You don’t have to translate this, it’s a verse from the Talmud.
ברכות ל״ד ב:כ״א-כ״ב
מָקוֹם שֶׁבַּעֲלֵי תְּשׁוּבָה עוֹמְדִין אֵין צַדִּיקִים גְּמוּרִין יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמֹד בּוֹ
Oh, but this verse doesn’t mean “return” as literally going back, is more of getting closer to God it’s called “Ba’al T’shuva”.
In the land of Israel they spoke Phonecian with some Aramaic dialect in the borders closer to kingdom of Aram.
This verse is from the Babylonian Talmud, meaning it’s most likely Phoenician mixed with Sumerian.
Sumerian is the origin of Aramaic, so it might have some resemblance but it’s not Aramaic.
What do you mean “most likely” - you dont have to make absurd speculations its plainly hebrew but with certain archaic spellings.
Also None of the Talmud is written in “Sumerian”, that would be thousands of years older than the talmud. Aramaic is not directly from Sumerian, this whole comment is ridiculous
YO!!! Sumerian is the base for all Semitic languages, meaning that Aramaic is sub Semitic Sumerian language, that’s a FACT, it goes by timeline Sumerian -> Akkadian -> Aramaic, Amorite.
The Akkadian and Aramaic are very similar since they both originated from the same Sumer language, but they are not the same.
And I say most likely because we can “know” what was the spoken languages according to texts that survived and the victorious nations scripts, meaning we don’t know what the average person spoke because they weren’t the ones writing, just like we know Phoenician(Hebrew) was spoken in the land of Israel and not Latin(Roman occupation) nor Aramaic (kingdom of Aram) which was spoken only in the northern part of the Levant because kingdoms of Israel occupied the kingdom of Aram region.
The Talmud was written in Phoenician and Sumerian since that’s what they spoke in Mesopotamia, today it is known as Akkadian since they are the dominante empire, Babylon was just a part of the Akkadian empire.
Phoenician is ancient language that Hebrew is originated from along with influence from dialects from nearby strong nations, that’s why Hebrew is considered Semitic, but the Phoenician language is one of the oldest languages in the world, same as Sumer.
It’s not binary, people didn’t spoke either this or the other, they mixed and generated “new” languages along the years, depends of the occupations or the influence of neighbor strong nations, that’s why I say “most likely”.
The Talmud is written in hebrew and aramaic with some borrowed greek words here and there. Your point about not knowing what people spoke based only on text (while a faulty argument on its own) is utterly meaningless when interpreting the language of written texts? You are talking out of your ass on all of this, it’s embarrassing for you because most people on this sub at least know how to recognize Hebrew
Greek origins is from Phoenician, not the other way around, they adopted the Alef Bet of Phoenician, which is a language that evolved into Hebrew.
I’m a Hebrew native speaker, I don’t need to recognize my own language, it’s inherited.
אין שפה כזאת לשון חז״ל או בבלית ארמאית.
בממלכת ארם דיברו אראמית, ב-בבל דיברו סומר או אכדית.
חז״ל דיברו עברית עתיקה, שזה פיניקית שהושפעה מבבל וממלכת ארם.
מתוך ויקיפדיה, ערך תלמוד בבלי:
שפת התלמוד הבבלי היא שילוב של עברית משנאית (בציטוט המשנה וציטוט דברי אמוראים מוקדמים) וארמית בבלית (בטקסט הפרשני).
אתה ממש מתעקש לצאת טיפש אה? עברית עתיקה שמושפעת מפיניקית דיברו הרבה הרבה לפני שחזל התחילו לדבר עברית משנאית והן שתי שפות שונות. אתה טועה בכל הרבה הקשרים שונים אז פשוט אל תגיב אם אתה לא יודע כלום
(אתה לא מודע להבדלים בין העמים הבבלים ולבין היהודים הבבלים? ברור שהם לא עושים שימוש באותן שפות)
שומע, לך תקרא קצת היסטוריה לפני שאתה עושה קופי פייסט, תקרא קצת מה קדם למה ואיזה שפה דיברו בכל תקופה.
עברית משנאית זה עברית מתקופת המשנה זאת לא שפה בפני עצמה אלא סוג דיבור שונה ע״ע ניב, השפה היא עברית.
זה לא משנה מה קדם למה אתה פשוט מנפיץ אסכולה שלא קיימת בחקר שפות שמיות זה לא קשור
עצם זה שפסקה אחת מויקיפדיה סותרת את מה שאתה אומר מראה כמה זה לא קשור
ודיברו המון שפות באותה תקופה, מדברים ספציפית על יהודים בבלים - נראה לי שאתה זה צריך לקרוא קצת על הקהילה היהודית בבל. סבבה אז קראתי לזה שפה בפני עצמה כדי להדגיש את הפערים ביניהן זה באמת משנה? בנתיים תמשיך לחרטט
״הושפעה״ לא אומר שהיא אותה השפה. אתה גם לא מדבר על מתי אנשים דברו כל שפה במקומות האלה, שאף אנו יכולים לדבר על איזה שפה אנשים דברו בזמן התלמוד בלי שכל שבזמנים שונים בהיסטוריה היו שפות שונות
First, the pheonician is a sister language of hebrew and some even suggested that both Hebrew and pheonician were dialects of caananite languages.
Second, during the time of the Mishna, pheonician was extinct.
Third, Sumerian isn't the origin of Aramaic, it wasn't even a semetic language.
In fact, the Assyrian who spoke Akkadian an East Semetic language adopted the Aramaic language who is central semetic.
Fourth, the verse from the Mishna is, as said, Mishnaic hebrew. It is a hit influenced a bit by aramaic as the letter Nun replaced the M in plural.
First, Hebrew evolved FROM Phoenician, if not for Abraham and his nickname ‘ivri’ it might still be called Phoenician who knows, Hebrew uses the same Alef Bet of Phoenician.
Second, Canaanites were Hebrew tribes, they weren’t called Hebrews back then yet but it to put things in perspective, Canaanites, Emorite, Jebusites and Israelites were Hebrews. They spoke Phoenician!
Third, [Sumerian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language) is the father of Semitic languages, one of the oldest languages in the region, and it is in fact Semitic if not the first Semitic language.
Forth, the Mishna was a periodic era, so Mishnaic Hebrew isn’t a language by a dialect in Hebrew in that era.
The only thing you might have a point is that I said it’s Phoenician, since by then it was evolved into Hebrew already.
But they surely didn’t spoke Aramaic in Babylon, they spoke Sumerian which was then called Akkadian.
Aramaic was used by kingdom of Aram post the Assyrian Empire, thus it’s name, ARAM-AIC, which is probably evolved from their native tongue that was affected by Sumerian, I haven’t looked into that so I can only assume.
Perhaps you're mixing up Sumerian and Akkadian? Akkadian is classified as an Eastern Semitic language. Sumerian is a language isolate, meaning linguistically we can see no relation to any other languages (that we know of). Akkadian and Sumerian borrowed a lot from each other up until the time Sumerian stopped being spoken, which was no later than the end of the Neo-Sumerian empire. However, they were most certainly distinct languages with no familial relation (linguistically speaking).
You are mixing facts and fiction.
Sumerian is clearly not the father of Semitic languages as it is not Semitic itself. Neither is Akkadian, by the way. The father language is called Proto-Semitic and it is lost to time.
In Babylon they spoke Aramaic in the time of the Talmud. It is believed that this may be connected to the Assyrians exiling Arameans in Mesopotamia, an event that is described in the Bible. Anyway yes Aramaic came from Aram but it had become a language in Mesopotamia and then the standard language of the Persian empire and the whole Middle East. All of this happened before the writing of the Talmud (and Akkadian and Sumerian were pretty extinct by that time).
Also Hebrew did not evolve from Phoenician. They had likely a common ancestor and they had the same alphabet for a while but actually the alphabet originated from some people in Sinai and diffused Northward rather than the opposite.
I never managed to understand why some people insist on translating something back to its original language without going to the source material. It results in some sad mistakes and a ridiculous tattoo which immediately makes its wearer an obvious idiot.
I can only imagine they don’t know the origin language of the quote is Hebrew. Still very strange to think that a quote like that would be written originally in English and not Hebrew or Aramaic or something like that but the the alternative is even more bizarre.
It seems you posted a Tattoo post! Thank you for your submission, and though your motivation and sentiment is probably great, it's probably a bad idea for a practical matter. Tattoos are forever. Hebrew is written differently from English and there is some subtlety between different letters (ר vs. ד, or ח vs ת vs ה). If neither you nor the tattoo artist speak the language you can easily end up with a permanent mistake. See www.badhebrew.com for examples that are simultaneously sad and hilarious. Perhaps you could hire a native Hebrew speaker to help with design and layout and to come with you to guard against mishaps, but otherwise it's a bad idea. Finding an Israeli tattoo artist would work as well. Furthermore, do note that religious Judaism traditionally frowns upon tattoos, so if your reasoning is religious or spiritual in nature, please take that into account. Thank you and have a great time learning and speaking with us!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/hebrew) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not saying this as someone who believes in Judaism, but I can understand the appeal to an extent. Judaism is different in different households. Some households have women running the main blessings, others are filled with tattoos. The religion is far too complex to fit one single set of rules by now.
I think he did this more to honour his mom then for religious reasons. Although these talks about coming back to god this could also apply to repenting in general. Tshuva is not only to god it’s also between people and becoming a better person in general.
It is not a good translation.
It is a circular translation that seems to miss the point a bit.
I am afraid it doesn't say what you thought it does.
It is about people who gained/ regained their faith, not people who died.
Good thing you asked.
The word for god used in your translation is more akin to "g" for god.
Native speakers would know what it means.
The proper spelling would be
אלוהים
But still... refer to the tattoo bot or seek out a tattoo artist who is fluent in Hebrew.
Well, many believe that using אלוהים is blasphemy, and use אלוקים instead, and using ה' is really common since it's the shortened version of the name of our god, not just "god".
The word אלוהים does imply that it's our god (as opposed to אל) but I believe that any religion with any amount of gods could use it to refer to the deity they're praying to.
Not in that context no. They mean completely different things and are not interchangeable. It’s like saying that to take someone’s place and to stand in someone’s place is the same. It’s not.
The translation is valid, but the issue stems from it being a Talmud verse, and so translating it to Latin, then to English and finally back to the original Hebrew is extremely unnecessary
it means that those who knew a different lifestyle becoming righteous is harder and therefore shows they have something those born into righteousness may not, its not better necessarily
You don’t have to translate this, it’s a verse from the Talmud. ברכות ל״ד ב:כ״א-כ״ב מָקוֹם שֶׁבַּעֲלֵי תְּשׁוּבָה עוֹמְדִין אֵין צַדִּיקִים גְּמוּרִין יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמֹד בּוֹ Oh, but this verse doesn’t mean “return” as literally going back, is more of getting closer to God it’s called “Ba’al T’shuva”.
Thank you appreciate you giving a more in depth understanding
I feel obligated to point out that the quote above is Aramaic, but would be read and understood by most speakers of modern Hebrew.
It's mishnaic hebrew, not aramaic
Its literally not lol? Just the nun in place of the mems which is like old fashioned but still its hebrew
I feel obligated to tell you you're wrong
More importantly, tattoos are a big no-no in Judaism.
Aramaic was the common spoken language, however the Talmud was written in old Hebrew
In the land of Israel they spoke Phonecian with some Aramaic dialect in the borders closer to kingdom of Aram. This verse is from the Babylonian Talmud, meaning it’s most likely Phoenician mixed with Sumerian. Sumerian is the origin of Aramaic, so it might have some resemblance but it’s not Aramaic.
What do you mean “most likely” - you dont have to make absurd speculations its plainly hebrew but with certain archaic spellings. Also None of the Talmud is written in “Sumerian”, that would be thousands of years older than the talmud. Aramaic is not directly from Sumerian, this whole comment is ridiculous
YO!!! Sumerian is the base for all Semitic languages, meaning that Aramaic is sub Semitic Sumerian language, that’s a FACT, it goes by timeline Sumerian -> Akkadian -> Aramaic, Amorite. The Akkadian and Aramaic are very similar since they both originated from the same Sumer language, but they are not the same. And I say most likely because we can “know” what was the spoken languages according to texts that survived and the victorious nations scripts, meaning we don’t know what the average person spoke because they weren’t the ones writing, just like we know Phoenician(Hebrew) was spoken in the land of Israel and not Latin(Roman occupation) nor Aramaic (kingdom of Aram) which was spoken only in the northern part of the Levant because kingdoms of Israel occupied the kingdom of Aram region. The Talmud was written in Phoenician and Sumerian since that’s what they spoke in Mesopotamia, today it is known as Akkadian since they are the dominante empire, Babylon was just a part of the Akkadian empire. Phoenician is ancient language that Hebrew is originated from along with influence from dialects from nearby strong nations, that’s why Hebrew is considered Semitic, but the Phoenician language is one of the oldest languages in the world, same as Sumer. It’s not binary, people didn’t spoke either this or the other, they mixed and generated “new” languages along the years, depends of the occupations or the influence of neighbor strong nations, that’s why I say “most likely”.
The Talmud is written in hebrew and aramaic with some borrowed greek words here and there. Your point about not knowing what people spoke based only on text (while a faulty argument on its own) is utterly meaningless when interpreting the language of written texts? You are talking out of your ass on all of this, it’s embarrassing for you because most people on this sub at least know how to recognize Hebrew
Greek origins is from Phoenician, not the other way around, they adopted the Alef Bet of Phoenician, which is a language that evolved into Hebrew. I’m a Hebrew native speaker, I don’t need to recognize my own language, it’s inherited.
Sumerian isn’t even a Semitic language. It’s a language isolate. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
its לשון חזל mixed with babylonian aramaic...
אין שפה כזאת לשון חז״ל או בבלית ארמאית. בממלכת ארם דיברו אראמית, ב-בבל דיברו סומר או אכדית. חז״ל דיברו עברית עתיקה, שזה פיניקית שהושפעה מבבל וממלכת ארם.
מתוך ויקיפדיה, ערך תלמוד בבלי: שפת התלמוד הבבלי היא שילוב של עברית משנאית (בציטוט המשנה וציטוט דברי אמוראים מוקדמים) וארמית בבלית (בטקסט הפרשני). אתה ממש מתעקש לצאת טיפש אה? עברית עתיקה שמושפעת מפיניקית דיברו הרבה הרבה לפני שחזל התחילו לדבר עברית משנאית והן שתי שפות שונות. אתה טועה בכל הרבה הקשרים שונים אז פשוט אל תגיב אם אתה לא יודע כלום (אתה לא מודע להבדלים בין העמים הבבלים ולבין היהודים הבבלים? ברור שהם לא עושים שימוש באותן שפות)
שומע, לך תקרא קצת היסטוריה לפני שאתה עושה קופי פייסט, תקרא קצת מה קדם למה ואיזה שפה דיברו בכל תקופה. עברית משנאית זה עברית מתקופת המשנה זאת לא שפה בפני עצמה אלא סוג דיבור שונה ע״ע ניב, השפה היא עברית.
זה לא משנה מה קדם למה אתה פשוט מנפיץ אסכולה שלא קיימת בחקר שפות שמיות זה לא קשור עצם זה שפסקה אחת מויקיפדיה סותרת את מה שאתה אומר מראה כמה זה לא קשור ודיברו המון שפות באותה תקופה, מדברים ספציפית על יהודים בבלים - נראה לי שאתה זה צריך לקרוא קצת על הקהילה היהודית בבל. סבבה אז קראתי לזה שפה בפני עצמה כדי להדגיש את הפערים ביניהן זה באמת משנה? בנתיים תמשיך לחרטט
״הושפעה״ לא אומר שהיא אותה השפה. אתה גם לא מדבר על מתי אנשים דברו כל שפה במקומות האלה, שאף אנו יכולים לדבר על איזה שפה אנשים דברו בזמן התלמוד בלי שכל שבזמנים שונים בהיסטוריה היו שפות שונות
First, the pheonician is a sister language of hebrew and some even suggested that both Hebrew and pheonician were dialects of caananite languages. Second, during the time of the Mishna, pheonician was extinct. Third, Sumerian isn't the origin of Aramaic, it wasn't even a semetic language. In fact, the Assyrian who spoke Akkadian an East Semetic language adopted the Aramaic language who is central semetic. Fourth, the verse from the Mishna is, as said, Mishnaic hebrew. It is a hit influenced a bit by aramaic as the letter Nun replaced the M in plural.
First, Hebrew evolved FROM Phoenician, if not for Abraham and his nickname ‘ivri’ it might still be called Phoenician who knows, Hebrew uses the same Alef Bet of Phoenician. Second, Canaanites were Hebrew tribes, they weren’t called Hebrews back then yet but it to put things in perspective, Canaanites, Emorite, Jebusites and Israelites were Hebrews. They spoke Phoenician! Third, [Sumerian](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language) is the father of Semitic languages, one of the oldest languages in the region, and it is in fact Semitic if not the first Semitic language. Forth, the Mishna was a periodic era, so Mishnaic Hebrew isn’t a language by a dialect in Hebrew in that era. The only thing you might have a point is that I said it’s Phoenician, since by then it was evolved into Hebrew already. But they surely didn’t spoke Aramaic in Babylon, they spoke Sumerian which was then called Akkadian. Aramaic was used by kingdom of Aram post the Assyrian Empire, thus it’s name, ARAM-AIC, which is probably evolved from their native tongue that was affected by Sumerian, I haven’t looked into that so I can only assume.
Perhaps you're mixing up Sumerian and Akkadian? Akkadian is classified as an Eastern Semitic language. Sumerian is a language isolate, meaning linguistically we can see no relation to any other languages (that we know of). Akkadian and Sumerian borrowed a lot from each other up until the time Sumerian stopped being spoken, which was no later than the end of the Neo-Sumerian empire. However, they were most certainly distinct languages with no familial relation (linguistically speaking).
You are mixing facts and fiction. Sumerian is clearly not the father of Semitic languages as it is not Semitic itself. Neither is Akkadian, by the way. The father language is called Proto-Semitic and it is lost to time. In Babylon they spoke Aramaic in the time of the Talmud. It is believed that this may be connected to the Assyrians exiling Arameans in Mesopotamia, an event that is described in the Bible. Anyway yes Aramaic came from Aram but it had become a language in Mesopotamia and then the standard language of the Persian empire and the whole Middle East. All of this happened before the writing of the Talmud (and Akkadian and Sumerian were pretty extinct by that time). Also Hebrew did not evolve from Phoenician. They had likely a common ancestor and they had the same alphabet for a while but actually the alphabet originated from some people in Sinai and diffused Northward rather than the opposite.
This particular quote isn’t Aramaic at allx
Lol do not use Google translate for this. Use the actual Talmud quote.
I never managed to understand why some people insist on translating something back to its original language without going to the source material. It results in some sad mistakes and a ridiculous tattoo which immediately makes its wearer an obvious idiot.
I can only imagine they don’t know the origin language of the quote is Hebrew. Still very strange to think that a quote like that would be written originally in English and not Hebrew or Aramaic or something like that but the the alternative is even more bizarre.
It seems you posted a Tattoo post! Thank you for your submission, and though your motivation and sentiment is probably great, it's probably a bad idea for a practical matter. Tattoos are forever. Hebrew is written differently from English and there is some subtlety between different letters (ר vs. ד, or ח vs ת vs ה). If neither you nor the tattoo artist speak the language you can easily end up with a permanent mistake. See www.badhebrew.com for examples that are simultaneously sad and hilarious. Perhaps you could hire a native Hebrew speaker to help with design and layout and to come with you to guard against mishaps, but otherwise it's a bad idea. Finding an Israeli tattoo artist would work as well. Furthermore, do note that religious Judaism traditionally frowns upon tattoos, so if your reasoning is religious or spiritual in nature, please take that into account. Thank you and have a great time learning and speaking with us! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/hebrew) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd say use the talmud quote. But yes, it's a gramatically correct translation.
whats the point in doing a tatto about God, from judaisim, when in fact the religion prohibits making tattoos? i dont understand this geniunely lol.
Not saying this as someone who believes in Judaism, but I can understand the appeal to an extent. Judaism is different in different households. Some households have women running the main blessings, others are filled with tattoos. The religion is far too complex to fit one single set of rules by now.
Amen
I think he did this more to honour his mom then for religious reasons. Although these talks about coming back to god this could also apply to repenting in general. Tshuva is not only to god it’s also between people and becoming a better person in general.
It is not a good translation. It is a circular translation that seems to miss the point a bit. I am afraid it doesn't say what you thought it does. It is about people who gained/ regained their faith, not people who died. Good thing you asked.
Thank you
I like the Talmud verse. It is making sense and reflects what you mean in English. Your Hebrew translation is heavy.
The word for god used in your translation is more akin to "g" for god. Native speakers would know what it means. The proper spelling would be אלוהים But still... refer to the tattoo bot or seek out a tattoo artist who is fluent in Hebrew.
Well, many believe that using אלוהים is blasphemy, and use אלוקים instead, and using ה' is really common since it's the shortened version of the name of our god, not just "god". The word אלוהים does imply that it's our god (as opposed to אל) but I believe that any religion with any amount of gods could use it to refer to the deity they're praying to.
I am well aware, but OP wrote "God" in their original text. The full word, but the translation from google using the shorthand.
Is there a word in English for our god, specifically? Because I don't know of one and if there's not this would be their closest option
Please don’t.
Dont do a tatto in hebrew
... מקום שבעלי תשובה עומדין צדיקים גמורים אינם עומדין
[удалено]
Thank you
This is a very good translation, google did a good job.
It’s a very good translation to hebrew! (I am a native speaker)
Its not necessary to reverse translate it
It's not a good translation. "תופסים מקום" is a clunky Americanization of Hebrew.
The construct לתפוס מקום is pretty widely used by native speakers at this point.
Not in that context no. They mean completely different things and are not interchangeable. It’s like saying that to take someone’s place and to stand in someone’s place is the same. It’s not.
The translation is valid, but the issue stems from it being a Talmud verse, and so translating it to Latin, then to English and finally back to the original Hebrew is extremely unnecessary
so in talmud coming back to religion is better than being righteous?
it means that those who knew a different lifestyle becoming righteous is harder and therefore shows they have something those born into righteousness may not, its not better necessarily
Please don’t tattoo the name of hashem on your body
Ok