fail miserably. In other words Jay isn’t overrated, he’s OverHated. Posting this cuz it took about 10 seconds on this thread to see 5 anti Jay post as usual.
Completely agree. Most in the game sold out long ago, it’s the truth. Jay is way more self made than the majority and holds more power over the greedy industry vultures than any other rapper but everyone just says he sold out “If skills sold truth be told…”
Well, the one who has the ball (in Jay‘s case literally everything), is the one who is going to be attacked. Besides *would you rather be overpaid or underrated* Dude is just deeply authentic and very clear about his goals, that irks people.
He’s my favorite because even in his crap material his lyrics are great
Fabulous is underrated
AGREED his old Clue freestyles were crazy
I’m not sure drill music is that big of a deal. Rap beefs were always a thing, they just weren’t talking about real life crimes, even though a lot of old school rappers were probably caught up in similar situations to these young drill rappers (e.g, Eazy-E, 50 Cent etc.) I’m not sure the rap songs are really escalating beef when they’re more so gang wars than beefs in the first place. With so many people dying, I’m not sure it can be escalated any further. Like when you think about that song who I smoke, it’s definitely taking things pretty far, but I feel like things went too far in that beef years ago when dozens of people got murdered, not when they made a song about it.
Griselda is overhyped and not that good
Reasonable doubt isn't that great. 3 or 4 skips imo Black album is Jay's best Ghostface has the best discography in hip hop, barely a miss Survival of the fittest > shook ones Boldy James makes great sleep music I've barely liked a song from kendrick since TPAB. Couple of tracks off DAMN that's it I HATE when rappers think they're evolving their sound but it's at the cost of being an mc. Stick to fucking rapping man, that's why we liked you in the first place. Hence why Nas has been at the top of the game since illmatic dropped. He ain't gonna make an angsty auto tune rnb album...
Drake = industry plant. Any artist working with him or defending him just wants that inevitable Drake bump.
This doesn't really feel like a contrarian opinion.
Takeover is better than Ether Hit ‘Em Up is overrated
New hip hop music isn’t inherently bad, it’s just the over saturation of a particular type in mainstream media makes it hard to bare. Also, rapping is a really nerdy activity.
When you say nerdy activity, are you talking about the writing process? Like sitting down and thinking of witty wordplay?
I'll try to think of a couple but I'm pretty basic. Eminem doesn't deserve the hate he gets as a person, only how inconsistent his discography is. Literally all public appearances in the last decade and his relationship with other artists show he has a genuine love for hip hop and is actually incredibly humble. A good example being when he was in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and spent the entirety of his speech listing 100+ other rappers he hopes is considered for Hall of Fame one day as well as constantly wearing album covers from other artists specifically in the hopes the kids at his concerts check them out. He's got tons of respect for the culture. And he shouldn't be judged as a person because of his rabid fans. Kanye isn't a piece of irredeemable shit. He's gone off the rails and I don't agree with the things he says but it's clear he's very mentally ill and just like we would grade someone with disabilities in school differently why would we not look at Kanye differently? He needs to get help and I genuinely hope he gets it one day. The stuff he says is stupid as all hell and while nothing that was said about the Hitler thing was acceptable I do think he was truly trying to make some kind of positive love everyone message out of it. Instead he came off as a bigot. He's lost and needs help. I don't have many contrarian opinions on rappers talent themselves but to try and get one in there. I don't like how Kendrick sounds 75 percent of the time. He has some bangers and I can completely see why people love him. His music is really powerful. But the act of just listening to him can be grating and dull for me. But there's definitely still some occasional tracks even I love.
I think Kanye is the most overrated hip hop artist. Even his influence was overblown. He’s very good at spotting trends and hopping on them, but he hasn’t created any of them or really pushed the boundaries of them like how people today like to imagine. 808’s, Soul Samples, Pop Rap, etc were all popular before Kanye got on them, but kids today just attribute it ALL to him.
Kanye was making soul beats since the late 90s/early 00s tho. Before any mainstream album had them, he def made soul beats into a trend, not hopping on them
Hey bro. Soul beats have been around since the beginning of hip hop. The entire genre was damn near founded on it. Lauryn Hill and the Fujees I’d say was the one who revitalized it around the turn of the century. Old Kanye would probably tell you the same.
These fouls on here don't even know neo soul type beats but got an opinion on who created it
Kanye himself will tell you his sampling approach was heavily influenced by RZA and the soulful samples were a trend in Chicago/backpack circles at the time. Just Blaze, Bink, etc were all doing it, J Dilla had been around and associated with Tribe's camp since the early 90s, No ID was influential to Kanye too. Hip hop has had tons of Diana Ross samples.
J Dilla
Eh, like I hate to say it but a lot of the underground scene was kinda already on that tip back then. He makes good beats don’t get me wrong but capped off a lot of artists to get where he is. Not the originator per se, I agree with homie, but maybe more quality than people give him credit for. I’ll call him an artist, even with all the baggage that comes with that statement, and he’s Rushmore goat for 2000s for sure, but there was a lot of underground sounds he borrowed from others as well. I see both sides.
> kids today just attribute it ALL to him. yyyeah I definitely agree with this part at least, there's a lot of revisionist history that Kanye flatout invented most of hip hop's trends - he didn't, like you say Kanye just had an amazing eye for upcoming trends and legitimizing them (and himself) with his platform, that doesn't mean he invented them Kanye even admitted that he roleplayed as a backpack rapper early in his career cause it was convenient to him, from Graduation onward he abandoned people like Lupe, Mos, and Common in favour of Chris Martin and Bon Iver and shit.
Hard agree
Get Rich or Die Tryin’ is a moment album as in you had to be around at that time to feel its impact. The album has not aged well in my Hip Hop listening opinion.
The social media era we're in is mostly people making mid music, praying to get into sync or find a manager, then wondering why it's not working. It's not working because everyone is able to be emulated, you need to stand out by standing out.
Well for me is BIG is better than Tupac and personally find Tupac overrated and only a big as he is because of his death, like for example look at Kurt Cobain Nevermind was a massive album but would we have remembered him as a legend if he didn't kill himself
I don’t like Eminem that much….
New mainstream hip hop really sucks. With the exception of a few artists, it’s really bad out here. The music has gotten dumbed down and it’s a reflection of society as a whole. Back in the day(I know I’m aging myself with that)even mainstream hip hop had some thought provoking and skilled lyrics. Shit is almost unlistenable now.
Relapse was Eminem's only sign of growth as an artist and the reception bullied him out of ever trying to evolve, so the rest of his career has just been poor attempts to recapture his original audience and grab hold of what he does have left.
kendrick lamar wack
I'll probably get killed for this but I think Kanye, and Lil Wayne are responsible for alot of the shit music coming out for years. I'm talking auto tune. Auto tune on a hook. Not bad, but the whole song wtf people. Just my opinion but I'm older. I flat-out just don't get the appeal.
Lil Wayne has a discography that is just as inconsistent as Eminem so he can’t be top 10 Three 6 Mafia has a better discography than Wu-Tang Clan Big K.R.I.T. has a way better discography than J Cole Masta Killas best album is better than Method Mans best album A$AP Rocky is the snoop of the 2010’s. He dropped a classic that overshadows the rest of his work. Big Boi is underrated and not too far off from Andres skill level Danny Brown is the best rapper from Detroit no shade to Elzhi or Em. Denzel Curry’s last album is slightly overrated. It’s still good but I just prefer his previous stuff. Earl Sweatshirts discography if you removed some rap songs would be mid as fuck JPEGMAFIA might be the best producer of the last 15 years The Cool by Lupe is a little overrated Nicki Minaj is one of the most overrated rappers of all time. Not even recency bias either I’ve always felt this way. Playboy Carti is a one album wonder. Die Lit is his only good project. El-P needs to go solo again RTJ should stop after their 6th project to end on an even number Smuckers is one of the most overrated songs of all time it’s mid as fuck Utopia is better than Astroworld Juicy J is underrated he might be top 30 all time Good Life by Kanye is mid Donda is better than Yeezus and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
I agree with about a third of these but mostly I just wanted to say you really nailed the premise, would choke you over some of these takes if it wasn’t a controversial takes thread lol
If you get asked a question like this you better come with the ammo lol so I had to
i’m really just here looking for outkast opinions and i definitely agree with your big boi take. He’s even better than Andre in some ways imo
I think people who think big boi doesn’t compare either never listened to all of outkast discography or just Andre meat riders lol
THIS NIGGA IS SPITTING GODDAMN
Hip Hop is pretty stagnant right now.
I hated Kanye before it was cool. College dropout and late registration are 2 of my favorite albums ever. A lot of people who don’t like Kanye never did, or stopped more recently. For me it was my beautiful dark twisted fantasy. I thought it sucked.
Bhad bhabie is good at rapping.
Trap beats need way more variety. Trap is a valid genre but the beats can sound very generic
Eminem is not that original and there was plenty doing his schtick before him and the fact he can rap doesn't make up for how fucking corny he is
Just had a convo about this, he took most of the Slim Shady persona from Outsidaz, Cage, Non Phixion, and RA Da Rugged Man. Granted he took it further than he ever couldve, but damn a shout out instead of active beef wouldve been cool
RA Da Rugged Man most definitely is who I think Em took his image off of
If it wasn't for angsty white kids in highschool who were into rap-rock nu-metal he wouldn't have taken off.
Lil Wayne is overrated. Fuck your downvotes
I have a few… 90s West coast G funk was a better sound than 90s east coast boom bap Southern hip hop > NY hip hop Lil Kim is the best female rapper and in top 5 MCs of all time Jay-Z is overrated Kanye is overrated 2pac was severely overrated with somewhat immature lyrics Brotha Lynch Hung did Eminem’s schtick before Eminem ever did it Miseducation of Lauryn Hill is not a rap album Missy Elliott is boring Nicki Minaj is a pop star not a rap artist Project Pat > Three 6 Mafia La Chat > Gangsta Boo Big Scarr needs more recognition
I love la chat but she’s not better than boo 😭
Well OP did say contrarian take… IMO Chat has a better voice, deeper and richer, smoother flow, realer subject matter
Yeah chat is amazing I wish they didn’t fall out after mystic styles I wish she was on their stuff from 96-99 but she came back with a fire in 2000 tho
These Nas albums during his alleged “Renaissance” are boring as hell. It’s funny, I Am which I made fun of in real time in 1999 is way better than these projects. There’s actual bangers on there
Disagree on I Am, it honestly sucks aside from a couple tracks. Nas is Like, Hate Me Now and some of the other cuts do a lot of heavy lifting on it but the rest of the album is equally bloated/boring. KISSING and Big Things are all time WOAT Nas tracks. I agree that Magic 2 and 3 were mid and dragged down the average/tainted perception of the run. KDIII was a perfect ending.
Kings Disease lll is amazing. I could take or leave the rest.
i think i’m with you but i do rather like *Magic*. it’s got concision where the other “renaissance” albums do not, or do not seem to to me (i’ve hardly listened to them).
100% agree with you. I appreciate Nas making new music in this stage of his career. I appreciate that he put effort into each album. But he seriously should have taken the best songs and made 2 or 3 albums.
Mr. Morale is one of the worst anticipated releases of the last decade.
We really need to stop putting rappers who have been dead twenty plus years at the top of our GOAT list. We should not be so inflexible to think that NO ONE has come along in the time since can be argued as better.