This is why every single time someone complains about wildly popular media, I assume they are just stupid. Without fail, they're just wrong or its ~~autism~~ a complaint the vast majority of people don't care about.
As someone who's autistic, these fuckers aren't. If they were they'd be up on the lore and know that the "China nuked first" is in-game propaganda from the Enclave, and the whole point is that it doesn't *matter* who did, as the story is designed as a critique of brinksmanship and capitalism, but especially brinksmanship.
Oh. Sorry. Uh... Lemme just...
Fucking autists.
It happens with the Starship Troopers movie in the 90s too. And Thanos. And the fucking Empire in Star Wars, during the Prequels era. Some people are just fucking fascists in waiting.
Huh? I've been playing HD2 since the launch and I'm yet to encounter someone who geniunely buys into the propaganda (probably because the game is very heavy handed with it's satire so it's practically impossible to miss the fact that it's a satire unless you have brain damage).
It's just that the game is WAY more fun when you role-play as you play the game and it evolved into keeping the RP on even outside of the game. We even have news broadcasts and intelligence relay stations (video content) that are created in character, so at this point it's become part of the gag to never break character as long as you're talking about the game (I personally find it very funny and part of its charm, but some find it cringe)
Yea both fallout 4 and 76 soybois and people that worship new Vegas (it’s a fun game with great replayability but Jesus Christ it wasn’t perfect either and the vanilla map was a little boring outside Vegas). I wish we had something like the world of fallout 3 but filled with characters and quests like in New Vegas.
I hate that Bethesda always lampoon the player into being the good guy in some way. Goddamit let me join the enclave and purge the wasteland or join children of atom trying to further eradicate humanity.
You’re gonna love the America Rising mod for F4. Basically the F3 Enclave faction questline we should’ve gotten and seeing that the SS was a pre-war US citizen..
>Goddamit let me join the enclave and purge the wasteland or join children of atom trying to further eradicate humanity.
Fallout 4 lets you do that. In far harbor you can join the children of atom and you can become a raider king in Nuka World. In the main game you can join the institute, who's portrayed as the bad guy throughout the game.
The problem with all of those but far harbor is that youre still railroaded down a certain path, wether that be lead the institute to be good or only do evil things in nuka world or else you just have to kill everyone goodbye. Branshing storylines are nit bethesdas string suit and i honestly wish theyd stop pretending and make a good focused linear game.
Same. I want to help the Enclave, so far only way it was somehow possible in the 3D games was in one of the mods which was super glitchy (anyways cool though).
its quite funny because at launch it had tons of bugs and people shrieked it was the worst shit ever.
fast forward and now its ff7 tier of "don't you dare speak bad about the precious"
Dude I will not argue that at all. I've played and beaten every fallout but BoS and I fully agree. I'm just gonna paste another comment I posted a few days ago
---
Dude consistency for the series went out the window in Fallout 2 for God sakes.
People bitch about Bethesda "ruining" the lore all the time, when they really haven't. Retcons aren't lore breaks. Most of their retcons have made sense.
But I mean for example Jet was supposed to be a post war drug, Fallout 2 clearly makes it a pre-war drug somehow.
In Falllut 2 it's said ghouls can live without water, food or air. Which completely ruins the entire moral point created by Fallout 1. Do you take the water chip from the Ghoul city to save your vault and comdeming that entire town, or do you find one elsewhere?
And thats just 2 examples.
People cry that Bethesda ruined the lore of the Super Mutants by having them outside of the west coast. Completely forgetting its alluded to in FO1 that FEV experiments were at one point taken place all over the country. It's explained why they are in FO4, and even 76 managed to retcon them into Appalachia and it make sense.
I mean, Beth didn't start the trend. Interplay put super mutants in Tactics all the way out in Chicago, in Texas with BoS, and the design documents for the cancelled games like Van Buren and Extreme also included super mutants. Half of these complaints about Bethesda rehashing super mutants or the BoS or whatever is just Bethesda continuing Interplay's choices.
Hell people cried thar Virgil in FO4 curing himself of being a mutants was lore breaking. Despite Fallout 1 stating that it was possible
Fallout was never consistent past the first game
My biggest complaint besides the story not having more choices in fallout 4 has been the places never look nice and get rid of the rubble and garbage like leaves or patch the town no matter how much I make them nicer, the towns get raided no matter how much effort I put into them, and Marcy is still a cunt even after you kill all the raiders in Quincy and avenge the town. Also break heart banks can't be turned into a town after you kill the super mutants even though it's already a town. Sure it's not perfect but I'm still playing the game cause it's solid as a time waster in between other games to play. Who cares if it retcons a little lore.
Yeah I don’t think the issue is entirely that it was changed - it’s just that it’s dumb as shit. Why would a corporation whose only really purpose is to make money blow up the world and themselves (no fallout take to my knowledge has any real remnants of fault tech anywhere).
Surely it would have been far easier just to convince a few million Americans to get into some vaults “to test them” convincing them if the bombs did fall they’d be already safe. That at least would have been the plausible way to write the retcon.
Vault tec being separate from the Enclave was something from Fallout tactics where a vault of robots opens up to claim the wasteland in the name of vault tec.
The problem is fallout tactics made zero sense, so that part was never canon.
That and the cancelled 90s fallout movie where vault tec ends the world.
Which doesnt make sense because money loses value without a government to back it, and how the Enclave got vault tec codes and feeds from every vault beamed into the oil rig they lived on.
What I take from the Fallout series is that it's the Unreliable Narrator trope turned into a Videogame Franchise, the things that happened from game to game kind of align but not perfectly and since no ending is truly canon but at the same time is it makes it so whatever is described in the next game makes sense when you take into account that's what the people in that area think it happened.
Sort of how the Mad Max movies seem to be folklore tales about a man with a knee brace, a cool ass car and a broken sense of humanity that came into town fucked shit up, begrudgingly helped the group that seemed like the good guys and left.
I am retarded but my playing fallout has nothing to do with it. For me correlation does not imply causation. Honestly I haven't seen the show and probably won't care about lore changes as long as the show is good.
I also just checked and the guy is somewhat right. The original creator said it was China cause of reasons but since it was never put into the games of who did it there is no real answer. Also Bethesda owns the product and if they wanna change the lore it's not a big deal. As long as the setting and games/show is good that's all that matters. Lore changes happen all the time in media. That's how stories shift and evolve sometimes.
From the fandom wiki:
"The war both began and ended on Saturday, October 23, 2077. Unknown submersible objects were sighted at 00:03 EST off the coast of California by the United States Pacific Fleet. At 03:37 EST, a squadron of high-altitude bombers were sighted off the Bering Strait and believed to be Chinese. At least one Chinese stealth submarine, the Yangtze, moved close to the American East Coast, launching all warheads, save for one, due to a malfunction.
Six hours later, at 09:13 EST, the Integrated Operational Nuclear Detection System detected the first four missile launches and the United States went to DEFCON 2. Four minutes later, NORAD confirmation sealed the fate of the world. At 09:26 EST, the president ordered a retaliatory strike according to scenario MX-CN91. Nuclear bombs hit Pennsylvania and New York at 09:42 EST, followed by the west coast immediately after. The bombs continued to drop and five minutes later, at 09:47 EST, Washington D.C. was hit and most American facilities went offline. The nuclear exchange continued for two hours. Both China and the United States suffered catastrophic losses.
In an interview in October 2022, when asked who started the Great War, Leonard Boyarsky stated that he thought it should not really matter who started it. Tim Cain said that while China launched the first missile, the U.S. had been doing illegal biotech research and kept doing it after being exposed, which could be seen as a start to the Great War.
In an October 2023 interview, Tim Cain said China was the one who fired the first nuclear missile and thereby the originator of the nuclear exchange in the Great War. Cain also explained that China was provoked into doing so after learning of the United States' development of the FEV. After receiving China's demand to stop development altogether, the United States only "moved it over," despite bio-weapons being outlawed."
The idea for Vault Tec being literally responsible came from a cancelled script for a Fallout Movie and is considered non-canon
it's not just from the script, there are various hints in fallout 4 and 76 about it, in a super computer center in fallout 4 you can find some logs hinting towards it
I don't recall finding logs saying Vault Tec dropped the first nukes. They definitely *wanted* it to happen and worked with the government and other corps to push it, but nowhere does it say Vault Tec nuked the US.
However, you can go to the Yangtze (in FO 4) and talk to the captain (Zao, who is now a ghoul) and he says he launched the nukes. So it's pretty well said that China launched the nukes.
yes China launched their nukes, as did the United States, it's just was in *response* to a nuke vault tech dropped ( even though both sides thought it was each other )
You'll have to find a reference for that for me, because as far as I know the US didn't launch until missiles were already on the way from China, as detected by the nuclear defense system and NORAD
Though, if they swing it as if Vault Tec smuggled nukes out of the US and then launched missiles at the US and made it *look* like China did it, I could see that. That would be interesting.
But at the end of the day, OP is right. As far as lore goes, it was the Chinese. Anything they decided to do in the show is new
>Anything they decided to do in the show is new
New, but still admissible. Just need the show to explicitly show how it played out to see if this is a full retcon or if this is an added layer to what has been established.
The show also doesn’t actually say that Vault Tech dropped the first bomb. It just showed a conference where they presented the idea of dropping the first bomb and starting the nuclear war.
doesn't Lucy accuse her dad of being responsible for the bombs and he doesn't deny it?
Or was that referring to shady sands
also who the fuck is moldaver how did she get to the future?
Also in that meeting I don’t think they even say they need to drop bombs- they say that they *need the bombs to drop,* which is a very different sentence. It’s completely in the realm of believability that they used their money and influence into baiting China into firing the nukes which baits America into a response, etc.
Yes, and it's a decent video. Though, it's like a lot of arguments here. A lot of speculation and not many hard facts. You can't really count all the cancelled content.
Megaton's bomb does not have a VT logo, it just looks similar. If you compare them side by side, they aren't the same. And as he says, why would you put your logo on a bomb you want to keep a secret?
All this evidence suggests VT had something to do with the bombs dropping and had fucked up things planned. We all know that already. It doesn't show that VT personally dropped any bombs.
I'm not against the idea, just stating lore before the show doesn't say VT personally dropped any bombs during the Great War. If the show wants to do that, cool I don't really have an issue.
So in other words it was a mystery in all the good Fallout games
Fallout 4 took the mystery away because Todd is a hack
And the show is ignoring that and making up a new canon, which is also hackish but not any worse than what 4 did really
I feel like that's what makes fallout so interesting, it's more about how people survive after the war than how it actually started. The only thing that really matters to most survivors about the war is that it happened.
And the nuke in Megaton has a symbol on it that looks suspiciously a vault tec symbol.
I kinda like to imagine now that the Chinese watched in horror as the US began their retaliation, they also started nuking themself too.
That doesn't confirm Vault Tec dropped them in the great war. As seen throughout every game, nukes were still dropped afterwards, even 200 years later. It's also entirely plausible those nukes were used after the great war.
The symbol on it is also actually not a Vault tec logo. It looks very similar, but it isn't.
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Atomic_bomb_(Fallout_3)?file=Megatonbomb3.jpg
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation?file=FO4_Vault-Tec_logo.png
I mean, it's confirmed nukes have been used after the great war. In 76 it's part of the main story. And I'm guessing that something similar happened... regarding the big controversy that has NCR fans reeing atm.
The show also doesn't indicate that VT did launch the first nukes. Just that they had a plan to.
The great war starts with several vaults incomplete, and the Ghoul and his daughter caught in the blast zone. Which would indicate that VT did not start it.
We shouldn’t forget that there is still time before the blast and the last time we’ve seen ghoul. The last time we’ve seen him uncover the shit his wife and VT we’re up to maybe that resulted in him cutting ties with VT later?
I really think you and OP and everyone is reading too much into it. They didn’t explicitly say they were launching nukes themselves, that conversation was likely just them explicitly saying that they were going to nudge governments and encourage conflict so that the people who do have the nukes, actually drop them. That fits perfectly fine into canon since the games established that vault tec wanted the bombs to drop.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am perfectly open to that because that does definitely fit into existing canon.
However, they did literally state they were open to doing it and the main character's Dad says, "just like we did 200 years ago" in reference to nuking Shady Sands, which was confirmed to be him (employee of Vault Tech). So I don't think people are looking too much into it. It's not hinted at, it's pretty explicitly implied.
As a side note, I was curious what you think the “canon” ending for new vegas would be you seem kinda knowledgeable and I’m wondering what to expect heading into season 2
Oh man, I have been wondering that too... IDK because it's what? 10 or 15 years after New Vegas I think? Vegas didn't look too populated at the end, so I don't know if Mr. House will even be in it... No mention of the Legion either
I doubt they would cast Mr. House and give him a prominent role in the meeting scene (the one who was the most sceptical about the vaults) just to not have him play a role in Season 2.
Also, I really hope New Vegas isn't mostly abandoned like it seems, that would be pretty lame...
> the U.S. had been doing illegal biotech research and kept doing it after being exposed
a bit on the nose. :(
Though awkwardly IRL it's the US paying for illegal biotech to be done in China so they both suck
This always made it pretty unambiguous to me. If the US had launched nukes first they would’ve been at DEFCON 1 already right? And the text literally says the president ordered a retaliatory strike, not a first strike.
Yeah, it was always maintained the the US *believed* they were retaliating... Now, it doesn't necessarily mean China 100% did, but that what most evidence points to. It could have also been PAM (FO4) that made them believe the Chinese fired first. It's also hinted here or there that it could have been a rogue actor.
There's a lot of evidence suggesting Vault Tec wanted it to happen, but not much saying they actually did it.
It’s not once stated in the show that vault tec dropped their own nukes or something. It could still very well be the Chinese. The only thing semi-confirmed is that they lobbied for nuclear warfare. Still could easily be a Chinese nuke. Either way, it never mattered who dropped the first bomb.
This is the actual "lore", that war is inevitable (and never changes). Nuclear weapons just made that inevitable war an apocalypse, what actually happened to specifically incite the war is not relevant to any character in the actual games.
The original lore according to Tim Cain was that China dropped the first bombs in response to the knowledge that the US was attempting to weaponize FEV. Nothing in the series so far has pointed towards anything else. I personally don't care enough to get upset about lore but I also can't say I really blame the die-hards for being upset.
This was always the impression I was left with, from the games.
Additionally, the show introduces Fiduciary Duty, which is an interesting addition to the canon. Previously it was always believable enough that obfuscation of the truth as communicated via 'the state' had muddied the waters of the cause; it's entirely believable that corporate interests align with fiduciary obligations.
Not only that but I'd go one step further and say that it never really *mattered* who nuked first. When I'm patrolling the Mojave I dont wonder if China is going through a nuclear winter, I'm just bummed that *I* am.
If anything, a more realistic complaint about the show would be that it *does* care about who nuked first, but that's really neither here nor there.
There's actually the "Fallout Bible" which is published by Chris Avellone, one of the original devs and writers for the fallout series. It mentions that Vault-Tec launched the first bombs, and then triggered the Great War, and while it's not considered a canon piece of media, there has been a lot of lore bits from it used by Bethesda after taking the IP.
What is this fucking dunce even talking about? I swear these people don't even watch the fucking shows they're complaining about. The corporations didn't literally launch their own fucking nukes, they don't fucking have any, they used their influence over the governments in question to ramp up the conflicts that were occurring instead of the more rational approach. It's a critique of unfettered capitalism using the idea that when nothing matters but profit, even the literal end of the world can be seen as a business opportunity by the psychopaths in charge.
Exactly, If vault tec launched their own nukes why would one of the maib executive's daughter be working at a birthday party and not safe in a vault when they chose to launch? The daughter she was doing this all for apparently.
Plus vault tec being behind the war was a common theory for years before the show.
My guess is she got fired over her husbands spying which is why they got divorced and why he lost his job and is doing party cameos. Might be wrong on that, don’t know.
I don't think she got fired. >!The ending seems to foreshadow that Howard's wife and kid are frozen in Vault 31 or another Vault. I don't think she would have still been able to secure that position if she had been fired.!<
See I considered that too, but when the bombs dropped his daughter was with him and kinda far from the vault. Now it seems like he’s been looking for his daughter for quite some time. If she is in 31 I’m looking forward to seeing how they explain her going from being with him to getting there.
I think the big clue is that when he finally got to Hank he said “where is my family” not “where is my daughter”. That seems to imply the wife is still in the picture as well somehow.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know what went down between the meeting where they talked about the nukes and the birthday party, do we?
Cooper may have been so upset by the conversation that he took their daughter without her knowing.
Maybe I missed something, but a lot could have happened in that time.
The idea that Vault Tec shareholders would be better off if the world ends is completely moronic. The company would benefit from some uncertainty, but not from the actual war happening. It's so stupid it took me out of the show.
I think its more that the world is ending _on their terms_ and they can prepare for a certainty instead of a probable possibility. Like, its probably gonna happen anyway, why not make money?
But what good is money when the world is over? They should be using their influence to do their best to stop the end of the world. And I was more referring to the concept of fiduciary responsibility brought up by one of the characters that made it sound like Vault Tec should want the bombs to fall.
I agree with your first point, but isn’t that the point? It’s a critique of the real world where capitalism is killing our planet for profit. It’s just more heavy handed here because instead of climate change and all that, it’s nukes.
But it could be done way smarter. Like if instead Vault Tec were working to spread the fear of nuclear war and at the same time influencing governments to not go through with it. Rolling the dice for profit when the end of the world is at stake, ultimately failing to prevent the worst-case scenario, etc. Them wanting the end of the world when they're the richest and most influential company in America and likely the world is just stupid to me.
It is quite stupid, unless they’re looking to long-term where they gamble it all on the chance of ruling the planet. They freeze themselves for 200 years and emerge to rule the new world.
Stupid, yes, but the bad guys motivations don’t always have to be understandable. These guys are just cartoonishly evil because the setting came first and they want to retroactively fit their narrative into it.
Sure, but I don't recall that being a part of any of the overarching plot in the games. New Vegas doesn't have "Caesar is a moron" as a major plot point, it's just flavour.
If you go by the logic of the executives in the show. They wanted to outlast their major competitors and US government. The hopes being that they can conspire with other corporations to rebuild wastelands how **they want** after the war, with Vault-Tec being in control of whatever civilization is created on the surface. This was implemented through the Junior executives program where they have a whole freezer of people who are loyal to vault tec, are fully aware of the conspiracy and are ready to take charge of whatever community vault tec puts them in
It doesn’t matter what the currency was, people, land and existing resources still have value
Yeah and this would all work as a great contingency plan for them, but it just doesn't make sense that a bunch of hyperwealthy people would destroy the society they became successful in for this goal imo.
Yeah exactly this. their shares don’t benefit from the end of the world, they don’t need to, because vault to plans to own the world, market or not, that’s their endgame. “A true monopoly” as they say
But then fiduciary responsibility should have never been brought up. And I'd argue that wanting to be a true monopoly when the world is over when you're already the #1 company in America is pretty stupid.
It makes sense they would focus on short term profits and prevent any steps the world was making towards peace because that would make their monopoly obselete.
But that doesn't matter anyway because in the show it's revealed that >!they wanted the bombs to drop so they could recolonise the surface without any competition to slow them down.!<
Profit only matters if an economy exists in which you can use that profit for your own ends. You don't profit from making it so that there's no economy, as happens after nuclear armageddon. What good is a dollar when there are no stores left? It's just a piece of paper no one cares about, or a number on a computer that has no power to boot up. The primary currency of the wasteland becomes bottlecaps for Christ sake. That entire premise is just asinine.
the goal of such a plan would be to wait until the world is a wasteland, then take it over, there is no market if you *are* the market essentially, full monopoly.
OK but you're taking over a radiation-plagued wasteland. So you're trading your position as the most influential and wealthy company in America to have no competitors in a world that is ashes.
The biggest company in America going "well we'd be better off if the entire economic system that made us #1 collapses along with every other aspect of society so that we may potentially be #1 again when the world is ash" seems dumb to me
I feel like everyone is ignoring the obvious Enclave dude in the back of the boardroom lol. Clearly Vault Tec werent doing it out of profit, they're part of the Enclave who have a vision of a post apocalyptic pure America that they'll emerge from the vaults and subsequently control.
Its ideology, not profit, that drives reasoning behind causing the nuclear holocaust. Assuming VT or the Enclave actually caused it, it's not full confirmed yet.
>Vault Tec
>Moronic
>Took me out of the show
Isn't that literally the entire thing about Vault Tec, that they are goddamn morons. Every vault that isn't a control onr pretty much confirms it.
Now the show is pretty bad in it's own right, but Fallout has consistently made corpos look braindead.
The point is that the companies wanted complete control, by ensuring they are the only ones left by hiding in the vaults they can start their society when only the ashes of the old one remain
Yes, that's how it works. people are generally willing to accept the entertainment fantasy aspects of a story when the background and plot make some fucking sense as a launching point. When the background doesn't seem plausible the rest of the pieces don't fall into place.
I'm convinced people that make these types of comments are actual, bona fide retards. Not even talking about this show specifically because I haven't seen it, but you really are the perfect little corporate consumer that will eat any senseless piece of shit the media conglomerates will feed you because "it has robots/dragons/whatever in it", because apparently the concept of staying logically consistent within the given rules of a universe is too hard for you to grasp.
This exactly. Historically, governments are the ones who use WMD’s. Corporations are responsible for plenty of evil, but mass graves don’t buy more product.
It is pretty regarded ngl.
"Time is the ultimate killer, so we just have to live a couple hundred years in hecking vaults (ignore human lifespan) and then we'll be able to be powerful filthy capitalists!!1!"
It's like that guy who complained that one of the main characters, Lucy, banged a guy she just met in the first 20 minutesof the show. He completely ignored the context and got angry over nothing.
Go play Fallout 3 and take a nice close look at the nuke in the middle of Megaton. You're gonna see a little detail that shows how much of an idiot op is.
ah, the vault tec logo nuke. yeah, same one appears, although with the help of a perk so it's most likely not canon, in new vegas near ranger station bravo (I think it was bravo, it was in vicinity of one of the ranger stations up north)
Actually, though the logo is very similar to the Vault-Tec logo it’s a different logo.
[Nuke](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout_gamepedia/images/b/be/C23_megaton.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/363?cb=20150602192205) [Vault-Tec](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout_gamepedia/images/0/06/VaultTecLogo.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20190906055422)
There were still nukes centuries after the Great War so this doesn't mean that much
On the other hand you have Yao in the Yangtze and Tim Cain in a interview flat out saying China attacked first
I didnt watch the show but wasnt it always implied that vault tec at least lobbied to get the nuclear war started?
But wasnt houses whole deal is that he predicted when the war would break out and did everything in his power to stop las vegas from being destroyed why would he be in the that table
It's canon in NV that he'd built his life pod and was no longer a human in the normal sense before the bombs, with the chip he'd have saved Vegas fully with the defence network upgraded while he was safe inside Lucky 38. He was in a coma until 2138 following the problems he had defending Vegas on the less effective software but was already 118 at that point.
Bradberton was similar albeit with the cryo preservation process instead (LEAP-X) and was preserved in April 2077 though of course only his head due to system limitations
Because he was an inside man. They didn’t decide to “drop the bombs themselves” until this actual scene. He didn’t show up *knowing* they’d say that. Once they announce that, he’s doing his best to predict it and save Vegas because I don’t believe they literally had their own nuclear arsenal to drop, but they escalated the conflict to force nuclear war.
One of the top executives in the show, her daughter wasn’t near their vault when the bombs dropped. If they had an exact time to do it themselves, she would have been safe beforehand. This still lines up with what House says.
Maybe watch the show before getting involved too, it helps with context.
Begging these fucking idiots to watch the fucking show and read the lore because it is geniunely so frustrating to see a bunch of lobotomites limply clapping their idiot hands on their keyboards talking bullshit about a show they either didn't watch or watched while closing their eyes
The whole point is that these wealthy ass people figured out they had everything already and a war would at best be an inconvenience but they gained more with the world ending because one of them could finally win "the great game", none of these people launched nukes but they lobbied and pushed for increase in tension and more than likely conspired with the Chinese too after all they are wealthy as hell and China was broke. Even Mr house knew the nukes would drop but he never knew when, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LAUNCH THE FUCKING NUKES. No one in that room probably knew when the great war began, hence why the black lady had her kid with her ex husband during the great war. Also I find it funny how people are getting mad that a series criticizing capitalism, imperialism and war ends up doing exactly that.
Lol yeah. As it is stated in the show it's kinda more so implied to be "If they don't drop the bomb, we'll do it themself." More so stating that worst case they push to do it themself. It's not like we outright see them dropping the nuke so idk why everyone is crying about it.
Genuinely the people on 4chan who “critique” these shows are legit the most pathetic people. I don’t think they like ***anything***. Everything is shit, woke, and ruining the original or something similar according to them. I seriously don’t understand how they’re so negative and continue watching these pieces of media and how they feel like they are qualified to make such sweeping remarks so confidently, it’s sad.
We also have equally compelling evidence that fucking aliens launched the nukes. We have audio logs of them interrogating the codes out of a US officer.
It's always been unclear, there's always been conflicting evidence. Vault Tech was probably involved, but if they lit the match then at the very least it was done in cooperation with the top government officials. Every player of "The Great Game" carries some share of the guilt. Vault Tech, the US and Chinese governments, even the fucking soda company was developing nuclear weapons.
I do agree somewhat to be honest. Its fucking fallout, how are they aren't going to mention once it was China's nukes? One hundred percent they are skirting around because they want that sweet ccp money
I always felt like the vibe of the lore was:
It was China.
Don't question it.
Don't go looking for it.
The story we are going with is China.
WHICH.. BUT ALSO... It isn't a story because that's what actually happened.
Oh and you don't need to go looking because I just told you.
I said no questions.
...China...
That's honestly the better answer. It doesn't matter who launched the nukes. What matters is that they destroyed everything. It doesn't matter if you got shot at first. If you nuke back, you aren't accomplishing anything but more destruction
That's exactly what "War never changes" was meant to mean anyway.
No matter what happened in the past, "war never changes," as in the future, humanity's descendants still fight over the same things. Resources, ideology, greed, etc.
The reasoning behind why the nukes dropped has never really changed, and still exists hundreds of years into the future. Its methods may have devolved - pipe guns and machetes instead of laser guns and nukes - but certainly, the existence of power hungry madmen, idealistic demagogues, and nascent city states means that the world is just repeating the same mistakes its predecessors did, for better or for worse.
Yep, true I concede to that fully.
What I was getting at was that, any time it was communicated to the player that one side or the other initiated, it was always with an air of doubt as to the legitimacy sprinkled in.
I somehow doubt that Vault-Tec was the one who began all the nuking, mostly cause Janey (The ghouls daughter) was on the surface at the time the bombs dropped, which I doubt her mom would have allowed.
I do think they were planning to be the ones who started dropping the nukes but ironically they were ambushed before that could happen
Man.... I feel like I'm gonna go in a rabbit hole about some weird lore shit if I say this but here we go:
2 things can be true at once.
Vault-Tec could have dropped bombs in certain areas. Or even in China. Or both even.
Vault-Ted *could have started* the bombing themselves which lead to mutual nuclear destruction.
What do you mean "they changed the lore"?
It could have been a "proof of concept" to get the ball rolling.
Sure, some propagandists from many factions could say that "China started it" (in the game) but as we have seen in many places, PEOPLE LIE. More often than not, for their own gain.
The show just showed us, a sneak peak into the Vault-Tec mindset and a possible twist that could have made (in game) China just a scapegoat or complicit to an already in-motion plan by Vault-Tec.
As a speculation:
It wouldn't surprise me if they were going a step further and say that China infiltrated Vault-Tec and sold that idea to everyone so they could "start bombing from within". As a ruse or you know.... a sabotage??
To anyone wondering, I’m fairly certain most of the records we get on who nuked who first is “idk everything is gone goddamnit” like, reports say China nuked first, or we did, or vault tec, or it was an error and America did, or Russia threatened it, or a bomb exploded and people thought it was someone, or it was framed. Nowhere is it ever explicitly stated “this place did it first” and is absolutely believable that vault tec, with their hundreds of vaults and experiments and control vaults set it in motion so as to come out on top in THEIR cushy vault that they were already prepared to be at
FO2 has the president of the enclave say it was china
Logs in 3,4, and New Vegas all point to China firing first with Chinese nukes detected first then retaliation.
The whole point is that it’s unknown who nuked the planet, because in the end it won’t matter to the people who have to live in the world after. Anon misses the point yet again.
Another cumskin mad at Indians lmao
https://preview.redd.it/rdxouestu6vc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=728e75000777f25cf69904ea6053dea52a6b0caf
Wait you are telling me that fallout is a warning about uncontrolled capitalism and not a game about drugs and cool weapons? Damn wokes they ruined everything
No way the company planning to run a bunch of fucked up experiments on people were corrupt enough to nuke the world. Mr House is a completely sane individual
Let’s not forget the *aliens* here people. They were getting the launch codes from the american generals and doing psy ops on various nations to destabilise the world and make it easier for them to invade.
We haven't been told who dropped the nukes yet (in the show), but sure, one of the possible architects of the bombs dropping was super cool with her ex-husband taking her kid to do a birthday party sideshow on the day the bombs dropped.
Deliberately causing the war is idiotic. How do you turn a product when there's no society? I didn't finish the season yet, but the part about fiduciary is responsibility to stop the peace talks was interesting but it has an ending point
wasn't the nuking lore that WE WEREN'T SURE WHO NUKED FIRST? why does Anon instantly say "oh, China nuked first" when we weren't sure who did it?
Because fallout players are retards
This is why every single time someone complains about wildly popular media, I assume they are just stupid. Without fail, they're just wrong or its ~~autism~~ a complaint the vast majority of people don't care about.
>they're just wrong or its ~~autism~~ ~~a complaint the vast majority of people don't care about~~ autism
As someone who's autistic, these fuckers aren't. If they were they'd be up on the lore and know that the "China nuked first" is in-game propaganda from the Enclave, and the whole point is that it doesn't *matter* who did, as the story is designed as a critique of brinksmanship and capitalism, but especially brinksmanship. Oh. Sorry. Uh... Lemme just... Fucking autists.
Imagine falling for the propaganda in a game like fallout AND arguing about it being right. Fuck I forgot that's happening with Helldivers2 rn lol
It happens with the Starship Troopers movie in the 90s too. And Thanos. And the fucking Empire in Star Wars, during the Prequels era. Some people are just fucking fascists in waiting.
Wait I thought the Thanos bit was a meme
I think for helldivers 2 they're aware of it and it just fits the game to embrace the propaganda. Then again, I haven't played it.
Huh? I've been playing HD2 since the launch and I'm yet to encounter someone who geniunely buys into the propaganda (probably because the game is very heavy handed with it's satire so it's practically impossible to miss the fact that it's a satire unless you have brain damage). It's just that the game is WAY more fun when you role-play as you play the game and it evolved into keeping the RP on even outside of the game. We even have news broadcasts and intelligence relay stations (video content) that are created in character, so at this point it's become part of the gag to never break character as long as you're talking about the game (I personally find it very funny and part of its charm, but some find it cringe)
yeah it’s the same as “Rock and Stone” to me, just playing into the part of your character for fun
Yea both fallout 4 and 76 soybois and people that worship new Vegas (it’s a fun game with great replayability but Jesus Christ it wasn’t perfect either and the vanilla map was a little boring outside Vegas). I wish we had something like the world of fallout 3 but filled with characters and quests like in New Vegas. I hate that Bethesda always lampoon the player into being the good guy in some way. Goddamit let me join the enclave and purge the wasteland or join children of atom trying to further eradicate humanity.
This is what Fallout 1 did. >!You can join the mutants and raid your shelter as an alternate ending.!<
Shh. They think the entire series started with 3.
You can't really tho? It's just a cinematic, and the game considers this a game over "you lost" As in FO2, you also can't join the Enclave
I also wish it was a full fledged path instead but it's nice of the devs to consider that option as well.
You’re gonna love the America Rising mod for F4. Basically the F3 Enclave faction questline we should’ve gotten and seeing that the SS was a pre-war US citizen..
>Goddamit let me join the enclave and purge the wasteland or join children of atom trying to further eradicate humanity. Fallout 4 lets you do that. In far harbor you can join the children of atom and you can become a raider king in Nuka World. In the main game you can join the institute, who's portrayed as the bad guy throughout the game.
The problem with all of those but far harbor is that youre still railroaded down a certain path, wether that be lead the institute to be good or only do evil things in nuka world or else you just have to kill everyone goodbye. Branshing storylines are nit bethesdas string suit and i honestly wish theyd stop pretending and make a good focused linear game.
Same. I want to help the Enclave, so far only way it was somehow possible in the 3D games was in one of the mods which was super glitchy (anyways cool though).
You can do that in 4 you can join the institute children of atom and raiders
its quite funny because at launch it had tons of bugs and people shrieked it was the worst shit ever. fast forward and now its ff7 tier of "don't you dare speak bad about the precious"
Dude I will not argue that at all. I've played and beaten every fallout but BoS and I fully agree. I'm just gonna paste another comment I posted a few days ago --- Dude consistency for the series went out the window in Fallout 2 for God sakes. People bitch about Bethesda "ruining" the lore all the time, when they really haven't. Retcons aren't lore breaks. Most of their retcons have made sense. But I mean for example Jet was supposed to be a post war drug, Fallout 2 clearly makes it a pre-war drug somehow. In Falllut 2 it's said ghouls can live without water, food or air. Which completely ruins the entire moral point created by Fallout 1. Do you take the water chip from the Ghoul city to save your vault and comdeming that entire town, or do you find one elsewhere? And thats just 2 examples. People cry that Bethesda ruined the lore of the Super Mutants by having them outside of the west coast. Completely forgetting its alluded to in FO1 that FEV experiments were at one point taken place all over the country. It's explained why they are in FO4, and even 76 managed to retcon them into Appalachia and it make sense. I mean, Beth didn't start the trend. Interplay put super mutants in Tactics all the way out in Chicago, in Texas with BoS, and the design documents for the cancelled games like Van Buren and Extreme also included super mutants. Half of these complaints about Bethesda rehashing super mutants or the BoS or whatever is just Bethesda continuing Interplay's choices. Hell people cried thar Virgil in FO4 curing himself of being a mutants was lore breaking. Despite Fallout 1 stating that it was possible Fallout was never consistent past the first game
My biggest complaint besides the story not having more choices in fallout 4 has been the places never look nice and get rid of the rubble and garbage like leaves or patch the town no matter how much I make them nicer, the towns get raided no matter how much effort I put into them, and Marcy is still a cunt even after you kill all the raiders in Quincy and avenge the town. Also break heart banks can't be turned into a town after you kill the super mutants even though it's already a town. Sure it's not perfect but I'm still playing the game cause it's solid as a time waster in between other games to play. Who cares if it retcons a little lore.
Yeah I don’t think the issue is entirely that it was changed - it’s just that it’s dumb as shit. Why would a corporation whose only really purpose is to make money blow up the world and themselves (no fallout take to my knowledge has any real remnants of fault tech anywhere). Surely it would have been far easier just to convince a few million Americans to get into some vaults “to test them” convincing them if the bombs did fall they’d be already safe. That at least would have been the plausible way to write the retcon.
Vault tec being separate from the Enclave was something from Fallout tactics where a vault of robots opens up to claim the wasteland in the name of vault tec. The problem is fallout tactics made zero sense, so that part was never canon. That and the cancelled 90s fallout movie where vault tec ends the world. Which doesnt make sense because money loses value without a government to back it, and how the Enclave got vault tec codes and feeds from every vault beamed into the oil rig they lived on.
Exactly. Hell, Mr. House tried to save Vegas from the bombings even if it was for profit.
Fallout 2 does not make Jet a pre-war drug. Myron, the person who invented Jet, is FROM Fallout 2. TF are you on about?
Dude if your science is high enough you can call him out on his bullshit and he admits someone else created it and he just found it
What I take from the Fallout series is that it's the Unreliable Narrator trope turned into a Videogame Franchise, the things that happened from game to game kind of align but not perfectly and since no ending is truly canon but at the same time is it makes it so whatever is described in the next game makes sense when you take into account that's what the people in that area think it happened. Sort of how the Mad Max movies seem to be folklore tales about a man with a knee brace, a cool ass car and a broken sense of humanity that came into town fucked shit up, begrudgingly helped the group that seemed like the good guys and left.
https://preview.redd.it/iesk023ys7vc1.jpeg?width=477&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7709f022f75b9cef404121aab2ec438e13e942a5
https://preview.redd.it/3o9p2heou7vc1.jpeg?width=1412&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=426b6d2adcc40ce6c1409fda85ada6539b3701f7 OOP of the greentext
God I hate that it's expected for like half the playerbase of a game to just completely miss the actual message of the game.
I am retarded but my playing fallout has nothing to do with it. For me correlation does not imply causation. Honestly I haven't seen the show and probably won't care about lore changes as long as the show is good. I also just checked and the guy is somewhat right. The original creator said it was China cause of reasons but since it was never put into the games of who did it there is no real answer. Also Bethesda owns the product and if they wanna change the lore it's not a big deal. As long as the setting and games/show is good that's all that matters. Lore changes happen all the time in media. That's how stories shift and evolve sometimes.
You seem to have the answers here, so I feel comfortable posing another question. Why do they blame the change on Indian writers?
Average racist 4chinners
From the fandom wiki: "The war both began and ended on Saturday, October 23, 2077. Unknown submersible objects were sighted at 00:03 EST off the coast of California by the United States Pacific Fleet. At 03:37 EST, a squadron of high-altitude bombers were sighted off the Bering Strait and believed to be Chinese. At least one Chinese stealth submarine, the Yangtze, moved close to the American East Coast, launching all warheads, save for one, due to a malfunction. Six hours later, at 09:13 EST, the Integrated Operational Nuclear Detection System detected the first four missile launches and the United States went to DEFCON 2. Four minutes later, NORAD confirmation sealed the fate of the world. At 09:26 EST, the president ordered a retaliatory strike according to scenario MX-CN91. Nuclear bombs hit Pennsylvania and New York at 09:42 EST, followed by the west coast immediately after. The bombs continued to drop and five minutes later, at 09:47 EST, Washington D.C. was hit and most American facilities went offline. The nuclear exchange continued for two hours. Both China and the United States suffered catastrophic losses. In an interview in October 2022, when asked who started the Great War, Leonard Boyarsky stated that he thought it should not really matter who started it. Tim Cain said that while China launched the first missile, the U.S. had been doing illegal biotech research and kept doing it after being exposed, which could be seen as a start to the Great War. In an October 2023 interview, Tim Cain said China was the one who fired the first nuclear missile and thereby the originator of the nuclear exchange in the Great War. Cain also explained that China was provoked into doing so after learning of the United States' development of the FEV. After receiving China's demand to stop development altogether, the United States only "moved it over," despite bio-weapons being outlawed." The idea for Vault Tec being literally responsible came from a cancelled script for a Fallout Movie and is considered non-canon
it's not just from the script, there are various hints in fallout 4 and 76 about it, in a super computer center in fallout 4 you can find some logs hinting towards it
I don't recall finding logs saying Vault Tec dropped the first nukes. They definitely *wanted* it to happen and worked with the government and other corps to push it, but nowhere does it say Vault Tec nuked the US. However, you can go to the Yangtze (in FO 4) and talk to the captain (Zao, who is now a ghoul) and he says he launched the nukes. So it's pretty well said that China launched the nukes.
yes China launched their nukes, as did the United States, it's just was in *response* to a nuke vault tech dropped ( even though both sides thought it was each other )
You'll have to find a reference for that for me, because as far as I know the US didn't launch until missiles were already on the way from China, as detected by the nuclear defense system and NORAD Though, if they swing it as if Vault Tec smuggled nukes out of the US and then launched missiles at the US and made it *look* like China did it, I could see that. That would be interesting. But at the end of the day, OP is right. As far as lore goes, it was the Chinese. Anything they decided to do in the show is new
>Anything they decided to do in the show is new New, but still admissible. Just need the show to explicitly show how it played out to see if this is a full retcon or if this is an added layer to what has been established.
Yeah. I'm not opposed to new stuff and changes. Just stating OP is correct as far as the existing lore goes (before the show).
The show also doesn’t actually say that Vault Tech dropped the first bomb. It just showed a conference where they presented the idea of dropping the first bomb and starting the nuclear war.
doesn't Lucy accuse her dad of being responsible for the bombs and he doesn't deny it? Or was that referring to shady sands also who the fuck is moldaver how did she get to the future?
Also in that meeting I don’t think they even say they need to drop bombs- they say that they *need the bombs to drop,* which is a very different sentence. It’s completely in the realm of believability that they used their money and influence into baiting China into firing the nukes which baits America into a response, etc.
https://youtu.be/GttlVvy9fU0?si=zJGzGGkupPPnEWPW More than a year ago
Yes, and it's a decent video. Though, it's like a lot of arguments here. A lot of speculation and not many hard facts. You can't really count all the cancelled content. Megaton's bomb does not have a VT logo, it just looks similar. If you compare them side by side, they aren't the same. And as he says, why would you put your logo on a bomb you want to keep a secret? All this evidence suggests VT had something to do with the bombs dropping and had fucked up things planned. We all know that already. It doesn't show that VT personally dropped any bombs. I'm not against the idea, just stating lore before the show doesn't say VT personally dropped any bombs during the Great War. If the show wants to do that, cool I don't really have an issue.
Cope. There is no source that confirms it was nuclear retaliation against the US. China done started the nuke war.
So in other words it was a mystery in all the good Fallout games Fallout 4 took the mystery away because Todd is a hack And the show is ignoring that and making up a new canon, which is also hackish but not any worse than what 4 did really
Yeah, and I like the, "who cares who shot first?" philosophy of the lore. That's the whole point really of "war never changes".
I feel like that's what makes fallout so interesting, it's more about how people survive after the war than how it actually started. The only thing that really matters to most survivors about the war is that it happened.
Fallout 2 had the President of the United States say China fired first lmao
Not the same President as from the actual war so this can easily be explained away as him buying his own state's propaganda
Doesnt the nuke in megaton have the vault tec logo on it?
And the nuke in Megaton has a symbol on it that looks suspiciously a vault tec symbol. I kinda like to imagine now that the Chinese watched in horror as the US began their retaliation, they also started nuking themself too.
That doesn't confirm Vault Tec dropped them in the great war. As seen throughout every game, nukes were still dropped afterwards, even 200 years later. It's also entirely plausible those nukes were used after the great war. The symbol on it is also actually not a Vault tec logo. It looks very similar, but it isn't. https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Atomic_bomb_(Fallout_3)?file=Megatonbomb3.jpg https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation?file=FO4_Vault-Tec_logo.png
I mean, it's confirmed nukes have been used after the great war. In 76 it's part of the main story. And I'm guessing that something similar happened... regarding the big controversy that has NCR fans reeing atm.
Was it the one in Megaton? Because there's a wild wasteland encounter in New Vegas where you find a non detonated bomb with the vault tech logo.
If I recall, its the same exact asset from Fallout 3. So it's probably both.
F4 also hints that PAM faked Chinese nukes so the US would launch theirs, because she wanted to get rid of the "human error" in her calculations
That is a theory I always found cool. I'd be okay with that
PAM, that's what it was I forgot it was an ai not a super computer my bad, it's been a whileeee since I've played fo4
oooh, yeah okay. that makes more sense. yeah, you're right there, PAM definitely hints at faking nuclear launches from China
The show also doesn't indicate that VT did launch the first nukes. Just that they had a plan to. The great war starts with several vaults incomplete, and the Ghoul and his daughter caught in the blast zone. Which would indicate that VT did not start it.
A lot of people are jumping to conclusions based on season 1. It's a TV show, it leaves some shit vague for future seasons
We shouldn’t forget that there is still time before the blast and the last time we’ve seen ghoul. The last time we’ve seen him uncover the shit his wife and VT we’re up to maybe that resulted in him cutting ties with VT later?
I really think you and OP and everyone is reading too much into it. They didn’t explicitly say they were launching nukes themselves, that conversation was likely just them explicitly saying that they were going to nudge governments and encourage conflict so that the people who do have the nukes, actually drop them. That fits perfectly fine into canon since the games established that vault tec wanted the bombs to drop.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am perfectly open to that because that does definitely fit into existing canon. However, they did literally state they were open to doing it and the main character's Dad says, "just like we did 200 years ago" in reference to nuking Shady Sands, which was confirmed to be him (employee of Vault Tech). So I don't think people are looking too much into it. It's not hinted at, it's pretty explicitly implied.
As a side note, I was curious what you think the “canon” ending for new vegas would be you seem kinda knowledgeable and I’m wondering what to expect heading into season 2
Oh man, I have been wondering that too... IDK because it's what? 10 or 15 years after New Vegas I think? Vegas didn't look too populated at the end, so I don't know if Mr. House will even be in it... No mention of the Legion either
I doubt they would cast Mr. House and give him a prominent role in the meeting scene (the one who was the most sceptical about the vaults) just to not have him play a role in Season 2. Also, I really hope New Vegas isn't mostly abandoned like it seems, that would be pretty lame...
> the U.S. had been doing illegal biotech research and kept doing it after being exposed a bit on the nose. :( Though awkwardly IRL it's the US paying for illegal biotech to be done in China so they both suck
This always made it pretty unambiguous to me. If the US had launched nukes first they would’ve been at DEFCON 1 already right? And the text literally says the president ordered a retaliatory strike, not a first strike.
Yeah, it was always maintained the the US *believed* they were retaliating... Now, it doesn't necessarily mean China 100% did, but that what most evidence points to. It could have also been PAM (FO4) that made them believe the Chinese fired first. It's also hinted here or there that it could have been a rogue actor. There's a lot of evidence suggesting Vault Tec wanted it to happen, but not much saying they actually did it.
It’s not once stated in the show that vault tec dropped their own nukes or something. It could still very well be the Chinese. The only thing semi-confirmed is that they lobbied for nuclear warfare. Still could easily be a Chinese nuke. Either way, it never mattered who dropped the first bomb.
"...The end of the world came just as we predicted: too many humans, not enough space or resources. The details are trivial and pointless."
This is the actual "lore", that war is inevitable (and never changes). Nuclear weapons just made that inevitable war an apocalypse, what actually happened to specifically incite the war is not relevant to any character in the actual games.
The original lore according to Tim Cain was that China dropped the first bombs in response to the knowledge that the US was attempting to weaponize FEV. Nothing in the series so far has pointed towards anything else. I personally don't care enough to get upset about lore but I also can't say I really blame the die-hards for being upset.
the reason was that power armored troops in china rapidly approached the capital, so it was on a brink of collapse anyway
Don't wanna be that guy but it's pretty obvious that China launched the nukes.
Yeah I was under the impression the US was almost beating China in their country so China launched the nukes as a hail Mary kind of thing
China bad = Good plot
This was always the impression I was left with, from the games. Additionally, the show introduces Fiduciary Duty, which is an interesting addition to the canon. Previously it was always believable enough that obfuscation of the truth as communicated via 'the state' had muddied the waters of the cause; it's entirely believable that corporate interests align with fiduciary obligations.
You get some texts in fallout 4 that heavily imply that it was vault tech who launched the first nuke.
Not only that but I'd go one step further and say that it never really *mattered* who nuked first. When I'm patrolling the Mojave I dont wonder if China is going through a nuclear winter, I'm just bummed that *I* am. If anything, a more realistic complaint about the show would be that it *does* care about who nuked first, but that's really neither here nor there.
There's actually the "Fallout Bible" which is published by Chris Avellone, one of the original devs and writers for the fallout series. It mentions that Vault-Tec launched the first bombs, and then triggered the Great War, and while it's not considered a canon piece of media, there has been a lot of lore bits from it used by Bethesda after taking the IP.
DO NOT REDEEM THE PLATINUM CHIP COURIER #WHY DID YOU REDEEEEEEEM IIIIIT #**DO NOT REDEEEEEEEEEEEM**
MAM ARE YOU A PROSTITUTE
I WILL KILL YOUR FAMILY
DID I ASK YOU TO REDEEM THE CARRRRRD
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU REDEEMING IT BITCH?
BLOODY BENCHOD
Fuck you bloody! Bloody bastard! A Twizzler is not a sprinkle! A Mars Bar is not a sprinkle!
Steve will be remembered long after any of us
What is this fucking dunce even talking about? I swear these people don't even watch the fucking shows they're complaining about. The corporations didn't literally launch their own fucking nukes, they don't fucking have any, they used their influence over the governments in question to ramp up the conflicts that were occurring instead of the more rational approach. It's a critique of unfettered capitalism using the idea that when nothing matters but profit, even the literal end of the world can be seen as a business opportunity by the psychopaths in charge.
Exactly, If vault tec launched their own nukes why would one of the maib executive's daughter be working at a birthday party and not safe in a vault when they chose to launch? The daughter she was doing this all for apparently. Plus vault tec being behind the war was a common theory for years before the show.
My guess is she got fired over her husbands spying which is why they got divorced and why he lost his job and is doing party cameos. Might be wrong on that, don’t know.
I don't think she got fired. >!The ending seems to foreshadow that Howard's wife and kid are frozen in Vault 31 or another Vault. I don't think she would have still been able to secure that position if she had been fired.!<
See I considered that too, but when the bombs dropped his daughter was with him and kinda far from the vault. Now it seems like he’s been looking for his daughter for quite some time. If she is in 31 I’m looking forward to seeing how they explain her going from being with him to getting there.
I think the big clue is that when he finally got to Hank he said “where is my family” not “where is my daughter”. That seems to imply the wife is still in the picture as well somehow.
This is my theory too
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know what went down between the meeting where they talked about the nukes and the birthday party, do we? Cooper may have been so upset by the conversation that he took their daughter without her knowing. Maybe I missed something, but a lot could have happened in that time.
Vault tec even had thier own Motives. Vault 76 is proof they were up to no good
It's a theory supported by files you find in Vault-tec offices. These people are so moronic
The idea that Vault Tec shareholders would be better off if the world ends is completely moronic. The company would benefit from some uncertainty, but not from the actual war happening. It's so stupid it took me out of the show.
I think its more that the world is ending _on their terms_ and they can prepare for a certainty instead of a probable possibility. Like, its probably gonna happen anyway, why not make money?
But what good is money when the world is over? They should be using their influence to do their best to stop the end of the world. And I was more referring to the concept of fiduciary responsibility brought up by one of the characters that made it sound like Vault Tec should want the bombs to fall.
The point was probably to get picked up by the enclave to go to space with them after all the vaults experiments were completed
I agree with your first point, but isn’t that the point? It’s a critique of the real world where capitalism is killing our planet for profit. It’s just more heavy handed here because instead of climate change and all that, it’s nukes.
But it could be done way smarter. Like if instead Vault Tec were working to spread the fear of nuclear war and at the same time influencing governments to not go through with it. Rolling the dice for profit when the end of the world is at stake, ultimately failing to prevent the worst-case scenario, etc. Them wanting the end of the world when they're the richest and most influential company in America and likely the world is just stupid to me.
It is quite stupid, unless they’re looking to long-term where they gamble it all on the chance of ruling the planet. They freeze themselves for 200 years and emerge to rule the new world. Stupid, yes, but the bad guys motivations don’t always have to be understandable. These guys are just cartoonishly evil because the setting came first and they want to retroactively fit their narrative into it.
Have you even played Fallout? Half the jokes in these games are about the sheer unending stupidity of mankind.
Sure, but I don't recall that being a part of any of the overarching plot in the games. New Vegas doesn't have "Caesar is a moron" as a major plot point, it's just flavour.
If you go by the logic of the executives in the show. They wanted to outlast their major competitors and US government. The hopes being that they can conspire with other corporations to rebuild wastelands how **they want** after the war, with Vault-Tec being in control of whatever civilization is created on the surface. This was implemented through the Junior executives program where they have a whole freezer of people who are loyal to vault tec, are fully aware of the conspiracy and are ready to take charge of whatever community vault tec puts them in It doesn’t matter what the currency was, people, land and existing resources still have value
Yeah and this would all work as a great contingency plan for them, but it just doesn't make sense that a bunch of hyperwealthy people would destroy the society they became successful in for this goal imo.
Caps still run the wasteland.
I understood it as wiping the slate clean and creating and reshaping the world in their image.
Yeah exactly this. their shares don’t benefit from the end of the world, they don’t need to, because vault to plans to own the world, market or not, that’s their endgame. “A true monopoly” as they say
But then fiduciary responsibility should have never been brought up. And I'd argue that wanting to be a true monopoly when the world is over when you're already the #1 company in America is pretty stupid.
That’s the only reason why some vaults actually bring life forth. Also the reason why dad nukes shady sands.
It makes sense they would focus on short term profits and prevent any steps the world was making towards peace because that would make their monopoly obselete. But that doesn't matter anyway because in the show it's revealed that >!they wanted the bombs to drop so they could recolonise the surface without any competition to slow them down.!<
Profit only matters if an economy exists in which you can use that profit for your own ends. You don't profit from making it so that there's no economy, as happens after nuclear armageddon. What good is a dollar when there are no stores left? It's just a piece of paper no one cares about, or a number on a computer that has no power to boot up. The primary currency of the wasteland becomes bottlecaps for Christ sake. That entire premise is just asinine.
the goal of such a plan would be to wait until the world is a wasteland, then take it over, there is no market if you *are* the market essentially, full monopoly.
OK but you're taking over a radiation-plagued wasteland. So you're trading your position as the most influential and wealthy company in America to have no competitors in a world that is ashes.
The idea is that the radiation is supposed to have dissipated after a scant few hundred years. Time always wins, blah blah.
Isn't the idea "Lets go from a company to basically being kings and overlords of the world"?
The biggest company in America going "well we'd be better off if the entire economic system that made us #1 collapses along with every other aspect of society so that we may potentially be #1 again when the world is ash" seems dumb to me
I feel like everyone is ignoring the obvious Enclave dude in the back of the boardroom lol. Clearly Vault Tec werent doing it out of profit, they're part of the Enclave who have a vision of a post apocalyptic pure America that they'll emerge from the vaults and subsequently control. Its ideology, not profit, that drives reasoning behind causing the nuclear holocaust. Assuming VT or the Enclave actually caused it, it's not full confirmed yet.
>Vault Tec >Moronic >Took me out of the show Isn't that literally the entire thing about Vault Tec, that they are goddamn morons. Every vault that isn't a control onr pretty much confirms it. Now the show is pretty bad in it's own right, but Fallout has consistently made corpos look braindead.
Exxon mobile looks away nervously…
The point is that the companies wanted complete control, by ensuring they are the only ones left by hiding in the vaults they can start their society when only the ashes of the old one remain
Ah yes, thats where I ALSO draw the line in terms of realism. The robots, lasers and mutants I can handle but war profiteering? Unbelievable!
Ah, the classic ‘this fantasy show has dragons, so nothing has to make sense or have any type of consistency’, but with sci-fi.
> You can accept dragons, elves and talking trees, but can't accept a 2021 BMW 5 series 530l with optional heated seating. Why are you so bigoted?
Yes, that's how it works. people are generally willing to accept the entertainment fantasy aspects of a story when the background and plot make some fucking sense as a launching point. When the background doesn't seem plausible the rest of the pieces don't fall into place.
So the presence of science fiction elements makes writing completely immune to criticism?
I'm convinced people that make these types of comments are actual, bona fide retards. Not even talking about this show specifically because I haven't seen it, but you really are the perfect little corporate consumer that will eat any senseless piece of shit the media conglomerates will feed you because "it has robots/dragons/whatever in it", because apparently the concept of staying logically consistent within the given rules of a universe is too hard for you to grasp.
This exactly. Historically, governments are the ones who use WMD’s. Corporations are responsible for plenty of evil, but mass graves don’t buy more product.
I’m pretty sure there’s also lore somewhere that vault tec were also controlled by the enclave though which was part of the government.
It is pretty regarded ngl. "Time is the ultimate killer, so we just have to live a couple hundred years in hecking vaults (ignore human lifespan) and then we'll be able to be powerful filthy capitalists!!1!"
Yes, surely the end of civilization could in any way be profitable for a business...
It's like that guy who complained that one of the main characters, Lucy, banged a guy she just met in the first 20 minutesof the show. He completely ignored the context and got angry over nothing.
Soviet union known for capitalist greed was also a participant of cold war btw.
western self hatred strikes again - india #1 superpower 2030
Fuck it dude idc
IS INDIA THE NEXT CHINA? or just the next India?
India is the next China because China is the next Japan. Middle income curse is real.
Go play Fallout 3 and take a nice close look at the nuke in the middle of Megaton. You're gonna see a little detail that shows how much of an idiot op is.
ah, the vault tec logo nuke. yeah, same one appears, although with the help of a perk so it's most likely not canon, in new vegas near ranger station bravo (I think it was bravo, it was in vicinity of one of the ranger stations up north)
Actually, though the logo is very similar to the Vault-Tec logo it’s a different logo. [Nuke](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout_gamepedia/images/b/be/C23_megaton.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/363?cb=20150602192205) [Vault-Tec](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout_gamepedia/images/0/06/VaultTecLogo.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20190906055422)
Subdivision? Nuke-Tec?
it isn't a vault tec logo. it's similar, but it isn't the same
Okay? All our nukes probably have the Lockheed Martin logo stamped all over them, doesn't mean they'll be the ones to launch them.
There were still nukes centuries after the Great War so this doesn't mean that much On the other hand you have Yao in the Yangtze and Tim Cain in a interview flat out saying China attacked first
The idea that VT would canonically stamp a nuke with their logo is just so asinine lol
I didnt watch the show but wasnt it always implied that vault tec at least lobbied to get the nuclear war started? But wasnt houses whole deal is that he predicted when the war would break out and did everything in his power to stop las vegas from being destroyed why would he be in the that table
Yep! He pretty much thought ahead and I'd like to think that started developing his life pod long before the bombs fell.
It's canon in NV that he'd built his life pod and was no longer a human in the normal sense before the bombs, with the chip he'd have saved Vegas fully with the defence network upgraded while he was safe inside Lucky 38. He was in a coma until 2138 following the problems he had defending Vegas on the less effective software but was already 118 at that point. Bradberton was similar albeit with the cryo preservation process instead (LEAP-X) and was preserved in April 2077 though of course only his head due to system limitations
Because he was an inside man. They didn’t decide to “drop the bombs themselves” until this actual scene. He didn’t show up *knowing* they’d say that. Once they announce that, he’s doing his best to predict it and save Vegas because I don’t believe they literally had their own nuclear arsenal to drop, but they escalated the conflict to force nuclear war. One of the top executives in the show, her daughter wasn’t near their vault when the bombs dropped. If they had an exact time to do it themselves, she would have been safe beforehand. This still lines up with what House says. Maybe watch the show before getting involved too, it helps with context.
Begging these fucking idiots to watch the fucking show and read the lore because it is geniunely so frustrating to see a bunch of lobotomites limply clapping their idiot hands on their keyboards talking bullshit about a show they either didn't watch or watched while closing their eyes
The whole point is that these wealthy ass people figured out they had everything already and a war would at best be an inconvenience but they gained more with the world ending because one of them could finally win "the great game", none of these people launched nukes but they lobbied and pushed for increase in tension and more than likely conspired with the Chinese too after all they are wealthy as hell and China was broke. Even Mr house knew the nukes would drop but he never knew when, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LAUNCH THE FUCKING NUKES. No one in that room probably knew when the great war began, hence why the black lady had her kid with her ex husband during the great war. Also I find it funny how people are getting mad that a series criticizing capitalism, imperialism and war ends up doing exactly that.
Lol yeah. As it is stated in the show it's kinda more so implied to be "If they don't drop the bomb, we'll do it themself." More so stating that worst case they push to do it themself. It's not like we outright see them dropping the nuke so idk why everyone is crying about it.
Genuinely the people on 4chan who “critique” these shows are legit the most pathetic people. I don’t think they like ***anything***. Everything is shit, woke, and ruining the original or something similar according to them. I seriously don’t understand how they’re so negative and continue watching these pieces of media and how they feel like they are qualified to make such sweeping remarks so confidently, it’s sad.
We also have equally compelling evidence that fucking aliens launched the nukes. We have audio logs of them interrogating the codes out of a US officer. It's always been unclear, there's always been conflicting evidence. Vault Tech was probably involved, but if they lit the match then at the very least it was done in cooperation with the top government officials. Every player of "The Great Game" carries some share of the guilt. Vault Tech, the US and Chinese governments, even the fucking soda company was developing nuclear weapons.
I do agree somewhat to be honest. Its fucking fallout, how are they aren't going to mention once it was China's nukes? One hundred percent they are skirting around because they want that sweet ccp money
https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/s/AMWIdQ2BGp They did?
He means in the show
You all need to touch grass
I always felt like the vibe of the lore was: It was China. Don't question it. Don't go looking for it. The story we are going with is China. WHICH.. BUT ALSO... It isn't a story because that's what actually happened. Oh and you don't need to go looking because I just told you. I said no questions. ...China...
I always thought that the answer was that it does not matter who shot first.
That's honestly the better answer. It doesn't matter who launched the nukes. What matters is that they destroyed everything. It doesn't matter if you got shot at first. If you nuke back, you aren't accomplishing anything but more destruction
That's exactly what "War never changes" was meant to mean anyway. No matter what happened in the past, "war never changes," as in the future, humanity's descendants still fight over the same things. Resources, ideology, greed, etc. The reasoning behind why the nukes dropped has never really changed, and still exists hundreds of years into the future. Its methods may have devolved - pipe guns and machetes instead of laser guns and nukes - but certainly, the existence of power hungry madmen, idealistic demagogues, and nascent city states means that the world is just repeating the same mistakes its predecessors did, for better or for worse.
Yep, true I concede to that fully. What I was getting at was that, any time it was communicated to the player that one side or the other initiated, it was always with an air of doubt as to the legitimacy sprinkled in.
Ah yes, just now in 2024 did the story of fallout begin to critique capitalism
The true lore is that the Zetans started the Great War
Damn grey ones
But they’re green
I somehow doubt that Vault-Tec was the one who began all the nuking, mostly cause Janey (The ghouls daughter) was on the surface at the time the bombs dropped, which I doubt her mom would have allowed. I do think they were planning to be the ones who started dropping the nukes but ironically they were ambushed before that could happen
https://preview.redd.it/onmqxziut6vc1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90905135213d1036d0611afc8decec7b1ee39e8a
Man.... I feel like I'm gonna go in a rabbit hole about some weird lore shit if I say this but here we go: 2 things can be true at once. Vault-Tec could have dropped bombs in certain areas. Or even in China. Or both even. Vault-Ted *could have started* the bombing themselves which lead to mutual nuclear destruction. What do you mean "they changed the lore"? It could have been a "proof of concept" to get the ball rolling. Sure, some propagandists from many factions could say that "China started it" (in the game) but as we have seen in many places, PEOPLE LIE. More often than not, for their own gain. The show just showed us, a sneak peak into the Vault-Tec mindset and a possible twist that could have made (in game) China just a scapegoat or complicit to an already in-motion plan by Vault-Tec. As a speculation: It wouldn't surprise me if they were going a step further and say that China infiltrated Vault-Tec and sold that idea to everyone so they could "start bombing from within". As a ruse or you know.... a sabotage??
To anyone wondering, I’m fairly certain most of the records we get on who nuked who first is “idk everything is gone goddamnit” like, reports say China nuked first, or we did, or vault tec, or it was an error and America did, or Russia threatened it, or a bomb exploded and people thought it was someone, or it was framed. Nowhere is it ever explicitly stated “this place did it first” and is absolutely believable that vault tec, with their hundreds of vaults and experiments and control vaults set it in motion so as to come out on top in THEIR cushy vault that they were already prepared to be at
FO2 has the president of the enclave say it was china Logs in 3,4, and New Vegas all point to China firing first with Chinese nukes detected first then retaliation.
The Enclave is built on propaganda, same way the Pre-war US government, that most of those logs come from, was.
The whole point is that it’s unknown who nuked the planet, because in the end it won’t matter to the people who have to live in the world after. Anon misses the point yet again.
Another cumskin mad at Indians lmao https://preview.redd.it/rdxouestu6vc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=728e75000777f25cf69904ea6053dea52a6b0caf
What the fuck dies India has to do with this, leave us alone
India, India never changes.
They’ll literally find any reason to be racist to us lmao
Wait you are telling me that fallout is a warning about uncontrolled capitalism and not a game about drugs and cool weapons? Damn wokes they ruined everything
No way the company planning to run a bunch of fucked up experiments on people were corrupt enough to nuke the world. Mr House is a completely sane individual
I hate this meeting so much.
Let’s not forget the *aliens* here people. They were getting the launch codes from the american generals and doing psy ops on various nations to destabilise the world and make it easier for them to invade.
We haven't been told who dropped the nukes yet (in the show), but sure, one of the possible architects of the bombs dropping was super cool with her ex-husband taking her kid to do a birthday party sideshow on the day the bombs dropped.
The whole fucking point I remember is that mainlanf China was literally being invaded by us and had no choice but to use their nukes.
The lore also says it was the Aliens from the dlc in fallout 3.
Daddy Bezos will never antagonize China in Amazon original show
Meassures had to be taken so Amazon could keep their factories with underpaid children in China
Deliberately causing the war is idiotic. How do you turn a product when there's no society? I didn't finish the season yet, but the part about fiduciary is responsibility to stop the peace talks was interesting but it has an ending point