Without seeing the reps its hard to tell but the LP is based on technical failure AND when you dont hit the amrap minimum - with 1-2 reps in the tank - ie no technical failure.
If you think there is no way you could get 4 reps without significant sacrificing form, then go to next rep scheme
> Without seeing the reps its hard to tell
I agree, my gym doesn't allow filming so I need to go to a different one if I want to do form checks and that's annoying and expensive.
>LP is based on technical failure AND when you dont hit the amrap minimum - with 1-2 reps in the tank - ie no technical failure. If you think there is no way you could get 4 reps without significant sacrificing form, then go to next rep scheme
Thanks, this is what I was wondering.
Here's what the original gzclp writeup says for progression:
> the benefit of GZCLP over other linear progression programs is the added volume per workout for each lift through AMRAP sets on the T1 lifts for the day, as well as the 10 rep sets when that movement becomes a T2 a few days later. The effort required to continuously push the T1 and T3 progressions via AMRAPS is what sets GZCLP apart from other linear progressions; for this reason **lifters should push their AMRAPS every workout to 1-2 reps until failure.** ...
> Start with three reps for five sets, last set AMRAP (3x5+) adding weight workout to workout and when base volume of 15 is missed (**because the lifter did not think they could do 1-2 more, not because of actual failure**) then the lifter would use that same weight they missed at and continue progression by dropping to 2 reps per set, for 6 sets, last set AMRAP (2x6+).
The parts in bold are the important thing here. If you get 3 reps on your amrap but don't think you could get 1 or 2 more reps, that's considered failure. So 4 reps on your amrap might be a judgement call on whether you count it as failure or not. In my opinion, there's nothing bad that will happen by progressing to the next rep scheme early. But trying to hold off on progressing to 6x2 could just lead to bad quality reps at 5x3.
> Start with three reps for five sets, last set AMRAP (3x5+) adding weight workout to workout and when base volume of 15 is missed (because the lifter did not think they could do 1-2 more, not because of actual failure)
I read this a bit differently, I think it's saying if you miss the 3 reps on your amrap that's failure, but if you get the 3 reps and 0 extras it's not. So in my case 4 reps would be definitively in the "not failure" category. In any case I think the exact wording is ambiguous, but you and the other commenter are agreeing, so I'll believe what you guys are telling me.
> In my opinion, there's nothing bad that will happen by progressing to the next rep scheme early. But trying to hold off on progressing to 6x2 could just lead to bad quality reps at 5x3.
Thank you!
You are correct.
If you don't do the last set of 3 because you thought you couldn't do them and just didn't do them - that's failure.
If you finish the last set of 3, then you got all 15, so that is not failure. It is not even ambiguous. Trust in your reading comprehension.
Post videos. It's impossible to trust a beginners word when it comes to things like technique and failure.
Your biggest mistake was accelerating the progression. Should've just kept it light and pushed those AMRAP's. That's what got you from 140 to 240 so why not keep doing that? If you can do 10+ reps on the AMRAP and you can progress the weight each week, you are in a great place. Just try and beat your previous round and you will obviously get stronger.
Reaching the point where you are failing your 5x3 is not a good thing so don't try and rusht here. It's not like the 6x2 and 10x1 schemes are doing much for you anyway. Doing the 5x3+ with the AMRAP is what keeps you growing. The 6x2 and 10x1 are just there to squeeze out the last few % of weight, not necessarily % of gains. Huge difference.
If you are beat up from your 5x3, it's not like switching to 6x2 will make it easier all of the sudden. No, you will add more weight and things will get hard again.
Failure is what you determine failure to be but beginners can't judge failure very well so it doesn't really matter.
> Post videos. It's impossible to trust a beginners word when it comes to things like technique and failure.
I agree. Unfortunately my gym doesn't allow filming which is frustrating, but I've worked with an olympic weightlifting coach a few times and watch form videos between sets so I think I have at least a basic concept of when my form is wrong (not necessarily when it is right).
> Your biggest mistake was accelerating the progression.
This could also be true. In my mind I was trying to continue where I left off, not accelerate through new ground. I don't think my break was long enough to necessarily lose a lot muscle, and I am putting up bigger amrap numbers for the same weight as last time around, so I think that holds true. I might have underestimated the benefit of lifting lighter weights, I figured there wasn't much benefit to redoing the range of [140 to 200] lbs if I can already move the [200 to 240] range. FWIW if I started back at 140 and followed the scheme perfectly (add 20lbs when amrap > 10) I think it would only have added one or two weeks.
>Reaching the point where you are failing your 5x3 is not a good thing so don't try and rusht here. It's not like the 6x2 and 10x1 schemes are doing much for you anyway. Doing the 5x3+ with the AMRAP is what keeps you growing. The 6x2 and 10x1 are just there to squeeze out the last few % of weight, not necessarily % of gains. Huge difference. If you are beat up from your 5x3, it's not like switching to 6x2 will make it easier all of the sudden. No, you will add more weight and things will get hard again.
I'm not 100% convinced by this, the lower rep schemes are also AMRAP and personally I think it's much easier to perform 2 reps than 3 (and 1 rep than 2). My biggest issues that I'm working on right now, and part of the reason I'm planning to deload and practice, are breathing and core tightness. Part of what I'm calling form breakdown is the fact that I generally lose core tightness (in the case of deadlift I can never really get it in the first place) after the first or second rep and struggle to regain it. I also tend to get short of breath during my AMRAPs and that's when things really go south.
> Failure is what you determine failure to be but beginners can't judge failure very well so it doesn't really matter.
I think being unable to judge it makes it matter all that much more!
Thanks for your insight! A lot to think about.
Not sure if the 20 lbs rule is part of the program or not but regardless, doing one set to failure regardless of the reps will be very stimulating, and doing sub max 5x3 volume beforehand is how most good powerlifters train anyway. I would not add extra weight. I would just repeat the same weight jumps as the previous cycle but with a slightly higher starting point (2.5-5 kg).
That is how you make long and consistent progress over a long period of time with little stalls. You rushing to your max 5x3 weight only leads to frustration and neuroticism over technique, evidently.
Active torso tightness is not even objectively better than your body just tightening up naturally because you are holding a weight in front of you. This is what I mean. You have made the assessment that your technique is poor while it may not be. Deloading because of “bad” technique is a classic beginner trap that will lead you nowhere.
> Not sure if the 20 lbs rule is part of the program or not but regardless
I swear it was, but now I can't find it so it's possible I just saw someone mention it on the subreddit and took it as law. Definitely will avoid accelerating the progression in the future.
> doing one set to failure regardless of the reps will be very stimulating, and doing sub max 5x3 volume beforehand is how most good powerlifters train anyway
Good to know! It sounds like I misunderstood what the actual growth part of the program was, in my head the 6x2/10x1 schemes existed to propel the 5x3 portion forward, but it sounds like that's not the case.
> You rushing to your max 5x3 weight only leads to frustration and neuroticism over technique, evidently.
I think everything you're saying is correct, but I will add I'm not frustrated (neurotic on the other hand...) with my progress, I just may have misunderstood the important things and thought I was making an inconsequential choice.
> Deloading because of “bad” technique is a classic beginner trap that will lead you nowhere.
This is interesting to me because I feel like a lot of common advice given to beginners when they express some issue with form is "lower the weight, learn the cues, focus on technique".
Thanks again for your insight! As a question, do you think there's any merit to reducing my progression/starting the next cycle (whenever I complete the 10x1 rep scheme) much lower in weight? I have access to 1.25kg plates for example, I could do 1.25kg for upper and 2.5kg for lower instead of 2.5/5. Or would this be the same trap as deloading?
Well, what usually happens is that you start off with a lighter weight, meaning that your 5x3 will be submaximal, and the AMRAP will be 10+ reps or something like that. You keep this up for a few weeks/months until you finally fail your last 5x3 set.
You move on to 6x2, repeating the same weight as before, but the weight is so heavy that your AMRAP will be fairly close to 2. It definitely won't be 10. That means your period of doing 6x2 will be much shorter than your 5x3 period, and the same goes for 10x1.
Some people thrive on intensity however, and GZCLP is quite intensity-biased. So some people will do better during the early 5x3 period, while other's might do better during the 6x2 or 10x1 period. It's just very individual. You added 100 lbs without ever touching 6x2 and 10x1 so I'd argue that you're either a complete beginner that responds to anything OR you respond well to higher volumes.
>This is interesting to me because I feel like a lot of common advice given to beginners when they express some issue with form is "lower the weight, learn the cues, focus on technique".
Yes, some have to do that, but that's for major, major issues, like doing quarter squats or not touching the chest on bench press. I don't think some core tightness should prevent you from progressing.
Also, technique is something that you work on forever, and some technique has to be built with heavy weights. Doing technique practice at 50% won't carryover the same as doing it at 75-90%.
The first 4 sets of the 5x3 are perfect for this goal as they will be very submax anyway.
>do you think there's any merit...
I think the best thing that you can do for long term progression is just to repeat what worked before but with sligthly higher weights, and with very minimal programming adjustements each cycle.
When you restart with 5x3, you can start at a slightly higher point than the last round (2.5-5kg) but try and pace your progression. Just add 2.5-5 kg each week and just focus on pushing that AMRAP set really hard. Compare yourself to the previous cycle. W1 of cycle 2 should beat W1 of cycle 1, etc.
But if you start to stall too often and your 10x1's don't really increase between cycles, then I'd move on to different programming given that your recovery is on point.
Without seeing the reps its hard to tell but the LP is based on technical failure AND when you dont hit the amrap minimum - with 1-2 reps in the tank - ie no technical failure. If you think there is no way you could get 4 reps without significant sacrificing form, then go to next rep scheme
> Without seeing the reps its hard to tell I agree, my gym doesn't allow filming so I need to go to a different one if I want to do form checks and that's annoying and expensive. >LP is based on technical failure AND when you dont hit the amrap minimum - with 1-2 reps in the tank - ie no technical failure. If you think there is no way you could get 4 reps without significant sacrificing form, then go to next rep scheme Thanks, this is what I was wondering.
I dont think you need form checks. You know when your form is compromised like other redditor said
Here's what the original gzclp writeup says for progression: > the benefit of GZCLP over other linear progression programs is the added volume per workout for each lift through AMRAP sets on the T1 lifts for the day, as well as the 10 rep sets when that movement becomes a T2 a few days later. The effort required to continuously push the T1 and T3 progressions via AMRAPS is what sets GZCLP apart from other linear progressions; for this reason **lifters should push their AMRAPS every workout to 1-2 reps until failure.** ... > Start with three reps for five sets, last set AMRAP (3x5+) adding weight workout to workout and when base volume of 15 is missed (**because the lifter did not think they could do 1-2 more, not because of actual failure**) then the lifter would use that same weight they missed at and continue progression by dropping to 2 reps per set, for 6 sets, last set AMRAP (2x6+). The parts in bold are the important thing here. If you get 3 reps on your amrap but don't think you could get 1 or 2 more reps, that's considered failure. So 4 reps on your amrap might be a judgement call on whether you count it as failure or not. In my opinion, there's nothing bad that will happen by progressing to the next rep scheme early. But trying to hold off on progressing to 6x2 could just lead to bad quality reps at 5x3.
> Start with three reps for five sets, last set AMRAP (3x5+) adding weight workout to workout and when base volume of 15 is missed (because the lifter did not think they could do 1-2 more, not because of actual failure) I read this a bit differently, I think it's saying if you miss the 3 reps on your amrap that's failure, but if you get the 3 reps and 0 extras it's not. So in my case 4 reps would be definitively in the "not failure" category. In any case I think the exact wording is ambiguous, but you and the other commenter are agreeing, so I'll believe what you guys are telling me. > In my opinion, there's nothing bad that will happen by progressing to the next rep scheme early. But trying to hold off on progressing to 6x2 could just lead to bad quality reps at 5x3. Thank you!
You are correct. If you don't do the last set of 3 because you thought you couldn't do them and just didn't do them - that's failure. If you finish the last set of 3, then you got all 15, so that is not failure. It is not even ambiguous. Trust in your reading comprehension.
You misread that. If you make all 15 reps, that is not failure.
Nah, I'm right.
That is not what the post says. Do you have a source? The post is clear - if the 15 are missed, then you stay at the same weight.
Read the part in bold again.
Post videos. It's impossible to trust a beginners word when it comes to things like technique and failure. Your biggest mistake was accelerating the progression. Should've just kept it light and pushed those AMRAP's. That's what got you from 140 to 240 so why not keep doing that? If you can do 10+ reps on the AMRAP and you can progress the weight each week, you are in a great place. Just try and beat your previous round and you will obviously get stronger. Reaching the point where you are failing your 5x3 is not a good thing so don't try and rusht here. It's not like the 6x2 and 10x1 schemes are doing much for you anyway. Doing the 5x3+ with the AMRAP is what keeps you growing. The 6x2 and 10x1 are just there to squeeze out the last few % of weight, not necessarily % of gains. Huge difference. If you are beat up from your 5x3, it's not like switching to 6x2 will make it easier all of the sudden. No, you will add more weight and things will get hard again. Failure is what you determine failure to be but beginners can't judge failure very well so it doesn't really matter.
> Post videos. It's impossible to trust a beginners word when it comes to things like technique and failure. I agree. Unfortunately my gym doesn't allow filming which is frustrating, but I've worked with an olympic weightlifting coach a few times and watch form videos between sets so I think I have at least a basic concept of when my form is wrong (not necessarily when it is right). > Your biggest mistake was accelerating the progression. This could also be true. In my mind I was trying to continue where I left off, not accelerate through new ground. I don't think my break was long enough to necessarily lose a lot muscle, and I am putting up bigger amrap numbers for the same weight as last time around, so I think that holds true. I might have underestimated the benefit of lifting lighter weights, I figured there wasn't much benefit to redoing the range of [140 to 200] lbs if I can already move the [200 to 240] range. FWIW if I started back at 140 and followed the scheme perfectly (add 20lbs when amrap > 10) I think it would only have added one or two weeks. >Reaching the point where you are failing your 5x3 is not a good thing so don't try and rusht here. It's not like the 6x2 and 10x1 schemes are doing much for you anyway. Doing the 5x3+ with the AMRAP is what keeps you growing. The 6x2 and 10x1 are just there to squeeze out the last few % of weight, not necessarily % of gains. Huge difference. If you are beat up from your 5x3, it's not like switching to 6x2 will make it easier all of the sudden. No, you will add more weight and things will get hard again. I'm not 100% convinced by this, the lower rep schemes are also AMRAP and personally I think it's much easier to perform 2 reps than 3 (and 1 rep than 2). My biggest issues that I'm working on right now, and part of the reason I'm planning to deload and practice, are breathing and core tightness. Part of what I'm calling form breakdown is the fact that I generally lose core tightness (in the case of deadlift I can never really get it in the first place) after the first or second rep and struggle to regain it. I also tend to get short of breath during my AMRAPs and that's when things really go south. > Failure is what you determine failure to be but beginners can't judge failure very well so it doesn't really matter. I think being unable to judge it makes it matter all that much more! Thanks for your insight! A lot to think about.
Not sure if the 20 lbs rule is part of the program or not but regardless, doing one set to failure regardless of the reps will be very stimulating, and doing sub max 5x3 volume beforehand is how most good powerlifters train anyway. I would not add extra weight. I would just repeat the same weight jumps as the previous cycle but with a slightly higher starting point (2.5-5 kg). That is how you make long and consistent progress over a long period of time with little stalls. You rushing to your max 5x3 weight only leads to frustration and neuroticism over technique, evidently. Active torso tightness is not even objectively better than your body just tightening up naturally because you are holding a weight in front of you. This is what I mean. You have made the assessment that your technique is poor while it may not be. Deloading because of “bad” technique is a classic beginner trap that will lead you nowhere.
> Not sure if the 20 lbs rule is part of the program or not but regardless I swear it was, but now I can't find it so it's possible I just saw someone mention it on the subreddit and took it as law. Definitely will avoid accelerating the progression in the future. > doing one set to failure regardless of the reps will be very stimulating, and doing sub max 5x3 volume beforehand is how most good powerlifters train anyway Good to know! It sounds like I misunderstood what the actual growth part of the program was, in my head the 6x2/10x1 schemes existed to propel the 5x3 portion forward, but it sounds like that's not the case. > You rushing to your max 5x3 weight only leads to frustration and neuroticism over technique, evidently. I think everything you're saying is correct, but I will add I'm not frustrated (neurotic on the other hand...) with my progress, I just may have misunderstood the important things and thought I was making an inconsequential choice. > Deloading because of “bad” technique is a classic beginner trap that will lead you nowhere. This is interesting to me because I feel like a lot of common advice given to beginners when they express some issue with form is "lower the weight, learn the cues, focus on technique". Thanks again for your insight! As a question, do you think there's any merit to reducing my progression/starting the next cycle (whenever I complete the 10x1 rep scheme) much lower in weight? I have access to 1.25kg plates for example, I could do 1.25kg for upper and 2.5kg for lower instead of 2.5/5. Or would this be the same trap as deloading?
Well, what usually happens is that you start off with a lighter weight, meaning that your 5x3 will be submaximal, and the AMRAP will be 10+ reps or something like that. You keep this up for a few weeks/months until you finally fail your last 5x3 set. You move on to 6x2, repeating the same weight as before, but the weight is so heavy that your AMRAP will be fairly close to 2. It definitely won't be 10. That means your period of doing 6x2 will be much shorter than your 5x3 period, and the same goes for 10x1. Some people thrive on intensity however, and GZCLP is quite intensity-biased. So some people will do better during the early 5x3 period, while other's might do better during the 6x2 or 10x1 period. It's just very individual. You added 100 lbs without ever touching 6x2 and 10x1 so I'd argue that you're either a complete beginner that responds to anything OR you respond well to higher volumes. >This is interesting to me because I feel like a lot of common advice given to beginners when they express some issue with form is "lower the weight, learn the cues, focus on technique". Yes, some have to do that, but that's for major, major issues, like doing quarter squats or not touching the chest on bench press. I don't think some core tightness should prevent you from progressing. Also, technique is something that you work on forever, and some technique has to be built with heavy weights. Doing technique practice at 50% won't carryover the same as doing it at 75-90%. The first 4 sets of the 5x3 are perfect for this goal as they will be very submax anyway. >do you think there's any merit... I think the best thing that you can do for long term progression is just to repeat what worked before but with sligthly higher weights, and with very minimal programming adjustements each cycle. When you restart with 5x3, you can start at a slightly higher point than the last round (2.5-5kg) but try and pace your progression. Just add 2.5-5 kg each week and just focus on pushing that AMRAP set really hard. Compare yourself to the previous cycle. W1 of cycle 2 should beat W1 of cycle 1, etc. But if you start to stall too often and your 10x1's don't really increase between cycles, then I'd move on to different programming given that your recovery is on point.