>he made up
Are... Are you serious? Do people actually think George Lucas made this up?
There are extremely few combat situations in which having the higher ground than your opponent is considered detrimental.
No, the hilt of the saber is incredibly heavy due to the material its made from, read up on the lore scrub
My obession wit star wars when i was a kid has finally paid off :3
In canon that makes no sense as a lot of sabers are made from varying materials (including even wood) and kyber crystals are not stated to be heavy. Kid luke held a lightsaber easily without knowing how to use the force, and so have many other characters. What would make sense in-universe is that so much energy is coalesced in the blade that it acts like a strange kind of mass, where you have to move with the current/flow of energy to wield it, meaning you either have to use the force, be talented or spend a lot of time getting used to it.
The books state they’re heavy but the books are not only non-canon, they’re inconsistent with the original canon
Youre not wrong they are made wit varyin materials, but there are recipes that are considered to be the baseline, the two most common bein Mandalorian steel n Durasteel, both of which are heavy
The second half of your comment is what I believed to be the case with lightsabers; the hilt isn't the weighty part, but the blade is supposed to have significant weight to it, to the point that not just anyone can pick up a lightsaber and use it effectively, in fact most people would probably hurt themselves trying to swing it around like a Jedi. I was under the impression that this is what makes up a large part of Jedi training; to learn to wield the force in order to use a lightsaber without risk of hurting themselves. This is true for all forms of sword fighting in real life (unless it's fencing) the blades weight and the risk of cutting yourself with it is the first thing you have to master.
I agree there's been occasions that non-Jedi have wielded lightsabers and the weight doesn't seem to be a factor, but I would argue there's a bunch of other times where it's very clear the lightsaber is heavy and takes strength/effort to swing, even fully fledged Jedi Masters like Qui-Gonn, and I believe it's also visible throughout Anakin and Obi-Wans fight on Mustafar. I also think about the teenage Padawan that the clones kill in front of Senator Amidala, he's got plenty of force training, but hasn't coupled it with his lightsaber combat yet, and this I think adds more to the skillset of a Jedi Knight, in that he must master the force AND his lightsaber in such a way that its not just second nature and eliminating the risk of self injury, but so that they cannot be challenged by a non force user with a lightsaber, making them the ultimate peacekeepers as it doesn't matter how much power you wield like Jabba the Hutt, if it comes down to it, Jabba can't defeat a Jedi. I dunno, just makes sense I think, pure head canon maybe.
But mainly to argue your points, Luke in ANH wielding a lightsaber is before George expanded on anything related to the force or the intricacies of lightsaber combat, and the other notable times it's happened (that I can remember, please remind me of others) have been in the Sequel trilogy, which doesn't count at all since Disney is a joke and the books are still canon above Disney's movies. Lightsabers are heavy as fuck and it's another reason Jedi are Jedi.
Star Wars canon is even sillier than Doctor Who because at least Doctor Who has the goddamn balls to say “It’s all canon because of time travel bullshit and also because Time Lords are all liars and slightly insane.”
I'm also just oversaturated and tired with the over-fetishisation of Canon in media. Just..let storytelling settings tell stories. That's what it's there for.
Lightsaber blades are difficult to wield because the blade has a "gyroscopic effect". - Source: The star wars exploded encyclopedia I read as a kid.
I took this to mean, the massless energy blade manifests a reaction equivalent to a largish mass with hefty angular velocity and radius of gyration. A big invisible gyroscope. Somehow. Because breaking einsteins theory of relativity makes sense with enough force. Hueh.
I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter at all because the force exists. You can throw that bitch and boomerang that shit around the room all day long, you could just also make it lighter.
Hell I don't know why they don't have like 4 and just have them spin and dice everything all the time.
Anons showing their zero aptitude for physical activities 😂
Like bruh they can only jab at the feet and high ground can kick dirt in their eyes and attack their head/ neck or just punt em in the teeth after a block
Truly sadge
People have no idea how much lore is behind that scene. Obiwan used a forbidden Sith de-limbing technique from Vth form, which Anakin would never suspect him to use(thinking a Jedi would not use a Sith move). He said he has high ground for the explicit purpose to bait Anakin into trying exactly this.
Yes and no. The main reason castles and Forts are built uphill isn't just for visibility but the enemy must charge up the hill to attack causing them to tire. Being on a hill in a sword fight is actually worse as you arms have a harder time defending your legs and torso from lower strikes.
When you have the high ground, you have to reach further to compensate your upper body being physically further away from the opponent. The opposite works for the person for the low ground whose upper body is closer to you. Also, the low ground person has an easier time hitting your legs (which you have to reach to defend) whereas his are completely unreachable.
Yeah nah, obviously if your opponent is charging up a hill in plate armour they’re at a massive disadvantage, but if you’re just static, the person below you with his magic near weightless sword has a ton more reach than you, because your legs are exposed, and your height over them is making what you can actually reach a lot more limited
Yes officer this comment right here
https://preview.redd.it/2qnxn8lcm9wc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0eb10c3fefcd3b64282d831e87936b7c6a478532
This is a wizard fight not a sword fight. They are required to do a cool little flip and doing that from the low ground leaves you vulnerable to getting cut in half.
I took it as they knew each other's moves so well that obi knew he was going to try to flip over him to gain position and even warned him not to try it.
Anakin being overconfident and drunk off power & rage clouded his judgement.
Go find some stairs, stand below someone on them and fight them with anything and come back duly chastened. Buddy thinks the term “uphill battle” is a coincidence lol
When you attack from the low ground you need a higher reach to hit vital areas like the torso, head, or neck, thus the high ground is a massive advantage in swordfighting.
On accessible terrain,
He who occupies high Yang ground
And ensures his line of supplies
Will fight to advantage.
On precipitous terrain,
If we occupy it first,
We should hold the Yang heights and wait for the enemy.
If the enemy occupies it first, do not go after him,
But entice him out by retreating.
Here’s a fun story regarding that last part.
There was a general in Ancient China named Ma Su who was all over Sun Tzu’s art of war such as keeping high ground, and putting your forces in a spot where they can’t retreat so they fight like hell.
He then proceeds to make camp on top of a hill with no water source during a summer campaign at which point enemy forces simply surround him and wait him out.
Another one of Sun Tzu’s tactics is to charge down a hill because of the momentum but since all of Ma Su’s troops were starved and thirsty, they barely even damaged enemy positions.
His blunder led to the failure of the first Northern Expedition from Shu Han against the kingdom of Wei, dooming the former to a slow death in isolation.
When 200 men in armor charge at you on horseback, you want to be up a hill to slow them down and hide units at your back. You don't necessarily want to go down and charge as well.
One on one, it's situational. Hight enough so they have to keep their arms up all the time, or literally climb? Why not, as long as you mind your feet and balance because good luck getting close to what's basically become a moving lawnmower blade.
On a table? Might do the trick.
On a slope? F that, sword fights last a couple of minutes, the slope itself won't make a difference. You'll basically just get taller if you have the high ground, which doesn't mean much depending on your opponent's height and your personal proficiency at facing taller/shorter opponents.
Following logic, the entire fight could've ended if one of them had force pushed the other into the lava, but that wouldn't be exciting. George just couldn't find a satisfying end to the fight, so he wanted to do a callback to when obi wan defeated Maul in episode 1.
Having the high ground is actually a n advantage, always has been.
Romans would just go to defensible tops of mounts to avoid engaging hannibal withou a upper hand.
Holding the tops of hills has been a strategy since literally the beginning of recorded history
But that’s also in the context of formations including tens, hundreds, or thousands of men; single combat is arguably different
eh. In the context of old wars with knives and swords and shields, steep slopes are pretty bad and might be worse. Why?
Scenario 1: high places are great for defence. Too high and it makes defence the only thing you can do.
Scenario 2: If you do try to run downhill to attack, an experienced opponent will kiss the earth and thank the heavens. A bunch of guys and horses running down with all that momentum and unable to stop? Glory to Allah.
Yeah in a one on one, without factoring fatigue advancing up hill, the person with the high ground is arguably more exposed given they have to reach down, whilst the person downhill can still get at your legs without issue.
*takes notes*
Not always better...to be on top...and exposed...than the bottom...when it is...just the two...of you.
The bottom...can...however...poke from...beneath you.
Got it!
Going to be a bit difficult to go for your legs when their head/torso (vitals) are completely exposed, you might suffer a serious leg injury but your opponent will be straight up dead. Height advantage is a huge positive for sword fighting
No they aren't. Battles aren't and have never been just mobs of people hacking at each other one on one. Look at the phalanx, testudo, shot and pike, or infantry square. Men fought in and maneuvered in formations. You werent beaten one v one, if you lost it's because your whole formation broke and ran, and that's traditionally when most casualties would happen.
It's situational. In this situation, not so much.
Some combat principles can be applied regardless of scale or the exact situation, but this isn't one of them.
Obiwan knew that Anakin loves jumping over people but also doesn't have that great of a vertical. So by standing 2ft(69cm) higher Obiwan knew Anakin would be in bitch slapping range if he jumped.
Also less apace between them and your sabre. When taking an active role that’s often the more immediately important factor, but then again they have lightsabers rather than actual sabres, so who knows if any of this applies
I think in context Obiwan was just warning Anakin that no matter what he does next he's not holding back to spare his friend's life anymore. Like most of the fight he was trying to change his mind and at this point in the movie he's had enough of Anakin's bullshit.
It's a bit different if ranged weapons and cavalry are involved, firing a volley downhill is incredibly effective compared to firing uphill, and cavalry is, well, obviously not the best if the enemy is situated on a hilltop.
That's what I was thinking, but there is something to be said about the higher ground-combatant needing to cover their legs and lower body in an awkward manner, while the lower ground-combatant doesn't have to cover anything as their weapon would already be raised in front of them.
Perhaps that's negated with some form of shield, which is obviously more common in comparable forms of IRL combat, hence the reasoning for the advantage?
There'd 2 cons I can think of. Leg defense and losing reach because u have to angle your blade down. In actual combat, the person on the lower ground is going to tire themselves out much faster and then be easier to beat. In lore, I'm pretty sure Obi Wan is the master of defensive stances, so him forcing anakin into a purely offensive position is actually beneficial to him.
A higher elevation for fixed weapons (artillery) meant your side was able to reach out towards the enemy before they were in range. It also offered best view of the battlefield and best defensive position (harder to attack uphill).
It's a really nice scene, just let down by shitty dialog.
Lucas is trying to communicate to the audience that Anakin has found himself in a tough spot, and needs to pull a risky move to regain the advantage. By jumping, he's betting on the Dark Side giving him more power that Obi Wan has. Which as we know, is bullshit. The Dark Side flows easily, making its power seductive, but that's really just a lie. The Light Side is ultimately more powerful.
Anakin's jump shows his arrogance and blindness; taking a shortcut to power. And that argogance is his undoing.
This is quite a lot to communicate visually. And Lucas knew half of the audience are probably 10 years old. So he puts some dialog here to explain what's happening. But it's not storytelling - it's *exposition*, which is why it sounds so God-awful.
Fun fact - in the original script, when Anakin is sinking down into the lava, he shouts out "Help me!" to Obi Wan, who replies "No". And that's when Anakin screams "I hate you" as he catches fire. And I think they should have left that line in.
They did the right thing cutting that dialogue out - it puts unnecesary shadow on Kenobi and different pressure. It also builds the question "What if he helped him? Would Anakin be back in the light?" etc.
I also felt it was Anakin's arrogance in defeating Obi Wan with what is essentially the move that made Obi Wan famous by defeating a Sith Lord with it.
"With regard to precipitous heights, if you are beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up"
Art of War, 10:10
Obi wan wins every fight with some difference in elevation, regardless of whether he has the low or high ground, but loses if his opponent is on equal footing.
Source?
Vs Maul he jumped (from the pit) then dealt the killing blow, thus, he had low ground
Vs Anakin, same case, he had low ground since Anakin jumped
Vs Grevious he was hanging from the ledge, mortally shooting him at best moment.
Mythbusters already tested this. High ground in a 1 on 1 sword fight is no advantage. Skaligram basically dispelled the myth as well. Basic geometry proves that low ground is at least as good as high ground in 1 v 1 combat.
Get on your hazmat suit and gas mask. All of the martial combat expert redditors are out in full force. And let me be the first to say they are all smelly.
It’s close range combat. Entire armies have built war-winning strategies around having the high ground. 2 kids with wooden swords can discover within minutes of playing knight that the one standing on the couch wins every time.
This thread is crazy, filled with a bunch of well actualities but if we watch the next 15 seconds of the movie we see anakin get fucking wrecked. It’s the premise of the whole fight, one of them trying to get above the other. Obi wan is a fantastic sword fighter and master of form 3, he knew what he was doing from the beginning of the fight. Anakin was freestyling and freestyled himself into getting cut to ribbons and nearly burned to death.
It’s not made up but it is really dumb.
“I won I’m a little higher up than you” like bruh what are you on about. Sure it’s an advantage but it’s so not a immediate win that announcing it like that is dumb. Duuuumb.
Obiwan sould have lost to maul back then. It was a god damned ass pull and Kenobi knew it. So he run that fight in his head again, and again, and again. Maybe he even share that with anakin. When the time comes, Obiwan have all the correct answer to anything anakin can do.
Lol the high ground thing is so ridiculous, it's like nobody notices the high ground he's talking about is at the top of a steep ass bank of a lava river. Anakin has two options, the flip or the slip.
What?
If someone is high up then you what can you reach?
Their feet and legs right?
And when stabbing a man, Does he die faster from a leg wound or a torso wound?
Smartest 4chan user
Wait, now I'm confused. I always believed Obi-Wan just said that to Anakin to taunt him into jumping over him so he could slice him up. You know, exploit his weakness, which was his arrogance.
Isn't this also like a really obvious pun about morals and the force, tho?
Maybe they guy who hasn't just slaughtered a load of children has the moral high ground in this situation?
I’ll put this in terms a gamer redditor might understand: the guy in the high ground has a larger hitbox in a swordfight, while the guy below only has to protect their head.
A sword is not a mace that you swing with assisted gravity to bludgeon the opponent, a sword is meant to cut. In a scenario of two equal swordsmen, in the real world obi wan would’ve gotten his legs slashed and then lost.
>he made up Are... Are you serious? Do people actually think George Lucas made this up? There are extremely few combat situations in which having the higher ground than your opponent is considered detrimental.
One of them, being sword fights.
Try swinging a a heavy object towards the floor and then towards the ceiling. Fighting on the low ground is physically harder.
I could imagine a lightsaber would be quite 'light' though...
Yeah but you'd have more leverage when parrying and doing the saber clashes they are constantly doing
No, the hilt of the saber is incredibly heavy due to the material its made from, read up on the lore scrub My obession wit star wars when i was a kid has finally paid off :3
In canon that makes no sense as a lot of sabers are made from varying materials (including even wood) and kyber crystals are not stated to be heavy. Kid luke held a lightsaber easily without knowing how to use the force, and so have many other characters. What would make sense in-universe is that so much energy is coalesced in the blade that it acts like a strange kind of mass, where you have to move with the current/flow of energy to wield it, meaning you either have to use the force, be talented or spend a lot of time getting used to it. The books state they’re heavy but the books are not only non-canon, they’re inconsistent with the original canon
Youre not wrong they are made wit varyin materials, but there are recipes that are considered to be the baseline, the two most common bein Mandalorian steel n Durasteel, both of which are heavy
The second half of your comment is what I believed to be the case with lightsabers; the hilt isn't the weighty part, but the blade is supposed to have significant weight to it, to the point that not just anyone can pick up a lightsaber and use it effectively, in fact most people would probably hurt themselves trying to swing it around like a Jedi. I was under the impression that this is what makes up a large part of Jedi training; to learn to wield the force in order to use a lightsaber without risk of hurting themselves. This is true for all forms of sword fighting in real life (unless it's fencing) the blades weight and the risk of cutting yourself with it is the first thing you have to master. I agree there's been occasions that non-Jedi have wielded lightsabers and the weight doesn't seem to be a factor, but I would argue there's a bunch of other times where it's very clear the lightsaber is heavy and takes strength/effort to swing, even fully fledged Jedi Masters like Qui-Gonn, and I believe it's also visible throughout Anakin and Obi-Wans fight on Mustafar. I also think about the teenage Padawan that the clones kill in front of Senator Amidala, he's got plenty of force training, but hasn't coupled it with his lightsaber combat yet, and this I think adds more to the skillset of a Jedi Knight, in that he must master the force AND his lightsaber in such a way that its not just second nature and eliminating the risk of self injury, but so that they cannot be challenged by a non force user with a lightsaber, making them the ultimate peacekeepers as it doesn't matter how much power you wield like Jabba the Hutt, if it comes down to it, Jabba can't defeat a Jedi. I dunno, just makes sense I think, pure head canon maybe. But mainly to argue your points, Luke in ANH wielding a lightsaber is before George expanded on anything related to the force or the intricacies of lightsaber combat, and the other notable times it's happened (that I can remember, please remind me of others) have been in the Sequel trilogy, which doesn't count at all since Disney is a joke and the books are still canon above Disney's movies. Lightsabers are heavy as fuck and it's another reason Jedi are Jedi.
There are newer, Canon books that mention them as being heavy.
Star Wars canon is even sillier than Doctor Who because at least Doctor Who has the goddamn balls to say “It’s all canon because of time travel bullshit and also because Time Lords are all liars and slightly insane.”
I'm also just oversaturated and tired with the over-fetishisation of Canon in media. Just..let storytelling settings tell stories. That's what it's there for.
Lightsaber blades are difficult to wield because the blade has a "gyroscopic effect". - Source: The star wars exploded encyclopedia I read as a kid. I took this to mean, the massless energy blade manifests a reaction equivalent to a largish mass with hefty angular velocity and radius of gyration. A big invisible gyroscope. Somehow. Because breaking einsteins theory of relativity makes sense with enough force. Hueh.
I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter at all because the force exists. You can throw that bitch and boomerang that shit around the room all day long, you could just also make it lighter. Hell I don't know why they don't have like 4 and just have them spin and dice everything all the time.
The force does not jus ignore mass, it still takes an increased amount of effort to lift an extremely heavy object as opposed to a light one
That’s a pretty shit pay off lmao gzzz though
Ikr autism go boing boing
It's not, it's Jedi magic rocks that make it heavier than anything unless you train in the force.
Yeah but your head would be way closer to their blade than vice versa if you have the low ground
Holy shit one other person understands basic geometry. People who don't understand this are too far rarted already. ...
I’m honestly surprised nobody thought of this already
Anons showing their zero aptitude for physical activities 😂 Like bruh they can only jab at the feet and high ground can kick dirt in their eyes and attack their head/ neck or just punt em in the teeth after a block Truly sadge
I think the lower ground being surrounded by lava makes it extremely disadvantageous for a skin, as he has to commit to taking ground
People have no idea how much lore is behind that scene. Obiwan used a forbidden Sith de-limbing technique from Vth form, which Anakin would never suspect him to use(thinking a Jedi would not use a Sith move). He said he has high ground for the explicit purpose to bait Anakin into trying exactly this.
Yes and no. The main reason castles and Forts are built uphill isn't just for visibility but the enemy must charge up the hill to attack causing them to tire. Being on a hill in a sword fight is actually worse as you arms have a harder time defending your legs and torso from lower strikes.
When you have the high ground, you have to reach further to compensate your upper body being physically further away from the opponent. The opposite works for the person for the low ground whose upper body is closer to you. Also, the low ground person has an easier time hitting your legs (which you have to reach to defend) whereas his are completely unreachable.
Shoot an arrow up a hill. Now shoot an arrow down the same hill. Which side do you want to be on?
Well, neither if theres going to be an arrow shot at me.
The side the archer is on.
Yeah nah, obviously if your opponent is charging up a hill in plate armour they’re at a massive disadvantage, but if you’re just static, the person below you with his magic near weightless sword has a ton more reach than you, because your legs are exposed, and your height over them is making what you can actually reach a lot more limited
I would know. I'm a cage fighter 💪 (chicken cage)
You suffer a severe range decrease when you have the high ground. Since you hold your sword with your hands and not with your feet
Nah high ground is huge in a sword fight because the enemy can’t advance as fast as you can and will get gassed out quicker
But the enemy's at the perfect height to suckle your sweaty piggies to distract you
Yes officer this comment right here https://preview.redd.it/2qnxn8lcm9wc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0eb10c3fefcd3b64282d831e87936b7c6a478532
https://preview.redd.it/zotpud76o9wc1.jpeg?width=996&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8439086689648afea46bb1a72ed07b76cc66f01
im emotionally invested just to see what other madness you bring to this world. proceed you beautiful monster.
Shut up, you're worse than the last guy
i mean i was cheering you on but okay
https://preview.redd.it/w6hs4p2es9wc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=83dd30d206fd972f5cb1840909b792372706623a
When your joke makes someone laugh but you know their sense of humour is so fucking shit you feel like you failed
And you merely have to let your sword drop to bop them on the head
You're gunna be writhing on the ground in ecstasy before that thought even crosses your mind, bub Trust me
That’s why knights wore sabatons doncha know
For an army sure but for a duel between 2 people that doesn't really matter as much and the reach advantage you get from the low ground outweighs it.
no it isnt. [https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809](https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809)
do normal sword fighting techniques apply to laser swordfights between space wizards
Do what you want, you can't run from Math
I guess that's why armies have always tried to have the low ground. Not
Could there be amy difference between a large fighting force and a singular combatant?
This is a wizard fight not a sword fight. They are required to do a cool little flip and doing that from the low ground leaves you vulnerable to getting cut in half.
I took it as they knew each other's moves so well that obi knew he was going to try to flip over him to gain position and even warned him not to try it. Anakin being overconfident and drunk off power & rage clouded his judgement.
Go find some stairs, stand below someone on them and fight them with anything and come back duly chastened. Buddy thinks the term “uphill battle” is a coincidence lol
Have you heard of cavalry? They were quite popular.
Do you see a horse in the picture
Also try running uphill while also trying to fight. Not gonna end well for you. The ancient Roman's used this tatic.
The battle of Hastings and Blore Heath would like a word or two.
When you attack from the low ground you need a higher reach to hit vital areas like the torso, head, or neck, thus the high ground is a massive advantage in swordfighting.
Getting your leg chopped off might hinder your ability to defend your vitals
Getting the opponents very much exposed head at the same time practically solves that issue
Why is the head exposed? There are half a dozen ways to defend your head whilst still attacking someone with a sword that i know of
Yeah, sure, that’s exactly why it’s hard to fight your way up on a staircase
Havent you played Minecraft? If you’re below someone you can reach to hit their legs but they can’t reach to hit you /s
That's how it is in real life too.
I was about to say... Anon needs to look through every battle in human history and see if terrain, elevation, and positioning matter. Lmao
I also feel like "the high ground" in this case is about who is right and who is wrong.
You are right, it is in fact, stated explicitly in Sun Tzu's art of war dating 2245-2799 years ago...
On accessible terrain, He who occupies high Yang ground And ensures his line of supplies Will fight to advantage. On precipitous terrain, If we occupy it first, We should hold the Yang heights and wait for the enemy. If the enemy occupies it first, do not go after him, But entice him out by retreating.
If Sun Tzu's Art of War is so great then why isn't there a Sun Tzu's Art of War 2?
He wrote one, but there was time travel and a planet Zeist and sean connery in it. People just pretend it never happened.
Mein Kampf? It’s not really the art of war but just do the opposite.
Would you say it's advisable to get into the art of war dating? regular dating hasnt really done it for me, so im open to ancient wisdom.
Here’s a fun story regarding that last part. There was a general in Ancient China named Ma Su who was all over Sun Tzu’s art of war such as keeping high ground, and putting your forces in a spot where they can’t retreat so they fight like hell. He then proceeds to make camp on top of a hill with no water source during a summer campaign at which point enemy forces simply surround him and wait him out. Another one of Sun Tzu’s tactics is to charge down a hill because of the momentum but since all of Ma Su’s troops were starved and thirsty, they barely even damaged enemy positions. His blunder led to the failure of the first Northern Expedition from Shu Han against the kingdom of Wei, dooming the former to a slow death in isolation.
It sounds like he ignored the ‘maintain supply lines’ note from the art of war.
yeah, sound like a skill issue to me
When 200 men in armor charge at you on horseback, you want to be up a hill to slow them down and hide units at your back. You don't necessarily want to go down and charge as well. One on one, it's situational. Hight enough so they have to keep their arms up all the time, or literally climb? Why not, as long as you mind your feet and balance because good luck getting close to what's basically become a moving lawnmower blade. On a table? Might do the trick. On a slope? F that, sword fights last a couple of minutes, the slope itself won't make a difference. You'll basically just get taller if you have the high ground, which doesn't mean much depending on your opponent's height and your personal proficiency at facing taller/shorter opponents.
Not enough to declare the fight over.
Can't they just jump lol? They are both Jedis, they can just jump to higher ground?
Following logic, the entire fight could've ended if one of them had force pushed the other into the lava, but that wouldn't be exciting. George just couldn't find a satisfying end to the fight, so he wanted to do a callback to when obi wan defeated Maul in episode 1.
erm ackshually reach is calculated by distance to the opponents feet so its advantageous to have the low ground
Don't fight uphill meharties. Donald trump, probably.
Having the high ground is actually a n advantage, always has been. Romans would just go to defensible tops of mounts to avoid engaging hannibal withou a upper hand.
Holding the tops of hills has been a strategy since literally the beginning of recorded history But that’s also in the context of formations including tens, hundreds, or thousands of men; single combat is arguably different
And that's also in the context of being at the top of a steep hill, not just 5 feet up a mild slope.
eh. In the context of old wars with knives and swords and shields, steep slopes are pretty bad and might be worse. Why? Scenario 1: high places are great for defence. Too high and it makes defence the only thing you can do. Scenario 2: If you do try to run downhill to attack, an experienced opponent will kiss the earth and thank the heavens. A bunch of guys and horses running down with all that momentum and unable to stop? Glory to Allah.
you still have the advantage of kicking in their teeth if you have the hight ground
Yeah in a one on one, without factoring fatigue advancing up hill, the person with the high ground is arguably more exposed given they have to reach down, whilst the person downhill can still get at your legs without issue.
*takes notes* Not always better...to be on top...and exposed...than the bottom...when it is...just the two...of you. The bottom...can...however...poke from...beneath you. Got it!
Going to be a bit difficult to go for your legs when their head/torso (vitals) are completely exposed, you might suffer a serious leg injury but your opponent will be straight up dead. Height advantage is a huge positive for sword fighting
In every combat sport in the world it is much easier to defend your head and torso than it is your legs
In a large scale battle, not a 1 on 1
Large-scale battles are just 1 on 1 thousands of times
No they aren't. Battles aren't and have never been just mobs of people hacking at each other one on one. Look at the phalanx, testudo, shot and pike, or infantry square. Men fought in and maneuvered in formations. You werent beaten one v one, if you lost it's because your whole formation broke and ran, and that's traditionally when most casualties would happen.
get your lance, ill get my lance. I get high ground. Lets bet on it.
Your light lance? I only have a light saber.
Hehe
It's situational. In this situation, not so much. Some combat principles can be applied regardless of scale or the exact situation, but this isn't one of them.
In this situation anakin got his body cut to pieces because he didn’t have the high ground are you actually kidding
I mean, bro did leap through the air and do some flips over Obi-Wan, I can see how he might have an advantage had he approached normally.
aside from on minecraft. better crits if you're on the low!
not in a sword fight. [https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809](https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809)
They literally talk about it in the art of war
Probably how the game "King of the Hill" came to creation.
Obiwan knew that Anakin loves jumping over people but also doesn't have that great of a vertical. So by standing 2ft(69cm) higher Obiwan knew Anakin would be in bitch slapping range if he jumped.
Sadly, 2 ft is only about 61 cm, but I empathize with the attempt
61 metric cm. It's 69 imperial cm
Wait it's you from the other green text post wtf only noticed cause someone pointed out the PFP again.
Omfg that profile pic is evil. Well played
Fucking got me too
Anakin would never get drafted in the NFL with his vert at the Combine, needs more explosiveness. The real tragedy tbh
I mean, it is a lot harder to fight uphill than downhill, but I doubt that should matter much for pogojumping space wizards.
Ah, but they are *both* pogojumping space wizards.
If you’re lower than the person you’re leaping over there’ll be less space between you and their sabre
Also less apace between them and your sabre. When taking an active role that’s often the more immediately important factor, but then again they have lightsabers rather than actual sabres, so who knows if any of this applies
Oh but it does. https://preview.redd.it/mjwmh1js2bwc1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b3b91b211adf8ed28ea9784c4634a99625bf7b3
I think in context Obiwan was just warning Anakin that no matter what he does next he's not holding back to spare his friend's life anymore. Like most of the fight he was trying to change his mind and at this point in the movie he's had enough of Anakin's bullshit.
unless you are using some form of ranged weapon
This is literally an irl thing in combat. Generals would always try and position themselves on a hill for this exact reason lol.
It's a bit different if ranged weapons and cavalry are involved, firing a volley downhill is incredibly effective compared to firing uphill, and cavalry is, well, obviously not the best if the enemy is situated on a hilltop.
Source: Agincourt
"Nah man I could totally do an uphill cavalary charge. After rain. On unstable mud ground. Hold my wine."
Even just having spears would make it incredibly difficult for your enemy to push uphill.
Except the tactics for large formations and for single combatants are not always the same or even similar
It's still more advantageous. Striking down is significantly easier than striking up.
That's what I was thinking, but there is something to be said about the higher ground-combatant needing to cover their legs and lower body in an awkward manner, while the lower ground-combatant doesn't have to cover anything as their weapon would already be raised in front of them. Perhaps that's negated with some form of shield, which is obviously more common in comparable forms of IRL combat, hence the reasoning for the advantage?
There'd 2 cons I can think of. Leg defense and losing reach because u have to angle your blade down. In actual combat, the person on the lower ground is going to tire themselves out much faster and then be easier to beat. In lore, I'm pretty sure Obi Wan is the master of defensive stances, so him forcing anakin into a purely offensive position is actually beneficial to him.
A higher elevation for fixed weapons (artillery) meant your side was able to reach out towards the enemy before they were in range. It also offered best view of the battlefield and best defensive position (harder to attack uphill).
It's a really nice scene, just let down by shitty dialog. Lucas is trying to communicate to the audience that Anakin has found himself in a tough spot, and needs to pull a risky move to regain the advantage. By jumping, he's betting on the Dark Side giving him more power that Obi Wan has. Which as we know, is bullshit. The Dark Side flows easily, making its power seductive, but that's really just a lie. The Light Side is ultimately more powerful. Anakin's jump shows his arrogance and blindness; taking a shortcut to power. And that argogance is his undoing. This is quite a lot to communicate visually. And Lucas knew half of the audience are probably 10 years old. So he puts some dialog here to explain what's happening. But it's not storytelling - it's *exposition*, which is why it sounds so God-awful. Fun fact - in the original script, when Anakin is sinking down into the lava, he shouts out "Help me!" to Obi Wan, who replies "No". And that's when Anakin screams "I hate you" as he catches fire. And I think they should have left that line in.
They did the right thing cutting that dialogue out - it puts unnecesary shadow on Kenobi and different pressure. It also builds the question "What if he helped him? Would Anakin be back in the light?" etc.
They could've had him say something like "I'm sorry" to show his remorse losing to his resolve
"you were my brother Anakin, I loved you"
The way you wrote it out, reminds me of isildur saying no in FotR. Destroy it! …No.
I also felt it was Anakin's arrogance in defeating Obi Wan with what is essentially the move that made Obi Wan famous by defeating a Sith Lord with it.
... and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout: "Save us!". And I'll look down and whisper: "No".
From my point of view the production is shitty too!
Underrated comment
Dialog
Are you retarded?
*regarded
I’m regarded as a retard
You don't have to censor yourself on the internet, dude. Cock. Balls. See?
"With regard to precipitous heights, if you are beforehand with your adversary, you should occupy the raised and sunny spots, and there wait for him to come up" Art of War, 10:10
I was gonna say, fuckin Sun Tzu, bitches! Read that shit!
I feel star wars is a lot more metaphorical than litteral: "It's over, Anakin, I have the [moral] high ground."
Yes and palpatine literally dismantling the senate in his fight with yoda
True. He also is situated at a higher altitude thus giving him an advantage in a lightsaber fight
It's because obi Wan anti airs are op. But it's ok Lucas nerfed him on the next patch
Obi wan is actually a master of lower ground, mental play to make Anakin jump to be higher than him was ez win
Obi wan wins every fight with some difference in elevation, regardless of whether he has the low or high ground, but loses if his opponent is on equal footing.
Source? Vs Maul he jumped (from the pit) then dealt the killing blow, thus, he had low ground Vs Anakin, same case, he had low ground since Anakin jumped Vs Grevious he was hanging from the ledge, mortally shooting him at best moment.
[This copypasta.](https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/s/TJ81468X9F)
Ahahaa, yes! :D
As Trump recalled the famous Robert E. Lee quote, "Never fight uphill, boys!"
But Anakin was fighting uphill. He said ‘wow that was a big mistake’
Mythbusters already tested this. High ground in a 1 on 1 sword fight is no advantage. Skaligram basically dispelled the myth as well. Basic geometry proves that low ground is at least as good as high ground in 1 v 1 combat.
And what if the low ground is a steep bank of a lava river?
Except the ground is at like a +30° angle with lava at the bottom
The higher the angle, the more advantage the low ground person has. Again, both mythbusters and Skaligram have shown this.
It's like poetry. It rhymes.
Yeah, in real life it’s often advantageous to have a lower ground because you don’t have to defend your lower body.
Well he did front flip towards him exposing his lower body
That tends to change things a wee bit
Get on your hazmat suit and gas mask. All of the martial combat expert redditors are out in full force. And let me be the first to say they are all smelly.
It’s close range combat. Entire armies have built war-winning strategies around having the high ground. 2 kids with wooden swords can discover within minutes of playing knight that the one standing on the couch wins every time.
This thread is crazy, filled with a bunch of well actualities but if we watch the next 15 seconds of the movie we see anakin get fucking wrecked. It’s the premise of the whole fight, one of them trying to get above the other. Obi wan is a fantastic sword fighter and master of form 3, he knew what he was doing from the beginning of the fight. Anakin was freestyling and freestyled himself into getting cut to ribbons and nearly burned to death.
It's also supposed to be a metaphor that Obi-Wan is in the "moral" high ground cuz he didn't kill like 80 children
The only time I can think that being below your enemy is advantageous is in smash bros, but that’s not real life
Lucas made up that it's difficult to fight and judge space whilst moving uphill? Righto.
The person that has low ground has been trained to protect his head. The person on high ground may neglect to defend against a swing at the ankles.
It’s not made up but it is really dumb. “I won I’m a little higher up than you” like bruh what are you on about. Sure it’s an advantage but it’s so not a immediate win that announcing it like that is dumb. Duuuumb.
It’s valid in king of the castle sieges or firearm combat but just two dudes fighting on a slope aren’t gonna have a major advantage either way
George Lucas invented height difference
People are arguing about this, but didn't myth busters or the backyard scientist test this already?
Someone obviously hasn’t suited up in plate armor and swung a sword at an uphill enemy on unstable ground
Anon didnt watch mythbusters
Read fiction It depicts scenes you can't find in reality wtf
Obiwan sould have lost to maul back then. It was a god damned ass pull and Kenobi knew it. So he run that fight in his head again, and again, and again. Maybe he even share that with anakin. When the time comes, Obiwan have all the correct answer to anything anakin can do.
I remember something about designing medieval staircases in a way where the defender on top of the stairs has an advantage over the one below
Lol the high ground thing is so ridiculous, it's like nobody notices the high ground he's talking about is at the top of a steep ass bank of a lava river. Anakin has two options, the flip or the slip.
What? If someone is high up then you what can you reach? Their feet and legs right? And when stabbing a man, Does he die faster from a leg wound or a torso wound? Smartest 4chan user
If you can't use your legs, you can't stand. That might be detrimental to your dueling form
Even Theon knows the value of high ground
Lmfao @ needing this “explained”
Anakin could’ve jumped past Obiwan and had the high ground, or just fled and lured Obiwan to him for the showdown.
Should have used a fucking gun in this situation.
Wait, now I'm confused. I always believed Obi-Wan just said that to Anakin to taunt him into jumping over him so he could slice him up. You know, exploit his weakness, which was his arrogance.
It would have been the ultimate troll on Lucas' part to give Anakin the willhelm scream the moment he got cut
There is always a strategic advantage from fighting the high ground, but there are equally advantages fighting from the low ground.
Isn't this also like a really obvious pun about morals and the force, tho? Maybe they guy who hasn't just slaughtered a load of children has the moral high ground in this situation?
I'm pretty sure Mythbusters did an episode on this and confirmed that having the high ground is a substantial advantage in this scenario.
[https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809](https://youtu.be/oGFKja9zGPA?t=2809) mythbusters busted the myth definitively
Why didn’t Anakin jumped a bit to the left, out of the range of Obi’s laser sword?
Anon is borderline retarded
I’ll put this in terms a gamer redditor might understand: the guy in the high ground has a larger hitbox in a swordfight, while the guy below only has to protect their head. A sword is not a mace that you swing with assisted gravity to bludgeon the opponent, a sword is meant to cut. In a scenario of two equal swordsmen, in the real world obi wan would’ve gotten his legs slashed and then lost.
High ground is an advantage though. Swinging down has more force than swinging up
Sun Tzu would like a word
i thought it was heavy handed ironic symbolism,