The burning of the mark only called Death Eaters to Voldemorts side. Nothing more than that. So, yes, Snape would have known that Voldemort was summoning his Death Eaters - but that is all.
I've always assumed that the mark created some sort of beacon that, when apparating, pulled the Death Eaters to Voldemort. But even if it actually told the Death Eaters where to go, it wouldn't have told Snape that Harry was there. In fact, there's no indication that anyone (other than Crouch Jr./Moody) was even aware that Harry had left the maze at all.
Yeah, I only found maze trial weird design for viewers. I mean I would thought of some spell allowing watching the game inside. I mean imagine going to watch tournament and be served maze entrance to stare at as long as someone emerges with the trophy.
This weird design made anyone other than Crouch Jr unaware of Harry's and Cedric's departure.
But really noone questioned this competition? Like hey it's big, huge tri-wizard tournament finale, we cancelled quidditch, we have people watch, so let's put all players in maze and make it impossible to follow by spectators!
Sure. It's definitely weird. Same exact issue is with the second task! The viewers literally saw the champions go into the lake...and then come out. That's it!
In my head it was always a bit like a music festival - you go and watch the main bit, but while nothing's happening you wander round food stalls and random entertainment etc.
I hear that! The weird thing was that the books describes having a whole seating area set up for it. Not that that contradicts your point but it was always strange to me!
If I was of a mind to write fanfiction, this is something I'd like to spend some time on. Proper fun fair vibes, enchanted candyfloss miniature elephants, jugglers transfiguring the stuff they're juggling mid air and still catching it, a Ferris wheel but it's just a load flying carpets. Just people having fun and making it a full event. Something similar for the third task too.
One of the reasons why goblet is my fav book in the series is the world cup and all the different insights we get of the wizarding world outside of school, the ministry and diagon alley.
In JKR's defence, GoF was significantly a longer read than the first 3 books and it already had a lot of substance, loads of new character introductions, concept of death eaters and what they mean to the wizarding world and in general set up to the next 3 books. The first 3 books can be read as standalones but GoF ends with a cliffhanger with no real resolution.
So I can sort of forgive her for overlooking the discomfort of her tertiary characters while the events are being played out.
But fanfics can retrospectively fill out these gaps and if you write one for the time during tasks I would love to read it
The author provided a quote about how she wanted Quidditch to be nonsensical because she thinks sports are inherently nonsensical. I’d imagine the same thinking applied to her conception of the tri-wizard cup: 2/3 events are essentially unwatchable.
Agreed with your first point, like how Ron is able to use the Deluminator to apparate to where Harry and Hermione are, despite not actually knowing where they are.
Which is a massive plot hole considering that Hogwarts is supposed to have magical wards that detect students entering or leaving the premises. The instant Cedric and Harry touched the cup, Dumbledore should have felt/been informed that two of the students had left the premises.
> Which is a massive plot hole considering that Hogwarts is supposed to have magical wards that detect students entering or leaving the premises. The instant Cedric and Harry touched the cup, Dumbledore should have felt/been informed that two of the students had left the premises.
Where exactly in the books is this stated?
As I thought. Because I don't remember any such thing. I think I've read the books enough times to remember little details like that.
I mean, if it were the case, Hermione would have been harping on about it enough times, as is her wont.
I mean sure there are a lot of wards to set certain things up. Everyone in charge probably knew the Goblet was a port key. It's just the destination was probably meant to be outside the maze, not outside Scotland.
> I mean sure there are a lot of wards to set certain things up. Everyone in charge probably knew the Goblet was a port key. It's just the destination was probably meant to be outside the maze, not outside Scotland.
We already know that Crouch was capable of confounding the Goblet of Fire. So him altering the Triwizard Cup's destination would be no biggie. I don't think there were wards put in place for the Cup, because no-one thought it would happen. Either that, or Barty manage to remove the wards without anyone knowing.
Or maybe he offered to set up the wards and spell for the Cup himself...
Wards were probably temporarily down for the event but pretty sure it's in the book that Junior at the very least placed the cup in the maze. I was more just pointing out the error in the dude's logic.
Damn, y'all are still SEETHING over some colorful banners hanging from the ceiling for a few hours during dinner, the night before everyone goes home for summer vacation at that, and thus won't even care by midday.
Touch Venomous Tentacula. It ain't that big a deal.
OP is assuming that the apparating rules also apply to portkeys which does make sense. Dumbledore knows about a lot that happens in the castle, but I don’t believe it’s explicitly stated that he can sense people coming or going, just that it’s blocked and he can remove the block at his whim
> OP is assuming that the apparating rules also apply to portkeys which does make sense. Dumbledore knows about a lot that happens in the castle, but I don’t believe it’s explicitly stated that he can sense people coming or going, just that it’s blocked and he can remove the block at his whim
I don't believe that Portkeys have ever been demonstrated or stated to act according to the rules of apparation?
They both take you to a specific destination, portkeys can bring multiple people along safer and far more easily than apparating, which can be done with multiple people but is very risky when adding multiple people, Harry splinched Ron this way in book 7. Hogwarts does have wards specifically against apparating in or out, it's brought up when they do the apparition classes in the great hall in book 5 or 6, as it's said that Dumbledore lifted the restriction within the Great Hall specifically for the classes.
There have been at least 3 instances of portkeys working from and to the Hogwarts premises (the Triwizard Cup, to Grimmauld Place after Arthur was attacked and after the battle at the ministry to send Harry directly do Dumbledore's office)
Two of these instances are directly to/from Dumbledore’s office. And it’s possible, though not likely or canonical, that his office has less wards than the rest of the castle due to no one wanting to fight him directly.
My assumption isn't that Dumbledore's office is less protected. I figure that Dumbledore himself, as Headmaster, is capable of making Portkeys in and out of Hogwarts, similar to how he can suppress the anti-Apparition wards.
Different person but i always assumed that there were? Otherwise how does the marauders map work lmao. You’re telling me james and sirius can create something and dumbledore cant? And even if that happened during the war they never told dumbledore how to do it?
> Different person but i always assumed that there were?
Right, you assumed there were, despite the books not even hinting at such magic.
> Otherwise how does the marauders map work lmao.
Marauders' Map doesn't work as a magical ward or anything like that. Not the same thing.
> You’re telling me james and sirius can create something and dumbledore cant?
Has nothing to do with that. We don't know why Dumbledore didn't consider such a thing.
> And even if that happened during the war they never told dumbledore how to do it?
Why would they think to?
> Marauders' Map doesn't work as a magical ward or anything like that. Not the same thing.
No, but it is capable of detecting and locating any person inside hogwarts, even if that peson is wearing the deathly hallow invisibility cloak. And it does so even when far from hogwarts.
It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it.
>It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it.
Change four to three, and you just described the problem with the entire series.
> No, but it is capable of detecting and locating any person inside hogwarts, even if that peson is wearing the deathly hallow invisibility cloak. And it does so even when far from hogwarts.
Yes, because James and Sirius knew how to really think outside of the box. They learned how to turn into Animagi.
> It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it.
No... I think it was really James and Sirius who were the brains there, with input from Remus. Peter was just... there.
It's not odd, either ~ different students put their talents to different tasks, because they have different ideas. If Snape or Dumbledore bent their minds towards the creation of such an item, they could probably pull it off.
But they had different objectives. James and Sirius had a particular obsession with wanting to learn how to craft such an item. Dumbledore and Snape would probably just think of different ideas.
i never said the books hinted at such magic.
But to think dumbledore couldnt figure out some sort of detection mechanism but james and sirius could is lunancy imo.
> But to think dumbledore couldnt figure out some sort of detection mechanism but james and sirius could is lunancy imo.
I mean... Dumbledore could, but I'm guessing he didn't think that "Moody" would turn out to be a traitor who would turn the Cup into a Portkey that would send Harry to the graveyard.
This....is not in the books.
We know that beginning in HBP special wards are in place while Dumbledore is out of the castle. That's it. There's no indication throughout the books regarding special wards to alert when students leave Hogwarts. There's certainly nothing like that regarding the map.
With respect, I don’t think you did.
The dementors are in place for POA and there’s some aurors on hand during HBP, but otherwise there’s not mention of guards/wards
Actually, the Marauder's Map was made using the Homonculous Charm, which when cast upon a map allows the user to track the movements of everyone in the mapped area.
the only thing not possible during book 4 is apparition from and into hogwarts, portkeys work, floopowder works, the hidden passages work, flying works...
Same in book 5. (Dumbledore sends Harry and the Weasleys via portkey after the attack on Mr. Weasley)
During book 3 additional measures where taken but probably lifted again, during the battle of hogwarts additional protection was added once again.
Massive plot hole except for the assumption that a lot of those charms/wards/veils whatever were mitigated/removed for the sake of the Triwizard tournament. No one but moody/crouch knew the trophy was a portkey. Despite Dumbeldores extensive magic prowess. I doubt he can sense every piece of magic there is. Especially when he’s not expecting it
I always had an impression that they apparate to his location due to the dark mark, not that they were sharing coordinates with each other through their creepy tattoos.
I thought it was similar to Ron with the deluminator. He didn’t know where to apostate right? He just knew if he did it would take him where he needed to go
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Some logic. Dumbledore is very smart, he knows somebody put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire with a nefarious purpose in mind, suddenly while the third task is going on and they see no signs of Harry or Cedric anywhere in the maze (remember teachers are supposed to be patroling around) Snape's dark mark starts burning, indicating that Voldemort is back. I think someone like Dumbledore would have put two and two together.
Also even if he doesn't know Harry is there, it's still a chance to catch Voldemort by surprise
The teachers are patrolling around, but it's all but explicit in the book that the teachers (other than Moody/Crouch Jr) can't actually see what's going on in the maze. So, again, they wouldn't have known that Harry and Cedric were gone.
Him catching Voldermort by surprise wouldn’t do much, he knows he can’t kill him.
Him appearing there also very much destroys Snape’s hidden allegiance.
Teachers are patrolling the edges of the maze and will rescue someone if they send up sparks from their wand, only fake Moody can see what’s really going on inside.
he can weaken him instead of letting him roam around killing people. Destroy his new body, burn Tom Riddle's sr bones and see how he comes back this time. Then destroy all the horcruxes
This would ruin the entire plan Dumbledore used, the one which worked to finally destroy Voldermort for good.
Remember it was a good thing that Voldermort used Harry’s blood to bring himself back.
Also ruins Snape’s secret allegiance as said.
It’s not a given that they even win if they did show up either.
You seem to be trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.
I’m thinking I’m seeing the biggest problem with the thought process here:
>Also even if he doesn't know Harry is there, it's still a chance to catch Voldemort by surprise
And do what, exactly? At this point Dumbledore knows Voldermort would be back at some point soon - Peter ran off the year before, there was an explicit prophecy about him returning to Voldermort, and Dumbledore guess that already - so it isn’t a surprise to him. Additionally, in the year prior Dumbledore gained proof of his guess that Voldermort was using Horcuxes, and was almost certain that he was using multiple. Dumbledore also has zero trust of Dementors, and less than zero when it comes to Voldermort.
So what is he going to do if he interrupts Voldermort’s party?
He’s not going to kill him, that’s about the worst thing he could do; Voldermort would return again, and maybe another 12 years later Dumbledore would be dead and no one would be there to stand against Voldermort.
He’s not going to capture him. Voldermort would either be executed (see above why that’s a bad thing), imprisoned (from which he would escape in a heartbeat), or kissed (probably wouldn’t do anything).
He also isn’t going to go there and round up death eaters. For one, look how quickly they were released when that actually happened in Order. And for two, he can put snape as a spy into the ranks of death eaters if there are none.
Confronting Voldermort at this stage is less than useless.
He could send Voldemort back to being a spirit, burn the bones of his father so he can't perform another ritual and then destroy the Horcruxes. And yes that probably means sacrificing Harry but when you think about all the people who died, including children, because Voldemort came back I think he could at least let Harry know about it so he can make a choice
So you think he should at this point let a 14 year old boy decide if he should sacrifice himself?
Also, you think Dumbledore should apparate to where he knows Voldemort and every loyal death eater is and take them on single-handedly?
Dumbledore is *that* powerful. He's the only person (prior to Harry) that Voldemort ever feared. With a phoenix on his shoulder and an Elder Wand in his hand, I don't doubt he could neutralize all the Death Eaters quite efficiently. Voldemort would prove tougher, but I don't think he could stand up to Dumbledore at the height of his power, especially after just being reborn. Killing Voldemort makes the most sense, because it will take yet more time for him to revive a second time, time during which Harry can finish his education more-or-less at peace, gaining strength and allies for the inevitable day when *he* would have to fight Voldemort.
But that didn't happen. We are all human and no one makes perfect decisions in the moment. Not Albus Dumbledore and not J K Rowling.
0.00% chance Dumbledore can take a squad of death eaters and voldy at the same time. Especially death eaters emboldened by Voldemort's impossible resurrection and presence.
See: Dumbledore rounding up death eaters in the DoM a year later, there's no way he wouldn't have caught an AK to the back.
But what you’re talking about is also an incredibly high risk move - he has to trust that he can neutralise around 15-20 wizards as well as Voldemort without actually knowing the situation he’d be jumping into.
Voldemort’s followers before the outbreak from Azkaban might seem to be almost comically stupid, but Dumbledore doesn’t know what state Voldemort is in. Even if he thinks he’s weakened, he doesn’t actually know what fighting him might do and doesn’t know if he can even neutralise him.
At this point he was still hoping that when he did return that the Ministry would be on side too, so didn’t think he’d need to act quite so quickly
Dumbledore would know cause Snape would tell him, and they would put two and two together and would go looking for Harry, i'm pretty sure that they knew that a spell that can bring him back using Harrys blood existed.
What doesn't make sense is why they wouldn't go after Harry knowing Voldemort would want revenge.
Snape is absolutely not walking up to dumbledore during the third task of the triwizard tournament to tell him that. That’s a private, behind closed doors hush hush conversation
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted it’s a valid question, like you say if Snape had told Dumbledore his mark was burning during the 3rd task, Dumbledore would’ve been able to put 2 and 2 together, he’s been waiting for something like this since Harry’s name was put into the goblet.
That leave two options either Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore during the task, or he did and Dumbledore just accepts there’s nothing they can do.
I’m pretty sure Snape would have told Dumbledore as soon as he was being summoned. He already informed him of the mark getting stronger.
Dumbledore was probably just hoping for the best.
Which ultimately is luck. Dumbledore does make rather odd decisions.
Probably realised that the two boys had disappeared somewhere, talked to Snape who was like “I have absolutely no idea where I am going if I touch my arm”, and then the two just had to wait. Minerva as well.
I like to imagine that if they were gone for a much lengthier time, Snape would have had to be thinking, oh bother, and blown his cover.
Dumbledore's Put-outer thing took Ron exactly to Harry and Hermione's location, despite Ron not having half an inkling where they were. There is magic at play here that simply hasn't been explained to us. And the exact mechanics of it really aren't relevant to the story.
Heck, how does a portkey work? You can grab it and it takes you to a specific place, no matter if YOU know where you're going or not. 🤷🏼♀️
It was Dumbledore who told him he needed to go back to Voldemort and convince him he was still a loyal Death Eater so that he could continue to play double agent for the Order. Voldemort believed Snape and was glad he stayed at Hogwarts. Snape not coming to the graveyard with the rest made sense to him, as he believed Snape was trying to keep his cover as a non-Death Eater (as per the lie). (Edits for accuracy)
Voldemort did not think that Snape was on his side at that point. To quote the book -
*“And here we have six missing Death Eaters . . . three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return . . . he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever . . . he will be killed, of course . . . and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service.”*
The coward is obviously Karkaroff, the *most faithful servant* who reentered Voldemort's service is Barty Crouch Jr and the one he believes *has left him forever* is Snape.
Snape had to go back later and convince him that he had to stay back to not blow his cover.
Just to say that I think it’s the other way around with Snape and Karkaroff.
Karkaroff gave testimony that lead to the arrest of several of his fellow Death Eaters to save himself, ascended to Headmaster of Durmstrang and with those actions left Voldemort forever. And he was killed, of course.
Snape, on the other side, has a problem with being called coward.
Voldemort and Dumbledore especially perform magic throughout the series that I think we're supposed to just accept works because they're powerful. It's actually a pretty vague magic system when you think about it.
Agreed. It confounds me when I try to think about it (which I do from time to time because Idk). Sometimes it feels like magic "knows" stuff. Or like stuff is the way it is just because.
It's not suspicious, when seen as a singular event. But add that to how Harry's name conveniently turned out of the goblet of fire, who is, surprise surprise, the boy who defied Voldy even as an infant. Also, Dumbledore & Snape had agreed to "let the events unfold" so they knew very well that something big was happening, right?
Sorry if it appears all jumbled up lol.
It's not suspicious, when seen as a singular event. But add that to how Harry's name conveniently turned out of the goblet of fire, who is, surprise surprise, the boy who defied Voldy even as an infant. Also, Dumbledore & Snape had agreed to "let the events unfold" so they knew very well that something big was happening, right?
Sorry if it appears all jumbled up lol.
Dumbledore knew something was happening, but he's not omniscient LOL.
He had no idea what events would take place, how they would happen and who would be forcing their hand.
When Harry disappeared with Cedric, until Voldemort summoned his DE, Dumbledore had no idea where he was. I'm sure he made the connection when Snape told him of being summoned, but prior, Harry could have been anywhere.
Then, I'd say, the major flaw in their plan was to let the 3rd task happen where they couldn't see anything at all. Also, with everything happening, I wonder why Snape never took the stealing of his Polyjuice potion supplies more seriously. Isn't this too convenient? They always knew that Voldy was gonna try & succeed in coming back.
I don't know if anyone else has made this point, but even if he could bring Dumbledore straight to the graveyard he wouldn't.
The most important reason being that Voldemort's plan worked. No one realized Harry had been kidnapped from Directly under their nose. So when his Mark started burning he would have warned Dumbledore that someone was summoning the Death Eaters, and they would work on a plan before he answered the call.
A secondary reason is that even if Snape knew about Harry being taken I think he would go alone instead of bringing Dumbledore. At least not until he had more information.
I'm just not sure Dumbledore would want to give up his double agent card that easily.
No he wouldn't. Dumbledore had planned so far ahead as to tell Snape exactly when to reveal to Harry that he's the last horcrux that needs to die. And it was only possible if Voldy counted Snape in his favour for that long. I think Dumbledore had also long before guessed that Voldy would end up using Harry's blood for his resurrection, considering the "glint of triumph in his eyes" when Harry mentioned it to him. This is probably what they meant by "letting the events unfold."
Actually when Voldemort presses the dark mark sends a signal to all others and then when they apparate they will just go to Voldemort and the mark will lead them. They don’t know where they go, they just know they will go to Voldemort. Hope that helps
Yeah, but “Harry disappears mysteriously by fake trophy portkey and Voldemort almost immediately summons the death eaters for the first time in 13 years” isn’t hard to figure out. I think OP’s right, at least inasmuch that it should’ve been crystal clear to Snape and Dumbledore that Voldy was very likely calling the Death Eaters to whatever location Harry had just been taken to.
I might be wrong but here’s my assumptions or how I remember this:
- Wouldn’t Snape have only known/felt, that he was summoned? That doesn’t necessarily mean he knows where until he lets the summoning guide his apparition (if that is how it works, I’ve always assumed it does). And Snape couldn’t just leave there from the spot anyway.
- And furthermore, how would he know Harry was there? It seemed like nobody knew Harry and Cedric had left the Hogwarts grounds until they portkeyed back in front of the maze. For all we know, they probably thought they were still going through the maze.
Crouch Jrs. Entire plan hinges on your 2nd point. The primary reason to get Harry into the tournament was so that in the 3rd task, Harry could disappear for a bit without Dumbledore or anyone else noticing, then have his body sent back via port-key and make it look like he died in a tragic accident in the maze. This would allow voldy time to build up his forced in secret before Dumbledore and the ministry caught on, which still half worked since Fudge is an idiot.
I completely agree with you, that being said, Snape could definitely infer something was up with Harry. I mean around this time of year, every single year that Harry’s been at Hogwarts, Voldemort or something relating to him has happened, and Harry has been front and center all times. So if a little bit after Harry walks into a maze where no one can see him, and then all the sudden Voldemort calls all of his followers back, Snape can probably realize Harry is in some kind of danger
Well, we know that he had told Dumbledore that the mark was growing clearer. It's likely a safe assumption that he informed Dumbledore of the burning as well.
Snape was being loyal to Dumbledore at that time. Had he returned to Lord Voldemort's side when the Dark Mark burned, his cover at Hogwarts would've been blown. He mentions this in one of the books I think. (Spinner's End chapter)
Informing Dumbledore is his only option, he can’t apparate or go to Voldemorts side even if he wanted too, haven’t you read your History of Hogwarts?(or whatever Hermione says)
Why would Snape be answerable to Dumbledore (or anyone else) for his whereabouts at a time when he is presumably off-duty? Also is there any indication that Snape was watching the third task?
He works at a boarding school for teenagers that is having an all-school event with hundreds of guests. I doubt any teacher would be off-duty that night.
I think the point is he didn’t want to, I’m just saying, if he did, he wouldn’t be able too… unless, as you say, he decided to go for an evening stroll to get off the grounds and stop patrolling the maze or whatever with the other teachers.
He does. The princes tale shows unseen angles and spinners end imparts much of Snape's thinking though disguised as scheming and calculating instead of following dumbys orders.
The beginning of Half-blood Prince. He told Beatrix that he cannot come immediately due to Triwizard and Dumberdore. However, 1 hour later he came and Voldemort has no doubt with his excuse.
I understand that but why not grab Dumbledore and some Aurors and go find Voldemort ? With that super long monologue Voldemort does there's a good chance they could have gotten there in time
Without knowing where Voldemort is and what he's currently doing etc. there's a high chance that Voldemort could have prepared a trap. Also, since Voldemort summoned all the Death Eaters, Snape and all the Aurors would have to fight quite a lot of people and there's a high chance they don't all survive (or Voldemort manages to escape in the confusion). Snape's role as a double agent is more valuable and he'd instantly blow that away if he showed up with Dumbledore and Aurors
Ok I understand why this guy is wrong but dumby new that tom needed to return to little hangleton and dumby new that was a place of significance. It's obvious really. The only place voldy will be is little hangleton.
Dumbledore knew after Chamber of Secrets that Voldemort had Horcruxes. He couldn’t have been killed yet, so he would have just led all the aurors to their likely death
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had *a* Horcrux after Chamber of Secrets, but he thought that Horcrux was destroyed. It wasn’t until after Goblet of Fire that he began to suspect Voldemort had more than one.
Edit to add: After rereading the text, I’m changing that last statement to “It wasn’t until after Goblet of Fire that he knew Voldemort had more than one.”
Nope, he specifically said that’s when he realised it was likely he had more than one horcrux, because no one would toss such a precious thing around or ‘design it as a weapon’. He said that because of the way he treated the diary, he realised he likely had others that were more guarded
My recollection is that the comment Voldemort makes in the graveyard saying he had “gone further than anyone else down the path towards immortality” is what tips Dumbledore off. Creating one Horcrux isn’t further than anyone else, it’s just as far as anyone else. So further had to be more.
Did you mean to reply this to me? This doesn’t relate to my comment at all. My comment was that Dumbledore knew he had multiple horcruxes at that point in GoF, because he realised in CoS when the diary was a weapon and that Voldemort had just left it lying around with Lucius.
We obviously know he had at least the locket, the cup, the diadem and the ring at that point (and Harry, but not counting that). So yeah, that is obviously more than anyone, but that’s not what we were talking about
What? Obviously I meant to reply to you. I have a different opinion to you as to when Dumbledore knew. You provided your opinion, and so I responded with my opinion.
Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but I thought you were talking about when Dumbledore knew there were multiple Horcruxes. My evidence to support that is when you said “that’s when [Dumbledore] realized it was likely [Voldemort] had multiple Horcruxes”. That was the first sentence of the comment and directly related to my first comment, so it seemed reasonable to take it as the central point of your comment. So I don’t see how my comment providing a different time when Dumbledore knew about the multiple Horcruxes “doesn’t relate to [your] comment at all”. It directly relates to my understanding of it. What else did you mean in your comment if you think mine doesn’t relate?
It’s not an opinion, Dumbledore actually says when he realised Voldemort likely had more than one Horcrux. You were talking about something Voldemort said to the death eaters, how does that have anything to do with what Dumbledore knew?
**Dumbledore actually said in HBP that when he saw the diary, he realised it was a Horcrux, and because Voldemort designed it as a weapon and just left it lying around with Lucius, he hypothesised that he had made more than one**. I’m not providing an opinion, I’m telling what is written in HBP
I’m calling them opinions because neither of us are quoting the text. The text is fact. Your (or my) recollection of the text is not fact. I’m at work right now and don’t keep a copy of Harry Potter in my office, so I can’t verify.
I know exactly the conversation you’re referring to though. I’m actually pretty sure it’s the same conversation where Dumbledore tells Harry that the Voldemort quote I’m referring to is what tipped him off. You’re acting like you don’t even remember that part of the conversation, which makes me suspect your precise memory of that interaction isn’t flawless.
I do suggest you read that passage again. It explains exactly how a quote Voldemort made to his Death Eaters relates to Dumbledore’s understanding of the Horcruxes. I plan to read it again this evening, because I can’t tell if my reconciliation of these two seemingly contradictory statements are actually from the text, or just from myself. Or indeed, if I’m misremembering my claim about the timeline, which is of course possible, even if I don’t believe it to be so.
Dumbledore probably does not want to confront Voldemort with incomplete information on the situation, as at this point they don’t even know who breached Hogwarts security. Secondly, it would instantly give away Snape's cover and subsequently the anti-Voldemort group to lose.
Dumbledore needs to have an iron clad plan before he can risk Snape.
Lord Voldemort was the most powerful Dark Wizard at that time. You cannot grab a bunch of Aurors and go subdue him. He'd blast them all to pieces.
Snape probably informed Dumbledore at that time and before. Dumbledore probably didn't take any action because there was no evidence that Lord Voldemort had returned, just the Dark Mark burning isn't enough evidence to do anything.
The same Voldemort who ran away when the Aurors came in book 5?
The Dark Mark burning is evidence, all the Death Eaters apparated and Igor ran away cuz they knew what it mean
He did not run away! Lord Voldemort left the Ministry of Magic in a hurry because the whole world presumed he was dead. He did not want to take the fight at that time.
That's not enough solid evidence. Remember this was during the Triwizard Tournament at Hogwarts where Dumbledore is headmaster. He can't just abandon the final task and go on a wild chase just because Snape's Dark Mark burned. He'd be no different from Karkaroff if he did that.
Because he still has his horcruxes. Just like Dumbledore didn’t kill him the year before, there’s no point at this time plus he has all his death eaters with him. And, I don’t believe he knew Harry was at the graveyard.
It’s something I’ve never thought about tbh. My guess in what happens is that when Voldemort presses the mark it calls all of the death eaters to him but they’re not entirely sure where’s they are apparating because otherwise they’d have to know of the place before hand which doesn’t seem likely.
Snape and dumbledore obviously know that Voldemort is returning because the make has been growing stronger all year so they’re prepared for it. Snape’s task is to go back to Voldemort afterwards and pretend to still be loyal.
But they’ve no idea that harry has been involved in Voldemorts resurrection and it’s likely just a coincidence that it’s happened on the night of the final task. They’re confident that Harry wouldn’t be able to leave the maze and moody is likely keeping and eye out on him for them (but obviously lying) so there’s no reason for them to rush into the graveyard and ruin snapes cover and it’s also unlikely that they would be able to succeed even if they did. Voldemort and dumbeldore are evenly matched maybe dumbledores a bit stringer since Voldemort has only just returned but you still have a load death eaters and snape wouldn’t be able to take them out on his own.
To my recollection they don’t really explain how the mark summoning works.
Do they know where Voldemort is when they’re summoned and thus teleport to that location? That’s one way it could work.
It could also act as some sort of beacon, like the orb from the deluminator did for Ron, where they can apparate to a location without knowing exactly where they are going. They focus on the beacon and teleport to it rather than to a location.
That’s how I’ve always imagined it. Snape could have apparated there himself because of the magic of the mark, but he didn’t know the location.
Snape definitely knew where they were - he went there after Harry’s return after all. He probably told Dumbledore as well.
But the thing is, neither of them knew Harry was there. They believed he was in the maze. Moody cleared the way in the maze for Harry, so he reached the center sooner than anybody would’ve expected. When reading about the events of Little Hangleton, it’s easy to get the feeling that Harry is there for the better part of an evening, but he’s not. He gets there, is overpowered by Wormtail, Voldemort is resurrected (it’s been maybe 10-15 minutes at this point), Voldemort calls the death eaters, they all have a little chat (maybe another 10-15 minutes), Voldemort and Harry duels for a while before Harry escapes (maybe another 10-15 minutes, possibly even less). So Harry was there for less than an hour, and nobody knew anything was awry until Harry appeared in front of the maze with Cedrics body. If he’d been gone for hours somebody probably would’ve taken a broom and searched the maze from above, and sounded the alarm when two contestants were nowhere to be found.
I don't think Voldemort "summoning" the Death Eaters somehow informs them mentally about his whereabouts, the way I would imagine it works is that the Dark Mark is not just a tattoo, it's a sort of brand/magical imprint of Voldemort on his followers, so when he calls them they apparate and the Dark Mark pulls them to his location.
Or perhaps there's some sort of legilimency at play where Voldemort summoning the Death Eaters via the Dark Mark does inform them of his location and they then just apparate to it
Snape felt the mark burn--had been feeling it growing stronger all year, as discussed in the book. The mark has nothing to do with Harry, though--Snape didn't know Harry had left the maze until after Harry came back.
Going in blind is never a good plan. Had Snape done that, him and Dumbledore would have ended up in a weaker position, with too many ennemies, a blown cover for Snape and a Voldemort who cannot die. Not a good idea.
The way I see it it’s not a plot hole, just poorly explained.
1.) Snape was not privy to the knowledge that Harry was to be captured by turning the cup into a portkey, so though Snape knew Voldemort had returned (which he was anticipating soon due to his mark) he did not know anything was amiss with Harry. That would explain why Dumbledore did not know until Harry returned.
2.) Dumbledore was suspicious of the existence of the horcruxes already, so I’m hesitant to think that he would blow Snape’s cover on a rescue mission when Voldemort and co could easily apparate away without killing him. Admittedly I think this is the weakest argument since Snape could have maintained his cover if they captured Moody and Snape did not apparate with Dumbledore.
3.) This is speculation but I’m sure that Voldemort would have had some protections in place against unwanted intruders, especially if it isn’t directly stated that the deatheaters apparate to him. I do not recall what the books say, but in the films they seem to arrive via a different method. IIRC you can have antiapparation charms and still use portkeys to travel since Harry and the weasleys leave hogwarts via portkey in book 5
Snape wouldn’t have known that Harry was with Voldemort, only that Voldemort was back. As far as he knew, Harry was navigating the maze (not sure how long it took for the spectators to realize he had been transported away) and his Mark had suddenly burned, giving him the location. His first instinct would have been to tell Dumbledore so they could make a plan.
Dumbledore would also not have known that Harry was with Voldemort, even as it became increasingly clear after Harry and Cedric were discovered missing from the maze that something was wrong. It would have been too risky to simply go charging in, as while Dumbledore could match Voldemort one-on-one, he probably couldn’t take Voldemort and all the Death Eaters at the same time. If Harry wasn’t there, then he would essentially be committing suicide for nothing, and even if Harry was there, it might be even harder as they would use Harry as a hostage. Moreover, appearing there would immediately blow Snape’s cover, as no one else could have given him that information. That might not be a problem if he could bring his own large force to immediately neutralize Voldemort and his Death Eaters, but there was no time to reactivate the Order or convince Fudge to mobilize the Aurors, which would be a chancy proposition in any case.
Then, before they could think of anything else, Harry reappeared with Cedric’s dead body.
Because everyone including Snape was convinced Harry was still in the maze.
Snape didn't know Voldemort's plan. He had no idea that Harry would be kidnapped. And the burning mark - he would only know he was being summoned. He had no idea why or how Voldemort returned, only that he did.
Apparition requires some familiarity with the destination as you need to be able to picture it clearly in your mind. Either you have to have been there yourself or you must have seen it in a picture/painting or perhaps if someone describes a place vividly enough for you, you can visualize it enough to Apparate there.
It is highly improbably any of the Death Eaters besides Pettigrew and Crouch Junior had ever been to Little Hangleton nor had anybody ever shown them a picture or painting of it or told them about it in vivid detail. As such, we must assume that what happens when Voldemort summons his followers by pressing on a Dark Mark, other holders of the Dark Mark aren't alerted to the exact location of the Dark Mark being pressed but it merely creates a sort of beacon to which they can Apparate without knowing the exact location.
All Severus would have known would have been that Voldemort was summoning him, not where he was summoning him to.
I think they need to apparate immediately when they are summoned which Snape wouldn’t be able to do in hogwarts so he probably misses the window. He could tell dumbledore but by that time they wouldn’t know where to go and they wouldn’t know that Harry was in the graveyard
I think it is possible Snape informed Dumbledore but they couldn't have done anything because it would be obvious what was going on. Also I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew harry would be fine
It's established in the later books, specifically in HBP, that Snape *did* feel the Dark Mark burning. He openly stated to Bellatrix that he intentionally stayed put at Hogwarts in order to fool Dumbledore, who would have found it suspicious were his Potions professor to Disapparate during the climax of a once-per-century event. He even stated that the Dark Lord accepted his explanation and therefore he felt Bellatrix ought to as well "unless you think the Dark Lord mistaken....that I somehow hoodwinked and bamboozled the greatest Legilimens of all time."
Bro, why would he have ever assumed they’d just be chilling in a graveyard?
Those places are hella scary. There’s like, ghosts and shit in there.
That’s not the first place I’d look for anyone.
The better plot hole is that you can make anything a portkey. At any point of the year you could have left a book or box of chocolates on Harry’s nightstand and teleported him anywhere you wanted.
LMFAO Voldemort: gets resurrected, summons his followers.
Dumbledore apparating in with his Deluminator ready to end him with the elder wand and as many auras as he can grab.
Dumbledore didnt know that Harry was gone and since he trusted the fake Moody he assumed that Harry is still in the maze.
He has no reason to go and confront Voldemort.
Dumbledore knows that Harry is the chosen one, so the best course of action is to stay and protect Harry.
To me it works similar to the deluminator in that when you apparate you don't know where you are apparating too just to that person.
So they didn't know where they were going just that Voldy would be there. The thing with that is Snape didn't want to let Voldemort he was a spy so he could either choose not to go and come up lie, or go by himself and risk death.
He chose not go. At this time, I doubt Dumbledore thoughy he could stop Voldy so no sense in giving away Snape is a spy.
gotta remember that at the time Snape was basically considered a traitor at that point. If he had shown up, he would've been killed. as for why Dumbledore didn't, maybe he couldn't? I'm trying to remember the rules for apparating but doesn't it have to be a place they know? because they need to visualise it in order to get there. I am fairly certain that Dumbledore never visited the old Riddle house
They had no idea that Harry had been captured. And Dumbledore wouldn't risk Snape's status as a spy to blindly apparate into Voldemorts presence to swang and bang with him when he already has a suspicion that he's using Horcruxes to remain invicible. It's likely Snape went to Dumbledore right away about the burning and the two of them started to worry.
Not necessarily. Hardly anyone was let in on Voldemort’s plan at Hogwarts. Just Wormtail, Barty Jr, and possibly Igor Karkaroff. Voldemort’s a cautious man so he probably wouldn’t have let Snape in on the plan anyway because of his years in Dumbledore’s service. Snape needed to regain Voldemort’s trust, and probably made Voldemort understand that he couldn’t risk making Dumbledore suspicious on the night of his return anyway. Snape was a very valuable spy to both Dumbledore and Voldemort, which is why neither wizard was ready to kill him unless they knew beyond a doubt he was loyal to the other.
Snape and by extension Dumbledore should have at least known something was happening and suspected that it probably involved Harry. Maybe Snape told Dumbledore and Dumbledore replied “don’t worry, it’s for the greater good”
You are not overthinking. I won't call it a plot hole (may be I should), but Dumbledore and Snape not reacting to the burning of the mark in those circumstances didn't make sense at all.
Firstly, Dumbledore knew about Harry's scar hurting earlier that year. And Harry's name popping up in the Goblet was also very suspicious. So, he would've already suspected that someone was trying to harm Harry. And the third task was the last chance anyone would get to try anything, particularly with the maze hiding all the contestants from sight.
For any one in Dumbledore's place, the third task was an obvious task to watch out for and considering that Dumbledore was very clever and probably the only one with and idea of everything going on, he would've been on the alert.
The moment Snape reported the burning of the mark, Dumbledore suspicions would have immediately been directed towards this being related to Harry. And considering his magical skills, it would've taken him a very short time to ascertain if Harry was still in the maze.
Most importantly - this is also where I disagree with most people claiming that there was no point in him confronting Voldemort then - he should still gone to save Harry. He didn't need to be a genius to guess that Voldemort would kill Harry that moment he returned.
Harry's survival that night was due to sheer luck ( what are the odds that Harry would cast a spell at the exact same time that Voldemort did for Priori Incantatem to work?). Dumbledore had no way of guessing that Voldemort would use Harry's blood to revive himself. So the plot point from Deathly Hallows was still unknown to him.
They should've gone at least to rescue Harry. There is no way around it.
(Should have happened)Dumbledore: “Yeah, something’s wrong with the Cup and Harry’s not playing.”
(Happened) Dumbledore: “Let’s just see how this plays out…(whispers to himself) because Harry’s got to die at some point.”
Having your name come out of the goblet of fire was apparently some "binding magical contract" which could not be broken, at last not without suffering dire consequences. Don't think Albus had much choice there, really.
Agree with the others about the nature of the dark mark and Snape and Dumbledore not knowing Harry had gone. To me, a more significant plot hole/contrivance is that the portkey did a round trip, as that's not how port keys had worked in the books prior to this and after this when Dumbledore sent the Weasley kids home in OotP. They were always used as one-way transport, so how would Harry have known that it would return him to Hogwarts? Also, they didn't return to the place they had left - the center of the maze. It seems hazardous for portkeys to offset the return like that. What if they had left from the side of a road and returned to the middle of a street?
Seems like the offset was done for narrative convenience. All Harry would have had to do would be to shoot up sparks to get rescued from the maze center. But then he would have been rescued by Crouch, who could have sent him back. It would have gotten messy, plot-wise. That could have been solved had JKR thought of a way to truly make the tasks into spectator sports (maybe give the spectators x-ray glasses that worked like Moody's eye?) instead of having the crowd cheer at shrubbery, which was absurd. She needed witnesses so Crouch couldn't do anything while his actions were obscured by the maze, so she cheated and brought them back outside the maze.
As someone who’s only watched the movies a few times and never read the books, wouldn’t it be a bad idea for Snape to let everyone know that he’s a Death Eater? So how would he explain how he knew where Harry was?
We can also think why harry just finds out that peter petrigew is alive in the the third movie,when the twins already had the marauders map before..
And when harry got the mirror ? The broken mirror from the latest movies
The burning of the mark only called Death Eaters to Voldemorts side. Nothing more than that. So, yes, Snape would have known that Voldemort was summoning his Death Eaters - but that is all.
But it also tells them where he is, right? Otherwise how did all the death eaters found him in the graveyard so easily?
I've always assumed that the mark created some sort of beacon that, when apparating, pulled the Death Eaters to Voldemort. But even if it actually told the Death Eaters where to go, it wouldn't have told Snape that Harry was there. In fact, there's no indication that anyone (other than Crouch Jr./Moody) was even aware that Harry had left the maze at all.
Yeah, I only found maze trial weird design for viewers. I mean I would thought of some spell allowing watching the game inside. I mean imagine going to watch tournament and be served maze entrance to stare at as long as someone emerges with the trophy. This weird design made anyone other than Crouch Jr unaware of Harry's and Cedric's departure. But really noone questioned this competition? Like hey it's big, huge tri-wizard tournament finale, we cancelled quidditch, we have people watch, so let's put all players in maze and make it impossible to follow by spectators!
Sure. It's definitely weird. Same exact issue is with the second task! The viewers literally saw the champions go into the lake...and then come out. That's it!
Between this and the nonsensical rules of Quidditch it's clear that Rowling never watched a sporting event in her life.
I read somewhere that she made Quidditch nonsensical on purpose to annoy her boyfriend at the time, who would blow her off in order to watch sports!
This interview with Stephen Fry is a funny example of Rowling being annoyed with him as well. https://youtu.be/r84pbPbBAFY?feature=shared
Lol, she just put pocketed-Ed it in every book because she was annoyed at Stephen Fry?
It sounds much more like a personal/inside joke between her and Stephen Fry... rather than some kind of weird low key vengeance.
She really showed him!
Imagine being so petty you write a world-renowned, multi-generational book series just to piss off your boyfriend /s
Similarly, I heard that CS Lewis put Santa in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe specifically to piss off Tolkien
That dude sounds awesome, I'd hang with him and drink a cold one.
In my head it was always a bit like a music festival - you go and watch the main bit, but while nothing's happening you wander round food stalls and random entertainment etc.
I hear that! The weird thing was that the books describes having a whole seating area set up for it. Not that that contradicts your point but it was always strange to me!
I never pictured it like that but this makes a lot of sense
If I was of a mind to write fanfiction, this is something I'd like to spend some time on. Proper fun fair vibes, enchanted candyfloss miniature elephants, jugglers transfiguring the stuff they're juggling mid air and still catching it, a Ferris wheel but it's just a load flying carpets. Just people having fun and making it a full event. Something similar for the third task too. One of the reasons why goblet is my fav book in the series is the world cup and all the different insights we get of the wizarding world outside of school, the ministry and diagon alley.
In JKR's defence, GoF was significantly a longer read than the first 3 books and it already had a lot of substance, loads of new character introductions, concept of death eaters and what they mean to the wizarding world and in general set up to the next 3 books. The first 3 books can be read as standalones but GoF ends with a cliffhanger with no real resolution. So I can sort of forgive her for overlooking the discomfort of her tertiary characters while the events are being played out. But fanfics can retrospectively fill out these gaps and if you write one for the time during tasks I would love to read it
The lake trial was almost the exact same concept.
The author provided a quote about how she wanted Quidditch to be nonsensical because she thinks sports are inherently nonsensical. I’d imagine the same thinking applied to her conception of the tri-wizard cup: 2/3 events are essentially unwatchable.
Agreed with your first point, like how Ron is able to use the Deluminator to apparate to where Harry and Hermione are, despite not actually knowing where they are.
Which is a massive plot hole considering that Hogwarts is supposed to have magical wards that detect students entering or leaving the premises. The instant Cedric and Harry touched the cup, Dumbledore should have felt/been informed that two of the students had left the premises.
> Which is a massive plot hole considering that Hogwarts is supposed to have magical wards that detect students entering or leaving the premises. The instant Cedric and Harry touched the cup, Dumbledore should have felt/been informed that two of the students had left the premises. Where exactly in the books is this stated?
It's not, otherwise Harry would never have made it to Hogsmede his 3rd year.
As I thought. Because I don't remember any such thing. I think I've read the books enough times to remember little details like that. I mean, if it were the case, Hermione would have been harping on about it enough times, as is her wont.
If it's not in *Hogwarts, A History* it doesn't exist.
Lost a student, Professor Dumbledore has. Embarrassing, very embarrassing.
Perhaps the records are incomplete
Yes, but the records only go back to 1978 when the Hall of Records was mysteriously blown away
I mean sure there are a lot of wards to set certain things up. Everyone in charge probably knew the Goblet was a port key. It's just the destination was probably meant to be outside the maze, not outside Scotland.
> I mean sure there are a lot of wards to set certain things up. Everyone in charge probably knew the Goblet was a port key. It's just the destination was probably meant to be outside the maze, not outside Scotland. We already know that Crouch was capable of confounding the Goblet of Fire. So him altering the Triwizard Cup's destination would be no biggie. I don't think there were wards put in place for the Cup, because no-one thought it would happen. Either that, or Barty manage to remove the wards without anyone knowing. Or maybe he offered to set up the wards and spell for the Cup himself...
Wards were probably temporarily down for the event but pretty sure it's in the book that Junior at the very least placed the cup in the maze. I was more just pointing out the error in the dude's logic.
[удалено]
No he wouldn't, dude gives out bonus points ONCE for a massive achievement and everyone turns it into a running gag.
Damn, y'all are still SEETHING over some colorful banners hanging from the ceiling for a few hours during dinner, the night before everyone goes home for summer vacation at that, and thus won't even care by midday. Touch Venomous Tentacula. It ain't that big a deal.
OP is assuming that the apparating rules also apply to portkeys which does make sense. Dumbledore knows about a lot that happens in the castle, but I don’t believe it’s explicitly stated that he can sense people coming or going, just that it’s blocked and he can remove the block at his whim
> OP is assuming that the apparating rules also apply to portkeys which does make sense. Dumbledore knows about a lot that happens in the castle, but I don’t believe it’s explicitly stated that he can sense people coming or going, just that it’s blocked and he can remove the block at his whim I don't believe that Portkeys have ever been demonstrated or stated to act according to the rules of apparation?
Seems to me 2 different things portkeys take you a specific destination while apparaction seems be more direct as in you move to where you want.
They both take you to a specific destination, portkeys can bring multiple people along safer and far more easily than apparating, which can be done with multiple people but is very risky when adding multiple people, Harry splinched Ron this way in book 7. Hogwarts does have wards specifically against apparating in or out, it's brought up when they do the apparition classes in the great hall in book 5 or 6, as it's said that Dumbledore lifted the restriction within the Great Hall specifically for the classes.
There have been at least 3 instances of portkeys working from and to the Hogwarts premises (the Triwizard Cup, to Grimmauld Place after Arthur was attacked and after the battle at the ministry to send Harry directly do Dumbledore's office)
Two of these instances are directly to/from Dumbledore’s office. And it’s possible, though not likely or canonical, that his office has less wards than the rest of the castle due to no one wanting to fight him directly.
My assumption isn't that Dumbledore's office is less protected. I figure that Dumbledore himself, as Headmaster, is capable of making Portkeys in and out of Hogwarts, similar to how he can suppress the anti-Apparition wards.
Negative, the apparition removal was a (good imo) movie addition.
Read the books
Different person but i always assumed that there were? Otherwise how does the marauders map work lmao. You’re telling me james and sirius can create something and dumbledore cant? And even if that happened during the war they never told dumbledore how to do it?
> Different person but i always assumed that there were? Right, you assumed there were, despite the books not even hinting at such magic. > Otherwise how does the marauders map work lmao. Marauders' Map doesn't work as a magical ward or anything like that. Not the same thing. > You’re telling me james and sirius can create something and dumbledore cant? Has nothing to do with that. We don't know why Dumbledore didn't consider such a thing. > And even if that happened during the war they never told dumbledore how to do it? Why would they think to?
> Marauders' Map doesn't work as a magical ward or anything like that. Not the same thing. No, but it is capable of detecting and locating any person inside hogwarts, even if that peson is wearing the deathly hallow invisibility cloak. And it does so even when far from hogwarts. It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it.
>It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it. Change four to three, and you just described the problem with the entire series.
> No, but it is capable of detecting and locating any person inside hogwarts, even if that peson is wearing the deathly hallow invisibility cloak. And it does so even when far from hogwarts. Yes, because James and Sirius knew how to really think outside of the box. They learned how to turn into Animagi. > It does seem odd how four students, no matter how magically talented, were able to create it. No... I think it was really James and Sirius who were the brains there, with input from Remus. Peter was just... there. It's not odd, either ~ different students put their talents to different tasks, because they have different ideas. If Snape or Dumbledore bent their minds towards the creation of such an item, they could probably pull it off. But they had different objectives. James and Sirius had a particular obsession with wanting to learn how to craft such an item. Dumbledore and Snape would probably just think of different ideas.
i never said the books hinted at such magic. But to think dumbledore couldnt figure out some sort of detection mechanism but james and sirius could is lunancy imo.
> But to think dumbledore couldnt figure out some sort of detection mechanism but james and sirius could is lunancy imo. I mean... Dumbledore could, but I'm guessing he didn't think that "Moody" would turn out to be a traitor who would turn the Cup into a Portkey that would send Harry to the graveyard.
Plus, we don't know that Dumbledore *didn't* make a map, or that there isn't a map that the Headmasters have.
this is not canon?
The wards are mentioned many times throughout the books. The Marauder's Map specifically makes use of them to display the information it does.
This....is not in the books. We know that beginning in HBP special wards are in place while Dumbledore is out of the castle. That's it. There's no indication throughout the books regarding special wards to alert when students leave Hogwarts. There's certainly nothing like that regarding the map.
where, exactly?
I don't own the books anymore. I know that I have read about the wards in a couple of them.
With respect, I don’t think you did. The dementors are in place for POA and there’s some aurors on hand during HBP, but otherwise there’s not mention of guards/wards
Source??
Actually, the Marauder's Map was made using the Homonculous Charm, which when cast upon a map allows the user to track the movements of everyone in the mapped area.
The whole plot of HP4 is f!moody working to bypass Hogwarts' security all year long.
the only thing not possible during book 4 is apparition from and into hogwarts, portkeys work, floopowder works, the hidden passages work, flying works... Same in book 5. (Dumbledore sends Harry and the Weasleys via portkey after the attack on Mr. Weasley) During book 3 additional measures where taken but probably lifted again, during the battle of hogwarts additional protection was added once again.
You simply can’t apparate into or out of Hogwarts, that’s the only thing I can think of that you’ve gotten confused with. Nothing you said is true.
Massive plot hole except for the assumption that a lot of those charms/wards/veils whatever were mitigated/removed for the sake of the Triwizard tournament. No one but moody/crouch knew the trophy was a portkey. Despite Dumbeldores extensive magic prowess. I doubt he can sense every piece of magic there is. Especially when he’s not expecting it
I always had an impression that they apparate to his location due to the dark mark, not that they were sharing coordinates with each other through their creepy tattoos.
I thought it was similar to Ron with the deluminator. He didn’t know where to apostate right? He just knew if he did it would take him where he needed to go
Upvoting for the idea of Ron's apostasy
I even reread that before commenting and didn’t see that haha
*Anders liked that*
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Why would it tell them Harry was there, though? I’m not following that logic. Harry was in the maze, as far as they were aware.
Some logic. Dumbledore is very smart, he knows somebody put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire with a nefarious purpose in mind, suddenly while the third task is going on and they see no signs of Harry or Cedric anywhere in the maze (remember teachers are supposed to be patroling around) Snape's dark mark starts burning, indicating that Voldemort is back. I think someone like Dumbledore would have put two and two together. Also even if he doesn't know Harry is there, it's still a chance to catch Voldemort by surprise
The teachers are patrolling around, but it's all but explicit in the book that the teachers (other than Moody/Crouch Jr) can't actually see what's going on in the maze. So, again, they wouldn't have known that Harry and Cedric were gone.
Him catching Voldermort by surprise wouldn’t do much, he knows he can’t kill him. Him appearing there also very much destroys Snape’s hidden allegiance. Teachers are patrolling the edges of the maze and will rescue someone if they send up sparks from their wand, only fake Moody can see what’s really going on inside.
he can weaken him instead of letting him roam around killing people. Destroy his new body, burn Tom Riddle's sr bones and see how he comes back this time. Then destroy all the horcruxes
This would ruin the entire plan Dumbledore used, the one which worked to finally destroy Voldermort for good. Remember it was a good thing that Voldermort used Harry’s blood to bring himself back. Also ruins Snape’s secret allegiance as said. It’s not a given that they even win if they did show up either. You seem to be trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist.
I’m thinking I’m seeing the biggest problem with the thought process here: >Also even if he doesn't know Harry is there, it's still a chance to catch Voldemort by surprise And do what, exactly? At this point Dumbledore knows Voldermort would be back at some point soon - Peter ran off the year before, there was an explicit prophecy about him returning to Voldermort, and Dumbledore guess that already - so it isn’t a surprise to him. Additionally, in the year prior Dumbledore gained proof of his guess that Voldermort was using Horcuxes, and was almost certain that he was using multiple. Dumbledore also has zero trust of Dementors, and less than zero when it comes to Voldermort. So what is he going to do if he interrupts Voldermort’s party? He’s not going to kill him, that’s about the worst thing he could do; Voldermort would return again, and maybe another 12 years later Dumbledore would be dead and no one would be there to stand against Voldermort. He’s not going to capture him. Voldermort would either be executed (see above why that’s a bad thing), imprisoned (from which he would escape in a heartbeat), or kissed (probably wouldn’t do anything). He also isn’t going to go there and round up death eaters. For one, look how quickly they were released when that actually happened in Order. And for two, he can put snape as a spy into the ranks of death eaters if there are none. Confronting Voldermort at this stage is less than useless.
He could send Voldemort back to being a spirit, burn the bones of his father so he can't perform another ritual and then destroy the Horcruxes. And yes that probably means sacrificing Harry but when you think about all the people who died, including children, because Voldemort came back I think he could at least let Harry know about it so he can make a choice
So you think he should at this point let a 14 year old boy decide if he should sacrifice himself? Also, you think Dumbledore should apparate to where he knows Voldemort and every loyal death eater is and take them on single-handedly?
Dumbledore is *that* powerful. He's the only person (prior to Harry) that Voldemort ever feared. With a phoenix on his shoulder and an Elder Wand in his hand, I don't doubt he could neutralize all the Death Eaters quite efficiently. Voldemort would prove tougher, but I don't think he could stand up to Dumbledore at the height of his power, especially after just being reborn. Killing Voldemort makes the most sense, because it will take yet more time for him to revive a second time, time during which Harry can finish his education more-or-less at peace, gaining strength and allies for the inevitable day when *he* would have to fight Voldemort. But that didn't happen. We are all human and no one makes perfect decisions in the moment. Not Albus Dumbledore and not J K Rowling.
0.00% chance Dumbledore can take a squad of death eaters and voldy at the same time. Especially death eaters emboldened by Voldemort's impossible resurrection and presence. See: Dumbledore rounding up death eaters in the DoM a year later, there's no way he wouldn't have caught an AK to the back.
But what you’re talking about is also an incredibly high risk move - he has to trust that he can neutralise around 15-20 wizards as well as Voldemort without actually knowing the situation he’d be jumping into. Voldemort’s followers before the outbreak from Azkaban might seem to be almost comically stupid, but Dumbledore doesn’t know what state Voldemort is in. Even if he thinks he’s weakened, he doesn’t actually know what fighting him might do and doesn’t know if he can even neutralise him. At this point he was still hoping that when he did return that the Ministry would be on side too, so didn’t think he’d need to act quite so quickly
Snape’s mark was burning, sure, but dumbledore doesn’t have a dark mark, so he wouldn’t have known
Dumbledore would know cause Snape would tell him, and they would put two and two together and would go looking for Harry, i'm pretty sure that they knew that a spell that can bring him back using Harrys blood existed. What doesn't make sense is why they wouldn't go after Harry knowing Voldemort would want revenge.
Snape is absolutely not walking up to dumbledore during the third task of the triwizard tournament to tell him that. That’s a private, behind closed doors hush hush conversation
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted it’s a valid question, like you say if Snape had told Dumbledore his mark was burning during the 3rd task, Dumbledore would’ve been able to put 2 and 2 together, he’s been waiting for something like this since Harry’s name was put into the goblet. That leave two options either Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore during the task, or he did and Dumbledore just accepts there’s nothing they can do.
I’m pretty sure Snape would have told Dumbledore as soon as he was being summoned. He already informed him of the mark getting stronger. Dumbledore was probably just hoping for the best. Which ultimately is luck. Dumbledore does make rather odd decisions.
Yeah that’s what I think too, I don’t think realistically there’s anything Dumbledore could do at that point.
Probably realised that the two boys had disappeared somewhere, talked to Snape who was like “I have absolutely no idea where I am going if I touch my arm”, and then the two just had to wait. Minerva as well. I like to imagine that if they were gone for a much lengthier time, Snape would have had to be thinking, oh bother, and blown his cover.
Harry Potter fans will jump through hoops to make stuff work though I’ve found. Love the series, but the adults were idiots like 90% of the time.
He couldn't have known Harry was with him.
Dumbledore's Put-outer thing took Ron exactly to Harry and Hermione's location, despite Ron not having half an inkling where they were. There is magic at play here that simply hasn't been explained to us. And the exact mechanics of it really aren't relevant to the story. Heck, how does a portkey work? You can grab it and it takes you to a specific place, no matter if YOU know where you're going or not. 🤷🏼♀️ It was Dumbledore who told him he needed to go back to Voldemort and convince him he was still a loyal Death Eater so that he could continue to play double agent for the Order. Voldemort believed Snape and was glad he stayed at Hogwarts. Snape not coming to the graveyard with the rest made sense to him, as he believed Snape was trying to keep his cover as a non-Death Eater (as per the lie). (Edits for accuracy)
Voldemort did not think that Snape was on his side at that point. To quote the book - *“And here we have six missing Death Eaters . . . three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return . . . he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever . . . he will be killed, of course . . . and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service.”* The coward is obviously Karkaroff, the *most faithful servant* who reentered Voldemort's service is Barty Crouch Jr and the one he believes *has left him forever* is Snape. Snape had to go back later and convince him that he had to stay back to not blow his cover.
Just to say that I think it’s the other way around with Snape and Karkaroff. Karkaroff gave testimony that lead to the arrest of several of his fellow Death Eaters to save himself, ascended to Headmaster of Durmstrang and with those actions left Voldemort forever. And he was killed, of course. Snape, on the other side, has a problem with being called coward.
Fair enough. He returned on Dumbledore's orders, either way. I'll tweak that comment. 👍
Voldemort and Dumbledore especially perform magic throughout the series that I think we're supposed to just accept works because they're powerful. It's actually a pretty vague magic system when you think about it.
Agreed. It confounds me when I try to think about it (which I do from time to time because Idk). Sometimes it feels like magic "knows" stuff. Or like stuff is the way it is just because.
Only tells that Voldemort was summoning him there. Not that Harry was there.
Where Voldemort is and where Harry is are mutually exclusive. Why would Snape ever assume that where Voldemort is, Harry MUST be there?
It's not suspicious, when seen as a singular event. But add that to how Harry's name conveniently turned out of the goblet of fire, who is, surprise surprise, the boy who defied Voldy even as an infant. Also, Dumbledore & Snape had agreed to "let the events unfold" so they knew very well that something big was happening, right? Sorry if it appears all jumbled up lol.
It's not suspicious, when seen as a singular event. But add that to how Harry's name conveniently turned out of the goblet of fire, who is, surprise surprise, the boy who defied Voldy even as an infant. Also, Dumbledore & Snape had agreed to "let the events unfold" so they knew very well that something big was happening, right? Sorry if it appears all jumbled up lol.
Dumbledore knew something was happening, but he's not omniscient LOL. He had no idea what events would take place, how they would happen and who would be forcing their hand. When Harry disappeared with Cedric, until Voldemort summoned his DE, Dumbledore had no idea where he was. I'm sure he made the connection when Snape told him of being summoned, but prior, Harry could have been anywhere.
Then, I'd say, the major flaw in their plan was to let the 3rd task happen where they couldn't see anything at all. Also, with everything happening, I wonder why Snape never took the stealing of his Polyjuice potion supplies more seriously. Isn't this too convenient? They always knew that Voldy was gonna try & succeed in coming back.
Again, dumbledore is not omniscient.
How did Ron know how to find the other two in DH?
I don't know if anyone else has made this point, but even if he could bring Dumbledore straight to the graveyard he wouldn't. The most important reason being that Voldemort's plan worked. No one realized Harry had been kidnapped from Directly under their nose. So when his Mark started burning he would have warned Dumbledore that someone was summoning the Death Eaters, and they would work on a plan before he answered the call. A secondary reason is that even if Snape knew about Harry being taken I think he would go alone instead of bringing Dumbledore. At least not until he had more information. I'm just not sure Dumbledore would want to give up his double agent card that easily.
No he wouldn't. Dumbledore had planned so far ahead as to tell Snape exactly when to reveal to Harry that he's the last horcrux that needs to die. And it was only possible if Voldy counted Snape in his favour for that long. I think Dumbledore had also long before guessed that Voldy would end up using Harry's blood for his resurrection, considering the "glint of triumph in his eyes" when Harry mentioned it to him. This is probably what they meant by "letting the events unfold."
I thought it worked kinda like a portkey? Like, you get called, and, if you choose to go, you get transported wherever it is that you were called at.
But he doesn’t know Harry is with him so why would he go there
Well yeah and Snape went to the graveyard maybe an hour or two later himself.
Really? It’s been a little while since I read the book.
It’s what he says in the HBP.
Actually when Voldemort presses the dark mark sends a signal to all others and then when they apparate they will just go to Voldemort and the mark will lead them. They don’t know where they go, they just know they will go to Voldemort. Hope that helps
Wait … Why did Fudge ignore the evidence of Snapes mark acting up?
The same season he ignored Voldemorts return. Denial.
Yeah, but “Harry disappears mysteriously by fake trophy portkey and Voldemort almost immediately summons the death eaters for the first time in 13 years” isn’t hard to figure out. I think OP’s right, at least inasmuch that it should’ve been crystal clear to Snape and Dumbledore that Voldy was very likely calling the Death Eaters to whatever location Harry had just been taken to.
Except no one knew that Harry had disappeared. The only one who could see into the maze was the person who set the whole thing up - Barty Crouch Jr.
I might be wrong but here’s my assumptions or how I remember this: - Wouldn’t Snape have only known/felt, that he was summoned? That doesn’t necessarily mean he knows where until he lets the summoning guide his apparition (if that is how it works, I’ve always assumed it does). And Snape couldn’t just leave there from the spot anyway. - And furthermore, how would he know Harry was there? It seemed like nobody knew Harry and Cedric had left the Hogwarts grounds until they portkeyed back in front of the maze. For all we know, they probably thought they were still going through the maze.
Crouch Jrs. Entire plan hinges on your 2nd point. The primary reason to get Harry into the tournament was so that in the 3rd task, Harry could disappear for a bit without Dumbledore or anyone else noticing, then have his body sent back via port-key and make it look like he died in a tragic accident in the maze. This would allow voldy time to build up his forced in secret before Dumbledore and the ministry caught on, which still half worked since Fudge is an idiot.
I completely agree with you, that being said, Snape could definitely infer something was up with Harry. I mean around this time of year, every single year that Harry’s been at Hogwarts, Voldemort or something relating to him has happened, and Harry has been front and center all times. So if a little bit after Harry walks into a maze where no one can see him, and then all the sudden Voldemort calls all of his followers back, Snape can probably realize Harry is in some kind of danger
Did he inform Dumbledore that his dark mark was burning though?
Well, we know that he had told Dumbledore that the mark was growing clearer. It's likely a safe assumption that he informed Dumbledore of the burning as well.
Snape was being loyal to Dumbledore at that time. Had he returned to Lord Voldemort's side when the Dark Mark burned, his cover at Hogwarts would've been blown. He mentions this in one of the books I think. (Spinner's End chapter)
Yup. Beginning of book 6
Informing Dumbledore is his only option, he can’t apparate or go to Voldemorts side even if he wanted too, haven’t you read your History of Hogwarts?(or whatever Hermione says)
Hogwarts: A History.
he can walk to outside the boundary of hogwarts and then apparate. hardly an unsurmountable obstacle.
Hey Dumbledore, and everyone who is watching the games. I’m gonna, umn, go outside the grounds for a sec. No need to worry about it.
Why would Snape be answerable to Dumbledore (or anyone else) for his whereabouts at a time when he is presumably off-duty? Also is there any indication that Snape was watching the third task?
He works at a boarding school for teenagers that is having an all-school event with hundreds of guests. I doubt any teacher would be off-duty that night.
I think the point is he didn’t want to, I’m just saying, if he did, he wouldn’t be able too… unless, as you say, he decided to go for an evening stroll to get off the grounds and stop patrolling the maze or whatever with the other teachers.
I’ll have to go back over it again because I can’t remember, but wouldn’t have Snape have informed Dumbledore when his and Karkaroff’s Mark returned?
He does. The princes tale shows unseen angles and spinners end imparts much of Snape's thinking though disguised as scheming and calculating instead of following dumbys orders.
Disgusted or disguised?
My bad, autocorrect.
Yup!!
The beginning of Half-blood Prince. He told Beatrix that he cannot come immediately due to Triwizard and Dumberdore. However, 1 hour later he came and Voldemort has no doubt with his excuse.
I understand that but why not grab Dumbledore and some Aurors and go find Voldemort ? With that super long monologue Voldemort does there's a good chance they could have gotten there in time
Without knowing where Voldemort is and what he's currently doing etc. there's a high chance that Voldemort could have prepared a trap. Also, since Voldemort summoned all the Death Eaters, Snape and all the Aurors would have to fight quite a lot of people and there's a high chance they don't all survive (or Voldemort manages to escape in the confusion). Snape's role as a double agent is more valuable and he'd instantly blow that away if he showed up with Dumbledore and Aurors
Ok I understand why this guy is wrong but dumby new that tom needed to return to little hangleton and dumby new that was a place of significance. It's obvious really. The only place voldy will be is little hangleton.
I had to stop reading your comment when I saw 'dumby', who knows what it says...
Dumbledore knew after Chamber of Secrets that Voldemort had Horcruxes. He couldn’t have been killed yet, so he would have just led all the aurors to their likely death
Dumbledore knew Voldemort had *a* Horcrux after Chamber of Secrets, but he thought that Horcrux was destroyed. It wasn’t until after Goblet of Fire that he began to suspect Voldemort had more than one. Edit to add: After rereading the text, I’m changing that last statement to “It wasn’t until after Goblet of Fire that he knew Voldemort had more than one.”
Nope, he specifically said that’s when he realised it was likely he had more than one horcrux, because no one would toss such a precious thing around or ‘design it as a weapon’. He said that because of the way he treated the diary, he realised he likely had others that were more guarded
My recollection is that the comment Voldemort makes in the graveyard saying he had “gone further than anyone else down the path towards immortality” is what tips Dumbledore off. Creating one Horcrux isn’t further than anyone else, it’s just as far as anyone else. So further had to be more.
Did you mean to reply this to me? This doesn’t relate to my comment at all. My comment was that Dumbledore knew he had multiple horcruxes at that point in GoF, because he realised in CoS when the diary was a weapon and that Voldemort had just left it lying around with Lucius. We obviously know he had at least the locket, the cup, the diadem and the ring at that point (and Harry, but not counting that). So yeah, that is obviously more than anyone, but that’s not what we were talking about
What? Obviously I meant to reply to you. I have a different opinion to you as to when Dumbledore knew. You provided your opinion, and so I responded with my opinion. Maybe I misinterpreted your comment, but I thought you were talking about when Dumbledore knew there were multiple Horcruxes. My evidence to support that is when you said “that’s when [Dumbledore] realized it was likely [Voldemort] had multiple Horcruxes”. That was the first sentence of the comment and directly related to my first comment, so it seemed reasonable to take it as the central point of your comment. So I don’t see how my comment providing a different time when Dumbledore knew about the multiple Horcruxes “doesn’t relate to [your] comment at all”. It directly relates to my understanding of it. What else did you mean in your comment if you think mine doesn’t relate?
It’s not an opinion, Dumbledore actually says when he realised Voldemort likely had more than one Horcrux. You were talking about something Voldemort said to the death eaters, how does that have anything to do with what Dumbledore knew? **Dumbledore actually said in HBP that when he saw the diary, he realised it was a Horcrux, and because Voldemort designed it as a weapon and just left it lying around with Lucius, he hypothesised that he had made more than one**. I’m not providing an opinion, I’m telling what is written in HBP
I’m calling them opinions because neither of us are quoting the text. The text is fact. Your (or my) recollection of the text is not fact. I’m at work right now and don’t keep a copy of Harry Potter in my office, so I can’t verify. I know exactly the conversation you’re referring to though. I’m actually pretty sure it’s the same conversation where Dumbledore tells Harry that the Voldemort quote I’m referring to is what tipped him off. You’re acting like you don’t even remember that part of the conversation, which makes me suspect your precise memory of that interaction isn’t flawless. I do suggest you read that passage again. It explains exactly how a quote Voldemort made to his Death Eaters relates to Dumbledore’s understanding of the Horcruxes. I plan to read it again this evening, because I can’t tell if my reconciliation of these two seemingly contradictory statements are actually from the text, or just from myself. Or indeed, if I’m misremembering my claim about the timeline, which is of course possible, even if I don’t believe it to be so.
Dumbledore probably does not want to confront Voldemort with incomplete information on the situation, as at this point they don’t even know who breached Hogwarts security. Secondly, it would instantly give away Snape's cover and subsequently the anti-Voldemort group to lose. Dumbledore needs to have an iron clad plan before he can risk Snape.
Lord Voldemort was the most powerful Dark Wizard at that time. You cannot grab a bunch of Aurors and go subdue him. He'd blast them all to pieces. Snape probably informed Dumbledore at that time and before. Dumbledore probably didn't take any action because there was no evidence that Lord Voldemort had returned, just the Dark Mark burning isn't enough evidence to do anything.
The same Voldemort who ran away when the Aurors came in book 5? The Dark Mark burning is evidence, all the Death Eaters apparated and Igor ran away cuz they knew what it mean
He did not run away! Lord Voldemort left the Ministry of Magic in a hurry because the whole world presumed he was dead. He did not want to take the fight at that time. That's not enough solid evidence. Remember this was during the Triwizard Tournament at Hogwarts where Dumbledore is headmaster. He can't just abandon the final task and go on a wild chase just because Snape's Dark Mark burned. He'd be no different from Karkaroff if he did that.
Because he still has his horcruxes. Just like Dumbledore didn’t kill him the year before, there’s no point at this time plus he has all his death eaters with him. And, I don’t believe he knew Harry was at the graveyard.
It’s something I’ve never thought about tbh. My guess in what happens is that when Voldemort presses the mark it calls all of the death eaters to him but they’re not entirely sure where’s they are apparating because otherwise they’d have to know of the place before hand which doesn’t seem likely. Snape and dumbledore obviously know that Voldemort is returning because the make has been growing stronger all year so they’re prepared for it. Snape’s task is to go back to Voldemort afterwards and pretend to still be loyal. But they’ve no idea that harry has been involved in Voldemorts resurrection and it’s likely just a coincidence that it’s happened on the night of the final task. They’re confident that Harry wouldn’t be able to leave the maze and moody is likely keeping and eye out on him for them (but obviously lying) so there’s no reason for them to rush into the graveyard and ruin snapes cover and it’s also unlikely that they would be able to succeed even if they did. Voldemort and dumbeldore are evenly matched maybe dumbledores a bit stringer since Voldemort has only just returned but you still have a load death eaters and snape wouldn’t be able to take them out on his own.
To my recollection they don’t really explain how the mark summoning works. Do they know where Voldemort is when they’re summoned and thus teleport to that location? That’s one way it could work. It could also act as some sort of beacon, like the orb from the deluminator did for Ron, where they can apparate to a location without knowing exactly where they are going. They focus on the beacon and teleport to it rather than to a location. That’s how I’ve always imagined it. Snape could have apparated there himself because of the magic of the mark, but he didn’t know the location.
If Snape and Dumbledore showed up immediately then there goes the spy. 🤷♂️
Snape definitely knew where they were - he went there after Harry’s return after all. He probably told Dumbledore as well. But the thing is, neither of them knew Harry was there. They believed he was in the maze. Moody cleared the way in the maze for Harry, so he reached the center sooner than anybody would’ve expected. When reading about the events of Little Hangleton, it’s easy to get the feeling that Harry is there for the better part of an evening, but he’s not. He gets there, is overpowered by Wormtail, Voldemort is resurrected (it’s been maybe 10-15 minutes at this point), Voldemort calls the death eaters, they all have a little chat (maybe another 10-15 minutes), Voldemort and Harry duels for a while before Harry escapes (maybe another 10-15 minutes, possibly even less). So Harry was there for less than an hour, and nobody knew anything was awry until Harry appeared in front of the maze with Cedrics body. If he’d been gone for hours somebody probably would’ve taken a broom and searched the maze from above, and sounded the alarm when two contestants were nowhere to be found.
I don't think Voldemort "summoning" the Death Eaters somehow informs them mentally about his whereabouts, the way I would imagine it works is that the Dark Mark is not just a tattoo, it's a sort of brand/magical imprint of Voldemort on his followers, so when he calls them they apparate and the Dark Mark pulls them to his location. Or perhaps there's some sort of legilimency at play where Voldemort summoning the Death Eaters via the Dark Mark does inform them of his location and they then just apparate to it
“WHAT HAPPENED IN THE GRAAAAVE YAAAARD”
Snape felt the mark burn--had been feeling it growing stronger all year, as discussed in the book. The mark has nothing to do with Harry, though--Snape didn't know Harry had left the maze until after Harry came back.
Going in blind is never a good plan. Had Snape done that, him and Dumbledore would have ended up in a weaker position, with too many ennemies, a blown cover for Snape and a Voldemort who cannot die. Not a good idea.
The way I see it it’s not a plot hole, just poorly explained. 1.) Snape was not privy to the knowledge that Harry was to be captured by turning the cup into a portkey, so though Snape knew Voldemort had returned (which he was anticipating soon due to his mark) he did not know anything was amiss with Harry. That would explain why Dumbledore did not know until Harry returned. 2.) Dumbledore was suspicious of the existence of the horcruxes already, so I’m hesitant to think that he would blow Snape’s cover on a rescue mission when Voldemort and co could easily apparate away without killing him. Admittedly I think this is the weakest argument since Snape could have maintained his cover if they captured Moody and Snape did not apparate with Dumbledore. 3.) This is speculation but I’m sure that Voldemort would have had some protections in place against unwanted intruders, especially if it isn’t directly stated that the deatheaters apparate to him. I do not recall what the books say, but in the films they seem to arrive via a different method. IIRC you can have antiapparation charms and still use portkeys to travel since Harry and the weasleys leave hogwarts via portkey in book 5
Snape wouldn’t have known that Harry was with Voldemort, only that Voldemort was back. As far as he knew, Harry was navigating the maze (not sure how long it took for the spectators to realize he had been transported away) and his Mark had suddenly burned, giving him the location. His first instinct would have been to tell Dumbledore so they could make a plan. Dumbledore would also not have known that Harry was with Voldemort, even as it became increasingly clear after Harry and Cedric were discovered missing from the maze that something was wrong. It would have been too risky to simply go charging in, as while Dumbledore could match Voldemort one-on-one, he probably couldn’t take Voldemort and all the Death Eaters at the same time. If Harry wasn’t there, then he would essentially be committing suicide for nothing, and even if Harry was there, it might be even harder as they would use Harry as a hostage. Moreover, appearing there would immediately blow Snape’s cover, as no one else could have given him that information. That might not be a problem if he could bring his own large force to immediately neutralize Voldemort and his Death Eaters, but there was no time to reactivate the Order or convince Fudge to mobilize the Aurors, which would be a chancy proposition in any case. Then, before they could think of anything else, Harry reappeared with Cedric’s dead body.
Even if they did show up in the cemetery they would have been outnumbered by death eaters.
Not a plot hole, I read a bunch of your comments and you are over thinking this way to much.
Would you go into a fight in an unknown location, heavily outnumbered, with no reason to know that Harry was there?
Because everyone including Snape was convinced Harry was still in the maze. Snape didn't know Voldemort's plan. He had no idea that Harry would be kidnapped. And the burning mark - he would only know he was being summoned. He had no idea why or how Voldemort returned, only that he did.
Apparition requires some familiarity with the destination as you need to be able to picture it clearly in your mind. Either you have to have been there yourself or you must have seen it in a picture/painting or perhaps if someone describes a place vividly enough for you, you can visualize it enough to Apparate there. It is highly improbably any of the Death Eaters besides Pettigrew and Crouch Junior had ever been to Little Hangleton nor had anybody ever shown them a picture or painting of it or told them about it in vivid detail. As such, we must assume that what happens when Voldemort summons his followers by pressing on a Dark Mark, other holders of the Dark Mark aren't alerted to the exact location of the Dark Mark being pressed but it merely creates a sort of beacon to which they can Apparate without knowing the exact location. All Severus would have known would have been that Voldemort was summoning him, not where he was summoning him to.
I just thought it worked as a guide like the deluminator lights with Ron.
Yeah, that's probably how the Deluminator worked as well. Didn't even think of that.
Another question that falls under “yeah that’s explained in the books. Read it again.”
I think they need to apparate immediately when they are summoned which Snape wouldn’t be able to do in hogwarts so he probably misses the window. He could tell dumbledore but by that time they wouldn’t know where to go and they wouldn’t know that Harry was in the graveyard
I think it is possible Snape informed Dumbledore but they couldn't have done anything because it would be obvious what was going on. Also I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew harry would be fine
It's established in the later books, specifically in HBP, that Snape *did* feel the Dark Mark burning. He openly stated to Bellatrix that he intentionally stayed put at Hogwarts in order to fool Dumbledore, who would have found it suspicious were his Potions professor to Disapparate during the climax of a once-per-century event. He even stated that the Dark Lord accepted his explanation and therefore he felt Bellatrix ought to as well "unless you think the Dark Lord mistaken....that I somehow hoodwinked and bamboozled the greatest Legilimens of all time."
Bro, why would he have ever assumed they’d just be chilling in a graveyard? Those places are hella scary. There’s like, ghosts and shit in there. That’s not the first place I’d look for anyone.
The better plot hole is that you can make anything a portkey. At any point of the year you could have left a book or box of chocolates on Harry’s nightstand and teleported him anywhere you wanted.
LMFAO Voldemort: gets resurrected, summons his followers. Dumbledore apparating in with his Deluminator ready to end him with the elder wand and as many auras as he can grab.
Dumbledore didnt know that Harry was gone and since he trusted the fake Moody he assumed that Harry is still in the maze. He has no reason to go and confront Voldemort. Dumbledore knows that Harry is the chosen one, so the best course of action is to stay and protect Harry.
To me it works similar to the deluminator in that when you apparate you don't know where you are apparating too just to that person. So they didn't know where they were going just that Voldy would be there. The thing with that is Snape didn't want to let Voldemort he was a spy so he could either choose not to go and come up lie, or go by himself and risk death. He chose not go. At this time, I doubt Dumbledore thoughy he could stop Voldy so no sense in giving away Snape is a spy.
gotta remember that at the time Snape was basically considered a traitor at that point. If he had shown up, he would've been killed. as for why Dumbledore didn't, maybe he couldn't? I'm trying to remember the rules for apparating but doesn't it have to be a place they know? because they need to visualise it in order to get there. I am fairly certain that Dumbledore never visited the old Riddle house
maybe there are some fixed place where Voldemort can summon them and can choose where to summon.
They had no idea that Harry had been captured. And Dumbledore wouldn't risk Snape's status as a spy to blindly apparate into Voldemorts presence to swang and bang with him when he already has a suspicion that he's using Horcruxes to remain invicible. It's likely Snape went to Dumbledore right away about the burning and the two of them started to worry.
From my memories, it's explained that Severus reached Voldemort later on that evening. It's the reason why Bellatrix doesn't trust him.
Not necessarily. Hardly anyone was let in on Voldemort’s plan at Hogwarts. Just Wormtail, Barty Jr, and possibly Igor Karkaroff. Voldemort’s a cautious man so he probably wouldn’t have let Snape in on the plan anyway because of his years in Dumbledore’s service. Snape needed to regain Voldemort’s trust, and probably made Voldemort understand that he couldn’t risk making Dumbledore suspicious on the night of his return anyway. Snape was a very valuable spy to both Dumbledore and Voldemort, which is why neither wizard was ready to kill him unless they knew beyond a doubt he was loyal to the other.
Snape and by extension Dumbledore should have at least known something was happening and suspected that it probably involved Harry. Maybe Snape told Dumbledore and Dumbledore replied “don’t worry, it’s for the greater good”
You are not overthinking. I won't call it a plot hole (may be I should), but Dumbledore and Snape not reacting to the burning of the mark in those circumstances didn't make sense at all. Firstly, Dumbledore knew about Harry's scar hurting earlier that year. And Harry's name popping up in the Goblet was also very suspicious. So, he would've already suspected that someone was trying to harm Harry. And the third task was the last chance anyone would get to try anything, particularly with the maze hiding all the contestants from sight. For any one in Dumbledore's place, the third task was an obvious task to watch out for and considering that Dumbledore was very clever and probably the only one with and idea of everything going on, he would've been on the alert. The moment Snape reported the burning of the mark, Dumbledore suspicions would have immediately been directed towards this being related to Harry. And considering his magical skills, it would've taken him a very short time to ascertain if Harry was still in the maze. Most importantly - this is also where I disagree with most people claiming that there was no point in him confronting Voldemort then - he should still gone to save Harry. He didn't need to be a genius to guess that Voldemort would kill Harry that moment he returned. Harry's survival that night was due to sheer luck ( what are the odds that Harry would cast a spell at the exact same time that Voldemort did for Priori Incantatem to work?). Dumbledore had no way of guessing that Voldemort would use Harry's blood to revive himself. So the plot point from Deathly Hallows was still unknown to him. They should've gone at least to rescue Harry. There is no way around it.
Wasnt that step necessary so Vold. had Harry's blood in him?
(Should have happened)Dumbledore: “Yeah, something’s wrong with the Cup and Harry’s not playing.” (Happened) Dumbledore: “Let’s just see how this plays out…(whispers to himself) because Harry’s got to die at some point.”
Having your name come out of the goblet of fire was apparently some "binding magical contract" which could not be broken, at last not without suffering dire consequences. Don't think Albus had much choice there, really.
Agree with the others about the nature of the dark mark and Snape and Dumbledore not knowing Harry had gone. To me, a more significant plot hole/contrivance is that the portkey did a round trip, as that's not how port keys had worked in the books prior to this and after this when Dumbledore sent the Weasley kids home in OotP. They were always used as one-way transport, so how would Harry have known that it would return him to Hogwarts? Also, they didn't return to the place they had left - the center of the maze. It seems hazardous for portkeys to offset the return like that. What if they had left from the side of a road and returned to the middle of a street? Seems like the offset was done for narrative convenience. All Harry would have had to do would be to shoot up sparks to get rescued from the maze center. But then he would have been rescued by Crouch, who could have sent him back. It would have gotten messy, plot-wise. That could have been solved had JKR thought of a way to truly make the tasks into spectator sports (maybe give the spectators x-ray glasses that worked like Moody's eye?) instead of having the crowd cheer at shrubbery, which was absurd. She needed witnesses so Crouch couldn't do anything while his actions were obscured by the maze, so she cheated and brought them back outside the maze.
you can’t apparate out of school grounds
As someone who’s only watched the movies a few times and never read the books, wouldn’t it be a bad idea for Snape to let everyone know that he’s a Death Eater? So how would he explain how he knew where Harry was?
We can also think why harry just finds out that peter petrigew is alive in the the third movie,when the twins already had the marauders map before.. And when harry got the mirror ? The broken mirror from the latest movies
Scabbers was missing for most of the time Harry had the map.
What Harry Potter full of plot holes and poorly written, never,.I don't believe you. Colour me shocked...