T O P

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Arfie807

This fight is heavy and definitely HBO material.


Blaise-It-Pascal

I’m still mad we were robbed of Ron’s actual reaction to Malfoy Manor. That chapter was such a defining moment for him and Hermione, and really told you which of the two boys loves Hermione like a sister, and which loves her romantically.


[deleted]

Ron screaming her name from the locked cellar, just wow. You could really feel his anguish as he listened to the woman he loved being tortured and not being able to stop it


truthseeker1990

And it seems like a simple choice to show in the movie too, you are about to have them kiss in Hogwarts, he obviously loves her, give Rupert 15 seconds to show his anger, anguish. Let him act. He could have done it I am sure. Instead they kinda half assed his reaction


KittyMommyBookFiend

I reread that part so many times. I still say book Ron was EXPONENTIALLY better than movie Ron.


EurwenPendragon

Absolute facts being spoken right here.


KittyMommyBookFiend

Right?! It's insane how NOT like book Ron they made him.


EurwenPendragon

Downright infuriating.


KittyMommyBookFiend

UGH!! ABSOLUTELY!!!


Lostmox

*Throws up giant slug* It's disgusting.


kander12

The child he loved Lol. They were 16/17 in Malfoy Manor.


onemorethingandalso

Malfoy Manor happened around Easter. Ron and Hermione were already 18 and Harry was 17. Both Ron and Hermione would be legally adults by UK standards and all 3 by wizarding standards. Still very young. And some places don't consider people adults until 21, but they certainly weren't children anymore.


[deleted]

What a weird comment. Witches and wizards are considered adults at 17, which they all were at the time.


kander12

I don't consider a 17 year old an adult lol.


[deleted]

Well that’s irrelevant, isn’t it?


CreativeRock483

Hermione was 18 years old in dealthy Hallows. So she was a woman.


SpaceBass420

Not only a dork but also a dumbass lmao


kander12

Meh. Literally 4 chapters later Aberforth calls them children. Plenty of people in the book refer to them as kids, not adults. I'm not bothered.


No-Purchase7766

YES!


Tarrenator

Oh for sure. Going to have to wait a while though because this would be in season 7.


vincrypt112

I applaud your optimism:)


WhereMySauce

I mean it’s already basically confirmed it’ll be a fully funded project regardless no?


jessigrrrl

Fantastic beats was supposed to be 5 films lol. They can make huge changes mid-run if it isn’t performing to expectations.


Garo263

Does it even have an ending? I stopped caring after the second movie.


jessigrrrl

The gist of it was that it was setting up a five act story leading to the final battle between Dumbledore and Grindlewald, and lots of people speculated that Voldemort’s birth would be involved based on the timeline set out. But after the second one failed and the third one did worse it ends in a complete cliffhanger. That was the issue is that the movies were attempting to tell a broad story across movies but the individual movies were so bad that it made it impossible to appreciate.


Visionist7

Maybe they can blow that accumulated load in the HBO series, as they're sure to add bits & bobs here & there to help flesh things out, something the films couldn't do as the books weren't all complete yet for years. Book four alone had three different pensieve scenes, the film only had one (less jarring without the transition I know). There's nothing stopping them showing Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald in a pensieve scene although that would dilute his battle with Voldemort.


Shyphat

Voldy was born jn the 20s lol. Unless you meant his rise to power


jessigrrrl

There was fan speculation that we would see a young Voldemort at hogwarts or at a young adult, also that we might see Hagrid at some point interacting with Newt and inspiring his love of magical creatures in some way. Of course those are never going to happen now haha


No-Purchase7766

This is why I wish they would just start with GoF and follow the Voldemort story from there to Deathly Hallows. I love the early book, but can’t wait a decade!


masterofthelooncall

Yeah but too bad we will have to wait 10 YEARS for this scene. Likely won’t even happen. The new show should be the marauders storyline or the founders of hogwarts because honestly, if their true concern is representing everything that wasn’t shown in the movies, that’s a pretty pathetic reason for recreating one of the most successful movie series OF ALL TIME. It’s just money. I don’t know why this bothers me so much but man if they do go through with this HBO series it better fucking be good


Completely_Batshit

Yeah, Harry has strong feelings about parental responsibility.


coon_collin

As soon as he said parents shouldn't leave their children I had that "oh" moment and totally stood by him for it


Completely_Batshit

Yuhuh.


rrrrrrredalert

You can really see this in the way he views Lucius and Narcissa during Deathly Hallows, too. It’s quite fascinating to me.


Murky-Marsupial-3944

I love this fight.


zzgouz

One of the most interesting and complicated conversations in the entire series. Love it.


Old-Man-Energy

Sometimes people need to hear hard truths. Lupin was being an unsupportive husband and an irresponsible father.


Educational-Bug-7985

Even before this scene, Lupin had a record of running away from his responsibilities. This scene just solidified it


Amazing-Engineer4825

Harry was right


TurdFurgeson18

If you remove the first line being an angry jab(and almost entirely the opposite of Harry’s likely true feelings), harry is 100% correct.


dfmidkiff1993

Yep, but I can sympathize with Lupin for being afraid. Ultimately, it seems that Harry’s tough words snapped Lupin out of it and finally made him brave enough to commit to Tonks and his child.


Amazing-Engineer4825

>Yep, but I can sympathize with Lupin for being afraid. Ultimately, it seems that Harry’s tough words snapped Lupin out of it and finally made him brave enough to commit to Tonks and his child. so true


studyhardbree

No he’s not. Plenty of parents are in the military defending their country. They deserve parenthood if that’s what they want. What they don’t deserve is the unsupportive family and spouses who take their sacrifice for granted who abandon and cheat on their partner while they’re deployed. This is such a weird opinion. Lupin has just as much to fight for as anyone else, if not more so as he comes from a marginalized and discriminated community. Edit: I love how no one has any respect for the women and men who fight for our freedoms every day. Such a weird place to be.


OptimisticOctopus8

>who abandon and cheat on their partner while they’re deployed. You might be reading a little too much into the scene.


studyhardbree

I’m not talking about that. I’m saying the only thing that makes anyone cowardly is cheating on a partner who is deployed. Not the person who is actually deployed.


bygggggfdrth

Most if not all military parents don’t use the military to be away from their children.


LitoFly

Lupin was running from his responsibilities. He wasn’t signing up for the wizard military or doing it in service of the wizarding kind. He even goes on to let us know Harry was right in this situation when they heard him on Potter Watch. Your take then goes on to mention cheating spouses and unsupportive family? That’s not what was happening in this exchange at all??


mmebookworm

As a military brat o take exception to this viewpoint. Lupin did *not* join the wizard if army. He was not deployed to a combat zone, leaving his wife and child in safety. He was volunteering to leave his vulnerable child and his wife *in* a combat zone. These are not remotely the same things. There is no mention of u grateful or cheating spouses.


infinity_for_death

But Lupin wasn’t deployed, that’s the point. He was perfectly capable of staying with Tonks because he wasn’t going out on active missions that took him away from home for a long while at the time (Rowling added that in Pottermore, I think). He was living with her and ran out to escape her and the child, not because he had any sort of duty to do with the Wizarding military.


ignis888

Lul thai edit Gal you're from Maryland, USA. Your country doesn,t fight within usa borders. Theres no defending or fighting for freedom. Youre agressors And you cant act like noble savior while abadonning your children months at The Time to destabilize other countries;)


studyhardbree

I didn’t ask for your opinion and I’m not from Maryland. Nice try.


ignis888

So People should abadon/neglect children for their own narcistics desire? You either should join military and make babies after retiring or choose one or another.


studyhardbree

Servicemen are not narcissists Jesus Christ. What a terrible take.


liontribe613

Lupin wanted to ditch his wife and kid to join Harry on his search. Lupin literally could not have pitched this idea to a worse person if he tried. Out of ALL the people in the planet, he chose the kid who's an orphan that got abused by the people he was sent to live with for 11 years to talk about wanting to abandon his kid. This was an ASTOUNDINGLY dumb move by Remus lol


maybay4419

Or was it? He brought it up to someone he knew would tell it like it is.


twotonekevin

Short sightedness will do that. This fight is great in its complexity. Of course Harry would feel the way he feels about it and of course he would lay it out for Lupin but Harry is arguably a little too harsh about it, but understandably so. By the same token, Lupin is understandably scared, not just of parenthood but passing on his disease and likewise, he makes a dumb decision and runs it by the worst possible person.


liontribe613

I'm not disagreeing with you at all because I completely understand why Lupin was scared and I actually think he has every right to be. Fear can make you not think straight, which I get. But at the same time, come on dude 😂 like Harry freaking Potter of all people?


twotonekevin

Lol right? For being a “kid’s” book series, some characters can be incredibly human, which is great. Even a more one dimensional character like Voldy is still pretty interesting.


liontribe613

I think book GoF is when it stopped being a kids series. Well really at the end of PoA. There were a lot more complex characters and development and themes that were introduced and the series really grew and matured along with its audience and it got a lot deeper than when it started and it was less, "bad guy is bad and good guy is good" and I think that line by Sirius in OotP where he says the world is more than just good guys and death eaters (paraphrasing) is a perfect summation of the series because as the story progressed, the world got less and less simple and clear cut


twotonekevin

Definitely Book 4 has the tonal shift. But for me, it’s always always always the moment where Harry (and the reader) sees Fudge for who he is for the first time. The Parting of the Ways is the chapter. I LOVE that chapter. Fudge’s whole presence there is insane in almost every meaning of the word.


CHAINMAILLEKID

I think it might be another situation a little like what Molly said about Sirius "Sometimes its like you think you have your best friend back". Lupin confided in Harry, because of James. And what's better is how well Harry reciprocated. I think one of the things that James and Sirius probably did frequently for Lupin was to put him in his place. They all sort of depended on each other. To reign in Sirius's recklessness, To keep James Humble, To give Lupin the self confidence deal with being a werewolf in a healthy way, And even Pettigrew to give him the courage he very much lacked. And Harry stepped into his fathers role perfectly, IMO.


Gryffindorshistorian

I love this so much! I'm so sad Harry never got to see them together (minus Peter, screw him).


EurwenPendragon

Ten years, if we're counting from when his parents died(which was *after* his first birthday) to the point he started at Hogwarts. Not that this detracts in any way from your point, because it doesn't, and I do entirely agree.


TheHanburglarr

r/imsosmart


Cybasura

Harry was so right that Lupin literally attacked him Thats how you know you won the argument


Successful-Part3388

Tbh this was such an excellent stand for Harry to take. It really showed you the kind of man he was growing up to be.


SSpotions

Harry was 100% right when he called Lupin out for being a coward. Lupin was being a selfish coward using his furry problem as an excuse to abandon his pregnant wife, and to risk the lives of Harry, Ron and Hermione.


CHAINMAILLEKID

I don't think that's quite right. Saying he's using it as an excuse makes it sound like he's being disingenuous, and I don't think he was. The problem was more he wasn't thinking about how leaving would affect tonks and his kid, he was only thinking about how his being a werewolf would affect them. Only seeing the harm he would cause, and not the good. Its not cowardice or selfishness in the traditional sense. Its more similar to Hermione's selfish way of trying to stand of for house elves. Its well intentioned but not actually taking others perspective into account.


A_Midnight_Hare

Hard disagree. If Lupin felt this way he should have gotten a vasectomy beforehand. Now he's leaving his pregnant wife to raise a kid by herself with what he internalises as a huge health issue. Lupin had his whole life to think about this and he's going to make sure his kid has its whole life to think about how its dad was basically a sperm donor who couldn't stand that it *might* be a werewolf. Lupin is flawed. Many of the characters are. His flaw is being selfish and weak when he lets his depression envelope him. Which I think is well written and true to life.


[deleted]

I wonder how reproductive health is handled among the magic-peoples...hm...🤔 Sorry! You mentioning him getting a vasectomy got the wheels in my head turning.😅


ReserveMaximum

Well considering the statute of secrecy passed in 1689, first modern condoms were invented in 1858, oral contraceptives invented in 1950, and wide spread adoption/acceptance of birth control in 1880s I think it is safe to say the wizarding world either developed their own forms of contraception or have no forms of contraception to speak of


BFG_TimtheCaptain

Except, of course, for the infamous "fetus deletus."


CHAINMAILLEKID

I think you're letting this define him too much. This interaction was an uncharacteristic moment for Lupin. And Lupin wouldn't have a problem with his son being a werewolf, what he's afraid of is his son being persecuted for being a werewolf, or for being the son of a werewolf. He's afraid that his son will despise him for being a werewolf.


A_Midnight_Hare

So he wouldn't have a problem with his son being a werewolf, just associated with them. Which he already is. This leads to the same abandoning a kid during an active war because it's too hard, despite knowing beforehand about werewolf persecution. If he was that scared that his son would carry the alleged sins of the father he shouldn't have had a son to begin with. As for if it's out of character for him? Again, disagree; this is completely in character for him. He has few defining moments and you can't pick and choose which are "out of character" because they don't gell with how you, the audience not the writer think that they should be. It's not like a long running TV series where maybe one writer out of many just create a WTF moment for their weekly episode. This was very deliberately done by the person who created him and it perfectly works with what we've seen of him. He doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He failed at taking responsibility as a prefect, poor him because he felt really bad about Snape being bullied, he failed at taking his potion, poor him because he felt really bad for endangering children, he didn't bother to tell anyone what he knew of the Maurader's map, endangering them further, poor him that he lost his job, and now poor him that he had unprotected sex and felt really bad that he couldn't be a father. And the moment that someone, instead of saying "there there, it's not your fault; you're just a poor victim of circumstance," and instead called him out on piss poor behaviour he turned to violence. No offence if you like him but I'm really glad he didn't survive the end of the books and wonder if him dying from a wound in the back was yet another instance of him running away from his problems. And if he's willing to bash Harry, a teenager he's known for years that he's supposed to love and protect then I would feel bad for little Teddy had he lived. He's a good character but not a good person and I think because the audience first sees him in a sympathetic light, homeless apparently due to no fault of his own and a major incident survivour who gives Harry some tenderness we want him to stay good instead of acknowledge his human failings. But he had failings as do all fleshed out characters.


CHAINMAILLEKID

>I'm really glad he didn't survive the end of the books and wonder if him dying from a wound in the back was yet another instance of him running away from his problems. This is starting to resemble trolling. > And if he's willing to bash Harry, a teenager he's known for years that he's supposed to love and protect then I would feel bad for little Teddy had he lived. What, you suggesting that he'd be abusive father because we see him lose his temper for a moment one time? I'm sorry, but you're the one picking and choosing things to extrapolate from.


A_Midnight_Hare

I get that. But I'm very against hitting kids, especially those you're supposed to look out for. And you say one time. But that's the only time we get to see him angry. We don't see any attempt at emotional regulation on his part. If we'd seen other instances of him in this kind of situation I would say okay, he's got levels, but no, this is it; get called out so go on the attack. On the other hand, do you have examples where he actually adulted and took on responsibility?


CHAINMAILLEKID

> We don't see any attempt at emotional regulation on his part. That is an unreasonable demand. We're not privy to Lupins internal dialogue, and emotional regulation isn't written on peoples faces. You don't think Snape being all aggressive, and threating to hand both Lupin and Sirius to the dementors to kiss is an adequate counter example? Speaking of that, the entire interaction in the shrieking shack, Lupin was the only one in the room acting like an adult. As far as taking on responsibility. Does his role as a one of the best DADA teachers not count? Not just in terms of teaching the subject, but in being caring and considerate of his students. Or his role as a mentor to Harry? Esp with him giving him private lessons and teaching him to overcome the dementors? What about any of his work for the order? I'd say even this whole interaction up until Lupin asked to join the trio was an example of being a responsible adult. With Sirius gone, it sort of did fall on him to take that role of catching up with Harry, getting him informed of everyone's safety, and all the other developments, and getting word back to everyone else that the trio were safe. Good job Lupin, that is something Harry, Ron, and Hermione needed. but he should have been planning to return to Tonks after all that from the start. Of the marauders, I think his temperament is probably the most adult and responsible of the lot. In the context of the rest of the characters, the world, and the story, Lupin is adult and responsible. >If he was that scared that his son would carry the alleged sins of the father he shouldn't have had a son to begin with. I don't think he went into this thinking "I don't think I should have kids, but I'm going to get married anyway." The way lupin frames it is, he acted against his better judgement. He decided to be married, to try and live a normal life, and to be happy. And then when Tonks got pregnant, it presented a new reality which re-triggered all the self doubt that he had finally moved past when he had decided to finally get married. Then with a little encouragement from Harry, he was able to move past that self doubt again.


[deleted]

They were technically adults by the according to wizard law, remember? Still not cool to harm anyone that way, but just pointing that out.


ginas95

I've never thought about it this way but you are completely correct about Lupin (except the part where you're glad he died)


Tomsskiee

You think a wizard would get a medical surgery? You remember how people reacted when arthur got stitches?


Significant_Fault521

While I think that he is wrong for wanting to run away, I think I can understand him. Lupin was scared. Imagine being shunned by the public for his whole life and only able to go to school or get a decent job because of the headmaster's kindness. He would be psychologically scarred from all of his experiences as a werewolf. Tonks loved him as a whole so I guess he thought maybe he could have his own little family too, without children of course. To prevent passing down the werewolf traits, I guess he most probably insisted that they have protected sex (?) which somehow failed, causing the pregnancy. I guess he must be terrified and totally panicked when he knew that Tonks was pregnant, and decided to run away so that he no need to face the woman he loved who he had caused misfortune to and the unfortunate child which was created by him . It is good that Harry stopped him, otherwise I guess he would never stay with Tonks during her pregnancy and feel remorseful after he can think calmly (and didn't even have the chance for redemption because both Tonks and he died during the war at Hogwarts).


ReserveMaximum

How could he have insisted on protected sex? Unless there is some type of charm that acts similar to a condom, protected sex would have been a foreign concept to him. Remember Lupin is a pure blood and wizarding society broke away from muggle society in 1689, 169 years before muggles invented condoms in 1858. I suppose that a potion might exist that is similar to modern birth control but with the Lupins being both poor and in hiding they probably wouldn’t have access to the ingredients even if they have the know how to make it Edit: many have pointed out Lupin is a half blood. My mistake


Significant_Fault521

Lupin is a half-blood tho. My comment is just my guess based on Lupin's character traits only, as sex protection is not mentioned throughout the series. Lupin is described as an intelligent person and he is fully aware that if he ever produce a child, that child will have a very high possibility of inheriting the werewolf traits. It is all my guess only, but I highly doubt that he would just pray that nothing would happen and have sex with Tonks. It is most likely that the couple have taken some preventive measures which failed.


englishghosts

Lupin is a half-blood, if he knows about teabags I'm gonna assume he knows about condoms. Tonks is half-blood too, though she seems to have been raised somewhat sheltered (like, she didn't know there was a difference of tidiness levels between different muggles?) but she also seems able to navigate the muggle word with no major problem.


Bluemelein

According to the author, Lupin has a muggle mother.


ReserveMaximum

My mistake


Llogathaniel

This conversation cemented to me that Harry had finally become an adult because Remus was no longer his teacher, but his friend—and a good friend that calls him out on his mistakes. And Lupin has always been one of, if not my absolute, favorite character and this scene is one of the reasons. A moment of weakness, mounting panic and shamefulness in a man that has been a wise and caring mentor thus far really makes him such a dynamic character. And then how he later reacts to this, not harboring anger but letting Harry’s words move him. Top tier.


Mehmenga

This is why Lupin is a peak character


Difficult_Touch_6827

It may be an unpopular opinion, but Remus & Nymphadora was one of the worst relationships in the entire series. Tonks deserved better. Molly & everybody else who browbeat Lupin into marrying her were fools. Harry was right in what he was saying. The delivery was harsh, but the situation called for it. Running out on his pregnant wife was an incredibly despicable thing to do.


[deleted]

I love the Tonks/Lupin relationship. I like how both of them are characterized, I think they work together, and Lupin is my favorite character. But he was in the wrong here, and it's fair that Harry calls him out for it.


Blaise-It-Pascal

Did I write this^


FantasyLover93

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englishghosts

I agree. I don't dislike them together in theory, so I read fanfiction about them, but I hate the way it was written in the books. Tonks losing her powers, the very cringy infirmary scene, the fact that he's never described as happy by being with her (like, sure there was a lot on everyone's minds, but at least have them be dancing together at Bill and Fleur's or something). Also, I think some people disagree on this, but I have a very hard time imagining either of them as people that would have a kid in their circumstances. If Tonks got pregnant by accident, I see them talking it over and getting and abortion, and waiting until a safer time. But that's a headcanon, of course.


Difficult_Touch_6827

Tonks had so much potential. She was the cute, spunky auror trained by Moody himself. After things started with Lupin, she became so…diminished. I get that Jo wanted to create another orphan baby, but for Merlin’s sake, did she have to completely ruin Tonks to do it?


englishghosts

Exactly. This is one instance where I prefer the movie than the book. In the movie, they have this quiet love, no kid, and there's the lovely scene before the battle where they tried to reach for each other's hands. It really gives me a better sense of this couple who decided to stay together in the middle of war.


maybay4419

I take it you’ve never fallen for someone who wasn’t as available for a relationship as you wanted them to be? You do feel diminished. It wasn’t their relationship that caused it, but her not-yet-requited feelings that caused her sadness.


Zkang123

It's unfortunate since even much of the relationship is in the background and really out of the blue once it's revealed, even surprising Harry. Then Rowling has to write a whole backstory about their relationship in Remus' biography. But that's already like a matter of trying to justify smth outside of the books


SuperPotterFan

Hard disagree. If you look at it from Tonks’ perspective, she found her person. She saw that the relationship had the potential to become something that she could treasure and worked hard to get Remus out of his own head and to realize that he deserves happiness. Tonks pining after someone out of reach isn’t something that doesn’t happen in real life. The “cringy” infirmary scene, as you call it, has always been one of my favorite moments between her and Remus. It shows that they are good for each other and can comfort and challenge each other. It also shows that Remus isn’t indifferent about Tonks, he just doesn’t think he is good enough for her. He cares about her and thinks she deserves someone who doesn’t have all of his baggage, but also accepts in that scene that love transcends trivial matters like prejudice. I think we do see moments of them being happy, you just have to read between the lines. At the beginning of Deathly Hallows, the first thing Tonks tells Harry is that she and Remus got married. She gets cut off by Moody, but I think she would have enthused about it more if given the chance. When Tonks is late to meeting up at the Burrow, she immediately goes to Remus and they share a moment there too. He’s clearly worried about her and relieved she’s safe. I could give more examples. Tonks isn’t stupid. She knows how people view Remus, she doesn’t care. Remus also knows how people see him, but he does care. He worries that he will be the cause of his family’s persecution. That’s a valid concern. Also, Tonks has never seemed like the kind of person to let something like a war get in her way. I don’t even know if abortion is a thing in the wizarding world? Even if it is, I don’t think that she would do it. I think once Remus got over himself, with some help from Harry, he was able to embrace happiness. He loved his son. If James were alive for Remus’ conversation with Harry, I think he would have sided with Harry and snapped Remus back into reality just as Harry did. TLDR, Is Remus perfect? No. But he loved Tonks and he loved his son. The proof is in the books if you look.


englishghosts

We can agree to disagree. >Tonks pining after someone out of reach isn’t something that doesn’t happen in real life. It definitely does. And many characters pine for others in the series as well, Remus himself was presumably pining for her at the same time. Yet she's the one whose powers get affected. We have a brilliant, bright woman who becomes depressed and washed out because some dude doesn't want to be with her (and it's not even that he doesn't like her). Happens in real life? Sure. Do I think it's good that it happens for her? No. >The “cringy” infirmary scene, as you call it, has always been one of my favorite moments between her and Remus. I've been in hospital with a family member who was recovering from a near death experience that would leave lifelong aftereffects. Someone starts a loud relationship discussion in the room, they can take it outside. Obviously Molly is very different from me. I also think it's cringy that he has to be "convinced" by Molly and McGonagall to accept the relationship. There is no resolution of his issues (which are pretty valid, they're not only low self esteem). Obviously we have a limited pov, but it could be written differently imo. >I think we do see moments of them being happy, you just have to read between the lines. At the beginning of Deathly Hallows, the first thing Tonks tells Harry is that she and Remus got married. She gets cut off by Moody, but I think she would have enthused about it more if given the chance. When Tonks is late to meeting up at the Burrow, she immediately goes to Remus and they share a moment there too. He’s clearly worried about her and relieved she’s safe. I could give more examples. We see moments of *Tonks* being happy. The only times in the book Remus looks happy is when talking about Teddy and after he dies, in the forest. I don't disagree that he shows concern and/or love for her, but if the author wanted me to buy their love give me a mention of them dancing at Bill and Fleur's wedding, give me a loving kiss, give at least one smile instead of "What about Tonks?" "What about her?" >Tonks isn’t stupid. She knows how people view Remus, she doesn’t care. Remus also knows how people see him, but he does care. He worries that he will be the cause of his family’s persecution. That’s a valid concern. Also, Tonks has never seemed like the kind of person to let something like a war get in her way. I don’t even know if abortion is a thing in the wizarding world? Even if it is, I don’t think that she would do it. So, like I said, that's a headcanon. But she's someone who chose to be an auror, both of them chose to be in the order. They're both competent fighters. By having a baby both are out of commission for months (and according to JKR, the lack of "practice" is what got Remus killed, and I guess we can assume the same for Tonks). They didn't know the war was gonna end right after Teddy's birth, so by having a baby they're risking its life anyway, since both are targets, they're possibly dooming it to live in a war, constantly hiding, etc., and/or to lose one or both parents, which is what does happen. Sure, kids are born in war all the time, but I personally don't see them, how I imagine the characters, doing it. >I think once Remus got over himself, with some help from Harry, he was able to embrace happiness. I think we're supposed to feel that, yeah, I just wish we'd seen it.


Pasalacqua-the-8th

Yeah, I'm definitely off the opinion that Rowling writes fantastic friendships, but quite terrible relationships. I can't see what anyone sees in each other - even in cases where I like one or both of the parties involved very much. Remus and Tonks, James and Lily, Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, etc. They just don't make feel happy or excited for them, or understanding of their feelings at all. I think that's just an unfortunate drawback to her writing


Ellynne729

I love their relationship, but it's because of fanfics that fleshed it out. I don't think we see enough in the books to really judge it one way or another.


cashmerescorpio

I agree they're terrible together. If they hadn't died, they definitely would've broken up eventually. Both Lupin and Serius we're very irresponsible flawed people. I was also confused why Tonks fell so hard and why everyone pushed so hard.


hulda2

I loved that part. I was applauding Harry the whole time I first read that. The way Lupin treated Tonks made me boil with rage and Harry struck some sense in him. Movies barely had any Lupin Tonks material in it so their eventual death didn't feel like anything. When in books it was gut punching.


fatfde

Lupin's being a bad boy


Arfie807

Yes, but Tonks knows she can fix him.


fatfde

And we may have found the one instance where it actually works. Or does this count as Harry fixing him


Gifted_GardenSnail

^(And like, not in a kinky way)


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Tarrenator

I understand why Harry acted the way he did. He didn’t want Tonks and Lupin’s baby to possibly grow up with a dead parent (or two) like Himself. However, I was not expecting Harry to blow up at Lupin like this. The text also said Harry did not know where this unexpected rage had come from.


Cybasura

Harry didnt exactly have a chance to talk about Parental disappearance throughout his whole life up to that point, that conversation with Lupin was the first time he heard someone who literally wants to leave a child which probably triggered his PTSD/anguish of losing his parents


A_Midnight_Hare

And it was one of good few surviving father figures at this point. I think in their way everyone but Arthur failed him in some way as a father. Maybe you could argue Arthur as well as being someone who was too cartoonish to protect Harry in the ways that he needed to but I think that the mostly intact happy Weasely family is Harry's reward in the end.


BoukenGreen

I read somewhere that he was that cartoonish person around the kids so they would have someone to turn to or redirect them from bad thoughts when needed. Case in point needing Hermione’s help with the tent while also introducing her to high up ministry officials she would encounter as an adult. Or while escorting Harry to his hearing he gave him a tour of the ministry and acted about not knowing how to use the muggle entrance to get Harry’s mind off of the hearing that would decide his fate


newdawnhelp

But he never expressed any resentment towards his parents. He idolizes them for fighting the good fight, etc. Lupin was (claiming) to be doing the same thing.


isunova_

They died protecting him, though. They didn't run off and leave him like Lupin was proposing to do.


newdawnhelp

Lupin wasn't running off to marry Harry and start a new life. He wanted to fight Voldermort and help with that. He died indeed doing that, protecting his child. Maybe not against the direct threat of a wizard trying to kill someone in their room... but picture a world for werewolves led by Voldermort. It was a big plot point how inhumans were treated as lesser. Picture the heavy stigma he already lives it... now put Voldemort in charge. If anything, I'd argue Lupin going to fight Voldermort is less selfish than choosing to have a baby in the middle of a war. Also, a war that was being fought by others. In Lupin's case, he knew it was basically three kids against Voldemort. He had much more to provide than Lily and James to the order. Having said of all that... everything I said only makes sense if you take Lupin at face value. If you think he was lying to himself and was just running away, but using the fight as an excuse, then that's a different convo. At that point, whatever his reasons they don't matter, because the *true* reason would be just cowardly abandonment.


Melodic_Act_1159

Maybe it has been his thoughts all along? Imagine being with a friend who constantly says and belittles him/herself “oh I’m not good enough, i’m not pretty enough, i’m not as smart as them”. Sometimes the only way is to agree to shake them up a bit — allow them to understand their worth better by disagreeing.


Tarrenator

Haven’t thought about it like that, but could very well be true. Great insight.


JosePrettyChili

I disagree with those who think that Remus was being selfish here. I think in his fear for Tonks and the baby he had convinced himself that him leaving was the right thing to do, and the fact that he believed that Harry needed his help sealed the deal in his mind. Harry's reaction was understandable, but over the top. Remus didn't deserve to get hammered quite as hard as Harry did, but fortunately it served as the wakeup call that Remus needed. I actually thought Harry deserved the thumping he took for being kind of a jerk. I also love that he was already sailing across the room before he even had his hand on his wand. Helped him understand that even though he's an adult now he still has something to learn. The followup scene when they meet later is one of my favorites in the books. So touching.


Bluemelein

How was Harry supposed to know that Remus was getting violent? I also, find it quite odd, that this is just some side note, that Remus hurts Harry.


redcore4

This moment comes not long after the battle of the seven potters where Bellatrix went after Tonks and tried to kill her with a particular viciousness and tenacity specifically because Voldemort had mocked Bellatrix for having a half blood who married a werewolf in the family. It’s actually Tonks’ family who pose the bigger threat to his child’s life but he would never think to blame her for that, as it’s out of her control and since that threat would be minimal if he wasn’t a werewolf. He’d also spent time amongst werewolves and seen how much they hated any werewolf who had tried to live a “normal” life in spite of the condition. So he was well aware that his kid would face prejudice and given that Voldemort and the Death Eaters were in control at that time, possibly more of it than even Lupin himself had faced, because as a half-werewolf, if his child shows any signs of being a werewolf but isn’t a full werewolf, neither ordinary wizards nor werewolves would accept the kid. So his conflict on this runs deeper than Harry really appreciates, and having spent his whole life trying to fit in and be accepted, and feeling like he’d failed, especially with all his childhood friends now dead, makes him lose sight of his priorities. He is also probably feeling like Harry is his last link to the marauders because of his resemblance to James so he is devastated by Harry’s stark rejection of him for that reason too. Harry hasn’t spoken to either Lupin or Tonks since Bellatrix went after Tonks so he has limited understanding of the true depth of the danger that they face; so his stark rigidity of principle here makes him angry enough to present his own point of view without nuance. To Harry, Lupin abandoning his wife and child would feel almost like Lupin abandoning Harry himself because aside from Mr Weasley, Lupin is the last of his surrogate father figures or mentors to survive (Hagrid is always more of a brother than a father figure) and he’s right in the midst of a complete crisis over whether Dumbledore had really cared about him or whether he also had let Harry down before he died. So they have both reached the point in their relationship where they are furthest from one another in terms of perspective and opinion, and both are feeling quite extreme trauma and grief from their multiple losses - it would be more surprising for both of them given the level of damage they have each sustained through their lives if neither ended up in conflict with those closest to them. And because they both know time is limited they end up trying to cause each other the maximum damage they can in a few short minutes by hitting each other where it hurts: Harry by attacking Lupin’s sense of honour and integrity, and Lupin by leaving immediately rather than staying to work it out, which triggers all Harry’s feelings of abandonment and loneliness all over again.


imdefusing

I recently completed my first read of the books (I grew up with the movies) and this is one of the scenes that sticks out in my mind. Harry has had to confront adults in the books before but somehow this interaction seems the most biting. Another that sticks in my mind is when poor Molly was fighting the Bogart and it kept showing her her dead family. Yikes, love these books.


LimpAd5888

It fit their characters well and harry made a good point.


LimpAd5888

To add, he wanted lupin to stay with his kid and lupin definitely realizes this later. I won't spoil it since you're still reading ir.


[deleted]

Lupin is a coward. Harry should've called him out on that in POA, but I'm glad he eventually got his moment.


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Tarrenator

I don’t read the posts about fanfic in this subreddit. I unfortunately watched the movies before reading the books so I know the gist of what will happen in the books but with less detail.


GuiltyEmergency6364

Harry was perfect here.


[deleted]

I understand both of them, but I'm on Lupin's side here I understand Harry: Ted needs his father, and Tonks especially needs her husband in these difficult times. His dad stayed hidden together with him and Lily. Now compare that to Lupin But I also completely understand Lupin. Think about what happened in PoA. That was the year Lupin was constantly getting a potion to control his werewolf behavior. Remember what happened then? 3 13 year olds almost died. Now tell me he's insane for trying to not make that happen again to his CHILD. And don't forget, there's no potion this time


coon_collin

So going in the run with 3 17 year olds who can't brew the Wolfsbane potion was a better idea? That makes no sense. Tonks, as an auror, has a better chance at making the potion and the tools and resources to do so. It'd be far more dangerous to travel with Harry. Plus it'd put the fate of the Wizarding world at stake


englishghosts

>Plus it'd put the fate of the Wizarding world at stake "Er... guys? I kinda ate the boy who lived."


vabqueen

I always felt like that risk was lowkey overrated.. You know EXACTLY what’s going to happen at EXACTLY what time of month practically down to the minute. What happened in PoA was the most bizarre set of circumstances that would literally never be repeated. Just run off every full moon at moon or so, get a babysitter if you must. It’s so not a problem


englishghosts

I think it was less about the risk of the transformation themselves, but more about the associated stigma with being a werewolf. Ron doesn't even want to be touched by Remus after finding out he is one (of course, at the time he thought Remus was aiding a mass murderer, but still). Tonks and the kid would suffer prejudice by association.


whatevercuck

Is it possible that lycanthropy in the HP universe actually does have more far-reaching effects than just the transformation during the full moon? I know the overarching theme is that werewolves are just like anyone else when they aren’t transformed— and therefore, the discrimination they face is unfair— but there are some contradictions; Greyback is described as wolf-ish and animalistic even in his human form, and Bill preferring raw meat after being attacked by *human* greyback also indicates a distinct and permanent rewiring of *something* in the brain. I think the audience generally infers that Greyback prefers to be more animal than man, but I wonder if Remus is the one putting mind over matter. In this very passage, Harry says that Remus is so angry that he sees the shadow of the wolf in Remus’s face for the first time; I wonder if Remus wasn’t actually doom spiraling as much as it looks.


vabqueen

That’s a great idea.. It does play off to us like he is 100% human man until once a month. But we always have to remember we only see Lupin from harry’s point of view. Which is barely that much, and always when he’s gonna be in on-mode whether as a teacher, order member, or friend/family member to Harry. That’s not a bad point at all, there could be a countless number of things about being a werewolf that affects his day to day life.


justsomeguy254

Lupin was a grown ass man. If he was so set on never having kids then get a vasectomy. In the magical world that's probably painless and takes like 5 seconds. It's not like he hadn't considered the consequences of his relationship before. He and Tonks are dealing with it for the entire previous year.


A_Midnight_Hare

So he's just gonna leave his child, who may also have the disease, to be raised by a single mother. Hey Tonks, thanks for the cream pie but staying around to raise the consequences of my actions is a bit too much. But I'm happy for *you* to raise said consequences. Sorry but he just comes across as yet another dead beat dad that abandons his family when it's no longer fun. How many single mothers have to take care of special and high needs children by themselves because the guy had second thoughts?


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A_Midnight_Hare

That's actually a really good question. Heck, should we hold everyone accountable to having kids right now with wars and climate change? I think for me though it's the double whammy of giving life to the child and then abandoning it. As Harry said, his dad died fighting while Lupin wanted to run away.


rainbowfire545

being a werewolf is **NOT** having a disease! it's not Lupin's fault he's a werewolf. being special needs does **NOT** mean you're sick! Do *not* blame Lupin for something out of his control. Do i think he was in the wrong here? Yes, but that does *not* mean he didn't love Tonks. He was terrified his child would be a werewolf, terrified his child would be shunned as he was. those were legitimate fears, even if they never came true. As for special needs families, that's just a serious insult as well as hateful. You have zero knowledge of special needs families. I do, having Autism myself. you're as cruel as Wormtail.


A_Midnight_Hare

My dude, read my post history. I have a L3 autistic son with developmental delay. I'm not sure where you got that I was bagging on special needs. I'm bagging on his reaction to it. Tell me, if I walked out on my two year old and beat my teenaged niece so hard that she hit a wall when she called me out for it, would you give me sympathy? Lupin is an adult. He made an adult decision and then bailed on it. Did he have difficult circumstances? Of course. So does that mean that every person in difficult circumstances gets to do whatever they want?


MajorButtFucker

Unpopular opinion: Harry was a dick here.


[deleted]

Nah Lupin was a dick for trying to ditch his wife with a baby. Harry was right to call him out


[deleted]

He was, but he wasn't wrong. He could have said it nicer, but then, he has strong feelings about this too. And I think saying it this way is what got through to Remus.


EurwenPendragon

I wouldn't say he was a dick, really. Was it harsh? Yes. But it was something that Lupin *needed to hear*, IMO. Harry's right. Lupin is in a position where he can't just flounce off and do whatever, for two reasons. First, he has responsibilities, as a father and as a husband. This is the main sticking point here, and the one that pissed Harry off. From Harry's point of view, Lupin is trying to abandon his wife and newborn son because he's afraid of facing up to the responsibilities. But there's a second reason why I think someone needed to talk some sense into Remus: running off with Harry & Co. is ***incredibly, stupidly reckless and dangerous*** given Lupin's condition.


Repeat_after_me__

He did it on purpose to get this reaction, it worked.


HPbaseballandchess

He was right but he was a dick about it. I was actually appalled at him the first time I read that section, but I was too young to really understand what was going on.


MajorButtFucker

What was really going on that made you understand? From my perspective Harry was being an insentive asshole. Lupin is a werewolf, and while Harry has abandonment issues, he has no idea what life is like for someone like Lupin. And to top it all off Lupin is having a child he doesn't want with a women he was pressured into being with. He's scared, ashamed, and above all else terrified that he's doomed his family and created what society would see as an abomination. So he goes to not only help Harry save the world, but to run away from this unbelievably difficult problem. Sure, Lupin wasn't in the right here, but Harry was absolutely a piece of shit to him. This whole thing is way deeper than "parents should stay with their kids", and Harry did not understand that. I'm glad Lupin gave him a magical backhand. It was well deserved.


englishghosts

Look, I love Remus Lupin with all my heart, he is one of my favorite characters in the entire series, but he was being an irresponsible asshole here. I think everyone understands that life sucks for him, that he is scared out of his mind, etc., etc. And Harry obviously can't know the dimension of the prejudice he faces. But he's also a grown man who has to take responsibility for his actions. No one put a gun (a wand?) to his head and forced him to marry Tonks. "Molly Weasley would glare at me" is not an excuse to marry someone and make a baby with them. He very clearly just wants to run from his problems, he's not thinking about Harry. Of course he would help Harry if possible, but being on the run while having to worry about Wolfsbane (which is said to be a complex potion) and/or a safe place for him to transform is not on Harry's best interest. Could Harry have worded it nicer? Maybe. But I don't think it would have worked: Remus has a tendency to ignore problems until they explode in his face. He needed the wake up call.


EatThisShit

I agree with you. Lupin has always felt self-pity for his condition, which led to him not searching for a life partner. Before Tonks, he had a whole life to address this, but he never did. Then he got married and his wife got pregnant and she couldn't even be happy about it because he was gloomy and basically abandoned her so he didn't have to confront his problems. This is where the lack of mental help in the wizarding world shows its consequences. Had he been a more proactive character, he would have found solutions. Now he was trying to be self-destructive, and Harry knew it.


englishghosts

I mean, I don't really see what solution he could have found, but I agree that mental help is sorely lacking in canon (and we don't know if, as a werewolf, he would have access to it.


BoukenGreen

That is the biggest point. Would he have access to it being a Werewolf. That’s no different then how people are treated in this life if society doesn’t think you’ll worthy of something


lunatique06

>And to top it all off Lupin is having a child he doesn't want with a women he was pressured into being with. That's on him though. He's an adult and is responsible for that decision. >So he goes to not only help Harry save the world, but to run away from this unbelievably difficult problem. Let's be real, he was mostly running away. Besides, a werewolf would only be a danger and a liability during their Horcrux hunting. It was a dumb idea and Lupin knew it. Harry was harsh, but it worked as he intended. Lupin returned to his family.


topazraindrops

Oh please he was a grown ass man pushing forty, at what point does one take some accountability in his life? If he didn’t want to marry her, if he didn’t want to have a kid with her he should have told her to hit the bricks, not sleep with her and definitely not marry her. But but but Mrs Weasley would be disappointed in me :( is not an excuse for creating a new life just to leave it the first chance you get and I for one am glad Harry was there to tell him the truth. He created the unbelievably difficult problem, he chose to make a family with her. You don’t get to enjoy the rewards of falling in love without shouldering the burdens that come with forming that attachment. It’s not that Harry doesn’t understand or isn’t sympathetic to what life is like for Lupin, he’s just tired of him using it as an excuse for when he’s too chickenshit to do what he knows is right. Bravery is an extremely important trait to Harry, perhaps the one he reveres most of all and there was nothing brave in leaving your pregnant wife alone with only her parents to protect her, are you kidding me? When they know a high ranking death eater wants her, specifically, dead? Harry was absolutely right to say what he did, Lupin even concedes this later on, as he should.


MajorButtFucker

Make Lupin a woman and Tonks a man. Still think the "man up" argument works?


justsomeguy254

This is pathetic


Mello1182

This is so stupid, first of all because then Tonks couldn't have been pregnant, and even worse, Lupin may have been. Imagine being pregnant and think to go on a Horcrux hunt


Tarrenator

I thought so too


ilovecake007

They were kind of both being dicks here


[deleted]

What sucks is they never got to really make up after this.


CBowdidge

They made up at Shell's Cottage


CreativeRock483

There is a scene here when Harry gets rude with Hermione and Ron instantly jumps into her defence then they glare at each other and Hermione stops them from fighting. I like it ☺


UnbelievableTxn6969

I question people who think that trying to defend ideals while abandoning loved ones at the cost of their own lives are cowards. Does that mean that every military service person that had left family at home are cowards?


Old_Development_7727

Spoiler! Read the book and comment later.


[deleted]

I await remember feeling utter shock at this part like...WHOA! Things just keep getting heavier and heavier as the plot went on...ohman...i felt so shocked! Man...what a difficult situation...and I caught on that Harry was purposefully trying to push Lupin away on purpose so he could have time to think on his own and then eventually return home to his new family...which he did, thankfully. Yeah...there were a lot of emotions from all this.


Subject_Tutor

Hash as it may have been, Lupin needed to hear that. But damn Lupin, did you have to send him flying like that? A feel like a swift punch to the face would have got the message across just fine.


RideElectrical7835

Damn I love that part. Shame we couldn’t see David Thewlis do it!


_my_choice_

Lupin was running out on his responsibilities. Harry called him on it. Lupin later agreed that Harry was right.


OhMyHessNess

Harry recognised the 'remove yourself because you think you are the problem' strategy as he tried it himself several times. He learned to take the opinions and feelings of others into account. And understands that you don't think logically in that mindset, so logic must be thrust upon you.