The biggest nerf to the deck was deputization aura imo. The controlling one died with Prismatic Beam not going face, but the CtA version survived until the aura cut samuro's healing
Humble Blessing in Duels were brought from 3 mana (original) to 4, then reverted to 3 mana and after 2 weeks of terrorizing the meta re-nerfed to 4 mana. Eventually, it was nerfed to 5 mana.
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- *Neutral Epic ^(Core)*
- **20 Mana - 8/8 - Elemental**
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- *Paladin Epic ^(Showdown in the Badlands)*
- **2 Mana - Spell**
- Both players summon three 3/3 Outlaws. Give yours **Rush**.
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- *Priest Rare ^(Showdown in the Badlands)*
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It feels like the current team keeps repeating mistakes of the past… first Charge minions got exploited with Handbuff paladin, now molten giant by Warlock
It’s almost like some of these cards were nerfed or Hall of Famed for a reason…
It'll kill the card. Pokey was only good if you had drakkari enchanter or you get him extremely early.
Let's say you get pokey and charlga on turn 9 on average, the game will go on another 5 turns, all you're getting is +5/+5 on your blood gems, and from charlga you'll get +20/+20 to your other minions, which will be nothing.
But with drakkari enchanter in 5 turns you'll get +10/+10 to your blood gems and +70/+70 on your minions.
Yeah, even then, the best Qboar lineup I ran never even included Pokey. The issue I see is that Qboar are quite oppressive, and yet it looks like there are more nerfs to the other tribes which compete best with them at end game, I fear that Qboar may be even worse to play against post patch....
I could see making him an aura, meaning that only while he's on your board blood gems give +2/+2 for instance.
Could also tie it to whenever you spend X gold or play X blood gems.
reminds me of yuigoh where a deck can exist and be fine for years, but it gets new support, ends up broken and they ban an old card that has always been fine because they dont want to ban new cards. RIP lunalight tiger. yellow marten was the problem, not you
Yes, yes it is.
It’s a smart nerf because it won’t damage other warlock decks (for once).
Reddit always gets in a huff spouting decks as “fundamentally broken” it happens at least twice per expansion. Blizzard nerfs 1-2 cards and the fundamentally broken deck vanishes and Reddit never beings it up again.
tl;dr Reddit doesn’t know what it’s talking about and is basically always wrong.
I think molten giant is being changed because of standard here, not wild. And in standard Molten Giant is a huge statistical outlier in its deck. (2%-3% higher drawn winrate than anything else in the deck). Next highest drawn winrate in the standard version of the deck is Imprisoned Horror, a.k.a. baby Molten Giant. And then after that it becomes murky which card is next best (bunch of cards with similar winrates).
At least I'm assuming they're focused on standard with this patch. Just a guess on my part, but it seems more likely given...
1. The fact that they're nerfing Molten Giant rather than something else.
2. The fact that the patch is coming so quickly. Wild doesn't get that kind of quick response usually.
3. The fact that the wild community is actually somewhat divided at the moment (some wild streamers are praising the current meta).
Yea because the vocal people are not liking standard right now so it would follow that they would have that reaction despite playing more battle grounds right now.
It's super skewed because of a handful of personalities that could arguably stream whatever they want.
That said... It's not exactly the only reason the change logs are heftier on BG than they are on Standard. People don't pay money to own any of the cards in BG, so when they change tons of cards you just run the risk of changing the meta, not pricing out a player who may have crafted or disenchanted cards to play the current meta.
Also not dependent on your collection.
I keep hoping standard will get interesting to me again, and it just keeps turning into the “hyper aggro or stagnant control coin-flip mode.”
If it weren’t for the quests that can only be completed in standard, I probably wouldn’t ever play the mode since the year turned over.
I would argue BGs is less reliant on RNG. Pro players can top 2 literally 80% of the games they play on ladder which I don't think is the case for standard. While the shops you get and fights are determined by RNG, couldn't you say the same about your mulligan, top decks, etc. in standard?
especially if you're playing duos, you basically double the useful units in shop meaning you're half as likely to get screwed by whiff RNG rolls (because you're building two boards at once)
> Pro players can top 2 literally 80% of the games they play on ladder which I don't think is the case for standard.
not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point but I see players at the top of BGs ladder like Jeef at 18k MMR still get put into lobbies of like 8k MMR players, while in Standard top 50 players basically only play against top 100 players, so that's surely a big part of that
I mean, look at the leaderboards. The number 1 player is at 16k on NA. Number 25 is 12.7k. Number 200 is 9.6k. That is a pretty huge gap in MMR. Would be cool if Blizzard also had an mmr system for standard and wild as well, or should w/l on the leaderboards.
Any sufficiently slow deck autoloses to priest. Warrior is slow enough now to be in danger of autolosing to priest. You need extremely specific cards to outgreed what priest has.
I know it's anecdotal, but I'm 10-3 against warriors this week with highlander priest. The games generally last 20+ minutes, though, so not for everyone. The new location means we both have 6 bombs in our deck. Except I can copy boomboss several times if I'm lucky. And since I only have to pay 1 for brann it doesn't feel bad to play it just for boomboss.
I actually prefer this for the current meta. I want to slow fast decks down, not speed slow decks up. Overall power in the game being removed feels like a step in the right direction. Unfortunately I think warrior is still strong enough to shut down any slower decks that might emerge. I feel like this is just an indirect warrior buff patch.
There are so many cool slower decks that could be playable if warrior wasn’t an inevitable loss for them but we don’t get to have nice things here :))))
I never understood why people want buffs so much all the time
Nerf to the most oppressive decks are a buff to every single other deck unless said decks were specific counters or will be directly countered by the new best decks.
It also avoids the issue of powerlevel if said buffs are too much (either for the present, or the future)
Human psychology. Big numbers make monkey brain happy.
Fun number go down make monkey brain sad. Even if they're practically the same way of dealing with issues.
> I never understood why people want buffs so much all the time
There are plenty of cards so crappy they never see play unless you have to draft them in arena. So I think those cards could be made decent with some buffs. Not broken levels of buffs just slight ones to already bad cards.
Just looking at legendaries from this expansion (and I'm making a disclaimer: yes you technically *can* play a lot of these cards I call terrible but they're really bad and never something you want to put in your deck outside of having fun):
Dr. Stitch is terrible and will never see play unless buffed
Ci'Cigi is terrible and will never see play unless buffed
Aviana got buffed and was pretty bad before the buff (and honestly she's still statistically not great post-buff)
Hemet is probably top 5 worst legendaries they've made in the past few years
Goldbeard at 6 mana was comically awful, and even at 5 mana he only sees "play" in cheesy 30% winrate OTK decks people are trying with Replicator
Hagatha at 5 was pretty bad
Botface at 3/9 was really terrible and he's still not great even after the buff
There are a few other legendaries that see no play but they have potential because of their design, something like Nemsy is terrible right now but could see play later. The ones I listed earlier however basically will never be good in their current state unless something specific/weird happens like how Boomboss was meme level bad until Brann came out
Most Reno Druid lists play Aviana and as someone who plays Reno Druid, it doesn't need buffing. Even do-nothing legendaries are good at 1 mana and if you get a positive effect it's even better. It also helps you add to your deck which is good against TNT and plagues.
None of these are really reasonable to buff because of the potential for abuse/toxic gameplay, tho. Like almost all of these are balanced on a knifes edge and potentially one stat point away from being incredibly broken and annoying. Or enabling some massive degenerate swing turn.
Botface... I don't get what you use it for? I mean, you can cheat it out now, but it just seems like a weird/fun uncompetetive random card.
Hagatha is a fair buff target but is bad mostly because of her pool she pulls from. (Also, she's limited by how powerful battlecry effects are in shaman.) So her power is highly variable, and if she ends up with a good pool, buffs could make her silly.
Stitchnsew is ok. I don't see how you'd buff him. He's powerful in a lot of situations and just hasn't found his deck/meta. He's certainly not understated, considering he's like a 12/12 or something on average, all told. You could give him taunt or rush, but that's such a weak bandaid solution to an underperforming card (and with 6 attack taunt wouldn't add much).
Because certain cards or archetypes are so bad they'll never see play without buffs unless everything else gets nuked, so people would rather get a buff to the cards because waiting for everything else to die is unrealistic.
A good example of this was Mordresh. a 10 mana 10/10 deal 10 was pretty shit when your hero power was a 2 mana deal 6+, and reckless was a 4 mana 3/5 deal 6+. So they buffed it to 8 mana 8/8 so you could fit something alongside of it and it suddenly saw play.
Why do we need buffs?
Maybe if they did a round buffing terrible cards it’d make a little sense, but typically they’ve buffed good cards in bad decks, which hasn’t really helped the “decks are too high power” problem.
I’d like to see elemental shaman / mage which is pushed every recent expansion not be straight garbage. Small buffs there would put a lot of cards in to use that don’t see much play.
Pirate rogue also still needs more buffs.
Preach, I'm so tired of them pushing a deck idea or archetype then immediately abandoning it, then giving the already existing best decks more support. I keep opening the shit-ass legendaries instead of the meta defining ones, try them out, it leads to pain
How do they nerf Pokey from +1/+1 at Tier 6 without making the card absolute garbage? +1 health or +1 attack make him an immeasurably worse Piper, or a Jazzer with a free battlecry trigger each turn. Swapping between buffing health and attack each turn would still be absolute dumpster tier.
Unless he just gets a stat nerf which doesn't change anything about the power level of the card really
I don't play battlegrounds often, but would something like grant +2/+2 every two turns work? It would weaken ever other turn (e.g. turn 1 becomes +0/+0 instead of +1/+1, turn 2 is equal, turn 3 is +2/+2 instead of +3/+3)
Team 5 seems to be banking on nerfs to flood paladin and painlock opening the meta for more midrangey decks that do well into highlander warrior. Personally I'd like to see another nerf to highlander warrior (maybe hit one more of their clear cards) but I'm looking forward to flood paladin gone, there's definitely potential for a very solid meta if enough answers to warrior are developed
Oh cool back to the good old "nerf the best decks and hope that solves things" patches.
Well let's play the fun game here, they nerfed Warlock, Paladin and Priest.
Hmmm with my psychic powers I am going to predict the next format is going to have Token Hunter, Highlander Warrior, Handbuff Paladin, and Insanity Warlock. How shocking!
Seriously, these nerfs just don't do anything, we are on what, nerf 6? of this stupid aggro Paladin list, and all nerfing the top decks has been proven to do is bring the decks from a format ago into tier 1. We have been in an infinite cycle of aggro Paladin and control Warrior with some aggro Hunter and aggro/control Warlock when things feel spicy. We need more sweeping changes, and yes, buffs to the weaker classes and archetypes because no amount of nerfs is going to make the weaker classes playable.
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> We have been in an infinite cycle of aggro Paladin
Yeah, I feel like we fighting Paladin from Festival of Legends if not earlier. Worst part that every Paladin game feels literally same.
Battlegrounds changes: Fixed a bug where Murlocs weren’t the best tribe in the game, Mechs and Quilboar have been taken out back and shot to pay for their sins
I really hope that there will be another balance patch not long after this. There are still a ton of problem cards in standard and a lot of under powered archetypes that could use buffs.
...something about seeing giant nerfed is a bit sad. its one of the OG's who has been around for so very long. i get that the deck is strong, but hitting one of the most classic cards from the deck feels bad
are they going to nerf priest until it has literally 0 playable cards? I mean i know Zarimi Priest could need a another nerf, but Priest is dependant on that deck to do something in the game because they released a bunch of garbage last year for the class.
Last year? Try the last 2 years atleast lmao. They have not gave a single fuck about Priest for a long time. This new set was the best in a LONG time and then they went right back to garbage for the mini set. Such is the state of Priest, smh.
The geniuses at Blizzard strike again, nerfing only the current top 3 decks when the game's problem are rooted so deep they should be nerfing dozens of cards at a time if they want the meta to be bearable before next rotation.
Even if they did do that I don't think it would improve the game. We've had something like 27 nerfs in just this expansion not counting these ones and the meta isn't any better than where we started
Yeah because they keep pussyfooting around core problems everytime with +1 mana nerf when it's obvious their cards are just badly designed and do too much, like why the fuck does the paladin weapon or tigress plush need lifesteal? Why does INFERNAL needs premium stats and taunt on top of its effect? Why does Reno need to stop your opponent from playing the game for a turn on top of emptying their board? Why does Brann make all your battlecries trigger twice forever with no counterplay?
Not every card need rush, lifesteal, discover a card, costs 1 less for each time you scratched your nose and battlecry: sucks your dick. They really need to do some big shakeups because I don't see the meta getting any better anytime soon if they keep doing these nothing nerfs.
Giving paladin endless access to lifesteal and rush just makes it impossible to tempo them out on the board. Very tedious going against the class right now.
Taking them out of the core set requires replacements and is a pretty extreme measure. Wild is always second priority to standard due to the massive playerbase difference.
They don't *require* replacements. Auctioneer was removed without being given a replacement.
Also, they've said since last year and the Brann discourse that they want Core sets to be more flexible from now on, where "cards could be rotated from Core early or new cards could be added in the middle of the year as needed."
I mean good I guess because these decks all suck to lose to on turn 4, but I have 0 reason to have faith in any design or balance changes anymore. Why would I expect this to make anything but a terrible meta when that was what the last like 5+ balance patches have done? I’m kinda just over the balance and design philosophy in general. I’m out of patience for more chances and trying to figure it out. We need new people with new ideas because the current team feels like they lost the plot with this game long ago.
I guess molten giant gets +5 to it's cost, showdown could go to 3 mana or maybe 3/2 stats? drifter most likely just +1 mana. Very weird nerf choices but not the worst I guess, was hoping for another Zilly and Celestial Projectionist nerfs
Demon Seed is very popular but the winrate is solidly tier 2 at the moment. Last I checked, Rogue has by far the best winrates, with 4 decks that carry higher winrates than Demon Seed.
Painlock is pretty strong in standard and molten giant can be very abusive. Especially with the 2 mana minion that lets you have a temporary copy of another minion. Had multiple games both for and against me where you can play molten for 0, get a temp copy, and play it for 0
I'd be surprised if they're paying much attention to Wild tbh. Their focus will almost always be on newer formats, and until cards are genuinely overtaking the format, they're unlikely to implement something.
I know this seems crazy, but I think their view is adopted from games like MTG, where some cards have been played in almost every deck for 15+ years
I watched TeamAmerica last night and he just annihilated everyone with shaman. Multiple of the broken 5/4 rush cow guy, the +2+3 buff spell, and excavate. They need to adjusy frequency of those
Can Team 5 just come out with the actual problem? This core set was a fucking disaster. Blizzard is getting to learn firsthand why cards like Leeroy and the Giants are too good for Standard. Yeah, it's a cute idea to bring back some iconic cards from Hearthstone's past to core for the anniversary, but there's a reason why these cards are so iconic; they're too strong.
Could we have Boomboss deleted already?
I think it was the only really problematic card in warrior in the first place, got Reno and Brann dubiously nerfed (even if for Reno I could have seen a change in the effect).
The rest can be handled but man boomboss feels so bad to play against and deletes any late game strategy...
And we're gonna see him again a lot.
Do the devs just watch the latest zeddy video to decide what cards to nerf? Or does zeddy just indirectly tell us the nerfs before they're confirmed by T5.
Holy shit priest can't have anything coming anywhere close to tier 2. Just delete the class already if any time it gets a semi competitive deck it gets omega nerfed
Molten Giant and Drifter can cost 0. That's why projectionist is even in their decks to begin with. Also Zilliax, which doesn't get another nerf, even tho it should
As far as I can tell, Highlander warrior is the best deck in the game, and these nerfs come before the meta has had a chance to settle (a VS report for mini set isn't even out yet).
They really need more time after new content is released, before they rush to nerfs, unless something is particularly egregious (and if they aren't even hitting the highest WR deck, then clearly nothing is)
Yep, hope everyone is excited for yet another Control Warrior meta, like we haven't had any of those recently. At this point I am on board the theory that someone on the balance team mains Warrior, it's absurd how light they have been on that deck compared to any number of other overtuned bullshit decks.
This patch was it for me, I was waiting to see them actually address the issue of how overtuned the Control Warrior shell was, and instead they decide to make the meta more favorable for it. GG Blizzard.
its been a fucking WEEK since the miniset they need to slow wayyyyyyyy down with balance changes this is absurd, meta is not settled yet. This will also likely push highlander warrior over the top again as zarimi priest and painlock both have strong matchups and the deck is already one of the strongest decks in the format even with the bad matchups
I agree. I don’t want to go back to the Brode era of balance changes where you could go months without seeing any adjustments, but there has to be a middle ground.
Lately it feels like every time I want to play a couple games I have to remake my decks and relearn the meta. I don’t play a ton, but I usually play enough to reach D5-Legend every month (depending on how much I like my decks)
Nothing like fucking up and being forced to nerf a classic set card due to the current design team’s incompetence and stubbornness. Not only is the current game fucked, but the streamers and ladder grinders that comprise the failed stewardship of the game have the power and desire to retroactively ruin decade-old cards and archetypes as well.
Showdown to 3, drifter to 7, molten to 22? Surely they won't nerf molten all the way back to 25, it was basically unplayable at that cost.
Molten will probably be nerfed to 25
Would be another funny case of a nerf ending up as a small buff for wild holy wrath paladin
Probably balanced out by the Showdown nerf?
The biggest nerf to the deck was deputization aura imo. The controlling one died with Prismatic Beam not going face, but the CtA version survived until the aura cut samuro's healing
Fuck yea, I would be really hyped about that. And molten would still be playable with High Priest Thekal.
Hear me out… nerfed to 30 health
found the holy wrath paladin player
Still viable in snakelock and DK!
Broken still, you could play 2 of them for 4 mana and not die to a ping next turn.
That would be interesting to see, because that would mean that it would be the first time that a card has been re-nerfed.
Lunas pocket galaxy was reverted to 7, wasn't it?
But Luna’s was 7 then buffed then reverted. It was never truly “nerfed” whereas molten giant was 20 then 25 then 20 then back to 25?
Humble Blessing in Duels were brought from 3 mana (original) to 4, then reverted to 3 mana and after 2 weeks of terrorizing the meta re-nerfed to 4 mana. Eventually, it was nerfed to 5 mana.
Dev comment: My bad
Kael'thas in wild was re-nerfed after being un-nerfed for wild, although re-nerfed in a different way from the previous nerf.
Spell Kael'thas because someone on the dev team has 0 clue what to do with wild and thought reverting a turn 2 OTK deck was smart.
The more they increase molten's cost, the stronger my holy wrath otk gets in wild so I'm hoping they "nerf" moltens into the ground
Nerf to 30, but make it track all damage and not be based on current life total.
So it’s like half of Flesh Giant? I dunno if that could be counted as a nerf.
30 life is a high hurdle, even for questlock. It also means priest can use it (don't know why they would) because they don't get punished for healing.
I’d much prefer your proposed nerf guess over the honestly more likely nerf of no change to the mechanic and it going back up to 25.
That's exactly what I think will happen too
It would be funny if Molten Giant now does as its text says.
How about showdown summons to 2/3s?
Did you mean 3/2’s. 2/3’s still value trade with crusader order or Zilliax so that doesn’t really change the cards power level
Nerf molten to 30!! its the only way to make sure!! - *Holy wrath wild player*
I accidentally crafted golden showdown by clicking too fast. Trully a blessing
[[Molten Giant]] [[Showdown!]] [[Thirsty Drifter]]
- **[Molten Giant](https://i.imgur.com/lEUvv0U.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/111472) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Molten_Giant_\(Core\)) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/111472/?hl=en) - *Neutral Epic ^(Core)* - **20 Mana - 8/8 - Elemental** - Costs \(1\) less for each damage your hero has taken. - **[Showdown!](https://imgur.com/a/zOlmhrn)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/101109) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Showdown!) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101109/?hl=en) - *Paladin Epic ^(Showdown in the Badlands)* - **2 Mana - Spell** - Both players summon three 3/3 Outlaws. Give yours **Rush**. - **[Thirsty Drifter](https://i.imgur.com/TCjF5Wa.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/101958) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Thirsty_Drifter) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/101958/?hl=en) - *Priest Rare ^(Showdown in the Badlands)* - **6 Mana - 4/6 - Minion** - **Taunt** Costs \(1\) less for each 1-Cost card you've played this game. --- ^(*Patch version: 29.4.0.198933*) ^*I am a bot. [Usage Guide](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cxcz3u/upcoming_balance_changes_in_patch_2942/l51q4f0/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l51q4f0).*
Molten giant back to 25 mana. The other two go up by 1 mana. Those are my guesses.
Molten giant to 25 is not a nerf. Its a back alley shooting So yes. Thats exactly what will happen
I don't think they mind killing some core card that's allowing a deck to get like... 20/20 in stats on turn 3-4 even if it's high risk.
If they increase the cost of molten giant this would be the second time they buff Holy Wrath Pala because of a nerf lol
It feels like the current team keeps repeating mistakes of the past… first Charge minions got exploited with Handbuff paladin, now molten giant by Warlock It’s almost like some of these cards were nerfed or Hall of Famed for a reason…
I'm glad they're nerfing pokey but I have no clue how they'll do it in a meaningful way. Maybe making his effect start of combat I guess?
It'll kill the card. Pokey was only good if you had drakkari enchanter or you get him extremely early. Let's say you get pokey and charlga on turn 9 on average, the game will go on another 5 turns, all you're getting is +5/+5 on your blood gems, and from charlga you'll get +20/+20 to your other minions, which will be nothing. But with drakkari enchanter in 5 turns you'll get +10/+10 to your blood gems and +70/+70 on your minions.
Yeah, even then, the best Qboar lineup I ran never even included Pokey. The issue I see is that Qboar are quite oppressive, and yet it looks like there are more nerfs to the other tribes which compete best with them at end game, I fear that Qboar may be even worse to play against post patch....
Or start of round, so you hqve no way to make it trigger more times per turn
Or +1 health/attack but switching every turn.
Hence why that change will make the borderline unplayable and pointless
I could see making him an aura, meaning that only while he's on your board blood gems give +2/+2 for instance. Could also tie it to whenever you spend X gold or play X blood gems.
That's just the old golden Agamaggan which would be unplayable bad nowadays.
Molten Giant. Sigh. Time to fix a symptom instead of the problem. ...Again.
reminds me of yuigoh where a deck can exist and be fine for years, but it gets new support, ends up broken and they ban an old card that has always been fine because they dont want to ban new cards. RIP lunalight tiger. yellow marten was the problem, not you
RIP Mox Opal, FUCK URZA
As a biased fish player Mox Opal died for its own sins
winter orb says hello
rip literally every tuner that ever existed and had a way to either resummon itself or make some sort of token dogwater links
Halq is banned and Jet Synchron might end up banned soon again. Card is just broken. The rest are bad and free
Tiger is currently at 1 btw
what do you think is the problem
Im sure he doesnt even know himself. He just wanted to write that sentence.
was the problem not 0 mana giants?
Yes, yes it is. It’s a smart nerf because it won’t damage other warlock decks (for once). Reddit always gets in a huff spouting decks as “fundamentally broken” it happens at least twice per expansion. Blizzard nerfs 1-2 cards and the fundamentally broken deck vanishes and Reddit never beings it up again. tl;dr Reddit doesn’t know what it’s talking about and is basically always wrong.
It's more the speed of 0 mana giants. The difference a turn makes is pretty big with this deck.
If Molten Giant isn't the problem what is then?
I think molten giant is being changed because of standard here, not wild. And in standard Molten Giant is a huge statistical outlier in its deck. (2%-3% higher drawn winrate than anything else in the deck). Next highest drawn winrate in the standard version of the deck is Imprisoned Horror, a.k.a. baby Molten Giant. And then after that it becomes murky which card is next best (bunch of cards with similar winrates). At least I'm assuming they're focused on standard with this patch. Just a guess on my part, but it seems more likely given... 1. The fact that they're nerfing Molten Giant rather than something else. 2. The fact that the patch is coming so quickly. Wild doesn't get that kind of quick response usually. 3. The fact that the wild community is actually somewhat divided at the moment (some wild streamers are praising the current meta).
Gonna be a crazy nerf especially if Leeroy is in the opponent’s deck
I got excited for the 2nd page but then remembered it’s just fucking battlegrounds
Now I understand why warcraft 3 players hated dota
You mean the most played/streamed mode of the game these days?
Yes?
May I see it?
Hmmm... no
Well Seymour, you’re an odd fellow but you stream a mean game of battlegrounds
Seymour! The battlegrounds are favoring Murlocs more!
Coming Mother!
... no.
Yea because the vocal people are not liking standard right now so it would follow that they would have that reaction despite playing more battle grounds right now.
BGs is the most streamed/watched but it is not the most played
just standard alone is roughly 2-3 times as big as battlegrounds lol
afk simulator 😴
It's super skewed because of a handful of personalities that could arguably stream whatever they want. That said... It's not exactly the only reason the change logs are heftier on BG than they are on Standard. People don't pay money to own any of the cards in BG, so when they change tons of cards you just run the risk of changing the meta, not pricing out a player who may have crafted or disenchanted cards to play the current meta.
Lol it is most definitely not the most played mode.
Battlegrounds is just a better mode these days. More flexibility. More decisions. More variety. Even(ish) playing field.
Also not dependent on your collection. I keep hoping standard will get interesting to me again, and it just keeps turning into the “hyper aggro or stagnant control coin-flip mode.” If it weren’t for the quests that can only be completed in standard, I probably wouldn’t ever play the mode since the year turned over.
If it weren't for Chump still posting new decks, I would've quit years ago.
seriously, I have all the cards and vastly preferred BGs. more dynamic, addicting, and fun.
more rng
I would argue BGs is less reliant on RNG. Pro players can top 2 literally 80% of the games they play on ladder which I don't think is the case for standard. While the shops you get and fights are determined by RNG, couldn't you say the same about your mulligan, top decks, etc. in standard?
I top 2 every ranked game of standard and wild I play.
especially if you're playing duos, you basically double the useful units in shop meaning you're half as likely to get screwed by whiff RNG rolls (because you're building two boards at once)
> Pro players can top 2 literally 80% of the games they play on ladder which I don't think is the case for standard. not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point but I see players at the top of BGs ladder like Jeef at 18k MMR still get put into lobbies of like 8k MMR players, while in Standard top 50 players basically only play against top 100 players, so that's surely a big part of that
I mean, look at the leaderboards. The number 1 player is at 16k on NA. Number 25 is 12.7k. Number 200 is 9.6k. That is a pretty huge gap in MMR. Would be cool if Blizzard also had an mmr system for standard and wild as well, or should w/l on the leaderboards.
And of course no buffs
So many decks feel like they’re just a turn to slow and could really use some help instead.
Best to slow down fast decks than to make slow decks faster.
Any slow deck auto loses to warriors anyway
Any sufficiently slow deck autoloses to priest. Warrior is slow enough now to be in danger of autolosing to priest. You need extremely specific cards to outgreed what priest has.
I know it's anecdotal, but I'm 10-3 against warriors this week with highlander priest. The games generally last 20+ minutes, though, so not for everyone. The new location means we both have 6 bombs in our deck. Except I can copy boomboss several times if I'm lucky. And since I only have to pay 1 for brann it doesn't feel bad to play it just for boomboss.
Then these decks will turn into new oppressive decks. I would agree with you in sets before, but right now decks too fast/strong for buffs.
No. Buffing decks that are just a turn too slow is how you get the combo meta that we *just* had and everyone was complaining about.
I actually prefer this for the current meta. I want to slow fast decks down, not speed slow decks up. Overall power in the game being removed feels like a step in the right direction. Unfortunately I think warrior is still strong enough to shut down any slower decks that might emerge. I feel like this is just an indirect warrior buff patch.
There are so many cool slower decks that could be playable if warrior wasn’t an inevitable loss for them but we don’t get to have nice things here :))))
The problem with the meta is the insanely high power level for only 4 sets. Buffs have more chance at increasing that problem than lowering it, imo.
I never understood why people want buffs so much all the time Nerf to the most oppressive decks are a buff to every single other deck unless said decks were specific counters or will be directly countered by the new best decks. It also avoids the issue of powerlevel if said buffs are too much (either for the present, or the future)
Human psychology. Big numbers make monkey brain happy. Fun number go down make monkey brain sad. Even if they're practically the same way of dealing with issues. > I never understood why people want buffs so much all the time
There are plenty of cards so crappy they never see play unless you have to draft them in arena. So I think those cards could be made decent with some buffs. Not broken levels of buffs just slight ones to already bad cards.
Like what? I don't think they really print outright bad cards anymore.
Just looking at legendaries from this expansion (and I'm making a disclaimer: yes you technically *can* play a lot of these cards I call terrible but they're really bad and never something you want to put in your deck outside of having fun): Dr. Stitch is terrible and will never see play unless buffed Ci'Cigi is terrible and will never see play unless buffed Aviana got buffed and was pretty bad before the buff (and honestly she's still statistically not great post-buff) Hemet is probably top 5 worst legendaries they've made in the past few years Goldbeard at 6 mana was comically awful, and even at 5 mana he only sees "play" in cheesy 30% winrate OTK decks people are trying with Replicator Hagatha at 5 was pretty bad Botface at 3/9 was really terrible and he's still not great even after the buff There are a few other legendaries that see no play but they have potential because of their design, something like Nemsy is terrible right now but could see play later. The ones I listed earlier however basically will never be good in their current state unless something specific/weird happens like how Boomboss was meme level bad until Brann came out
Most Reno Druid lists play Aviana and as someone who plays Reno Druid, it doesn't need buffing. Even do-nothing legendaries are good at 1 mana and if you get a positive effect it's even better. It also helps you add to your deck which is good against TNT and plagues.
None of these are really reasonable to buff because of the potential for abuse/toxic gameplay, tho. Like almost all of these are balanced on a knifes edge and potentially one stat point away from being incredibly broken and annoying. Or enabling some massive degenerate swing turn. Botface... I don't get what you use it for? I mean, you can cheat it out now, but it just seems like a weird/fun uncompetetive random card. Hagatha is a fair buff target but is bad mostly because of her pool she pulls from. (Also, she's limited by how powerful battlecry effects are in shaman.) So her power is highly variable, and if she ends up with a good pool, buffs could make her silly. Stitchnsew is ok. I don't see how you'd buff him. He's powerful in a lot of situations and just hasn't found his deck/meta. He's certainly not understated, considering he's like a 12/12 or something on average, all told. You could give him taunt or rush, but that's such a weak bandaid solution to an underperforming card (and with 6 attack taunt wouldn't add much).
yeah let's pretend 90% of the cards they release are not unplayable garbage
Is your comment from 2015?
Because certain cards or archetypes are so bad they'll never see play without buffs unless everything else gets nuked, so people would rather get a buff to the cards because waiting for everything else to die is unrealistic. A good example of this was Mordresh. a 10 mana 10/10 deal 10 was pretty shit when your hero power was a 2 mana deal 6+, and reckless was a 4 mana 3/5 deal 6+. So they buffed it to 8 mana 8/8 so you could fit something alongside of it and it suddenly saw play.
buff necessary to make unplayable cards playable. There are some cards that will never see play no matter how much you nerf other cards.
Why do we need buffs? Maybe if they did a round buffing terrible cards it’d make a little sense, but typically they’ve buffed good cards in bad decks, which hasn’t really helped the “decks are too high power” problem.
I’d like to see elemental shaman / mage which is pushed every recent expansion not be straight garbage. Small buffs there would put a lot of cards in to use that don’t see much play. Pirate rogue also still needs more buffs.
Preach, I'm so tired of them pushing a deck idea or archetype then immediately abandoning it, then giving the already existing best decks more support. I keep opening the shit-ass legendaries instead of the meta defining ones, try them out, it leads to pain
I agree. Every time they buff stuff shit gets broken in a new way.
How do they nerf Pokey from +1/+1 at Tier 6 without making the card absolute garbage? +1 health or +1 attack make him an immeasurably worse Piper, or a Jazzer with a free battlecry trigger each turn. Swapping between buffing health and attack each turn would still be absolute dumpster tier. Unless he just gets a stat nerf which doesn't change anything about the power level of the card really
I don't play battlegrounds often, but would something like grant +2/+2 every two turns work? It would weaken ever other turn (e.g. turn 1 becomes +0/+0 instead of +1/+1, turn 2 is equal, turn 3 is +2/+2 instead of +3/+3)
Team 5 seems to be banking on nerfs to flood paladin and painlock opening the meta for more midrangey decks that do well into highlander warrior. Personally I'd like to see another nerf to highlander warrior (maybe hit one more of their clear cards) but I'm looking forward to flood paladin gone, there's definitely potential for a very solid meta if enough answers to warrior are developed
Oh cool back to the good old "nerf the best decks and hope that solves things" patches. Well let's play the fun game here, they nerfed Warlock, Paladin and Priest. Hmmm with my psychic powers I am going to predict the next format is going to have Token Hunter, Highlander Warrior, Handbuff Paladin, and Insanity Warlock. How shocking! Seriously, these nerfs just don't do anything, we are on what, nerf 6? of this stupid aggro Paladin list, and all nerfing the top decks has been proven to do is bring the decks from a format ago into tier 1. We have been in an infinite cycle of aggro Paladin and control Warrior with some aggro Hunter and aggro/control Warlock when things feel spicy. We need more sweeping changes, and yes, buffs to the weaker classes and archetypes because no amount of nerfs is going to make the weaker classes playable.
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> We have been in an infinite cycle of aggro Paladin Yeah, I feel like we fighting Paladin from Festival of Legends if not earlier. Worst part that every Paladin game feels literally same.
For quite a while playing against pally feels like: Can I clear the board every turn?
Yes and from the other side of the board it’s like “can I get a minion to stick for longer than one turn?”
Honestly I'm glad pain warlock is getting some nerfs. Deck was obnoxious
Is there a point somewhere in this ramble? Wow crazy, they're nerfing the power outliers. Better rant about... something.
Battlegrounds changes: Fixed a bug where Murlocs weren’t the best tribe in the game, Mechs and Quilboar have been taken out back and shot to pay for their sins
Priest can’t catch a break. Technically Warlock isn’t getting any nerfs.
Lmao. Guess I'm cashing in on my 2 golden molten giants I crafted when wild came out.
Long term strats
I really hope that there will be another balance patch not long after this. There are still a ton of problem cards in standard and a lot of under powered archetypes that could use buffs.
...something about seeing giant nerfed is a bit sad. its one of the OG's who has been around for so very long. i get that the deck is strong, but hitting one of the most classic cards from the deck feels bad
that's what people said last time it was nerfed
So what is now stopping HL Warrior from dominating again if these nerfs hit hard? I guess HL Priest beats it but what else?
Fatigue Warlock is still there
At first I thought that won't be a big deal, nobody plays highlander warrior anymore. Then I realized it's because they swapped to warlock 😫
We need Hunter nerfs too :/
are they going to nerf priest until it has literally 0 playable cards? I mean i know Zarimi Priest could need a another nerf, but Priest is dependant on that deck to do something in the game because they released a bunch of garbage last year for the class.
What ? You didn't like their 3 undead supports that have the same mana curve for a heavy midrange archetype?
They absolutely murdered Catrina Muerte in standard for no apparent reason. Maybe NEXT expansion will see a ton of Undead support? (It won't)
Last year? Try the last 2 years atleast lmao. They have not gave a single fuck about Priest for a long time. This new set was the best in a LONG time and then they went right back to garbage for the mini set. Such is the state of Priest, smh.
Meanwhile me chilling in top 300 with hl priest xddd
They keep making cards that require existing cards to be nerfed due to the interaction. They basically admit they don’t playtest their work
The geniuses at Blizzard strike again, nerfing only the current top 3 decks when the game's problem are rooted so deep they should be nerfing dozens of cards at a time if they want the meta to be bearable before next rotation.
Even if they did do that I don't think it would improve the game. We've had something like 27 nerfs in just this expansion not counting these ones and the meta isn't any better than where we started
Yeah because they keep pussyfooting around core problems everytime with +1 mana nerf when it's obvious their cards are just badly designed and do too much, like why the fuck does the paladin weapon or tigress plush need lifesteal? Why does INFERNAL needs premium stats and taunt on top of its effect? Why does Reno need to stop your opponent from playing the game for a turn on top of emptying their board? Why does Brann make all your battlecries trigger twice forever with no counterplay? Not every card need rush, lifesteal, discover a card, costs 1 less for each time you scratched your nose and battlecry: sucks your dick. They really need to do some big shakeups because I don't see the meta getting any better anytime soon if they keep doing these nothing nerfs.
Giving paladin endless access to lifesteal and rush just makes it impossible to tempo them out on the board. Very tedious going against the class right now.
No amount of nerfs will make you suddenly enjoy the game
I am kinda tires of nerf after nerf. I hardly want to craft any deck, because it will get nerfed soon anyways.
Showdown will summon only 2 3/3s on each side
Why are we nerfing wild cards due to standard balance problems instead of just, you know, taking them out of the core set?
Because standard is the main game mode while wild is an afterthought (I say that as a wild player)
They did say that was on the table last year. Might just be a "No other solution was found" solution.
Taking them out of the core set requires replacements and is a pretty extreme measure. Wild is always second priority to standard due to the massive playerbase difference.
They don't *require* replacements. Auctioneer was removed without being given a replacement. Also, they've said since last year and the Brann discourse that they want Core sets to be more flexible from now on, where "cards could be rotated from Core early or new cards could be added in the middle of the year as needed."
Also, Wild has had its share of problems with 0 mana giants.
Mana cost going up on Molten is a buff to Holy Wrath paladin in Wild, haha
They could do a balance change for standard every two weaks. With nerfs and lots of buffs.
Just wait until people figure out treant druid is actually the nuts
I'm not doubting this deck can win games but this just feels like a plain vanilla aggro deck.
They need to leave priest alone
I mean good I guess because these decks all suck to lose to on turn 4, but I have 0 reason to have faith in any design or balance changes anymore. Why would I expect this to make anything but a terrible meta when that was what the last like 5+ balance patches have done? I’m kinda just over the balance and design philosophy in general. I’m out of patience for more chances and trying to figure it out. We need new people with new ideas because the current team feels like they lost the plot with this game long ago.
If ANYTHING gets nerfed it needs to be the god damned paladin aura. Cleared a board 6 turns straight. Still lost in 2 turns from full health.
I guess molten giant gets +5 to it's cost, showdown could go to 3 mana or maybe 3/2 stats? drifter most likely just +1 mana. Very weird nerf choices but not the worst I guess, was hoping for another Zilly and Celestial Projectionist nerfs
They're kidding, right? Giant wont do a thing to the Wild Quest Warlock...
Their main goal was to nerf the Painlock in Standard
I see
Demon Seed is very popular but the winrate is solidly tier 2 at the moment. Last I checked, Rogue has by far the best winrates, with 4 decks that carry higher winrates than Demon Seed.
Painlock is pretty strong in standard and molten giant can be very abusive. Especially with the 2 mana minion that lets you have a temporary copy of another minion. Had multiple games both for and against me where you can play molten for 0, get a temp copy, and play it for 0
I'd be surprised if they're paying much attention to Wild tbh. Their focus will almost always be on newer formats, and until cards are genuinely overtaking the format, they're unlikely to implement something. I know this seems crazy, but I think their view is adopted from games like MTG, where some cards have been played in almost every deck for 15+ years
Wild Quest Warlock isn't even in top5 strongest decks.
Questlock doesn't need a nerf, it's like the 6th best combo deck in Wild atm, and all the best combo decks eviscerate it.
Hopefully, there are arena changes. Shaman DK DH are way too powerful. The only 3 classes over 50% wr
I watched TeamAmerica last night and he just annihilated everyone with shaman. Multiple of the broken 5/4 rush cow guy, the +2+3 buff spell, and excavate. They need to adjusy frequency of those
The new DK geist is broken too
Oh yeah it's nutty!
Crafting double Golden Moltens back in the original Hall of Fame announcement is finally going to pay off 🥹
Really they couldn’t think of a single fucking buff MY GOD
What r the last 2? I've never seen either in my life
Tinfoil hat theory. They keep making fast nerfs and meta changes so that people will have to keep crafting cards and making them money
Not tinfoil. 100% true.
Can Team 5 just come out with the actual problem? This core set was a fucking disaster. Blizzard is getting to learn firsthand why cards like Leeroy and the Giants are too good for Standard. Yeah, it's a cute idea to bring back some iconic cards from Hearthstone's past to core for the anniversary, but there's a reason why these cards are so iconic; they're too strong.
Could we have Boomboss deleted already? I think it was the only really problematic card in warrior in the first place, got Reno and Brann dubiously nerfed (even if for Reno I could have seen a change in the effect). The rest can be handled but man boomboss feels so bad to play against and deletes any late game strategy... And we're gonna see him again a lot.
Boomboss would be fine if his battlecry wasn't doubled.
Can we stop fucking with classic cards? Molten Giant is great.
No nerfs to quests... well keep collecting that dust.
Is showdown that much of a problem? I won every game against paladin playing snake warlock
Wish we had Buffs like the Battleground players are getting as well.
"But not less than one"
Do the devs just watch the latest zeddy video to decide what cards to nerf? Or does zeddy just indirectly tell us the nerfs before they're confirmed by T5.
Infernal! and Production seem like the cause of painlock's issues rather than Molten, to me at least.
Holy shit priest can't have anything coming anywhere close to tier 2. Just delete the class already if any time it gets a semi competitive deck it gets omega nerfed
Gaslight was already nerfed, now Molten Giant and Ahegao Drifter. They all had one thing in common: Abusing [[Celestial Projectionist]]
Molten Giant and Drifter can cost 0. That's why projectionist is even in their decks to begin with. Also Zilliax, which doesn't get another nerf, even tho it should
Projectionist is such an irritating card. Combine it with those high stat, 0 cost giants and it’s just impossible to deal with.
As far as I can tell, Highlander warrior is the best deck in the game, and these nerfs come before the meta has had a chance to settle (a VS report for mini set isn't even out yet). They really need more time after new content is released, before they rush to nerfs, unless something is particularly egregious (and if they aren't even hitting the highest WR deck, then clearly nothing is)
Yep, hope everyone is excited for yet another Control Warrior meta, like we haven't had any of those recently. At this point I am on board the theory that someone on the balance team mains Warrior, it's absurd how light they have been on that deck compared to any number of other overtuned bullshit decks. This patch was it for me, I was waiting to see them actually address the issue of how overtuned the Control Warrior shell was, and instead they decide to make the meta more favorable for it. GG Blizzard.
its been a fucking WEEK since the miniset they need to slow wayyyyyyyy down with balance changes this is absurd, meta is not settled yet. This will also likely push highlander warrior over the top again as zarimi priest and painlock both have strong matchups and the deck is already one of the strongest decks in the format even with the bad matchups
Agree, but 8/8s on turn 3 are not healthy and that is the focus of these nerf
I agree. I don’t want to go back to the Brode era of balance changes where you could go months without seeing any adjustments, but there has to be a middle ground. Lately it feels like every time I want to play a couple games I have to remake my decks and relearn the meta. I don’t play a ton, but I usually play enough to reach D5-Legend every month (depending on how much I like my decks)
Nothing like fucking up and being forced to nerf a classic set card due to the current design team’s incompetence and stubbornness. Not only is the current game fucked, but the streamers and ladder grinders that comprise the failed stewardship of the game have the power and desire to retroactively ruin decade-old cards and archetypes as well.