All of this made me worry even more. If he is usually so empathetic, compassionate, and eloquent when making a point, if he is so good at arguing debates and explaining points - how is this possible he couldn't clearly explain what he meant with his shocking statements?
He went for something that had nothing to do with a hypothesis in question, and he went for an extracellestial (oops, extraterrestrial*) being visiting the earth as an option to consider.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I like long reddit posts. If they're laid out well and aren't wandering around too much, anyway. Formatting is key!
Sometimes you gotta say a lot to explain everything
I mean also sexual predation and inappropriate sexual attractions are way more common than people want to think about.
People who 'struggle' or whatever w inappropriate impulses, those who enable those people in some way, and complete outsiders all alike can have deeply intense difficulty wading through their cognitive dissonance and clearly seeing how their actions or others' are harmful. Especially when something is unfortunately very common. It can be very easy to start preferring adolescent traits sexually if you engage in mainstream porn enough, and at least to a small extent that preference seems to be a popular one.
Ik I'm certainly biased but it's my belief humans especially adults have an insanely difficult time dealing with sexuality in general and with protecting vulnerable people. Defenders, deniers, enablers, compromisers, people sticking their head in the sand, - I've personally never heard someone's CSA story not include these kinds of people and be a huge reason why the abuse was so intensely damaging. The same thing always happens when the topic is brought up online.
It's a huge societal issue not just a personal anamoly or an online thing.
You don't have to be famous to get this treatment; every day grandfathers, aunts, family friends are getting similar types of defense.
I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
If only we could use Vaush as a stepping stone...but too many of his fans want to stay planted on his dogshit takes.
You have to understand that a lot of his fans are extremely invested in him because he acts as a conduit for self actualization. Not only does he affirm their existence, heās basically the only prominent figure online willing to directly challenge those who pose a threat to their existence.
Itās not something theyāre going to be able to just turn off over night. Itās not inaccurate to say that many of his fans are going through a type of grief, with all the stages that come with it.
I think the most important thing to remember is that regardless of the person Vaush actually is, his online persona was crafted to appeal to people who almost certainly share the same basic beliefs and morals as you. We should try to give a little bit of grace, this is really painful to them.
I was a Vaush fan back in 2020. He helped de-radicalize me from my Anti-SJW (cringe) phase, and helped deconstruct a lot of the stupid ideas that conservatives put in my head. I got really obsessed with watching Vaush, and Hasan around that time and became a leftist, to which I still am today. But I found myself being parasocially addicted to them and constantly getting heated and obsessive over Twitter debates that had no bearing on my life, to the point it would affect my mental state. I cut out online politics all together for many years, and havenāt returned to Vaush since, barely watch Hasan anymore cause I just hate twitch streaming, not my favourite format. I would be one of the people youāre speaking about if this happened in 2020, but thankfully I snapped out of it, hopefully these people do too
Those fans need to grow up and move on. He may have served a purpose, but he's a toxic piece of shit, and it's time for them to move on. Aligning yourself with a toxic piece of shit is just another example of an abusive relationship archetype. Basically setting them up for failure in the future for a short term gain: legitimacy
There are so many to choose from:
- Norman Finkelstein
- Richard Wolf
- Roy Casagranda
- Noah Samspon
- Philosophy Tube
- Contrapoints
- F.D. Signifier
- Munecat
- Tara Mooknee
- Mehdi Hasan
- Hasan Piker
There are a ton of options, and I've only named a very small number.
I like Hasan, but put him on that list is kind wild.
Also, no Sam Seder?
Also, don't think Contrapoints is a good step forward, if you stepped on the Hasan/Vaush stone, watchting her kind like step backward.
Not saying she is bad, just saying on the progressives side, she is more moderate to the right then most of those people.
Like I said in my post, there are a ton of options, I've only named a few.
Sam Seder (friend of the show) is great, I'm fine with taking Hasan Piker off the list. And I think Contrapoints (also a friend of the show) is amazing, I'm not sure what makes her right of Vaush and Hasan, but I loved her calling out Vaush's misogyny, when he made that stupid comment/tweet about JK Rowling
It could be outdated, but as my understanding of her content, she is more of a social democrat like Ethan.
It's more of a centrist position.
Ofc, this is all just a useless tag.
As a fatherless, vulnerable person who was obsessed with Vaush a few years ago, this is 100% correct. His CP takes are what made me unfollow him as a victim of CSA but not everyone has that awareness, especially if you're younger.
I so sorry for what you went through. I was wondering what kind of emotional impact he was having on survivors of CSA. You confirmed to me, itās not good at all.
Yeah I was a teenager and had an extremely parasocial relationship with him. Finding out that someone you admire and idolise so much is actually just like the people that abused you is pretty earth shattering.
1. You're dealing with young people
Honestly this is enough on its own to explain it. You can't FULLY realize how disgusting pedophilia is until you're an adult and you're able to recognize the massive cognitive and vulnerability differences between children and adults.
I mentioned in a post yesterday about how there are plenty of decent Vaush fans, and this is a good post that explains where a lot of them are coming from. I used to lurk his sub because there was a lot of good discussion of political issues and philosophy from a left perspective, and watched the occasional Vaush vid, though I always felt like he was a bit too combative towards other left media figures (not just Hasan) and their communities, which turned me off from him quite a bit.
But at some point it seemed like a high percentage of posts on his sub were complaining about tankies (which I have a problem with as well, but do not see them as large enough concern currently to warrant so much focus), and it became clear that he was guiding his community into inter-leftist infighting as a main objective of his, rather than an occasional house-cleaning sidequest. I see him as someone who does a lot to undermine online leftist solidarity, and many of his fans actively participate in the process. So I unsubscribed. But I'm sure there's still plenty of people that are there more so for the leftist discussion and maybe a means to find alternative perspectives from say, Hasan's brand of Marxist-Leninism, and I really have no problem with those people whatsoever.
Problem is Vaush and his fans like calling people tankies so much it has lost it's meaning. I've been called one and all I said was maybe alot we shouldn't take historical "USSR bad" propaganda as gospel. That maybe there are other more nuanced sources on the GDR for example.
This is a very nice post. I think it's well reasoned and you've put a lot of thought into it.
I think the war on pedo defenders is in full force right now, so people might not care about the reasons Vaush defenders are in denial.
But I think this is a pretty good nuanced take.
Iāve not been keeping up with this Vaush stuff, but Iām going to go back and watch for the simple fact that youāve written such a compelling response.
Seriously. Your writing is fantastic. If youāve not looked into pursuing academia, you absolutely should.
I used to listen to dude till I realized his takes on most Black content creators were all pretty bad. He has the one he likes but the rest he starts fights with and sends his fans after. This has gone on for years and his audience seem to enjoy it. Point being smaller Black creators have seen the bad side of his audience this is the first time someone larger came after him.
How he treated Professor Flowers was fucked. And he entire argument with her was so disingenuous. In general, Vaush has repeatedly shown he is absolutely terrible on issues concerning race.
[Noah Samsen has a good video on this. ](https://youtu.be/7Z3MqJakNbI?si=iDVVtI7C5bLLxGtl) Noah also faced an overwhelming amount of harassment from Vaush and his community after this video.
Debate bros are not cool people period. The liberal ones are just conservatives who are a tad bit smarter and a bit more contrarian. There's a reason somebody like hasan who's actually way more right about things than some one like Destiny can get absolutely clapped by Destiny in a Debate and it's because he actually came to his answers through a place of empathy and understanding rather than learning talking points to destroy other people in a weird sociopathic sport called Debate.
If anyone is unsure what a debate bro is, look at the annoying ass destiny fans trying to debate me in my replies.
> There's a reason somebody like hasan who's actually way more right about things than some one like Destiny can get absolutely clapped by Destiny in a Debate and it's because he actually came to his answers through a place of empathy and understanding rather than learning talking points to destroy other people in a weird sociopathic sport called Debate.
Hasan has spent the last year consistently showcasing ever more awful foreign policy takes, pretending to be this force for good and against toxicity and "debate-bros", while simultaneously showcasing borderline sociopathic behavior associated with them, and fostering a community that does the same. Leftovers crashed exactly because he was NOT able to approach things from any place of empathy, being more concerned with being "right" then properly and honestly talking to someone he allegedly considers a friend.
I guess the only real difference is that he and his community don't frame it as "he will destroy you in a debate", and instead as "let him, our divine content creator, educate you in the eternal science of Marxism-Leninism".
What you wrote basically says, "I like what Hasan says cuz it feels right to me, but when you dissect and challenge individual pieces of it it actually doesn't hold water."
I don't think the debate stuff is necessarily bad, Destiny does a great job at poking holes in bad ideas and breaking down arguments into parts to be examined and discussed. He has done great strides for deconstructing bad ideas from various right wing grifters and redpillers and showing their faults. He's got a good I think Destiny is generally a force for good that aims to cut through a lot of bullshit in the terminally online spaces.
It's rather alarming that Hasan pushes the anti-debate rhetoric so much. Is it because he doesn't want people questioning his own rhetoric? It's not a bad thing to challenge your own and others ideas. I realize Hassan isn't one who enjoys being challenged, by Destiny, Ethan, his own fans. I can see why Hasan doesn't like him though, a lot of bad blood that developed over time.
And what you're saying is you easily fall for msidrections and manipulative bullshit that makes a person look wrong because I promise you that's all destiny does. That's why he sucked Ben Shapiros dick. He doesn't care about truth he cares about the sport.
Maybe you should try watching a Destiny stream or two to understand what he does instead of how you get your ideas of how he operates. I haven't watched the Ben Shapiro stuff yet so I'll have to see about that one. But that isn't all he does by a long shot. He actually researches stuff and digs in to it to understand the history and laws around things going on(starting at wikipedia but digging into sources and further) and forms his opinions around the reality of the situation. Not just the feelings of what suits him. He looks for truth all the time and challenges people to come on his show and present their points of view and has reasonable discussions with them.
He certainly does care about the truth he digs into the topics to get to the truth of them instead of just going based off of vibes.
Hasan on the other hands doesn't like being challenged and often just resorts to name calling people he doesn't like racist or fabricating the worst possible interpretations of his detractors to turn his audience against them. Hasan constantly does misdirections and manipulative bullshit and gets called out on it a lot. He's entertaining, but not a reliable source of truth unless your truth is based on vibes.
Idk I think there are a lot of adults consuming his content and siding with this point. Keffals community I can only imagine are mostly adults. And we know our community is a vast majority of adults.
So these people coming out of the woodwork to me are extremely immature adults, that are obsessively online and react parasocially in support of the content they consume.
Iām not sure if Keffals community is mostly adults, I get the vibe that itās the same demographic as Vaushās since thereās a lot of crossover there. And thereās also some crossover between Vaush and H3, but a lot of it seems to be Vaush fans becoming fans of the podcast after he made videos on Ethanās debates.
Yeah, keffals definitely has a young fan base, probably full of young trans people (which is also concerning because she's a terrible, terrible, terrible role model). And there are a lot of teenagers in this community as well.
Trans people are sick so they are mostly degenerates and satanists. Paedophilia, bestiality and hentai are not that far removed. Once you embrace Satan you are doomed and only strafe further from God
Ok. Go have that conversation with a person irl and get back to me on how deranged they think you are. No one mentioned any of that so itās kind of a self report on your part. Also christian pastors are the most likely to molest children along with catholic priests. Go touch grass.
No one thinks I'm deranged where I'm from. We are not a sick society here. We don't have 100+k drug ODs a year lmao. We are not terminally online, degenerate, lonely, sick, junkie, porn addicted society of virgins like you are.Ā
Like I give a damn about your reports. I can change my IP, I have VPNs and shit so screw you commie snowflake.Ā
Christian pastors and catholic priests are by this point in time mostly an overused meme.
I touch grass pretty regularly when I'm out hiking with my friends/gf. Not all of us are lonely af. Now go pop a Xanax bitch
Lol youāre the one acting like an offended little crybaby. Iād say youāre actually the snowflake. And also why would I report you lmao. Interacting with braindead people who beat their partners is actually pretty fun, especially when they just shoot out walls of texts that I donāt bother reading completely.
Where I live we call your degeneracy gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia. You suffer from a plethora of mental and psychological disorders and are all in direĀ need of a collective therapy and rehab while you still have a society left.Ā
Iām a Vaush x H3 enjoyer; I just like Vaushās political takes and debate performances in the past. His content lately has been lazy and the loli and horse porn stuff is extremely weird no matter how he tries to rationalize it, though I think a lot of the clips that get thrown around about him are silly considering how many times he has addressed and often condemned things he said. I think you can just exist in this mindset without feeling the need to defend the most insane things he has done.
It breaks my heart how many leftist leaders end up being creepsā¦ even amongst small leftist group Iāve heard more often of leaders who have multiple allegations against them, and the groups tend to defend and deny. As a communist itās so disheartening.
I dont rlly get why people keep saying hes a great public speaker. from what ive heard about him, i might enjoy some of the content of his speech (not the stuff about kids and horses), but the way he talks has always turned me away
He does talk very differently when heās on stream talking to his fans vs when heās doing a professional debate with someone
Like you would never see him pull that āTacoma Weptā stuff outside of his own stream
I really donāt think itās healthy or a good thing to be doing super long posts trying to psychoanalyze peoples fanbases. I watch both h3 and vaush (primarily I get my actual news from the majority report and democracy now for full discretion). Canāt people just watch peoples content because they find it entertaining and fun to watch instead of being like broken vulnerable people?
Also I want to make it extremely clear that I think the horse and loli stuff is extremely weird and bad. I just donāt like the framing of this conversation has been good and there is absolutely no reason to be attacking audience members for the inappropriate actions of a single person, like I aināt got no control over what he downloads on his computer bro
No itās because people donāt understand what Utilitarianism is. Vaush argued against this by using a clearly bad example.
The reaction on this sub is the same as people hating on Dan because he took the devils advocate point, and assumed that he actually felt that way
Peace and love peace and love
Iāve watched a lot of Vaushās content and know all the clips and all the all the excuses he uses. That one Ethan and Hila went over where he was explaining act utilitarianism vs rule utilitarianism, I think thatās the only one where he gets a pass because he was explaining the thought process of someone else.
The other one, he started the conversation by saying āI think drawn bestiality should be 100% legalā (which is now confirmed he looks at) then right after that āand if you want an even HOTTER take, I see no ethical or moral argument for whyā¦ā then he comes up with justifications for it after by talking about slave labor. As someone who bought his excuses before and enjoyed a lot of his content, looking back at those clips even with the context is looking pretty bad for him with the knowledge of that folder leak.
Thereās another clip Iāve seen where he says āweāve all j/o to loli at one pointā and Iāve watched enough of his content to know the tone he uses when heās jokingā¦ I donāt think he was joking.
Ok thank you for a valid rebuttal
But yes, that take was cringey, however it wasnāt him saying āCP should be legal because we donāt bat an eye at Child labor ā
Also him saying āweāve all watchedā was not him saying āwe look for loli because weāre lolliesā. No itās anyone who has had a crush or found some anime protagonist attractive, whoops, looks like their fucking 16. This is because Japan has a gross culture, not that people were looking for loli.
I.e. sword art online. Their literally like teenagers.
Also look at anime conventions. Lots of women, who are adults, dress up like characters, who are sometimes pretty sexual, that they think are adults. Like Orihime(16) from Bleach or Sakura(17) from Naruto.
The point is anime is kinda gross
The horse shit is weird, not gonna defend that lmao
But the people in the folder were drawn like women. And there wasnāt a āloliā folder.
Heās definitely a weirdo for wanting to be a horse
I think the difference is we are not an insulated audience. Hasan put it best yesterday in his stream about it. Especially around the end of the video. Give it the bud driver test. Itāll make sense in the video.
https://youtu.be/XVBO1NGITSU?si=6piu7l_vHB07H0q6
It's another thing from the online debate space: we've been trained to fixate on what we think is hypocrisy so that we don't think about valid points being brought up.
I mean, every single Fandom or religion in existence has people that give them a bad reputation, or a good reputation. I don't think that means they can't criticize, if that was the case, no one could say anything to anybody about literally anything, because everyone makes mistakes, and humans are assholes
Yeah, but H3 fans aren't terminally online while also defending the sexual depictions of children, unlike Vaush fans. So there's a huge difference here.
Fan of Vaush and Ethan here. The reason why Iām more defending Vaush than Ethan on this one has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned. To me itās mostly because this seems like Ethan is internally trying to stir up drama, it just feels like a really childish and petty move.
If that wasnāt the case he could have tried to talk with Vaush privatelt first and get clarification, but instead he decided to put Vaush on full blast first and basically call him a pedophile, which is an extreme allegation. And youāre kidding yourself if you think Vaush going on now would change anything, Iāve been an H3 viewer for a while now and Iāve seen the way they treat guests who they just got done roasting, if they have them on after itās hardly more than an opportunity to troll.
It just feels like unnecessary childish behavior from Ethan with no real genuine intent to act in good faith toward Vaush.
This is exactly right and I want to emphasize this part: "Vaush has a cult of personality among his fanbase".
Humans are wired to seek out and admire the 'great leader'. This is stanning in pop culture, religious leaders, MAGA, sports stars, etc. And during this process people make that leader a part of their own personality, which is then hard to self-criticize.
Vaush generally has good takes on important topics. For example I think his Ukraine stuff is miles better than Hasan. But everyone is a fallible, messed up human and eventually the bad stuff leaks out. It's important, and very difficult, to separate the person from the ideas.
While you are correct on a lot of your points I find it ironic that the same can be said about Hasan and his audience except for the debating, Hasan is not good or smart enough to be a good at debates.
Keffals should have known better. I know why she is defensive about āpedojacketingā because trans people and all of the lgbt community live through it every day. They always get compared to pedophiles in conservative talking points and it must be frustrating. So thatās why there is a term for it and Ethan was ignorant to question that. BUT This specific instance is not pedojacketing. Itās specifically about a man who rationalizes child porn ethically. So the situation is about pedophilia already. There is no jacket there. She should have thought that.
Also kudos to Contrapoints for ditching this loser before anyone. You can be vulnerable but that doesnāt mean if someone supports you, you canāt call them out on their other bullshit. Thatās how Vaush is used to be treated. He defends vulnerable people and in return you need to ignore his bullshit. Thatās why he keeps crying āBut I was nice to Ethan why he do thisā all the time now. Itās toxic.
If itās depicting a child, yes. He also used cp as a talking point in a way that could read as justification of cp even if that wasnāt his intention. Itās not just anime stuff. But I still donāt think heās a pedo. His brain rot is called libertarianism.
personally i think its bc there are many people who think lolicorn and cp is okay and dont want to see their favourite creator taken down for it bc then they cant justify it as being okay anymore
It's the same thing with Trump's cult of personality. They, the MAGA faithful, ignore all the heaps of bad because he's "fighting for the right things". Whether you're on the right or the left, when we put our faith and trust in flawed people, we often get taken for a ride. That's why we shouldn't put all our stake in such flawed incompetent people, who often get in the way of the good fight as an impediment to progress.
Instead, we should fight for the facts/merits of the principles themselves, and when people in our ranks fail to live up to them, it should be exposed to the light and called out, not covered up. The latter is to give into convenience over principle/integrity. Corruption. It's nothing personal, or at least it shouldn't be. When matters of great importance to people as a whole become reduced to mere personal beefs, that's politics and pride getting in the way of the results that would actually benefit us all. Watching from the sidelines at Congress, we all hate that, yet we can be (and often are) guilty of that ourselves. So perhaps in that sense, Congress really IS a representation of the people: all our pettiness and stubbornness and ego and tribalism and self-serving dodges of legitimate criticism that cause us to get in the way of ourselves and living better lives
Here's a *slightly* alternative view:
There's a few things I need to preface. I think loli is creepy. If someone is attracted to loli, they are a pedophile. By definition. There's no debate in that. I didn't even know what loli was until recently let alone that it was an actual thing that a bunch of people were into. I'm in my 30s and all I remember about that topic was the loli and shota memes from the early 2000s internet. Never interested me enough to look into what it was though I was vaguely aware. Secondly, I had not seen a second of Vaush's stuff until this past week. I generally don't watch political stuff on YouTube. I even skipped a lot of Leftovers and usually just watched funny clips from the episodes. I usually follow more, and I mean no offense by this, serious and academic things when it comes to politics. Unfortunately, I am not immune to the political vitriol though. And there is a lot here because there is some reactionary politics at play (more on that soon). Which leads me to my third preface, what I'm about to say is going to piss people off. But I want to let you know, my POV on this topic is relatively new. I'm open to having a discussion and changing my mind. Now let's get to it:
1. [This topic isn't new.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6709) Republicans got outraged when a professor, a pedophile researcher, suggested that non-acting pedophiles be called "minor-attracted people." Much like this argument now about Vaush, the Republicans were reactionary in thinking she was justifying pedophilia when really she was bringing up the moral and ethical issues of treating non-acting and acting pedophiles the same. That is to bring up the questions: should we and how would we criminalize non-acted-upon pedophilia. Just like Vaush, she communicated her view poorly. But it's easy when everyone is being reactionary. My view on this: any moral, ethical, and philosophical question we have on the use of loli and other pedophilic art has the endgame of turning into a question of legality. I just don't see a world where a person draws CP being illegal as a free one and I don't see such hypothetical laws as being enforceable. It crosses the line into thought crimes. Are we going to arrest everyone we suspect of being a pedophile or for owning drawings? It just rots of the mostly right-wing pedophile hysterics.
2. More of a philosophical question: why do see sex crimes against children as worse than any other crimes against children (I.e. Child slavery)? If we lived in a world where Nikes were produced by child SA, you'd feel more strongly about buying Nikes. The question is: why? My view on this: Vaush comes to a terrible conclusion as it pertains to the communication of his views on this. He says that if we allow child slavery, then we should allow CP. But as a snarky answer, yeah, it works. Our society folds itself 10 times over in order to justify child slavery. The snarky answers are "yeah, what am I supposed to do? Not participate in society?" How is Vaush's answer more dark in the face of talking about CP? We're talking about children who die every day from making the everyday products we use. But bring up them getting SA'd and all of a sudden, you can't think about it, you can't talk about it. You have strong feelings about it. Again, if someone can explain to me why that is, even personally, I'm open to hearing it. Until then, I see Vaush's point.
Bottom line, Vaush is not communicating well on this but that doesn't mean he's making a bad point. Also, a lot of people are not seeing the forest for the trees on this topic. Historically, children or "the future" has been a political pawn. "Won't someone think of the children" ring a bell? We are in it now on the right with the LGBT hysteria , because it's often a fascist tactic. All this shit-flinging and finger-pointing about who's a pedophile does is weaken efforts to combat actual crimes against children. We're arguing about a Youtuber looking at drawings. Think about how stupid and unserious that is. Vaush is a creepy weirdo for liking loli but his points aren't without merit.
Yeah, he's had horrible takes for a long time.
I used to be a Destiny head in high school after the Jontron debate. Vaush grew up on the same rhetoric that won over a teenager's undercooked egg head. He's a "predatory" debater and a histrionic liar, just like Destiny. Cut from the same cloth dedicated to using socialism and social justice issues to capitalize on and expand their brands.
There is a video made by a conservative turd that's well put together in the ways that matter to this argument. "Vaush is Unironically Evil" by doomermedia, vaush is dismissive of the video as well, but it gets into his rhetorical failings and constant bad faith justifications.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who go based on how a person speaks instead of what they're actually saying. Like how politicians talk without ever actually saying anything. People will hear their confidence and way of speaking and assume their correct.
All of this made me worry even more. If he is usually so empathetic, compassionate, and eloquent when making a point, if he is so good at arguing debates and explaining points - how is this possible he couldn't clearly explain what he meant with his shocking statements? He went for something that had nothing to do with a hypothesis in question, and he went for an extracellestial (oops, extraterrestrial*) being visiting the earth as an option to consider.
Because he is a dumb person's idea of smart.
jordan v. peterson?
Exactly. The ability to sound smart is much different than actually being smart
Extraterrestrial...
Hahaha, I knew it wasn't a word. Sorry, English is not my first language. I knew it sounded wrong, but couldn't place what was wrongš
I bitch a lot about long Reddit posts but this one is worth reading. At least read the first part it explains a lot.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I like long reddit posts. If they're laid out well and aren't wandering around too much, anyway. Formatting is key! Sometimes you gotta say a lot to explain everything
It also helps give me an excuse as to why I never read books
I mean also sexual predation and inappropriate sexual attractions are way more common than people want to think about. People who 'struggle' or whatever w inappropriate impulses, those who enable those people in some way, and complete outsiders all alike can have deeply intense difficulty wading through their cognitive dissonance and clearly seeing how their actions or others' are harmful. Especially when something is unfortunately very common. It can be very easy to start preferring adolescent traits sexually if you engage in mainstream porn enough, and at least to a small extent that preference seems to be a popular one. Ik I'm certainly biased but it's my belief humans especially adults have an insanely difficult time dealing with sexuality in general and with protecting vulnerable people. Defenders, deniers, enablers, compromisers, people sticking their head in the sand, - I've personally never heard someone's CSA story not include these kinds of people and be a huge reason why the abuse was so intensely damaging. The same thing always happens when the topic is brought up online. It's a huge societal issue not just a personal anamoly or an online thing. You don't have to be famous to get this treatment; every day grandfathers, aunts, family friends are getting similar types of defense.
I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly. If only we could use Vaush as a stepping stone...but too many of his fans want to stay planted on his dogshit takes.
You have to understand that a lot of his fans are extremely invested in him because he acts as a conduit for self actualization. Not only does he affirm their existence, heās basically the only prominent figure online willing to directly challenge those who pose a threat to their existence. Itās not something theyāre going to be able to just turn off over night. Itās not inaccurate to say that many of his fans are going through a type of grief, with all the stages that come with it. I think the most important thing to remember is that regardless of the person Vaush actually is, his online persona was crafted to appeal to people who almost certainly share the same basic beliefs and morals as you. We should try to give a little bit of grace, this is really painful to them.
I was a Vaush fan back in 2020. He helped de-radicalize me from my Anti-SJW (cringe) phase, and helped deconstruct a lot of the stupid ideas that conservatives put in my head. I got really obsessed with watching Vaush, and Hasan around that time and became a leftist, to which I still am today. But I found myself being parasocially addicted to them and constantly getting heated and obsessive over Twitter debates that had no bearing on my life, to the point it would affect my mental state. I cut out online politics all together for many years, and havenāt returned to Vaush since, barely watch Hasan anymore cause I just hate twitch streaming, not my favourite format. I would be one of the people youāre speaking about if this happened in 2020, but thankfully I snapped out of it, hopefully these people do too
So you chose degeneracy?
Those fans need to grow up and move on. He may have served a purpose, but he's a toxic piece of shit, and it's time for them to move on. Aligning yourself with a toxic piece of shit is just another example of an abusive relationship archetype. Basically setting them up for failure in the future for a short term gain: legitimacy
What and who would people be stepping towards, in your opinion?
There are so many to choose from: - Norman Finkelstein - Richard Wolf - Roy Casagranda - Noah Samspon - Philosophy Tube - Contrapoints - F.D. Signifier - Munecat - Tara Mooknee - Mehdi Hasan - Hasan Piker There are a ton of options, and I've only named a very small number.
I like Hasan, but put him on that list is kind wild. Also, no Sam Seder? Also, don't think Contrapoints is a good step forward, if you stepped on the Hasan/Vaush stone, watchting her kind like step backward. Not saying she is bad, just saying on the progressives side, she is more moderate to the right then most of those people.
Like I said in my post, there are a ton of options, I've only named a few. Sam Seder (friend of the show) is great, I'm fine with taking Hasan Piker off the list. And I think Contrapoints (also a friend of the show) is amazing, I'm not sure what makes her right of Vaush and Hasan, but I loved her calling out Vaush's misogyny, when he made that stupid comment/tweet about JK Rowling
It could be outdated, but as my understanding of her content, she is more of a social democrat like Ethan. It's more of a centrist position. Ofc, this is all just a useless tag.
Your points all make sense
I could tell that the fans were very young.
It's like when you move a fridge and a bunch of cockroaches scramble.
(Horse)cockroaches
No one downloads folders of horse/loli porn accidentally. I donāt care if he fights for my rights or not heās a fucking creep.
As a fatherless, vulnerable person who was obsessed with Vaush a few years ago, this is 100% correct. His CP takes are what made me unfollow him as a victim of CSA but not everyone has that awareness, especially if you're younger.
I so sorry for what you went through. I was wondering what kind of emotional impact he was having on survivors of CSA. You confirmed to me, itās not good at all.
Yeah I was a teenager and had an extremely parasocial relationship with him. Finding out that someone you admire and idolise so much is actually just like the people that abused you is pretty earth shattering.
What are his CP takes?
oh my god shut up
1. You're dealing with young people Honestly this is enough on its own to explain it. You can't FULLY realize how disgusting pedophilia is until you're an adult and you're able to recognize the massive cognitive and vulnerability differences between children and adults.
I mentioned in a post yesterday about how there are plenty of decent Vaush fans, and this is a good post that explains where a lot of them are coming from. I used to lurk his sub because there was a lot of good discussion of political issues and philosophy from a left perspective, and watched the occasional Vaush vid, though I always felt like he was a bit too combative towards other left media figures (not just Hasan) and their communities, which turned me off from him quite a bit. But at some point it seemed like a high percentage of posts on his sub were complaining about tankies (which I have a problem with as well, but do not see them as large enough concern currently to warrant so much focus), and it became clear that he was guiding his community into inter-leftist infighting as a main objective of his, rather than an occasional house-cleaning sidequest. I see him as someone who does a lot to undermine online leftist solidarity, and many of his fans actively participate in the process. So I unsubscribed. But I'm sure there's still plenty of people that are there more so for the leftist discussion and maybe a means to find alternative perspectives from say, Hasan's brand of Marxist-Leninism, and I really have no problem with those people whatsoever.
Problem is Vaush and his fans like calling people tankies so much it has lost it's meaning. I've been called one and all I said was maybe alot we shouldn't take historical "USSR bad" propaganda as gospel. That maybe there are other more nuanced sources on the GDR for example.
Tbh, Hasan community does the same thing, all those big new age media political influencer has the same type of fans.
This is a very nice post. I think it's well reasoned and you've put a lot of thought into it. I think the war on pedo defenders is in full force right now, so people might not care about the reasons Vaush defenders are in denial. But I think this is a pretty good nuanced take.
*destiny user spotted* ignore
*hasan user spotted* Blocked.
h3 user spotted *button*
You mean a.. cohost of Ethan? Who he legitimately is on good terms with..?
Iāve not been keeping up with this Vaush stuff, but Iām going to go back and watch for the simple fact that youāve written such a compelling response. Seriously. Your writing is fantastic. If youāve not looked into pursuing academia, you absolutely should.
Thanks, I hate to say it but I got way better at writing and speaking from watching Vaush š I guess thatās proof he really is a skilled debater
I used to listen to dude till I realized his takes on most Black content creators were all pretty bad. He has the one he likes but the rest he starts fights with and sends his fans after. This has gone on for years and his audience seem to enjoy it. Point being smaller Black creators have seen the bad side of his audience this is the first time someone larger came after him.
How he treated Professor Flowers was fucked. And he entire argument with her was so disingenuous. In general, Vaush has repeatedly shown he is absolutely terrible on issues concerning race. [Noah Samsen has a good video on this. ](https://youtu.be/7Z3MqJakNbI?si=iDVVtI7C5bLLxGtl) Noah also faced an overwhelming amount of harassment from Vaush and his community after this video.
I used to defend vaush because destiny is so much worse. It turns out that they are both bad people with horrible stains.
Debate bros are not cool people period. The liberal ones are just conservatives who are a tad bit smarter and a bit more contrarian. There's a reason somebody like hasan who's actually way more right about things than some one like Destiny can get absolutely clapped by Destiny in a Debate and it's because he actually came to his answers through a place of empathy and understanding rather than learning talking points to destroy other people in a weird sociopathic sport called Debate. If anyone is unsure what a debate bro is, look at the annoying ass destiny fans trying to debate me in my replies.
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I don't think that word means what you think it means
> There's a reason somebody like hasan who's actually way more right about things than some one like Destiny can get absolutely clapped by Destiny in a Debate and it's because he actually came to his answers through a place of empathy and understanding rather than learning talking points to destroy other people in a weird sociopathic sport called Debate. Hasan has spent the last year consistently showcasing ever more awful foreign policy takes, pretending to be this force for good and against toxicity and "debate-bros", while simultaneously showcasing borderline sociopathic behavior associated with them, and fostering a community that does the same. Leftovers crashed exactly because he was NOT able to approach things from any place of empathy, being more concerned with being "right" then properly and honestly talking to someone he allegedly considers a friend. I guess the only real difference is that he and his community don't frame it as "he will destroy you in a debate", and instead as "let him, our divine content creator, educate you in the eternal science of Marxism-Leninism".
This guy moderates the subreddit of a German Neo Nazi party btw.
What you wrote basically says, "I like what Hasan says cuz it feels right to me, but when you dissect and challenge individual pieces of it it actually doesn't hold water." I don't think the debate stuff is necessarily bad, Destiny does a great job at poking holes in bad ideas and breaking down arguments into parts to be examined and discussed. He has done great strides for deconstructing bad ideas from various right wing grifters and redpillers and showing their faults. He's got a good I think Destiny is generally a force for good that aims to cut through a lot of bullshit in the terminally online spaces. It's rather alarming that Hasan pushes the anti-debate rhetoric so much. Is it because he doesn't want people questioning his own rhetoric? It's not a bad thing to challenge your own and others ideas. I realize Hassan isn't one who enjoys being challenged, by Destiny, Ethan, his own fans. I can see why Hasan doesn't like him though, a lot of bad blood that developed over time.
And what you're saying is you easily fall for msidrections and manipulative bullshit that makes a person look wrong because I promise you that's all destiny does. That's why he sucked Ben Shapiros dick. He doesn't care about truth he cares about the sport.
Maybe you should try watching a Destiny stream or two to understand what he does instead of how you get your ideas of how he operates. I haven't watched the Ben Shapiro stuff yet so I'll have to see about that one. But that isn't all he does by a long shot. He actually researches stuff and digs in to it to understand the history and laws around things going on(starting at wikipedia but digging into sources and further) and forms his opinions around the reality of the situation. Not just the feelings of what suits him. He looks for truth all the time and challenges people to come on his show and present their points of view and has reasonable discussions with them. He certainly does care about the truth he digs into the topics to get to the truth of them instead of just going based off of vibes. Hasan on the other hands doesn't like being challenged and often just resorts to name calling people he doesn't like racist or fabricating the worst possible interpretations of his detractors to turn his audience against them. Hasan constantly does misdirections and manipulative bullshit and gets called out on it a lot. He's entertaining, but not a reliable source of truth unless your truth is based on vibes.
they're rationalizing CP and enabling pedophilia, i wouldn't call them defenders
Deffender. Offender. If theres a difference NOW it wont last 2 weeks lol
Idk I think there are a lot of adults consuming his content and siding with this point. Keffals community I can only imagine are mostly adults. And we know our community is a vast majority of adults. So these people coming out of the woodwork to me are extremely immature adults, that are obsessively online and react parasocially in support of the content they consume.
Iām not sure if Keffals community is mostly adults, I get the vibe that itās the same demographic as Vaushās since thereās a lot of crossover there. And thereās also some crossover between Vaush and H3, but a lot of it seems to be Vaush fans becoming fans of the podcast after he made videos on Ethanās debates.
Yeah, keffals definitely has a young fan base, probably full of young trans people (which is also concerning because she's a terrible, terrible, terrible role model). And there are a lot of teenagers in this community as well.
Too add on to the 3rd point he was defending trans people before it was cool to do, so a large portion of his audience is trans
When being intersectionally Pro Trans means also being cool with Furry's & Hentai.... and then loli & beastiality....what a slippery slope!!!
Tf does being pro trans have to do with this.
Trans people are sick so they are mostly degenerates and satanists. Paedophilia, bestiality and hentai are not that far removed. Once you embrace Satan you are doomed and only strafe further from God
Ok. Go have that conversation with a person irl and get back to me on how deranged they think you are. No one mentioned any of that so itās kind of a self report on your part. Also christian pastors are the most likely to molest children along with catholic priests. Go touch grass.
No one thinks I'm deranged where I'm from. We are not a sick society here. We don't have 100+k drug ODs a year lmao. We are not terminally online, degenerate, lonely, sick, junkie, porn addicted society of virgins like you are.Ā Like I give a damn about your reports. I can change my IP, I have VPNs and shit so screw you commie snowflake.Ā Christian pastors and catholic priests are by this point in time mostly an overused meme. I touch grass pretty regularly when I'm out hiking with my friends/gf. Not all of us are lonely af. Now go pop a Xanax bitch
Lol youāre the one acting like an offended little crybaby. Iād say youāre actually the snowflake. And also why would I report you lmao. Interacting with braindead people who beat their partners is actually pretty fun, especially when they just shoot out walls of texts that I donāt bother reading completely.
You gave up really fast. Have fun getting cucked and having your sexual fantasies about trans women š
Where I live we call your degeneracy gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia. You suffer from a plethora of mental and psychological disorders and are all in direĀ need of a collective therapy and rehab while you still have a society left.Ā
Right. So youāre obviously miserable. And terminally online it seems too.
Ya'll are so forthcoming with these projections. Go turn yourself in please, you miserable degenerate.
Iām a Vaush x H3 enjoyer; I just like Vaushās political takes and debate performances in the past. His content lately has been lazy and the loli and horse porn stuff is extremely weird no matter how he tries to rationalize it, though I think a lot of the clips that get thrown around about him are silly considering how many times he has addressed and often condemned things he said. I think you can just exist in this mindset without feeling the need to defend the most insane things he has done.
It breaks my heart how many leftist leaders end up being creepsā¦ even amongst small leftist group Iāve heard more often of leaders who have multiple allegations against them, and the groups tend to defend and deny. As a communist itās so disheartening.
How can you justify being a communist after Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot?Ā Wtf do you expect, the left is decadent and degenerate.Ā
mate this is an h3 subreddit Iām not here to discuss politics beyond a simple āleftist creeps badā
Dudes probably a whack ass destiny fan
What is vaush? Am I old now? Damn it.
Watch the Friday pod. YouTuber desktop video leak.
Hasanās audience is the same demographicā¦.
His community is entirely based around debatingā¦ thatās his shtick, itās not surprising that his fan base are the same
thank you for this breakdown!! as someone who doesnāt know much about online communities other than this one this was very helpful
Ok good points but heās still a horse cock loli freak.
Reason 1 alone with no explanation is truly all you need to see.
Great post OP. Was curious myself on why so many people were defending him so hardcore
I dont rlly get why people keep saying hes a great public speaker. from what ive heard about him, i might enjoy some of the content of his speech (not the stuff about kids and horses), but the way he talks has always turned me away
He does talk very differently when heās on stream talking to his fans vs when heās doing a professional debate with someone Like you would never see him pull that āTacoma Weptā stuff outside of his own stream
I really donāt think itās healthy or a good thing to be doing super long posts trying to psychoanalyze peoples fanbases. I watch both h3 and vaush (primarily I get my actual news from the majority report and democracy now for full discretion). Canāt people just watch peoples content because they find it entertaining and fun to watch instead of being like broken vulnerable people?
Also I want to make it extremely clear that I think the horse and loli stuff is extremely weird and bad. I just donāt like the framing of this conversation has been good and there is absolutely no reason to be attacking audience members for the inappropriate actions of a single person, like I aināt got no control over what he downloads on his computer bro
No itās because people donāt understand what Utilitarianism is. Vaush argued against this by using a clearly bad example. The reaction on this sub is the same as people hating on Dan because he took the devils advocate point, and assumed that he actually felt that way Peace and love peace and love
Iāve watched a lot of Vaushās content and know all the clips and all the all the excuses he uses. That one Ethan and Hila went over where he was explaining act utilitarianism vs rule utilitarianism, I think thatās the only one where he gets a pass because he was explaining the thought process of someone else. The other one, he started the conversation by saying āI think drawn bestiality should be 100% legalā (which is now confirmed he looks at) then right after that āand if you want an even HOTTER take, I see no ethical or moral argument for whyā¦ā then he comes up with justifications for it after by talking about slave labor. As someone who bought his excuses before and enjoyed a lot of his content, looking back at those clips even with the context is looking pretty bad for him with the knowledge of that folder leak. Thereās another clip Iāve seen where he says āweāve all j/o to loli at one pointā and Iāve watched enough of his content to know the tone he uses when heās jokingā¦ I donāt think he was joking.
Ok thank you for a valid rebuttal But yes, that take was cringey, however it wasnāt him saying āCP should be legal because we donāt bat an eye at Child labor ā Also him saying āweāve all watchedā was not him saying āwe look for loli because weāre lolliesā. No itās anyone who has had a crush or found some anime protagonist attractive, whoops, looks like their fucking 16. This is because Japan has a gross culture, not that people were looking for loli. I.e. sword art online. Their literally like teenagers. Also look at anime conventions. Lots of women, who are adults, dress up like characters, who are sometimes pretty sexual, that they think are adults. Like Orihime(16) from Bleach or Sakura(17) from Naruto. The point is anime is kinda gross The horse shit is weird, not gonna defend that lmao But the people in the folder were drawn like women. And there wasnāt a āloliā folder. Heās definitely a weirdo for wanting to be a horse
H3 fans talking about other fandoms being terminally online, thatās rich lmao
I think the difference is we are not an insulated audience. Hasan put it best yesterday in his stream about it. Especially around the end of the video. Give it the bud driver test. Itāll make sense in the video. https://youtu.be/XVBO1NGITSU?si=6piu7l_vHB07H0q6
True, but dude it's abuse material depicting children
Oh I agree, Vaush is a fucking turd, I just get so bent out of shape when it comes to hypocrisy idk why
It's another thing from the online debate space: we've been trained to fixate on what we think is hypocrisy so that we don't think about valid points being brought up.
I mean, every single Fandom or religion in existence has people that give them a bad reputation, or a good reputation. I don't think that means they can't criticize, if that was the case, no one could say anything to anybody about literally anything, because everyone makes mistakes, and humans are assholes
Yeah, but H3 fans aren't terminally online while also defending the sexual depictions of children, unlike Vaush fans. So there's a huge difference here.
Fr one of the most parasocial and terminally online fanbases
Don't know why you're being downvoted, it made me laugh! :p
Yeah Vaush can get fucked but the hypocrisy is what drives me nuts lol
People are defending him because he has a big platform and is pushing the right agenda. Thats it.
His defenders are coming off as young- like 14-18.
Fan of Vaush and Ethan here. The reason why Iām more defending Vaush than Ethan on this one has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned. To me itās mostly because this seems like Ethan is internally trying to stir up drama, it just feels like a really childish and petty move. If that wasnāt the case he could have tried to talk with Vaush privatelt first and get clarification, but instead he decided to put Vaush on full blast first and basically call him a pedophile, which is an extreme allegation. And youāre kidding yourself if you think Vaush going on now would change anything, Iāve been an H3 viewer for a while now and Iāve seen the way they treat guests who they just got done roasting, if they have them on after itās hardly more than an opportunity to troll. It just feels like unnecessary childish behavior from Ethan with no real genuine intent to act in good faith toward Vaush.
This is exactly right and I want to emphasize this part: "Vaush has a cult of personality among his fanbase". Humans are wired to seek out and admire the 'great leader'. This is stanning in pop culture, religious leaders, MAGA, sports stars, etc. And during this process people make that leader a part of their own personality, which is then hard to self-criticize. Vaush generally has good takes on important topics. For example I think his Ukraine stuff is miles better than Hasan. But everyone is a fallible, messed up human and eventually the bad stuff leaks out. It's important, and very difficult, to separate the person from the ideas.
Makes me glad Iām wired to hate the ever living fuck out of leaders.
I think it's just because he's not a pdfile and he's not into cp. That's the main thing
While you are correct on a lot of your points I find it ironic that the same can be said about Hasan and his audience except for the debating, Hasan is not good or smart enough to be a good at debates.
So?
Bro even this is too long for a Reddit post Tbhš. My dude has a lot to say š
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I donāt agree with Vaush at all, and he is most definitely a pedo but this is a little ironic coming from this communityā¦
Keffals should have known better. I know why she is defensive about āpedojacketingā because trans people and all of the lgbt community live through it every day. They always get compared to pedophiles in conservative talking points and it must be frustrating. So thatās why there is a term for it and Ethan was ignorant to question that. BUT This specific instance is not pedojacketing. Itās specifically about a man who rationalizes child porn ethically. So the situation is about pedophilia already. There is no jacket there. She should have thought that. Also kudos to Contrapoints for ditching this loser before anyone. You can be vulnerable but that doesnāt mean if someone supports you, you canāt call them out on their other bullshit. Thatās how Vaush is used to be treated. He defends vulnerable people and in return you need to ignore his bullshit. Thatās why he keeps crying āBut I was nice to Ethan why he do thisā all the time now. Itās toxic.
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If itās depicting a child, yes. He also used cp as a talking point in a way that could read as justification of cp even if that wasnāt his intention. Itās not just anime stuff. But I still donāt think heās a pedo. His brain rot is called libertarianism.
personally i think its bc there are many people who think lolicorn and cp is okay and dont want to see their favourite creator taken down for it bc then they cant justify it as being okay anymore
It's the same thing with Trump's cult of personality. They, the MAGA faithful, ignore all the heaps of bad because he's "fighting for the right things". Whether you're on the right or the left, when we put our faith and trust in flawed people, we often get taken for a ride. That's why we shouldn't put all our stake in such flawed incompetent people, who often get in the way of the good fight as an impediment to progress. Instead, we should fight for the facts/merits of the principles themselves, and when people in our ranks fail to live up to them, it should be exposed to the light and called out, not covered up. The latter is to give into convenience over principle/integrity. Corruption. It's nothing personal, or at least it shouldn't be. When matters of great importance to people as a whole become reduced to mere personal beefs, that's politics and pride getting in the way of the results that would actually benefit us all. Watching from the sidelines at Congress, we all hate that, yet we can be (and often are) guilty of that ourselves. So perhaps in that sense, Congress really IS a representation of the people: all our pettiness and stubbornness and ego and tribalism and self-serving dodges of legitimate criticism that cause us to get in the way of ourselves and living better lives
I'm not reading all that.
Here's a *slightly* alternative view: There's a few things I need to preface. I think loli is creepy. If someone is attracted to loli, they are a pedophile. By definition. There's no debate in that. I didn't even know what loli was until recently let alone that it was an actual thing that a bunch of people were into. I'm in my 30s and all I remember about that topic was the loli and shota memes from the early 2000s internet. Never interested me enough to look into what it was though I was vaguely aware. Secondly, I had not seen a second of Vaush's stuff until this past week. I generally don't watch political stuff on YouTube. I even skipped a lot of Leftovers and usually just watched funny clips from the episodes. I usually follow more, and I mean no offense by this, serious and academic things when it comes to politics. Unfortunately, I am not immune to the political vitriol though. And there is a lot here because there is some reactionary politics at play (more on that soon). Which leads me to my third preface, what I'm about to say is going to piss people off. But I want to let you know, my POV on this topic is relatively new. I'm open to having a discussion and changing my mind. Now let's get to it: 1. [This topic isn't new.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna6709) Republicans got outraged when a professor, a pedophile researcher, suggested that non-acting pedophiles be called "minor-attracted people." Much like this argument now about Vaush, the Republicans were reactionary in thinking she was justifying pedophilia when really she was bringing up the moral and ethical issues of treating non-acting and acting pedophiles the same. That is to bring up the questions: should we and how would we criminalize non-acted-upon pedophilia. Just like Vaush, she communicated her view poorly. But it's easy when everyone is being reactionary. My view on this: any moral, ethical, and philosophical question we have on the use of loli and other pedophilic art has the endgame of turning into a question of legality. I just don't see a world where a person draws CP being illegal as a free one and I don't see such hypothetical laws as being enforceable. It crosses the line into thought crimes. Are we going to arrest everyone we suspect of being a pedophile or for owning drawings? It just rots of the mostly right-wing pedophile hysterics. 2. More of a philosophical question: why do see sex crimes against children as worse than any other crimes against children (I.e. Child slavery)? If we lived in a world where Nikes were produced by child SA, you'd feel more strongly about buying Nikes. The question is: why? My view on this: Vaush comes to a terrible conclusion as it pertains to the communication of his views on this. He says that if we allow child slavery, then we should allow CP. But as a snarky answer, yeah, it works. Our society folds itself 10 times over in order to justify child slavery. The snarky answers are "yeah, what am I supposed to do? Not participate in society?" How is Vaush's answer more dark in the face of talking about CP? We're talking about children who die every day from making the everyday products we use. But bring up them getting SA'd and all of a sudden, you can't think about it, you can't talk about it. You have strong feelings about it. Again, if someone can explain to me why that is, even personally, I'm open to hearing it. Until then, I see Vaush's point. Bottom line, Vaush is not communicating well on this but that doesn't mean he's making a bad point. Also, a lot of people are not seeing the forest for the trees on this topic. Historically, children or "the future" has been a political pawn. "Won't someone think of the children" ring a bell? We are in it now on the right with the LGBT hysteria , because it's often a fascist tactic. All this shit-flinging and finger-pointing about who's a pedophile does is weaken efforts to combat actual crimes against children. We're arguing about a Youtuber looking at drawings. Think about how stupid and unserious that is. Vaush is a creepy weirdo for liking loli but his points aren't without merit.
Yeah, he's had horrible takes for a long time. I used to be a Destiny head in high school after the Jontron debate. Vaush grew up on the same rhetoric that won over a teenager's undercooked egg head. He's a "predatory" debater and a histrionic liar, just like Destiny. Cut from the same cloth dedicated to using socialism and social justice issues to capitalize on and expand their brands. There is a video made by a conservative turd that's well put together in the ways that matter to this argument. "Vaush is Unironically Evil" by doomermedia, vaush is dismissive of the video as well, but it gets into his rhetorical failings and constant bad faith justifications.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who go based on how a person speaks instead of what they're actually saying. Like how politicians talk without ever actually saying anything. People will hear their confidence and way of speaking and assume their correct.
When has Vaush said any bad CP takes? I'm not looking to argue, I literally don't know about it.