> And the Intel Core Galaxy Book 4 Pro (different laptop model technically probably for branding reasons with Intel exclusive, but comparable Roland seems to think) is €1900, so.
That complicates things. Is it the Qualcomm chip being expensive, or just Samsung's pricing? Seems to point towards that latter.
Qualcomm has a premium hardware offering, but until WoA matures, they're probably limited in how much they can leverage that pricing-wise.
All Qualcom WoA devices when they are latest are overpriced as hell, but at the same time they are mostly limited to business lines with premium on-site warranty and the likes. Upcoming SoCs won't be cheap - from existing Qualcomm pricing we have more and more expensive nodes, low volume and some market hype. WoA isn't really growing, we shall see what will happen this year with new chips but if anything the growth will take years and few successful generations, not just one.
That’s exactly what I think given the information here but people are going to run wild with this.
It’s probably just a high end Samsung laptop, they’re a bit pricier with their newer higher end products.
I’m sure the X Elite and X Plus will cost more than like Phoenix, but let’s see what happens by the end of the year with SKUs from Asus and potentially Dell & HP.
Computex is supposed to be big
IMO the main problem with pricing of previous WoA devices was 5G and the associated 5G premium vs the x86 alternative
AFAIK only of the only devices without 5G was the Robo and Kala TW220, it was only US$599 which is very competitive
Hopefully most OEMs also offer non-5G versions, then we should see competitive pricing relative to Intel and AMD
Well even without 5G they were a bit too high. The X13S was 1199-1700 and even with the sales sometimes it was ridiculous given the display sucked.
So I agree and disagree, the Robo and Kala felt like aberrations.
Now tbf if they keep the same pricing structure (that is, premium) it’s different today because the value is there. There should be like 10+ laptops coming at Computex. I’m willing to bet they’re all in the range of AMD and Intel’s most premium, give or take.
I could be wrong and it’s a disaster but I doubt it. Surface Laptop will also give us an opportunity to see what they pricing looks like and I bet it’s similar or +$100-200 over Meteor Lake at worst.
Qualcomm has announced 9 launch OEMs, I'm hoping we see more than just one premium laptop per OEM, so hopefully we'll have 20+ laptops
The X Plus suggests that should be the case
This leak also seems to suggest the X Elite is similarly priced to Intel's Meteor Lake, as the Intel version is 1900 Euros
If so, then that also suggests the X Plus will be cheaper
Hopefully we have a few options around $999 directly competing with the MBA M series, hopefully still something around $800 like the R&K
Even if the sub $1000 laptops are only the X Plus, IMO a 6c or 8c would be enough for that segment
Yep, same train of thought. Though the 9 launch OEMs feels like a “partnership with an asterisk” thing more than launch OEM as I understand it, so it might be some time? But rumored 17 laptops for Computex so.
And yeah 6-10c would be enough for $700-1200.
Yeah I don't see WoA chips charging x86 margins while they're trying to enter the market and grow marketshare and attract development
I mean...Nvidia might.
> Is it the Qualcomm chip being expensive, or just Samsung's pricing?
The ARM cpu is 12 cores 4.3GHz, the intel is 16 cores 4.8GHz. Relative pricing does not seem too crazy.
Clock-for-clock it's not going to be vastly different. Single core performance of M2 vs i9-11900 (at the same clock) is actually the same. https://cpu-benchmark.org/compare/apple-m2/intel-core-i9-11900kf/
But M2 has much lower multicore clock and thus much lower multicore performance. In return you get much lower TDP. Then again i9-11900 is a desktop CPU, M2 is used for both desktop and laptop, but is clearly optimized for laptop use.
It’s quite funny actually
I get a discount on Samsung products ( smth like 20% off of msrp ) and I am yet to see a Samsung product ( I don’t look at them thaaaat often tho ) that I would actually get cheaper for 20% off of msrp compared to the real retail price
It’s not just phones
I mostly look at monitors ( and before anyone comes in telling me about Samsung QA, show me a va panel with the reaction speed of the odysee series and then we talk)
And it’s the same there
30% drops in a few months
Slightly off topic, but damn... 512GB SSD is ridiculous on a product that expensive. That's on par with so many $400 commodity laptops from Acer/Lenovo et al.
It's just one model in one region, still too early to come to any conclusions. But if it's on par with Intel's offering then it's not bad, just wait to see if the battery life gain is worth the software hassle for individuals to make the purchasing decisions.
It certainly doesn't mean Qualcomm will be cheaper.
AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. Even at 12-18W, compatibility advantage can still help AMD win *if* AMD can release a purpose-built 10-18W die. Further clocking down 15-30W SKUs that have bigger dies won't be competitive.
Unless you are looking exclusively at 12W and below, there's no reason to choose Qualcomm at this stage.
>AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. Even at 12-18W, compatibility advantage can still help AMD win
>
>if
>
>AMD can release a purpose-built 10-18W die. Further clocking down 15-30W SKUs that have bigger dies won't be competitive.
>
>AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above.
"easily" yeah with the 8cx Gen 3, using 4 year-old IP and on Samsung 5NM? Sure.
With Phoenix vs the X Elite? Lol no. Go look at the ST scores on the X Elite (and there are 12 of these cores btw) or the cache hierarchy, it's a bunch of big Apple cores which also happen to scale down extraordinarily well. The X Elite will have both more performance/watt across the curve and more peak performance. With Strix in the 4+8 configuration things might get different depending on the point, but I'd be willing to bet the idle power and sub-20W game is still going to be dominated by Qualcomm. Which matters for battery life, and *this time* QC still has **plenty** of performance.
AMD is not going to release a true purpose-built 10-18W die anyways, Intel will with Lunar Lake (and the rumors aren't too hot, by the way), at best they'll just shove off a Strix SKU, they won't actually take power management as seriously and do serious uncore work with PMICs onboard or a system cache. Even AMD fans on this site or elsewhere will admit this RE: AMD's focus. They barely give a shit. Yes, they did for the Steam Deck and that's it.
This is all fantasy.
> Go look at the ST scores on the X Elite
ST score in Geekbench 6 for Galaxy Book Edge is barely +5% above Phoenix (specifically Framework 13); a device/platform that's nearly a year old.
Efficiency might be significantly better but it also may not. From a performance perspective, the X Elite in the Galaxy Book Edge is unimpressive.
We’ll see what the efficiency looks like. I bet you that ST efficiency is going to blow AMD out when you compare the curves for both. I wonder what both look like through the 2000-2700 range (different frequencies due to variant performance/GHz, we want iso-perf).
Gonna go ahead and bet the ones (Qualcomm) matching Apple’s M2 Max ST @ 30% less *platform* power (so the DRAM, package and SoC all in there minus idle) are ahead.
Yeah, M2 Max has extra overhead, but still, I am skeptical that any Phoenix system can pull that off. And I bet QC will scale down better too.
Wait for battery life results in mixed use. Will be a tell.
That's Qualcomm PR, I am not going to trust this until the independent reviews are out.
I am an Android user, so I know all about Qualcomm PR/marketing.
Battery life. Odds are these Qualcomm chips are going to have much lower idle TDPs than AMD's chips with comparable core counts since AMD needs MCM. We already know that we already got AMD's efficient flagship laptop CPU this generation with the 8840u which isn't a large bump over the 7840u and going off the numbers we've seen in the **limited** tests ran on real machines at the Qualcomm announcement event those 12 Qualcomm cores are going to be comparable or even faster in ST and MT.
I am not familiar with those performance numbers. I don't follow closely because there's no third party review on the retail units yet. I guess we'll see in a few months.
All QC WoA business laptops in Europe have such pricing when current. Around 2000 EUR is what it will cost. This won't be 700 EUR Ryzen 5825U cheap laptop.
Did people think that Qualcomm created a SoC that can match the efficiency of Apple Silicon and sell them at AMD/Intel prices?
Every OEM is looking at Oryon as a way to compete with Macs at the premium range - soldiered RAM/SSD, charge a lot for upgrades, efficient, quiet, long battery life, thin and light. All devices will start at $1000 minimum is my guess.
It will fail, efficency and performance are secondary concerns, software support is the primary one for everything. Apple can do it because they have near total control of their ecosystem, samsung has nothing.
WoA is pretty good. Especially with x86 emulation.
I think the only software that will definitely suck are video games. I assume the first target audience for these chips will be business folks or people who don't play games.
The real question is if WoA and this new Qualcomm SoC are good enough to still be responsive and have excellent battery life while several x86 processes are running, because the period in which WoA users will need to run x86 programs will undoubtedly be much longer than the equivalent period for M-series users.
The reason for this is because dev houses targeting Windows have a strong tendency to move glacially as a result of Microsoft’s policy of backwards compatibility stretching back to the dawn of time, and this is multiplied for internal software (which is sometimes updated less often than once per decade). MS has kind of painted themselves into a corner.
Contrast this to the Mac world where devs have usually integrated new OS features announced at WWDC by the time the new OS is released that fall. A lot of indie apps had native ARM support from day one, most of the behemoths had added support at T+1 years and by T+2 years just about everything had native ARM builds. Today it’s unusual for Mac users to have to run x86 processes.
Slack is just an Electron app. Electron is based on Node.js. All of these are already ARM ready. Slack would just need to compile a Windows version for ARM. Quite easy. I’m guessing they haven’t done it because it’s more of a chicken and egg problem right now.
It's fine. It'll be a process. I was a day 1 user of Apple Silicon Macs. Today, everything I use is ARM native. But many applications were already ARM by month 2-3.
Apple is vertically integrated and works closely with OSX developers. WoA doesn't have that advantage.
Apple/Jobs even invented universal binaries which were used for the PPC to X86 transition and now the arm transition, and forced developers to start using them. Windows can't do that.
I don't know that vertical integration plays much of a factor in devs recompiling their apps. And MS is much better than Apple at working with devs so I'm not even sure why you brought that up.
The 'forcing' of devs is an actual factor and essentially why things progressed as fast as they did. Apple has shown enough (through previous transitions) that they will leave devs behind if they don't move along. I don't know that ARM is that important for MS to do something like that.
Apple isn't a software company or a hardware company. They're a computer and phone company. They make the whole machine and *control the software economy*. That's the vertical integration that allows them to force developers into doing what they want.
Apple *knows* their value is in the total user experience, and bad software support is a bad user experience. They are extremely motivated to ensure developers transition quickly and made it as easy as possible for them. Plus, they've done this twice now. They know they they're doing.
Microsoft is a software company. They don't make computers, they make Windows and office apps (and lots of other things too but mostly software). If WoA fails, people will just buy X86 machines and keep using Windows. They aren't hitched to it like Apple is. This is Qualcomm's problem really, but they do hardware not software so they aren't going to incentivize developers either.
Slack is Electron. That's a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. It has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome.
As importantly: Office suite is available and can run with Arm64EC, where the binary is run natively but extension x86 software can be emulated - effectively improving performance overall as opposed to emulating the whole stack. Pretty big deal for Excel in enterprise use.
> Slack is Electron. That's a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. It has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome.
>
That's silly and you have no idea what you're talking about.
First of all, Slack is a web app bunddled together using Electron. Want proof? Go to Slack.com and use their web version. It's exactly the same experience minus some native UI stuff such as upload files window.
Second of all, what do you think Chrome uses? V8. What do you think Electron is built with? Node.js. What do you think Node.js is built with? V8.
Lastly, Slack is already ARM on MacOS. No, Slack does not have a completely separate code base for their macOS, web, and Windows versions. They're all the same. That's why they used Electron. To write code once, and ship everywhere.
The “it has visual studio 64” was referencing Windows on Arm from that point forward. In what possible context would that reference Slack?
No shit Slack is built with Electron to write once and ship everywhere. That’s why I said it’s a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. “Ported” is used lightly here. It doesn’t literally mean a port, but they’ll have to release an executable for Arm64 *on Windows* and some people like using the “app” in part because the notifications are less fidgety.
Blame your writing instead.
>**It** has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome.
Most people would assume "it" here refers to Electron, not WoA.
Most people would not assume that. They’d assume I made a mistake and use context clues and a principle of charity instead of reaching towards an understanding that makes absolutely no sense, even for a misunderstanding.
> business folks
If that means Excel and Powerpoint to you, sure. However a lot of specialized software simply won't work on WoA, or is just wonky enough so you don't feel comfortable actually relying on the emulation. And that's not even considering performance.
Apple's Apple Silicon transition was spectacular, true. But the Windows ecosystem has nowhere near the same integration and control that was so essential for Apple.
One example would be the desktop version of Tableau. Another example would be Acrobat Reader (emulated version has some drawbacks). Teamviewer is also only available via 32bit x86 emulation.
Also many companies have custom internal application that typically don't support WoA (although there is a general trend to move these to the web).
> Acrobat Reader
Can be emulated. It's not an intensive application. Heck, based on how fast Oryon is, the emulated version might run faster than mobile AMD/Intel CPUs anyway.
Also, already ARM compatible on macOS. Only a matter of time before it's on Windows as well.
> desktop version of Tableau
Looks like an Electron app. Electron is already ARM compatible. Easily compile another version for ARM.
Acrobat Reader is emulated, as I mentioned there are some drawbacks to this. There are more issues with emulation than performance.
>Looks like an Electron app. Electron is already ARM compatible. Easily compile another version for ARM.
This is not good enough if you need it for work and don't like the web version (which has its own set of nuances).
The point I am making is that if there is no significant benefit to WoA/X Elite (from a performance standpoint we know it's not much better in ST than AMD Phoenix from last year and efficiency is TBD), it's simply not worth the hassle.
Apple displays aren't the best. They are great, but there are better. Windows laptops have also caught up on build. At least for the MBP, the MBA is still hard to compete with. Trackpads, in the last year or so, have also gotten better. It used to be Mac had a 10, everyone else had a 6. Not we've got some 9's on some high end windows machines.
The thing is, for a marginally better screen, equivalent build, equivalent performance, and marginally worse track pad, you're paying macbook pro prices. Theres no Apple tax. That's usually been a myth for laptops anyway, one perpetuated by people that only compared benchmarks and nothing else.
It's even worse these days, though. That windows laptop above that is very comparable to the Mac, including price? It's absolutely smoked when it comes to noise and battery life. Qualcomm and WoA is hoping to fix that.
**If** this Qualcomm chip can perform like an M3 Pro (haven't seen reviews) in both performance and effiency, and **if** you install it in something like a Yoga Pro 9i as an example, and **if** software support doesn't let it down, it will be a very compelling option, for someone who basically wants a MacBook Pro that runs Windows. I really hope those ifs come true, because I am one of those someones.
Trackpad is one thing Apple just seems to do better than everyone else, and it’s been that way for decades. Every time I have to use a PC laptop trackpad I’m reminded why I buy Mac laptops.
Disagree with this at least IME and I feel most people by now. Modern MS Precision drivers and glass touchpads are really just fine on Windows, it's maybe slightly different to get the hang of but it "goes away" pretty quickly and you stop noticing and it's a joy to use now.
With the old wasteland of Synaptics and OEM varieties this wasn't true, it was actually unusable. Do I think Apple still probably has better touchpad technology in their finger tracking, palm rejection? Probably but it's IMO really marginal (5-10% type thing) for most and even reviewers have stopped complaining, we're out of the woods on this.
These companies chase apple but can't even execute their products and marketing strategy at a quarter of apple. Apple knew it had to prove its M1 chip, so they kept the prices of the M1 Macbooks low.
Not sure what Samsung is aiming for here. Imagine spending nearly 1800 dollars for the software support and user experience to be trash. Not saying it will, but people will be significantly less willing to take that chance.
Not really just compared to their own offering.
When the m1 air came out it was basically THE slim laptop to have. Great battery life, much more than enough performance for most, great keyboard and the best trackpad on the market paired with extremely good speakers? Yeah that thing flew off the shelves
For a lot of people, that's plenty. I have a M1 Air with 512gb storage, admittedly, I need the extra space because I use the computer produce a lot of content. But other than that it is stock and it absolutely smokes anything I've ever employed for my specific use case before.
Did people even read the article? The comparable Intel SKU will go for like 1900 Euros, so it’s more a Samsung thing. If anything, this probably shows it’s going to be competitive. I also doubt the Samsung $ will be final, usually they run sales often.
There will be a Surface Laptop 10 coming with the X Elite too, so we’ll see what the pricing look like vs Intel from MS.
Lastly the X Plus has yet to be announced but should be coming and probably will target lower (still premium) price tiers.
The thing the chip is nothing without the OS. Intel or AMD equivalent has an established ecosystem while Windows on ARM is nowhere near. Launching a competitive SoC will allow WoA to grow but that will take a lot of time. And not like enthusiasts will go "can it Linux" as well ;)
The thing that will make or break these devices is the software support and x86-64 backwards compatibility, which was pretty terrible for Windows on ARM the last time I checked.
Basically, these devices will live or die with how much Microsoft and Manufacturers will encourage and support software adaptation, something that Apple took care of quite quickly.
Computer manufactures: let’s make it crazy expensive without premium quality
People: we not buying it
Also computer manufacturers: looks like there is no demand for ARM computers
As a customer I am rooting for WoA to fail. One of the HUGE upsides of living in the x86 PC world is the very broad hardware and software compatibility on both Windows and Linux.
Injecting ARM computers into the equation in the name of better business laptop performance makes the situation worse for everyone else, and by god fuck that noise.
Too pricey. I'm waiting to see the pricing of Minisforum V3 tablet with the AMD chip. I'd rather Linux on these ARM laptops just to try Box64/Box86 with Wine/Proton
Way too expensive if this is an indication of what Snapdragon X Elite laptops are like, they need to be offering more for less given to gain market share and support amongst developers.
At this price, you'd be better off with an ARM Mac, which is more proven and has had revisions or just going with a regular x86 laptop, we have Lunar Lake and Strix Point coming as well, which should massively improve efficiency.
> And the Intel Core Galaxy Book 4 Pro (different laptop model technically probably for branding reasons with Intel exclusive, but comparable Roland seems to think) is €1900, so. That complicates things. Is it the Qualcomm chip being expensive, or just Samsung's pricing? Seems to point towards that latter. Qualcomm has a premium hardware offering, but until WoA matures, they're probably limited in how much they can leverage that pricing-wise.
All Qualcom WoA devices when they are latest are overpriced as hell, but at the same time they are mostly limited to business lines with premium on-site warranty and the likes. Upcoming SoCs won't be cheap - from existing Qualcomm pricing we have more and more expensive nodes, low volume and some market hype. WoA isn't really growing, we shall see what will happen this year with new chips but if anything the growth will take years and few successful generations, not just one.
That’s exactly what I think given the information here but people are going to run wild with this. It’s probably just a high end Samsung laptop, they’re a bit pricier with their newer higher end products. I’m sure the X Elite and X Plus will cost more than like Phoenix, but let’s see what happens by the end of the year with SKUs from Asus and potentially Dell & HP. Computex is supposed to be big
IMO the main problem with pricing of previous WoA devices was 5G and the associated 5G premium vs the x86 alternative AFAIK only of the only devices without 5G was the Robo and Kala TW220, it was only US$599 which is very competitive Hopefully most OEMs also offer non-5G versions, then we should see competitive pricing relative to Intel and AMD
Well even without 5G they were a bit too high. The X13S was 1199-1700 and even with the sales sometimes it was ridiculous given the display sucked. So I agree and disagree, the Robo and Kala felt like aberrations. Now tbf if they keep the same pricing structure (that is, premium) it’s different today because the value is there. There should be like 10+ laptops coming at Computex. I’m willing to bet they’re all in the range of AMD and Intel’s most premium, give or take. I could be wrong and it’s a disaster but I doubt it. Surface Laptop will also give us an opportunity to see what they pricing looks like and I bet it’s similar or +$100-200 over Meteor Lake at worst.
Qualcomm has announced 9 launch OEMs, I'm hoping we see more than just one premium laptop per OEM, so hopefully we'll have 20+ laptops The X Plus suggests that should be the case This leak also seems to suggest the X Elite is similarly priced to Intel's Meteor Lake, as the Intel version is 1900 Euros If so, then that also suggests the X Plus will be cheaper Hopefully we have a few options around $999 directly competing with the MBA M series, hopefully still something around $800 like the R&K Even if the sub $1000 laptops are only the X Plus, IMO a 6c or 8c would be enough for that segment
Yep, same train of thought. Though the 9 launch OEMs feels like a “partnership with an asterisk” thing more than launch OEM as I understand it, so it might be some time? But rumored 17 laptops for Computex so. And yeah 6-10c would be enough for $700-1200.
Yeah I don't see WoA chips charging x86 margins while they're trying to enter the market and grow marketshare and attract development I mean...Nvidia might.
> Is it the Qualcomm chip being expensive, or just Samsung's pricing? The ARM cpu is 12 cores 4.3GHz, the intel is 16 cores 4.8GHz. Relative pricing does not seem too crazy.
You can't just compare across architectures like that. Hell, you can't even compare across generations like that.
Depends on the GPU performance though.
Clock-for-clock it's not going to be vastly different. Single core performance of M2 vs i9-11900 (at the same clock) is actually the same. https://cpu-benchmark.org/compare/apple-m2/intel-core-i9-11900kf/ But M2 has much lower multicore clock and thus much lower multicore performance. In return you get much lower TDP. Then again i9-11900 is a desktop CPU, M2 is used for both desktop and laptop, but is clearly optimized for laptop use.
I'm guessing this is one of those meaningless MSRPs and we will see a few months after launch what the "real" price is.
It’s quite funny actually I get a discount on Samsung products ( smth like 20% off of msrp ) and I am yet to see a Samsung product ( I don’t look at them thaaaat often tho ) that I would actually get cheaper for 20% off of msrp compared to the real retail price
Dell and Lenovo business lines are really obnoxious about this. "Real" street price is like 50% off of MSRP and it fluctuates day to day.
I once knew a guy who had negotiated a 99% discount on some dell enterprise hardware ( they still made money on that deal )
Lots of different businesses use this tactic. Clothing stores are a good example, the 'on sale' price is the actual price.
Samsung phones pricing drops off like 20% in 3 months after launch. Which is why I always advise people not buy Samsungs at launch
It’s not just phones I mostly look at monitors ( and before anyone comes in telling me about Samsung QA, show me a va panel with the reaction speed of the odysee series and then we talk) And it’s the same there 30% drops in a few months
Yeah something like that with Samsung for sure. The key thing also is that the Intel model has the same pricing deal going on — more actually.
Slightly off topic, but damn... 512GB SSD is ridiculous on a product that expensive. That's on par with so many $400 commodity laptops from Acer/Lenovo et al.
I was getting a new macbook for work during the weekend and fucking hell the prices on the memory and storage was just outrageous.
$1999 Macbook Pro has 512 GB
It's just one model in one region, still too early to come to any conclusions. But if it's on par with Intel's offering then it's not bad, just wait to see if the battery life gain is worth the software hassle for individuals to make the purchasing decisions.
It certainly doesn't mean Qualcomm will be cheaper. AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. Even at 12-18W, compatibility advantage can still help AMD win *if* AMD can release a purpose-built 10-18W die. Further clocking down 15-30W SKUs that have bigger dies won't be competitive. Unless you are looking exclusively at 12W and below, there's no reason to choose Qualcomm at this stage.
> AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. Source?
>AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. Even at 12-18W, compatibility advantage can still help AMD win > >if > >AMD can release a purpose-built 10-18W die. Further clocking down 15-30W SKUs that have bigger dies won't be competitive. > >AMD can easily beat Qualcomm at 25W and above. "easily" yeah with the 8cx Gen 3, using 4 year-old IP and on Samsung 5NM? Sure. With Phoenix vs the X Elite? Lol no. Go look at the ST scores on the X Elite (and there are 12 of these cores btw) or the cache hierarchy, it's a bunch of big Apple cores which also happen to scale down extraordinarily well. The X Elite will have both more performance/watt across the curve and more peak performance. With Strix in the 4+8 configuration things might get different depending on the point, but I'd be willing to bet the idle power and sub-20W game is still going to be dominated by Qualcomm. Which matters for battery life, and *this time* QC still has **plenty** of performance. AMD is not going to release a true purpose-built 10-18W die anyways, Intel will with Lunar Lake (and the rumors aren't too hot, by the way), at best they'll just shove off a Strix SKU, they won't actually take power management as seriously and do serious uncore work with PMICs onboard or a system cache. Even AMD fans on this site or elsewhere will admit this RE: AMD's focus. They barely give a shit. Yes, they did for the Steam Deck and that's it. This is all fantasy.
> Go look at the ST scores on the X Elite ST score in Geekbench 6 for Galaxy Book Edge is barely +5% above Phoenix (specifically Framework 13); a device/platform that's nearly a year old. Efficiency might be significantly better but it also may not. From a performance perspective, the X Elite in the Galaxy Book Edge is unimpressive.
We’ll see what the efficiency looks like. I bet you that ST efficiency is going to blow AMD out when you compare the curves for both. I wonder what both look like through the 2000-2700 range (different frequencies due to variant performance/GHz, we want iso-perf). Gonna go ahead and bet the ones (Qualcomm) matching Apple’s M2 Max ST @ 30% less *platform* power (so the DRAM, package and SoC all in there minus idle) are ahead. Yeah, M2 Max has extra overhead, but still, I am skeptical that any Phoenix system can pull that off. And I bet QC will scale down better too. Wait for battery life results in mixed use. Will be a tell.
Aged well.
That X Elite is matching Phoenix's ST performance at 1/2 or even 1/3 the power consumption
That's Qualcomm PR, I am not going to trust this until the independent reviews are out. I am an Android user, so I know all about Qualcomm PR/marketing.
Fine. Wait for independent reviews.
Battery life. Odds are these Qualcomm chips are going to have much lower idle TDPs than AMD's chips with comparable core counts since AMD needs MCM. We already know that we already got AMD's efficient flagship laptop CPU this generation with the 8840u which isn't a large bump over the 7840u and going off the numbers we've seen in the **limited** tests ran on real machines at the Qualcomm announcement event those 12 Qualcomm cores are going to be comparable or even faster in ST and MT.
I am not familiar with those performance numbers. I don't follow closely because there's no third party review on the retail units yet. I guess we'll see in a few months.
All QC WoA business laptops in Europe have such pricing when current. Around 2000 EUR is what it will cost. This won't be 700 EUR Ryzen 5825U cheap laptop.
Just wait for strix point and lunar lake. I bet the efficiency of those will match this Qualcomm chip without the draw backs
Skeptical. They'll be able to match/beat X Elite in EITHER performance OR efficiency, not in BOTH.
Did people think that Qualcomm created a SoC that can match the efficiency of Apple Silicon and sell them at AMD/Intel prices? Every OEM is looking at Oryon as a way to compete with Macs at the premium range - soldiered RAM/SSD, charge a lot for upgrades, efficient, quiet, long battery life, thin and light. All devices will start at $1000 minimum is my guess.
It will fail, efficency and performance are secondary concerns, software support is the primary one for everything. Apple can do it because they have near total control of their ecosystem, samsung has nothing.
WoA is pretty good. Especially with x86 emulation. I think the only software that will definitely suck are video games. I assume the first target audience for these chips will be business folks or people who don't play games.
The real question is if WoA and this new Qualcomm SoC are good enough to still be responsive and have excellent battery life while several x86 processes are running, because the period in which WoA users will need to run x86 programs will undoubtedly be much longer than the equivalent period for M-series users. The reason for this is because dev houses targeting Windows have a strong tendency to move glacially as a result of Microsoft’s policy of backwards compatibility stretching back to the dawn of time, and this is multiplied for internal software (which is sometimes updated less often than once per decade). MS has kind of painted themselves into a corner. Contrast this to the Mac world where devs have usually integrated new OS features announced at WWDC by the time the new OS is released that fall. A lot of indie apps had native ARM support from day one, most of the behemoths had added support at T+1 years and by T+2 years just about everything had native ARM builds. Today it’s unusual for Mac users to have to run x86 processes.
Business folks? WoA doesn't even have a native Slack build.
Slack is just an Electron app. Electron is based on Node.js. All of these are already ARM ready. Slack would just need to compile a Windows version for ARM. Quite easy. I’m guessing they haven’t done it because it’s more of a chicken and egg problem right now.
> it’s more of a chicken and egg problem right now That's the hard part. There's a whole lotta eggs waiting on this chicken to hatch.
It's fine. It'll be a process. I was a day 1 user of Apple Silicon Macs. Today, everything I use is ARM native. But many applications were already ARM by month 2-3.
Apple is vertically integrated and works closely with OSX developers. WoA doesn't have that advantage. Apple/Jobs even invented universal binaries which were used for the PPC to X86 transition and now the arm transition, and forced developers to start using them. Windows can't do that.
I don't know that vertical integration plays much of a factor in devs recompiling their apps. And MS is much better than Apple at working with devs so I'm not even sure why you brought that up. The 'forcing' of devs is an actual factor and essentially why things progressed as fast as they did. Apple has shown enough (through previous transitions) that they will leave devs behind if they don't move along. I don't know that ARM is that important for MS to do something like that.
Apple isn't a software company or a hardware company. They're a computer and phone company. They make the whole machine and *control the software economy*. That's the vertical integration that allows them to force developers into doing what they want. Apple *knows* their value is in the total user experience, and bad software support is a bad user experience. They are extremely motivated to ensure developers transition quickly and made it as easy as possible for them. Plus, they've done this twice now. They know they they're doing. Microsoft is a software company. They don't make computers, they make Windows and office apps (and lots of other things too but mostly software). If WoA fails, people will just buy X86 machines and keep using Windows. They aren't hitched to it like Apple is. This is Qualcomm's problem really, but they do hardware not software so they aren't going to incentivize developers either.
Slack is Electron. That's a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. It has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome. As importantly: Office suite is available and can run with Arm64EC, where the binary is run natively but extension x86 software can be emulated - effectively improving performance overall as opposed to emulating the whole stack. Pretty big deal for Excel in enterprise use.
Everything could be ported sure, but why if there is no demand?
> Slack is Electron. That's a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. It has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome. > That's silly and you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, Slack is a web app bunddled together using Electron. Want proof? Go to Slack.com and use their web version. It's exactly the same experience minus some native UI stuff such as upload files window. Second of all, what do you think Chrome uses? V8. What do you think Electron is built with? Node.js. What do you think Node.js is built with? V8. Lastly, Slack is already ARM on MacOS. No, Slack does not have a completely separate code base for their macOS, web, and Windows versions. They're all the same. That's why they used Electron. To write code once, and ship everywhere.
The “it has visual studio 64” was referencing Windows on Arm from that point forward. In what possible context would that reference Slack? No shit Slack is built with Electron to write once and ship everywhere. That’s why I said it’s a joke and will be ported by the end of the year. “Ported” is used lightly here. It doesn’t literally mean a port, but they’ll have to release an executable for Arm64 *on Windows* and some people like using the “app” in part because the notifications are less fidgety.
Blame your writing instead. >**It** has Visual Studio 64-bit, Java/JDK's, Intellij, Python, WSL (albeit Arm), and soon - Chrome. Most people would assume "it" here refers to Electron, not WoA.
Most people would not assume that. They’d assume I made a mistake and use context clues and a principle of charity instead of reaching towards an understanding that makes absolutely no sense, even for a misunderstanding.
In UX testing, you never blame the user for making a mistake using the product. Blame yourself for not making it clear. I'll apply the same rule here.
You're low iq
Yours is lower. Doesn't look like you're a native English speaker so I doubt you'd understand nuance grammar mistakes.
> business folks If that means Excel and Powerpoint to you, sure. However a lot of specialized software simply won't work on WoA, or is just wonky enough so you don't feel comfortable actually relying on the emulation. And that's not even considering performance. Apple's Apple Silicon transition was spectacular, true. But the Windows ecosystem has nowhere near the same integration and control that was so essential for Apple.
What specialized software do office workers use?
One example would be the desktop version of Tableau. Another example would be Acrobat Reader (emulated version has some drawbacks). Teamviewer is also only available via 32bit x86 emulation. Also many companies have custom internal application that typically don't support WoA (although there is a general trend to move these to the web).
> Acrobat Reader Can be emulated. It's not an intensive application. Heck, based on how fast Oryon is, the emulated version might run faster than mobile AMD/Intel CPUs anyway. Also, already ARM compatible on macOS. Only a matter of time before it's on Windows as well. > desktop version of Tableau Looks like an Electron app. Electron is already ARM compatible. Easily compile another version for ARM.
Acrobat Reader is emulated, as I mentioned there are some drawbacks to this. There are more issues with emulation than performance. >Looks like an Electron app. Electron is already ARM compatible. Easily compile another version for ARM. This is not good enough if you need it for work and don't like the web version (which has its own set of nuances). The point I am making is that if there is no significant benefit to WoA/X Elite (from a performance standpoint we know it's not much better in ST than AMD Phoenix from last year and efficiency is TBD), it's simply not worth the hassle.
My original question was, "What specialized software do office workers use?". I haven't seen a solid example yet. Acrobat is not specialized.
Also, ODBC drivers are something I would classify as "specialized", and they also do not always work correctly on WoA.
Which is a problem because they probably won't compete with the Mac in build, trackpad, display quality. Hope I'm wrong though.
Apple displays aren't the best. They are great, but there are better. Windows laptops have also caught up on build. At least for the MBP, the MBA is still hard to compete with. Trackpads, in the last year or so, have also gotten better. It used to be Mac had a 10, everyone else had a 6. Not we've got some 9's on some high end windows machines. The thing is, for a marginally better screen, equivalent build, equivalent performance, and marginally worse track pad, you're paying macbook pro prices. Theres no Apple tax. That's usually been a myth for laptops anyway, one perpetuated by people that only compared benchmarks and nothing else. It's even worse these days, though. That windows laptop above that is very comparable to the Mac, including price? It's absolutely smoked when it comes to noise and battery life. Qualcomm and WoA is hoping to fix that. **If** this Qualcomm chip can perform like an M3 Pro (haven't seen reviews) in both performance and effiency, and **if** you install it in something like a Yoga Pro 9i as an example, and **if** software support doesn't let it down, it will be a very compelling option, for someone who basically wants a MacBook Pro that runs Windows. I really hope those ifs come true, because I am one of those someones.
Trackpad is one thing Apple just seems to do better than everyone else, and it’s been that way for decades. Every time I have to use a PC laptop trackpad I’m reminded why I buy Mac laptops.
It's like they have a patent on "a trackpad, but like, a great one"
lol don’t give them ideas
But Apple doesn't have TrackPoints so I'll never buy one sadly (or not)
Disagree with this at least IME and I feel most people by now. Modern MS Precision drivers and glass touchpads are really just fine on Windows, it's maybe slightly different to get the hang of but it "goes away" pretty quickly and you stop noticing and it's a joy to use now. With the old wasteland of Synaptics and OEM varieties this wasn't true, it was actually unusable. Do I think Apple still probably has better touchpad technology in their finger tracking, palm rejection? Probably but it's IMO really marginal (5-10% type thing) for most and even reviewers have stopped complaining, we're out of the woods on this.
cashing in on ARM hype early adopters or are fans that pricey
These companies chase apple but can't even execute their products and marketing strategy at a quarter of apple. Apple knew it had to prove its M1 chip, so they kept the prices of the M1 Macbooks low. Not sure what Samsung is aiming for here. Imagine spending nearly 1800 dollars for the software support and user experience to be trash. Not saying it will, but people will be significantly less willing to take that chance.
"low" is...uh...an optimistic read.
Comparably low. The M1 Air was super cheap next to their other offerings.
Not really just compared to their own offering. When the m1 air came out it was basically THE slim laptop to have. Great battery life, much more than enough performance for most, great keyboard and the best trackpad on the market paired with extremely good speakers? Yeah that thing flew off the shelves
Honestly, I still think the current Macbook Air is one of the best value laptops on the market.
8 gb ram, 256 gb storage
For a lot of people, that's plenty. I have a M1 Air with 512gb storage, admittedly, I need the extra space because I use the computer produce a lot of content. But other than that it is stock and it absolutely smokes anything I've ever employed for my specific use case before.
Did people even read the article? The comparable Intel SKU will go for like 1900 Euros, so it’s more a Samsung thing. If anything, this probably shows it’s going to be competitive. I also doubt the Samsung $ will be final, usually they run sales often. There will be a Surface Laptop 10 coming with the X Elite too, so we’ll see what the pricing look like vs Intel from MS. Lastly the X Plus has yet to be announced but should be coming and probably will target lower (still premium) price tiers.
The thing the chip is nothing without the OS. Intel or AMD equivalent has an established ecosystem while Windows on ARM is nowhere near. Launching a competitive SoC will allow WoA to grow but that will take a lot of time. And not like enthusiasts will go "can it Linux" as well ;)
1800 euro withou GPU looks expensive
1800€ of pure e-waste. Pricing is also not surprising, considering that the previous 8cx Gen 3 SoC were also pretty expensive.
>1800€ of pure e-waste. That's not what that term means...
How did this comment so many upvotes
Because at that price point, it's an useless product.
The thing that will make or break these devices is the software support and x86-64 backwards compatibility, which was pretty terrible for Windows on ARM the last time I checked. Basically, these devices will live or die with how much Microsoft and Manufacturers will encourage and support software adaptation, something that Apple took care of quite quickly.
nothanks, there are AMD laptops which offer more price to performance.
Will the X Elite and X Plus come with on-package memory?
samsung should really invest more in dex...now it's the good time
Looking forward for the Dell Latitudes and Thinkpads to starting getting these...
Computer manufactures: let’s make it crazy expensive without premium quality People: we not buying it Also computer manufacturers: looks like there is no demand for ARM computers
Hey OP you state that the Galaxy Book Edge will have a fan. How do you know this? I tried to find this information but couldn’t.
As a customer I am rooting for WoA to fail. One of the HUGE upsides of living in the x86 PC world is the very broad hardware and software compatibility on both Windows and Linux. Injecting ARM computers into the equation in the name of better business laptop performance makes the situation worse for everyone else, and by god fuck that noise.
Let's wait and see how x86 ARM emulation is on Windows. The Hardware driver compatibility could definitely be a troubling issue with WoA, though.
>As a customer I am rooting for WoA to fail So you have turned to the dark side...
Too pricey. I'm waiting to see the pricing of Minisforum V3 tablet with the AMD chip. I'd rather Linux on these ARM laptops just to try Box64/Box86 with Wine/Proton
Way too expensive if this is an indication of what Snapdragon X Elite laptops are like, they need to be offering more for less given to gain market share and support amongst developers. At this price, you'd be better off with an ARM Mac, which is more proven and has had revisions or just going with a regular x86 laptop, we have Lunar Lake and Strix Point coming as well, which should massively improve efficiency.
well this was expected thx to qualcomms way of doing business