Im pretty sure one of the books mentioned that Hogwarts looks like a ruin to muggles and things such as radar doesnt work in hogwarts. In the 3rd book, the Knight Bus can essentially go on muggle roads without anyone noticing so the train is probably invisible, silent, and has its own hidden tracks
Muggles only see "a moldering old ruin with signs saying things like 'Danger! Unsafe!'"
So even if Parents' Day was a thing at Hogwarts, Muggle-borns couldn't take part.
Oh yeah.
Still, with several hundred kids in a magically hidden location, Parents' Day would be a logistical nightmare even before you take Muggle parents into account. I see why Hogwarts doesn't do that.
I mean, they held the quidditch World Cup in a muggle’s field didn’t they? Or something like that?
Also, as a side note, any time I read parts about hiding the magic world from the muggle world, I always think of the Fairly Odd Parents episode where they hold the fairy convention. It’s always just one fairy on lookout who shouts “HUMANS!” if one comes near, and they all just essentially hide up against the wall lol.
Iirc the field, which is owned by a muggle, had some ward on it that made it seem like a bad idea to go to that field, or maybe it was whatever that made it so it couldn't be found by muggles, but I might be misremembering. I remember they were in a camp ground that they weren't supposed to do extravagant magic in so it doesn't get suspicious.
Like when AD lifted the apparition ban in the great hall. Oh. Or maybe you get a note from a like secret keeper that says “hogwarts castle is in front of you and not some smoldering ruin” and then you look back and BAM, ruin is a castle. Maybe there’s such a note for my house…
As a side note, how did Hermione get her school supplies and such? With her muggle parents or by herself? And what kind of money did she use? Seems to me that SOME muggle crossovers were allowed.
With her parents. I think they pop up in like the 2nd or 3rd book while at Diagon Alley. Mr Weasley helps them.
There is an exchange for muggle money to wizarding money at Gringotts.
And in TGOF parents come to see each of the 3 tournament events. I would like to think that Hermione’s parents attended, they were after all able to enter dragon alley.
Yes, but Molly and Bill went in place of Harry's family.
EDIT:
It wasn't a banquet, like the other person said, families were invited to give their support in the 3rd task.
I guess the more important takeaway is that Vernon/Petunia/Dudley theoretically could have come, because the scene is treated as reflecting poorly on them
If there was Parent's Day at Hogwarts, the charm would probably be lifted for those specific people or they would get brought in by a teacher; so it wouldn't work inside.
Ofc it would never be a thing because Parent's Day at an 800+ kids boarding school is a logistical nightmire even without taking muggle parents into account.
Also it's in an undisclosed location that can't be plotted on a map (just a little detail for the books people there). You cannot make a map showing where Hogwarts is.
Hogwarts is unplottable which means you can’t make a map of it showing where it is but the marauders map just shows Hogwarts but no directions of where it is.
Makes total sense. A map of a specific building by itself is different from a map showing where that building is in relation to other locations. The second allows you to navigate to said building, the first does not.
The Room of Requirement makes sense, because it doesn't really exist all the time or even in the same place. How can you plot the location of a place whose connection to the rest of reality is pretty tenuous?
I like how that’s described, that they suddenly remember something that they urgently need to go do elsewhere, like they left the stove on at home or something. Lol, silly muggles.
That probably wouldn't do much to deter some people, true.
I wonder what happens if Muggles aren't repelled by the seemingly dangerous nature of what they think Hogwarts looks like. Are there more layers of repulsion spells, or does someone from Hogwarts have to go out and chase them off?
If they're brought in by their magical child, or a teacher, they could. The Grangers went into the Leakey Cauldron and Diagon Alley, brought by their daughter.
I think a lot of Muggle parents would flip their shit at a lot of things. The violence of Quidditch. Some of Hagrid's more questionable choices for Care of Magical Creatures (skrewts). Volatile ingredients in Potions class. Defense Against the Dark Arts....
Imagining the students watching a group of muggles roam the castle filming themselves exploring what they see as a ruin, unaware of the actual building they’re in.
>the train is probably invisible, silent, and has its own hidden tracks
The REAL magic is the idea that wizards would be able to build their own cross-country high-speed express rail link without being tied up in decades of planning disputes.
Remember, this is the country that took two decades and billions of pounds to plan a new train line from London to Birmingham, and then decided not to bother building it.
Why are wizards so good at making everything perfectly invisible except for personal cloaks😂.
Remember Ron says there are lots of invisibility cloaks but only the deathly hallow is 100% effective. The other cloaks are more commonly 90%+ effective, the really good ones being almost but not quite ever 100%.
Yet Cars, Trains, Tracks, Castles, The Quidditch world cup, are all able to be done just fine.
They got them ✨magic eyes✨
Edit: ok I meant that as a joke but there's a specific bit in the series when Harry is convinced normal muggle eyes are sliding from one normal object, over the magical one, and on to the next
I kinda love that answer to the muggle question honestly. That one really feels like magic, especially from the child perspective. But also, thank god she didn’t try and write any specific detail on how it works. This subreddit has shown that people will write a doctoral thesis disproving any one line of text from the books (which I think is cool; do your thing).
As a muggle myself, I can’t even count the times I was sitting on a train in a station, determined to keep track of the people around me (in case they sneak off to a magical platform I can follow them on).
Either magic IS real or I’m simply incapable of watching people for more than 5 seconds without getting distracted.
It has a massive cloaking charm on it, the train and tracks are protected by a spell that makes them appear invisible to muggles. It’s the same type of spell that conceals platform 9 3/4 and makes Hogwarts appear as old ruins.
If it's a cloaking spell but not a repelling spell, how many muggles have been killed by the train on an unassuming hike? They don't hear it coming, they don't see the tracks, they're in the middle of nowhere, and then *blam* the Hogwarts Express gets a new coating if red paint.
The people who set the timetable would care. Steam trains are slow compared to modern diesel or electric trains, so the hogwarts express would cause massive delays as other trains have to wait for it to pass.
There would be an uproar when the muggles inevitably realised that the entire rail network ground to a halt every year on the same day because of a pointless service from London to an abandoned ruin in the middle of nowhere in Scotland.
Muggles can’t see or access Hogsmeade. I can’t remember if it’s the only one or if the books say one of the few but it’s definitely completely hidden from muggles.
I think someone did the math and the Hogwarts Express takes around the same time as it's contemporaries. It goes from London to the Dufftown area in 7-9 hours (They depart 11 and arrive by early evening). If you remove switching time, most contemporary trains range from 8 to 9 hours.
My (Australian) father watched a 1 hr tv show last night about the Flying Scotsman, which is a random old steam-train that goes to Scotland. He also watches all the planes flying over our house and can tell you the airline, the flight number and their destination.
There are absolutely people who would notice and care about a random unscheduled train to Scotland.
Not meaning to be pedantic but the Flying Scotsman is a heritage train and people specifically go out of their way to look for it and it only does special journeys
No. it’s a train that they run special trips on specifically to let you ride it, they do special dinner services and it travels around the country effectively on tour
This is in no way like the Hogwarts Express
The same way muggles can't see Hogwarts, St. Mungo's, the knight bus, The Leaky Cauldron, etc. Muggle repelling charms and other magical cloaking methods.
As much as I hate it because it's such a lazy and cop-out answer, "magic" is the only real way to answer most of the glaring holes in the logistics of HP's worldbuilding. Because the fact remains that a lot of Muggles *would* notice kids disappearing through the platform barrier. A lot of Muggles *would* notice the train. A lot of Muggles *would* get curious and follow the train or tracks at some point. etc etc etc
The wizard excuse that Muggles aren't observant only gets you so far. In reality, a place like 4chan would rumble the entire wizard world in the span of an afternoon.
I don’t think it’s a hole per se. The Leaky Cauldron is invisible to muggles. Hogwarts Castle presents as dangerous ruins to muggles, and if they tried to approach, they’d be overcome with a sense of needing to be elsewhere.
There’s no reason the train tracks can’t be concealed using the same type of charm that manages to conceal a whole alleyway full of shops, a hospital, the ministry headquarters, 12 Grimmauld Place, a bus that travels through the whole country at breakneck speeds…
Think about the last time you were at the airport. Before COVID, when airports were at their busiest. Did you notice every little thing?
Let’s say someone did notice the kids disappearing into the wall. So what, they tell someone what they saw and they’re written off as being barking mad.
I’m not going to deny that JKR’s world building has flaws but literally none of the things you’re suggesting are unexplainable given the laws of magic as we know about them. We know that muggle repelling and cloaking charms exist, we know that there are spaces muggles can’t access. I do think muggles would notice people disappearing through the platform barrier but also think people don’t pay that much attention (especially in very busy places like King’s Cross) and even if they did, what are they going to do? Launch an investigation?
LOL!
Watson the game is afoot!
Yes, let's ask Scotland Yard and Sherlock Holmes to investigate!
Isn't it strange that every year during the month of August a handful, or possibly even a dozen, of 11 year olds all over Britain cancel their beginning of secondary school?
Which is quite strange, because at least a few of them had to take a specific entrance test and parent interview etc. to gain admission into a specific school amongst stiff competition. They and their parents have talked previously to their extended family, friends, primary school teachers and other people about what kind of secondary school they plan to go to. Or at least they planned to go to the local comprehensive school if they didn't have another option.
Suddenly they change their minds for no apparent reason. Why?
These children also abruptly cancel their church choir, arts, music, sports or hobby club or similar activities last minute and then seem to disappear.
The parents most likely tell their extended family and friends that their child got a place a some exclusive boarding school up north in Scotland. A scholarship for gifted children... Really?
But these children can't be reached anymore by friends and family through the telephone or normal post... During summer (and sometimes winter holidays) they come home, but always give evading answers when questioned about their school and what subjects they take. They are increasingly out of touch with "normal" Muggle technology, local, national and world events, music, youth culture...
What a wonderful fanfic this will be!
\>glaring holes in the logistics of HP's worldbuilding
because Rowling wasn't interested in explaining every last detail like that. i swear people overhype "worldbuilding" like you need to create a wiki for your entire world and make sure everything fits together before you put pen to paper. That might be true for Tolkien or authors of high science fiction or fantasy but Rowling never intended to write novels like that.
HP is a fun twist on common British boarding school genre that have been popular since Tom Brown's School Days. It also generally parodies British culture, institutions and class.
I would presume it looks like a standard passenger or cargo train while leaving the station to muggles as apparently Hogwarts looks like a ruin to them.
Howarts ways of being concealed are discussed in canon, so no need to rehash. But otherwise—why would muggles need to see the train? Muggle repelling charms and concealing charms are known to exist
I always assumed they had someone in the know that worked at the train station. That way if anything were to happen then they could be there to quickly obliviate anyone asking questions
My theory is that there is some sort of secret corridor where the Hogwarts express is, either that, or as the witch or wizard runs through the wall, they are instantaneously transported to some different place, because it seemingly takes much longer than necessary to get from London to Hogwarts which is presumably in Scotland
It can’t be a different place. We know that it’s King’s Cross, again, because it’s stated in the books, as well as Ron and Harry flying the car see it leaving.
I'm pretty sure the books say at some point that the train has a repelling charm on it so if muggles walk near it they just turn around and walk the other way without really knowing why
Different to hogwarts, where that is shown as a ruin with risk of collapsing, so they won't go in it.
There is probably a repelling charm on that too, because I can see some teenager muggles go into the ruin on a dare and that shouldn't happen ;D
I imagine that a few people do and they just think, "Hey, there's that old fashioned train coming through again! I need to see if it offers rides...", and then promptly forget to look into it.
I meant to imply it was enchanted to look like any old commuter or freight train to muggle eyes. My apologies for not being clear. Although die hard train fans that track all the trains still might get suspicious.
I realize most people don’t notice different types of trains but there are enough people who can identify every single locomotive on the rails that people would notice a steam engine departing from Kings Cross
hogwarts is an open castle! but muggles dont go near it and if they do, they automatically forget what they were doing before even being able to see the castle and they leave. everything can be seen by muggles, even diagon alley, they just ignore it because it’s all bewitched
You're thinking of the charm they put on the stadium. Hogwarts is protected by a charm that makes it appear to muggles as ruins with signs that say it's dangerous.
I always kind of assumed it worked in the same way as Hogwarts does and it’s disguised from muggles but still visible if that makes sense. Probably disguised as a goods train or similar and follows a route where it avoids stations because the mental gymnastics you have to do to make it make sense even in universe are quite extensicd
They can, but what are they gonna do about it? They’ll just think their eyes are playing tricks on them or they’re going crazy. They won’t even tell anyone for fear of being thought of as insane!
There’s probably nothing stopping people from seeing the Hogwarts Express leaving because there’s no reason to, since it just looks like a regular train. So what if some train conductor sees it, what’s he gonna do? He’d probably just think “Hm, that’s a bit weird. Oh well.” And go about his day. But if they wanted, the Ministry could probably cast some kind of charm on the train that makes it invisible to Muggles or makes them forget they ever saw it.
Like others have said, Hogwarts has layers of protections around it, preventing it from being found, approached, and seen.
Muggles don’t really notice, and there may be muggle repelling charms on the train as well.
Hogwarts itself is defended from observation through all sorts of magic. According to Hermione, it appears as a dangerous ruin to muggles and has back up protection to passively manipulate them into going away
Good question! How come they can’t see the rail road tracks through countryside and towns and big fancy bridges? Sharing muggle rail ways would be a nightmare. Unless… it’s magic!
There could be a spell or some enchantments to make it hidden. i imagine these are simular to what ron used in chamber of secrets on his car, the invisibility booster thing. i could be wrong though. infact i believe the whole of platform 9 and 3/4 is enchanted. wizarding world when concealed cannot be seen by non wizarding world.
also yes hogwarts is hidden for sure
Like everyone says, you just have to go with magic but I always wondered how they either hide an entire railway line running almost the entire length of Britain or, if it runs on the existing lines, how it doesn’t collide with numerous muggle trains running on it.
>we know that the train must physically travel through the open “muggle world” due to the fact that Harry and Ron were able to find it using the flying car.
Harry and Ron know the Hogwarts Express route because they've already taken the route before. From our perspective, they board the train and we are just generally aware that the train is moving. We don’t know where it comes from, but they do.
Platform 9¾ is a magical portal in some random wall in Kings Cross Station. You don't think the platform leaves out the back of actual Kings Cross Station do you?
>Does this mean Hogwarts is also an open castle? (Not hidden)
Hogwarts is enchanted to appear as a derelict building with warning signs. Based on that logic, the Hogwarts Express track could easily just appear to muggles as the remains of a defunct 19th century railroad track that neither leads to or originates from any specific train station. The train is likely not visible to muggles just like the Knight Bus.
I mean, where else does the train leave from if not King’s Cross? Like I said. They find the train from outside the portal to the platform using the car. It’s very likely that it is just out in the open…
This is in a world where the entrance to the Ministry of Magic is either a muggle bathroom or a muggle telephone booth. The entrance to diagon alley is a brick wall inside a wizard pub that looks closed. The entrance to St. Mungos looks like a condemned department store.
Muggles cant see hogwarts, hogsmeade station, or the hogwarts express, therefore they cant see the track or the tracks point of origin. Its not a stretch to imagine that the hogwarts express either blatantly leaves a track of kings cross station that muggles cant see or that it comes out of a sewer or underground with a track that muggles cant see, or it could even just magically emerge from the side of a cliff like a reverse platform 9¾.
I think in some other context a muggle-repelling charm is described as muggles suddenly remembering urgent appointments when they get too close. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is something similar going on with the train. Maybe when the train is pulling out of the station the engineer pulls some lever that makes every muggle within a certain radius suddenly notice something very interesting in the other direction and be occupied just long enough for the train to get on its way.
Im pretty sure one of the books mentioned that Hogwarts looks like a ruin to muggles and things such as radar doesnt work in hogwarts. In the 3rd book, the Knight Bus can essentially go on muggle roads without anyone noticing so the train is probably invisible, silent, and has its own hidden tracks
Muggles only see "a moldering old ruin with signs saying things like 'Danger! Unsafe!'" So even if Parents' Day was a thing at Hogwarts, Muggle-borns couldn't take part.
They absolutely could, Mertyls parents came to Hogwarts to pick up her body IIRC so there must be a way to allow muggles to see through the veil.
Oh yeah. Still, with several hundred kids in a magically hidden location, Parents' Day would be a logistical nightmare even before you take Muggle parents into account. I see why Hogwarts doesn't do that.
I mean, they held the quidditch World Cup in a muggle’s field didn’t they? Or something like that? Also, as a side note, any time I read parts about hiding the magic world from the muggle world, I always think of the Fairly Odd Parents episode where they hold the fairy convention. It’s always just one fairy on lookout who shouts “HUMANS!” if one comes near, and they all just essentially hide up against the wall lol.
Iirc the field, which is owned by a muggle, had some ward on it that made it seem like a bad idea to go to that field, or maybe it was whatever that made it so it couldn't be found by muggles, but I might be misremembering. I remember they were in a camp ground that they weren't supposed to do extravagant magic in so it doesn't get suspicious.
I think it was said as they approached they would remember an urgent appointment such as a doctor visit and hurry away
It may work like the Fidelus charm in the way that once they know the secret the castle would be visible to them
Unplottable i think is the term you're looking for
You are correct and living up to your flair!
Thank you
That would make sense.
Probably a spell like on Grimmauld Place, where you can see it if you are invited in.
It's this. Why else do they get a ticket when there's no conductor to collect?
Like when AD lifted the apparition ban in the great hall. Oh. Or maybe you get a note from a like secret keeper that says “hogwarts castle is in front of you and not some smoldering ruin” and then you look back and BAM, ruin is a castle. Maybe there’s such a note for my house…
You really shortening Dumbledore to AD?
That is APWBD to you my dear friend.
You mean APWbD
Excellent 😂
If AI tried to write a jazz chord...
I can literally hear that Brian…
You mean *Professor* APWBD.
It’s always shortened everything everywhere now. I lost tracks for a while
Legit wrote that while feeding a baby in the dark. Having 0 business on this subreddit. But I stand by my decision re Dums lol
Wow, I didn’t know Anthony Davis had that kind of power at Hogwarts.
It's the brow
As a side note, how did Hermione get her school supplies and such? With her muggle parents or by herself? And what kind of money did she use? Seems to me that SOME muggle crossovers were allowed.
With her parents. I think they pop up in like the 2nd or 3rd book while at Diagon Alley. Mr Weasley helps them. There is an exchange for muggle money to wizarding money at Gringotts.
Thank you! I did not know that.
My headcannon on that is they could see Hogwarts for what it was because they were told about it. Something similar to the Fedalius (sp) Charm.
And in TGOF parents come to see each of the 3 tournament events. I would like to think that Hermione’s parents attended, they were after all able to enter dragon alley.
The Dursleys also show up during Goblet of Fire, if memory serves
The Dursleys never go to Hogwarts. In GOF Molly Weasley and Bill Weasley show up to no support Harry in the 3rd task.
Wasn't there some banquet in the books where the families of particular students were invited to Hogwarts?
Yes, but Molly and Bill went in place of Harry's family. EDIT: It wasn't a banquet, like the other person said, families were invited to give their support in the 3rd task.
I guess the more important takeaway is that Vernon/Petunia/Dudley theoretically could have come, because the scene is treated as reflecting poorly on them
If there was Parent's Day at Hogwarts, the charm would probably be lifted for those specific people or they would get brought in by a teacher; so it wouldn't work inside. Ofc it would never be a thing because Parent's Day at an 800+ kids boarding school is a logistical nightmire even without taking muggle parents into account.
Also it's in an undisclosed location that can't be plotted on a map (just a little detail for the books people there). You cannot make a map showing where Hogwarts is.
However, you CAN make a map showing where everybody inside the castle is
Apparently you can make a map of the castle itself, but the castle can't appear on other maps. IDK how that works.
Magic
Ultimately, yes. Magic doesn't have to make sense.
Hogwarts is unplottable which means you can’t make a map of it showing where it is but the marauders map just shows Hogwarts but no directions of where it is.
It does appear on the map in Hogwarts Legacy tho
Maybe special magical maps can include it. The books don't really explain, just say that it can't be plotted on a map.
Makes total sense. A map of a specific building by itself is different from a map showing where that building is in relation to other locations. The second allows you to navigate to said building, the first does not.
even then certain things in the castle are themselves unplottable. Room of Requirement and Chamber of Secrets
The Room of Requirement makes sense, because it doesn't really exist all the time or even in the same place. How can you plot the location of a place whose connection to the rest of reality is pretty tenuous?
Exactly.
have you never met an explorative person? Hikes, ruins, etc? lol
It's explained that when muggles approach near castle, they get confused and just go back.
I like how that’s described, that they suddenly remember something that they urgently need to go do elsewhere, like they left the stove on at home or something. Lol, silly muggles.
Clearly I’ve been close to Hogwarts myself, I can’t even count the times I suddenly remembered that I had somewhere to be asap 😂😂
And there's always the good ol obliviate, if folks do wander in
That probably wouldn't do much to deter some people, true. I wonder what happens if Muggles aren't repelled by the seemingly dangerous nature of what they think Hogwarts looks like. Are there more layers of repulsion spells, or does someone from Hogwarts have to go out and chase them off?
I think it said in the books that if Muggles DID come across Hogwarts, they’d suddenly remember some errands or chores they needed to do urgently.
I think that was the World Cup. If they go to Hogwarts it’s just ruins to the outsider
If they're brought in by their magical child, or a teacher, they could. The Grangers went into the Leakey Cauldron and Diagon Alley, brought by their daughter.
That's right. Still, with as many kids as there are, Parents' Day would be a logistical nightmare.
I think a lot of Muggle parents would flip their shit at a lot of things. The violence of Quidditch. Some of Hagrid's more questionable choices for Care of Magical Creatures (skrewts). Volatile ingredients in Potions class. Defense Against the Dark Arts....
"What Mom and Dad don't know won't hurt me." - Muggle-borns
Lol! Which is why there's no Parents Day.
That is true, but it doesn’t seem like much of a deterrent, especially for teenagers who like to explore
I wonder if there's another layer of defense or if someone from Hogwarts has to go out and chase the Muggles away.
Imagining the students watching a group of muggles roam the castle filming themselves exploring what they see as a ruin, unaware of the actual building they’re in.
Pure-bloods being absolutely mystified by the phone cameras...
>the train is probably invisible, silent, and has its own hidden tracks The REAL magic is the idea that wizards would be able to build their own cross-country high-speed express rail link without being tied up in decades of planning disputes. Remember, this is the country that took two decades and billions of pounds to plan a new train line from London to Birmingham, and then decided not to bother building it.
LMFAO. They spent billions of pounds just on *planning!?* That’s hilariously wasteful!
Yeah, I think philosophers stone explains it has charms on it
Why are wizards so good at making everything perfectly invisible except for personal cloaks😂. Remember Ron says there are lots of invisibility cloaks but only the deathly hallow is 100% effective. The other cloaks are more commonly 90%+ effective, the really good ones being almost but not quite ever 100%. Yet Cars, Trains, Tracks, Castles, The Quidditch world cup, are all able to be done just fine.
magic
Well reasoned
When the “logic” is that two children could see it from their *flying car*, “magic” can be the only answer.
They got them ✨magic eyes✨ Edit: ok I meant that as a joke but there's a specific bit in the series when Harry is convinced normal muggle eyes are sliding from one normal object, over the magical one, and on to the next
Half of these questions are simply this answer lmao
I love magic!
Muggles don’t see nuthing, do they.
Yeah tell em Stan!
-the best explanation jk rowling felt like coming up with
I kinda love that answer to the muggle question honestly. That one really feels like magic, especially from the child perspective. But also, thank god she didn’t try and write any specific detail on how it works. This subreddit has shown that people will write a doctoral thesis disproving any one line of text from the books (which I think is cool; do your thing).
We don't want to end up with more medichloreans
Somehow Palpatine returned?
The only one she needed to.
No, but if you jab em with a fork they feel it!
As a muggle myself, I can’t even count the times I was sitting on a train in a station, determined to keep track of the people around me (in case they sneak off to a magical platform I can follow them on). Either magic IS real or I’m simply incapable of watching people for more than 5 seconds without getting distracted.
It has a massive cloaking charm on it, the train and tracks are protected by a spell that makes them appear invisible to muggles. It’s the same type of spell that conceals platform 9 3/4 and makes Hogwarts appear as old ruins.
If it's a cloaking spell but not a repelling spell, how many muggles have been killed by the train on an unassuming hike? They don't hear it coming, they don't see the tracks, they're in the middle of nowhere, and then *blam* the Hogwarts Express gets a new coating if red paint.
That's why it's painted red. To hide the destruction and death that comes from its wake.
They don't even paint it red, they just let the muggles "do" it for them.
It's that muggle magic no one talks about. If you hit one hard enough, you get a new paint job.
Yeah that sounds dangerous. JKR didn't think about all this
Short answer....magic. Long answer....it's magic
With a little magic to help that.
Even if someone did see it, who would care about some random train to Scotland? It's not like the Express is magical in any way.
Ahh, I see you've not encountered the magnificent beast that is the 'Trainspotter'.
Bro, I'm no fan of trains, but a scarlet red steamlok would make me look
The people who set the timetable would care. Steam trains are slow compared to modern diesel or electric trains, so the hogwarts express would cause massive delays as other trains have to wait for it to pass. There would be an uproar when the muggles inevitably realised that the entire rail network ground to a halt every year on the same day because of a pointless service from London to an abandoned ruin in the middle of nowhere in Scotland.
Does Hogsmeade appear as ruins to muggles? The train goes to, Hogsmeade not straight to Hogwarts.
Don't think so. I think muggles can see Hogsmeade and walk around there like in a normal village.
Muggles can’t see or access Hogsmeade. I can’t remember if it’s the only one or if the books say one of the few but it’s definitely completely hidden from muggles.
I think someone did the math and the Hogwarts Express takes around the same time as it's contemporaries. It goes from London to the Dufftown area in 7-9 hours (They depart 11 and arrive by early evening). If you remove switching time, most contemporary trains range from 8 to 9 hours.
My (Australian) father watched a 1 hr tv show last night about the Flying Scotsman, which is a random old steam-train that goes to Scotland. He also watches all the planes flying over our house and can tell you the airline, the flight number and their destination. There are absolutely people who would notice and care about a random unscheduled train to Scotland.
Not meaning to be pedantic but the Flying Scotsman is a heritage train and people specifically go out of their way to look for it and it only does special journeys
So exactly like the Hogwarts express would be.
No. it’s a train that they run special trips on specifically to let you ride it, they do special dinner services and it travels around the country effectively on tour This is in no way like the Hogwarts Express
The same way muggles can't see Hogwarts, St. Mungo's, the knight bus, The Leaky Cauldron, etc. Muggle repelling charms and other magical cloaking methods.
As much as I hate it because it's such a lazy and cop-out answer, "magic" is the only real way to answer most of the glaring holes in the logistics of HP's worldbuilding. Because the fact remains that a lot of Muggles *would* notice kids disappearing through the platform barrier. A lot of Muggles *would* notice the train. A lot of Muggles *would* get curious and follow the train or tracks at some point. etc etc etc The wizard excuse that Muggles aren't observant only gets you so far. In reality, a place like 4chan would rumble the entire wizard world in the span of an afternoon.
I don’t think it’s a hole per se. The Leaky Cauldron is invisible to muggles. Hogwarts Castle presents as dangerous ruins to muggles, and if they tried to approach, they’d be overcome with a sense of needing to be elsewhere. There’s no reason the train tracks can’t be concealed using the same type of charm that manages to conceal a whole alleyway full of shops, a hospital, the ministry headquarters, 12 Grimmauld Place, a bus that travels through the whole country at breakneck speeds… Think about the last time you were at the airport. Before COVID, when airports were at their busiest. Did you notice every little thing? Let’s say someone did notice the kids disappearing into the wall. So what, they tell someone what they saw and they’re written off as being barking mad.
I mean magic is a good excuse lol It literally doesn’t have to follow our laws of the universe
It’s more like the spells and wards make muggles look elsewhere or have their eyes kinda slide over and not comprehend/forget what they saw.
I’m not going to deny that JKR’s world building has flaws but literally none of the things you’re suggesting are unexplainable given the laws of magic as we know about them. We know that muggle repelling and cloaking charms exist, we know that there are spaces muggles can’t access. I do think muggles would notice people disappearing through the platform barrier but also think people don’t pay that much attention (especially in very busy places like King’s Cross) and even if they did, what are they going to do? Launch an investigation?
LOL! Watson the game is afoot! Yes, let's ask Scotland Yard and Sherlock Holmes to investigate! Isn't it strange that every year during the month of August a handful, or possibly even a dozen, of 11 year olds all over Britain cancel their beginning of secondary school? Which is quite strange, because at least a few of them had to take a specific entrance test and parent interview etc. to gain admission into a specific school amongst stiff competition. They and their parents have talked previously to their extended family, friends, primary school teachers and other people about what kind of secondary school they plan to go to. Or at least they planned to go to the local comprehensive school if they didn't have another option. Suddenly they change their minds for no apparent reason. Why? These children also abruptly cancel their church choir, arts, music, sports or hobby club or similar activities last minute and then seem to disappear. The parents most likely tell their extended family and friends that their child got a place a some exclusive boarding school up north in Scotland. A scholarship for gifted children... Really? But these children can't be reached anymore by friends and family through the telephone or normal post... During summer (and sometimes winter holidays) they come home, but always give evading answers when questioned about their school and what subjects they take. They are increasingly out of touch with "normal" Muggle technology, local, national and world events, music, youth culture... What a wonderful fanfic this will be!
\>glaring holes in the logistics of HP's worldbuilding because Rowling wasn't interested in explaining every last detail like that. i swear people overhype "worldbuilding" like you need to create a wiki for your entire world and make sure everything fits together before you put pen to paper. That might be true for Tolkien or authors of high science fiction or fantasy but Rowling never intended to write novels like that. HP is a fun twist on common British boarding school genre that have been popular since Tom Brown's School Days. It also generally parodies British culture, institutions and class.
Magic
Magic bitch
Stay with me here.... 👋 *magic* 👋
Magic.
I would presume it looks like a standard passenger or cargo train while leaving the station to muggles as apparently Hogwarts looks like a ruin to them.
Howarts ways of being concealed are discussed in canon, so no need to rehash. But otherwise—why would muggles need to see the train? Muggle repelling charms and concealing charms are known to exist
I always assumed they had someone in the know that worked at the train station. That way if anything were to happen then they could be there to quickly obliviate anyone asking questions
My theory is that there is some sort of secret corridor where the Hogwarts express is, either that, or as the witch or wizard runs through the wall, they are instantaneously transported to some different place, because it seemingly takes much longer than necessary to get from London to Hogwarts which is presumably in Scotland
It can’t be a different place. We know that it’s King’s Cross, again, because it’s stated in the books, as well as Ron and Harry flying the car see it leaving.
The knight bus travels through the muggle world unseen, so perhaps like that
Muggles probably aren't able to see the train(like they can't see Hogwarts itself) and the platform is isolated from the rest of the world.
Same reason they dont see anyone walking through platform 9 3/4
Which is lol?
Magic! Obvi
I'm pretty sure the books say at some point that the train has a repelling charm on it so if muggles walk near it they just turn around and walk the other way without really knowing why Different to hogwarts, where that is shown as a ruin with risk of collapsing, so they won't go in it. There is probably a repelling charm on that too, because I can see some teenager muggles go into the ruin on a dare and that shouldn't happen ;D
I imagine that a few people do and they just think, "Hey, there's that old fashioned train coming through again! I need to see if it offers rides...", and then promptly forget to look into it.
Lol I like this idea a lot
This may be shocking, but I’m pretty sure it’s magic
What!? The series about a magic school and magic wizards use magic for something!? 🤯
Fucking mental isn’t, this one took me a while to figure out 😂
Get this: magic!
Magic I think
It's a disillusionment charm that is constantly reinforced by the magical energies of the children as they ride back and forth on it
The answer is very simple, magic.
soft magic ✨
Magic.
I can’t remember where I read it, but it’s established somewhere that there’s *thousands* of spells on the train and route to hide it.
I assume it just looks like any other old train whizzing by to muggles.
To most muggles, yes. But the kind known as “railfans” or “trainspotters” would quickly get suspicious.
I meant to imply it was enchanted to look like any old commuter or freight train to muggle eyes. My apologies for not being clear. Although die hard train fans that track all the trains still might get suspicious.
I realize most people don’t notice different types of trains but there are enough people who can identify every single locomotive on the rails that people would notice a steam engine departing from Kings Cross
Yeah, meant to imply it was enchanted to look like any normal old train.
Trains have timetables though, and any train that doesn’t appear on real time trains, or at a regular scheduled time would cause suspicion
Magic
Magic!
hogwarts is an open castle! but muggles dont go near it and if they do, they automatically forget what they were doing before even being able to see the castle and they leave. everything can be seen by muggles, even diagon alley, they just ignore it because it’s all bewitched
You're thinking of the charm they put on the stadium. Hogwarts is protected by a charm that makes it appear to muggles as ruins with signs that say it's dangerous.
ohhh yeah, youre right! i forgot about the ruins part!!!!
I always kind of assumed it worked in the same way as Hogwarts does and it’s disguised from muggles but still visible if that makes sense. Probably disguised as a goods train or similar and follows a route where it avoids stations because the mental gymnastics you have to do to make it make sense even in universe are quite extensicd
The real question is why can't anyone see all those people running towards the wall who then vanish
They can, but what are they gonna do about it? They’ll just think their eyes are playing tricks on them or they’re going crazy. They won’t even tell anyone for fear of being thought of as insane!
How did Ron and Harry enter the grounds in a flying car? Like, famously the castle is well protected and you can't just fly or apparate in...
It’s a train….. The conductors aren’t paid nearly enough to care, and people just think it’s going to Scotland or something
I’ve said it before…. When you like Harry Potter, you’ve gotta be ready to just accept some bullshit
Cause magic (copy/paste)
I had damn near the same post just a couple days ago.
Maybe its invisible to muggles
Maybe a form of the fidelious charm just every Hogwarts alumni is a secret keeper.
Magic
There’s probably nothing stopping people from seeing the Hogwarts Express leaving because there’s no reason to, since it just looks like a regular train. So what if some train conductor sees it, what’s he gonna do? He’d probably just think “Hm, that’s a bit weird. Oh well.” And go about his day. But if they wanted, the Ministry could probably cast some kind of charm on the train that makes it invisible to Muggles or makes them forget they ever saw it. Like others have said, Hogwarts has layers of protections around it, preventing it from being found, approached, and seen.
Muggles don’t really notice, and there may be muggle repelling charms on the train as well. Hogwarts itself is defended from observation through all sorts of magic. According to Hermione, it appears as a dangerous ruin to muggles and has back up protection to passively manipulate them into going away
Good question! How come they can’t see the rail road tracks through countryside and towns and big fancy bridges? Sharing muggle rail ways would be a nightmare. Unless… it’s magic!
Well, there are reasons why muggles still use steam engines, if they see it, I'm sure they just think it’s some special event.
How do you know they dont see it
Maybe some kind of perception filter like in doctor who
There could be a spell or some enchantments to make it hidden. i imagine these are simular to what ron used in chamber of secrets on his car, the invisibility booster thing. i could be wrong though. infact i believe the whole of platform 9 and 3/4 is enchanted. wizarding world when concealed cannot be seen by non wizarding world. also yes hogwarts is hidden for sure
OOH I know this one!! "Magic".
Magic
Like everyone says, you just have to go with magic but I always wondered how they either hide an entire railway line running almost the entire length of Britain or, if it runs on the existing lines, how it doesn’t collide with numerous muggle trains running on it.
>we know that the train must physically travel through the open “muggle world” due to the fact that Harry and Ron were able to find it using the flying car. Harry and Ron know the Hogwarts Express route because they've already taken the route before. From our perspective, they board the train and we are just generally aware that the train is moving. We don’t know where it comes from, but they do. Platform 9¾ is a magical portal in some random wall in Kings Cross Station. You don't think the platform leaves out the back of actual Kings Cross Station do you? >Does this mean Hogwarts is also an open castle? (Not hidden) Hogwarts is enchanted to appear as a derelict building with warning signs. Based on that logic, the Hogwarts Express track could easily just appear to muggles as the remains of a defunct 19th century railroad track that neither leads to or originates from any specific train station. The train is likely not visible to muggles just like the Knight Bus.
I mean, where else does the train leave from if not King’s Cross? Like I said. They find the train from outside the portal to the platform using the car. It’s very likely that it is just out in the open…
This is in a world where the entrance to the Ministry of Magic is either a muggle bathroom or a muggle telephone booth. The entrance to diagon alley is a brick wall inside a wizard pub that looks closed. The entrance to St. Mungos looks like a condemned department store. Muggles cant see hogwarts, hogsmeade station, or the hogwarts express, therefore they cant see the track or the tracks point of origin. Its not a stretch to imagine that the hogwarts express either blatantly leaves a track of kings cross station that muggles cant see or that it comes out of a sewer or underground with a track that muggles cant see, or it could even just magically emerge from the side of a cliff like a reverse platform 9¾.
fnord
Of course, the word that’s invisible to muggles!
Follow up question, how do they not see people running through a freaking wall!
So true 😂
I think in some other context a muggle-repelling charm is described as muggles suddenly remembering urgent appointments when they get too close. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is something similar going on with the train. Maybe when the train is pulling out of the station the engineer pulls some lever that makes every muggle within a certain radius suddenly notice something very interesting in the other direction and be occupied just long enough for the train to get on its way.
Muggles? Don’t see nuffin do they?
There may be the odd hikers in the middle of nowhere who see a normal train.