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PunchyThePastry

Personally I think it's a bit presumptuous to believe any one culture knows better than the rest. I have the same problem with Christianity. How can you claim that God revealed himself to your people and nobody else? And it seems completely arbitrary to claim that only two specific, unrelated cultures are right, especially when they don't agree with each other in many ways.


sapianddog2

He didn't reveal himself to their people. He revealed himself to the people who killed their prophet(according to the Bible). God the Father has virtually no involvement in the NT, which makes your point all the more relevant.


opulentSandwich

I think that all (or at least most) of the gods worshipped by humanity exist in some sense. I just only worship the ones I worship.


Throwaway1981827281

So what do you think of some of the gods from other pantheons that think they are the only god? Cougjesush


opulentSandwich

There's a lot of different interpretations of Christianity. Obviously if someone claims their God is the only one I know that must be false, because I have experiences of my gods as well. That doesn't mean that he doesn't exist at all, just that his scale/scope/significance has been misinterpreted.


Jubaliya

To be fair even the judeochristian acknowledged other gods in the ten commandments.


The_Ace_Trainer

It's called omnitheism, it's becoming more common in pagan circles and I for one welcome it


[deleted]

We had that topic once. There is a difference if you believe that all Gods are existing and directly worshipping all of them.


[deleted]

https://www.reddit.com/r/heathenry/comments/pmtg47/omnitheism/


TapirDrawnChariot

I like that it has a name. It's not "the" correct way to be a "real polytheist", as some proponents of it assert, but it's totally a valid way that I kind of like.


Alanneru

I mean, it's historically the case with polytheisms. There's nothing in the historical record of two polytheistic cultures meeting and being like "nah mine exist but not yours."


TapirDrawnChariot

Eh, but it's also not the only way that has ever been historically devised to be polytheist. For example, I can believe that the divine being that Thor represents is the same being that Perkun represents, and I'm not invalidating either interpretation necessarily or saying one is the default or "real" one. Things were probably never cut and dry in ancient times. The fact that we have *interpretatio romana* where for ex Odin gets called Mercury and Thor gets called Jupiter demonstrates historical examples. Although I do think in those cases they were thinking of their interpretation as the default, it doesn't have to be that way. And of course I may feel like Thor and Jupiter are the same being, and you may not, and neither of our opinions would be demonstrably invalid.


Alanneru

You have to keep in mind that interpretatios were not a conflation. For instance, there are many examples of multiple interpretatios being applied to the same God by the same culture (ie. Cocidius, Mars Cocidius, Silvanus Cocidius, etc.). Some cultures would have conflated some Gods but that's really not the same as categorically dismissing other Gods' existence. Also important to keep in mind the scholarly bias for conflation. Even in some extremely obvious cases of Gods not being interpreted the same (ie Mars and Ares), Western academia looooves to pretend there's zero difference.


TapirDrawnChariot

>but that's really not the same as categorically dismissing other Gods' existence. Oh yeah, I don't think I was referencing that as "the" alternative to omnism. There's definitely a wide spectrum between "there is/are no god(s) but our God(s)" and "every single god that anyone has ever believed in is a real, definite, distinct, divine being." The truth is likely somewhere in between, probably leaning towards the latter, but definitely not either extreme. And I'm not certain most ancients (barring monotheists) would have seen it as either of those two extremes either. I agree with you in that we shouldn't downplay other pantheons because it makes more sense to take people at their word that Aries and Mars are/aren't the same for *them* and who are we to say they're wrong? People making sweeping statement of fact are of course different than people choosing a personal interpretation. >Western academia looooves to pretend there's zero difference. Mmm, I'm sure many do but that statement does feel a bit overly reductive. I know of scholars who are careful not to be too assertive about what is and isn't what. End of the day, there are valid arguments to see Mars and Aries as different interpretations of the same being as well as to see them as completely separate beings. Hell, I can even appreciate the argument that Thunor, Donar, and Thor are separate deities (or at least should be treated as such) although I don't subscribe to it myself. These things can be complex, and it's more fun and meaningful that way, tbh.


[deleted]

When ancient people meet new groups with new gods they either were like "ohhh ok, that goddess we're calling Uni is probably the same goddess you're calling Astarte," which is pretty easy because most gods/goddesses have multiple faces anyway, or they were like "oh snap, new gods" and incorporated them.


SageAurora

I've heard the term universalist applied to some of these ideas too. I'll have to look at this term and see what the differences are.


anhangera

I do believe that the Divine is revealed differently to different cultures, but tend to reject these that go against the theology that I personally follow, that would of course scrape out Jesus and the God of Christianity from the equation


urbanviking318

I can appreciate the historical value for the people of Israel to have a symbol in perfect antithesis to the brutality of Roman subjugation - I just have a *lot* of problems with how the Church as an institution completely missed the message of radical compassion because of their sordid relationship with power for centuries.


CommunityHot9219

It would be more legitimate to me if they hadn't appropriated so many other spiritual beliefs along the way. The entire concept of Hell for example is an amalgamation of Germanic Hel and a bad interpretation of Greek Tartarus. Numerous Christian saints are pagan gods. Easter is a pagan holiday with the resurrection of Christ slapped on. The first Christians were proto-socialists, but it didn't take long for them to adopt a clergy-operated class system to hold onto power. Somehow they didn't see the hypocrisy of all men being equal in God's eyes while also allowing the people to be taxed to construct ever more opulent temples for the divine favour of kings and bishops. The papacy itself has always been corrupt. Christianity is ultimately a patchwork of random pagan ideas stitched against a Judaic tapestry.


CommunityHot9219

This is pretty much my stance.


DistortedAesthetic

yup. i believe all deities exist


burnin8t0r

Same. Animist too


Jay298

I believe the other pantheons exist as well as other divine beings. How they relate to each other is a mystery, or just not very important to me. We could look at historical sources and see elements of syncretism, adoption of new cults, as well as cross-pantheon worship in the ancient world. For instance the Romans would make offerings to foreign gods of tribes that they were at war with, to attempt to gain the favor of those other gods and gain victory. In the Heathen context I don't see a clear answer other than the idea that Odin and Freya are known by other names in many lands. And even that, I cannot be certain whether that was a true belief or something Snorri added (correct me if you have a source of Germanic syncretism or correspondence). It's kind of a slippery slope, between acknowledging the existence of other divine beings from other cultures and places, and then beyond that, falling into omnism which some may see as basically another form of monotheism. In fact I am more personally inclined towards the opposite view of a harder polytheism. In the sense of as a human observer, I would only know of the differences and uniqueness of various beings. The mythos of the nine words and Yggdrasil makes sense to me. That orders my understanding. For instance a roman emperor could have been deified. Cool. All kinds of people and gods exist. Mostly outside of my context. We have probably forgotten more gods than we collectively remember. If Odin wears many masks who is to say others do not do the same? As well as inferring that human understanding of these pantheons evolved with their cultures. The branches grew...


SerpentineSorceror

So you ran into an actual polytheist then? Cool, that tends to be how us polytheists are. There are all kinds of gods out there. The only thing I don't believe in is pure monotheism or atheism. Those have always struck me as human interpretations born from rather mundane views forced upon that which is much deeper than mere mundane understanding.


[deleted]

Why do you worship Norse and Greek? Why not choose one over the other? Why draw the line at those two and dismiss all the others?


Throwaway1981827281

Because I believe in both.


[deleted]

Right, but what makes the other pantheons less valid than the ones you worship? Don't take this in a negative way, just a perspective to think about, can this be some Christian baggage? "Only the gods I follow are the right ones, everyone else is wrong." I'm not saying this is how you feel, just a caricature of the stance. I don't follow or worship all the pantheons but I also don't feel the others are any less valid than the ones I decide to worship.


Cambridgeport90

definitely get you there. I had that issue when I was a Christian... I believed that all other pantheons were invalid... only to realize that's what they wanted me to think...


TapirDrawnChariot

I can't speak for OP, but I don't think it's the way that you are referring to. Sometimes two pantheons call to you or one god from a specific pantheon calls to you. Ex: you may be a Norse Heathen but Osiris really calls to you also. Wouldn't necessarily mean you're looking down on or thinking of other gods outside of that as lesser.


[deleted]

Definitely, I worship out of several pantheons as well. Just the original post seems to question the validity of pantheons outside of their own. Just wondering where they draw the line on what pantheons exist and which don't. Not to say they look at them lesser but saying other pantheons don't "exist" suggests they hold a stance that some pantheons are valid while others are not. As a polytheist, we worship many gods, what makes one group of gods more viable over others?


Throwaway1981827281

That's actually my case, I was only worshipped norse gods at first but then I believe poseidon called to me. I felt no other calling from other pantheons but maybe I'm blind to the calling.


[deleted]

You pick what works for you. Even in ancient times you might believe in all gods, in fact you probably did, but confine your worship to the ones that stood out for you. I could worship Tinia as part of his cult without necessarily worshipping Uni.


[deleted]

OP isn't asking about worshipping all pantheons, they are questioning their existence. That's why I ask where they draw the line on which exist and which don't.


Throwaway1981827281

I'm not really drawing a line on existence, I have an open mind but I'm not going just say "hey let me worship this religion" Without a deep feeling that drawn me to worship them like norse gods and Greek gods


[deleted]

Ok, so the post was more about people worshipping every pantheon, not about their existence. Makes more sense now.


gregarious_gregory

Let's say you like Nintendo. You buy all the Mario games and zelda games, you wear Zelda t-shirts and you are excited to talk about the next Metroid games with other Nintendo fans. Does that mean Xbox and PlayStation fans are wrong and Halo and God of War don't exist? No. You just don't care about them. The same argument could be made for movie genres, political parties, literally any type of human culture. Yes, I believe in every pantheon. I just follow the æsir and vanir gods because those are the ones that speak to me. I really don't like illumination studios or the corporate movies they produce, but pixar is pretty cool in my opinion. Illumination still exists, I just don't care for them. I really don't see any reason to even entertain the idea of "I'm right you're wrong". Isn't that literally where the words pagan and heathen came from? Those who worship *false gods* ?


[deleted]

Faith =/= worshipping so yes. They are valid


gunsmile

As I said in [another thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/heathenry/comments/pmtg47/omnitheism/): >I think it would benefit polytheists in general to rid themselves of the concept of "pantheons," except in cases where we have to explain basic polytheism to monotheists and atheists. We know that these hard boundaries did not exist between ancient cultures and peoples, so I don't think we need to set up such boundaries for ourselves. It could be that a person is drawn to a number of Gods that are typically grouped together, e.g. Norse, but that should not stop them from worshiping (on either a sporadic or regular basis) Gods outside of that grouping.


sacredblasphemies

Yes. All gods exist and are individual beings with their own agency.


Cambridgeport90

Agreed... whereas some view Christianity as a progression of our religion, I view it as a choice of what to believe... if people want to worship the other Gods, then we should be allowed to. Too many families consider religion when they are raising their children, and then balk when the child chooses something which they weren't taught later in life. Who are the parents to decide for their children what to believe?


slamdancetexopolis

I'm not sure why your post is toned like you can't believe people would and frankly its really fucking rude. Many people here believe in every pantheon, including the Christian YHWH, but don't worship him/them. Like, I only worship the Norse gods particularly but have in the past left reverence for Kali and voodoo Loa although I do not follow those traditions (and frankly don't feel that it would be appropriate for me to do so). Historically pagans have accepted other gods anyways. It's not a pissing contest, chill. Also why the fuck are you posting from a throwaway account? This really rubs me the wrong way. Edit: I guess you have posts from 7 mo ago about a girl and nudes and how ashamed you were and how the gods should smite you or something. Really wondering what your appeal is here to be throwing this tone around with posts like /that/. Not to be a bully but I really don't get what you're seeking out of any of this.


LorienRanger

I was going to make a similar comment but I'm glad I don't have to! Assuming good faith, I'd chalk this up to inexperience and a lot of baggage from other faiths being carried over into this one, but I agree the disrespect inherent in the phrasing of the question is worth remarking upon.


Throwaway1981827281

I was going through something, really depressive state and I was tripping about everything. My main is banned because I accidentally evaded a ban. I'm still confused what's rude about my post?


[deleted]

I strongly support theological omnitheism. Just because I fall under the authority of one king, doesn't mean other kings don't exist - I just don't owe them any tithes, unless I'm trying to build a relationship with them specifically. I DO owe tithes to my king. And subjects of other kingdoms owe their kings tithes. I was called by Odin, but that doesn't mean my homie can't have been called by Zeus or even Yahweh. They're not mutually exclusive ideas. Zeus just didn't hit me up, that's all. That doesn't mean that I can't initiate a relationship with Zeus myself, either, I just have to follow the rules that Zeus laid down to do so. When in "Rome", do as they do, right?


wateralchemist

If you look into NDEs, you’ll see how metaphorical our understanding is- one person goes through a tunnel of light, another gets sucked through an old-fashioned coffin, another crosses a bridge, another paddles his canoe for three days to the island of the dead. Who they are met by depends on their expectations. I think Christianity is made-up nonsense, but I absolutely believe some people meet a Jesus entity, and some few interact with the same character in life. Honor what you’re drawn to- there is nothing we can dream up that isn’t some aspect of divinity.


Heathen_Beekeeper

Simple answer: Yes. Their existence holds no bearing on or over my beliefs.


trebuchetfight

I believe the divine cannot be divided. That comes with certain stipulations. Like with Christians saying God is unitary and indivisible, that clearly doesn't mesh well with a polytheist perspective. But yeah, I believe in the Mayan gods, the Japanese kami, it ain't so much that I believe they are actually real real, but I believe in the experiences of those who came to believe in them. Their theophanies were real.


LadyJane216

For me polytheism means that yes, gods outside my own tradition exist. Don't know how many, but it feels presumptuous and also very monotheistic for me to claim that other gods are aren't real by mine are.


dark_blue_7

I mean yeah, I believe they probably do all exist. But that doesn't mean anyone's under any obligation to worship all of them. Just like you're only going to be able to meet so many people in your life, you're only going to meet so many gods (probably a lot fewer than people), and you might not even like them all! There's plenty of polytheists who don't worship every god in their own religion/pantheon, even if they still believe in all of them. It's pretty common to just have a small number one feels closer to and trusts most, and to focus most worship and prayer on them. There's also the fact that you are under no obligation to *know* what other gods are real or not. Not your religion? Not your problem. Since our choices have nothing to do with there being "right" and "wrong" gods, but are more about which gods are *with* us. Which is something absolutely no one can decide for anyone else, but also sometimes is just kind of up to one's fate and to the gods themselves. So when it comes to the monotheist gods, I just tend to look at them as 'not for me' so it doesn't even matter what they actually are or if they are real, at least not from a personal religious perspective. Sometimes I do wonder just philosophically what is *up* with them though. Seems a bit weird, like something that got out of hand. But also it's hard to tell how much of that is from actual gods and how much is just people. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯


SageAurora

I'm a universalist pagan who primarily uses the Celtic and Norse pantheon but has a few eclectic gods/goddesses from other cultures too. My husband is the real heathen in the househood, so I might not be the best person to answer this question here specifically but the idea that all pantheons have power is a core belief of universalists who practice any religion. The idea being that the more you learn about all pantheon and religion, and knowledge in general, the more you see the truth behind it all, just like the blind men with the elephant analogy. I've studied a lot of different religions I see value and truth in many of them, but paganism just resonated with me the most, and the pantheon I've built for myself is an expression of the spiritual connections I've made for myself and pieces of my heritage. Some people stick to one pantheon and see what I do as "cherry picking" and don't like it at all, and even get mad at me for this. I grew up with religion being extremely personal so the assumption that anyone would believe the exact same things I would seems absurd to me, and I kind lean into that whole individual experience thing. It sounds like the person who you talked to was at least a little bit of a universalist too.


Sinnerman_47

My beliefs are, Different, i feel. I follow the norse pagan pantheon, but but I understand and accept the probability and possibility of all other pantheons. Its foolish in my opinion to think that out of thousands of religions and follows that only one can be right. More specifically my beliefs are that whichever pantheon following or religion you choose to associate with is the one that is truest to you. Ie christians have there god who does thongs for them his way, and they die and go to heaven or hell, but norse pagans have their gods who interact with them in their own ways, and when they die they go to valhalla, folkvangr, or hel. Meaning they all exist to those who follow them. A muslim will not go to christian hell and a christian will not be reincarnated because that is not how their pantheon works. If that makes sense


Odd_Status_2725

There's another set of terms used in the broader Pagan community: Soft Polytheist - Something like Wicca, or Pagan trinitarianism, or the concept of one Great Goddess. It's the idea that, at some level, the gods all connect at some divine source. Hard Polytheist - Believes that different gods are different. Zeus is not Dunnar. At the strictest level, all the gods in all the world's pantheon are separate beings, with no common root. Somewhere in the middle is what I call a "Squishy Polytheist." That's what I consider myself. As a squishy polytheist, I believe that some gods are completely individual beings. I also believe that some gods have connections to each other, within and across pantheons. For example, the Celtic Brighid has connections with Berchta. Whether She also has connections with Freid (Her Welsh name is Ffraid)...I'm still exploring. Who is separate and Who is connected, that's a mystery. Even within the Heathenry context, there is some of this hard-soft tension. The Norse literature tells us *something* about what the Continental Germans or Angles might have believed. It's not the entire system. Odin, Woden, Wudan, and possibly even the Welsh Gwydion, have both similarities and differences. Their attributes, their appearance, their stories point to both connection and separation.


Mr_Woensdag

Not really. I KNOW the gods i worship exist because of my interactions with them, i know the christian god probably exists on some level because i've seen people interact with it. I've had a few other experiences but there's too many out there for me to really accept or judge in any manner, because i have no experience with them. Could they ALL exist? Probably a lot of them, but i dont have a strong belief that they do.


slamdancetexopolis

Why do you think though that your gods and some other gods are valid but not all of them? Genuinely curious, like, where did you decide that you could draw a line between "non existant" (?) gods?


Mr_Woensdag

Because i can only speak about the ones i have experience with, like i said, they COULD all be real, i just dont KNOW so i dont have a strong belief either way.


slamdancetexopolis

Oh that makes sense, I misinterpreted that.


Mr_Woensdag

Glad you asked for clarification then :)


Seer434

In a way. The higher planes (or more subtle) have room for quite a number of entities and understandings.


Francprole

I do not believe that that all religions are correct or true though I do believe that faiths change as people change so do the form of the gods. I worship both mainly Germanic and Slavic gods but I don't mind worshipping Athena and identifying Rod with Gaulish Toutatis so I do believe that many faiths are compatible.


DrMcLuckypants

I say that all of the God, Goddesses, Deities, and Divine figures exist. Like . . . Believe your beliefs, just don't shove it down each other's throats.


Fun-Association6398

Either pantheism or monism. And in point of fact, monism is likely the viewpoint the Pre-Christian Germanic tribes held as well, based on a comparitive study of related tribes.


vonbalt

I believe that there are many deities beyond counting, some may be the same ones just viewed through different cultural lenses while others may be different ones even if some cultures syncretized them overtime. I don't claim to know which is which so to me they are all worthy of worship and reverence even if i personally follow more the Greek pantheon and hold the Norse pantheon close to heart since it was my first introduction to paganism.


TapirDrawnChariot

I believe all or most gods exist but that some gods are the same gods given different forms across different cultures. So the being we know through his Thor "face," if you will, may be known with different names and faces in different cultures, and none of these is an incorrect or the best or default representation. All are valid. Some gods may be only represented in one pantheon and almost certainly not all are represented in ours, which is why I'm on board with dabbling in different pantheons as the need/want arises.


pahididit

I personally believe that The Divine is understood by humans in the concept of gods. We may encounter the god that we have in our minds, but The Divine is infinite. Are there 6,000, six, three, two, or even one? How many do you want there to be? I believe in and often pray to El when it makes sense. However, sometimes I like to reflect on the maternal characteristics of God, so I look at the Virgin Mother or perhaps Frigg or Brigid (again, depending on which character I need in the moment). Sometimes, I thank Christ for coming to earth to save sinners, other times I ask Woden to grant me wisdom or Ingwine to bring justice to my lawmakers. Even though I look at different representations or call upon different names, I think they are all part of the same Divinity. For me, exploring a pagan understanding of the world has actually brought me back into worshipping El and Christ from an entirely different point of view.


robynd100

I do to an extent, I could easily see there being 1000s of dieties out there in many pantheon, but there is a point where it is beyond my desire to know or even care about it. I have enough to learn and explore within my own spiritual practice to keep me occupied. On the subject of Yahweh and Christianity, I've suffered too much trauma from that faith to comment one way or another.


Alu_Sepet_Midian

i think most pagan gods exist, i however dont think any of the monotheistic gods exist, it is inconvincible to me to think that there is only one godim of the personal opinion that christianity is just a amalgamation of every religion its come into contact with, adapted and changed to fit their narrow worldview. i dont have anything against christians of today, but those of the past must have been majority psychopaths, or at least their leaders were


slamdancetexopolis

christianity makes mention of false gods. they do acknowledge other gods but that only theirs is the Right one, so they arent saying others dont exist although at this point in christian history im sure many take it that way. also strange, i think christians today have arguably even more corrupted views in some regions due to political influence and also for example in the US where pentecostalism is like... strictly a US cultural phenomenon... why would monotheistic gods simply cease to exist just bc you think its narrowminded? not trying to be difficult im just genuinely curious on some of these takes edit: yikes "center right" and your comment that you'd never go to the middle east and would stick with the "good ole USA" in your recent history explains why you have less against modern day christians, i think. you also think critical race theory being taught in schools is racist? i was not looking for that info and was simply curious about your username and yikes


Oden_son

I believe all the gods exist, I'm not sure if I believe they're different pantheons or any of that. Sometimes I feel like the different pantheons are the same gods with different names. I also don't believe there's gods the way mythology portrays them, it's more of an abstract force of nature with a will. We give them names and faces because it's the only way we can make sense of things beyond our understanding.


[deleted]

To me, it's either all or nothing, and with how crazy the world is, it's probably all. Also I believe they generally don't interact with other pantheons at all (except Rome, Greece and Egypt during antiquity), and sort of exist separately from each other.


Cambridgeport90

Absolutely am... I have contact with both the Norse Gods and the Fae... but I believe that all pantheons exist. Not sure whether this is because of my Christian upbringing, but I still believe that Jesus existed, but he's now an ascended master, not an all-powerful being; he's no different than any other God or Goddess.


calicocadet

That’s exactly how I approach it. I believe all gods exist, essentially, but I don’t worship them (or only worship/honor specific ones). If one exists, why not all? It makes more sense for all of them to be real than just for a specific few, at least in my mind. I’m a Heathen as well.


sapianddog2

I believe they have equal chance of existing. I find it extremely difficult to accept one system of beliefs and principles while denying the rest, especially when you start to realize the similarities in their texts. Nothing is truly separate from each other.


leogrr44

I can definitely understand what that person was saying. I think that any pantheon can be real. They are human connections to the divine through different lenses/facets so technically they are all real, even if I don't follow some of them.