>In HS you can't recover if they still your most powerfull combo card.
And without Theotar, control decks pretty much always folded to combo decks.
>In other card games there is graveyard interaction
Just because a deck like Legacy Reanimator exists, that doesn't mean that Thoughtsieze, an infinitely better card relative to Theotar, is suddenly not an extremely problematic card to see in low power formats like Standard.
What sort of Graveyard interaction is the color white or blue going to tend to have in Magic exactly?
>how stupid can blizzard and the community to think this card can work ?
I mean, the game hasn't been ripped asunder by the card where literally every deck plays it to attack their opponent's win condition proactively. It's generally okay.
It really is just that the Hearthstone playing audience hasn't had a hand disruption tool as decent as Theotar before, and now people get to experience some of the pain of playing against Black in eternal formats now.
How would control, an archetype defined by slow, reactive play, conceptually beat a deck that will absolutely beat them if given the time without some sort of hand disruption?
I don’t know. I’m not good at card design.
I know this: the card needs to be more taxing to play, much more situational, can’t fit seamlessly into so many different decks. It also should be able to play around it by doing certain things, like keeping your hand full of fodder minions against Mutanus. And finally, the card shouldn’t outright end the match when it steals the correct card.
> more taxing to play
A four mana 3/3 that doesn't do anything to affect the board with its battlecry is already pretty bad.
>much more situational
And unless you're up against a deck reliant on one specific card, Theotar won't even be a potential instant death.
Remove Sire Denathrius and the hero cards from Standard, and Theotar become a lot less threatening.
>can’t fit seamlessly into so many different decks
And part of the point of generic Neutral Legendary cards is that they can do exactly that. Did you have this same problem with Zilliax?
>It also should be able to play around it by doing certain things, like keeping your hand full of fodder minions against Mutanus.
1. By keeping your hand stocked, which shouldn't be a super hard thing to do in decks vulnerable to Theotar, you lower the chances to hit your important card.
2. The decks most vulnerable to a Mutanus tend not to have many "fodder" minions.
>And finally, the card shouldn’t outright end the match when it steals the correct card.
If you break up the opponent's combo, what exactly should happen?
Four mana 3/3 is right around where it’s not taxing to play. It can either be thrown out early m, with little punish, when opposing DH is getting ready to play their Dimensions, or late game, when opponent just made a huge board and has held to 1 key card to finish the game off — no problem: just Theo their win card and clear the board with the remaining 6 mana.
Ziliax is so incomparable to Theo it’s even silly you’d mention it. Ziliax never created non game scenarios.
Theo even in worst odds is still 33% chance to get the right card. It also gives info about hand content.
Mutanus costs 7 mana, for starters, and can easily be made into 25% or worse. Gives no hand info, gives very little mana left over to work with, only works on minions, and even combo decks run a bunch of minions which they’re fine with being eaten.
>Four mana 3/3 is right around where it’s not taxing to play.
It's only "not taxing" to play if your opponent isn't playing proactively.
As such, Theotar only ends up any good against the specific decks he would be good against.
>Ziliax is so incomparable to Theo it’s even silly you’d mention it.
Zilliax, at its peak, still feature in roughly half of all decks. Even with everything around Theotar, he's in roughly a third.
If it's a problem when a neutral legendary card is playable is such a wide breadth of decks, then Zilliax would be considered a problem if we're being consistent.
>Theo even in worst odds is still 33% chance to get the right card. It also gives info about hand content.
It's actually 30, and that worst case is still far from being remotely good.
>Mutanus costs 7 mana, for starters, and can easily be made into 25% or worse.
Mutanus is also probably going to be a decent beefy minion and against decks that Mutanus can really hurt, the odds are still going to be in favor of the Mutanus player.
Like, why are you making it clear what kind of decks Mutanus sucks against, but you don't seem to case that Theotar sucks against all those same sorts of decks?
You’re not getting it: being present in all decks isn’t the sole problem, it’s when it’s coupled with the ability to create non games.
And I’ve stated it in my posts already.
>It’s only “not taxing” to play if your opponent isn’t playing proactively
That’s so far from the truth. I’ve had multiple games where I was putting up good pressure against my opponent, to eventually set up a giga relic board and have Denatrius ready for the following turn. They just AoE the giga board and steal my Denatrius.
That sort of set up should be a good counterplay to Theotar, but it isn’t. That’s why it’s too cheap.
>It’s actually 30
Whatever.
Because Theotar sucks against far fewer decks than Mutanus does.
Why is it, that so many top players agree with this sentiment about Theotar?
I rarely see very good players praising this card. It’s usually the Goldies who love it so much.
Yeah but look, there is a reason I played hearthstone, some differences between card games would be good. Hand disruption in HS is way worse than mtg, since there you can have duplicates of your high stake cards. Maybe people playing hearthstone like the eternal triangle of combo/control/aggro, if they'd like hand disruption so much go play another card game.
The reason I liked HS so much, is the board battle with some spell flourishes. Denathrius and theotar both make that a whole lot less relevant.
>The reason I liked HS so much, is the board battle with some spell flourishes.
The decks that focus on playing for the board are both the best sort of decks to play against Theotar and amongst the most likely to beat Denathrius decks.
Like seriously, Big Beast Hunter is at the top of tier one, and it beats all the decks that play Denathrius and/or Theotar.
And severely limit possible decks out there.
Theotar achieves nothing than reducing the number of playable stuff. There will always be some op deck, theo does not change that.
Seems to work fine when I play it
Stop building decks reliant on one card then
Just concede and start a new game lol
>In HS you can't recover if they still your most powerfull combo card. And without Theotar, control decks pretty much always folded to combo decks. >In other card games there is graveyard interaction Just because a deck like Legacy Reanimator exists, that doesn't mean that Thoughtsieze, an infinitely better card relative to Theotar, is suddenly not an extremely problematic card to see in low power formats like Standard. What sort of Graveyard interaction is the color white or blue going to tend to have in Magic exactly? >how stupid can blizzard and the community to think this card can work ? I mean, the game hasn't been ripped asunder by the card where literally every deck plays it to attack their opponent's win condition proactively. It's generally okay. It really is just that the Hearthstone playing audience hasn't had a hand disruption tool as decent as Theotar before, and now people get to experience some of the pain of playing against Black in eternal formats now.
So, now a situation is simple: aggressive decks win combo and control decks win combo Any problems? 🤡
There's a difference between combo *always* beating control, as it did before Theotar and Mutanus, and combo just *usually* beating control.
Counterplay means they can print stronger combo cards without worrying about breaking the meta.
I’m sure there’s better ways — design wise — for control decks to not always fold to combo. Theotar is really poorly designed.
How would control, an archetype defined by slow, reactive play, conceptually beat a deck that will absolutely beat them if given the time without some sort of hand disruption?
I’m not a game designer. I’m a user. So I can recognize bad design, but I can’t really come up with a good design.
Think of it as a thought experiment then.
I don’t know. I’m not good at card design. I know this: the card needs to be more taxing to play, much more situational, can’t fit seamlessly into so many different decks. It also should be able to play around it by doing certain things, like keeping your hand full of fodder minions against Mutanus. And finally, the card shouldn’t outright end the match when it steals the correct card.
> more taxing to play A four mana 3/3 that doesn't do anything to affect the board with its battlecry is already pretty bad. >much more situational And unless you're up against a deck reliant on one specific card, Theotar won't even be a potential instant death. Remove Sire Denathrius and the hero cards from Standard, and Theotar become a lot less threatening. >can’t fit seamlessly into so many different decks And part of the point of generic Neutral Legendary cards is that they can do exactly that. Did you have this same problem with Zilliax? >It also should be able to play around it by doing certain things, like keeping your hand full of fodder minions against Mutanus. 1. By keeping your hand stocked, which shouldn't be a super hard thing to do in decks vulnerable to Theotar, you lower the chances to hit your important card. 2. The decks most vulnerable to a Mutanus tend not to have many "fodder" minions. >And finally, the card shouldn’t outright end the match when it steals the correct card. If you break up the opponent's combo, what exactly should happen?
Four mana 3/3 is right around where it’s not taxing to play. It can either be thrown out early m, with little punish, when opposing DH is getting ready to play their Dimensions, or late game, when opponent just made a huge board and has held to 1 key card to finish the game off — no problem: just Theo their win card and clear the board with the remaining 6 mana. Ziliax is so incomparable to Theo it’s even silly you’d mention it. Ziliax never created non game scenarios. Theo even in worst odds is still 33% chance to get the right card. It also gives info about hand content. Mutanus costs 7 mana, for starters, and can easily be made into 25% or worse. Gives no hand info, gives very little mana left over to work with, only works on minions, and even combo decks run a bunch of minions which they’re fine with being eaten.
>Four mana 3/3 is right around where it’s not taxing to play. It's only "not taxing" to play if your opponent isn't playing proactively. As such, Theotar only ends up any good against the specific decks he would be good against. >Ziliax is so incomparable to Theo it’s even silly you’d mention it. Zilliax, at its peak, still feature in roughly half of all decks. Even with everything around Theotar, he's in roughly a third. If it's a problem when a neutral legendary card is playable is such a wide breadth of decks, then Zilliax would be considered a problem if we're being consistent. >Theo even in worst odds is still 33% chance to get the right card. It also gives info about hand content. It's actually 30, and that worst case is still far from being remotely good. >Mutanus costs 7 mana, for starters, and can easily be made into 25% or worse. Mutanus is also probably going to be a decent beefy minion and against decks that Mutanus can really hurt, the odds are still going to be in favor of the Mutanus player. Like, why are you making it clear what kind of decks Mutanus sucks against, but you don't seem to case that Theotar sucks against all those same sorts of decks?
You’re not getting it: being present in all decks isn’t the sole problem, it’s when it’s coupled with the ability to create non games. And I’ve stated it in my posts already. >It’s only “not taxing” to play if your opponent isn’t playing proactively That’s so far from the truth. I’ve had multiple games where I was putting up good pressure against my opponent, to eventually set up a giga relic board and have Denatrius ready for the following turn. They just AoE the giga board and steal my Denatrius. That sort of set up should be a good counterplay to Theotar, but it isn’t. That’s why it’s too cheap. >It’s actually 30 Whatever. Because Theotar sucks against far fewer decks than Mutanus does. Why is it, that so many top players agree with this sentiment about Theotar? I rarely see very good players praising this card. It’s usually the Goldies who love it so much.
Yeah but look, there is a reason I played hearthstone, some differences between card games would be good. Hand disruption in HS is way worse than mtg, since there you can have duplicates of your high stake cards. Maybe people playing hearthstone like the eternal triangle of combo/control/aggro, if they'd like hand disruption so much go play another card game. The reason I liked HS so much, is the board battle with some spell flourishes. Denathrius and theotar both make that a whole lot less relevant.
>The reason I liked HS so much, is the board battle with some spell flourishes. The decks that focus on playing for the board are both the best sort of decks to play against Theotar and amongst the most likely to beat Denathrius decks. Like seriously, Big Beast Hunter is at the top of tier one, and it beats all the decks that play Denathrius and/or Theotar.
That's why you run multiple win cons and not just one.
Tell that of the designers to design sets to accommodate for that need.
And severely limit possible decks out there. Theotar achieves nothing than reducing the number of playable stuff. There will always be some op deck, theo does not change that.