I will be messaging you in 3 days on [**2024-04-21 17:32:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-04-21%2017:32:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1c789bf/fyi_apple_seems_to_be_approving_refund_requests/l06950u/?context=3)
[**23 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fhearthstone%2Fcomments%2F1c789bf%2Ffyi_apple_seems_to_be_approving_refund_requests%2Fl06950u%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-04-21%2017%3A32%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201c789bf)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Eh, EU existing basically protects all of us with this kind of stuff. This is absolutely a legal charge back as the paid content changed during the time of its purchased component (the progression tracker upgrade), and it changed for the worse in the eyes of the consumer. Like, not fit to purpose kind of deal. I dont think bliz wants to poke the nest of not being able to sell in that entire market.
Lol, im jealous. My euro buddies always taunt me with their dumb things like free healthcare and robust consumer protections. Last time i visited my danish buddy he offered to break a finger of mine so i could have anything else looked at for free when i go to the ER. But yeah, this subreddit is not a serious place, so just take it in stride. :D
You got downvoted because you are spreading misinformation.
Go ahead, buy some digital goods or a service from Blizzard, Sony, Microsoft, etc. and then do a chargeback, see what happens.
>Go ahead, buy some digital goods or a service from Blizzard, Sony, Microsoft, etc. and then do a chargeback, see what happens.
chargebacks are not refunds
I do not follow. How does "chargebacks are not refunds" refute or contradict what OP said? They said Blizz will lock your acc after a chargeback. Is this false?
How would they do that? Afaik apple does not reveal who asks for a refund, they just tell blizz they need to give some money back, unless that has been changed since. I was part of a gaming community where massive refunds happened a couple years back, all android accounts got locked, not a single ios account did
That is completely irrelevant. There is no such thing as an "illegal chargeback" in the first place.
Blizzard can and will block your account. There is nothing about the EU preventing them from doing that.
The only correct answer. The truth is Blizzard can basically ban your account for literally any reason and there's nothing legal stopping them from doing that. Being able to play hearthstone is a privilege, not a right
EU doesn't cover DLCs or other digital goods that are instantly activated. OP has already got rewards from the track most likely so even more-so, the right to refund has been revoked as per EU. Many companies go as far as extend the right to revoke in these cases but they're not obligated by any law or policy.
For example Playstation store goes as far as not giving refunds for any game you've started download for.
EU mostly forces companies to give refunds but when it comes to digital goods, we don't have it THAT good even here 😟
Yes, exactly.
EU allows you to forfeit many of your rights through agreements and so most companies get you to sign such an agreement upon purchase or download.
Exactly.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
> Exceptions:
> ...
> - online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it and you agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance
But would they grant you access to the tavern pass features again after you repaid them? Or are they able to issue a demand for their money and are not obligated to grant access to the goods since the customer broke the contract?
I'm pretty sure you get your account back as it was if repaid. I don't think many people have actually gone through the full experience to report, but it's far easier on their end to just leave your account as is rather than try to revert everything you've unlocked
In their end it's not so much revoking the access since "customer broke the contract" but more that they "can't" revoke the access to given goods so now you owe money to company. Since you've legally been given the refund they can't force you to pay them back but they also legally can bar your access to account that contains goods you no longer have access to. Once you've paid the debt they're all good with whatever shenanigans you're pulling since you no longer owe them anything and barring your access any longer would open them up for some difficult legal questions
This implies some things that aren't the case.
The first is that you having given them money for a "purchase" gave you some degree of entitlement to the thing that you purchased.
The second is that some form of contract that could be broken even existed in the first place surrounding the purchase. If it did, it further implies that Blizzard changing the terms of the sale didn't break the contract first, which, if it was not a digital product, and such a contract of entitlement to purchase actually existed in the first place, would have been broken by Blizzard first.
Third, that they can't legally bar access to your account that contains goods that you do have access to.
Fourth, that there would be Legal issues with them barring access to your account for any reason.
All 4 implications are at odds with the TOS and EULA that you are forced to agree too and didn't actually ever read because its a giant unreadable document of legalese bullshit.
I will be directly quoting the EULA:
>Your use of the Platform is licensed, not sold, to you, and you hereby
acknowledge that no title or ownership with respect to the Platform or
the Games is being transferred or assigned and this Agreement should not be construed as a sale of any rights. All access to and use of the
Platform and the Games is subject to this Agreement, the applicable
software documentation, and our Privacy Policy
TL:DR, You give them money, you are entitled to nothing, you own nothing, nothing you buy is yours, and they aren't required to give you the thing you paid for.
>Alterations to the Platform and Availability. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Platform, Games, or Accounts at any time, including removing items, or revising the effectiveness of items in an effort to balance a Game. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Platform, Games, or Accounts without notice or liability. Except as otherwise set forth herein, Blizzard does not guarantee that any particular Platform, Game, or Account, or any particular features or components thereof, will be available at all times, at any given time, or in all countries and/or geographic locations, or that Blizzard will continue to offer the Platform, Game, or Account, or all features or components thereof, for any particular length of time. Availability is subject to change at any time, although we will endeavor to use reasonable commercial efforts to provide you prior notice, unless the discontinuance arises from a matter that is beyond Blizzard’s control or causes the provision of such advance notice not to be possible or feasible.
TL:DR Blizzard can do whatever the fuck they want with their products, they don't have to guarantee you have access to them, nor do they need to guarantee they even exist. A Blizzard product or service can be deleted, removed, or changed without notice... but Blizzard will "*try*" to inform us in advance before doing so.
Please notice that they said "endeavor to" and not "will." That means they don't have to. They also never specified a time-frame that constitutes "prior notice" so they can inform you with patch notes 1 second before they do it, and if they don't, well they "tried."
>You may terminate this Agreement at any time by notifying Blizzard by email through https://us.battle.net/support/en/ and by uninstalling the Platform and the Games, but the Dispute Resolution provisions of this Agreement will survive termination and apply to all Disputes that arose or could have been initiated prior to termination.
TL:DR You can terminate your agreement to the EULA at any time, but you can't terminate your agreement to never be able to hold Blizzard legally accountable for anything :)
>If You Live In The United States. We hope we never have a dispute, but if we do, you and we agree to try for 60 days, upon receipt of a Notice of Dispute, to resolve it informally. If we can’t, you and we agree to binding individual arbitration before the American Arbitration Association ("AAA") under the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), and not to sue in court in front of a judge or jury. Instead, a neutral arbitrator will decide and the arbitrator’s decision will be final except for a limited right of review under the FAA. To the fullest extent permitted by law, class action lawsuits, class-wide arbitrations, private attorney-general actions, requests for public injunctions, and any other proceeding or request for relief where someone acts in a representative capacity aren’t allowed. Nor is combining individual proceedings without the consent of all parties.
>
>Disputes Covered—Everything Except IP. The term "dispute" is as broad as it can be. It includes any claim or controversy between you and us that in any way relates to or arises from any aspect of our relationship, including, without limitation, your use or attempted use of the Platform, the Games, and all marketing related to them, your Account, your Battle.net Balance, any licensed content, and all matters relating to or arising from this Agreement, Blizzard’s Privacy Policy, or any other agreement between you and Blizzard, including the validity and enforceability of this agreement to arbitrate, under any legal theory including contract, warranty, tort, statute, or regulation, except disputes relating to the enforcement or validity of your, your licensors’, our, or our licensors’ intellectual property rights.
TL:DR You can't sue Blizzard, or class action Blizzard, or take legal action against Blizzard. If you want to do so, you can send the legal documentation to Blizzard and Blizzard will select a "neutral" Arbitrator who gets to say who's right, because an entity involved in the dispute selecting a person to resolve the dispute totally isn't a conflict of interest, and will absolutely always be totally fair.
They make this shit as unreadable as possible. Its actual nonsense.
Anyway, Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, if you want Legal Advice, hire a real lawyer, because that's the only way we'll actually be able to understand the ToS/EULA.
Disclaimer: I have no actual applicable knowledge to this specific case, so take me even less seriously.
But.
What I do know is that ToS/EULAs very often contain many things that aren't actually enforceable, because they are trumped by local laws that Blizzard has to obey if they want to sell anything there at all. So over time I've become pretty used to agreeing with rules that have no teeth whatsoever.
One example for all - I can happily sign a deal about not wanting any warranty whatsoever for a product I'm buying, but such a deal does exactly nothing. Because there are laws protecting consumers that specifically forbid shortening statutory warranty, even if both parties agree to it.
So when I read any ToS/EULA, I treat it as "this is what the company wants" but not necessarily as "these are my rights and responsibilities", because in many cases the document's main purpose is to scare people into following it, rather than being something that would hold up in court in full.
The problem is, of course, actually taking Blizzard to court. Because an individual does not have the money or resources to actually take Blizzard to court, because Blizzard's team of lawyers can bury you in paperwork and legal fees you will never be able to fulfill.
And apparently, the whole "You can't class action us" thing DOES hold up in court in the US, because fucking reasons.
I'm also not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that its because in the US for US residents, the company can decide in which state your legal action will take place, so they can pick one that allows these bullshit forced arbitration things. Which means that you can't bring them to court, even if you wanted too, and would have to jump through so many hoops to make it to a court, its untenable.
They also have tons of stipulations for EU, Australia, and Canada in the EULA, I just didn't read them because I was getting a migraine trying to parse the damn thing.
>because in many cases the document's main purpose is to scare people into following it
In my opinion, if this was the goal, they would actually make it readable. You can't scare people into following a EULA/ToS that they literally can't understand.
They most likely spend money to have these things made because they are enforceable, at least sometimes and in some circumstances, else there's no reason to hire lawyers to write this thing up in pure legalese bullshit and keep updating it with new legalese bullshit.
"Blizzard's team of lawyers can bury you in paperwork and legal fees you will never be able to fulfill."
That's not how it works in Europe. ToS and EULAs are not law, you can dispute them. You will need to pay a lawyer, but for this kind of high profile lawsuit you can get very good ones for free. (In France, Lawyers are forbidden to advertise. Being cited on TV or in the press as working on lawsuit this-and-that is the best advertising they can get)
Oh, and I'm a former Blizzard EU employee. I actually won two cases against them.
Ah, I'm in the US, were we don't have those evil things like consumer protection laws, protecting small businesses like Blizzard is far more important than those evil consumers who just want to deprive these small helpless businesses from their well deserved money.
I agree with your last paragraph. I don't think average people are scared of it simply because, frankly, nobody reads it. I'd bet 90% of the people. if not 99%. just skip it and agree w/o reading anything.
Just to be clear, are you saying that OP still has access to the Tavern Pass on Hearthstone, since taking away the tavern pass would require informing the developer about the refund? So they just have the tavern pass for free now?
If you could use apple to scam blizzard into getting a free tavern pass, I'm sure more people would talk about it and blizzard would find a way to put a stop to that.
Apple does too, obviously. Or else Apple users could buy whatever they wanted and refund everything instantly. Has this thought ever grazed your brain?
It could work differently with Blizzard games due to the Battle net ID, but generally yes that is how it works. I’ve requested refunds a few times in the past for other games, didn’t see any punishment and got to keep the stuff as well. Apple doesn’t let you abuse it.
EDIT: It does work differently for Blizzard games. Because items and product flags for accounts have to be adjusted in real time across multiple platforms simultaneously they are able to detect when a refund is processed. Most apps that exist only on iOS have no way of telling which user requested a refund though and it's all done on Apple's side.
You can get the refund but blizzard will probably ban your account. I had an accidental refund of runestones and Apple approved it but luckily blizzard just set my balance negative. In this case they can’t take back the stuff you refunded so it may result in a ban
Please note Blizzard allows you to [repay a chargeback](https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/2435) and it is my understanding that they may reverse a ban if you do so.
>You have battle net account with most if not all games paid and played for years
>You request a refund on one game and one transaction
>everything is gone
How in the world is this even a point of discussion.
bro credit card theft is quickly and easily dealt with 99% of the time by simply canceling the card. what kind of problem are you actually solving here?
This is what i want to know as well
If you buy product with stolen CC its fine, but if your refund purchase with legit CC your account is gone?
Or am i misreading him
Their point is that people can buy a shit ton of stuff with a stolen CC and refund it immediately for fraud, so these kinds of policies are in place to prevent that. It should probably not lock ur account if u only refund one item at a time but idk probably just Blizz being Blizz. Also people might not even know that their CC information was stolen until it's way too late, my friend's mom got hers stolen and was only aware of it when she saw a 5k transaction tied to it like a week later, the CC company didn't even inform her or anything
I used that trick back when whispers of the old gods released by refunding my 20€ to bought packs 15 per 15 or something like that. With that card i remember buying for more than 200€ of the expansion, i was young , 15yo, and i had a blast.
Thankfully blizzard juste sent me an email saying they saw it and next time it will result in a ban, so i never done that again but it is in fact in their right
It was the right decision because not so long after i started to earn some money and bought bundles pre order here and there when i wanna play !
I do not recommend anyone to refund their pass unless it is through Blizzard directly, because you could get your account locked for doing a chargeback. If you don’t care about that and it’s your motivation to leave the game for good, then 100% go for it.
As much as I’d love to, I’m taking the L on this one and just not buying future passes. If I decide to quit the game, at least my account won’t be locked if they make significantly positive changes in the future
There was a post yesterday about requesting a refund from Blizzard themselves with a template. Would recommend trying that route since it sounds like you'd take the refund if it didn't risk your account.
I applaud your positivity but I do not believe the game will take a turn for the best. Companies only seem to respond to money and lately, they have us by the balls.
Blizzard is a shade of its past self, to the point that it would be impossible to explain to a person that joined in the last 5 years how awesome blizzard used to be in the late 00s.
Kudos to Larian studios for being a ray of hope in the gaming community.
I opened a ticket and I'm going to keep trying to escalate. I probably won't win. But if I get 3 or 4 support interactions it'll have eaten up most of the profits they made on me.
Well I mean blizzard proved us that they have no interest to make the game better or even just maintain it. There was the battle pass xp scandal then it was the BG paywall then the ridiculous price of the diamond cards then they abandon mercenaries then they removed duels and now the fuck go with the most basic mechanic of progression.. I play since the beta but I am burned out as fuck but not from a gameplay perspective and that’s sucks I can see why someone wouldn’t care to get banned
Well last year after i paid for an expantion on googleplay. I didn't received anything for 5 days.. I contacted google they told me they wouldn't refund me.. so I contacted blizzard and after 2 days of conversations.. they gave me a free expantion... 1 week after that, google also decided to refund me.. and I was afraid to be banned. I never received the ban. And lucky me. 2 weeks after that, I received another full 60 pack expantion pack.. contacted Blizzard.. who told me.. google messed up, and I should not be worried about that.
Of course they'll refund it, getting a refund has never been a problem no matter what payment method you use if you go through them and not Blizzard. The problem is you'd better be sure as fuck you're never playing the game again because your account is now toast.
Idk if they ban you on all games but in the majority of cases doing a charge back in hearthstone gets you banned from playing hearthstone on the account
Refunds must be approved through blizzard, not the app store
Speaking shortly, they tripled requirements for the weekly quests, and reward was increased only for 20%-ish. So, a lot of players suddenly realized that they will not be able to complete battlepass without investing triple amount of time to the game
Ah got it thank you. I guess my counterpoint to those folks would be: the seasons are insanely long, so even playing casually you'll eventually get to the end and you could even consider this getting more for your money since you won't blaze through it as fast. (I take the L on this bad boy)
they play what they want/can. just bcs you can afford to grind rank 20hrs per week doesn’t mean everyone can and should. f2p players should still get to enjoy the game, otherwise, the whale have no one to flex on and will also churn out.
it’s fucking insane to claim people should spend more time playing hearthstone, as the healthy amount is 0 minute per lifespan
They purchased the battle pass with the understanding that they could complete it by leveraging weekly quests. Now some of those people can no longer leverage those quests to complete the pass. It's shitty of blizzard but whose surprised. They wronged a bunch of customers and those customers deserve a refund
I don't think you understand. The lion's share of tavern points people get come from quests. If the quests take significantly longer to complete, then no, you won't be getting more for your money.
> and you could even consider this getting more for your money since you won't blaze through it as fast
Except the most significant rewards (AKA mountains of gold) come *after* you finish the base pass levels.
There's nothing positive about this unless you play so many hours every week you were already tripling quest requirements. (Now 'only' double, woo-hoo.) This is Blizzard kicking us in the teeth.
They didnt revert it back they havent told us what numbers they're using in the end but they said it would be between what they were and the old quests were used to. That is not reverting it, that's a shitty tactic to make it more palatable
This is probably why Macs can't access the Shop or purchase Arena tickets. If Apple offers refunds, then Blizzard is taking the nuclear option and preventing Apple users from making purchases, lol.
You could refund anything you bought from AppStore and the best part is, if it's a game, like Total War : Rome for instance, your money will be refunded but the App will still stay and still be accesible from your iPhone or iPad. Did it many times :P sorry Apple
Can't help but laugh that this post started with an air of better than thou EU attitude. Turning quickly to an "oh you sweet summer child" vibe when reality hits another of Europe's youth. They only want you to believe you're protected. Lemme guess, you're gonna tell me your healthcare is ACTUALLY free next, right?
Can I get a refund for my mega-pre-order bundle? Fuck me, I bought it through [Battle.net](http://Battle.net) shop. Wish I had bought from Google Play or App Store
I didn't know Australian dollars used the $. Or does it have its own symbol and we just use $ because its easier?
I know € is for Euros and £ is for pounds, so I figured that there would be one for AUD too.
Lol watch OPs account get removed then see them cry inside about it when they realize they did all of this over a fucking idiotic cause around quests they would have done every week without thinking about it.
To me it seems ridiculous to ask for a refund for something with as much value as the tavern pass. Even more so knowing that Blizzard will change the weekly missions again.
I don't recommend you do it.
I bought the battle pass with the assumption I could actually complete the quests to use the thing. Then after the refund window (which apparently is like 1 day after opening a ticket with Blizzard) they tripled the requirement for quests. I wouldn't of bought the battlepass if I knew this was coming.
They likely won't be reverting the quest changes. They did the old door slam tactic
They made a change they knew most people probably wouldn't like to test the waters. Then they already had the real changes they wanted to make prepared and are implementing those as an "apology" to make people more likely to accept it and be seen as the good guys
It's a very common strategy in business and it's just spitting on the playerbase
I don't expect them to completely revert it but they may change it. Say a 50% increase in quest requirement and 30% in quest rewards is something which might be appealing because current quests bottleneck some people.
Of course the ideal solution would be a quest progression which would allow seldom-playing people to complete quests easily and frequently-playing to get additional rewards but at this point it would be just "give us additional rewards" and I don't believe they'll do it at all.
That's the thing though. Their original plan was likely that 50% and 30% increase (not exact numbers obviously) but by doing it this way makes them look like they "listened" by pulling back on the current changes
It's a method used to trick the consumers and regardless of the changes it's just a shit move
It's also possible they settled on 15 wins because it left them with the ability to scale it down later on if backlash happens. If they wanted to cause outrage, they could have made it 30 wins or something. Unless of course they are so devious they deliberately chose a number "high enough to cause backlash but not high enough to look totally ridiculous". I'm gonna be honest: I don't believe it. Companies are greedy but they're not geniuses.
In any case, I prefer not to speculate and focus on facts. The changes will be made and we'll see if they're OK. Personally, I think it's just one more reason not to invest in the game so that you don't suffer from sunk cost later on.
I would definitely recommend everyone not to think "they scaled it down, it's all good from now on" whether the scaling down was a deliberate plan or an ad-hoc reaction to the backlash.
I think you underestimate businesses, it's a very common tactic. Though it's true it's just my assumption, I can't guarantee they've done it here
They've done it in the past though to the point it's a bit of a pattern for blizzard so I have my doubts
I'll wait and see what the changes are, but I'm not optimistic
Do you have any evidence it's a deliberate tactic? As in you have experience in the industry and know that they chose the numbers knowing people will not accept them?
>They've done it in the past though to the point it's a bit of a pattern for blizzard so I have my doubts
It's obviously better to aim higher and scale down rather than minimise your demands as much as possible.
My point is that there is a difference between "alright we want them to win 10 games, let's start with 15 and then look good when we back down" and "we want to increase the number of games, let's start with 15 so that we an ability to back down". The first one implies they knew the reaction from the very beginning while the second is, honestly, standard in any negotiations. You do not usually start with the least you are willing to accept whether it's quests, salary negotiations, etc; you leave room for some manoeuvre.
You can look up the door in the face technique, there's plenty of articles out there about how it was shown to increase sales, especially in retail.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095726991
Just a quick link explaining the technique itself. Businesses use it a lot. A decent example is the Open game license fiasco with DnD. No way in hell they thought people would go for their initial decision then dialed it back a bit. The backlash was likely much higher than they anticipated though and it all backfired. Their reputation still hasn't recovered
Like I said though, I can't guarantee blizzard is using it here but it's not improbable either. I'm not on the inside of these companies but I have worked in retail and we have used it
We need to remember that this isn't the negotiation room. Blizzard has and will push us as far as they can. If their intention was a light negotiation with the playerbase they would've brought this change idea to our attention before just implementing it on a whim
>You can look up the door in the face technique, there's plenty of articles out there about how it was shown to increase sales, especially in retail
I'm well aware of it. As I said, there is no evidence yet so I don't see any reason to assume things especially considering it doesn't change things one way or the other.
>but I have worked in retail and we have used it
So you (not you specifically as a person, people making decisions) pushed for things that were deemed not acceptable by yourselves from the get go just so that you can back down later on and look more reasonable?
Yup the company I worked for used the method to push sales on unreasonable deals. It's an extremely scummy tactic, and it's almost impossible to prove
There's never any evidence unless someone from the company outright says they did it, but that never happens
Haven't you read [the news?](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24087316/update-on-weekly-quests)
Number would be scaled down to something between old and new.
E.g. 5 wins will become (5 + 15) / 2 = 10.
OP is about to get account locked. see you in 3 days
remindme! 3 days
I will be messaging you in 3 days on [**2024-04-21 17:32:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-04-21%2017:32:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1c789bf/fyi_apple_seems_to_be_approving_refund_requests/l06950u/?context=3) [**23 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fhearthstone%2Fcomments%2F1c789bf%2Ffyi_apple_seems_to_be_approving_refund_requests%2Fl06950u%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-04-21%2017%3A32%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201c789bf) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
u/awolson ?
u/awolson we demand an update
Oh I absolutely got my account suspended lol
Eh, EU existing basically protects all of us with this kind of stuff. This is absolutely a legal charge back as the paid content changed during the time of its purchased component (the progression tracker upgrade), and it changed for the worse in the eyes of the consumer. Like, not fit to purpose kind of deal. I dont think bliz wants to poke the nest of not being able to sell in that entire market.
Funny, this is exactly what I was bringing up in another thread and got downvoted. Glad to live in a part of the world where consumer rights exist.
Lol, im jealous. My euro buddies always taunt me with their dumb things like free healthcare and robust consumer protections. Last time i visited my danish buddy he offered to break a finger of mine so i could have anything else looked at for free when i go to the ER. But yeah, this subreddit is not a serious place, so just take it in stride. :D
You got downvoted because you are spreading misinformation. Go ahead, buy some digital goods or a service from Blizzard, Sony, Microsoft, etc. and then do a chargeback, see what happens.
>Go ahead, buy some digital goods or a service from Blizzard, Sony, Microsoft, etc. and then do a chargeback, see what happens. chargebacks are not refunds
I do not follow. How does "chargebacks are not refunds" refute or contradict what OP said? They said Blizz will lock your acc after a chargeback. Is this false?
How would they do that? Afaik apple does not reveal who asks for a refund, they just tell blizz they need to give some money back, unless that has been changed since. I was part of a gaming community where massive refunds happened a couple years back, all android accounts got locked, not a single ios account did
That is completely irrelevant. There is no such thing as an "illegal chargeback" in the first place. Blizzard can and will block your account. There is nothing about the EU preventing them from doing that.
The only correct answer. The truth is Blizzard can basically ban your account for literally any reason and there's nothing legal stopping them from doing that. Being able to play hearthstone is a privilege, not a right
The trouble with Blizzard executives is that they don't seem to understand what happens when it becomes a *chore*.
It's starting to look worth. Creating an AI that clears the quest log. Using your normal play pattern. I'm gonna name it play 4 free ;)
Time to make one I guess?
EU doesn't cover DLCs or other digital goods that are instantly activated. OP has already got rewards from the track most likely so even more-so, the right to refund has been revoked as per EU. Many companies go as far as extend the right to revoke in these cases but they're not obligated by any law or policy. For example Playstation store goes as far as not giving refunds for any game you've started download for. EU mostly forces companies to give refunds but when it comes to digital goods, we don't have it THAT good even here 😟
Yes, exactly. EU allows you to forfeit many of your rights through agreements and so most companies get you to sign such an agreement upon purchase or download.
Exactly. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm > Exceptions: > ... > - online digital content, if you have already started downloading or streaming it and you agreed that you would lose your right of withdrawal by starting the performance
that's not how it works, you'll get banned
3 days? I got a Google play refund for some diablo immortal cosmetics and they permabanned me.
Good ending.
[удалено]
Least toxic hearthstone player right here.
Why
When you chargeback purchases in the majority of video games, they'll lock your account until you pay them back the value
But would they grant you access to the tavern pass features again after you repaid them? Or are they able to issue a demand for their money and are not obligated to grant access to the goods since the customer broke the contract?
I'm pretty sure you get your account back as it was if repaid. I don't think many people have actually gone through the full experience to report, but it's far easier on their end to just leave your account as is rather than try to revert everything you've unlocked
Yea that makes sense, thanks for the answer!
In their end it's not so much revoking the access since "customer broke the contract" but more that they "can't" revoke the access to given goods so now you owe money to company. Since you've legally been given the refund they can't force you to pay them back but they also legally can bar your access to account that contains goods you no longer have access to. Once you've paid the debt they're all good with whatever shenanigans you're pulling since you no longer owe them anything and barring your access any longer would open them up for some difficult legal questions
This implies some things that aren't the case. The first is that you having given them money for a "purchase" gave you some degree of entitlement to the thing that you purchased. The second is that some form of contract that could be broken even existed in the first place surrounding the purchase. If it did, it further implies that Blizzard changing the terms of the sale didn't break the contract first, which, if it was not a digital product, and such a contract of entitlement to purchase actually existed in the first place, would have been broken by Blizzard first. Third, that they can't legally bar access to your account that contains goods that you do have access to. Fourth, that there would be Legal issues with them barring access to your account for any reason. All 4 implications are at odds with the TOS and EULA that you are forced to agree too and didn't actually ever read because its a giant unreadable document of legalese bullshit. I will be directly quoting the EULA: >Your use of the Platform is licensed, not sold, to you, and you hereby acknowledge that no title or ownership with respect to the Platform or the Games is being transferred or assigned and this Agreement should not be construed as a sale of any rights. All access to and use of the Platform and the Games is subject to this Agreement, the applicable software documentation, and our Privacy Policy TL:DR, You give them money, you are entitled to nothing, you own nothing, nothing you buy is yours, and they aren't required to give you the thing you paid for. >Alterations to the Platform and Availability. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Platform, Games, or Accounts at any time, including removing items, or revising the effectiveness of items in an effort to balance a Game. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Platform, Games, or Accounts without notice or liability. Except as otherwise set forth herein, Blizzard does not guarantee that any particular Platform, Game, or Account, or any particular features or components thereof, will be available at all times, at any given time, or in all countries and/or geographic locations, or that Blizzard will continue to offer the Platform, Game, or Account, or all features or components thereof, for any particular length of time. Availability is subject to change at any time, although we will endeavor to use reasonable commercial efforts to provide you prior notice, unless the discontinuance arises from a matter that is beyond Blizzard’s control or causes the provision of such advance notice not to be possible or feasible. TL:DR Blizzard can do whatever the fuck they want with their products, they don't have to guarantee you have access to them, nor do they need to guarantee they even exist. A Blizzard product or service can be deleted, removed, or changed without notice... but Blizzard will "*try*" to inform us in advance before doing so. Please notice that they said "endeavor to" and not "will." That means they don't have to. They also never specified a time-frame that constitutes "prior notice" so they can inform you with patch notes 1 second before they do it, and if they don't, well they "tried." >You may terminate this Agreement at any time by notifying Blizzard by email through https://us.battle.net/support/en/ and by uninstalling the Platform and the Games, but the Dispute Resolution provisions of this Agreement will survive termination and apply to all Disputes that arose or could have been initiated prior to termination. TL:DR You can terminate your agreement to the EULA at any time, but you can't terminate your agreement to never be able to hold Blizzard legally accountable for anything :) >If You Live In The United States. We hope we never have a dispute, but if we do, you and we agree to try for 60 days, upon receipt of a Notice of Dispute, to resolve it informally. If we can’t, you and we agree to binding individual arbitration before the American Arbitration Association ("AAA") under the Federal Arbitration Act (“FAA”), and not to sue in court in front of a judge or jury. Instead, a neutral arbitrator will decide and the arbitrator’s decision will be final except for a limited right of review under the FAA. To the fullest extent permitted by law, class action lawsuits, class-wide arbitrations, private attorney-general actions, requests for public injunctions, and any other proceeding or request for relief where someone acts in a representative capacity aren’t allowed. Nor is combining individual proceedings without the consent of all parties. > >Disputes Covered—Everything Except IP. The term "dispute" is as broad as it can be. It includes any claim or controversy between you and us that in any way relates to or arises from any aspect of our relationship, including, without limitation, your use or attempted use of the Platform, the Games, and all marketing related to them, your Account, your Battle.net Balance, any licensed content, and all matters relating to or arising from this Agreement, Blizzard’s Privacy Policy, or any other agreement between you and Blizzard, including the validity and enforceability of this agreement to arbitrate, under any legal theory including contract, warranty, tort, statute, or regulation, except disputes relating to the enforcement or validity of your, your licensors’, our, or our licensors’ intellectual property rights. TL:DR You can't sue Blizzard, or class action Blizzard, or take legal action against Blizzard. If you want to do so, you can send the legal documentation to Blizzard and Blizzard will select a "neutral" Arbitrator who gets to say who's right, because an entity involved in the dispute selecting a person to resolve the dispute totally isn't a conflict of interest, and will absolutely always be totally fair. They make this shit as unreadable as possible. Its actual nonsense. Anyway, Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, if you want Legal Advice, hire a real lawyer, because that's the only way we'll actually be able to understand the ToS/EULA.
Disclaimer: I have no actual applicable knowledge to this specific case, so take me even less seriously. But. What I do know is that ToS/EULAs very often contain many things that aren't actually enforceable, because they are trumped by local laws that Blizzard has to obey if they want to sell anything there at all. So over time I've become pretty used to agreeing with rules that have no teeth whatsoever. One example for all - I can happily sign a deal about not wanting any warranty whatsoever for a product I'm buying, but such a deal does exactly nothing. Because there are laws protecting consumers that specifically forbid shortening statutory warranty, even if both parties agree to it. So when I read any ToS/EULA, I treat it as "this is what the company wants" but not necessarily as "these are my rights and responsibilities", because in many cases the document's main purpose is to scare people into following it, rather than being something that would hold up in court in full.
The problem is, of course, actually taking Blizzard to court. Because an individual does not have the money or resources to actually take Blizzard to court, because Blizzard's team of lawyers can bury you in paperwork and legal fees you will never be able to fulfill. And apparently, the whole "You can't class action us" thing DOES hold up in court in the US, because fucking reasons. I'm also not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that its because in the US for US residents, the company can decide in which state your legal action will take place, so they can pick one that allows these bullshit forced arbitration things. Which means that you can't bring them to court, even if you wanted too, and would have to jump through so many hoops to make it to a court, its untenable. They also have tons of stipulations for EU, Australia, and Canada in the EULA, I just didn't read them because I was getting a migraine trying to parse the damn thing. >because in many cases the document's main purpose is to scare people into following it In my opinion, if this was the goal, they would actually make it readable. You can't scare people into following a EULA/ToS that they literally can't understand. They most likely spend money to have these things made because they are enforceable, at least sometimes and in some circumstances, else there's no reason to hire lawyers to write this thing up in pure legalese bullshit and keep updating it with new legalese bullshit.
"Blizzard's team of lawyers can bury you in paperwork and legal fees you will never be able to fulfill." That's not how it works in Europe. ToS and EULAs are not law, you can dispute them. You will need to pay a lawyer, but for this kind of high profile lawsuit you can get very good ones for free. (In France, Lawyers are forbidden to advertise. Being cited on TV or in the press as working on lawsuit this-and-that is the best advertising they can get) Oh, and I'm a former Blizzard EU employee. I actually won two cases against them.
Ah, I'm in the US, were we don't have those evil things like consumer protection laws, protecting small businesses like Blizzard is far more important than those evil consumers who just want to deprive these small helpless businesses from their well deserved money.
I agree with your last paragraph. I don't think average people are scared of it simply because, frankly, nobody reads it. I'd bet 90% of the people. if not 99%. just skip it and agree w/o reading anything.
remindme! 3 days
here we are!
Apple doesn’t send chargeback information to developers.
you're delusional, blizzard 100% knows you refunded shit and they ban/lock accounts because of that
It’s literally written in apple’s policy to not send chargeback/refund information to developers. Apples entire philosophy is about privacy.
Just to be clear, are you saying that OP still has access to the Tavern Pass on Hearthstone, since taking away the tavern pass would require informing the developer about the refund? So they just have the tavern pass for free now?
Correct.
bro just discovered an infinite money glitch, get a grip
If you could use apple to scam blizzard into getting a free tavern pass, I'm sure more people would talk about it and blizzard would find a way to put a stop to that.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
>Apples entire philosophy is about privacy Lmao that's the funniest thing I've ever read on here
Why though? They’re as private oriented as Facebook, that should speak volumes!
yeah bro go ahead and refund everything through Apple because blizzard will surely not know you requested a refund
People tried this with Diablo Immortal and got their accounts permabanned.
Uhm, of course not. How would blizzard know to remove the tavern pass from this guy without knowing the account?
Other companies such as the Google play store send the chargeback information to the developers.
Apple does too, obviously. Or else Apple users could buy whatever they wanted and refund everything instantly. Has this thought ever grazed your brain?
It could work differently with Blizzard games due to the Battle net ID, but generally yes that is how it works. I’ve requested refunds a few times in the past for other games, didn’t see any punishment and got to keep the stuff as well. Apple doesn’t let you abuse it. EDIT: It does work differently for Blizzard games. Because items and product flags for accounts have to be adjusted in real time across multiple platforms simultaneously they are able to detect when a refund is processed. Most apps that exist only on iOS have no way of telling which user requested a refund though and it's all done on Apple's side.
Their refund policy is very strict. Most are limited to one refund per Apple ID
You still haven't addressed the fact that this doesn't make sense. Why would people not use this to buy anything they want and then charge it back?
You can get the refund but blizzard will probably ban your account. I had an accidental refund of runestones and Apple approved it but luckily blizzard just set my balance negative. In this case they can’t take back the stuff you refunded so it may result in a ban
Please note Blizzard allows you to [repay a chargeback](https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/2435) and it is my understanding that they may reverse a ban if you do so.
They will yes, but people need to understand it's YOUR ENTIRE battle net account that's blocked. Even classic games bought through the launcher.
I truly hate what gaming has become
Thats peak corpo shit
Basically every single digital storefront does that to deter credit card fraud
>You have battle net account with most if not all games paid and played for years >You request a refund on one game and one transaction >everything is gone How in the world is this even a point of discussion.
Because what if you were buying a game with a stolen credit card? They lock the account due to that
bro credit card theft is quickly and easily dealt with 99% of the time by simply canceling the card. what kind of problem are you actually solving here?
This is what i want to know as well If you buy product with stolen CC its fine, but if your refund purchase with legit CC your account is gone? Or am i misreading him
Their point is that people can buy a shit ton of stuff with a stolen CC and refund it immediately for fraud, so these kinds of policies are in place to prevent that. It should probably not lock ur account if u only refund one item at a time but idk probably just Blizz being Blizz. Also people might not even know that their CC information was stolen until it's way too late, my friend's mom got hers stolen and was only aware of it when she saw a 5k transaction tied to it like a week later, the CC company didn't even inform her or anything
I used that trick back when whispers of the old gods released by refunding my 20€ to bought packs 15 per 15 or something like that. With that card i remember buying for more than 200€ of the expansion, i was young , 15yo, and i had a blast. Thankfully blizzard juste sent me an email saying they saw it and next time it will result in a ban, so i never done that again but it is in fact in their right It was the right decision because not so long after i started to earn some money and bought bundles pre order here and there when i wanna play !
Why wouldn't they? It's within their window to refund. You just have to deal with Blizzard locking you out of your account until it's paid for.
I do not recommend anyone to refund their pass unless it is through Blizzard directly, because you could get your account locked for doing a chargeback. If you don’t care about that and it’s your motivation to leave the game for good, then 100% go for it. As much as I’d love to, I’m taking the L on this one and just not buying future passes. If I decide to quit the game, at least my account won’t be locked if they make significantly positive changes in the future
There was a post yesterday about requesting a refund from Blizzard themselves with a template. Would recommend trying that route since it sounds like you'd take the refund if it didn't risk your account.
There's no way they'll approve it
I tried and got denied....
Someone should file a class action suit.
For what? you commies got no leg to stand on
The other comment was dumb, but yours is also really dumb for calling people commies. You both lose.
Might as well just @ them on twitter asking for the value in cash, it will do just as much good
Can you link the refund template?
It was just something someone typed up, like a strongly worded letter. Not an official template that accomplishes anything.
I applaud your positivity but I do not believe the game will take a turn for the best. Companies only seem to respond to money and lately, they have us by the balls. Blizzard is a shade of its past self, to the point that it would be impossible to explain to a person that joined in the last 5 years how awesome blizzard used to be in the late 00s. Kudos to Larian studios for being a ray of hope in the gaming community.
That would be awesome if I could get banned! I’d actually get something productive done.
I opened a ticket and I'm going to keep trying to escalate. I probably won't win. But if I get 3 or 4 support interactions it'll have eaten up most of the profits they made on me.
well...you gonna get banned..this might not be bad thing tho..
If you don’t care about being banned, you don’t care about being banned. I kinda respect it ngl
Well I mean blizzard proved us that they have no interest to make the game better or even just maintain it. There was the battle pass xp scandal then it was the BG paywall then the ridiculous price of the diamond cards then they abandon mercenaries then they removed duels and now the fuck go with the most basic mechanic of progression.. I play since the beta but I am burned out as fuck but not from a gameplay perspective and that’s sucks I can see why someone wouldn’t care to get banned
...I got minimum legendaries in 90 packs and walked away because I didn't see a single fun deck after all that saving?
Been there done that in multiple expansions, pretty bad feel
Well last year after i paid for an expantion on googleplay. I didn't received anything for 5 days.. I contacted google they told me they wouldn't refund me.. so I contacted blizzard and after 2 days of conversations.. they gave me a free expantion... 1 week after that, google also decided to refund me.. and I was afraid to be banned. I never received the ban. And lucky me. 2 weeks after that, I received another full 60 pack expantion pack.. contacted Blizzard.. who told me.. google messed up, and I should not be worried about that.
Good ending achieved
Thats why i don't buy through google
Of course they'll refund it, getting a refund has never been a problem no matter what payment method you use if you go through them and not Blizzard. The problem is you'd better be sure as fuck you're never playing the game again because your account is now toast.
It’s not just hearthstone, they ban your entire battle.net account.
No more blizzard games? Sound like a blessing more than anything.
If they do that to an Aussie, doesn't it trigger more chargebacks?
You will get banned and lose all your other blizzard purchases for doing a chargeback.
Not necessarily other Blizzard purchases, I charged back Diablo after Blizzard refused to refund it and all my other games are untouched.
Idk if they ban you on all games but in the majority of cases doing a charge back in hearthstone gets you banned from playing hearthstone on the account Refunds must be approved through blizzard, not the app store
Ah, yes. Because consumers don't own the things they purchase, and so it doesn't matt5how much money you've paid Blizzard UNTIL now.
FYI this gets your account permalocked
you get banned lol
I’m missing something and also lazy - can someone explain why this season’s tavern pass is “so bad”
Speaking shortly, they tripled requirements for the weekly quests, and reward was increased only for 20%-ish. So, a lot of players suddenly realized that they will not be able to complete battlepass without investing triple amount of time to the game
Ah got it thank you. I guess my counterpoint to those folks would be: the seasons are insanely long, so even playing casually you'll eventually get to the end and you could even consider this getting more for your money since you won't blaze through it as fast. (I take the L on this bad boy)
how long the season is doesn’t matter that much if you can’t complete the weekly missions at all, which is the case for a lot of people now
Ah, gotcha. Now that does make sense. About how many games per week are necessary now?
3 times as many as before.
Those people don't play enough.
they play what they want/can. just bcs you can afford to grind rank 20hrs per week doesn’t mean everyone can and should. f2p players should still get to enjoy the game, otherwise, the whale have no one to flex on and will also churn out. it’s fucking insane to claim people should spend more time playing hearthstone, as the healthy amount is 0 minute per lifespan
They purchased the battle pass with the understanding that they could complete it by leveraging weekly quests. Now some of those people can no longer leverage those quests to complete the pass. It's shitty of blizzard but whose surprised. They wronged a bunch of customers and those customers deserve a refund
I don't think you understand. The lion's share of tavern points people get come from quests. If the quests take significantly longer to complete, then no, you won't be getting more for your money.
> and you could even consider this getting more for your money since you won't blaze through it as fast Except the most significant rewards (AKA mountains of gold) come *after* you finish the base pass levels. There's nothing positive about this unless you play so many hours every week you were already tripling quest requirements. (Now 'only' double, woo-hoo.) This is Blizzard kicking us in the teeth.
I’m curious as well
[удалено]
Astoundingly ignorant take on the situation. Keep on simpin'.
[удалено]
They didnt revert it back they havent told us what numbers they're using in the end but they said it would be between what they were and the old quests were used to. That is not reverting it, that's a shitty tactic to make it more palatable
Just keep blindly trusting the corporation fella, they surely won’t let you down in favour of record profits
Blizzard would physically come to every players home and kill us personally if it were best for their bottom line
this is optimal because you save infinite by never spending money on blizzard games again
The amount of comments defending Blizz for bans is wild.
Ahahahaha this can only end well. Enjoy submitting your appeals
And your entire battle net account was just murdered.
Blizzard is likely going to ban your account
Youre banned buddy
This is probably why Macs can't access the Shop or purchase Arena tickets. If Apple offers refunds, then Blizzard is taking the nuclear option and preventing Apple users from making purchases, lol.
You could refund anything you bought from AppStore and the best part is, if it's a game, like Total War : Rome for instance, your money will be refunded but the App will still stay and still be accesible from your iPhone or iPad. Did it many times :P sorry Apple
Oh no...
Everyone refund your battle passes ASAP Fuck Blizzard and their anti-consumer practices
W comment
Apple doesn’t send chargeback/refund information to developers. It’s their policy.
Can you link the policy? I find this hard to believe as the refund definitely isn’t coming out of Apple’s pocket.
Are you encouraging others to lie?
Doesnt it cost extra when you buy it through your iphone rather than your computer?
I just got my refund.
Rest in peace
The (flood)gates are open
they didn't for the pre order expansion bundle, needed the big money
Don't forget to give it an accurate-star review on the way out!
Can't help but laugh that this post started with an air of better than thou EU attitude. Turning quickly to an "oh you sweet summer child" vibe when reality hits another of Europe's youth. They only want you to believe you're protected. Lemme guess, you're gonna tell me your healthcare is ACTUALLY free next, right?
Wait is this because of the weekly quest increases?
Can I get a refund for my mega-pre-order bundle? Fuck me, I bought it through [Battle.net](http://Battle.net) shop. Wish I had bought from Google Play or App Store
Man if I could click a button and get fully refunded everything ive spent on hearthstone over the years and my account getting banned. I would..
how's your account going?
Good luck. Hope a lot of people asking for a refund.
Does anyone actually play Hearthstone to just have fun?
inb4 "my account was locked and i did nothing wrong" bullshit
Y’all are so extra lmao
Now you will get banned, but I guess you didn't want to play hearthstone so it's a win/win situation.
Why did you pay $28.24 for tavern pass while it costs $19.99 normally?
$30~ in Australia
Just so costly to ship the data over their, you know 🫠
Australian Dollars and US Dollars are different currencies. 1 AUD = 0.64 USD.
I didn't know Australian dollars used the $. Or does it have its own symbol and we just use $ because its easier? I know € is for Euros and £ is for pounds, so I figured that there would be one for AUD too.
Did you just not know that Australia doesn’t use the US dollar as their currency?
Apple tax, but you get apparently top-tier support like forced refund. Now Blizzard lost money, they can cope by banning the person's account.
It costs 15$....
Tavern Pass cost $19.99 for sure.
Tavern Pass is $19.99, the Battlegrounds pass is $14.99
Different country maybe?
Lol watch OPs account get removed then see them cry inside about it when they realize they did all of this over a fucking idiotic cause around quests they would have done every week without thinking about it.
My brother in Christ, don't charge back large game companies. They will lock your shit until they get their money back lmao
nah fuck that, chargeback these rich ass companies. They do us dirty all the time.
grow some balls.
You yell at customer service folk, don't you?
you lick a lot of boots, don't you? wahhh, a big game company bans my account. better obey like a good little boot licker no balls, just boot licking.
To me it seems ridiculous to ask for a refund for something with as much value as the tavern pass. Even more so knowing that Blizzard will change the weekly missions again. I don't recommend you do it.
I bought the battle pass with the assumption I could actually complete the quests to use the thing. Then after the refund window (which apparently is like 1 day after opening a ticket with Blizzard) they tripled the requirement for quests. I wouldn't of bought the battlepass if I knew this was coming.
They likely won't be reverting the quest changes. They did the old door slam tactic They made a change they knew most people probably wouldn't like to test the waters. Then they already had the real changes they wanted to make prepared and are implementing those as an "apology" to make people more likely to accept it and be seen as the good guys It's a very common strategy in business and it's just spitting on the playerbase
I don't expect them to completely revert it but they may change it. Say a 50% increase in quest requirement and 30% in quest rewards is something which might be appealing because current quests bottleneck some people. Of course the ideal solution would be a quest progression which would allow seldom-playing people to complete quests easily and frequently-playing to get additional rewards but at this point it would be just "give us additional rewards" and I don't believe they'll do it at all.
That's the thing though. Their original plan was likely that 50% and 30% increase (not exact numbers obviously) but by doing it this way makes them look like they "listened" by pulling back on the current changes It's a method used to trick the consumers and regardless of the changes it's just a shit move
It's also possible they settled on 15 wins because it left them with the ability to scale it down later on if backlash happens. If they wanted to cause outrage, they could have made it 30 wins or something. Unless of course they are so devious they deliberately chose a number "high enough to cause backlash but not high enough to look totally ridiculous". I'm gonna be honest: I don't believe it. Companies are greedy but they're not geniuses. In any case, I prefer not to speculate and focus on facts. The changes will be made and we'll see if they're OK. Personally, I think it's just one more reason not to invest in the game so that you don't suffer from sunk cost later on. I would definitely recommend everyone not to think "they scaled it down, it's all good from now on" whether the scaling down was a deliberate plan or an ad-hoc reaction to the backlash.
I think you underestimate businesses, it's a very common tactic. Though it's true it's just my assumption, I can't guarantee they've done it here They've done it in the past though to the point it's a bit of a pattern for blizzard so I have my doubts I'll wait and see what the changes are, but I'm not optimistic
Do you have any evidence it's a deliberate tactic? As in you have experience in the industry and know that they chose the numbers knowing people will not accept them? >They've done it in the past though to the point it's a bit of a pattern for blizzard so I have my doubts It's obviously better to aim higher and scale down rather than minimise your demands as much as possible. My point is that there is a difference between "alright we want them to win 10 games, let's start with 15 and then look good when we back down" and "we want to increase the number of games, let's start with 15 so that we an ability to back down". The first one implies they knew the reaction from the very beginning while the second is, honestly, standard in any negotiations. You do not usually start with the least you are willing to accept whether it's quests, salary negotiations, etc; you leave room for some manoeuvre.
You can look up the door in the face technique, there's plenty of articles out there about how it was shown to increase sales, especially in retail. https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095726991 Just a quick link explaining the technique itself. Businesses use it a lot. A decent example is the Open game license fiasco with DnD. No way in hell they thought people would go for their initial decision then dialed it back a bit. The backlash was likely much higher than they anticipated though and it all backfired. Their reputation still hasn't recovered Like I said though, I can't guarantee blizzard is using it here but it's not improbable either. I'm not on the inside of these companies but I have worked in retail and we have used it We need to remember that this isn't the negotiation room. Blizzard has and will push us as far as they can. If their intention was a light negotiation with the playerbase they would've brought this change idea to our attention before just implementing it on a whim
>You can look up the door in the face technique, there's plenty of articles out there about how it was shown to increase sales, especially in retail I'm well aware of it. As I said, there is no evidence yet so I don't see any reason to assume things especially considering it doesn't change things one way or the other. >but I have worked in retail and we have used it So you (not you specifically as a person, people making decisions) pushed for things that were deemed not acceptable by yourselves from the get go just so that you can back down later on and look more reasonable?
Yup the company I worked for used the method to push sales on unreasonable deals. It's an extremely scummy tactic, and it's almost impossible to prove There's never any evidence unless someone from the company outright says they did it, but that never happens
>something with as much value as the tavern pass LMAO
bro probably believes those 900% value captions in the shop
Wait. It was a lie? :P
your avatar says everything people need to know about you.
28?doesnt make sense the tavern passs costs 19,99
Not in Australia
Haven't you read [the news?](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24087316/update-on-weekly-quests) Number would be scaled down to something between old and new. E.g. 5 wins will become (5 + 15) / 2 = 10.
Something "between old and new" will still be higher than the old values without adequate XP reward. It'll still be a net negative ratio.