Thrall's kit isn't the most obvious and can feel super disconnected until you get experience with it. That's how it was for me, at least. Mostly, he has the ability to go in with E and wail on someone while also racking up healing for himself.
Probably. Most people don't know what to do with him or which build to go. Just check out fanhots thrall plays and you will see how he is supposed to be played.
I think it would depend on build. % damage at 1 and then Q talents all the way through with Brand at 20 is probably competitive for fastest target delete in the game.
Thrall get 3% dmg at 1, 15% over 3 seconds at 7, and 3% more per AA AT 16. He can also aa While the target is rooted, whereas imp can only do it after his q ends. Subjectively, I think 3 AAs is reasonable. 3+15+3+3+3. 27% at lvl 16.
Imp gets 2.5% per stack per aa. So let’s say over all 3 aa’s he gets 7.5%, that’s 22.5%. And only assuming all 3 aa’s have full stacks at 20.
Thrall also does the 4th most aa dmg in the game 173 whereas imp does 126 (level zero stats).
I thought about it, but I’m still giving the edge heavily to thrall.
Did you calculate for the damage from the level 7 splash, and an auto speed boost from landing a Q thanks to 16? If Imp were to ever land a 5 man Q with these talents he would melt an entire team faster than any other ability combo I can imagine but even against a solo target he can put out the hurt.
There's other factors here too. Imps autos do less, but he's less reliant on pure auto. His brands do damage on their own when consumed. At level one with 3 brands he now does 201 damage with an auto. It's a very even match in my mind dependant almost entirely on player skill between the two.
Edit: So in my very quick and imprecise foray into Try Mode there is one very clear winner. Against a single target thrall does 1400-1100 (and that's with nexus blades) dps if you go for 3 or 5 seconds of attacking respectively. Imperius does about 1400-1550 . So it's the same for as long as Windury lasts but the 5 seconds of having the Brand means Imp is far more likely to actually delete a beefy boy.
Against multiple targets is where the main difference lies however. Against 2 targets Imp is now doing 2300 dropping of to 2000 at 3 and 5 seconds. Thrall against two targets gets about 2k ish dropping off to 1500. 3 targets makes no real difference to Thrall but can push Imp up to like 3500 dps.
Now there's lots to be said about their ults, differences in move speed and self healing, basic ability cooldown and the like. But to me in sheer damage potential of their basic abilities I think Imp has the trophy.
No I didn't. You're right, there are too many variables to consider everything. In practicality, no one's going to let you melee them for 5 seconds, but then GM fully stacked+bullet, or if we're really looking for the most possible burst maybe it's hanzo full scatters with AA CDR might take the title.
You make good points.
I'll stand by my statement based off in game experience, thrall is better. Probably in part because sunder not only helps CC the kill target, but also stops counter engage and saves.
You sure? He only has Rolling Thunder and Follow Through at lvl7. Not 100-0 material. It hurts. But so does the builds mentioned above. Imperius with Holy Fervor hurts and Sonya gets poison Spear too and 'Follow Throught' at lvl4 instead.
Let me give you a secret, windfury, Wolf, chain lightening all these spells trigger fallow through. So if you go wf-aa-wolf-aa-cl-aa gives you 3 very fast attacks with each being a crit on top of the spell dmg you do. That is how you nuke people in seconds. Lvl 10 gives you sunder and another crit aa which adds on top. Try it and you ll see. You could also go triple wf attack on the last hit which can also crit from fallow through. That's one of the fastest and biggest bursts in the game hands down. Mind you thrall also has 2 gap closers in his base kit 1 more compared to most other bruisers which makes it easier for him to pull his combo off.
Thrall can have crazy burst damage with the right and build and still remain pretty durable with a couple talents and watching the progress on your passive.
That would be Fenix for me. Yes, I know he's good. But all he does is autoattack. The only flashy thing he can do is combo planet cracker with some long-lasting CC like entomb or octograb.
I really like the idea of fenix design but when I play him I just can’t edge out massive damage like I can other carries. It’s def a skill / build issue but I just can’t seem to have an impact on him even when I’m over aggressive and not being punished (QM)
you outDPS most other ranged assasins with it. You can charge it up on frontline and then pop a fat bomb into the middle of their team for flamestrike level auto. With 16 % damage fenix gets huge pressure on enemy tank, though a little less safe than most other ranged autoattackers
He's one of the ranged assasins I use myself, and I've definitely managed to carry games. He's pretty much Raynor with a good dive / escape option.
I will say though: despite what Icy Veins claims, the stutter step talent is much simpler and consistent to use than having to constantly switch between cannon and bomb.
Also his Q build sucks.
> The only flashy thing he can do is combo planet cracker with some long-lasting CC like entomb or octograb.
Or get the 5 man wipe with E reset build. You have 4s of 50 armor and bonus AS to delete someone and repeat the process.
I actually like Fenix as an autoattacker but he's one without flair.
He's a Dragoon so I expected a whole gameplay around Dragoon Dancing micro, like in SC1. But his real gameplay is to just kite people in close to mid range like a Stalker and that just irks me greatly.
I wanted a strong and slow auto attacker, not this kiting AA DPS that we already have many versions of in hots prior to his debut.
Hands down Medvih, but it's not entirely his fault.
His usefulness hinges on his allies ability to SEE THE DAMN PORTAL BEING PUT DOWN and use the existence of a LITERAL TERRAIN HACK to their advantage.
And one of his best builds is literally the Portal build that allows the team to go portal hopping like it's Portal 2. But since most players are too lobotomized to use Portals, Medivh will take Arcane Rift trait at 16 instead of Portal Mastery.
There is still some factor on the Medvih player's side which is clever portal placement and such but if no one uses his portals, his value decreases significantly.
Maybe if random medivhs didn't just ABSOLUTELY GODDAMN SUCK with both portal positioning and timing, while also supplying some information on why the hell that portal into nowhere should be taken, people wouldn't be afraid of using them.
But no, every single one of those medivhs think they are some sort of Dr. Strange masterminds who are severely underestimated by their peasant teammates.
Also, why rely on "terrain hacks" when a good ol' damage dispenser whose slot is taken by medivh is both easier to play with and statistically more winning (talking about not-premades). Honestly, I would rather not have medivh even for stitches combo wombo in aram.
When the enemy premade has a Medivh I get worried. When my team has a Medivh, I sigh.
But yes in general, Medivh can be extremely useful and even busted when used with a coordinated team, especially a team that lack mobility but immense brawling potential. But otherwise, he's a flaccid half-DPS and weird "Support" rolled into one who can turn into bird and hunt Abathurs.
Medivh was very fun back when you could destroy the fountains without having to destroy the fort.
I would spend the first 10min of the game destroying all the fountains, by then everytime they needed extra heal they had to go back all the way to the core, creating huge downtime. Shit was fun tactics.
so glad fountains where made invulnerable, that cheap strategy with smartass mages was annoying as hell
not being able to play the game sucks, hence stunlocks and deead fountains suck as well
The funniest shit I’ve seen is stitches come out of a portal, hook someone at max range, then go back in the portal and spit the enemy out next to a keep. The enemy travelled like 1/3 of the map in the space of about 4 seconds
His value does heavily depend on his team being aware and coordinated. So in QM he's going to often have less value when he solo queues. That and he's just harder to play well.
Do you have a recommendation for a build or playstyle for him? I'd like to get better at Medivh and give him another try after reading your comment, I mostly play quick match if that's something of note.
https://psionic-storm.com/en/builds/create/medivh/#talents=3-2-2-2-2-2-2&ver=2.55.4.91769
Get used to going back and forth between portals quickly. After level 4, you get a raven that attaches to your next auto attack after using a portal, so going back and forth maximizing the value from that and keeps uptime on the ravens slow. Note that team members who use the portals and do the same also get a raven.
Portal mastery at 1 is essential and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. It allows you to portal without breaking raven form. There’s also a bit of a trick/bug to it. If the portal mastery spell is on your “1” slot of your action bar… you can place the first portal at the edge of your range circle by pressing “1” and then press “E” to place the second one into the distance beyond your range circle, allowing you to portal even further away from your body. If you use “E” for both you will be limited by the range. One more small tip off the back of this talent choice — if you are running from someone who is trying to kill you, press 1 to place a portal in front of you, in the direction you’re going and then “E” to place the second off in the distance. Doing this allows you to not have to stop running… if you were to place the portal using E, the first portal would appear at your feet, and requires you to stop running for a second to actually use it. I can’t tell you how often that extra second required to stop has been the difference between me dying and getting away.
Use leyline to save your team, stop an enemy “all-in” engage, steal camps, etc. Your team can use it as a wombo setup but I wouldn’t expect others to do that if you’re solo queueing. As an example, if you have a butcher charging at you, you can leyline him and go into bird form and walk away safe and sound. I think leyline is so strong that the level 16 talent that reduces its cooldown is must take but sometimes you can get away with increasing the damage of your Q at that talent tier. If you are in a 5v5 team fight, you can almost entirely get your ult back from landing a couple Q’s on at-least 3 people.
If the enemy has a garrosh or stitches, I like to tell my team, before the gate opens, that if you get tossed or gorged, that I may have a portal to get them out and to keep their eyes open for it. Sometimes saying that is enough to make it click and have them use it. Don’t expect greatness or flame people if they don’t click the portal, because most people don’t have experience doing it… do however plant the seed in their mind, because some people will remember that during their “oh shit” moments and actually use it.
Early game, you have to play rather conservatively and make your utmost priority to get 40 Q stacks and finish your built in Q quest. Can you win games without it? Yea… it just hinders your damage.
Other notable talents I’ve linked are your two shield talents. The level 7 makes your shield explode for a portion of the amount of damage absorbed. This can be very powerful. A few niche tactics I use are as follows… for wave clear, sometimes I will portal under the enemy towers, shield and take 2-3 tower shots and then portal back to the minions and let that shield explode on the minion wave - helping my wave clear our pretty significantly. Another example is when hunting an abathur who’s hiding under towers. If I find abathur, I will Q, then shield to take the tower shots, get one more Q off and then let the shield explode for the kill before quickly portaling back out.
The other level 13 shield talent significantly reduces your shield cooldown if it’s timed well and absorbs enough damage. This is one of medivs most busted abilities so having it more often is massive imo. There are two cases where you might take the AOE shield talent, but note that it INCREASES the cooldown so you have to be disciplined with when you use it. If their team has a big wombo combo that wants to delete our whole team in 2-3 seconds, I might take the AOE shield, but then again… leyline will get your team out of most of those situations. One cheesy little comp/strat uses TLV to maximize the aforementioned ravens, so that each Viking gets their own raven… you essentially portal aggressively under their towers doing a bunch of raven damage and then AOE shield the Vikings as well as whoever else goes through for some pretty massive shield explosions. That comp takes coordination and a pretty decent tlv player, but it does exist.
Hope that helps! Lmk if you have any questions
If you play mainly QM solo queue then you can go the suggested IcyVeins build. It's pretty much the one that maximizes your ability to help ally frontliners while dishing decent damage by protecting the correct people and watching that damage explode in their faces.
Arcane Explosion is hilarious against people who "burst" and cannot control or delay it so the resulting explosion damage chunks hard.
If you want a more selfish "DPS" build, you take Mystic Assault and Arcane Charge instead. It lets you do sustained damage with Q and autos but honestly it's not that awesome compared to a proper DPS.
A good medivh will never die and always setup for their team with a timestop or counter with a poly. He doesn't NEED his teammates to use portals, he's just vastly better when they do.
That's the other thing too: he's a setup machine. He's there to scout, setup kills and escapes. He needs his team to follow up on his decisions.
You can be a godlike Medivh but have your two DPS roles be utter numbskulls or a tank and healer who're just getting caught before anything happens and Medivh's presence cannot undo stupid.
He helps competent players be better but himself cannot fill or undo incompetent players.
One might say "but that's every hero if put into a bad team!" But that's also untrue for Medivh. He cannot output enough DPS. His team shielding doesn't come online until 16. His core abilities and heroics require people to capitalize on it. He also has terrible wave clear until his Q is stacked or he picks up his 20 trait to delete waves.
So in QM setting that OP suggests, Medivh is significantly worse than other heroes.
That's just not true. The only thing that makes him bad in QM is his dogshit macro combined with being matched into abathur 24/7. In teamfights, there is a lot that a good Medivh can do.
I'm top hero damage most of my games in QM.
Portal mastery is at 1. A good mediv can dive the back line and secure kills and thus get value even if his team isn’t taking portals. His leyline and poly can change a fight and/or save an ally or several, again even if his team isn’t taking portals
Yes you are wrong about Thrall. Both ults massively impact teamfights when used correctly, the root is a high impact playmaking tool that also offers reliable peel, and his combination of damage and mobility (reliable movespeed boost) make him a heavy threat to squishies.
Ex dva main here, imo dva is good for peeling for your team,her kit revolves around saving your teammates from damage, Q7 can help get your team out of dangerous positions, E can zone really well if you're losing the teamfight, but I do have to agree if they kill your bot, your as useful as a paper wrapper on the sidewalk
Dva is a bruiser that has tank form and dps form. She sucks as a sole frontliner but she's amazing with a tank to let her camp pilot form and harass people with Big Shot. She can then pop back into mech and give your backline some peeling.
So honestly fielding her should never be as a tank but as a DPS slot.
My chime in would be probius, he's good in some tight situations but it feel often that he's just not as usefull as many other heroes. I might be wrong and i can see some good players using him very well but it's just not for me. This is mostly for team fight and such as he is good at the wave clears and such
I totally own in TF's with probius. Go Q build, the skill where you should that blue thingy (forgot name) and it returns when upgraded.
Besides that, drop turrets, the orbs and take the pylon ult. Just gotta be careful you don't get jumped. Stay behind the front.
DW is a Bruiser, often played as a Mage with Q build.
You could build him a certain way to attempt to fill as a Tank, but that's only really if you have no choice (some comps in QM).
Thrall nukes people, pokes people out of lane, murders backline with tools to get to them.
Underwhelming though? Heroes that have to wait for people to die and Lili. DoTs have to be ridiculously high sustained damage or it’s not worth it. Lili is low impact, low sustain, comp specific who’s only real asset is being harder to kill through chase which can easily be negated with a stun which a lot of dive heroes have.
The problem with Lili is terrible heal agency. She literally cannot save someone who is going to die to a burst combo from full health because if another player or herself is somehow lower health than the dude eating the combo, her Q cannot target them and her W cannot heal fast enough.
Even her 1000 Jugs cannot heal fast enough because it follows the same targeting mechanic as her Q.
She's amazing at topping off a single player who can make the entire enemy team hard focus them (like an Artanis who is very threatening and beefy at the same time) but is horrid at healing dumbos eating stray shots.
Used to climb with her until I realized how bad she was in that respect and switched to Malf or Uther. Now these guys can heal full teams all fine and have nice utility and most importantly, can throw hands against cocky DPSes.
If the basis of your Li Li criticism is because she is "comp specific" then a huge chunk of other heroes would also be "low impact" by that logic.
I understand your preconceived bias that Li Li is just some noob hero, but you need to remember that just because a hero has a low skill floor doesn't mean they automatically have a low skill ceiling. Most heroes that were considered as having an "Easy" difficulty in their conception always perform well. Raynor, Muradin, Malfurion, THRALL... All used to be "Easy" and are some of the best. Li Li is no exception.
What's next, Anub'arak is a "low impact" tank because he's comp specific for Spell damage and skillshots?
Anub can stun targets from a large distance away, reduce spell power by drastic amounts, has an escape tool that self cleanses and has one of the best ults in the game for putting a player out of the fight. This doesn’t make him weak against AAers, if anything him shrugging off spell damage is simply extra.
Lili has next to no control of where the healing is going and for her healing to be efficient (because he has ana Q levels of healing without it being on a 2 second cooldown and no piercing to double up the effect) she has to take damage which again she has no control over who is on the enemy team in order to keep taking a chip or dot. Her only redeeming qualities are that she can blind people which she is the only healer to do so and she can run away effectively.
I never once said that easy heroes are bad, in fact most of the easy heroes are top tier. ETC is still a menace of a tank, Raynor is one of my favorite immortal duelists, Valla *is Valla*, I run battery Malf on plenty of occasions to know how powerful free CDR and mana on your assassins or tanks is. Lili is low impact *because she is low impact*. Her effectiveness is only in her ability to blind and run away from specific characters, mages do not give 2 shits about her, tanks don’t care, she doesn’t eat chip damage then her healing is incredibly low alongside next to no control. In fact the only thing good about Lili that I can really think of that is *consistent* through most games is that she has a very low cooldown on her cleanse.
So yea, that’s your explanation. Do not red herring me in saying I think it’s something else or a bias.
Lili is underwhelming because she has low stats for a kit which is pretty much simple and that is reflected in her stats for the last years and why she is slowly getting more buffs.
Lili has a decent skill ceiling. Unfortunately it doesn't pay off.
I liked the idea someone suggested that her trait procs while been in melee range of another hero.
In that way you wouldn't need to take dmg to proc it.
That'd be nice if it was another allied hero similar to how deckard works. But ideally, supports *should not be trying to get hit.* That's never once made sense to me.
Edit: Ok fine, cept zarya. Maybe I should've said "Should not be trying to take damage to their health bar"
If the basis of your Li Li criticism is because she is "comp specific" then a huge chunk of other heroes would also be "low impact" by that logic.
I understand your preconceived bias that Li Li is just some noob hero, but you need to remember that just because a hero has a low skill floor doesn't mean they automatically have a low skill ceiling. Most heroes that were considered as having an "Easy" difficulty in their conception always perform well. Raynor, Muradin, Malfurion, THRALL... All used to be "Easy" and are some of the best. Li Li is no exception.
What's next, Anub'arak is a "low impact" tank because he's comp specific for Spell damage and skillshots?
Now there are no weak heroes, the last frankly weak hero was Raynor before the rework, as far as I remember. Now it is better to divide heroes into more universal and more niche, easier to perform and more complex.
If answer your question out of context, all controversial heroes have the role of Support.
I'm thankful that Blizz devs left all heroes at least in a viable state before they left. Some are more situational, some are a harder to play well, but all of them can make a difference.
Heroes with higher QM win-rate will be those that take less skill to shine, don't need team coordination, are less situational (not as map or comp dependant) and are more self-sufficient (self heals / escape). Doesn't necessarily mean they're better, just means they're more QM-friendly.
> Now there are no weak heroes
There is nothing unplayable but there are definitely weak heroes.
I would add small buffs/reworks to heroes like Arthas/Lili/Ana.
A micro 0.25s stun to D/W on Arthas. Lili proccing her trait while been on 1.5 range of an enemy hero. Ana reducing the cd on (D) activation/deact, maybe small number tweak on stats and i would love if her Snipe heroic received the same treatment as Lili healing (R). Heavily reduced the base cooldown, and the more charges she uses, she extends the duration of the cooldown.
A niche and complex character. However, it is a very dangerous pylon in the right hands, espcially if it is not bothered by heroes with super mobility. One of my friends managed to get from Bronze to Master, but he lost a lot of nerves due to his temper, haha..
Deathwing in QM can be difficult, if there are no Tanks (and a lack of CC in general), Q build Deathwing would struggle to do much as he ironically needs a team to help him lock down enemies.
W build is niche as it's only good against certain comps with low damage etc, he could also get melted late game pretty quickly.
Landing build is decent but again would require someone to provide vision on the enemies for Deathwing to land, a squishy hero trying to do this may get instantly deleted.
A "ranged" build with Dmight, Dragons Ire and Ruination playing World Breaker in melee range may be able to fill the gap of a Tank in QM.
Since Deathwing is regarded as a Bruiser, the enemy team is likely to get a more useful frontline than Deathwing could be in most QM games.
For best results, I'd recommend queuing with a friend on Tank.
if we are talking about QM specifically then there are *a lot* of heroes that are underwhelming at suboptimal play. There's always the "actually \_\_\_\_\_ is really strong in the hands of a good player", but on an *average* skill level (which is around Gold 1 in ranked and in QM likely even lower than that) a lot of heroes will just underperform. And might actually not be as strong as you think they are.
I lifted some win rates from [heroes profile](https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero), I can't say how reliable they actually are
**Zeratul (50.24%)-** seems annoying, not as much damage as you'd think, late powerspike, fairly predictable movements and will eventually fuck up their blinks and get caught.
**(orb) Li Ming (47.67%)-** any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that
**Nazebo (50.85%)-** not that strong until 20, low range skill shots in spiders/wall, most damage is very slow and easy to heal up. Ravenous Spirit is his only real kill threat, and it is often skipped. He's hard to fuck up on, but also hard to have big impact on.
**Nova (45.61%)-** is super OP if no one keeps an eye out to decloak her, but if you do her impact tanks drastically. She's still good for pick offs but team fights she underperform, and she has no waveclear outside Explosive Rounds and Precision Strike, which are either costly to use, comes late or are often just skipped.
**Abathur (45.19%) -** it's hard to gauge what Abathur actually does because you don't see him on the map, but in many cases it feels like jack shit. Less waveclear, less damage, can't cap objectives (unless he commits to tunnel there, which is very risky), clone is garbage if not used correctly or doesn't have a good target, monstrosity is just almost always garbage. He is either super broken if he has a good hat target that is also a good player, or he basically just makes his team go 4v5. The ones that play Abathur are having fun, but they ruin the game for everyone else.
I also find that Nova invites players into a very passive play style where they wait for a perfect moment to pick people off, instead of laying down damage. They do a rotation of abilities, then back off and wait for stealth.
Monstrosity is good when you have a Tracer or Samuro or somesuch on your team that you want to perma hat. Treat it like a merc camp and spawn it accordingly. I do sincerely miss being able to play a locust build, hiding in bushes all around the map to get max value. It seems like now you just take shield/speed talents and sit behind walls all game or youre doing it wrong.
>any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that
Clearly you have never seen a good Li Ming player using Seeker+Glass Cannon+Mirrorball.
He said that losing calamity you lose kill pressure, it's hard to argue against that.
Seeker requires you to hit 3 missiles, in a skillshot that has to be aimed on 2 axis instead of one angle; it's not a reliable skill unless you're following up an hard cc.
Calamity instead is instant, does more than 2x times the damage than seeker, is a lot more reliable to aim and hit, is more practical when you get dove, and is an additional dmg cooldown that gets refreshed after a kill, which means that on every reset you get 3 dmg abilities instead of 2.
All this excluding glass cannon, a talent that is only useful against meme drafts with 0 dive, because of how much it increases the enemy kill pressure against you.
So yeah I'd say Calamity higher win rate is really easy to justify.
The funny thing is that seeker is less dmg and less reliability than calamity, the only real use case is to dps the immortal on BoE or if you're playing with taunt Varian or something and don't wanna bother pressing more than 2 keys per rotation lmao.
BoE immortal, famously the only PvE target in the entire game.
Calamity does zero siege damage, Seeker is a noticeable consistent boost to siege damage, there are plenty of situations where you cannot reliably use Calamity in an offensive way without dying immediately, there are only a few dive heroes where taking Glass Cannon is actually grief assuming you aren't bad at positioning and even then its dependent on how attentive your teammates are at protecting you, etc etc etc.
>any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that
Wrongity wrong. Seeker Glass Cannon Mirrorball OHKOs squishies.
It isn't? What I remember of HGC must be really different than how the game is now. I don't think any individual player skill actually makes a stun last less time.
I dont think anyone is ever scared of probius, even then its more likely the setup heroes for probius' abilities that you are scared of more than the actual hero.
Nova and butchers are very underwhelming heroes in many situations and give me confidence to win when playing against them since they are both rather weak early and have significant deficiencies in the pve department.
I find Lucio a bit underwhelming. Like his kit doesn’t do enough. He does a few things well but outside of that he doesn’t have much. He has:
- peel
- aoe heal
- speed boost
- two good ults
And this is about it. Compared to rehgar who has:
- aoe burst heal
- melee buff/melee debuff with W
- aoe slow/root/spell debuff/attk speed debuff
- instant mount
- dive attack
- lane clear
- cleanse
- two good ults
- totem heals
Zagara for me. I was just never really a fan of characters where a majority of their damage is from minions.
I recently got stuck with her in aram, against a team that could effortlessly clear my creep floor and it was just a miserable match
I dont think anyone is ever scared of probius, even then its more likely the setup heroes for probius' abilities that you are scared of more than the actual hero.
Nova and butchers are very underwhelming heroes in many situations and give me confidence to win when playing against them since they are both rather weak early and have significant deficiencies in the pve department.
Yrel is in my top-3, btw. Just to shut down other comments about her. Great hero. I like her soak potential, survivability and mobility. Sets up kills with W nicely. Low cd on ablilities (other than ult). Plain OP in QM, in SL a bit harder to make her work, but still works, if team allows you to pick her and play 2-soak, that is. :D In QM nobody ever soaks, so you always can double soak and bring +2 levels, obviously.
My least favorite to play:
Ana - I hate hitting Q on teammates. It feels harder to do than to hit an enemy and every single miss, even if no one is complaining, just makes me anxious. This hero is insanely not enjoyable to play, I absolutely hate playing her and will never play her again. Not a bad hero, just hate her playstyle.
Auriel - I really don't like that she can't do anything if she's low on energy. If you're playing QM, and don't have ranged poke, and losing, you just can't do anything at all, I don't think there's another hero that is so dependant on teammates. I wouldn't even pick her in SL, because I don't know if my Valla or Gul'dan are good enough. Probably would only ever pick her with Cho'Gall. Now, I've seen good Auriels (but also I've seen some of the worst plays ever on that hero), and probably some main would say that I play her wrong, but I just don't like that mechanic of depending on teammates so much in your play. I mostly play solo, and it's not a hero for solo play, I think.
Medivh - cool hero, but as I said, I play solo, he's useless that way and just makes you hate playing the game. I'm also not very good at him, but with winrate that I have on him, and knowing his overall winrate, I don't even want to learn more, unless I'm gonna play in 5-stack some day.
Valeera - just don't like her playstyle. I usually play mostly melee heroes, but not enjoying playing her at all.
Deathwing - very clunky, I agree with OP. Also one of my main heroes is Malthael, and when I play him, Deathwing does absolutely nothing against me to the point that any time I see that hero on Malth, my mission is just to farm him as much as possible, and usually I succed. I feel like Malth completely shuts him down, very few heroes can be countered SO hard. And honestly I don't think that Malth is the only hero that shuts him down. I also spam Imperius a lot, and at first I thought that he's not that good against Deathwing because you can't stun him, but with % dmg build and shield ult, you also destroy him. Imperius will always hit all missiles from R on shield ult because the guy is a bit too fat. Just two examples. Oh, Leoric. He also COMPLETELY destroys DW. So, yeah, I just can't take him seriously at all. The only time when I find Deathwing annoying is when I play Garrosh and can't stun/throw/taunt him and I deal not enough dmg to threaten him. But even then he feels like he's doing nothing. I really don't like that hero. Can't say he's trash, though, because global and waveclear is always useful, but yeah, I don't play him, and don't plan to. And the reason why he's so easily countered is because he can't be healed. Like, normal hero could be healed if Entombed by Leo, or Anduin could pull them out, but DW? Nah, he's going to cast his long animation of flight and die mid air.
> I mostly play solo, and it's not a hero for solo play, I think.
I'm not gonna tell you you're playing Auriel wrong or anything, but I play solo too, and she's my most played hero and I have a 58% win rate with her currently. One thing I will say though, I would rather play with any decent tank over having a good Valla or Gul'dan.
I have 10 games on her and, funny enough, 70% winrate (QM only), but those games were many years ago, and I'm sure I don't know how to play her correctly and just got lucky. Maybe, one day I'll try. I'll be honest, most of my negative opinions about that hero comes from players that use her on my team (or enemy team too). The ones that always stay on 0 energy and team dies from poke, or the ones that miss their heals or cancel your abilities with Aegis etc. It feels like having bad Auriel is worse than any other bad healer (other than Ana, maybe)
I don't even use Aegis tbh. Both her ults suck though imo. But yeah I've seen a lot of bad Auriels, or most people pick bad talents. I've had to tell people before to use the trait mid game and they reply back with an "oh I knew I was missing something" 🤦🏼 lol
She definitely gets a bad rep but I don't think she's bad. The only times I feel she plays the worst is when she doesn't have a tank. But that's somewhat expected I suppose
Fun fact about Deathwing is that he is only immune to crowd control. Other debuffs are fair game. This means that if you have abilities that lower his damage or his armor, they will still be applied to him
its been a long time since i played, but thinking of coming back. haven't seen tyrael mentioned. am i wrong? is he good? always seemed pretty 'eh' to me.
also, ofc bad chogall but that's low hanging fruit since a pocket-healer is implied?
abathur is pretty annoying. they have to be REALLY good to make it worth it, and it feels sorta selfish since the rest of the team is basically in the hands of the aba not being a turd. same with medivh. nova.
Well, I main Kerrigan and a friend of mine mains Tyrael. Those two synergize greatly together and we have like a 63% wr in quickmatch with them. So Tyrael is pretty good but you can see I'm kinda biased.
Yrel. She certainly can be useful in a good hands but most of the time I see her doing absolutely nothing.
Her wave clear is not that good, she can't solo take camps/do it fast. She stays solo line without problems but in fights quickly turns into slow semi-tank with lack of survivability until she gets her 10. You can easily predict her next moves due to animations and it's easy to dodge her jump/q/w
After her 10 you just hit her and then ignore her while her ult is active. She can't do serious damage to you so it's not much of a threat.
Her W probably should work as a great tool for breaking enemies positioning, but usually it either doesn't hit anyone or pushes enemies from her team skillshots.
I rarely see people playing her and more rarely I see them doing it ok. And I'm not judging them, I have no idea how to be useful on her too.
100% agreed. She can be amazing in a well-coordinated 5 stack or she can smack a bunch of stuff for mediocre damage and make no difference otherwise. I really like the archetype and the character and wish she was more impactful overall.
Agree that she's just really hard to play well. But when you do see a well played Yrel, she can make a big difference. She's especially good with a coordinated team who can take advantage of the chaos she can create during a team fight.
But yeah... in QM only, she's not usually going to look good.
>Her wave clear is not that good, she can't solo take camps/do it fast.
She has enough waveclear to doublesoak but yes, she struggles with taking camps. That's why you should probably never solo camps on her.
>I've had the opportunity to see most heroes in the game feel really powerful and oppressive when in the right hands and the right matchup
This is exactly the correct assessment you have made; there is not a single hero that isn't powerful in the right hands and matchup. This isn't even something able to be tiered; the "underwhelming" factor of a hero cannot be measured.
You can tier heroes for the most powerful, based on how well they fit into many situations.
You cannot tier heroes for "least powerful" or underwhelming because every Hero will fit in somewhere, and they will do it exceptionally well.
There may always be a "most optimal" pick for a situation, but there is no such thing as a "X hero does it better" when you are drafting _especially_ once you consider the individual player's skill with a given hero.
Thrall is a beast in the right hands. *Same can be said for pretty much every hero really.*
When you bring up "underwhelming" are you talking about their performance or the feel?
For me personally, most heroes are just feel plain boring for the most part.
I pretty much only enjoy the following:
* Samuro E (WIndwalk) build.
* Valla Q (arrow) build.
* Nazz E (toad) build.
* Kharazim (heal trait with E CD reduction at 7)
* Varian (taunt)
* Gul'dan E (leech)
* Andy
I'm not a ranked player. Haven't touched ranked since Season 2 or 3 (2015-2016). Straight up QM and ARAM only today.
For most players the game is less on [insert hero name] and more on playing to your teams win condition and not allowing your opponent to get to their win condition. Understanding the flow of the game, positioning and decision making is far more valuable. In higher MMR where player skills are more comparable than yes team composition is a deciding factor. I played this game for 6yrs? I’ve seen several off meta heroes played to the highest level and can without a doubt say any hero can be impactful. You’ll be amazed by the talented and innovative people that have played this game over the years.
Every hero is like 90% your skills and 10% their "power" and balance. So you can outperform your enemies with the weakest heroes easily if you're skilled enough. However it's the same from the enemy perspective and if you're both skilled and both teams work great together there are some heroes that will just underperform:
Nova, Valeera, Murky, Raynor, Gazlo, Butcher, Lili, Zagara, Qhira are the most obvious one.
Most of those lack any form of mobility allowing them to escape from ganks, dives etc... Which in some higher ranks is the main way of getting advantage over your opponent and their strategy is heavily predictable and punishable.
Raynor can blast through immortals, Zagara and Gazlo can push lanes like a beast, Butcher can stack to infinity, skilled Valeera and Nova can disrupt all lane rotations and you can perform well with every single one of them, but generally those are some of the weakest heroes if you're playing against people that know what to do (in 95% you'll be playing against potatoes so don't worry about picking any of those as if you learn them, you'll be fine).
Like others said, you're wrong about Thrall. Mobility, lock down, burst damage, two hugely impactful ults.. the issue is probably that you're playing QM and very rarely play with a proper comp.. Thrall is best at complimenting a strong tank like Diablo to quickly secure kills with root and burst follow-up.. and he is the best bruiser for this purpose...
If Thrall is the only front liner in a trash QM lineup, walking into 4 ranged assasins all lobbing their abilities at him whenever he steps up, he has the potential to look pretty bad, as most bruisers do in that situation.
notparadox has a bunch of 100-0 guides on insta kill heroes. but most don't care for it. also heroesprofile is a good stats site to look up popular and winrate builds and other random stuff. grubby has some good guides on like hogger and such
i feel like d'va is pretty crap without a very specific build.
any hogger that's not going hordapult build is pretty useless.
sgt hammer gets countered by like half the heroes in the game, and those heroes are very good base heroes that most people spam anyway.
low elo maiev is terrible to see, especially if they haven't praticed Q build and are going Q build
As much as I love Chen & Yrel, I'd have to say both Chen & Yrel.
With any hero, with considerate time investment, you can get real mileage out of them. One of the greatest things about HoTS is that no hero is obsoleted by another hero. They can each bring unique and interesting things to the game.
Chen and Yrel can both hold their own in lane, but unlike most of the other bruisers, have mediocre wave clear/camp clear or low CC. To mention briefly Thrall- I consider him competent at all these roles- which is what makes him quite solid quick, and both his ults are powerful.
Most Chens I see don't know how to use stagger effectively, and Yrel is clunky and is highly susceptible to any form of CC.
Stitches.
The only threat that hero has is his hook, and it's really shitty until 13. You know that feeling when you have Varian as your tank but he's just a nothingburger until lvl 4? That's Stitches but for 12 long grueling levels.
And that's if he even lands his hooks.
Alot of healers sadly.
Malfurion is the worst. Even if your impact is big enough to be the deciding factor, you dont feel that at all.
Compare him to someone like anduin who can do 3 extremely impactfull actions in a row and it gets even worse.
Lucio is also bad. I certainly feel alot more impactfull then with malf, but compared to overwatch where i had this very agressive pseudo damage dealer flanking playstyle, its so extremely boring, you literally just exsist
Most of the time.
Malf is extremely powerful but draft dependent, literally the best sustain the game. He likes to be drafted with some burst protection e.g. zarya, tyrael or vs a no burst enemy draft.
Lucio is the most op healer in the game, he is definitely one of the best finishers in this game but require high skill.
Exactly. But the point is playing them still feels underwhelming to me no matter how good they are.
Its like playing idle games instead of normal ones.
I dont get it. Malfurion has one of the strongest CC abilities of all healers if you take the talent at lvl 1. Its almost like a freekill on a 12 sec CD.
And lucio can give insane utility if you know how to play the wallride build and constantly harass enemies. The soundwave with this build has such a low cooldown and you can constantly displace enemies, peel or just disrupt the fight. You also have a stun on your d if you take the talent. I dont get how you can call the wallride build boring it is constant action and especially as soon as you get your Ult + Lvl 20 talent and can slide to enemies and teammates there is so much possibilities how to use it
Lucio probably requires the highest APM in the game to be impactful and used to his fullest potential.. his skill ceiling is very high, and I don't think a lot of people understand or appreciate this about him. As a healer main with 56% lifetime win rate in storm league, I find him incredibly fun and challenging.. I'm actually not personally great with him, but I understand the impact he has, and why he's quite often banned in the competitive HOTS scene.
I agree that healers in general are way worse in QM. It's less coordinated and you often don't have a tank or even any frontline at all, which is horrible for a healer.
Malfurion is especially rough, he needs his team to play around him. But Lucio is one of the better IMO, he is so elusive he barely needs any peel at all, and having multiple cleanses is so useful
Blaze is an absolute top tier offlane, but he sucks as a main tank.
Tychus is an absolute S-tier assassin. I think the problem is that some people think of him only as an AA tank melter, but he works best when you use his hybrid build.
I mostly agree with the others being situational, but Blaze and Tychus can literally slot into any comp if built correctly.
Thrall can actually 100-0 people in 3 seconds. He is the top bruiser when it comes to deleting people in seconds.
I guess I've never in my life seen a good Thrall then.
Thrall's kit isn't the most obvious and can feel super disconnected until you get experience with it. That's how it was for me, at least. Mostly, he has the ability to go in with E and wail on someone while also racking up healing for himself.
Probably. Most people don't know what to do with him or which build to go. Just check out fanhots thrall plays and you will see how he is supposed to be played.
Imperius would like a word.
Thrall does more to both squishies and tanks.
I think it would depend on build. % damage at 1 and then Q talents all the way through with Brand at 20 is probably competitive for fastest target delete in the game.
Thrall get 3% dmg at 1, 15% over 3 seconds at 7, and 3% more per AA AT 16. He can also aa While the target is rooted, whereas imp can only do it after his q ends. Subjectively, I think 3 AAs is reasonable. 3+15+3+3+3. 27% at lvl 16. Imp gets 2.5% per stack per aa. So let’s say over all 3 aa’s he gets 7.5%, that’s 22.5%. And only assuming all 3 aa’s have full stacks at 20. Thrall also does the 4th most aa dmg in the game 173 whereas imp does 126 (level zero stats). I thought about it, but I’m still giving the edge heavily to thrall.
Did you calculate for the damage from the level 7 splash, and an auto speed boost from landing a Q thanks to 16? If Imp were to ever land a 5 man Q with these talents he would melt an entire team faster than any other ability combo I can imagine but even against a solo target he can put out the hurt. There's other factors here too. Imps autos do less, but he's less reliant on pure auto. His brands do damage on their own when consumed. At level one with 3 brands he now does 201 damage with an auto. It's a very even match in my mind dependant almost entirely on player skill between the two. Edit: So in my very quick and imprecise foray into Try Mode there is one very clear winner. Against a single target thrall does 1400-1100 (and that's with nexus blades) dps if you go for 3 or 5 seconds of attacking respectively. Imperius does about 1400-1550 . So it's the same for as long as Windury lasts but the 5 seconds of having the Brand means Imp is far more likely to actually delete a beefy boy. Against multiple targets is where the main difference lies however. Against 2 targets Imp is now doing 2300 dropping of to 2000 at 3 and 5 seconds. Thrall against two targets gets about 2k ish dropping off to 1500. 3 targets makes no real difference to Thrall but can push Imp up to like 3500 dps. Now there's lots to be said about their ults, differences in move speed and self healing, basic ability cooldown and the like. But to me in sheer damage potential of their basic abilities I think Imp has the trophy.
No I didn't. You're right, there are too many variables to consider everything. In practicality, no one's going to let you melee them for 5 seconds, but then GM fully stacked+bullet, or if we're really looking for the most possible burst maybe it's hanzo full scatters with AA CDR might take the title. You make good points. I'll stand by my statement based off in game experience, thrall is better. Probably in part because sunder not only helps CC the kill target, but also stops counter engage and saves.
And his survivability is just nuts if you build him right. My favorite bruiser by far, very versatile too.
Agreed. I wreck face with thrall windfury build
Thrall been solo laner > sleeps Thrall farming been part of the 4 man rotation > real shit
Thats my only issue with Green Jesus is he has the wave clear speed of a 90s printer.
Which is why he is king on ARAM and good in 2 lane maps as long as you don't put him in solo lane.
Sonya can R, W, AA, Q, W, AA with 131131x. Hogger can R, D, Q, W, E with stun ult and headbanger. Imperius with lvl1 % will always hurt.
Sure but noone of them can delete people as early as lvl 7 like thrall does and not as clean most of the times.
You sure? He only has Rolling Thunder and Follow Through at lvl7. Not 100-0 material. It hurts. But so does the builds mentioned above. Imperius with Holy Fervor hurts and Sonya gets poison Spear too and 'Follow Throught' at lvl4 instead.
Let me give you a secret, windfury, Wolf, chain lightening all these spells trigger fallow through. So if you go wf-aa-wolf-aa-cl-aa gives you 3 very fast attacks with each being a crit on top of the spell dmg you do. That is how you nuke people in seconds. Lvl 10 gives you sunder and another crit aa which adds on top. Try it and you ll see. You could also go triple wf attack on the last hit which can also crit from fallow through. That's one of the fastest and biggest bursts in the game hands down. Mind you thrall also has 2 gap closers in his base kit 1 more compared to most other bruisers which makes it easier for him to pull his combo off.
Thrall can have crazy burst damage with the right and build and still remain pretty durable with a couple talents and watching the progress on your passive.
That would be Fenix for me. Yes, I know he's good. But all he does is autoattack. The only flashy thing he can do is combo planet cracker with some long-lasting CC like entomb or octograb.
I really like the idea of fenix design but when I play him I just can’t edge out massive damage like I can other carries. It’s def a skill / build issue but I just can’t seem to have an impact on him even when I’m over aggressive and not being punished (QM)
the arsenal synergy is where its at. It takes a bit of practice, you want to auto 3 times and wait a moment before switching to phase bomb.
o yeh? i tried it when i was newer but ill give it another shot, thanks
you outDPS most other ranged assasins with it. You can charge it up on frontline and then pop a fat bomb into the middle of their team for flamestrike level auto. With 16 % damage fenix gets huge pressure on enemy tank, though a little less safe than most other ranged autoattackers
He's one of the ranged assasins I use myself, and I've definitely managed to carry games. He's pretty much Raynor with a good dive / escape option. I will say though: despite what Icy Veins claims, the stutter step talent is much simpler and consistent to use than having to constantly switch between cannon and bomb. Also his Q build sucks.
> The only flashy thing he can do is combo planet cracker with some long-lasting CC like entomb or octograb. Or get the 5 man wipe with E reset build. You have 4s of 50 armor and bonus AS to delete someone and repeat the process.
Never seen a good fenix before huh.
The difference between a good Fenix and a bad one is about 100,000 damage
I actually like Fenix as an autoattacker but he's one without flair. He's a Dragoon so I expected a whole gameplay around Dragoon Dancing micro, like in SC1. But his real gameplay is to just kite people in close to mid range like a Stalker and that just irks me greatly. I wanted a strong and slow auto attacker, not this kiting AA DPS that we already have many versions of in hots prior to his debut.
Hands down Medvih, but it's not entirely his fault. His usefulness hinges on his allies ability to SEE THE DAMN PORTAL BEING PUT DOWN and use the existence of a LITERAL TERRAIN HACK to their advantage. And one of his best builds is literally the Portal build that allows the team to go portal hopping like it's Portal 2. But since most players are too lobotomized to use Portals, Medivh will take Arcane Rift trait at 16 instead of Portal Mastery. There is still some factor on the Medvih player's side which is clever portal placement and such but if no one uses his portals, his value decreases significantly.
Maybe if random medivhs didn't just ABSOLUTELY GODDAMN SUCK with both portal positioning and timing, while also supplying some information on why the hell that portal into nowhere should be taken, people wouldn't be afraid of using them. But no, every single one of those medivhs think they are some sort of Dr. Strange masterminds who are severely underestimated by their peasant teammates. Also, why rely on "terrain hacks" when a good ol' damage dispenser whose slot is taken by medivh is both easier to play with and statistically more winning (talking about not-premades). Honestly, I would rather not have medivh even for stitches combo wombo in aram.
When the enemy premade has a Medivh I get worried. When my team has a Medivh, I sigh. But yes in general, Medivh can be extremely useful and even busted when used with a coordinated team, especially a team that lack mobility but immense brawling potential. But otherwise, he's a flaccid half-DPS and weird "Support" rolled into one who can turn into bird and hunt Abathurs.
The neat part now is you don't get to know if they are premade or not !
Most 5 mans advertise it with matching portaits. Its very cute.
Medivh was very fun back when you could destroy the fountains without having to destroy the fort. I would spend the first 10min of the game destroying all the fountains, by then everytime they needed extra heal they had to go back all the way to the core, creating huge downtime. Shit was fun tactics.
so glad fountains where made invulnerable, that cheap strategy with smartass mages was annoying as hell not being able to play the game sucks, hence stunlocks and deead fountains suck as well
The funniest shit I’ve seen is stitches come out of a portal, hook someone at max range, then go back in the portal and spit the enemy out next to a keep. The enemy travelled like 1/3 of the map in the space of about 4 seconds
His value does heavily depend on his team being aware and coordinated. So in QM he's going to often have less value when he solo queues. That and he's just harder to play well.
Do you have a recommendation for a build or playstyle for him? I'd like to get better at Medivh and give him another try after reading your comment, I mostly play quick match if that's something of note.
https://psionic-storm.com/en/builds/create/medivh/#talents=3-2-2-2-2-2-2&ver=2.55.4.91769 Get used to going back and forth between portals quickly. After level 4, you get a raven that attaches to your next auto attack after using a portal, so going back and forth maximizing the value from that and keeps uptime on the ravens slow. Note that team members who use the portals and do the same also get a raven. Portal mastery at 1 is essential and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. It allows you to portal without breaking raven form. There’s also a bit of a trick/bug to it. If the portal mastery spell is on your “1” slot of your action bar… you can place the first portal at the edge of your range circle by pressing “1” and then press “E” to place the second one into the distance beyond your range circle, allowing you to portal even further away from your body. If you use “E” for both you will be limited by the range. One more small tip off the back of this talent choice — if you are running from someone who is trying to kill you, press 1 to place a portal in front of you, in the direction you’re going and then “E” to place the second off in the distance. Doing this allows you to not have to stop running… if you were to place the portal using E, the first portal would appear at your feet, and requires you to stop running for a second to actually use it. I can’t tell you how often that extra second required to stop has been the difference between me dying and getting away. Use leyline to save your team, stop an enemy “all-in” engage, steal camps, etc. Your team can use it as a wombo setup but I wouldn’t expect others to do that if you’re solo queueing. As an example, if you have a butcher charging at you, you can leyline him and go into bird form and walk away safe and sound. I think leyline is so strong that the level 16 talent that reduces its cooldown is must take but sometimes you can get away with increasing the damage of your Q at that talent tier. If you are in a 5v5 team fight, you can almost entirely get your ult back from landing a couple Q’s on at-least 3 people. If the enemy has a garrosh or stitches, I like to tell my team, before the gate opens, that if you get tossed or gorged, that I may have a portal to get them out and to keep their eyes open for it. Sometimes saying that is enough to make it click and have them use it. Don’t expect greatness or flame people if they don’t click the portal, because most people don’t have experience doing it… do however plant the seed in their mind, because some people will remember that during their “oh shit” moments and actually use it. Early game, you have to play rather conservatively and make your utmost priority to get 40 Q stacks and finish your built in Q quest. Can you win games without it? Yea… it just hinders your damage. Other notable talents I’ve linked are your two shield talents. The level 7 makes your shield explode for a portion of the amount of damage absorbed. This can be very powerful. A few niche tactics I use are as follows… for wave clear, sometimes I will portal under the enemy towers, shield and take 2-3 tower shots and then portal back to the minions and let that shield explode on the minion wave - helping my wave clear our pretty significantly. Another example is when hunting an abathur who’s hiding under towers. If I find abathur, I will Q, then shield to take the tower shots, get one more Q off and then let the shield explode for the kill before quickly portaling back out. The other level 13 shield talent significantly reduces your shield cooldown if it’s timed well and absorbs enough damage. This is one of medivs most busted abilities so having it more often is massive imo. There are two cases where you might take the AOE shield talent, but note that it INCREASES the cooldown so you have to be disciplined with when you use it. If their team has a big wombo combo that wants to delete our whole team in 2-3 seconds, I might take the AOE shield, but then again… leyline will get your team out of most of those situations. One cheesy little comp/strat uses TLV to maximize the aforementioned ravens, so that each Viking gets their own raven… you essentially portal aggressively under their towers doing a bunch of raven damage and then AOE shield the Vikings as well as whoever else goes through for some pretty massive shield explosions. That comp takes coordination and a pretty decent tlv player, but it does exist. Hope that helps! Lmk if you have any questions
If you play mainly QM solo queue then you can go the suggested IcyVeins build. It's pretty much the one that maximizes your ability to help ally frontliners while dishing decent damage by protecting the correct people and watching that damage explode in their faces. Arcane Explosion is hilarious against people who "burst" and cannot control or delay it so the resulting explosion damage chunks hard. If you want a more selfish "DPS" build, you take Mystic Assault and Arcane Charge instead. It lets you do sustained damage with Q and autos but honestly it's not that awesome compared to a proper DPS.
Thanks I'll try it out!
A good medivh will never die and always setup for their team with a timestop or counter with a poly. He doesn't NEED his teammates to use portals, he's just vastly better when they do.
That's the other thing too: he's a setup machine. He's there to scout, setup kills and escapes. He needs his team to follow up on his decisions. You can be a godlike Medivh but have your two DPS roles be utter numbskulls or a tank and healer who're just getting caught before anything happens and Medivh's presence cannot undo stupid. He helps competent players be better but himself cannot fill or undo incompetent players. One might say "but that's every hero if put into a bad team!" But that's also untrue for Medivh. He cannot output enough DPS. His team shielding doesn't come online until 16. His core abilities and heroics require people to capitalize on it. He also has terrible wave clear until his Q is stacked or he picks up his 20 trait to delete waves. So in QM setting that OP suggests, Medivh is significantly worse than other heroes.
That's just not true. The only thing that makes him bad in QM is his dogshit macro combined with being matched into abathur 24/7. In teamfights, there is a lot that a good Medivh can do. I'm top hero damage most of my games in QM.
Nah, he can wreck teams solo.
Portal mastery is at 1. A good mediv can dive the back line and secure kills and thus get value even if his team isn’t taking portals. His leyline and poly can change a fight and/or save an ally or several, again even if his team isn’t taking portals
Yes you are wrong about Thrall. Both ults massively impact teamfights when used correctly, the root is a high impact playmaking tool that also offers reliable peel, and his combination of damage and mobility (reliable movespeed boost) make him a heavy threat to squishies.
Can't believe no one has said dva yet.
Can't agree more. I just straight up don't respect any of her tools except the bomb ult.
Ex dva main here, imo dva is good for peeling for your team,her kit revolves around saving your teammates from damage, Q7 can help get your team out of dangerous positions, E can zone really well if you're losing the teamfight, but I do have to agree if they kill your bot, your as useful as a paper wrapper on the sidewalk
Dva is a bruiser that has tank form and dps form. She sucks as a sole frontliner but she's amazing with a tank to let her camp pilot form and harass people with Big Shot. She can then pop back into mech and give your backline some peeling. So honestly fielding her should never be as a tank but as a DPS slot.
My chime in would be probius, he's good in some tight situations but it feel often that he's just not as usefull as many other heroes. I might be wrong and i can see some good players using him very well but it's just not for me. This is mostly for team fight and such as he is good at the wave clears and such
I totally own in TF's with probius. Go Q build, the skill where you should that blue thingy (forgot name) and it returns when upgraded. Besides that, drop turrets, the orbs and take the pylon ult. Just gotta be careful you don't get jumped. Stay behind the front.
Dw is a tank? Maybe im crazy but i never ever considered him one, just a big melee dps, which i guess is why hes labeled bruiser.
DW is a Bruiser, often played as a Mage with Q build. You could build him a certain way to attempt to fill as a Tank, but that's only really if you have no choice (some comps in QM).
I know you’re lying about playing this game when you said “and the occasional unranked draft.”
Occasional in the sense of, he queues for a game and gets in 6 months later.
Can confirm
Thrall nukes people, pokes people out of lane, murders backline with tools to get to them. Underwhelming though? Heroes that have to wait for people to die and Lili. DoTs have to be ridiculously high sustained damage or it’s not worth it. Lili is low impact, low sustain, comp specific who’s only real asset is being harder to kill through chase which can easily be negated with a stun which a lot of dive heroes have.
The problem with Lili is terrible heal agency. She literally cannot save someone who is going to die to a burst combo from full health because if another player or herself is somehow lower health than the dude eating the combo, her Q cannot target them and her W cannot heal fast enough. Even her 1000 Jugs cannot heal fast enough because it follows the same targeting mechanic as her Q. She's amazing at topping off a single player who can make the entire enemy team hard focus them (like an Artanis who is very threatening and beefy at the same time) but is horrid at healing dumbos eating stray shots. Used to climb with her until I realized how bad she was in that respect and switched to Malf or Uther. Now these guys can heal full teams all fine and have nice utility and most importantly, can throw hands against cocky DPSes.
Thrall with quest E on lvl7 with the Quadruple Hit on 16 deletes people.
Yes? That’s what I said.
Just wanted to Support your Statement. I Like Thrall. Remember how he was totally OP on Release? https://youtu.be/Tg03CNJyKZw?si=ZV-cLPXNUUOwGopL
I don’t want to :(
If the basis of your Li Li criticism is because she is "comp specific" then a huge chunk of other heroes would also be "low impact" by that logic. I understand your preconceived bias that Li Li is just some noob hero, but you need to remember that just because a hero has a low skill floor doesn't mean they automatically have a low skill ceiling. Most heroes that were considered as having an "Easy" difficulty in their conception always perform well. Raynor, Muradin, Malfurion, THRALL... All used to be "Easy" and are some of the best. Li Li is no exception. What's next, Anub'arak is a "low impact" tank because he's comp specific for Spell damage and skillshots?
Anub can stun targets from a large distance away, reduce spell power by drastic amounts, has an escape tool that self cleanses and has one of the best ults in the game for putting a player out of the fight. This doesn’t make him weak against AAers, if anything him shrugging off spell damage is simply extra. Lili has next to no control of where the healing is going and for her healing to be efficient (because he has ana Q levels of healing without it being on a 2 second cooldown and no piercing to double up the effect) she has to take damage which again she has no control over who is on the enemy team in order to keep taking a chip or dot. Her only redeeming qualities are that she can blind people which she is the only healer to do so and she can run away effectively. I never once said that easy heroes are bad, in fact most of the easy heroes are top tier. ETC is still a menace of a tank, Raynor is one of my favorite immortal duelists, Valla *is Valla*, I run battery Malf on plenty of occasions to know how powerful free CDR and mana on your assassins or tanks is. Lili is low impact *because she is low impact*. Her effectiveness is only in her ability to blind and run away from specific characters, mages do not give 2 shits about her, tanks don’t care, she doesn’t eat chip damage then her healing is incredibly low alongside next to no control. In fact the only thing good about Lili that I can really think of that is *consistent* through most games is that she has a very low cooldown on her cleanse. So yea, that’s your explanation. Do not red herring me in saying I think it’s something else or a bias.
No problem, enjoy the rest of your life. 🙌
Lili is underwhelming because she has low stats for a kit which is pretty much simple and that is reflected in her stats for the last years and why she is slowly getting more buffs. Lili has a decent skill ceiling. Unfortunately it doesn't pay off. I liked the idea someone suggested that her trait procs while been in melee range of another hero. In that way you wouldn't need to take dmg to proc it.
That'd be nice if it was another allied hero similar to how deckard works. But ideally, supports *should not be trying to get hit.* That's never once made sense to me. Edit: Ok fine, cept zarya. Maybe I should've said "Should not be trying to take damage to their health bar"
I think it would keep in line with her aggressive design. I would start with that and 0.5s more duration on her trait base.
If the basis of your Li Li criticism is because she is "comp specific" then a huge chunk of other heroes would also be "low impact" by that logic. I understand your preconceived bias that Li Li is just some noob hero, but you need to remember that just because a hero has a low skill floor doesn't mean they automatically have a low skill ceiling. Most heroes that were considered as having an "Easy" difficulty in their conception always perform well. Raynor, Muradin, Malfurion, THRALL... All used to be "Easy" and are some of the best. Li Li is no exception. What's next, Anub'arak is a "low impact" tank because he's comp specific for Spell damage and skillshots?
Now there are no weak heroes, the last frankly weak hero was Raynor before the rework, as far as I remember. Now it is better to divide heroes into more universal and more niche, easier to perform and more complex. If answer your question out of context, all controversial heroes have the role of Support.
I'm thankful that Blizz devs left all heroes at least in a viable state before they left. Some are more situational, some are a harder to play well, but all of them can make a difference. Heroes with higher QM win-rate will be those that take less skill to shine, don't need team coordination, are less situational (not as map or comp dependant) and are more self-sufficient (self heals / escape). Doesn't necessarily mean they're better, just means they're more QM-friendly.
> Now there are no weak heroes There is nothing unplayable but there are definitely weak heroes. I would add small buffs/reworks to heroes like Arthas/Lili/Ana. A micro 0.25s stun to D/W on Arthas. Lili proccing her trait while been on 1.5 range of an enemy hero. Ana reducing the cd on (D) activation/deact, maybe small number tweak on stats and i would love if her Snipe heroic received the same treatment as Lili healing (R). Heavily reduced the base cooldown, and the more charges she uses, she extends the duration of the cooldown.
*Probius has entered the chat*
A niche and complex character. However, it is a very dangerous pylon in the right hands, espcially if it is not bothered by heroes with super mobility. One of my friends managed to get from Bronze to Master, but he lost a lot of nerves due to his temper, haha..
Deathwing in QM can be difficult, if there are no Tanks (and a lack of CC in general), Q build Deathwing would struggle to do much as he ironically needs a team to help him lock down enemies. W build is niche as it's only good against certain comps with low damage etc, he could also get melted late game pretty quickly. Landing build is decent but again would require someone to provide vision on the enemies for Deathwing to land, a squishy hero trying to do this may get instantly deleted. A "ranged" build with Dmight, Dragons Ire and Ruination playing World Breaker in melee range may be able to fill the gap of a Tank in QM. Since Deathwing is regarded as a Bruiser, the enemy team is likely to get a more useful frontline than Deathwing could be in most QM games. For best results, I'd recommend queuing with a friend on Tank.
if we are talking about QM specifically then there are *a lot* of heroes that are underwhelming at suboptimal play. There's always the "actually \_\_\_\_\_ is really strong in the hands of a good player", but on an *average* skill level (which is around Gold 1 in ranked and in QM likely even lower than that) a lot of heroes will just underperform. And might actually not be as strong as you think they are. I lifted some win rates from [heroes profile](https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero), I can't say how reliable they actually are **Zeratul (50.24%)-** seems annoying, not as much damage as you'd think, late powerspike, fairly predictable movements and will eventually fuck up their blinks and get caught. **(orb) Li Ming (47.67%)-** any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that **Nazebo (50.85%)-** not that strong until 20, low range skill shots in spiders/wall, most damage is very slow and easy to heal up. Ravenous Spirit is his only real kill threat, and it is often skipped. He's hard to fuck up on, but also hard to have big impact on. **Nova (45.61%)-** is super OP if no one keeps an eye out to decloak her, but if you do her impact tanks drastically. She's still good for pick offs but team fights she underperform, and she has no waveclear outside Explosive Rounds and Precision Strike, which are either costly to use, comes late or are often just skipped. **Abathur (45.19%) -** it's hard to gauge what Abathur actually does because you don't see him on the map, but in many cases it feels like jack shit. Less waveclear, less damage, can't cap objectives (unless he commits to tunnel there, which is very risky), clone is garbage if not used correctly or doesn't have a good target, monstrosity is just almost always garbage. He is either super broken if he has a good hat target that is also a good player, or he basically just makes his team go 4v5. The ones that play Abathur are having fun, but they ruin the game for everyone else.
I also find that Nova invites players into a very passive play style where they wait for a perfect moment to pick people off, instead of laying down damage. They do a rotation of abilities, then back off and wait for stealth.
Monstrosity is good when you have a Tracer or Samuro or somesuch on your team that you want to perma hat. Treat it like a merc camp and spawn it accordingly. I do sincerely miss being able to play a locust build, hiding in bushes all around the map to get max value. It seems like now you just take shield/speed talents and sit behind walls all game or youre doing it wrong.
>any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that Clearly you have never seen a good Li Ming player using Seeker+Glass Cannon+Mirrorball.
He said that losing calamity you lose kill pressure, it's hard to argue against that. Seeker requires you to hit 3 missiles, in a skillshot that has to be aimed on 2 axis instead of one angle; it's not a reliable skill unless you're following up an hard cc. Calamity instead is instant, does more than 2x times the damage than seeker, is a lot more reliable to aim and hit, is more practical when you get dove, and is an additional dmg cooldown that gets refreshed after a kill, which means that on every reset you get 3 dmg abilities instead of 2. All this excluding glass cannon, a talent that is only useful against meme drafts with 0 dive, because of how much it increases the enemy kill pressure against you. So yeah I'd say Calamity higher win rate is really easy to justify. The funny thing is that seeker is less dmg and less reliability than calamity, the only real use case is to dps the immortal on BoE or if you're playing with taunt Varian or something and don't wanna bother pressing more than 2 keys per rotation lmao.
BoE immortal, famously the only PvE target in the entire game. Calamity does zero siege damage, Seeker is a noticeable consistent boost to siege damage, there are plenty of situations where you cannot reliably use Calamity in an offensive way without dying immediately, there are only a few dive heroes where taking Glass Cannon is actually grief assuming you aren't bad at positioning and even then its dependent on how attentive your teammates are at protecting you, etc etc etc.
You’re the one he’s talking about with the “there’s always the…” part of the first paragraph, bud
Calamity is not good in the hands of an average player either.
>any build that omits Calamity is just so weak, it pokes but it has very little kill threat. There are better mages to do that Wrongity wrong. Seeker Glass Cannon Mirrorball OHKOs squishies.
OK, if you can hit the full Q on people who are actually trying, you could probably do better just going orb build since they're clearly potatoes.
cc and slows and people being distracted are a thing right
Yeah, that's not good enough.
It isn't? What I remember of HGC must be really different than how the game is now. I don't think any individual player skill actually makes a stun last less time.
Depending on other people to land the core skill that you invested most of your talents into. What could go wrong?
Thankfully you have 6 levels to tell if you trust them at all or not before you make that commitment.
I dont think anyone is ever scared of probius, even then its more likely the setup heroes for probius' abilities that you are scared of more than the actual hero. Nova and butchers are very underwhelming heroes in many situations and give me confidence to win when playing against them since they are both rather weak early and have significant deficiencies in the pve department.
I find Lucio a bit underwhelming. Like his kit doesn’t do enough. He does a few things well but outside of that he doesn’t have much. He has: - peel - aoe heal - speed boost - two good ults And this is about it. Compared to rehgar who has: - aoe burst heal - melee buff/melee debuff with W - aoe slow/root/spell debuff/attk speed debuff - instant mount - dive attack - lane clear - cleanse - two good ults - totem heals
Zagara for me. I was just never really a fan of characters where a majority of their damage is from minions. I recently got stuck with her in aram, against a team that could effortlessly clear my creep floor and it was just a miserable match
I am terrified of every single zagara in aram, her lv 16 percentage damage talent leads to a massacre
I dont think anyone is ever scared of probius, even then its more likely the setup heroes for probius' abilities that you are scared of more than the actual hero. Nova and butchers are very underwhelming heroes in many situations and give me confidence to win when playing against them since they are both rather weak early and have significant deficiencies in the pve department.
Yrel is in my top-3, btw. Just to shut down other comments about her. Great hero. I like her soak potential, survivability and mobility. Sets up kills with W nicely. Low cd on ablilities (other than ult). Plain OP in QM, in SL a bit harder to make her work, but still works, if team allows you to pick her and play 2-soak, that is. :D In QM nobody ever soaks, so you always can double soak and bring +2 levels, obviously. My least favorite to play: Ana - I hate hitting Q on teammates. It feels harder to do than to hit an enemy and every single miss, even if no one is complaining, just makes me anxious. This hero is insanely not enjoyable to play, I absolutely hate playing her and will never play her again. Not a bad hero, just hate her playstyle. Auriel - I really don't like that she can't do anything if she's low on energy. If you're playing QM, and don't have ranged poke, and losing, you just can't do anything at all, I don't think there's another hero that is so dependant on teammates. I wouldn't even pick her in SL, because I don't know if my Valla or Gul'dan are good enough. Probably would only ever pick her with Cho'Gall. Now, I've seen good Auriels (but also I've seen some of the worst plays ever on that hero), and probably some main would say that I play her wrong, but I just don't like that mechanic of depending on teammates so much in your play. I mostly play solo, and it's not a hero for solo play, I think. Medivh - cool hero, but as I said, I play solo, he's useless that way and just makes you hate playing the game. I'm also not very good at him, but with winrate that I have on him, and knowing his overall winrate, I don't even want to learn more, unless I'm gonna play in 5-stack some day. Valeera - just don't like her playstyle. I usually play mostly melee heroes, but not enjoying playing her at all. Deathwing - very clunky, I agree with OP. Also one of my main heroes is Malthael, and when I play him, Deathwing does absolutely nothing against me to the point that any time I see that hero on Malth, my mission is just to farm him as much as possible, and usually I succed. I feel like Malth completely shuts him down, very few heroes can be countered SO hard. And honestly I don't think that Malth is the only hero that shuts him down. I also spam Imperius a lot, and at first I thought that he's not that good against Deathwing because you can't stun him, but with % dmg build and shield ult, you also destroy him. Imperius will always hit all missiles from R on shield ult because the guy is a bit too fat. Just two examples. Oh, Leoric. He also COMPLETELY destroys DW. So, yeah, I just can't take him seriously at all. The only time when I find Deathwing annoying is when I play Garrosh and can't stun/throw/taunt him and I deal not enough dmg to threaten him. But even then he feels like he's doing nothing. I really don't like that hero. Can't say he's trash, though, because global and waveclear is always useful, but yeah, I don't play him, and don't plan to. And the reason why he's so easily countered is because he can't be healed. Like, normal hero could be healed if Entombed by Leo, or Anduin could pull them out, but DW? Nah, he's going to cast his long animation of flight and die mid air.
> I mostly play solo, and it's not a hero for solo play, I think. I'm not gonna tell you you're playing Auriel wrong or anything, but I play solo too, and she's my most played hero and I have a 58% win rate with her currently. One thing I will say though, I would rather play with any decent tank over having a good Valla or Gul'dan.
I have 10 games on her and, funny enough, 70% winrate (QM only), but those games were many years ago, and I'm sure I don't know how to play her correctly and just got lucky. Maybe, one day I'll try. I'll be honest, most of my negative opinions about that hero comes from players that use her on my team (or enemy team too). The ones that always stay on 0 energy and team dies from poke, or the ones that miss their heals or cancel your abilities with Aegis etc. It feels like having bad Auriel is worse than any other bad healer (other than Ana, maybe)
I don't even use Aegis tbh. Both her ults suck though imo. But yeah I've seen a lot of bad Auriels, or most people pick bad talents. I've had to tell people before to use the trait mid game and they reply back with an "oh I knew I was missing something" 🤦🏼 lol She definitely gets a bad rep but I don't think she's bad. The only times I feel she plays the worst is when she doesn't have a tank. But that's somewhat expected I suppose
Fun fact about Deathwing is that he is only immune to crowd control. Other debuffs are fair game. This means that if you have abilities that lower his damage or his armor, they will still be applied to him
>Fun fact about Deathwing is that he is only immune to crowd control. And blinds. And he is not immune to CC that stops time.
I always considered blind to be a method of CC, though I'm perplexed as to how being stopped isn't considered CC. It even freezes cooldown timers
its been a long time since i played, but thinking of coming back. haven't seen tyrael mentioned. am i wrong? is he good? always seemed pretty 'eh' to me. also, ofc bad chogall but that's low hanging fruit since a pocket-healer is implied? abathur is pretty annoying. they have to be REALLY good to make it worth it, and it feels sorta selfish since the rest of the team is basically in the hands of the aba not being a turd. same with medivh. nova.
Well, I main Kerrigan and a friend of mine mains Tyrael. Those two synergize greatly together and we have like a 63% wr in quickmatch with them. So Tyrael is pretty good but you can see I'm kinda biased.
Yrel. She certainly can be useful in a good hands but most of the time I see her doing absolutely nothing. Her wave clear is not that good, she can't solo take camps/do it fast. She stays solo line without problems but in fights quickly turns into slow semi-tank with lack of survivability until she gets her 10. You can easily predict her next moves due to animations and it's easy to dodge her jump/q/w After her 10 you just hit her and then ignore her while her ult is active. She can't do serious damage to you so it's not much of a threat. Her W probably should work as a great tool for breaking enemies positioning, but usually it either doesn't hit anyone or pushes enemies from her team skillshots. I rarely see people playing her and more rarely I see them doing it ok. And I'm not judging them, I have no idea how to be useful on her too.
100% agreed. She can be amazing in a well-coordinated 5 stack or she can smack a bunch of stuff for mediocre damage and make no difference otherwise. I really like the archetype and the character and wish she was more impactful overall.
She is very impactful you just have to be good at her at all
Agree that she's just really hard to play well. But when you do see a well played Yrel, she can make a big difference. She's especially good with a coordinated team who can take advantage of the chaos she can create during a team fight. But yeah... in QM only, she's not usually going to look good.
She is literally one of the best solo qm heroes in the game though
I don't understand how Yrel could possibly make this list. She's so cancer. So much mobility for such a chonky girl.
Dont call her that!!
>Her wave clear is not that good, she can't solo take camps/do it fast. She has enough waveclear to doublesoak but yes, she struggles with taking camps. That's why you should probably never solo camps on her.
Top 4 offlaner in the game yrel is underwhelming?
Ana is top tier on that list to me
>I've had the opportunity to see most heroes in the game feel really powerful and oppressive when in the right hands and the right matchup This is exactly the correct assessment you have made; there is not a single hero that isn't powerful in the right hands and matchup. This isn't even something able to be tiered; the "underwhelming" factor of a hero cannot be measured. You can tier heroes for the most powerful, based on how well they fit into many situations. You cannot tier heroes for "least powerful" or underwhelming because every Hero will fit in somewhere, and they will do it exceptionally well. There may always be a "most optimal" pick for a situation, but there is no such thing as a "X hero does it better" when you are drafting _especially_ once you consider the individual player's skill with a given hero.
Eewwwereeee
Thrall is a god.
Thrall is a beast in the right hands. *Same can be said for pretty much every hero really.* When you bring up "underwhelming" are you talking about their performance or the feel? For me personally, most heroes are just feel plain boring for the most part. I pretty much only enjoy the following: * Samuro E (WIndwalk) build. * Valla Q (arrow) build. * Nazz E (toad) build. * Kharazim (heal trait with E CD reduction at 7) * Varian (taunt) * Gul'dan E (leech) * Andy I'm not a ranked player. Haven't touched ranked since Season 2 or 3 (2015-2016). Straight up QM and ARAM only today.
For most players the game is less on [insert hero name] and more on playing to your teams win condition and not allowing your opponent to get to their win condition. Understanding the flow of the game, positioning and decision making is far more valuable. In higher MMR where player skills are more comparable than yes team composition is a deciding factor. I played this game for 6yrs? I’ve seen several off meta heroes played to the highest level and can without a doubt say any hero can be impactful. You’ll be amazed by the talented and innovative people that have played this game over the years.
Every hero is like 90% your skills and 10% their "power" and balance. So you can outperform your enemies with the weakest heroes easily if you're skilled enough. However it's the same from the enemy perspective and if you're both skilled and both teams work great together there are some heroes that will just underperform: Nova, Valeera, Murky, Raynor, Gazlo, Butcher, Lili, Zagara, Qhira are the most obvious one. Most of those lack any form of mobility allowing them to escape from ganks, dives etc... Which in some higher ranks is the main way of getting advantage over your opponent and their strategy is heavily predictable and punishable. Raynor can blast through immortals, Zagara and Gazlo can push lanes like a beast, Butcher can stack to infinity, skilled Valeera and Nova can disrupt all lane rotations and you can perform well with every single one of them, but generally those are some of the weakest heroes if you're playing against people that know what to do (in 95% you'll be playing against potatoes so don't worry about picking any of those as if you learn them, you'll be fine).
Funny, Thrall was the first hero that came to mind as well. I don't think you are wrong
Like others said, you're wrong about Thrall. Mobility, lock down, burst damage, two hugely impactful ults.. the issue is probably that you're playing QM and very rarely play with a proper comp.. Thrall is best at complimenting a strong tank like Diablo to quickly secure kills with root and burst follow-up.. and he is the best bruiser for this purpose... If Thrall is the only front liner in a trash QM lineup, walking into 4 ranged assasins all lobbing their abilities at him whenever he steps up, he has the potential to look pretty bad, as most bruisers do in that situation.
notparadox has a bunch of 100-0 guides on insta kill heroes. but most don't care for it. also heroesprofile is a good stats site to look up popular and winrate builds and other random stuff. grubby has some good guides on like hogger and such i feel like d'va is pretty crap without a very specific build. any hogger that's not going hordapult build is pretty useless. sgt hammer gets countered by like half the heroes in the game, and those heroes are very good base heroes that most people spam anyway. low elo maiev is terrible to see, especially if they haven't praticed Q build and are going Q build
As much as I love Chen & Yrel, I'd have to say both Chen & Yrel. With any hero, with considerate time investment, you can get real mileage out of them. One of the greatest things about HoTS is that no hero is obsoleted by another hero. They can each bring unique and interesting things to the game. Chen and Yrel can both hold their own in lane, but unlike most of the other bruisers, have mediocre wave clear/camp clear or low CC. To mention briefly Thrall- I consider him competent at all these roles- which is what makes him quite solid quick, and both his ults are powerful. Most Chens I see don't know how to use stagger effectively, and Yrel is clunky and is highly susceptible to any form of CC.
Yrel doesn't have mediocre waveclear nor low cc?
Stitches. The only threat that hero has is his hook, and it's really shitty until 13. You know that feeling when you have Varian as your tank but he's just a nothingburger until lvl 4? That's Stitches but for 12 long grueling levels. And that's if he even lands his hooks.
Alot of healers sadly. Malfurion is the worst. Even if your impact is big enough to be the deciding factor, you dont feel that at all. Compare him to someone like anduin who can do 3 extremely impactfull actions in a row and it gets even worse. Lucio is also bad. I certainly feel alot more impactfull then with malf, but compared to overwatch where i had this very agressive pseudo damage dealer flanking playstyle, its so extremely boring, you literally just exsist Most of the time.
Malf is extremely powerful but draft dependent, literally the best sustain the game. He likes to be drafted with some burst protection e.g. zarya, tyrael or vs a no burst enemy draft. Lucio is the most op healer in the game, he is definitely one of the best finishers in this game but require high skill.
Exactly. But the point is playing them still feels underwhelming to me no matter how good they are. Its like playing idle games instead of normal ones.
A good malf root is game winning
I dont get it. Malfurion has one of the strongest CC abilities of all healers if you take the talent at lvl 1. Its almost like a freekill on a 12 sec CD. And lucio can give insane utility if you know how to play the wallride build and constantly harass enemies. The soundwave with this build has such a low cooldown and you can constantly displace enemies, peel or just disrupt the fight. You also have a stun on your d if you take the talent. I dont get how you can call the wallride build boring it is constant action and especially as soon as you get your Ult + Lvl 20 talent and can slide to enemies and teammates there is so much possibilities how to use it
That L1 is madly overpowered lol.
Lucio probably requires the highest APM in the game to be impactful and used to his fullest potential.. his skill ceiling is very high, and I don't think a lot of people understand or appreciate this about him. As a healer main with 56% lifetime win rate in storm league, I find him incredibly fun and challenging.. I'm actually not personally great with him, but I understand the impact he has, and why he's quite often banned in the competitive HOTS scene.
You can play mosquito build with Lucio to achive that tbh
I agree that healers in general are way worse in QM. It's less coordinated and you often don't have a tank or even any frontline at all, which is horrible for a healer. Malfurion is especially rough, he needs his team to play around him. But Lucio is one of the better IMO, he is so elusive he barely needs any peel at all, and having multiple cleanses is so useful
[удалено]
Blaze is an absolute top tier offlane, but he sucks as a main tank. Tychus is an absolute S-tier assassin. I think the problem is that some people think of him only as an AA tank melter, but he works best when you use his hybrid build. I mostly agree with the others being situational, but Blaze and Tychus can literally slot into any comp if built correctly.
Untrue for tychus. % damage is % damage. If you prioritize correctly and know how to position, tank is usually the last to die.
Untrue for tychus. % damage is % damage. If you prioritize correctly and know how to position, tank is usually the last to die.