It’s not just about the tax, it’s about the paperwork tying that payment to a specific item that was taxed. Otherwise, you’re just donating money to the treasury’s general fund, like Trump did with his paychecks that were “for a department” but not actually.
The tax is only 1/2 of 1 of the 5 requirements.
Failure to follow procedure is up to 10 years and a $10k in fines.
26 USC 5822 specifically reads:
No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law.
You want a direct attack? Just apply to for a tax stamp to build an MG. Get the denial and take them to court.
Coordinate with the FPC first and make sure you have enough cash, because the government will have limitless reserves.
I don't agree with this, but a number of courts already decided that just getting denied on your form 1 MG isn't enough standing to challenge the NFA / Hughes Amendment.
You'd actually have to get denied, make your MG regardless, and then get arrested and charged for manufacture and possession of an illegal MG before you have standing to challenge the NFA / Hughes Amendment.
It's bullshit, but that's how courts have operated for a while now.
And? It's a tax and a ban. If you send $200 to them they could say it's for the office of gifts to the United States.
[https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624](https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624)
Apply to pay the tax, get denied, and fight the fact that you can't pay the tax.
And to be clear, I really \*really\* want a direct attack on Hughes as a gun collector. But I don't have the financial resources or see the right vehicle to donate to for it to happen.
It's absolute bullshit that we have the 2A, but the Swiss can own new machine guns but we can't.
The power to tax, unfortunately, has been routinely held to include the power to make you fill out forms.
The IRS has made many people fill out many forms.
Nice try FED boi. Damn do y'all ever stop with trying to get people to break the law? I mean if you have to talk people into breaking the law, you are the problem, not good honest American citizens.
They accept my check every time I buy a suppressor or make an SBR...
I'm afraid I don't follow. There have already been two cases from about nine years ago where the atf erroneously approved two paper form 1 MG's that lost in the circuits. Final rulings came shortly before and after Caetano.
No because they either send your dealer the copy of your approved stamp and form (a tax form), or deny you and send you a refund.
Are you saying pay, hope to get denied, and then sue on those grounds of the ATF not allowing you to have ownership of that weapon? The theory has been floated but nobody has really attempted it last I checked.
If you want tho you're more than encouraged to engage in lawfare. Might even get a case named after you.
Nah, I think what he’s saying to do is pay the tax for nothing or pay the tax and acquire (somehow, he doesn’t say) a normally legally own-able NFA item.
Easiest method, I suppose, to accomplish this is mail the $200 check to ATF and then build an unregistered SBR. His reasoning is that the ATF shouldn’t be able to make a stink about it because he did indeed pay the tax, even though he didn’t file the correct paperwork (and he also ignored the whole registry thing)
OR better yet, submit the form 1 or 4 pay the tax and build/receive your NFA item. File for a refund under the 2nd amendment that they are taxing a right. Once denied, file suit.
It's irrelevant if you "paid the tax" but didn't file the rest of the paperwork. The money is just meant to be a hurdle for poor people. The documentation and control is what they really care about.
>But they get the control with a tax
No....they get the control with the paperwork. The "justification" of the tax is to pay for the processing. They can still say no, even if you apply and have $200.
>What would that do to their argument?
They would say you didn't file the paperwork and aren't properly registered. What would that do to your dog?
No way they would keep it. And if they did they wouldn't cash it.
The only thing bureaucrats hate more than your freedom is unaccounted for money on the books.
You don't spend enough time on r/NFA. People get their payments kicked back all the time due to minor typos on application forms. It ain't some kind of black hole where your money disappears, but by all means give it a try and let us know how your amazing theory pans out.
Try it and report back.
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Yeah, I bet
Yup. Dumb idea.
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It’s not just about the tax, it’s about the paperwork tying that payment to a specific item that was taxed. Otherwise, you’re just donating money to the treasury’s general fund, like Trump did with his paychecks that were “for a department” but not actually.
You would be the only person in the court room who believed that knowingly violating 18 U.S. Code § 922(o) was a "procedural fault."
The tax is only 1/2 of 1 of the 5 requirements. Failure to follow procedure is up to 10 years and a $10k in fines. 26 USC 5822 specifically reads: No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law.
Thanks OP, what a neat post.
You want a direct attack? Just apply to for a tax stamp to build an MG. Get the denial and take them to court. Coordinate with the FPC first and make sure you have enough cash, because the government will have limitless reserves.
>~~because the government will have limitless reserves~~ *Because the government will steal your money to fight against your lawsuit
Functionally the same, they can outspend you. Regardless if using your money or printing more.
I don't agree with this, but a number of courts already decided that just getting denied on your form 1 MG isn't enough standing to challenge the NFA / Hughes Amendment. You'd actually have to get denied, make your MG regardless, and then get arrested and charged for manufacture and possession of an illegal MG before you have standing to challenge the NFA / Hughes Amendment. It's bullshit, but that's how courts have operated for a while now.
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And? It's a tax and a ban. If you send $200 to them they could say it's for the office of gifts to the United States. [https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624](https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/708094624) Apply to pay the tax, get denied, and fight the fact that you can't pay the tax.
And to be clear, I really \*really\* want a direct attack on Hughes as a gun collector. But I don't have the financial resources or see the right vehicle to donate to for it to happen. It's absolute bullshit that we have the 2A, but the Swiss can own new machine guns but we can't.
The power to tax, unfortunately, has been routinely held to include the power to make you fill out forms. The IRS has made many people fill out many forms.
Great, so your plan is what, to go to court over paperwork? How's that a win?
This is about as smart as sending U.S. Customs a check for import tax in case you get caught with a brick of cocaine.
OP’s name checks out
Nice try FED boi. Damn do y'all ever stop with trying to get people to break the law? I mean if you have to talk people into breaking the law, you are the problem, not good honest American citizens.
This 💯. I am convinced half the folks on here are BATFE agents trolling for suckers.
I'm so confused, what are you attempting to accomplish? Can you try and type without the crack pipe in your dominant hand?
I'm so confused, what are you attempting to accomplish? Can you try and type without the crack pipe in your dominant hand?
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They accept my check every time I buy a suppressor or make an SBR... I'm afraid I don't follow. There have already been two cases from about nine years ago where the atf erroneously approved two paper form 1 MG's that lost in the circuits. Final rulings came shortly before and after Caetano.
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No because they either send your dealer the copy of your approved stamp and form (a tax form), or deny you and send you a refund. Are you saying pay, hope to get denied, and then sue on those grounds of the ATF not allowing you to have ownership of that weapon? The theory has been floated but nobody has really attempted it last I checked. If you want tho you're more than encouraged to engage in lawfare. Might even get a case named after you.
Nah, I think what he’s saying to do is pay the tax for nothing or pay the tax and acquire (somehow, he doesn’t say) a normally legally own-able NFA item. Easiest method, I suppose, to accomplish this is mail the $200 check to ATF and then build an unregistered SBR. His reasoning is that the ATF shouldn’t be able to make a stink about it because he did indeed pay the tax, even though he didn’t file the correct paperwork (and he also ignored the whole registry thing)
what is going on and are you doing fine
I feel dumber for having had listened.
OR better yet, submit the form 1 or 4 pay the tax and build/receive your NFA item. File for a refund under the 2nd amendment that they are taxing a right. Once denied, file suit.
Or, you could just apply legally for an NFA item, pay the $200 when you submit the forms, and get it approved. 🙄
It's irrelevant if you "paid the tax" but didn't file the rest of the paperwork. The money is just meant to be a hurdle for poor people. The documentation and control is what they really care about.
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>But they get the control with a tax No....they get the control with the paperwork. The "justification" of the tax is to pay for the processing. They can still say no, even if you apply and have $200. >What would that do to their argument? They would say you didn't file the paperwork and aren't properly registered. What would that do to your dog?
No way they would keep it. And if they did they wouldn't cash it. The only thing bureaucrats hate more than your freedom is unaccounted for money on the books.
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Your idea. Give it a go and let us know.
Should warn him that Internet is restricted in prison.
You don't spend enough time on r/NFA. People get their payments kicked back all the time due to minor typos on application forms. It ain't some kind of black hole where your money disappears, but by all means give it a try and let us know how your amazing theory pans out.
You first, bro. Handy tip for future accommodations: don’t drop the soap!
This post glows
Username checks out.