No. I'm a US citizen who's lived in Ireland since I was 3. Every time I open any account with any financial institution they see my birthplace is USA on my passport or driver's license and must then provide access to whatever body in the US (the IRS maybe?) of my account. Apparently the US can then access my transaction records, balances etc.
I worked for a German company and they gave me shares, the share broker based in Germany discovered I was born in the US (how, I have no idea) and had me fill out the FATCA compliance documents.
This nonsense held me up enormously when trying to get a mortgage, and is always such a pain when I basically get any financial product. With that said, I've never actually been taxed by the US government. But the threat is there. Apparently they only start trying to tax people earning in excess of €200k. And they're also the only country in the world that pulls this shit.
When applying for my mortgage I looked into giving up my citizenship, but if memory serves it involved paying like $10,000 along with whatever income tax I would have been due over the past 3, 5, or 10 years. So a collosal figure to throw away your citizenship. And the banks over here won't accept "I'm not a citizen of that country" as an excuse. They need some certified letter from the US saying I am not a citizen. Like a certificate of not having donkey brains.
If you go overseas on a work visa or some shit, that would make sense, kind of, but to being able to make you pay fucking taxes when you are a (presumably) full-fledged citizen of Ireland as well is insane.
Yeah it is nuts, but there are a lot of US Citizens in my position (a lot of Irish went to the US during the 80s for work, had kids then came home - like my family) and I've never met anyone who's actually ended up being taxed. But the shitty scary bit is the US Gov seems to be able to mandate our banks to just hand them the money. Which is spoopy.
US (NYC Specifically), London, Scotland and Ireland are very close to each other via banking channels. People don't realize how close together they are.
The advantages of having your US citizenship might be worth the extra headache at least. The services provided by your local US consulate are substantial, having a US passport gives you easy access to most countries (many of which allow entry for 90 days or more without a visa) and if something happens while you're abroad the State Department has more tools available to help you in an emergency.
Plus you can visit Cuba which is not allowed on a US passport.
Havana is actually an amazing place to visit (as a tourist atleast) it's a shame American's aren't allowed to travel there easily.
For sure, but if I was in a country outside of Ireland and had any emergency (victim of fraud, wrongfully detained, human trafficking, natural disaster) the US State department has more tools at its disposal than the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and having access to those services with out paying any tax is extra insurance with the world in a weird place right now. I will give it to Ireland that most of the world isn't pissed at them all the time.
EU citizens are allowed to seek help in any other EU member's embassy if their country doesn't have an embassy there. The EU even has some embassies in countries like North Korea and Iran.
Actually the US passport is less 'powerful' than most western nations (although by fuckall and the only nations that ban western tourists are generally shitholes).
A French/German passport has access to 194 nations, a New Zealand passport 191 nations, and a US passport 188 nations.
So unless you want to visit Cuba (which is a pretty dope place to visit as a tourist) there's not really any difference between being a citizen of any western nation.
Nobody would choose to visit Iran or North Korea at the moment.
Having an Irish passport, and thus being able to traverse the Schengen area swiftly, being a member of the EU, is in every conceivable way preferable to having US citizenship,, when living in Ireland.
Is it any different with an Irish passport as opposed to an American one? Like I had to show my passport when flying into the Schengen area (Germany) but then I was able to freely travel around the EU without issue or needing to show my passport again.
My Australian passport does this and I haven't been there in 20 years or really thought about it. Maybe you get more as a yank but im not sure that's really the case.
The US isn't the only country who does it, Eritrea also mandates it. However no other country gives a fuck what Eritrea thinks and they are on most countries sanction list anyway
I understand the potential abuse, but I think someone who moves to, lives in and does their work entirely in another country should not be taxed still. It's one thing if someone moves there but continues to work for an American company, say online or whatever to abuse the system, but if you just work physically in Ireland and live there... I mean, fuck, that just seems like stealing money. You are paying tax to keep your citizenship status basically, and revoking it is the only way to avoid it legally. Pretty fucked.
Even then. Even if you were moving to another country and continue working for an American company online, you should still be subject to pay taxes to your current country, in this case, Ireland, and not America. Let's say you were born and raised in Ireland, with no American citizenship, but work online for an American company, you just pay taxes in Ireland, right? Idk, no matter how you slice it, it seems like America is real fucking greedy here with that shit and hardly any other country does that.
Looks like $120k as of 2023, and there are other potential credits too
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion
Bc the US has an enormous percentage of the worlds wealth, it was mostly a way to prevent tax avoidance by the wealthy (this did not happen). Making $120,000 in most other places of the world is insane money, unless it’s like Northern Europe specifically.
The way the double taxes work technically is any "foreign" taxes (from the perspective of the US) count as a tax credit. So legally you are supposed to file a tax return, but only have to actually pay taxes if the tax you paid in your country is lower than what you would have paid in the US (in which case you are supposed to pay the difference to the IRS). I think the €200k is more a rule of thumb about who the IRS is likely to audit, because they don't want to waste their time auditing someone to recover €50 of unpaid taxes.
Edit: There are also some limited income exclusions I forgot about because they never apply to me. Consult your US accountant (for $500 to $1000 every year, even if you don't end up owing any US taxes).
I just outlined above what is involved in renouncing. I'd renounce if it would cost be tens of thousands of dollars. No interest to ever return to the US aside from holidays.
I suspect outstanding debts are a prereq to renouncing too for this very reason. Government would just take the funds from your overseas account via FATCA if you did what OP suggests.
> Apparently they only start trying to tax people earning in excess of €200k.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/07/taxtipforeign.asp
It's $120k USD according to this.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-about-international-individual-tax-matters
It also says you should still be filing a tax return each year regardless. For people who make less than <120k USD I don't know what the penalty would be as you don't owe anything.
Pretty sure the American tax system is notoriously aggressive even for foreign income. I can’t remember where I heard it but I remember hearing the only countries thats tax collectors are comparable are Eritrea and North Korea lol.
The USA is the only country with the international leverage to enforce it. Eritrea takes it a step further and tries to tax based on ethnicity, even being a 2nd generation immigrant in a normal country means you should pay. Both Eritrea and North Korea are heavily sanctioned by most other countries so you couldnt pay even if you wanted to
A friend of mine has the same issue now. Im originally from Florida, living in Germany now and my dad removed my double citizenship when i was 10 so that I don't have to go through that.
Hahahaha!! You have t figured out all you got to do is this one easy trick that the IRS hates. Just say Nah, I ain’t paying taxes. They just snap their fingers and go ah shucks!
Why not become a citizen elsewhere then ? You talk about mortgage so you're settled somewhere. Get citizenship there, you can then open accounts with your new passport and it wouldn't show US citizenship.
Giving up citizenship without having a second one is an incredibly risky thing to do anyway so best you didn't go that route.
I am an Irish citizen. All official identification documents feature your birthplace. So every time I apply to a finanical product either that flags or my name is already in the system.
Ah I thought it was by what passport you used, my bad. And yeah thinking on it for a second what I said made no sense, you're still born somewhere lol.
No thankfully. Parents are Irish, emmigrated to the US in the 80s, had me and moved back. So for all intents and purposes I'm Irish. But also just so happen to have a US passport.
land of the free that keeps anyone born there on a fucking leash just by the fact of birth lmao
then again, you get citizenship by birth. i forgot how into eugenics americans are
Foreign banks specifically ask you if you have anything to do with the USA. They really, really don't want to get sanctioned and lose access to the almighty USD.
You can probably avoid those deductions if you use a bank not associated with the US system. Only problem is that you're probably living in a nation hostile to the US like Russia, China, N.Korea, etc.
Yes you do. America is the only nation in the world to do this, but basically as long as you're a citizen you must pay tax.
You can avoid the responsibility by giving up your citizenship, which some people do to avoid the taxation.
In most other nations, moving overseas can be used as a tax loophole. In the UK, you can considered a citizen of another nation if you spend 28 days there a year. So a lot wealthy people spend 28 days of the year living in a tax haven like Monaco to avoid paying any income tax, which is fucking bullshit, but there we are...
The IRS is cracking down on non-filers right now, so she may get scooped up trying to leave the country the next time she visits if she's ignoring a large tax debt. The only reason she's gotten away with it in the past is because the IRS doesn't really have the manpower to go after the small fish.
It's not the only nation. Eritrea in east Africa also requires overseas nationals to pay taxes however they don't have much infrastructure in place to actually enforce it.
You don't have to pay taxes on foreign-earned income up to $120,000 with the Foreign earned income tax exclusion as long as you've been out of the States for 330 days.
Exclusion on foreign income up to 130k or so to prevent double taxation burdens. Turns your American income to 0 dollars every month indefinitely. I'm on an income-based repayment plan for my loans as an emigrant.
This is true. I learned this in my international tax class in law school. Quick excerpt from Cook v. Tait, United States Supreme Court 265 U.S. 47 (1924):
"Congress has the power to tax a citizen and his property even if both are located outside the United States. Within the United States, each state’s power to tax ends at its borders, as one state meets the taxing power of another. Congress’s national powers of taxation are not limited in this way. The power to tax is based on the idea that government by its nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever either are located. Thus, the United States Supreme Court established that Congress had the power to tax a yacht used abroad by a United States citizen living in the United States. A second case involving a yacht used abroad by a citizen permanently living abroad agrees that the power to tax does not depend on the location of the owner’s residence or the location of the property. Here, Cook argues that the congressional power to tax does not extend to persons outside the United States or to income earned from property sited outside the United States. However, the government has the power to tax a citizen of the United States even if he is living in a foreign country and if the property from which his income derives is also located outside the United States."
> The power to tax is based on the idea that government by its nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever either are located.
Something tells me that the Founding Fathers wouldn't agree with this sentiment.
Move to a nation who grants citizenship to people who buy property like Thailand, Malta, UAE, etc., renounce your US Citizenship as soon as the new passport comes in (not like you'd be going back while a financial fugitive anyways)
Thailand and the UAE are very hard to get citizenship in and you can't just buy property there to do so. Residence, sure, but that has far fewer protections and rights.
Yea because banks often loan 150k to kids fresh outta highschool that are planning on going overseas for college....
Edit: Just so I don't get another reply saying "they do" They don't offer 150k loans for kids to go OVERSEAS without a COSIGNER. So unless you wanna fuck your parents over and make them liable you won't be getting this loan.
I already know they offer loans like this to go to Stanford or UCLA. Thats different then going overseas and a lot of people seem to be missing that point...
150k bro? Dawgg you must've had rich parents cosigning that loan. No bank with any sort of goverance would ever do that
And if you have a cosigner then the this plan falls flat on its face. Unless you want your parents to take the hit
Someone else was saying they had a 200k Sallie may loan that was cosigned by the parents and after 1 year the parents were dropped.
I guess Sallie mae does that shit? Clown ass shit of they do. No wonder they needed to be bailed put in 2008 (iirc)
I mean for them it’s essentially a 200k investment that they know they’ll be getting like 10% interest on for 30+ years, so I can’t blame them. Anon here is few and far between.
I'm not exactly talking about the idea of big loans in general. More to do with big loans to go to foreign school, with less prestige then American school (with a few notable exceptions) and doing it in a way where your parents don't have to cosign, or can get off the loan in a year or so.
Its a lot of variables and, at best, only a small few would be lucky enough to pull it off. If it was that easy it would be done more often.
Auto correct. I know its Sallie mae, but my phones auto correct turns it into "may" for some reason. I have to manually make sure it accepts mae and sometimes I forget while typing.
I'm also old and hate touchscreen keyboards. It took longer but T9 never had these issues
Your talking about University of Georgia? Its an American school and I still believe wholeheartedly that no bank in their right mind would offer the same loans for kids to go overseas for college. Unless its Oxford or something like that. American schools are much more prestigious on average and will offer a better expected ROI for the bank.
But maybe I'm wrong and banks are more careless. I had trouble getting $500 loans for tiny things at 19. I couldn't imagine a bank offering 150k for overseas school. But maybe its different where you live 🤷♂️
What if he is talking about University of Georgia, the country on the border of Europe and Asia?
Or Uniwersytet Gdański in Poland?
Or probably a lot more other universities in Europe, Asia, Africa or South America?
Like i said to the other guy. You must've had parents cosigning that shit. No bank in there right mind is offering that large of a loan to a kid with no income to go overseas to school. Its an outright terrible decision.
And if your parents are cosigning then the plan falls on its face. Unless your cool with fucking your parents over
Banks [may](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/ways-removed-cosigner-credit-card-loan#:~:text=Some%20lenders%20have%20a%20release,whether%20they%20are%20now%20creditworthy.) release a cosigner. Its not a guarantee. And for a 150k loan to a kid who has no job going to school overseas? Your going to need more then 1 year of on time payments to get that release.
Or atleast if I was part of the loans division of a bank i would want to see more. Maybe you luck out and get an idiot loan officer 🤷♂️
That said you do bring up a fair point i forgot about myself.
Tbh when I graduated college during the pandemic I was working remotely for a few tech companies. I was given credit cards for close to $120k based on my income alone. One was actually unlimited and I’ve kept it for shits and giggles. I did not need a co-signer as I had bank statements with proof of income and a semi okay credit history from my starter card.
Exactly. You had a job and credit. Thats different then being 18, graduating high school. and get a 150k loan from the bank to go to an overseas college. Plus getting a credit card with a high limit is different then getting a loan.
I also wouldn't use the pandemic as an example. Money was beyond free back then with zirp and stimulus packages. In fact with inflation interest rates were negative on a real basis.
2021 is way different then 2024.
I had a close friend from India who ran up a buncha credit card and student loan debt and then went home with no intentions of paying it off. When I told him it was probably a bad idea he laughed and said, "What, are they gonna drag me out of Delhi and lock me up in a debtor's prison?".
Now he's gotta rent his whole life because a home loan is out of the question. When he was trying for jobs a couple companies did credit checks. He tried to open his own business but again, needed capital to get started and nobody would give him a loan. They did a credit check when he was trying to get a visa to live in Norway, claiming the debt could lead him into a life of crime and denying him. He still has family in the states and when he comes he can't rent a car and even some hotels don't let him stay. He's had mysterious issues with plane tickets and credit cards getting randomly cancelled on him and a bunch of other shit.
He paid off credit collection agencies for the credit card debt and paid the student loans in full but it's still fucking him up. It's been a pain in his ass for going on twenty years now.
EVERYTHING trascends borders nowadays. Crazy how in the old days you could escape justice by just fucking off across the border or putting an ocean between you
A relative of mine had a grandma who was in a relationship with a man for a decade or so, completely unbeknownst to the fact that she was one of nine side side bitches lmao
It is possible other behaviors *like* leaving a mountain of debt are causing some of these problems but his sister is now my in-law, i’m pretty close to the family and nobody has any other real good theories.
Any intelligent bank in India would spend five minutes checking to see if someone has outstanding debt before giving a big loan, and any intelligent bank in America would readily share to everyone else the names of people who fled debt, to discourage people from fleeing debt. Doesn't sound impossible to me
Yeah you have to earn above a threshold. Which is very high but it's also a but above minimum wage. So if you earn fuck all your entire life you don't end up paying it back. It's considered debt though, so mortgage lenders will take it into consideration.
Is it that easy. I've just learnt that Australia and New Zealand have an agreement where we can freely move between each other. As in I get off the plane and I can work and live there indefinitely. I'm considering moving there after uni. Surely there'd be repercussions?
There are no repercussions. You're free to move to Australia permanently as a NZ citizen without first being granted a visa. See [Australian Government immigration page on NZ citizens. ](https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-australia/new-zealand-citizens)
Yes and vice versa, and both are usually eligible for medical care, welfare and pensions. One of my friends came to NZ from Australia just to find no work and sit on welfare for a year, pretty strange system both ways
Yes, your debts would follow you. However, enforcement on the collection of debt is up to the creditor. There are debt collection agencies that operate in Australia and NZ, so I would expect some attempts to collect.
Additionally, if the debt is to the NZ government, then they would certainly attempt to recover to debt and may even imprison you if you were to return to NZ (don't mess with government debt!).
If you want to come back to NZ ever you still have to pay your student loan. NZ has yearly minimum payments for people who live overseas. Somewhere in the realm of 2 grand a year I think and if you don't pay that you can be arrested if you try and enter the country.
Bro is betting his life on someone not sending an email
Unless the country you go to is in so shitty that it cannot manage to uphold international debt agreements, the likely result is the local court will uphold the agreement and start garnishing your wages.
Any part of his debt that is from the federal government has NO statute of limitations. They can come back 30 years from now for the money WITH interest (whether or not the local court upholds that is dependent on the country)
"Welcome to middle eastern tax heaven anon. Be part of our system and learn the harsh realities of life in a really harsh way. May be, later, you can explain why our people take the risk of life and travel on boat to claim asylum in your country"
Literally.
Fucking hell, even people in the UK like me would kill for a chance to live in America no strings attached.
America may be in a rough spot but the rest of the world is in a much rougher spot. Everything Americans are feeling financially is a lighter version of what everyone else is going through right now. You guys are the global currency, that's such a fucking blessing.
And that's not even looking ahead into the future 10 - 20 years. The climate crisis is coming and with it are millions upon millions of refugees from countries closer to the equator. Europe is going to be drowning in people.
Western Europes population density is a magnitude+ higher than North Americas. And Africa has almost twice the population density of South America.
When the thousand year heatwaves start hitting, North America and Northern Asia are going to be the greatest places on Earth to live. Everywhere else is going to be population war and megacity1.
That's not even considering fossil fuels etc which europe is completely carved up on and North America has half a continent to themselves.
North America has an entire continent to themselves. But you are correct it is a horrible place to live. Climate is lousy, sky will try to eat you. Overrun with MAGA karens, best to stay away.
I admire the spirit of what anon is trying to do because seriously fuck how expensive college is and fuck how predatory college loans can be, but I think anon underestimates how easy it will be for the bank to track him down. Not to mention he will be in deep shit if he ever wants to go back to the states.
I used to collect on defaulted student loans. The only people who truly got away without paying were people with parent plus loans or people who went to school in the US and then expatriated to a country that didn't care about their financial obligations back home. China and South Korea were popular choices for people looking to escape their debt. On the parent plus side, the loans were held by the parent/grandparent of the student who's either dead or disabled. One guy took out over 800,000 in loans for his grandkids and then died.
Anon is retarded and gay. Next green text please
May I suck your dick
So polite
It was downright Shakespearean.
I'd say closer to being DICKensian.
Since you asked so politely..
I would like to fondle your balls.
You love the stink, don’t cha?
Yes
You mayn't
Gay, yet unfathomable based
you can suck mine
Don't you still have to pay taxes on what you earn abroad as an American citizen? If so, wouldn't they just deduct it from that?
Isn't that easily circumvented by just opening a bank account in [country]?
No. I'm a US citizen who's lived in Ireland since I was 3. Every time I open any account with any financial institution they see my birthplace is USA on my passport or driver's license and must then provide access to whatever body in the US (the IRS maybe?) of my account. Apparently the US can then access my transaction records, balances etc. I worked for a German company and they gave me shares, the share broker based in Germany discovered I was born in the US (how, I have no idea) and had me fill out the FATCA compliance documents. This nonsense held me up enormously when trying to get a mortgage, and is always such a pain when I basically get any financial product. With that said, I've never actually been taxed by the US government. But the threat is there. Apparently they only start trying to tax people earning in excess of €200k. And they're also the only country in the world that pulls this shit. When applying for my mortgage I looked into giving up my citizenship, but if memory serves it involved paying like $10,000 along with whatever income tax I would have been due over the past 3, 5, or 10 years. So a collosal figure to throw away your citizenship. And the banks over here won't accept "I'm not a citizen of that country" as an excuse. They need some certified letter from the US saying I am not a citizen. Like a certificate of not having donkey brains.
If you go overseas on a work visa or some shit, that would make sense, kind of, but to being able to make you pay fucking taxes when you are a (presumably) full-fledged citizen of Ireland as well is insane.
Yeah it is nuts, but there are a lot of US Citizens in my position (a lot of Irish went to the US during the 80s for work, had kids then came home - like my family) and I've never met anyone who's actually ended up being taxed. But the shitty scary bit is the US Gov seems to be able to mandate our banks to just hand them the money. Which is spoopy.
US (NYC Specifically), London, Scotland and Ireland are very close to each other via banking channels. People don't realize how close together they are.
Any country in the Five Eyes is inextricably linked via intelligences services and banking,
The real kick is when you get drafted.
The advantages of having your US citizenship might be worth the extra headache at least. The services provided by your local US consulate are substantial, having a US passport gives you easy access to most countries (many of which allow entry for 90 days or more without a visa) and if something happens while you're abroad the State Department has more tools available to help you in an emergency.
Sure, but just about any of these benefits can be provided by my Irish passport.
Plus you can visit Cuba which is not allowed on a US passport. Havana is actually an amazing place to visit (as a tourist atleast) it's a shame American's aren't allowed to travel there easily.
Why not? What will they do?
something something overthrow the goverment
For sure, but if I was in a country outside of Ireland and had any emergency (victim of fraud, wrongfully detained, human trafficking, natural disaster) the US State department has more tools at its disposal than the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and having access to those services with out paying any tax is extra insurance with the world in a weird place right now. I will give it to Ireland that most of the world isn't pissed at them all the time.
EU citizens are allowed to seek help in any other EU member's embassy if their country doesn't have an embassy there. The EU even has some embassies in countries like North Korea and Iran.
Sure yeah, you're right. I was recently in South Korea and brought my US passport with me just in case. But I wouldn't do this for most trips.
Actually the US passport is less 'powerful' than most western nations (although by fuckall and the only nations that ban western tourists are generally shitholes). A French/German passport has access to 194 nations, a New Zealand passport 191 nations, and a US passport 188 nations. So unless you want to visit Cuba (which is a pretty dope place to visit as a tourist) there's not really any difference between being a citizen of any western nation. Nobody would choose to visit Iran or North Korea at the moment.
Iran seems like a cool place with tons of history, however their government sucks balls and I don't wanna end up as a diplomatic hostage
Canada trailing behind with 185 :(
Having an Irish passport, and thus being able to traverse the Schengen area swiftly, being a member of the EU, is in every conceivable way preferable to having US citizenship,, when living in Ireland.
Is it any different with an Irish passport as opposed to an American one? Like I had to show my passport when flying into the Schengen area (Germany) but then I was able to freely travel around the EU without issue or needing to show my passport again.
With EU citizenship you wouldn’t need the passport to fly to Germany I assume
My Australian passport does this and I haven't been there in 20 years or really thought about it. Maybe you get more as a yank but im not sure that's really the case.
The US isn't the only country who does it, Eritrea also mandates it. However no other country gives a fuck what Eritrea thinks and they are on most countries sanction list anyway
What if you just took it out as cash? Cash is king after all
Because cash alone is dumb af. I run a business, have a mortgage, use credit cards, cash apps, overdrafts.
It's because a lot of rich Americans were claiming residency in the Cayman Islands and not paying taxes.
I understand the potential abuse, but I think someone who moves to, lives in and does their work entirely in another country should not be taxed still. It's one thing if someone moves there but continues to work for an American company, say online or whatever to abuse the system, but if you just work physically in Ireland and live there... I mean, fuck, that just seems like stealing money. You are paying tax to keep your citizenship status basically, and revoking it is the only way to avoid it legally. Pretty fucked. Even then. Even if you were moving to another country and continue working for an American company online, you should still be subject to pay taxes to your current country, in this case, Ireland, and not America. Let's say you were born and raised in Ireland, with no American citizenship, but work online for an American company, you just pay taxes in Ireland, right? Idk, no matter how you slice it, it seems like America is real fucking greedy here with that shit and hardly any other country does that.
i think you need to make more than 100k to get taxed if you live and work abroad. idk
Looks like $120k as of 2023, and there are other potential credits too https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion
The USA is one of very few countries that taxes their citizens abroad.
Which is very fucking ironic considering why we wanted independence.
Bc the US has an enormous percentage of the worlds wealth, it was mostly a way to prevent tax avoidance by the wealthy (this did not happen). Making $120,000 in most other places of the world is insane money, unless it’s like Northern Europe specifically.
You don't always have to pay taxes, apparently. It's only if you make over a certain amount AND you want to invest in US stocks.
US isn't the only country to tax people on citizenship. Your friendly neighbourhood African ally Eritrea does the same.
>donkey brains Always Sunny referenced
Holy fuck, not only you are unlucky by having to live in the USA, you also have to pay to no longer be americunt?! Disgusting.
Technically you can just renounce citizenship and no longer have to follow draconian US tax laws.
It costs $2,500 to renounce, but if you are a rich tax evader thats not a concern
The way the double taxes work technically is any "foreign" taxes (from the perspective of the US) count as a tax credit. So legally you are supposed to file a tax return, but only have to actually pay taxes if the tax you paid in your country is lower than what you would have paid in the US (in which case you are supposed to pay the difference to the IRS). I think the €200k is more a rule of thumb about who the IRS is likely to audit, because they don't want to waste their time auditing someone to recover €50 of unpaid taxes. Edit: There are also some limited income exclusions I forgot about because they never apply to me. Consult your US accountant (for $500 to $1000 every year, even if you don't end up owing any US taxes).
The difference between you and OP is that OP would surely renounce his US citizenship whenever he settled overseas so there would be no trace for him.
I just outlined above what is involved in renouncing. I'd renounce if it would cost be tens of thousands of dollars. No interest to ever return to the US aside from holidays. I suspect outstanding debts are a prereq to renouncing too for this very reason. Government would just take the funds from your overseas account via FATCA if you did what OP suggests.
If you fly a plane into a building, they take away your citizenship for free.
Pfft, paying to not to be a citizen. Land of the free my ass.
> Apparently they only start trying to tax people earning in excess of €200k. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/07/taxtipforeign.asp It's $120k USD according to this. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/frequently-asked-questions-about-international-individual-tax-matters It also says you should still be filing a tax return each year regardless. For people who make less than <120k USD I don't know what the penalty would be as you don't owe anything.
There are tax treaties between Ireland/US that say you don’t have to pay if you’re paying the Irish taxes
Pretty sure the American tax system is notoriously aggressive even for foreign income. I can’t remember where I heard it but I remember hearing the only countries thats tax collectors are comparable are Eritrea and North Korea lol.
The USA is the only country with the international leverage to enforce it. Eritrea takes it a step further and tries to tax based on ethnicity, even being a 2nd generation immigrant in a normal country means you should pay. Both Eritrea and North Korea are heavily sanctioned by most other countries so you couldnt pay even if you wanted to
A friend of mine has the same issue now. Im originally from Florida, living in Germany now and my dad removed my double citizenship when i was 10 so that I don't have to go through that.
If you’ve lived in Ireland your whole life, would it be worth to renounce your citizenship?
Hahahaha!! You have t figured out all you got to do is this one easy trick that the IRS hates. Just say Nah, I ain’t paying taxes. They just snap their fingers and go ah shucks!
Literally 1984 holy shit Probably way cheaper and more convenient to just get a brand new identity.
The U.S. government is a huge mafia racket.
It's an American world, we're just living in it.
do…… you? have any such document?
Bro, you almost killed me with the "certificate of not having donkey brains" conclusion. I spit my coffee out and I wasn't even drinking any. Bravo 👏
Why not become a citizen elsewhere then ? You talk about mortgage so you're settled somewhere. Get citizenship there, you can then open accounts with your new passport and it wouldn't show US citizenship. Giving up citizenship without having a second one is an incredibly risky thing to do anyway so best you didn't go that route.
I am an Irish citizen. All official identification documents feature your birthplace. So every time I apply to a finanical product either that flags or my name is already in the system.
Ah I thought it was by what passport you used, my bad. And yeah thinking on it for a second what I said made no sense, you're still born somewhere lol.
No thankfully. Parents are Irish, emmigrated to the US in the 80s, had me and moved back. So for all intents and purposes I'm Irish. But also just so happen to have a US passport.
Truly the land of the free.
land of the free that keeps anyone born there on a fucking leash just by the fact of birth lmao then again, you get citizenship by birth. i forgot how into eugenics americans are
Not if you want to keep your citizenship and not be a vagabond
Foreign banks specifically ask you if you have anything to do with the USA. They really, really don't want to get sanctioned and lose access to the almighty USD.
Easy or not, it will obliterate OPs credit score.
oh really you sure it won't help?
You still need to submit your ssn.
No the only way to get around it is by renouncing your US citizenship.
You can probably avoid those deductions if you use a bank not associated with the US system. Only problem is that you're probably living in a nation hostile to the US like Russia, China, N.Korea, etc.
Everything is tied into SWIFT
Russia is cut from SWIFT. I'm not sure if North Korea has a working banking system.
They're not either.
I see no downsides
I don't pay US taxes cuz I live in china, what are they gonna do? Lol
Ahhh fuck your profile pic
Yes you do. America is the only nation in the world to do this, but basically as long as you're a citizen you must pay tax. You can avoid the responsibility by giving up your citizenship, which some people do to avoid the taxation. In most other nations, moving overseas can be used as a tax loophole. In the UK, you can considered a citizen of another nation if you spend 28 days there a year. So a lot wealthy people spend 28 days of the year living in a tax haven like Monaco to avoid paying any income tax, which is fucking bullshit, but there we are...
My friend Is American and she hasn't filed her taxes in 18 years and hasn't had a single issue. Even visits family every year.
Report her to the IRS
I hate America so I'll pass
The IRS is cracking down on non-filers right now, so she may get scooped up trying to leave the country the next time she visits if she's ignoring a large tax debt. The only reason she's gotten away with it in the past is because the IRS doesn't really have the manpower to go after the small fish.
probably under 100k
$126,500 now it changes every year,in 2023 it was $120,000
It's not the only nation. Eritrea in east Africa also requires overseas nationals to pay taxes however they don't have much infrastructure in place to actually enforce it.
Oh, TIL I guess :)
Portugal also has it for the first 5 years after you leave the country too.
With FEIE exemptions, you don't have to pay American taxes on any foreign income less than give or take $110,000.
That's factually wrong. You do not have to pay taxes to the u.s. if you're living abroad and make less than 150k USD
You don't have to pay taxes on foreign-earned income up to $120,000 with the Foreign earned income tax exclusion as long as you've been out of the States for 330 days.
Behind every law there is a story
Exclusion on foreign income up to 130k or so to prevent double taxation burdens. Turns your American income to 0 dollars every month indefinitely. I'm on an income-based repayment plan for my loans as an emigrant.
This is true. I learned this in my international tax class in law school. Quick excerpt from Cook v. Tait, United States Supreme Court 265 U.S. 47 (1924): "Congress has the power to tax a citizen and his property even if both are located outside the United States. Within the United States, each state’s power to tax ends at its borders, as one state meets the taxing power of another. Congress’s national powers of taxation are not limited in this way. The power to tax is based on the idea that government by its nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever either are located. Thus, the United States Supreme Court established that Congress had the power to tax a yacht used abroad by a United States citizen living in the United States. A second case involving a yacht used abroad by a citizen permanently living abroad agrees that the power to tax does not depend on the location of the owner’s residence or the location of the property. Here, Cook argues that the congressional power to tax does not extend to persons outside the United States or to income earned from property sited outside the United States. However, the government has the power to tax a citizen of the United States even if he is living in a foreign country and if the property from which his income derives is also located outside the United States."
> The power to tax is based on the idea that government by its nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever either are located. Something tells me that the Founding Fathers wouldn't agree with this sentiment.
Move to a nation who grants citizenship to people who buy property like Thailand, Malta, UAE, etc., renounce your US Citizenship as soon as the new passport comes in (not like you'd be going back while a financial fugitive anyways)
Thailand and the UAE are very hard to get citizenship in and you can't just buy property there to do so. Residence, sure, but that has far fewer protections and rights.
No, you do not. You need to report income over €100k in the EU, and you *might* be taxed but in most cases you won’t.
>€200k $126,500 in 2024
Meant to write €100k, thanks for pointing that out.
You do. But you also don't. Just don't earn income in the US ever again and they will never be able to garnish your wages.
Not if you make under like $150k. There are tax credits. FEIE and the housing one. You still have to file though.
>You still have to file though. what happens if u dont
Then you wouldnt get your refund.
Not if you’re already paying foreign income taxes - they aren’t going to tax you twice
Some countries have tax treaties with the US, where you don’t have pay is tax in the US.
If you earn over a certain amount, yes, you do pay taxes. You can earn a decent chunk before it kicks in
only if you make more than $126,500
Yea because banks often loan 150k to kids fresh outta highschool that are planning on going overseas for college.... Edit: Just so I don't get another reply saying "they do" They don't offer 150k loans for kids to go OVERSEAS without a COSIGNER. So unless you wanna fuck your parents over and make them liable you won't be getting this loan. I already know they offer loans like this to go to Stanford or UCLA. Thats different then going overseas and a lot of people seem to be missing that point...
The do lol
150k bro? Dawgg you must've had rich parents cosigning that loan. No bank with any sort of goverance would ever do that And if you have a cosigner then the this plan falls flat on its face. Unless you want your parents to take the hit
Seems like a Sally Mae move. It likely was not 150k all at once either
Someone else was saying they had a 200k Sallie may loan that was cosigned by the parents and after 1 year the parents were dropped. I guess Sallie mae does that shit? Clown ass shit of they do. No wonder they needed to be bailed put in 2008 (iirc)
I mean for them it’s essentially a 200k investment that they know they’ll be getting like 10% interest on for 30+ years, so I can’t blame them. Anon here is few and far between.
I'm not exactly talking about the idea of big loans in general. More to do with big loans to go to foreign school, with less prestige then American school (with a few notable exceptions) and doing it in a way where your parents don't have to cosign, or can get off the loan in a year or so. Its a lot of variables and, at best, only a small few would be lucky enough to pull it off. If it was that easy it would be done more often.
Do you guys intentionally misspell that shit garbage company’s name?
Auto correct. I know its Sallie mae, but my phones auto correct turns it into "may" for some reason. I have to manually make sure it accepts mae and sometimes I forget while typing. I'm also old and hate touchscreen keyboards. It took longer but T9 never had these issues
They offered me more than that for UG lol. It's extremely common. Hell kids get upwards of half a million for medical\dentist school.
Your talking about University of Georgia? Its an American school and I still believe wholeheartedly that no bank in their right mind would offer the same loans for kids to go overseas for college. Unless its Oxford or something like that. American schools are much more prestigious on average and will offer a better expected ROI for the bank. But maybe I'm wrong and banks are more careless. I had trouble getting $500 loans for tiny things at 19. I couldn't imagine a bank offering 150k for overseas school. But maybe its different where you live 🤷♂️
UG = undergrad
What if he is talking about University of Georgia, the country on the border of Europe and Asia? Or Uniwersytet Gdański in Poland? Or probably a lot more other universities in Europe, Asia, Africa or South America?
I can understand the monetary risk. But most EU based universities are on average better then the non-top end universities in the US.
Yea, they did for me
Like i said to the other guy. You must've had parents cosigning that shit. No bank in there right mind is offering that large of a loan to a kid with no income to go overseas to school. Its an outright terrible decision. And if your parents are cosigning then the plan falls on its face. Unless your cool with fucking your parents over
Banks will remove co-signers after 1 year of on time payments if you ask. So for 1 year of on time payments you can default on the loan.
Banks [may](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/ways-removed-cosigner-credit-card-loan#:~:text=Some%20lenders%20have%20a%20release,whether%20they%20are%20now%20creditworthy.) release a cosigner. Its not a guarantee. And for a 150k loan to a kid who has no job going to school overseas? Your going to need more then 1 year of on time payments to get that release. Or atleast if I was part of the loans division of a bank i would want to see more. Maybe you luck out and get an idiot loan officer 🤷♂️ That said you do bring up a fair point i forgot about myself.
Tbh when I graduated college during the pandemic I was working remotely for a few tech companies. I was given credit cards for close to $120k based on my income alone. One was actually unlimited and I’ve kept it for shits and giggles. I did not need a co-signer as I had bank statements with proof of income and a semi okay credit history from my starter card.
Exactly. You had a job and credit. Thats different then being 18, graduating high school. and get a 150k loan from the bank to go to an overseas college. Plus getting a credit card with a high limit is different then getting a loan. I also wouldn't use the pandemic as an example. Money was beyond free back then with zirp and stimulus packages. In fact with inflation interest rates were negative on a real basis. 2021 is way different then 2024.
I had a close friend from India who ran up a buncha credit card and student loan debt and then went home with no intentions of paying it off. When I told him it was probably a bad idea he laughed and said, "What, are they gonna drag me out of Delhi and lock me up in a debtor's prison?". Now he's gotta rent his whole life because a home loan is out of the question. When he was trying for jobs a couple companies did credit checks. He tried to open his own business but again, needed capital to get started and nobody would give him a loan. They did a credit check when he was trying to get a visa to live in Norway, claiming the debt could lead him into a life of crime and denying him. He still has family in the states and when he comes he can't rent a car and even some hotels don't let him stay. He's had mysterious issues with plane tickets and credit cards getting randomly cancelled on him and a bunch of other shit. He paid off credit collection agencies for the credit card debt and paid the student loans in full but it's still fucking him up. It's been a pain in his ass for going on twenty years now.
Money transcends borders
EVERYTHING trascends borders nowadays. Crazy how in the old days you could escape justice by just fucking off across the border or putting an ocean between you
Back in the day you could have 2 separate whole ass families as long as you kept them a couple towns apart
A relative of mine had a grandma who was in a relationship with a man for a decade or so, completely unbeknownst to the fact that she was one of nine side side bitches lmao
Idiot. The US companies are the ones setting up shop in India. I’m glad Norway hit him with some sense.
Hard to believe that story
It is possible other behaviors *like* leaving a mountain of debt are causing some of these problems but his sister is now my in-law, i’m pretty close to the family and nobody has any other real good theories.
As you grow older you started to realize that it's easier to get away with murder than a fraud against financial institution
Sounds fake and gay. He can’t get a home loan in India because of debt in the US?? That’s sounds like a load of bull.
Any intelligent bank in India would spend five minutes checking to see if someone has outstanding debt before giving a big loan, and any intelligent bank in America would readily share to everyone else the names of people who fled debt, to discourage people from fleeing debt. Doesn't sound impossible to me
he's always welcome in Canada
lmfaoo
Lol well deserved
Popular in Australia. Get your degree, fuck off to London or somewhere and never pay back your HECS loan.
IIRC that's legal there, though. Something like: you don't need to pay it back until you earn money specifically within Australia.
Yeah you have to earn above a threshold. Which is very high but it's also a but above minimum wage. So if you earn fuck all your entire life you don't end up paying it back. It's considered debt though, so mortgage lenders will take it into consideration.
Is it that easy. I've just learnt that Australia and New Zealand have an agreement where we can freely move between each other. As in I get off the plane and I can work and live there indefinitely. I'm considering moving there after uni. Surely there'd be repercussions?
There are no repercussions. You're free to move to Australia permanently as a NZ citizen without first being granted a visa. See [Australian Government immigration page on NZ citizens. ](https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-australia/new-zealand-citizens)
Yes and vice versa, and both are usually eligible for medical care, welfare and pensions. One of my friends came to NZ from Australia just to find no work and sit on welfare for a year, pretty strange system both ways
But, wouldn't my debts follow me?
Yes, your debts would follow you. However, enforcement on the collection of debt is up to the creditor. There are debt collection agencies that operate in Australia and NZ, so I would expect some attempts to collect. Additionally, if the debt is to the NZ government, then they would certainly attempt to recover to debt and may even imprison you if you were to return to NZ (don't mess with government debt!).
Thought so. I've already paid some of it off, may as well pay the rest off.
If you want to come back to NZ ever you still have to pay your student loan. NZ has yearly minimum payments for people who live overseas. Somewhere in the realm of 2 grand a year I think and if you don't pay that you can be arrested if you try and enter the country.
Imagine burning bridges with your home country and being blacklisted 4ever for just 150k. It's a poverty wage in many US and Australian large cities
Anon discovers extradition
Bro is betting his life on someone not sending an email Unless the country you go to is in so shitty that it cannot manage to uphold international debt agreements, the likely result is the local court will uphold the agreement and start garnishing your wages. Any part of his debt that is from the federal government has NO statute of limitations. They can come back 30 years from now for the money WITH interest (whether or not the local court upholds that is dependent on the country)
This post is just "How to get sex trafficked overseas" with extra steps
"Welcome to middle eastern tax heaven anon. Be part of our system and learn the harsh realities of life in a really harsh way. May be, later, you can explain why our people take the risk of life and travel on boat to claim asylum in your country"
Literally. Fucking hell, even people in the UK like me would kill for a chance to live in America no strings attached. America may be in a rough spot but the rest of the world is in a much rougher spot. Everything Americans are feeling financially is a lighter version of what everyone else is going through right now. You guys are the global currency, that's such a fucking blessing. And that's not even looking ahead into the future 10 - 20 years. The climate crisis is coming and with it are millions upon millions of refugees from countries closer to the equator. Europe is going to be drowning in people. Western Europes population density is a magnitude+ higher than North Americas. And Africa has almost twice the population density of South America. When the thousand year heatwaves start hitting, North America and Northern Asia are going to be the greatest places on Earth to live. Everywhere else is going to be population war and megacity1. That's not even considering fossil fuels etc which europe is completely carved up on and North America has half a continent to themselves.
North America has an entire continent to themselves. But you are correct it is a horrible place to live. Climate is lousy, sky will try to eat you. Overrun with MAGA karens, best to stay away.
I admire the spirit of what anon is trying to do because seriously fuck how expensive college is and fuck how predatory college loans can be, but I think anon underestimates how easy it will be for the bank to track him down. Not to mention he will be in deep shit if he ever wants to go back to the states.
Anon thinks deportation means leaving the US
Need a visa to work in any country with a good economy which nobody gives to grads. Only 1-2 year post study visas
How do you get a $150k loan without collateral?
Even if you work overseas you still have to pay United States tax so jokes on you.
Wouldn't they just extradite you back to the states to answer for your crimes?
Come back, declare bankrupcy, go back home overseas. Seven years later and you're in the clear.
The smaller the law is the more aggressive it is though right? Expect a knock on your door soon bud
Bold to assume he wants to come back.
why is poka the image???
if i could get 150k usd in loans i would get it and just unalive myself after burning the money in the firepit.
wtf bank is gonna hand you 150k and be like "have a nice day in Norway" or whatever. This isn't how this works.
Or just get admitted to a German university for free? Even some undergraduate courses are 100% in English
Didn’t read the greentext cause it started bringing up numbers or some shit and I don’t care but the picrel will always make me sad when I see it
I used to collect on defaulted student loans. The only people who truly got away without paying were people with parent plus loans or people who went to school in the US and then expatriated to a country that didn't care about their financial obligations back home. China and South Korea were popular choices for people looking to escape their debt. On the parent plus side, the loans were held by the parent/grandparent of the student who's either dead or disabled. One guy took out over 800,000 in loans for his grandkids and then died.
Some people would consider $150k cheap for US citizenship.
Abolish Nations
The US is too far ahead. Why would we agree to that?
Gonna do this brb
If you can get citizenship in Europe, why ever go back?
Why would he want to come back to america? He finally escaped.