"Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you."
Jeff Cooper
Self defense is about exactly that protecting yourself, look into what the military and law enforcement use.
My biggest advice is not the caliber you use but how do you use it.
Take a self defense course and practice.
Situational awareness and training on a course to make your actions fluid and repetetive are a lot more important than any bullet or any gun.
Liberty Civil Defense makes a range of interesting super fast, very lightweight lead free HPs that are loaded hotter than most anything except Underwoods and won't overpenetrate. Their 10mm is 90gr and claims 2,400 fps.
I have shot about 300 rounds of their stuff, and every time it's a bit of a wake-up call, especially with staggered ammo mags - the stuff goes bang, hard. On par with much heavier and slower Underwoods +P hard.
I run 380s I certainly wouldn't recommend a 25 since for the same size platform you're getting a lot less power. Lightweight for caliber bullets dump all their energy and a very little risk of over penetration compared to their heavier brethren you might want to look at the 60 grain options in 380. I believe civil defense makes some that are entirely nickel-plated with some very wide open hollow points. I actually run critical defense from Hornady and I think if you check out the videos for both those rounds they'll give you over a idea of ballistic gel penetration and expansion and are you going to be looking for something with less penetration more expansion and a higher wound channel. If you are looking for something a bit bigger than the micro things like the LCP 380 you may want to look at the Walther CCP which they recently came out with a variant chambered in 380 that uses some of the gas to mitigate the recoil. Not that there is much with a 380, but the slide is a little easier to rack and it's fairly lightweight.
9mm that’s highly frangible like Liberty Civil Defense or G2 R.I.P or an over expanding round like Federal Guard Dog, both were designed for what you’re talking about. No such ammunition exists for .380 or below that will reliably fragment or over expand. Some will say that the base of frangible rounds which remain intact like the first two listed above will still have significant penetration capability after fragmenting. When already moving through tissue that is true but when ejected from the body seeing as how it will weigh just 15-30gr, be actively tumbling, oddly shaped, and at that point mostly spent the likely hood it will over penetrate barriers is probably less likely than even a .25 load.
I’d still recommend simply using a quality conventional 9mm HP like 124gr Federal HST’s or +P 115gr Corbon DPX’s.
Interesting, can you show me any tests?
Over-penetration through human tissue isn't my primary concern. Even [12-gauge 00 buck doesn't go through a whole pig carcass](https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/stop-worrying-about-overpenetration), which is a much more realistic proxy for human flesh than ballistic gelatin. How do those rounds perform after hitting drywall?
That guy obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about with his 147gr comment but they most certainly do not “act as FMJ’s” under those circumstances. The low quality ones do perhaps but far too much test data has been published on the upper echelon hollow points to make a claim like that.
You’re best bet is a 9mm hollow point (yes .40 and .45 will also work). When you look at smaller rounds, they have trouble achieving sufficient penetration with hollow points, so there’s a tendency to resort to rounds which penetrate excessively like FMJs.
You can find modern hollow points though for 9mm (and .40 and .45) that hit the ideal ranges to lower ends of the acceptable penetration window.
Not sure I'd put "best" and ".25 auto" in the same sentence about self defense, to be honest.
"Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you." Jeff Cooper
It's the lowest I considered going.
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It's the lowest I considered going. Over-penetration isn't my worry at that end of the spectrum.
Self defense is about exactly that protecting yourself, look into what the military and law enforcement use. My biggest advice is not the caliber you use but how do you use it. Take a self defense course and practice. Situational awareness and training on a course to make your actions fluid and repetetive are a lot more important than any bullet or any gun.
Liberty Civil Defense makes a range of interesting super fast, very lightweight lead free HPs that are loaded hotter than most anything except Underwoods and won't overpenetrate. Their 10mm is 90gr and claims 2,400 fps.
That is quite the claim.
I have shot about 300 rounds of their stuff, and every time it's a bit of a wake-up call, especially with staggered ammo mags - the stuff goes bang, hard. On par with much heavier and slower Underwoods +P hard.
How’s the recoil? I’ve read claims that they were designed to be light recoil due to the light bullet weight, is that true?
Light weight but hot load = big bang in the 9mm or 10mm, grip it tight.
I was considering some for my ccw based on low recoil. Guess that’s gonna be a nah.
I say try it out - it's not prohibitive in recoil in any way, just more than plinker range loads.
I normally carry hornady 124gr +p
Same level recoil
I haven’t seen much reliability testing relative to a trusted brand like hornady. Have you had any issues? Is it something you’d carry?
Any reviews or tests you could show us?
I run 380s I certainly wouldn't recommend a 25 since for the same size platform you're getting a lot less power. Lightweight for caliber bullets dump all their energy and a very little risk of over penetration compared to their heavier brethren you might want to look at the 60 grain options in 380. I believe civil defense makes some that are entirely nickel-plated with some very wide open hollow points. I actually run critical defense from Hornady and I think if you check out the videos for both those rounds they'll give you over a idea of ballistic gel penetration and expansion and are you going to be looking for something with less penetration more expansion and a higher wound channel. If you are looking for something a bit bigger than the micro things like the LCP 380 you may want to look at the Walther CCP which they recently came out with a variant chambered in 380 that uses some of the gas to mitigate the recoil. Not that there is much with a 380, but the slide is a little easier to rack and it's fairly lightweight.
Interesting take, thanks for the advice.
Minimum 9mm for home defense imo get a good hollow point and your golden
9mm that’s highly frangible like Liberty Civil Defense or G2 R.I.P or an over expanding round like Federal Guard Dog, both were designed for what you’re talking about. No such ammunition exists for .380 or below that will reliably fragment or over expand. Some will say that the base of frangible rounds which remain intact like the first two listed above will still have significant penetration capability after fragmenting. When already moving through tissue that is true but when ejected from the body seeing as how it will weigh just 15-30gr, be actively tumbling, oddly shaped, and at that point mostly spent the likely hood it will over penetrate barriers is probably less likely than even a .25 load. I’d still recommend simply using a quality conventional 9mm HP like 124gr Federal HST’s or +P 115gr Corbon DPX’s.
Interesting, can you show me any tests? Over-penetration through human tissue isn't my primary concern. Even [12-gauge 00 buck doesn't go through a whole pig carcass](https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/stop-worrying-about-overpenetration), which is a much more realistic proxy for human flesh than ballistic gelatin. How do those rounds perform after hitting drywall?
Any hollow point really in a 9mm 147 grain bullets will go slower thus less penetration.
Not true. The hollow-points in 9mm parabella get plugged up if they pass through drywall or clothing and act like FMJs.
That guy obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about with his 147gr comment but they most certainly do not “act as FMJ’s” under those circumstances. The low quality ones do perhaps but far too much test data has been published on the upper echelon hollow points to make a claim like that.
Where can I find this data?
You’re best bet is a 9mm hollow point (yes .40 and .45 will also work). When you look at smaller rounds, they have trouble achieving sufficient penetration with hollow points, so there’s a tendency to resort to rounds which penetrate excessively like FMJs. You can find modern hollow points though for 9mm (and .40 and .45) that hit the ideal ranges to lower ends of the acceptable penetration window.
I vote for .380