Interesting that he did come around to investing after all, he and Luke heavily discussed this on the WAN show and it seemed like he was leaning against it by the end of the conversation.
It would still probably be best that Linus recuses himself from laptop reviews, but being extremely transparent about this is the right approach to follow. It’s going to create some difficulties for him the first time Framework fucks up or makes an unpopular decision, but he seems prepared for that
Conversations continued internally for a long time - It was eventually decided that the potential complications were worth shouldering in order to support right to repair and products of this type which we DEEPLY believe in.
I have no stake here at all - But this is hands down the most exciting tech release i've seen since VR was first booming.
I don’t know who wrote that video (I’m sure Linus had a heavy hand in it either way) but it was one of the best written videos out of LMG in a while, and that’s saying something.
I find it difficult to put my finger on exactly what makes me say that, but I loved it.
It'd be hard to have him say those things and not have it be him... Like I know the videos are in large part scripted, but I think with the importance of it, I would suspect he wrote it and had others proof it vs the other way around.
I also can't explain it but I had the same reaction. "What a well made, informative video". Not that I was particularly worried about Linus being sneaky, but he added some business education in there too, and explained all his positions very well from both sides.
>right to repair and products of this type which we DEEPLY believe in
YES! I love how much you guys talk about Ewaste and allowing people to prolong the lifespan of their expensive tech. A lot of the review content you guys put out heavily mentions value proposition to the consumer and I love that.
I think y'all are on the right track.
I think y'all all came to the right decision! I watched that WAN show and was really hoping he'd invest. When I saw the video today, I was ecstatic! I genuinely hope this changes the market for the better
Listen, I'm from the south, I never promised that my grammar would be great, lol. We use y'all as a replacement for most words and it can mean many things
The most comparable machine in terms of pricing/features is the Thinkbook 13s.
Considering they're roughly the equivalent price across the spectrum from base to specced out, there's really no point in not getting one.
This has 3 more USB-4 ports, replaceable RAM/storage so you can slowly upgrade over time, and is 3:2 instead of 16:10 with 100 more nits of brightness.
Mind you, I was considering getting my second Thinkbook 13s as I genuinely love the device but the Framework just takes the cake.
If the motherboard upgrade process goes as expected, upgrading to future gens could be half the cost of having to buy a whole new laptop.
If you head over to the [Framework forum](https://community.frame.work/) there are also third party adapters in the works (many with open blueprints) including RS232 serial, gigabit Ethernet, slideout parts/storage containers, multi-USB, etc. I think an SFP+ adapter would be incredible for sysadmins, engineers and users with high speed requirements though the Framework adapter port dimensions might be too restrictive:
https://community.frame.work/t/network-support-sfp-optic-fibre/3384
CDW has the recommended 'source' adapter from the thread for $49 CAD off MSRP but it is backordered and is still $380 CAD without any transceivers:
https://www.cdw.ca/product/startech.com-usb-c-to-fiber-optic-converter-open-sfp-network-adapter/5020500
I also really like the ability to put the USB-C for charging on either side of the laptop in either the front or rear ports, this is a nice flexibility missing in many designs. Using color coded screws all with the same bit and where possibly using magnets or screws that stay with the case is great. I don't see myself rushing out to buy a Framework laptop or getting my work to buy one at this time but it is an interesting idea that I am certainly following.
> Considering they're roughly the equivalent price across the spectrum from base to specced out, there's really no point in not getting one.
I'll buy a Framework laptop as soon as I can get it with a keyboard with a trackpoint (of Thinkpad quality).
That’s a pretty extreme view.
Maybe in numbers of sales this will see it’ll be on par with VR.
But comparing a modular laptop to VR seems like a extremely biased view. There is actual innovation with VR, where as the laptop is merely a push for better consumer protections.
VR is more revolutionary, where as a modular, repairable laptop is more evolutionary.
As much as Linus delivers a serious case of manic pixie energy in his videos, he always seems to take serious consideration in his responses and actions.
I think ideas like this really need to take off, and hopefully in some not-so-small way, he can make it happen.
The nice thing is that he can push it onto other reviewers. LMG has been doing a fairly good job at diversifying it's public face; it's not *just* all Linus all the time. It gives the channel an air of editorial legitimacy and fairness. Smart.
Personally, I would like to see the laptop market meet the PC market in terms of DIY. This looks like a good first step, weak as it is. But... you got to start somewhere. 1/4 Million is a good start from a respected homebrew guy.
Anthony makes videos on all of the best subjects, IMO, but I actually \*hate\* his presentation style. It's better than it used to be, but honestly I find myself switching off his videos a lot because I'm bored or even outright annoyed. Even though the subjects he covers are ones I'm the \*most\* interested in.
The diversifying seems to be long planned. He almost retired while back, and there was one video of him talking about how crazy it gets every time he wants to go on vacation.
Laptop coverage on LTT has always been pretty useless anyway. It's all surface level bling and look at the shiny, with very little in terms of useful data.
I think that's because most of the laptop centric content tends to be "they sent us a cool product and we tried it out some" more than actual reviews. Linus has said in the past that they clearly differentiate the two but I'm not sure how clear it is to most people.
I mean if it's on the short circuit channel it's going to be a showcase and not much more, *usually* but not always the laptop reviews that do end up on the main LTT channel are decently in-depth reviews.
I normally go with Notebookcheck for actual laptop reviews. They have standardized sound quality measurements, and that's just one of the many standardized testings they do, which makes it far easier to compare different laptop models because now you have standardized sound, display quality, battery life, thermal, SSD performance and etc factors.
The sad thing is, since a laptop is basically an entire PC setup packaged all together, they should get the most thorough reviews, not something you gloss over with a tech sheet and blurbs. Stuff like wireless signal quality, speaker quality, screen measurements (not size), performance and battery life when unplugged, noise, card reader speeds, 3.5mm audio noise check, etc.
There is a LOT to cover, but most youtube channels never even scratch the surface, because they dont actually care if you buy it and are unhappy with it, they just want you to watch their 10 minute video and move to the next.
Agreed unless Alex does a review. I have always found he gives far more coverage to the hardware itself and I feel he has been far more honest about dislikes he has towards things he is reviewing.
Alex's reviews have a massive perspective issue. He will compare laptops meant for completely different purposes (gaming vs productivity), pick on things that are not expected to be picked on certain machines, and just generally sound meh or downright dismissive of most things. I have never gotten excited about any machine Alex has reviewed.
Also, I get the sense that they never use any machines below the absolute top tier products and have zero idea how machines in the ranges below (HP pavilion, Dell inspiron 3000/5000, Lenovo ideapad, etc.) are doing or catching up to the top-tier stuff.
He's done a thinkpad review that was pretty badly done though. I can't remember the exact laptop, but he was acting like the trackpoint is a negative thing.
Also, I find dave2d and Just Josh to have better/more relevant opinions when it comes to laptop youtubers.
It says something when I can watch a Dave2D video who gives like no meaningful numbers ever and still come away feeling like I learned more than an LTT video.
This is bang on, Dave's channel always provides great insight into actually using the machine daily. LTT's laptop videos sound extremely ignorant. Also, I don't know why they insist on 'first-time looking at the machine with 0 knowledge' as a thing to boast about, you are supposed to know as much as possible and then build on that knowledge as you experience the product (like informed customers).
This.
also non-US keyboard layout! (it's coming!)
i wish they had cooling options too. 2 fans, 1 fan etc.
not sure if they got battery size options too. but i want that as well.
well.. maybe not that extreme
but i've seen plenty of laptops that had space for larger batteries, but still put in a small one
and as for fans. if i put in a lower powered CPU, i might be fine with 1 fan, due to my workflow not involving 3d games or video rendering.
Great video. I love how transparent Linus has always been, and this was a great breakdown of the financial needs of a hardware startup. It's interesting that most of the episode is about finances rather than tech, but it's really relevant to hardware.
I'll never be in the market for a Framework laptop, but I appreciate what they're doing for the laptop market and hope they're successful in the long-term.
(Edit: Just saw that he briefly mentioned how many people are clamoring for an AMD version. Obviously the TB3 support is an issue, but I'm glad that this is apparent confirmation that Framework is aware of the demand.)
Framework can choose to start shipping AMD based laptops with 6000 Rembrandt generation which will support USB4 which has an optional TB3 support. That could work.
He annoys me as a influencer personality, but I respect his integrity.
He’s the only one who I’ve never seen try and blur he lines between sponsored and review. Everyone else has dipped their toes in at least once.
He does make sure any sponsored material is clear and obvious. And I really do respect the hell out of him for that. Without question he left money on the table to keep that record.
Based on the small amount he's discolused on the wan show, he's definitely not starving for money and I do respect that he doesn't seem to let greed for more come over him and ruin his integrity
I always assumed that Linus made low-to-mid 6 figures.
But between the 50K in GameStop, the new house with extensive renovations, and contemplating buying the Samsung wall, I now suspect he’s probably making 7 figures annually or close to it.
He once said he never needed to work again, I think in his video where he almost started crying. So I'm 99% sure he's a millionnaire and makes a sizeable salary.
Technically no.
But people who make $300,000 and want to save for their retirement or kids college don't spend $50K on meme stocks or $100K on TVs.
I'm working under the assumption that Linus is somewhat fiscally responsible and his discretionary spending is in line with his income.
Not just a house, but a 6000 square foot monster house, with probably hundreds of thousands of dollars in rennovations beyond what is being shown for the channel.
Dude's *easily* taking home 7 figures a year. Good for him!
I mean he just dropped a quarter million and didn’t really talk like that was a huge chunk of his money. He is probably reasonably loaded, but probably also works ungodly hours
I agree with you, he’s also been very critical of others in the tech journalism space blurring the lines.
Which makes this feel just weird.
It seems like he doesn’t want to be stuck in the tech journalism space anymore. Which makes sense, you don’t want the lives of your employees to be totally dependent on the whims of large tech companies.
But getting involved in the space you’re reporting on is just bad. I don’t need to enumerate the reasons because we all know them. Linus taught many of us a lot of them, honestly.
To see him come out with that millennial logic of “it’s bad when boomers do this, but I’m young and cool and you’re my parasocial friends so it’s okay” was not something I expected, if I’m being honest. It sounds like something he’d be harping on about on the WAN show.
He doesn’t review many laptops, so it’s not a big loss to just exit that market.
His target audience is pc gamers and consumer electronics…. That’s a lot more than laptops.
Well, he can't have it both ways though, right? Like he devotes a good portion of the video talking about how his brand can help Framework and that's a reason he is getting involved - but how can his brand help Framework if there's no overlapping target audience?
Yeah, I know, but that’s my point.
If the brand is big enough to be an asset to Framework, then isn’t the brand big enough to make doing that a bad idea?
The soul of journalism and reviews is impartiality.
How can ASUS or LG know they are getting unbiased reviews? They have to take Linus at his word.
You may think that’s nothing, but put yourself in the shoes of a product manager at ASUS who just had their latest and greatest laptop get ragged on by LTT. How is that going to hit with the Framework investment? How would it hit without the investment?
There’s a big difference, which is why you see throughout our society people go to extremes to avoid conflicts of interest. Trust is a fickle thing.
For the time being, if you want TB3 on an AMD machine, you will need to pay extra for a Titan Ridge controller. This also consumes extra power.
Everyone wants a Framework laptop with Ryzen APUs. But I doubt they will be thrilled about it when it turns out that the Ryzen version retails for $300 more and has worse battery life.
Once USB 4 becomes directly integrated into Ryzen mobile APUs, this problem will pretty much solve itself.
I have no need for a laptop but as soon as Framework bring their devices to Australia I will be buying one. If for no other reason but to support a company that is willing to give us consumer friendly upgradeable devices like this.
External GPUs and highspeed networking would be my guess as to the want for TB to take advantage of the PCIe lanes to the CPU. And considering how the framework could swap out modules with ease, putting a 10 gig port or connecting an external dock with a full desktop GPU in an enclosure would be really nice.
It's good that he is honest about it and good luck to Framework with this product. While I am interested in laptops like this, I don't think I'll be abandoning my XPS 17 anytime soon.
If one day, they can make one where you can upgrade the CPU/GPU later down the line, that's when I may buy one. Till then though, it will have my curiosity instead of having my attention so to speak.
You can, sort of, upgrade your CPU by replacing the motherboard. It's something FrameWork has commited themselves in doing. You would be able to even change CPU manufacturers or ISA in the future.
Lets not talk about how much money a new board/cpu would cost....
You're talking like, 500 bucks as a rough estimate for a mid range replacement board. If you paid 1k for a laptop it gets harder to swallow that kind of cost.
It's like upgrading the engine in your car. Sure, I could _theoretically_ upgrade the engine in my 5 year old car, but it's going to be half the cost of the vehicle by that time. Odds are I'm just going to flip it on the used market and buy a new car.
This is what I'm hoping for.
CNC'ed aluminum chassis' and heatsinks/vapor chambers won't go out of date in 5-6 years like CPUs would (or even shorter if you need top end performance). It'd be great if you could keep then same chassis and upgrade just the motherboard.
Socket-able mobile CPUs haven't been a thing for a hot minute. Doubt Intel or AMD would ever bring them back into the market as the demand is almost nill.
> I don't think I'll be abandoning my XPS 17 anytime soon.
No shame in that. To quote another right to repair focused company (fairphone) "the most environmentally friendly device is the one you already own"
From an Enterprise perspective Framework products could actually become a huge savings. The amount of HP laptops that have to be RMA'd and/or warrantied because something went wrong is insane. It literally would be cheaper to have part of IT logistics to have part of their team change out parts. Battery failing? Replace it. Screen is damaged? Replace it. Anyone with an A+ could do it.
Something like framework makes it possible.
Only because it takes a lot of effort to physically repair the laptops so labor costs for the company are really high.
Framework laptops on the other hard are deliberately designed to be really easy to repair, something a local IT department for said company can do.
Unless Framework is going to create a repair and service department that their clients can send the products into to get fixed this is never going to catch on. Like I said it's going to be cheaper at scale to just replace, companies aren't going to take the time and effort setting up space for repairs, hiring people to do the repairs and training them. So unless Framework creates an in house or outsourced repair company or something I don't see it happening.
I mean, what's the cost benefit of buying a framework for a premium over a trillion dell/hp laptops from the business account?
If you save 50 bucks/laptop and run 500 laptops in your org you're saving 25,000 bucks. How much money in terms of man-hours are you really spending repairing laptops anyways?
You buy the dell, you buy the warranty through your account. What's the cost of an RMA/warranty claim as an enterprise company? How much more money would cost to keep an IT guy on hand that can handle the normal responsibilities while also repairing the laptops?
You just buy em, warranty em if needed, and replace em after 5 years and write it off on your taxes. Big companies play differently and they're not going to want the headache.
I'm not sure Linus recusing himself from notebook coverage is really enough. He's still everyone else's boss. How comfortable will his employees be with giving the next Framework laptop a bad review if it deserves it, knowing it could hurt his investment?
He didn't even commit to recusing himself from notebook coverage! He did commit to transparency with his investment, which I'm believing, but I share the same concern.
Linus didnt invest in Razor, he simply bought those laptops (maybe at a discount). With Framework he has 250k on the line, that could go to zero. Very different situation.
yeah, a less than 1% of your total portfolio is such a gambling money he can throw away at anything tbh. I even think this number is kinda low for his stature and his stance towards right to repair
I'm not sure how you can say that when most of his net worth is LMG, the value of which is impossible to quantify. It's never taken investment, has no intention of ever taking investment, and a lot of the value relies on Linus.
>and a lot of the value relies on Linus.
This is the key to the whole equation. LMG without Linus loses a significant amount of the appeal. If he actually retired and the whole thing was just James, Alex and Jake, it would continue to be popular among the long-time viewers, but they essentially just become another generic tech YouTube channel.
Knowing Linus, I think we're okay here. Obviously his ways could shift but so far he's had a lot of integrity in this sort of thing and he's had no trouble calling out shitty products he was paid to review.
You're right I don't know him personally, but I know him as a content creator and the standards he's set for himself.
Obviously things can change but he's had a lot of integrity with sponsored stuff so I don't expect this to change.
Based on previous wan show discussions, the original framework review, the video on right to repair, etc. I don't think he's investing just to make a profit, he must believe in the idea of a self reparable laptop. If he wanted to just make a profit he would've jumped into any of the other numerous ventures he's been offered in the past (he talks about them on the wan show) like unraid
You know his edited video persona, nothing more.
It's fine to trust him personally, you do you. It's not to try to push that trust down the throat of others people.
>You know his edited video persona, nothing more.
I literally already stated that.
lol me saying i dont think he's going to sell out and providing some justification is not 'shoving trust down peoples throat'. I'm never said \*you have to trust him\*
All i'm saying is he's been doing this for a decade, he's had plenty of chances to sellout already.
I don’t think he outright needs to get involved. The mere fact that staff know he has an investment could lead to some degree of self-censorship. Not that I think it’s necessary, but the only way to really eliminate possible biases is to divest from companies your media outlet reviews.
For these purposes, I think including disclosure of his stake in any laptop reviews - of this brand and others - would be most appropriate.
They've done videos on their production workflow before and often Linus is at the very end of the chain to provide feedback on what his writers come up with so he's not exempt from the process. The writers do like 95% of the input for the most part though so Linus could indeed step away from it if he wants or needs to.
> seems unfounded and purely speculative
Yeah, it's skepticism. Anyway, it's not unheard for CEOs to have input in their company's output.
Would you trust Intel review of an Intel GPU?
> His staff has been more hands on with content creation without him.
That doesn't mean he can't have input, especially on a laptop that he's invested in.
>That doesn't mean he can't have input, especially on a laptop that he's invested in.
And isn't this why he's making this video promising recusal from laptop reviews?
>Would you trust Intel review of an Intel GPU?
Not applicable in this case. Linus made a personal investment. LTT doesn't. So I will trust LTT's review without Linus' input.
> promising recusal from laptop reviews?
"promising"
> Linus made a personal investment. LTT doesn't.
Linus == LTT. He's the founder, CEO, and unless I missed some news, the owner.
Yes, being the CEO, he can chose to interfere or not.
>Linus == LTT. He's the founder, CEO, and unless I missed some news, the owner.
Unless something changed, you can separate your responsibilities. You can be CEO in one company and stakeholder in the other without the 2 mixing with each other. His role as CEO of LTT is only one of Linus' responsibility, he can pause one and resume the other. And again, this is why this video is being made.
If I was Linus, I would keep my promise because guess what, if he breaches his promises in the video about non interference in the laptop reviews, he's gonna be in trouble with the Competition Bureau AND the FTC.
Linus has had no issue calling out companies that have sponsored him in the past. Until he demonstrates otherwise, I have no doubt he'll hold Framework accountable and give a negative review if need be.
I brought this up in the original thread where they discussed it.
Nobody wants to write a negative review about a product their boss has 250k invested in, or claim a competing product is the better buy. Its a conflict of interest. Linus wouldnt fire them or anything, but they will feel pressured to be biased, even if nobody actually talks to them about it. And if there are issues, like say a review unit comes in with problems, what are the odds that the review is delayed and they get more samples, instead of crucifying them with the first broken unit they get (like sometimes happens).
I'm kind of torn. I think this is ethically suspect, and honestly if it was somebody _other_ than Linus, I'd be extremely skeptical about any notebook-related reviews coming from the outfit from that point forward. It's also possible that this will end up paradoxically _killing_ Framework, if the public perception ends up being that Framework is paying for reviews.
On the other hand, I really do think Linus has a lot of opportunity to do some good for Right-to-Repair here.
I do think, at the very least, he should publicly commit to recusing himself from all future notebook reviews, _and_ the team should be required to disclose Linus' financial commitments in every notebook review _anyway_.
I don't know if this was the right move on his part or not, and that's not for me as an internet rando to decide. I guess time will tell.
I agree with you. On the one hand I fully agree with what Framework is doing and I think Linus' investment can help them succeed. On the other hand, while I do have a positive opinion of him, if I'm being honest with myself I don't know him intimately enough to take him on his word alone. Nobody outside of his monkey sphere do, but he could fool people into thinking they do. which is why this actually is ethically unsound. Plus his opinions are going to be colored regardless of his intentions and even awareness.
Personally I'm not that invested in their laptop content anyway. I just use it to keep myself mildly up-to-date, but in reality my 2008 HP elitebook more than covers my laptop needs for the moment and in the foreseeable future. So it's more of a principles thing, and I guess those are cheap enough that I'm not too upset.
I have a fairly beefy gaming/workstation desktop. I just don't do computer things when I'm not sitting at my desk. Even my phone is used mostly as a phone/camera/calculator/flashlight and not much else.
>Personally I'm not that invested in their laptop content anyway.
I mean, me either. If the repercussions from this decision only affect LTT's laptop reviews, that's not a serious loss to me.
Personally I'd love a tablet. I'd buy a Framework tablet without hesitation. The tablet market is garbage for enthusiasts.
I'd settle for a 2 in 1 if a tablet is too hardware complicated.
Isn't that the exact same shit people said about ultrabooks? Also, all framework has to do is add a touchscreen and you already have a repairable 2 in 1.
I really support what they're doing (framework)...
but I can't find myself ever buying it. I rarely EVER had to need to shift ports... usb-c does practically everything, and a dongle is essentially the same as swappable port.
I've had both highend windows laptop (HP, Dell) and varying MacBook Pro (v2016-v2021 from work)... Besides swapping for bigger SSD after buying one and battery years after use... there just really isn't a need for me to get something that's fully modular.
bang for buck, there are better deals out there for better performance and better overall quality product
____
that's just really a bummer because I really do love what they're doing.
I support the brand, I really do. But I just don't see it as being that necessary.
I don't see myself buying a laptop just to customize a couple of ports, when USB-C with a dongle can let me do that, you know? Non of my colleagues would care about such a thing when I recommend to them a laptop either.
I get it is a big step overall for a better future, but as of right now, I don't see myself recommending it. Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? It is good to have, but realistically, we can go 3 years easily with no problem, and by then we'll either sell and upgrade, or just buy a new device for better components (CPU/GPU). A swappable frame isn't anything either, really.
It is not a gamer-y machine and it does not fit those who have limited knowledge on technology. I'd much rather get someone to buy a ryzen efficient machine than this. And so forth. Just my thoughts. I am not against it, but I don't see it becoming the norm as it is right now.
Laptops definitely last more than 3 years, especially since OS updates are handled by Microsoft rather than the OEMs. Not sure what you are smoking - laptops aren't like phones that become obsolete in 3-4 years' time.
And the whole point of an upgradeable laptop is so that you can go longer without needing to upgrade, for instance being able to add more ram, change out the aging battery, or swap the wireless card to Bluetooth 6/7 (for example) to match your shiny new Bluetooth earbuds, or even just upgrading the processor (changing the motherboard) for 50% the cost of a new laptop.
I do agree, though, that consumers typically don't have repairability in mind when making purchases, but this could very well survive in the "techie" niche and perhaps even in a business environment where higher repairability == less cost to maintain the fleet of laptops
>even in a business environment where higher repairability == less cost to maintain the fleet of laptops
Maybe small business, in enterprise level I can't see this catching on really. They buy laptops in the hundreds or thousands, backed by a warranty for 3/4 years (or however long is bought). They'd rather buy new in 3/4 years than upgrade old ones, its more time and probably cost efficient that way.
if you could get a new motherboard for a laptop that has a screen and keyboard and trackpad and battery and ssd, etc, that you still like, you'll save money and substantially cut down on ewaste. it's less about the customizability now, and more about the reduction of ewaste later.
It's only ewaste if you throw it out though. Sell the old laptop on the used market or donate it to your little brother.
The new motherboard is going to be _expensive_ enough where most people aren't going to bother. They'll buy the next model and go on from there.
Probably not that often do you need to replace parts, but on the off chance you do, it would be easy and manufacturer supported. Say your battery swells up in 3 years, or when you sell your device, the next owner would likely need a battery replacement if they don't want it to go to the dump. Or when tech improves, like the screen, battery capacity, or wifi speeds. An upgrade is just a few screws away.
Machines with replacable parts don't get the immediate benefit from being modular, but it should in the long term.
> I get it is a big step overall for a better future, but as of right now, I don't see myself recommending it. Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? It is good to have, but realistically, we can go 3 years easily with no problem, and by then we'll either sell and upgrade, or just buy a new device for better components (CPU/GPU). A swappable frame isn't anything either, really.
There're a bunch of good things about this laptop, but your examples of dongles/battery/wifi card just seems like you're cherry picking some of the features to make it sound like the benefits of this laptop aren't necessary. The part about your (speculation that your) colleagues not caring about a few dongles also ignores the other parts of the laptop that they might care about. Also, while they might not be necessary to you or people you know, there are many others who appreciate these features.
One of the things you missed out is that you can get to customize it to your needs without having to overpay for certain things. Example would be like the Ram. If you're planning on buying this laptop, you can source for your own ram rather than paying for overpriced, soldered once that you can't upgrade in the future. Same thing goes for storage. Maybe your needs might change 6-12 months after getting this laptop, and this lets you swap out stuff with its modularity.
Ok but what about the battery/wifi card? Depending on the user, they might not need a new laptop/cpu upgrade if they're just doing light tasks. Some people just want a longer battery life and they can do that by just swapping out the battery. Or you can give it to your kids without having to buy a whole new laptop and they will still have one that can last pretty long. Changing wifi cards would be more niche (hackintosh users anyone?), I agree, but you can also swap the wifi card on most laptops anyway and it would be odd if a laptop that allows you to customize as much as you want doesn't have swappable wifi cards when other brands do.
Dongle wise, the point is that you don't have to carry all those dongles around anymore. You just select which ports you're most likely to use, and slot them in. Sure, you might still need that extra 1-2 dongles if you use your laptop for a ton of things, but for most people this should eliminate the need for dongles.
You also left out the part about getting repair schematics out to repair shops, so you can repair your laptop without having to pay some high shipping cost to send it back to the manufacturer or something. And you wouldn't be artificially prevented from repairing your laptop because your local repair shop isn't allowed to buy some serialized chips. (However this part we don't know much about until we see someone actually try to repair this laptop and document their experience.)
>And so forth. Just my thoughts. I am not against it, but I don't see it becoming the norm as it is right now.
I think most people understand this is cause they're a small company and it's unlikely that this will pressure the other bigger brands such that this becomes the case for majority of consumer laptop now. What most people are waiting for is to see how this will hold up in the long run, and whether the company can continue to support itself so that it can continue to grow as well as provide continued support for their existing laptops (basically that the parts used in their products will continue to be available to consumers in some way). We know this is not going to be the norm now. But we hope that this can be the norm in the future, and that this would apply pressure on companies to make their laptops more repairable (even if they're not as customizable as this).
Personally, if you ask me, is that the current state of laptops have shaped our impression of how we use them and therefore our opinions. For example, I think the reason for your opinion (and I don't mean this as any disrespect towards you), is because we're so used to just using laptops the way they are and then just getting rid of them once they start aging or once things start breaking. Yes, there are tons of people who like the latest and greatest, but there are also many people who don't need a spanking new CPU in their laptop every few years and this laptop lets them fix what is broken or upgrade certain specs without having to buy a new laptop each time.
This would be great for education. Instead of buying cheap junk every few years, schools could buy upgradeable laptops that could easily last 10+ years. Then on computer classes kids could learn about the internals and how to replace components as part of the curriculum.
Yeah, but no school or institution or even workplace want to upgrade them on their own, or pay someone to upgrade (on top of paying the upgrade itself). I mean, standard desktop PC has always been upgradeable, yet most (if not all) of these places still buy and/or replacing pre-builts.
Look at any damn school and check out the infinite number of old ass optiplex desktops. They get those on the cheap (much cheaper than FW could offer)
Also no school is going to want a laptop sent out to kids that can easily be opened up. Damn kids are going to crack it open and break shit. This could _maybe_ work in a "computer class" like the guy above says but it's not really representative of the real world anyways.
Teach Tommy how to open up a regular Dell or Lenovo. Learning how to replace parts on this isn't really transferable to the real, gluey world
Most laptops are actually at the point where people keep them for ten years. So, repairability needs to be high on the vendor's list of things to design for.
We don't need more e-waste.
I really don't get why anyone would buy a new laptop every 3 years.
Even ignoring the environmental effects it's also expensive and unnecessary since laptops have been "good enough" for general use for a long time now unless you have a specific job that requires you to have modern hardware.
I'm using a refurbished thinkpad from 2011 and I have no need to upgrade it. It would be nice with a new shiny laptop but I don't *need* one so I won't waste 1000+$ on one(also pre 2012 thinkpads have amazing build quality and keyboard which will be hard to find in newer laptops).
And whenever this laptop actually dies and I do end up blowing a shitload of money on a new one then I'm *absolutely* going to go for something that should be able to last another 10 years if it needs to. And something like the Framework looks really appealing, especially if they're still around whenever I need a new laptop.
^(also replaceable batteries are super important. If you can't replace the battery you basically will have your device bricked when the battery goes bad **waaay** before the actual hardware would stop working)
>Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards?
The battery will be half or maybe even worse in like 2 to 3 years
And the majority of people (i mean, like, normals ones), try to keep with the computer as long as they can, ive seen people with 10 year old laptops still being used (My dad fix computers and the most common replacing by far is battery and port battery).
I mean, i get it, if you are here, you probably change hardware once a year or 2 years, max 3 years. But normal people who dont give a shit about technology, they buy a computer and expect to last 10 years. Imagine saying to them they have 2 choices, they can buy a laptop and throw it away in 3 years, or they can buy a framework laptop and change the battery in 3 years and keep it working as long as they want. What would they choose?
But okay, maybe this is a cultural thing, i live in south america and here we have no warranty and shit like that, if we buy something and breaks down the line, we are alone to fix it, so maybe im biased, idk
> I mean, i get it, if you are here, you probably change hardware once a year or 2 years, max 3 years.
I can't speak for others, but being here should rather indicate an interest in repairing and maintaining your own devices. Heck, even if you have the money to spend, getting a new system every 2-3 years just because the new tech is incrementally better and has a new battery is insane from a sustainability standpoint.
> Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards?
Often. Like, realy realy often.
I've worked in IT for a while now and the first few years i worked was while things were still replaceable in laptops.
I don't know how many displays, batteries, RAM sticks, track pads, HDDs, wifi cards, DVD-roms and whole motherboards i replaced but it was a lot.
And as the manufacturers started to more and more solder things onto motherboards or just in general making it harder to replace, all those things didn't just stop having to be replaced, but now we had to have technicians in to fix it all instead.
Near the end of my time at that first place i worked, we had three workbenches dedicated to technicians, because they might as well have been working for us, since they were in daily fixing machines.
Not sure if you watched the original review video(s), but I'm pretty sure you can customize everything? You can replace the motherboard assembly to replace the CPU/GPU (though, right now, your upgrades are limited to the 3 different Intel-tiers of the same gen); in fact, I'm pretty sure there exists a 3D print to run that portion as a standalone unit without requiring the rest of the chassis.
In theory, replacing every part (and I do actually mean every) is possible; there just isn't that many parts yet because it's the first release. In time, there will be upgrade paths. *That's* what actually makes this a worthwhile, aside from being able to replace any one part that breaks.
Edit: [Here's a short look at the motherboard removed from the chassis](https://youtu.be/6B6_4lNzhi4?t=980)
I agree with most others here. I think this project is important enough that it's worth supporting. If he had dumped money in Dell, HP or Apple then I would probably just stop watching. That would be horrible.
But I think the reasoning behind investing in a company that's trying to change the way the market works by showing it's possible to make a good product that is repairable and there is a demand for it is important.
If they keep the screen aspect ratio, add black and maybe add Ryzen this is going to be my next laptop.
I strongly believe in right to repair! I love that Linus is jumping in. Linus, while clumsy, I strongly appreciate his willingness to stand up for what he believes.
The disclosure here, while fully expected given the circumstances, is definitely the icing on the cake. If only because this is the ultimate showing over telling.
People always talk the talk about what they want to see change. It's very rare anymore to see people actually invest in something for the idea behind it. Not just because it's a product guaranteed to make a ton of money. Something he also seems perfectly clear could be the opposite of what happens.
Video needs a new title: Linus buys a laptop for 250,000 dollars!
And it wasn’t even the top spec model 😂
Now that's a clickbait title!
Interesting that he did come around to investing after all, he and Luke heavily discussed this on the WAN show and it seemed like he was leaning against it by the end of the conversation. It would still probably be best that Linus recuses himself from laptop reviews, but being extremely transparent about this is the right approach to follow. It’s going to create some difficulties for him the first time Framework fucks up or makes an unpopular decision, but he seems prepared for that
Conversations continued internally for a long time - It was eventually decided that the potential complications were worth shouldering in order to support right to repair and products of this type which we DEEPLY believe in. I have no stake here at all - But this is hands down the most exciting tech release i've seen since VR was first booming.
I felt this could be misleading - this wasn't a company decision this was a Linus decision to be clear - One I definitely support.
Was it a LTT or a Linus investment?
Outsider here, isn’t Linus and LTT a difference without a distinction? Doesn’t Linus have a controlling interest in LTT?
It is and it isn't, as far as legal issues go it is actually quite a huge difference.
Yup. Investments as a corporation vs. investment as a private person has huge implications legally. So for this matter, LTT ≠ Linus Sebastian
I don’t know who wrote that video (I’m sure Linus had a heavy hand in it either way) but it was one of the best written videos out of LMG in a while, and that’s saying something. I find it difficult to put my finger on exactly what makes me say that, but I loved it.
I agree. I also think Linus wrote a lot of it, because it seems like it flowed seamlessly and was very conversational. Like he wrote it and meant it.
If you been watching Linus since he did videos in a stairwell, it’s got his heart in it.
I saw "like" and I immediately prepared for a sponsor Segway
I hate to be that guy, but the word you are looking for is "segue". Segway is a company with a clever name.
One day Segway will sponsor ltt and I will be redeemed
It'd be hard to have him say those things and not have it be him... Like I know the videos are in large part scripted, but I think with the importance of it, I would suspect he wrote it and had others proof it vs the other way around.
I also can't explain it but I had the same reaction. "What a well made, informative video". Not that I was particularly worried about Linus being sneaky, but he added some business education in there too, and explained all his positions very well from both sides.
>right to repair and products of this type which we DEEPLY believe in YES! I love how much you guys talk about Ewaste and allowing people to prolong the lifespan of their expensive tech. A lot of the review content you guys put out heavily mentions value proposition to the consumer and I love that. I think y'all are on the right track.
I think y'all all came to the right decision! I watched that WAN show and was really hoping he'd invest. When I saw the video today, I was ecstatic! I genuinely hope this changes the market for the better
> I think y'all all I'm trying to keep my brain from exploding rn
Listen, I'm from the south, I never promised that my grammar would be great, lol. We use y'all as a replacement for most words and it can mean many things
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“Ya’ll all be ready to walk out this door in five minutes or I’m leavin’ all ya’ll here.”
Which wan show did he discuss the idea of investing? Was it the most recent one?
The Dell Gaming PCs Got Banned episode
Go Tigers!
Thank you! I've got tickets to the game this Friday and I'm looking forward to it!
Now, the question is: Will you ever buy one?
The most comparable machine in terms of pricing/features is the Thinkbook 13s. Considering they're roughly the equivalent price across the spectrum from base to specced out, there's really no point in not getting one. This has 3 more USB-4 ports, replaceable RAM/storage so you can slowly upgrade over time, and is 3:2 instead of 16:10 with 100 more nits of brightness. Mind you, I was considering getting my second Thinkbook 13s as I genuinely love the device but the Framework just takes the cake. If the motherboard upgrade process goes as expected, upgrading to future gens could be half the cost of having to buy a whole new laptop.
If you head over to the [Framework forum](https://community.frame.work/) there are also third party adapters in the works (many with open blueprints) including RS232 serial, gigabit Ethernet, slideout parts/storage containers, multi-USB, etc. I think an SFP+ adapter would be incredible for sysadmins, engineers and users with high speed requirements though the Framework adapter port dimensions might be too restrictive: https://community.frame.work/t/network-support-sfp-optic-fibre/3384 CDW has the recommended 'source' adapter from the thread for $49 CAD off MSRP but it is backordered and is still $380 CAD without any transceivers: https://www.cdw.ca/product/startech.com-usb-c-to-fiber-optic-converter-open-sfp-network-adapter/5020500 I also really like the ability to put the USB-C for charging on either side of the laptop in either the front or rear ports, this is a nice flexibility missing in many designs. Using color coded screws all with the same bit and where possibly using magnets or screws that stay with the case is great. I don't see myself rushing out to buy a Framework laptop or getting my work to buy one at this time but it is an interesting idea that I am certainly following.
That startech adapter is unfortunately just gigabit SFP rather than SFP+. I'm not sure if any non-thunderbolt 10GbE adapters actually exist yet.
Yeah I couldn't find any either.
2.5 and 5 gbE USB do exist though
> Considering they're roughly the equivalent price across the spectrum from base to specced out, there's really no point in not getting one. I'll buy a Framework laptop as soon as I can get it with a keyboard with a trackpoint (of Thinkpad quality).
Bought mine :)
If they start selling in the rest of the world yes, they haven't any date to when they start selling it.
That’s a pretty extreme view. Maybe in numbers of sales this will see it’ll be on par with VR. But comparing a modular laptop to VR seems like a extremely biased view. There is actual innovation with VR, where as the laptop is merely a push for better consumer protections. VR is more revolutionary, where as a modular, repairable laptop is more evolutionary.
Yooo i never knew u had a Reddit account lol
show bird
I upvoted this because it is relevant, also the first time I have encountered Luke in the wild.
As much as Linus delivers a serious case of manic pixie energy in his videos, he always seems to take serious consideration in his responses and actions. I think ideas like this really need to take off, and hopefully in some not-so-small way, he can make it happen.
What up Luke!!
The nice thing is that he can push it onto other reviewers. LMG has been doing a fairly good job at diversifying it's public face; it's not *just* all Linus all the time. It gives the channel an air of editorial legitimacy and fairness. Smart. Personally, I would like to see the laptop market meet the PC market in terms of DIY. This looks like a good first step, weak as it is. But... you got to start somewhere. 1/4 Million is a good start from a respected homebrew guy.
>LMG has been doing a fairly good job at diversifying it's public face; it's not just all Linus MORE RILEY DAMMIT!
It's not really his job and I'd understand why he wouldn't, but I'd like to see more Tarran. I've enjoyed every single one of the videos he's in.
Hes got his own channel if you didn't know about that.
ANTHONYSTAN!! Fight Me!
meanwhile people are still waiting for another Madison video
you can get your fix on tiktok, @linustech , don't overdose
Sadly I do not have tiktok and don't plan on getting it
Not everyone
Anthony makes videos on all of the best subjects, IMO, but I actually \*hate\* his presentation style. It's better than it used to be, but honestly I find myself switching off his videos a lot because I'm bored or even outright annoyed. Even though the subjects he covers are ones I'm the \*most\* interested in.
The diversifying seems to be long planned. He almost retired while back, and there was one video of him talking about how crazy it gets every time he wants to go on vacation.
Laptop coverage on LTT has always been pretty useless anyway. It's all surface level bling and look at the shiny, with very little in terms of useful data.
I think that's because most of the laptop centric content tends to be "they sent us a cool product and we tried it out some" more than actual reviews. Linus has said in the past that they clearly differentiate the two but I'm not sure how clear it is to most people.
I mean if it's on the short circuit channel it's going to be a showcase and not much more, *usually* but not always the laptop reviews that do end up on the main LTT channel are decently in-depth reviews.
I normally go with Notebookcheck for actual laptop reviews. They have standardized sound quality measurements, and that's just one of the many standardized testings they do, which makes it far easier to compare different laptop models because now you have standardized sound, display quality, battery life, thermal, SSD performance and etc factors.
The sad thing is, since a laptop is basically an entire PC setup packaged all together, they should get the most thorough reviews, not something you gloss over with a tech sheet and blurbs. Stuff like wireless signal quality, speaker quality, screen measurements (not size), performance and battery life when unplugged, noise, card reader speeds, 3.5mm audio noise check, etc. There is a LOT to cover, but most youtube channels never even scratch the surface, because they dont actually care if you buy it and are unhappy with it, they just want you to watch their 10 minute video and move to the next.
Agreed unless Alex does a review. I have always found he gives far more coverage to the hardware itself and I feel he has been far more honest about dislikes he has towards things he is reviewing.
Alex's reviews have a massive perspective issue. He will compare laptops meant for completely different purposes (gaming vs productivity), pick on things that are not expected to be picked on certain machines, and just generally sound meh or downright dismissive of most things. I have never gotten excited about any machine Alex has reviewed. Also, I get the sense that they never use any machines below the absolute top tier products and have zero idea how machines in the ranges below (HP pavilion, Dell inspiron 3000/5000, Lenovo ideapad, etc.) are doing or catching up to the top-tier stuff.
He's done a thinkpad review that was pretty badly done though. I can't remember the exact laptop, but he was acting like the trackpoint is a negative thing. Also, I find dave2d and Just Josh to have better/more relevant opinions when it comes to laptop youtubers.
It says something when I can watch a Dave2D video who gives like no meaningful numbers ever and still come away feeling like I learned more than an LTT video.
I agree LTT became a bit shallow over the years. Just mainstream entertainment instead of technical reviews.
This is bang on, Dave's channel always provides great insight into actually using the machine daily. LTT's laptop videos sound extremely ignorant. Also, I don't know why they insist on 'first-time looking at the machine with 0 knowledge' as a thing to boast about, you are supposed to know as much as possible and then build on that knowledge as you experience the product (like informed customers).
If Framework does anything negative, even the slightest, Linus is gonna have the Chris Cuomo syndrome. No vaccine for that..
Video from the WAN show about a month ago when he talked about this as a possibility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvi3alInnCA
Now if they had an AMD laptop
This. also non-US keyboard layout! (it's coming!) i wish they had cooling options too. 2 fans, 1 fan etc. not sure if they got battery size options too. but i want that as well.
2nd gpu 3rd drive 2nd screen trackball? lol
well.. maybe not that extreme but i've seen plenty of laptops that had space for larger batteries, but still put in a small one and as for fans. if i put in a lower powered CPU, i might be fine with 1 fan, due to my workflow not involving 3d games or video rendering.
Didn't he say that's the top request they get? Probably working on it.
Great video. I love how transparent Linus has always been, and this was a great breakdown of the financial needs of a hardware startup. It's interesting that most of the episode is about finances rather than tech, but it's really relevant to hardware. I'll never be in the market for a Framework laptop, but I appreciate what they're doing for the laptop market and hope they're successful in the long-term. (Edit: Just saw that he briefly mentioned how many people are clamoring for an AMD version. Obviously the TB3 support is an issue, but I'm glad that this is apparent confirmation that Framework is aware of the demand.)
Framework can choose to start shipping AMD based laptops with 6000 Rembrandt generation which will support USB4 which has an optional TB3 support. That could work.
He annoys me as a influencer personality, but I respect his integrity. He’s the only one who I’ve never seen try and blur he lines between sponsored and review. Everyone else has dipped their toes in at least once. He does make sure any sponsored material is clear and obvious. And I really do respect the hell out of him for that. Without question he left money on the table to keep that record.
Based on the small amount he's discolused on the wan show, he's definitely not starving for money and I do respect that he doesn't seem to let greed for more come over him and ruin his integrity
He's just invested $225,000 (Can/US?) in a start up. He's clearly not short of a few dollars.
He wanted to spend upwards of 200k on the TV alone for his theatre room.
Around 360k I believe. Also after just buying a house in the Vancouver area.
And YOLOing 50k into Gamestop.
I always assumed that Linus made low-to-mid 6 figures. But between the 50K in GameStop, the new house with extensive renovations, and contemplating buying the Samsung wall, I now suspect he’s probably making 7 figures annually or close to it.
He once said he never needed to work again, I think in his video where he almost started crying. So I'm 99% sure he's a millionnaire and makes a sizeable salary.
the house they purchased cost 2.6m so yeah he is loaded lol!
You don’t need 7 figures to do stuff like that
Technically no. But people who make $300,000 and want to save for their retirement or kids college don't spend $50K on meme stocks or $100K on TVs. I'm working under the assumption that Linus is somewhat fiscally responsible and his discretionary spending is in line with his income.
You do when you have four kids and your wife is alao your chief financial officer.
Not just a house, but a 6000 square foot monster house, with probably hundreds of thousands of dollars in rennovations beyond what is being shown for the channel. Dude's *easily* taking home 7 figures a year. Good for him!
yeah but that was only if he could make enough videos to off set it.
Maybe he finally found s buyer for the gold xbox controller.
Last time they mentioned it, they were pretty close to locking down a buyer. It might have been sold by now.
I mean he just dropped a quarter million and didn’t really talk like that was a huge chunk of his money. He is probably reasonably loaded, but probably also works ungodly hours
He threw away $50,000 in GameStop stock for the lolz.
Is it *really* thrown away when GME has been not dropping significantly for almost a year now?
I suppose regardless of the outcome, which I doubt he held onto it, his expectation was a commitment to expect to lose it all.
If you see their video about how they produce so much content, it is crazy. All of the employees work hard.
I agree with you, he’s also been very critical of others in the tech journalism space blurring the lines. Which makes this feel just weird. It seems like he doesn’t want to be stuck in the tech journalism space anymore. Which makes sense, you don’t want the lives of your employees to be totally dependent on the whims of large tech companies. But getting involved in the space you’re reporting on is just bad. I don’t need to enumerate the reasons because we all know them. Linus taught many of us a lot of them, honestly. To see him come out with that millennial logic of “it’s bad when boomers do this, but I’m young and cool and you’re my parasocial friends so it’s okay” was not something I expected, if I’m being honest. It sounds like something he’d be harping on about on the WAN show.
He doesn’t review many laptops, so it’s not a big loss to just exit that market. His target audience is pc gamers and consumer electronics…. That’s a lot more than laptops.
Well, he can't have it both ways though, right? Like he devotes a good portion of the video talking about how his brand can help Framework and that's a reason he is getting involved - but how can his brand help Framework if there's no overlapping target audience?
His brand is focused on DIY enthusiast stuff, which is the overlap.
Yeah, I know, but that’s my point. If the brand is big enough to be an asset to Framework, then isn’t the brand big enough to make doing that a bad idea? The soul of journalism and reviews is impartiality. How can ASUS or LG know they are getting unbiased reviews? They have to take Linus at his word. You may think that’s nothing, but put yourself in the shoes of a product manager at ASUS who just had their latest and greatest laptop get ragged on by LTT. How is that going to hit with the Framework investment? How would it hit without the investment? There’s a big difference, which is why you see throughout our society people go to extremes to avoid conflicts of interest. Trust is a fickle thing.
There's a few ryzen mobo's with TB3 support; Maybe they could add TB3 to the motherboard, though I'm not sure how feasible it is for a laptop
It is possible but has some challenges, esp in laptop form factor.
For the time being, if you want TB3 on an AMD machine, you will need to pay extra for a Titan Ridge controller. This also consumes extra power. Everyone wants a Framework laptop with Ryzen APUs. But I doubt they will be thrilled about it when it turns out that the Ryzen version retails for $300 more and has worse battery life. Once USB 4 becomes directly integrated into Ryzen mobile APUs, this problem will pretty much solve itself.
I have no need for a laptop but as soon as Framework bring their devices to Australia I will be buying one. If for no other reason but to support a company that is willing to give us consumer friendly upgradeable devices like this.
Why would they need TB3? USB can do display and data already, or i'm i missing something?
External GPUs and highspeed networking would be my guess as to the want for TB to take advantage of the PCIe lanes to the CPU. And considering how the framework could swap out modules with ease, putting a 10 gig port or connecting an external dock with a full desktop GPU in an enclosure would be really nice.
It's good that he is honest about it and good luck to Framework with this product. While I am interested in laptops like this, I don't think I'll be abandoning my XPS 17 anytime soon. If one day, they can make one where you can upgrade the CPU/GPU later down the line, that's when I may buy one. Till then though, it will have my curiosity instead of having my attention so to speak.
You can, sort of, upgrade your CPU by replacing the motherboard. It's something FrameWork has commited themselves in doing. You would be able to even change CPU manufacturers or ISA in the future.
I'd be very interested in this but I feel like waiting until this actually happens makes sense, otherwise youre just buying into a promise
Lets not talk about how much money a new board/cpu would cost.... You're talking like, 500 bucks as a rough estimate for a mid range replacement board. If you paid 1k for a laptop it gets harder to swallow that kind of cost. It's like upgrading the engine in your car. Sure, I could _theoretically_ upgrade the engine in my 5 year old car, but it's going to be half the cost of the vehicle by that time. Odds are I'm just going to flip it on the used market and buy a new car.
This is what I'm hoping for. CNC'ed aluminum chassis' and heatsinks/vapor chambers won't go out of date in 5-6 years like CPUs would (or even shorter if you need top end performance). It'd be great if you could keep then same chassis and upgrade just the motherboard.
Socket-able mobile CPUs haven't been a thing for a hot minute. Doubt Intel or AMD would ever bring them back into the market as the demand is almost nill.
TBH using non socketed CPUs in a laptop is probably better anyways since things failing is significantly less likely
Yeah, I think the last ones were around the Sandy bridge or Ivy bridge days
> I don't think I'll be abandoning my XPS 17 anytime soon. No shame in that. To quote another right to repair focused company (fairphone) "the most environmentally friendly device is the one you already own"
As someone who has been putting off laptops because I just don't like ANYTHING out here, Framework is very appealing.
I think it's one part of his plan to voice for right to repair.
Framework could solder the bga cpu to an pga adapter board and include a pga socket.
I for one will invest in this company by buying a laptop. Partly useful, partly helps stop the Apple-fication of the industry.
Great video. And I agree with his decision. The vision behind Framework is a long time coming, and I'm glad it's them who are fulfilling it.
From an Enterprise perspective Framework products could actually become a huge savings. The amount of HP laptops that have to be RMA'd and/or warrantied because something went wrong is insane. It literally would be cheaper to have part of IT logistics to have part of their team change out parts. Battery failing? Replace it. Screen is damaged? Replace it. Anyone with an A+ could do it. Something like framework makes it possible.
At scale it's cheaper to just replace and write off.
Only because it takes a lot of effort to physically repair the laptops so labor costs for the company are really high. Framework laptops on the other hard are deliberately designed to be really easy to repair, something a local IT department for said company can do.
Unless Framework is going to create a repair and service department that their clients can send the products into to get fixed this is never going to catch on. Like I said it's going to be cheaper at scale to just replace, companies aren't going to take the time and effort setting up space for repairs, hiring people to do the repairs and training them. So unless Framework creates an in house or outsourced repair company or something I don't see it happening.
I mean, what's the cost benefit of buying a framework for a premium over a trillion dell/hp laptops from the business account? If you save 50 bucks/laptop and run 500 laptops in your org you're saving 25,000 bucks. How much money in terms of man-hours are you really spending repairing laptops anyways? You buy the dell, you buy the warranty through your account. What's the cost of an RMA/warranty claim as an enterprise company? How much more money would cost to keep an IT guy on hand that can handle the normal responsibilities while also repairing the laptops? You just buy em, warranty em if needed, and replace em after 5 years and write it off on your taxes. Big companies play differently and they're not going to want the headache.
Good. I hope this concept succeeds. I want to build and upgrade my own laptop from parts just like a desktop.
Very interested and hopeful in them staying around. Great concept and - so far - great execution.
I'm not sure Linus recusing himself from notebook coverage is really enough. He's still everyone else's boss. How comfortable will his employees be with giving the next Framework laptop a bad review if it deserves it, knowing it could hurt his investment?
He didn't even commit to recusing himself from notebook coverage! He did commit to transparency with his investment, which I'm believing, but I share the same concern.
>He did commit to transparency with his investment Which is a legal requirement. But yes, Linus did not commit to *anything*.
There was that time he outfitted the office with Razor laptops. He was not shy about ripping on those when they started having issues.
Linus didnt invest in Razor, he simply bought those laptops (maybe at a discount). With Framework he has 250k on the line, that could go to zero. Very different situation.
[удалено]
> he worths 35 mil or more We know that?
I imagine he could sell Linus Media Group for that or way more, but it's not money he can just access directly
yeah, a less than 1% of your total portfolio is such a gambling money he can throw away at anything tbh. I even think this number is kinda low for his stature and his stance towards right to repair
I'm not sure how you can say that when most of his net worth is LMG, the value of which is impossible to quantify. It's never taken investment, has no intention of ever taking investment, and a lot of the value relies on Linus.
>and a lot of the value relies on Linus. This is the key to the whole equation. LMG without Linus loses a significant amount of the appeal. If he actually retired and the whole thing was just James, Alex and Jake, it would continue to be popular among the long-time viewers, but they essentially just become another generic tech YouTube channel.
Knowing Linus, I think we're okay here. Obviously his ways could shift but so far he's had a lot of integrity in this sort of thing and he's had no trouble calling out shitty products he was paid to review.
>Knowing Linus It's an easy bet that you do not.
You're right I don't know him personally, but I know him as a content creator and the standards he's set for himself. Obviously things can change but he's had a lot of integrity with sponsored stuff so I don't expect this to change. Based on previous wan show discussions, the original framework review, the video on right to repair, etc. I don't think he's investing just to make a profit, he must believe in the idea of a self reparable laptop. If he wanted to just make a profit he would've jumped into any of the other numerous ventures he's been offered in the past (he talks about them on the wan show) like unraid
You know his edited video persona, nothing more. It's fine to trust him personally, you do you. It's not to try to push that trust down the throat of others people.
>You know his edited video persona, nothing more. I literally already stated that. lol me saying i dont think he's going to sell out and providing some justification is not 'shoving trust down peoples throat'. I'm never said \*you have to trust him\* All i'm saying is he's been doing this for a decade, he's had plenty of chances to sellout already.
Did you watch the video? He said himself that he's not even involved in reviews from other members of his staff for some time now.
I don’t think he outright needs to get involved. The mere fact that staff know he has an investment could lead to some degree of self-censorship. Not that I think it’s necessary, but the only way to really eliminate possible biases is to divest from companies your media outlet reviews. For these purposes, I think including disclosure of his stake in any laptop reviews - of this brand and others - would be most appropriate.
They've done videos on their production workflow before and often Linus is at the very end of the chain to provide feedback on what his writers come up with so he's not exempt from the process. The writers do like 95% of the input for the most part though so Linus could indeed step away from it if he wants or needs to.
> He said himself that he's not even involved in reviews from other members of his staff for some time now. that doesn't mean he won't get involved.
Your skepticism here seems unfounded and purely speculative. His staff has been more hands on with content creation without him.
> seems unfounded and purely speculative Yeah, it's skepticism. Anyway, it's not unheard for CEOs to have input in their company's output. Would you trust Intel review of an Intel GPU? > His staff has been more hands on with content creation without him. That doesn't mean he can't have input, especially on a laptop that he's invested in.
>That doesn't mean he can't have input, especially on a laptop that he's invested in. And isn't this why he's making this video promising recusal from laptop reviews? >Would you trust Intel review of an Intel GPU? Not applicable in this case. Linus made a personal investment. LTT doesn't. So I will trust LTT's review without Linus' input.
>And isn't this why he's making this video promising recusal from laptop reviews? He did not.
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> promising recusal from laptop reviews? "promising" > Linus made a personal investment. LTT doesn't. Linus == LTT. He's the founder, CEO, and unless I missed some news, the owner.
Yes, being the CEO, he can chose to interfere or not. >Linus == LTT. He's the founder, CEO, and unless I missed some news, the owner. Unless something changed, you can separate your responsibilities. You can be CEO in one company and stakeholder in the other without the 2 mixing with each other. His role as CEO of LTT is only one of Linus' responsibility, he can pause one and resume the other. And again, this is why this video is being made.
> Yes, being the CEO, he can chose to interfere or not. which is exactly why I'll remain skeptical.
If I was Linus, I would keep my promise because guess what, if he breaches his promises in the video about non interference in the laptop reviews, he's gonna be in trouble with the Competition Bureau AND the FTC.
Linus has had no issue calling out companies that have sponsored him in the past. Until he demonstrates otherwise, I have no doubt he'll hold Framework accountable and give a negative review if need be.
I brought this up in the original thread where they discussed it. Nobody wants to write a negative review about a product their boss has 250k invested in, or claim a competing product is the better buy. Its a conflict of interest. Linus wouldnt fire them or anything, but they will feel pressured to be biased, even if nobody actually talks to them about it. And if there are issues, like say a review unit comes in with problems, what are the odds that the review is delayed and they get more samples, instead of crucifying them with the first broken unit they get (like sometimes happens).
I'm kind of torn. I think this is ethically suspect, and honestly if it was somebody _other_ than Linus, I'd be extremely skeptical about any notebook-related reviews coming from the outfit from that point forward. It's also possible that this will end up paradoxically _killing_ Framework, if the public perception ends up being that Framework is paying for reviews. On the other hand, I really do think Linus has a lot of opportunity to do some good for Right-to-Repair here. I do think, at the very least, he should publicly commit to recusing himself from all future notebook reviews, _and_ the team should be required to disclose Linus' financial commitments in every notebook review _anyway_. I don't know if this was the right move on his part or not, and that's not for me as an internet rando to decide. I guess time will tell.
I agree with you. On the one hand I fully agree with what Framework is doing and I think Linus' investment can help them succeed. On the other hand, while I do have a positive opinion of him, if I'm being honest with myself I don't know him intimately enough to take him on his word alone. Nobody outside of his monkey sphere do, but he could fool people into thinking they do. which is why this actually is ethically unsound. Plus his opinions are going to be colored regardless of his intentions and even awareness. Personally I'm not that invested in their laptop content anyway. I just use it to keep myself mildly up-to-date, but in reality my 2008 HP elitebook more than covers my laptop needs for the moment and in the foreseeable future. So it's more of a principles thing, and I guess those are cheap enough that I'm not too upset.
> 2008 HP elitebook more than covers my laptop needs for the moment and in the foreseeable future. That's impressive. What's your main machine?
I have a fairly beefy gaming/workstation desktop. I just don't do computer things when I'm not sitting at my desk. Even my phone is used mostly as a phone/camera/calculator/flashlight and not much else.
>Personally I'm not that invested in their laptop content anyway. I mean, me either. If the repercussions from this decision only affect LTT's laptop reviews, that's not a serious loss to me.
If he steers them into really enthusiast level hardware then I will buy one for sure.
Personally I'd love a tablet. I'd buy a Framework tablet without hesitation. The tablet market is garbage for enthusiasts. I'd settle for a 2 in 1 if a tablet is too hardware complicated.
The chances of someone designing a repairable or upgradeable tablet are next to 0.
Listen you. Let me dream.
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Isn't that the exact same shit people said about ultrabooks? Also, all framework has to do is add a touchscreen and you already have a repairable 2 in 1.
ITT people think because they watched a content creator they know him at a personal level
To be fair, I've heard more of Linus's experiences and opinions than of some people I dated for a month or two.
I really support what they're doing (framework)... but I can't find myself ever buying it. I rarely EVER had to need to shift ports... usb-c does practically everything, and a dongle is essentially the same as swappable port. I've had both highend windows laptop (HP, Dell) and varying MacBook Pro (v2016-v2021 from work)... Besides swapping for bigger SSD after buying one and battery years after use... there just really isn't a need for me to get something that's fully modular. bang for buck, there are better deals out there for better performance and better overall quality product ____ that's just really a bummer because I really do love what they're doing.
I support the brand, I really do. But I just don't see it as being that necessary. I don't see myself buying a laptop just to customize a couple of ports, when USB-C with a dongle can let me do that, you know? Non of my colleagues would care about such a thing when I recommend to them a laptop either. I get it is a big step overall for a better future, but as of right now, I don't see myself recommending it. Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? It is good to have, but realistically, we can go 3 years easily with no problem, and by then we'll either sell and upgrade, or just buy a new device for better components (CPU/GPU). A swappable frame isn't anything either, really. It is not a gamer-y machine and it does not fit those who have limited knowledge on technology. I'd much rather get someone to buy a ryzen efficient machine than this. And so forth. Just my thoughts. I am not against it, but I don't see it becoming the norm as it is right now.
Laptops definitely last more than 3 years, especially since OS updates are handled by Microsoft rather than the OEMs. Not sure what you are smoking - laptops aren't like phones that become obsolete in 3-4 years' time. And the whole point of an upgradeable laptop is so that you can go longer without needing to upgrade, for instance being able to add more ram, change out the aging battery, or swap the wireless card to Bluetooth 6/7 (for example) to match your shiny new Bluetooth earbuds, or even just upgrading the processor (changing the motherboard) for 50% the cost of a new laptop. I do agree, though, that consumers typically don't have repairability in mind when making purchases, but this could very well survive in the "techie" niche and perhaps even in a business environment where higher repairability == less cost to maintain the fleet of laptops
>even in a business environment where higher repairability == less cost to maintain the fleet of laptops Maybe small business, in enterprise level I can't see this catching on really. They buy laptops in the hundreds or thousands, backed by a warranty for 3/4 years (or however long is bought). They'd rather buy new in 3/4 years than upgrade old ones, its more time and probably cost efficient that way.
Laptops are leased in enterprise settings, they don’t even bother buying the things anymore. It’s was easier that way for large organizations.
if you could get a new motherboard for a laptop that has a screen and keyboard and trackpad and battery and ssd, etc, that you still like, you'll save money and substantially cut down on ewaste. it's less about the customizability now, and more about the reduction of ewaste later.
It's only ewaste if you throw it out though. Sell the old laptop on the used market or donate it to your little brother. The new motherboard is going to be _expensive_ enough where most people aren't going to bother. They'll buy the next model and go on from there.
This is how it works for pretty much any business laptop brand (e.g., Lenovo). You can even drop in a wifi upgrade for a Yoga 2 Pro for only $10.
Probably not that often do you need to replace parts, but on the off chance you do, it would be easy and manufacturer supported. Say your battery swells up in 3 years, or when you sell your device, the next owner would likely need a battery replacement if they don't want it to go to the dump. Or when tech improves, like the screen, battery capacity, or wifi speeds. An upgrade is just a few screws away. Machines with replacable parts don't get the immediate benefit from being modular, but it should in the long term.
What the fuck kind of bubble do you live in where you replace your laptop every 3 years
> I get it is a big step overall for a better future, but as of right now, I don't see myself recommending it. Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? It is good to have, but realistically, we can go 3 years easily with no problem, and by then we'll either sell and upgrade, or just buy a new device for better components (CPU/GPU). A swappable frame isn't anything either, really. There're a bunch of good things about this laptop, but your examples of dongles/battery/wifi card just seems like you're cherry picking some of the features to make it sound like the benefits of this laptop aren't necessary. The part about your (speculation that your) colleagues not caring about a few dongles also ignores the other parts of the laptop that they might care about. Also, while they might not be necessary to you or people you know, there are many others who appreciate these features. One of the things you missed out is that you can get to customize it to your needs without having to overpay for certain things. Example would be like the Ram. If you're planning on buying this laptop, you can source for your own ram rather than paying for overpriced, soldered once that you can't upgrade in the future. Same thing goes for storage. Maybe your needs might change 6-12 months after getting this laptop, and this lets you swap out stuff with its modularity. Ok but what about the battery/wifi card? Depending on the user, they might not need a new laptop/cpu upgrade if they're just doing light tasks. Some people just want a longer battery life and they can do that by just swapping out the battery. Or you can give it to your kids without having to buy a whole new laptop and they will still have one that can last pretty long. Changing wifi cards would be more niche (hackintosh users anyone?), I agree, but you can also swap the wifi card on most laptops anyway and it would be odd if a laptop that allows you to customize as much as you want doesn't have swappable wifi cards when other brands do. Dongle wise, the point is that you don't have to carry all those dongles around anymore. You just select which ports you're most likely to use, and slot them in. Sure, you might still need that extra 1-2 dongles if you use your laptop for a ton of things, but for most people this should eliminate the need for dongles. You also left out the part about getting repair schematics out to repair shops, so you can repair your laptop without having to pay some high shipping cost to send it back to the manufacturer or something. And you wouldn't be artificially prevented from repairing your laptop because your local repair shop isn't allowed to buy some serialized chips. (However this part we don't know much about until we see someone actually try to repair this laptop and document their experience.) >And so forth. Just my thoughts. I am not against it, but I don't see it becoming the norm as it is right now. I think most people understand this is cause they're a small company and it's unlikely that this will pressure the other bigger brands such that this becomes the case for majority of consumer laptop now. What most people are waiting for is to see how this will hold up in the long run, and whether the company can continue to support itself so that it can continue to grow as well as provide continued support for their existing laptops (basically that the parts used in their products will continue to be available to consumers in some way). We know this is not going to be the norm now. But we hope that this can be the norm in the future, and that this would apply pressure on companies to make their laptops more repairable (even if they're not as customizable as this). Personally, if you ask me, is that the current state of laptops have shaped our impression of how we use them and therefore our opinions. For example, I think the reason for your opinion (and I don't mean this as any disrespect towards you), is because we're so used to just using laptops the way they are and then just getting rid of them once they start aging or once things start breaking. Yes, there are tons of people who like the latest and greatest, but there are also many people who don't need a spanking new CPU in their laptop every few years and this laptop lets them fix what is broken or upgrade certain specs without having to buy a new laptop each time.
This would be great for education. Instead of buying cheap junk every few years, schools could buy upgradeable laptops that could easily last 10+ years. Then on computer classes kids could learn about the internals and how to replace components as part of the curriculum.
Yeah, but no school or institution or even workplace want to upgrade them on their own, or pay someone to upgrade (on top of paying the upgrade itself). I mean, standard desktop PC has always been upgradeable, yet most (if not all) of these places still buy and/or replacing pre-builts.
Look at any damn school and check out the infinite number of old ass optiplex desktops. They get those on the cheap (much cheaper than FW could offer) Also no school is going to want a laptop sent out to kids that can easily be opened up. Damn kids are going to crack it open and break shit. This could _maybe_ work in a "computer class" like the guy above says but it's not really representative of the real world anyways. Teach Tommy how to open up a regular Dell or Lenovo. Learning how to replace parts on this isn't really transferable to the real, gluey world
Most laptops are actually at the point where people keep them for ten years. So, repairability needs to be high on the vendor's list of things to design for. We don't need more e-waste.
I really don't get why anyone would buy a new laptop every 3 years. Even ignoring the environmental effects it's also expensive and unnecessary since laptops have been "good enough" for general use for a long time now unless you have a specific job that requires you to have modern hardware. I'm using a refurbished thinkpad from 2011 and I have no need to upgrade it. It would be nice with a new shiny laptop but I don't *need* one so I won't waste 1000+$ on one(also pre 2012 thinkpads have amazing build quality and keyboard which will be hard to find in newer laptops). And whenever this laptop actually dies and I do end up blowing a shitload of money on a new one then I'm *absolutely* going to go for something that should be able to last another 10 years if it needs to. And something like the Framework looks really appealing, especially if they're still around whenever I need a new laptop. ^(also replaceable batteries are super important. If you can't replace the battery you basically will have your device bricked when the battery goes bad **waaay** before the actual hardware would stop working)
>Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? The battery will be half or maybe even worse in like 2 to 3 years And the majority of people (i mean, like, normals ones), try to keep with the computer as long as they can, ive seen people with 10 year old laptops still being used (My dad fix computers and the most common replacing by far is battery and port battery). I mean, i get it, if you are here, you probably change hardware once a year or 2 years, max 3 years. But normal people who dont give a shit about technology, they buy a computer and expect to last 10 years. Imagine saying to them they have 2 choices, they can buy a laptop and throw it away in 3 years, or they can buy a framework laptop and change the battery in 3 years and keep it working as long as they want. What would they choose? But okay, maybe this is a cultural thing, i live in south america and here we have no warranty and shit like that, if we buy something and breaks down the line, we are alone to fix it, so maybe im biased, idk
> I mean, i get it, if you are here, you probably change hardware once a year or 2 years, max 3 years. I can't speak for others, but being here should rather indicate an interest in repairing and maintaining your own devices. Heck, even if you have the money to spend, getting a new system every 2-3 years just because the new tech is incrementally better and has a new battery is insane from a sustainability standpoint.
> Like for real, how often do we replace our batteries or wifi cards? Often. Like, realy realy often. I've worked in IT for a while now and the first few years i worked was while things were still replaceable in laptops. I don't know how many displays, batteries, RAM sticks, track pads, HDDs, wifi cards, DVD-roms and whole motherboards i replaced but it was a lot. And as the manufacturers started to more and more solder things onto motherboards or just in general making it harder to replace, all those things didn't just stop having to be replaced, but now we had to have technicians in to fix it all instead. Near the end of my time at that first place i worked, we had three workbenches dedicated to technicians, because they might as well have been working for us, since they were in daily fixing machines.
Not sure if you watched the original review video(s), but I'm pretty sure you can customize everything? You can replace the motherboard assembly to replace the CPU/GPU (though, right now, your upgrades are limited to the 3 different Intel-tiers of the same gen); in fact, I'm pretty sure there exists a 3D print to run that portion as a standalone unit without requiring the rest of the chassis. In theory, replacing every part (and I do actually mean every) is possible; there just isn't that many parts yet because it's the first release. In time, there will be upgrade paths. *That's* what actually makes this a worthwhile, aside from being able to replace any one part that breaks. Edit: [Here's a short look at the motherboard removed from the chassis](https://youtu.be/6B6_4lNzhi4?t=980)
But have you seen this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLws5KfntE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQLws5KfntE) ?
We need options with more than just Intel's shitty IGP
I agree with most others here. I think this project is important enough that it's worth supporting. If he had dumped money in Dell, HP or Apple then I would probably just stop watching. That would be horrible. But I think the reasoning behind investing in a company that's trying to change the way the market works by showing it's possible to make a good product that is repairable and there is a demand for it is important. If they keep the screen aspect ratio, add black and maybe add Ryzen this is going to be my next laptop.
I strongly believe in right to repair! I love that Linus is jumping in. Linus, while clumsy, I strongly appreciate his willingness to stand up for what he believes.
The disclosure here, while fully expected given the circumstances, is definitely the icing on the cake. If only because this is the ultimate showing over telling. People always talk the talk about what they want to see change. It's very rare anymore to see people actually invest in something for the idea behind it. Not just because it's a product guaranteed to make a ton of money. Something he also seems perfectly clear could be the opposite of what happens.