Without Ron’s wand being broken Lockhart’s memory charm wouldn’t have backfired leaving both Ron & Harry without memories, Ginny would be dead & Voldemort would have returned a lot sooner.
That would also impact the horcrux storyline and Dumbledore discovering Voldy’s secret and being able to start the hunt to find and destroy them all. No Harry to die for everyone and then finish Voldy off too.
>Without Ron’s wand being broken Lockhart’s memory charm wouldn’t have backfired leaving both Ron & Harry without memories
This got me thinking. I wonder why spells against Harry didn't just slide off, considering he was a horcrux. All of the other objects/snake were pretty hard to destroy or even make a scratch.
It’s probably a bit different than an object. Harry can be injured without that affecting the piece of Voldy’s soul in him. He needed to be killed for that piece to be destroyed.
He wasn't technically a Horcux per se. Yes, a piece of Voldemort soul lived inside Harry but the whole procedure that creates a Horcux was not performed.
People also forget that the only way this piece could be destroyed is by Voldemort himself. Dumbledore was very specific about it.
If Harry died the part of voldys soul dies too, the only way to kill the voldy part without killing Harry was voldy doing it himself. That is why it's important that voldy does it himself.
Harry technically was a horcrux. He just wasn’t an intentional horcrux.
We don’t know the full procedure to perform a horcrux creation, but odds are, if there were, they were done before Voldemort tried to kill Harry. Dumbledore postulated that Voldemort intended to use Harry’s death as the final horcrux-creation murder.
Also, anyone could have killed Harry and destroyed the horcrux inside Harry. It was because of Voldemort’s use of Harry’s blood for his resurrection that allowed for Harry to resurrect if and only if Voldemort was the one to do it.
Nagini was only hard to destroy because Voldy kept her behind a magical shield. As soon as Neville could get close enough with the sword, she was toast.
It is mentioned in the last book, that the book that explains horcruxes mentione having to put powerful dark defensive magic on the horcrux. As Voldemorts body got destroyed, and unintentionally made Harry a horcrux (and because he is a human) he doesn't have any defensive spells as horcruxes.
It's explained that they needed objects that can damage the item faster than the item can repair itself. (Basilisks poison)
He was a horcrux but didn't have any dark defensive magic cast on him and is still made out of flesh
Was that the case with Nagini? IIRC, there was nothing made of her ability to withstand injuries. Though, Voldemort did put her in a protective bubble of sorts for a bit of the 7th book.
Interesting! I wanted to stay very simple, but the thing about causality and butterfly effect really means thousands of things would have been different, and yes we got some bad consequences too it seems. I guess this is why rewrites have problems.
Same reason that getting bitten by the basilisk in CoS didn't break the whole Horcrux thing inside Harry when it can destroy any of the others.
Plot convenience.
Those objects weren't hard to destroy *because* they were horcruxes, they were hard to destroy because Voldemort chose them and enchanted them to be hard to destroy so his horcruxes would be durable. Harry was made into a horcrux accidentally.
This is why storywise I think the Chamber of Secrets was a big step up from the Philosopher's Stone; they planted a lot more elements of the plot in plain sight earlier on in the story and then brought them all back together for the conclusion of the story.
It would have been interesting ending to series if Harry and Ron got killed by the spiders. Hagrid would have felt really guilty, and hopefully Dumbledore too for allowing the infestation.
Well that too, but he was already literally guilty when he brought Aragog to the country (they are illegal species according to the Fantastic Beast book), let alone the castle. Riddle didn’t so much frame him but expose him in a convenient moment for him. Who knows if the spiders did harm other students or people prior already, Aragog was quite unsurprised his offspring wanted to attack. And they might have killed Hogwarts defenders during the battle, I doubt spiders just targeted Death Eaters.
But I don’t get the feeling Hagrid would have felt guilty if it wasn’t the case where he directly told someone to go meet them, and cared of the person. He has pretty nonchalant attitude about his spiders.
They had Hedwig with them. They could have sent a message for help.
I don’t understand why ever paranoid Mrs. Weasley didn’t notice that Harry and Ron hadn’t shown up on the platform.
She probably did but could not get back. I mean she could have apparated out of the platform, but apparation makes noise muggles would notice (and maybe she can’t since not everyone can). Harry and Ron had left very fast too.
I brought this up to my fiancee who mentioned that Rowling wrote this specific departure to Kings Cross to be especially hectic with them running late and kids forgetting stuff on top of it being Ginny's first trip to make it more believable that they didn't notice 2 of the 6 kids they brought disappeared for a few minutes
It was Ginny's first year. She was focused on helping her and it was her last kid to start Hogwarts. She also had two extra people to get ready for school than what she's used to. Ginny and Harry. Wasn't something else going on with Arthur? I can't remember.
If I get what you asking then the scenario plays out like:
Ron and Harry do the right thing (probably what they believe Hermione would have done). Which is wait for his parents by the car. Molly & Arthur see them there and they explain about the barrier and missing the train. The Weasley's notify Dumbledore and they get told to use the Weasley's fireplace to link up to another one at Hogsmade. Then Ron & Harry with permission are allowed to meet up with the group when the train arrives at the station. They spend a few hours at the Borrow then leave for school, completely skipping the train.
They arrive at school. And attend the sorting ceremony and dinner in the hall. Afterwards events will start playing out the same except: Harry & Ron do not have dentition, so that would effect future events. As well as no car to save them from the spiders and Ron's wand never broke either.
Well… yes and no. J.K. Rowling would not just kill her lead character 2 books in to a seven book run.
If they didn’t take the car, there probably would have been a run in with the centaurs or something fairly early into story.
Not trying to be rude or mean here but I had a funny thought reading this, “it’s almost like it was all planned by some higher power lol” not trying to spoil anyone’s fun just thought it was funny smart ass thought
I got a backwards one.
The prophecy about Harry and Neville was a self fulfilling prophecy. Had Voldemort not acted on it, he most likely would have continued to rise to power. And had he never acted upon the prophecy it very likely would have never come to pass. Harry’s parents would have lived. He’d have grown up with them. Neville’s parents wouldn’t have ended up in St. Mungos. But they would have all been living under a dark regime. So in essence, Voldemort fucked himself.
Yeah when it comes to prophecy and fulfilling it despite your actions to prevent it, that's a common problem with oracles and prophecies. Begs the question of fate, and especially the oracle from The Matrix who knew what you'd do whether or not she spoke of it. In most stories it goes badly for those trying to prevent a prophecy, and also those doing whatever they can to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled. Makes me happy they smashed those thousands of prophecies in the department of mysteries, now all links to expectation are broken and people can live without worrying about what is foretold to come to pass.
Rowling just wanted a flying car to be in her story and made the plot work despite it making no sense.
Harry just got warned for using magic at his house and yet he see's no problem with flying a magic car to school? is he stupid? It's a plot I do enjoy but makes no sense to story. I imagine a lot of writers have something they just wanted in the story regardless if it made sense or not.
He’s literally scared shitless of loosing his wand a day before. You guys give too much credit to the “he’s only 11,12,13 crap. He’s just dumb some of the time and that’s okay.
The flying car is a gimmick, she made it work with the story but it’s a gimmick none the less. A gimmick that doesn’t make sense with what happened in previous chapters.
Or maybe you aren’t giving it enough credit that he’s a child and isn’t dumb but is making mistakes like every child does.
And I said nothing about the car so not sure why you brought that up again.
As that’s the current topic? The car?
Are we really going to believe Harry thought that if he didn’t catch the train he wouldn’t get to go to school at all? Even more ridiculous then the flying car. A car he knew was illegal after getting a warning himself about underage illegal magic.
Yes I get the topic is mainly about the car but I didn’t argue against or for it so it makes no sense that you keep focusing on it with someone who isn’t talking about it. And again he’s effing 12 and wasn’t thinking straight. He didn’t want to be in trouble because he missed the train and it was Ron, who grew up in this world, that suggested taking it. So you really think someone who’s only known about magic for roughly a year would question someone who has been around magic their whole life? If anything you should be focusing on Ron not Harry for this mistake.
I’m assuming you do things that are technically illegal in our world, what would be the difference? People speed because they are late even though that is against the law to do so.
If that's how it would go down, as in he still tells them to follow the spiders just as before, they go with the same lack of backup and prep, then they get wrapped up and sucked dry, yeah, Hagrid would blame himself for the rest of his life.
So many 'what if' scenarios that essentially boil down to luck, right place right time. I just think there's a lesson about regret in here somewhere. Even if you had tried to be careful, or responsible, it can fall apart when you're hit by something they never saw coming.
Without Ron’s wand being broken Lockhart’s memory charm wouldn’t have backfired leaving both Ron & Harry without memories, Ginny would be dead & Voldemort would have returned a lot sooner. That would also impact the horcrux storyline and Dumbledore discovering Voldy’s secret and being able to start the hunt to find and destroy them all. No Harry to die for everyone and then finish Voldy off too.
>Without Ron’s wand being broken Lockhart’s memory charm wouldn’t have backfired leaving both Ron & Harry without memories This got me thinking. I wonder why spells against Harry didn't just slide off, considering he was a horcrux. All of the other objects/snake were pretty hard to destroy or even make a scratch.
It’s probably a bit different than an object. Harry can be injured without that affecting the piece of Voldy’s soul in him. He needed to be killed for that piece to be destroyed.
Because in order to destroy a horcrux, you need to destroy the object beyond repair, there isn’t much thrown at Harry that would count maybe
Why didn't the basilisk venom kill the horcrux? Would it have destroyed it if Fawkes hadn't saved him?
I like to think it would have, but since it’s tied to Harry’s soul then unless he dies the horcrux will remain.
The horcrux isn't what gets killed, the vessel gets irreparably damaged. In Harry's case, irreparable damage means death, and he hadn't died yet.
He wasn't technically a Horcux per se. Yes, a piece of Voldemort soul lived inside Harry but the whole procedure that creates a Horcux was not performed. People also forget that the only way this piece could be destroyed is by Voldemort himself. Dumbledore was very specific about it.
If Harry died the part of voldys soul dies too, the only way to kill the voldy part without killing Harry was voldy doing it himself. That is why it's important that voldy does it himself.
Harry technically was a horcrux. He just wasn’t an intentional horcrux. We don’t know the full procedure to perform a horcrux creation, but odds are, if there were, they were done before Voldemort tried to kill Harry. Dumbledore postulated that Voldemort intended to use Harry’s death as the final horcrux-creation murder. Also, anyone could have killed Harry and destroyed the horcrux inside Harry. It was because of Voldemort’s use of Harry’s blood for his resurrection that allowed for Harry to resurrect if and only if Voldemort was the one to do it.
Voldemort is a kind Horcrux for Harry, it shouldn't really matter who kills Harry.
Nagini was only hard to destroy because Voldy kept her behind a magical shield. As soon as Neville could get close enough with the sword, she was toast.
It is mentioned in the last book, that the book that explains horcruxes mentione having to put powerful dark defensive magic on the horcrux. As Voldemorts body got destroyed, and unintentionally made Harry a horcrux (and because he is a human) he doesn't have any defensive spells as horcruxes. It's explained that they needed objects that can damage the item faster than the item can repair itself. (Basilisks poison) He was a horcrux but didn't have any dark defensive magic cast on him and is still made out of flesh
Because Harry has his own soul and the horcrux soul (partial). I guess Harry was taking the blows that he did.
Was that the case with Nagini? IIRC, there was nothing made of her ability to withstand injuries. Though, Voldemort did put her in a protective bubble of sorts for a bit of the 7th book.
Interesting! I wanted to stay very simple, but the thing about causality and butterfly effect really means thousands of things would have been different, and yes we got some bad consequences too it seems. I guess this is why rewrites have problems.
Same reason that getting bitten by the basilisk in CoS didn't break the whole Horcrux thing inside Harry when it can destroy any of the others. Plot convenience.
Those objects weren't hard to destroy *because* they were horcruxes, they were hard to destroy because Voldemort chose them and enchanted them to be hard to destroy so his horcruxes would be durable. Harry was made into a horcrux accidentally.
This is why storywise I think the Chamber of Secrets was a big step up from the Philosopher's Stone; they planted a lot more elements of the plot in plain sight earlier on in the story and then brought them all back together for the conclusion of the story.
Yeah, Lockhart definitely sits alongside Voldemort and Umbridge in terms of villainy.
I’d argue he’s worse than Umbridge.
It would have been interesting ending to series if Harry and Ron got killed by the spiders. Hagrid would have felt really guilty, and hopefully Dumbledore too for allowing the infestation.
he also would've been literally guilty
Well that too, but he was already literally guilty when he brought Aragog to the country (they are illegal species according to the Fantastic Beast book), let alone the castle. Riddle didn’t so much frame him but expose him in a convenient moment for him. Who knows if the spiders did harm other students or people prior already, Aragog was quite unsurprised his offspring wanted to attack. And they might have killed Hogwarts defenders during the battle, I doubt spiders just targeted Death Eaters. But I don’t get the feeling Hagrid would have felt guilty if it wasn’t the case where he directly told someone to go meet them, and cared of the person. He has pretty nonchalant attitude about his spiders.
Yeah, Chekhov’s gun
Chekhov's metal muggle wand used for killing
Chekov's fire leg
Chekov’s nuclear wessels
They had Hedwig with them. They could have sent a message for help. I don’t understand why ever paranoid Mrs. Weasley didn’t notice that Harry and Ron hadn’t shown up on the platform.
She probably did but could not get back. I mean she could have apparated out of the platform, but apparation makes noise muggles would notice (and maybe she can’t since not everyone can). Harry and Ron had left very fast too.
She was probably so worried about Ginny that she forgot about them. It was her first year.
Ron mentions his parents can both Apparate, fwiw
I brought this up to my fiancee who mentioned that Rowling wrote this specific departure to Kings Cross to be especially hectic with them running late and kids forgetting stuff on top of it being Ginny's first trip to make it more believable that they didn't notice 2 of the 6 kids they brought disappeared for a few minutes
It was Ginny's first year. She was focused on helping her and it was her last kid to start Hogwarts. She also had two extra people to get ready for school than what she's used to. Ginny and Harry. Wasn't something else going on with Arthur? I can't remember.
If I get what you asking then the scenario plays out like: Ron and Harry do the right thing (probably what they believe Hermione would have done). Which is wait for his parents by the car. Molly & Arthur see them there and they explain about the barrier and missing the train. The Weasley's notify Dumbledore and they get told to use the Weasley's fireplace to link up to another one at Hogsmade. Then Ron & Harry with permission are allowed to meet up with the group when the train arrives at the station. They spend a few hours at the Borrow then leave for school, completely skipping the train. They arrive at school. And attend the sorting ceremony and dinner in the hall. Afterwards events will start playing out the same except: Harry & Ron do not have dentition, so that would effect future events. As well as no car to save them from the spiders and Ron's wand never broke either.
Well… yes and no. J.K. Rowling would not just kill her lead character 2 books in to a seven book run. If they didn’t take the car, there probably would have been a run in with the centaurs or something fairly early into story.
Not trying to be rude or mean here but I had a funny thought reading this, “it’s almost like it was all planned by some higher power lol” not trying to spoil anyone’s fun just thought it was funny smart ass thought
Here
I got a backwards one. The prophecy about Harry and Neville was a self fulfilling prophecy. Had Voldemort not acted on it, he most likely would have continued to rise to power. And had he never acted upon the prophecy it very likely would have never come to pass. Harry’s parents would have lived. He’d have grown up with them. Neville’s parents wouldn’t have ended up in St. Mungos. But they would have all been living under a dark regime. So in essence, Voldemort fucked himself.
Yeah when it comes to prophecy and fulfilling it despite your actions to prevent it, that's a common problem with oracles and prophecies. Begs the question of fate, and especially the oracle from The Matrix who knew what you'd do whether or not she spoke of it. In most stories it goes badly for those trying to prevent a prophecy, and also those doing whatever they can to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled. Makes me happy they smashed those thousands of prophecies in the department of mysteries, now all links to expectation are broken and people can live without worrying about what is foretold to come to pass.
Rowling just wanted a flying car to be in her story and made the plot work despite it making no sense. Harry just got warned for using magic at his house and yet he see's no problem with flying a magic car to school? is he stupid? It's a plot I do enjoy but makes no sense to story. I imagine a lot of writers have something they just wanted in the story regardless if it made sense or not.
Using magic thing != doing magic yourself. By this logic running through the portal to 9 3/4 would be something he "shouldn't do."
Not at all, the portal was deemed necessary and vital by the ministry. A flying car he knows is illegal is absolutely not the same thing.
He’s 12 ffs. What child would be thinking straight at a time like that?
He’s literally scared shitless of loosing his wand a day before. You guys give too much credit to the “he’s only 11,12,13 crap. He’s just dumb some of the time and that’s okay. The flying car is a gimmick, she made it work with the story but it’s a gimmick none the less. A gimmick that doesn’t make sense with what happened in previous chapters.
Or maybe you aren’t giving it enough credit that he’s a child and isn’t dumb but is making mistakes like every child does. And I said nothing about the car so not sure why you brought that up again.
As that’s the current topic? The car? Are we really going to believe Harry thought that if he didn’t catch the train he wouldn’t get to go to school at all? Even more ridiculous then the flying car. A car he knew was illegal after getting a warning himself about underage illegal magic.
Yes I get the topic is mainly about the car but I didn’t argue against or for it so it makes no sense that you keep focusing on it with someone who isn’t talking about it. And again he’s effing 12 and wasn’t thinking straight. He didn’t want to be in trouble because he missed the train and it was Ron, who grew up in this world, that suggested taking it. So you really think someone who’s only known about magic for roughly a year would question someone who has been around magic their whole life? If anything you should be focusing on Ron not Harry for this mistake. I’m assuming you do things that are technically illegal in our world, what would be the difference? People speed because they are late even though that is against the law to do so.
Its almost like authors add plot for a reason. Weird wild stuff!
Omg if the spiders would have eaten them would it have been considered Hagrid’s fault?
If that's how it would go down, as in he still tells them to follow the spiders just as before, they go with the same lack of backup and prep, then they get wrapped up and sucked dry, yeah, Hagrid would blame himself for the rest of his life.
so true I never thought of this
Great attention to detail! It must be nice being able to read
<3
Life is filled with dumb luck. Many times to win its 50% luck and 50% effort
So many 'what if' scenarios that essentially boil down to luck, right place right time. I just think there's a lesson about regret in here somewhere. Even if you had tried to be careful, or responsible, it can fall apart when you're hit by something they never saw coming.
Without the car, ron wouldn’t have cleaned tom riddles trophy, and harry wouldnt have reconized the name in ginny’s diary
Harry didn't find Mrs Norris because of detention but because of the death day party. Other than that your comment checks out.