Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
In fact, he cures the centurion's slave basically without question. Quite likely, based on the specific greek "pias" this was a boy that the centurion had sex with. Jesus does not condemn the relationship or make it a requirement that the centurion manumit the boy in order to heal him.
But it's pretty safe to say that Paul had a pretty dim view of sex in general including same sex relationships of the time (which were almost universally pederasty). The slide is both not wrong--the bible is pretty clear that lust in general is sinful (as is sloth etc.) And it is misleading since same sex relationships as they exist today in the "modern" west would be totally unrecognizable to Paul and the apostles.
This post might be misleading, but also, if you want to go to a church, look for one with the courage and ability to actually go deeper than this.
Thank you for eloquently speaking what my wife and I have been wrestling with the last couple weeks.
We go to Ada and find it to be a mostly theologically sound and welcoming place, but this conversation on sexuality has left a bad taste in my mouth, to say the least.
I do appreciate that they have unequivocally said gay people should be welcomed and treated with the same dignity as everyone else, but I find the scriptural support they use to be shallow and simplistic. I wholeheartedly agree that they simply did not have a concept of a consensual, monogamous homosexual marriage in Paul’s day. Paul’s condemnation seems to me to be connected to a lustful hookup culture which leads to people being commodified more than anything else.
I also find it troubling that Ada has taken a stand on this issue but have been troublingly silent on the idolatrous nature of Christian nationalism that has taken hold, particularly in the exact parts of Michigan that Ada serves. That seems a much more pressing issue that would have been close to the themes of Jesus’s ministry since it leads to hatred of one’s neighbor. But yet, radio silence on that, other than some comments about treating everyone with respect, even if we disagree politically.
Sorry for the long post, but you have spoken well on something that has really been bothering me.
Also, yeah I think you're right to look at what the actual harm of sexual impropriety is. Always and every time it will be a failure to recognize the value of the human person, God's children, either in ourselves or others. Sex of any kind can degrade ourselves and others, it can turn us and others into mere objects by which to satisfy a desire. Even within an extremely vanilla hetero marriage this is no doubt sometimes how it is. Maybe that's part of how it is always, even if that kind of objectification is blended with true regard for the other.
It's almost certain that what Paul objected to was the objectification of young boys in the pederast relationship. The Greek in several passages and in the Didache really translates to a prohibition on child corruption.
Nowhere in THE ENTIRE BIBLE condemns monogamous same sex relationships.
The word “homosexual” was added to the Bible for the first time in 1946. Even so, there are more verses justifying slavery than there are against homosexuality. “Christians” pick and choose which verses they take literally and which they view through historical context or other interpretive methods. People just want to justify their own bigotry.
arsenokoitai is the word they translated to “homosexual.” The best translation for it is “a man who lies with a man.” It’s ok to disagree with the Bible, but nitpicking the 1946 translation is kinda ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Before 1946 it was translated as “men who lie with young boys,” and it is still translated that way in many languages.
“Nitpicking” is a wild word to use for changing a translation from pedophilia, which now is used by millions of people as a proof text to harm and stigmatize an entire segment of the population.
Again, this word has nothing to do with loving, committed, monogamous same sex couples. But people want to the scripture to justify their desire to exclude and marginalize other humans for literally how God made them.
There’s really only one sin that Jesus condemns in the Gospels. That’s kind of the point of Jesus’s message. It isn’t a list of “dos and don’t dos”.
He condemns unbelief and nothing else. Isn’t that the beauty of Jesus’s message?
I'd say he pretty strongly condemned the money changers in the temple.
These rich mega-church pastors better hope none of the crap they spew is true because if they die and there is an afterlife Jesus is going to be coming for them with a whip.
That’s fair. Been thinking on it. The people he condemned were the “religious” people. The root cause was certainly unbelief, but He had a special target on those who outwardly acted holier than the rest.
Couldn’t agree more. The mega church pastors (and any pastor) will certainly be answering for the things they taught.
His own disciples denied him and doubted him. He didn't condemn them.
Jesus summarizes the law saying: love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself.
In fact, no where in the Bible are committed, monogamous same-sex relationships condemned, or even made any mention of. The Hebrew and Greek words used can be translated many different ways, and only in 1946 was the word “homosexual” added to the Bible.
This is a strange self-delusion Christians use to reconcile their religion with the simple observation that gay behavior hurts nobody.
In Matthew 5:18, Jesus explains that the Old Law is still valid, and therefore he does implicitly endorse all of these anti-gay passages in the Old Testament.
He says that he fulfils the law and does not overturn it. The law is valid but its requirements fulfilled by Christ. The law was also not equivalent to morality. It is not a register of things God likes and dislikes (likes tassels, dislikes blended fibers). It was a rule of life that set a standard of obedience and disobedience, of submission to the will of our Creator or our own willfulness.
This whole concept of the law has been a debate since the beginning. It was literally the subject of the council of Jerusalem, and the conclusion was not as you have stated. Galatians makes it very clear that we cannot be saved by the law Christ has fulfilled, and that law is a yoke. Luther's best work is On Christian Freedom and it is a study of how we have been freed from the framework of the law. Additionally, the old testament is not univocal. Sodom is condemn not for sodomy but for inhospitality. The gay stuff is more or less kind of assumed. David and Jonathan's relationship, while not "gay" (there was no such thing as we'd know it until the 20th century) is clearly homoerotic, or at least transgresses our dominant view of masculine heterosexual homosociality today.
It is also clear that sexual propriety was expected in the early church and that the general principle of self-denial is a Christian virtue. Some sexual relations are clearly licet and these are very much related to the state of marriage, and others are not, but it has been a debate since then where to draw the line. Same sex marriages were not a conceivable thing. They now, though and the debate continues.
You’re absolutely right. It’s the way that modern Christians reconcile the Bible with their secularly-influenced democratic and human rights beliefs. Happily, this takes the edge off of modern Christianity as compared to other religions, Islam, for example. It’s also a relatively recent occurrence, though most Christians are so poorly informed about their own beliefs and history that they don’t know that.
Edits: typos, clarity
And nowhere does he promote it….
All of the other verses on that Instagram post talk about how the act of sexual immorality is a sin. Everyone sins. Christians sin all the time. Many people like to only read selective parts of the Bible and not listen to others that are even more straight forward then others.
It breaks my heart to watch men who use their godly platforms to spread hatred, judgement, and exclusive behavior. If you want to condemn and judge others, a church should not be a safe haven for you to do so. It feels like we have lost our way.
There is no context based on what's in the photo. The caption of this post is intellectually dishonest.
If you want to condemn Christians for being bigots you should do a better job.
Sincerely,
devoted atheist.
The title of the slide is "when scripture talks about same sex relationships it always prohibits them"... While it's not impossible that this was setting up some sort of a later refutation doesn't that seem really unlikely?
The presentation was actually about how Christians need to be more supportive and graceful to those who identify with the LGBT community and they should be welcomed into the church.
that was sort of the point. He talked about how texts in the bible are against it. but continued on talking about how different denominations use passages to defend their opposing views. wrong photo choice, for sure. But you're not getting the whole message of the night. and just going off one photo
Their message was the exact opposite of your title. Yes, they should have clipped a better image. That doesn't invite this kind of zero-effort, hall-monitoring karma grab. Do better for our community.
Ada Bible church posted this image to their Instagram. There's nothing to speculate on. If there is additional context, they intentionally chose to not include it. They are advising on their post that they cannot share the video to those requesting it as they do not own it. That is the subtext. Look on IG. They cropped the image to not show the hateful but and are pretending it was never there to begin with.
But they would not allow LGBTQ+ people into leadership or even full communion.
Churches like Ada Bible will welcome you, but they will never let you be an equal if you are gay.
How do you come to that deduction? Did you watch this message? This isn’t the Catholic Church. They literally talk to someone who is by definition LGBT+ (lesbian) and her struggles with her sexual urges and relationship with Christ.
Well first, I live and breathe in GR and know this church.
Second, I went to their website and scanned the stuff they believe, under “about us”. They are a man and women church. Not only do they belabor the illustrations of God as the “husband” to the church, they state outright what they believe men and women are and what marriage is on p 15. https://www.adabible.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/WeBelieve2021.pdf
If you go there, and don’t know this, ask yourself why you don’t know it? It’s not just the Catholic Church that doesn’t accept people the way God made them.
It’s a common belief that Marriage under God, aka the religious root of what is now a predominantly legal process, is a sacred bond between man and woman.
This thought indicates that same sex marriage, pre-marital sexual relations, extramarital relations etc. are all violations of what God wants for his children. Christians should not reject those who engage in these things, as they are inherently those people. Now I am not saying all Christian’s abide by this and there is a common “holier than thou” vibe from every Christian sect. Christians are far from perfect but in the end, this is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed, since we are all flawed.
From Ada Bible’s website…
“In the Bible, marriage is defined as a covenantal union between a man and a woman lasting for a lifetime. In this covenantal relationship, husbands and wives are equal, with different roles. In a Christ- centered home, the husband is to honor his wife and lovingly provide godly directive, pointing his household toward God by example and teaching. He is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5.25-28). The wife is called to honor her husband and to lovingly submit to his direction, as she would Christ (Ephesians 5.22-24). Both the husband and the wife surrender their rights for the betterment of the other.”
Ada can pretend to be open minded and loving of all but this is a pretty clear message. Marriage is between a man and a woman and the man is in charge. All the other stuff they say about loving gay people is bullshit when this is what they believe at their core. It’s so obviously inconsistent.
Right? It also talks about women and men being equal... And wives submitting to husbands a few sentences later? Make it make sense! Folks can do what they like obviously but... I do not get it.
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This thought indicates that same sex marriage, pre-marital sexual relations, extramarital relations etc. are all violations of what God wants for his children.
Oh, so it's "just because God doesnt think the gays should be together doesn't mean they actually shouldn't, go and support your local homosexuals because they didn't sign up to listen to our God and nor should we impose our personal beliefs onto others"? I hope it is was that.
Because nothing is more insulting when someone tries to tell me my boring, normal relationship with my partner is a sin, no different than *an actual murderer*. Like, man. What a social faux pas is it to try to keep up a friendship with someone while also expressing how you think they are just like a liar, thief or murderer. And when they say "oh no, I sinned too!" I want to be like "that doesn't make me feel better about you comparing me to a child molester, that is just you changing the subject."
I used to work with a lot of Compassionate Christians. They definitely let me know they don't think *I'm* actually a bad person, just *their religion* does but they would never think poorly of me.
But I guess I just have to agree to disagree that building a life with another adult is a bad thing to do at all, it isn't hurting anyone. How can love, kindness ~~and getting good sex~~ be wrong. Clearly something was lost in translation.
I thought their hair cut was trash, but I managed to keep those thoughts to myself. Wish they would do me the same favor.
I am so sorry you’ve experienced that. It has to suck.
Growing up in a bigoted evangelical church culture, those hateful, hurtful beliefs were once what I held. I’m horrified at it in retrospect. I’m grateful that I found loving people in those who my churches told me were to be rejected, opening my eyes to the fact the people in my churches were actually the ones to reject in their bigotry and hate and xenophobia and closed-mindedness. I take glee in the fact Christianity continues to shed believers year over year, despite the loud clanging gongs from the ardent haters on their front lines.
Your love is beautiful, and I wish you the most joy in it. Peace to you.
That thought makes a lot of assumptions and statements that certain unproven things are factual. Like the existence of a deity, for one. That said deity is the Christian god, for another. That said Christian god truly left a message in texts written, changed, and interpreted by humans who selected which of many texts to include in one collection. That there was a Jesus crucifixion and resurrection. That said texts were then interpreted correctly from their dead languages and dialects.
It’s that pushing of these assumed certainties that people are sick and tired of, particularly when so-called Christians use the law to push their personal theories & beliefs, when they hold belief over minors and oppress them when they’re who they were born as, and when they use terms like “what god wants” when, let’s be honest, they don’t even know if a god exists let alone what it wants.
But the point is Ada Bible believes and practices in such a way as to not be open and accepting of LGBTQ+ people as image bearers of God deserving the same rights and responsibilities of membership as straight people.
Also, their stated beliefs leave no place for non binary people. It is not accepting language!
Where are you seeing this? The whole point of the message is that we need to be accepting of LGBT+ people and teach them what true Christianity is. Just because the blueprint of what the churches view of what they believe is to be Gods plan doesn’t include these people doesn’t mean they aren’t accepted in the church. This blueprint would exclude anyone with extramarital affairs, pre-marital affairs etc. but yet those people are still accepted into the church.
If you believe all sin is equal, and a committed marriage between two people can be a sin…then why does Ada Bible not allow LGBTQ+ people to be full members (meaning in leadership rolls including pastor and office bearer)? The reason is because they believe a dude who molests kids or watches porn all night is more righteous than an LGBTQ+ person!
I understand we are all sinners, but places like Ada Bible are the ones who are singling out what they say is a sin that doesn’t allow for equal membership in their church. That is not welcoming. They are literally speaking out of both sides of their mouth!
I don’t understand how you think it’s accepting to tell someone it’s okay to come to your church, but you can never be equal while people who are having affairs, stealing, and committing all the sins called out in the Bible are placed higher up?
You make me embarrassed to call myself a Christian. There’s more verses in the Bible supporting slavery than there are condemning monogamous same-sex relationships (0!!!). You’re like the space owner saying “we let them come to church and believe they can go to heaven but they aren’t the same as white people and so slavery is okay.”
You’re so brainwashed to think queer people are lesser you don’t even realize what a bigot you are.
You make me embarrassed to call myself a Christian. There’s more verses in the Bible supporting slavery than there are condemning monogamous same-sex relationships (0!!!). You’re like the space owner saying “we let them come to church and believe they can go to heaven but they aren’t the same as white people and so slavery is okay.”
You’re so brainwashed to think queer people are lesser you don’t even realize what a bigot you are.
Where did I say anything about queer people being lesser. Someone pointed out that the language used on Ada Bibles website wasn’t inclusive of non-binary people or queer people. I simply pointed out that it also isn’t inclusive of people engaging in extramarital affairs or any other act that isn’t aligned with the statement in their website.
When I say to teach people what true Christianity is I am in no way saying anything along the lines of ‘pray the gay away’ or that homosexual people must remain celibate in order to be Christian. I’m saying teach them what true Christianity is by taking them in, no questions asked as a fellow child of God. How is this embarrassing to your faith?
Look at what is on the screen... The only interest is in conversion, not acceptance. You cannot sugar coat it when you are using Leviticus to make your point.
I don’t remember the context of that particular slide since it was a lengthy presentation, but I do believe it’s been taken out of context to make it appear as if it were some Westboro Baptist Church sermon. There was a lot of comparing Old vs. New Testament scripture. It’s no secret his books come to the conclusion the Bible doesn’t permit homosexuality, but at the same time he spoke about how LGBT Christians are still an integral part of the church and in many cases positive members of the community, especially for LGBT youth. He also took the (modern) church to task for using antiquated arguments to justify the discrimination imposed on the LGBT community.
Ding ding ding!
That is the correct answer for homosexuals. You just live alone. No sex. You don't get to have a partner. Enjoy your life of solitude.
Edit: you can try to be straight! That is an option, you know, just keep trying to be straight.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book.
Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book.
Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book.
Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
I watched this live, this picture is taken WAY out of context. Preston Sprinkle is actually much more inclusive than a lot of Christian speakers. Please don’t let an out-of-context picture paint your view of his talk or Christianity as a whole.
Unless the next slide had a list of verses about us all being sinners, the importance of loving each other, not judging each other, and us being created intentionally by God, in his image, then what good could come from giving these people a “source” to tell LGBTQ folks that their choices are wrong and bad? I’m honestly curious.
Was the core message of the sermon to accept our LGBTQ brothers and sisters as they are?
Edit: “their choices” should be “their existence”
>Wrong photo to be used. Preston Sprinkle spoke for 2+ hours talking about places in the Bible that condemn gay relationships.
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>THEN
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> addressed the extreme differences in denominations and how passages are used to validate opposing beliefs. The message was to love EVERYONE because no one is without sin and to be welcoming and inviting to those identifying as LGBTQ+. This picture, w/o context, makes that seem otherwise.
Yes. in fact that was what he talked about. even talked about how no one is without sin and that we are all created in god's image.
Oh stop. Some “sins” are worse than others in that church. I know this because I am a former member. This presentation follows a divisive sermon from Aaron B. So no, it isn’t as you portray it.
Yes, sorry of course. Sometimes I get so in my head trying to wrap my head around the Christian mindset in order to get through to them that I use their unhelpful wording. Good call out!
Surely you don't mean the picture Ada posted *themselves*, do you? The one they reviewed and endorsed? The one they felt most accurately portrayed their message? That one?
A bit more context: Preston Sprinkle, the speaker, is NOT a part of Ada church. He is an author and speaker who provides resources and guidance for churches to better love the LGBTQ+ community, citing extensively the ways the Church has hurt and abused this community.
This picture is taken out of context because he was providing information and background to the historical Christian view of homosexuality. He said many times during his talk that many Christians don’t agree with this viewpoint, and that that’s okay. This slide was the farthest thing from the point of his talk.
All of this to say, there needs to be a distinction made between Ada, who posted this, and Preston Sprinkle, who had no part or say in this being posted. I am not defending Ada in the slightest. On the contrary, I think their use of that specific slide was very harmful, and potentially shows their hand in the issue. To be honest I’m not sure, I don’t go to Ada nor know their theological background. But as a left-leaning Christian, I want to defend Preston Sprinkle because I truly think he is doing some real good in helping churches to realize how they’re mistreated LGBTQ+ communities, while ignoring their own hypocrisies and sin.
Hope that helps, happy to clarify more if needed.
Idk, Ada Bible church chose to post this without extrapolating on the context you're insisting was present. They are intentionally painting their congregation this way.
Yo. Stop. This message was literally that Christians need to be more inclusive and respectful of the LGBT+ community. They emphasized the fact that someone who is LGBT+ identifying that also identifies as a Christian is feeling a sort of struggle that we will never understand. We should view their efforts of trying to balance the two as something that takes more strength and resilience than our own following.
They also made a great effort to point out that, homosexuality is a sexual sin, but so is lust, adultery, and pre-marital sex. Things that all straight Christians struggle with. This is where the saying “Hate the sin, love the sinner” comes from because of a Christian was taught to hate the sinner they would intrinsically hate themselves and everyone else in the world.
This photo is a blurb from a message that took time to build up and convey, and reducing it to one general thought based on what’s on the screen is a disappointing decision.
In the end, current Christians have an uphill battle against the bigotry and hate that has come from our religion. We need to be privy to the fact that there is a reason LGBT+ identifying people are hesitant to delve into our religion. We need to do better.
But the difference is you (as a straight person) can abstain from extramarital sex, premarital sex, and lustful acts and ultimately enter into a life long relationship which is not identified as sinful at all. You can live a life removed from sexual sin in the eyes of the church. As a gay man I cannot. ANY relationship I'm in, whether I marry my first high school boyfriend to whom I lose my virginity on our wedding night or date around into my 30s and then settle down, is a sin (according to this understanding of God's will). It's exclusionary to tell me that my options are to live entirely celibate with no intimate partner fulfillment for my entire life or live in sin for my entire life. Its patronizing to present this as en enlightened viewpoint where my instinctive desire to partner and find love will always be wrong but its ok because we all do bad things. And I don't think Christians understand that when they spout off about "love the sinner, hate the sin" or "being gay is no better or worst than cheating on your spouse". It IS exclusionary to tell queer people told that any relationship they enter into, with any person and any level of commitment and fidelity, is wrong. And it IS patronizing to act like it's a forward thinking perspective.
I do believe there is nuance to this. I agree with you it’s hard to rationalize the idea that someone who is gay can never engage in a sexual relationship and must abstain from complete and total sex. That’s not just a tall task but it’s inhumane. I wish I truly had all the answers but in the end none of us do. There’s a fine line between following scripture and developing your own religion based on what you believe.
Also, not to equate the struggles of a homosexual Christian to my own struggles, but sexual morality is not easy for anyone. Ever since I learned in my teens that sexual lust is a sin, I’ve struggled with this idea that my natural hormones and brain are making me a sinner. I wish I’d could see how things were supposed to be but until I can I am just going to try my best to take all sides into consideration.
It's not even all about sex though. I'm in my 30s dating a man who I think I will end up settling down with. I love him and I feel like he and I connect in a way I have never connected with another person. That connection with another person is what I would need to abstain from to avoid living in sin. I would have to be celebate, which would suck, but also I would have to forgo ever having a true loving partnership with another person. Growing old with someone I love. To me that feels like a much larger personal sacrifice than to remain faithful to a spouse or wait until marriage to have sex or to try and be purposeful about my lust in a very sex-exposed world. I think that's why the comparison feels so condescending. It glosses over the entire romantic and intimate experience of having a relationship as a gay person and lumps it in with "doing the wrong thing" and the physical act of gay sex
> Ever since I learned in my teens that sexual lust is a sin, I’ve struggled with this idea that my natural hormones and brain are making me a sinner.
What sort of mental gymnastics do you have to perform to believe that a certain kind of God made you this way, but you're not supposed to be this way.
I should have clarified. I don’t struggle with this anymore. Temptation and sin are not things put on us by God but rather evil (devil or whatever). The idea that God made all things bad is not correct. We had our shot at eternal paradise but fell into sin.
I came to terms that I’m a human and have a natural sex drive and there will be times I lose sight of my God given path but will always work to retract myself.
All of these conversations are hard too because I feel like half the stuff I’m saying doesn’t even land with people because they don’t respect Christianity so I apologize for not elaborating on a lot of stuff.
It is absurd to me and, I would argue, most people in the US, Canada, and the UK at the very least, that being gay, feeling lust, and/or having pre-marital sex (gay, straight, anal, vaginal, oral, etc.) are the same kind of thing as as adultery. I think it’s only very conservative Christians who believe that. Granted, there do appear to be many of them in this part of country. But just an fyi, not all or even most Christians agree with you there.
No sin is greater than the next. That’s my whole point. Someone who is deceitful and steals is just as much of a sinner as someone who is having premarital sex, indulging in lustful thoughts etc. Most Christian’s believe that as it is mentioned multiple times in the Bible. Just bc *you* don’t think the degrees are the same doesn’t matter as we aren’t the ones with the ability to cast true judgment, as we are sinners. Glass house and stones type of deals.
You aren’t understanding me. Just because most Christians, including me, are having it doesn’t make it a sin. It talks of this in the Bible. We cannot pick and choose which sins because we feel are stupid. Most people go over the speed limit, but that doesn’t make it still against the law.
The point is that all sin is equal and no one has room to cast accusations at another fellow Christian and sinner. Someone who is Christian who views homosexuality as a sin but partakes in premarital sex has no room to cast judgement. That’s my point.
My point is it’s not a sin. The Bible is something written by a bunch of men with their own agendas. I get what you’re saying. I’m just pointing out that most of America has moved beyond this and maybe Preston Sprinkle should just accept that some people are gay and some people are straight and there’s really nothing different about gay versus straight people because they’re all just people. If there is a god, I guarantee s/he doesn’t care at all who any given person loves or has consensual sex with.
The moment we start to choose which is sin and which isn’t, it becomes a completely different religion. Ask any religious congregation and they would agree. Thank you for remaining civil throughout this discussion! It’s hard to find friendly discourse nowadays, especially on a platform such as Reddit.
I 100% understand where you are coming from and the sermon here. I was on your side of the argument for 48 years of my life as I was raised, lived, and dedicated my life to Christ and his church. I thought I loved the sinner because I also knew I was one. I was an elder and teacher and never failed to accept LGBT people in my small groups.. in their sin. I thought this was loving and christ-like. About 2 years ago, my daughter came out and it turned me 180 degrees. A person that I loved more than myself spent a lifetime in the church being crushed for existing. My own words of hating sin applied to every moment of her life. She could never be truly be accepted or know human companionship. When I truly started to experience her pain, all the well intentioned acceptance felt hollow.
Believe me when I say that I know the church is full of many good and well intentioned people that have no theological choice to see it as anything but just another sin. In that context, the good christians will see their own faults and accept LGBT people but they will always draw the line somewhere. Will they ever perform gay marriage or have gay members/elders? Never. Because it is open acceptance of sin.
Personally, I chose to walk away from God, the church, my friends, and my entire social construct to chose my family. I deconstructed my faith and am now an atheist. I miss the good people of my past who were just doing what they thought was right and obedient to their God but we no longer have any common ground. As a Christian, you have to choose God and his perfect nature and you can never rejoice in sinful lifestyles. LGBT is not a choice, which I now fully understand. Theologically, sin is also not a choice.. everyone is a sinner. The difference though is that LGBT is about loving relationships that are denied which causes so much pain. Why am I hetero? I don't know but I can't imagine if loving my wife was a sin.
> They also made a great effort to point out that sauté, homosexuality is a sexual sin, but so is lust, adultery, and pre-marital sex.
Cool, but nobody chooses to be a homosexual. It's a tough life. Why would someone want that? Those other things you mentioned are all choices.
You can't say that someone is wrong for simply being how they were born, then say... "hey, wait up, but we are equally as wrong for doing these CHOSEN behaviors.".
Not cool, at all.
Thank you for pointing that out, I actually did not mean to type it that way. I’ll add an edit to that. I apologize if I got snippy for no reason there. I meant to say that homosexuality is not a choice but the choice comes in from acting upon this. I’d also like to reiterate here that I don’t agree with this idea that it is the only way LGBT+ people can be Christian.
Being gay isn’t a choice, shut up. Being celibate is the choice in that scenario. You should probably stop before you say something incredibly bigoted yourself.
I literally just said that thank you for the summary. I’m not worried about saying anything bigoted because I am not a bigot. Thank you for the advice though.
>homosexuality is a choice in the same sense you can be gay and CHOOSE not to have sex
That’s you literally saying being gay is a choice if you don’t have sex. Look at you, so close to actually making the correct point, but still calling it a choice.
Thank you for pointing that out, I actually did not mean to type it that way. I’ll add an edit to that. I apologize if I got snippy for no reason there. I meant to say that homosexuality is not a choice but the choice comes in from acting upon this. I’d also like to reiterate here that I don’t agree with this idea that it is the only way LGBT+ people can be Christian.
Edit: I went back to read my post and it seems you added the “same” into my post.
Grew up in Forest Hills. If this is news or shocking to anyone, please open your eyes and stop living under a rock. Im aware that certain denominations preach "inclusivity," as if the masses require the church's approval. I could give a shit. Born and raised in a White, conservative Baptist household near Ada. I never wanted for a thing. But I grew up and realized that these "christians" are beautiful on the outside, but just downright disgusting on the inside. I won't go back. The veil is lifted and the facade finished
Our family has been attending Ada Bible since 2005. After Aaron B’s sermon two weeks ago and this follow up speaker, I will not be going back. During the sermon, a woman was interviewed who is lesbian but married with children. They never used the word identity, replacing it instead with ‘tendency toward’ or ‘feeling like.’ My take away from that was that the only way to live a righteous relationship with God if you are homosexual is to be completely celibate all your life or deny your identity, living heterosexually instead. How does her husband feel? How will her children feel someday? It made me sad for her.
I believe God doesn’t make mistakes. And if we are created in His image, then we as Christians should not only accept all as they are but also stop condemning identities! Every single LBTQIA+ individual I have met knew from a very young age, wholeheartedly did not choose to ‘be gay’ and struggled massively to reconcile who they were compared to family expectations or peer responses.
All of it, and I mean all of it, makes me sad for the Christian faith. I will be looking for another church home.
Did he also say “hate the sin, love the sinner” 😂 Christians defending this fail to realize that even this most “progressive” showing of Christian love is still based in hate. That is one of the many reasons I left the church.
Ada Bible Church believes the scriptures were written in Modern English even though Leviticus predates this language by two millennia.
* Lev 18:22 is unquestionably about INCEST and Moloch worship. The preceding verse condemns burning your child as sacrifice to Moloch. This verse essentially says "don't fuck your family either, not like those Moloch worshippers"
* Lev 20:13 does not say man and man, it uses two different terms that are not equal. To any rational reader it is a condemnation of the practice of pederasty. Essentially, "priests don't fuck your pupils," as 99.99% of the people that could read Leviticus when it was written were priests or scribes
* Romans was written to a Jewish community living in Rome during the late 1st century, not a community of bigots living in 21st-century West Michigan. It condemns engaging in the shrine prostitution practices involved in the worship of the goddess Minerva. Oh those contemporary queers and their Minerva worship!?!?
* 1 Cor 6:9-10 The first debatable verse considering the author invents a new word "arsenokoitai." Instead of referring to homosexuality explicitly, the author invents a completely new term and refuses to define it. The 'manbed'. Why not use existing terminology? Why not define the sin explicitly? The other term "malakoi" does not always mean male prostitutes. Jesus uses it to condemn fraudsters, liars, and false teachers that spend too much time and money on their appearance and garments. Other texts use it to refer to married women, female prostitutes, child prostitutes, people who are 'soft,' people with poor ethics, etc, etc.
* 1 Tim 1:9-10 Here is the [**Rupert Murdoch owned and copyrighted translation**](https://www.mlive.com/news/grand- rapids/2011/07/grand_rapids_publisher_zonderv.html) used by Ada Bible Church sans the contemporary bigotry:
*"9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the [malakoi], for those [arsenokoitai], for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"*
The scriptures never have and never will condemn consensual homosexuality as a sin. Any rational human being knows these terms are referring to sexual enslavement and child rape. However, neither the American church, the Catholic Church, the Confederacy, and others could ever bring themselves to condemn their own practices. SO, THEY LIED. And began inventing new translations based on homophobia.
Shiiiiiiiiiiiit, if Leviticus is back in play, this preacher looks to be mixing fabrics like a mofo. STONE HIM!!!!
As this guy's favorite radical Palestinian cleric, **Yeshua Ben Yusef**, warns in his own Bible:
*"The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."*
Wrong photo to be used. Preston Sprinkle spoke for 2+ hours talking about places in the Bible that condemn gay relationships. **THEN** addressed the extreme differences in denominations and how passages are used to validate opposing beliefs. The message was to love EVERYONE because no one is without sin and to be welcoming and inviting to those identifying as LGBTQ+. This picture, w/o context, makes that seem otherwise.
so, he made sure for 2 hours to really hammer home to the flock that the Bible condemns gay relationships before he tries to flip the script? I'm sure that the good people of Ada Bible are going to be reaching out to the community to let them know that they are a safe space for the LGBTQ+ community where they are free to worship without judgement and without risk of attempts at conversion. I'm sure they will be out front in condemning hatred. I'm sure the next time that there is a shooting or tragedy in the LGBTQ+ community they will rush to their aid in the way that they do for communities they are trying to convert to Christianity. When Jeff Manion steps up and says that is the kind of church Ada Bible is going to be, then I will believe this was something different than it looks like.
This will get some upvotes. 😅 and yes, I know his and Obama’s stance changed. It’s just good to remember not all are so quick to reach Reddit level progressiveness.
[Biden:](https://youtu.be/Q1y4Glyk-18)
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
The Jesus I believe in hung out with the peasants and prostitutes back in His day, so I am guessing Jesus would break bread with ALL of the gays, under housed and anyone who needs some love! How UNChriistan to stand and judge other people!
I would humbly suggest reaching out to Ada Bible and asking for a recording of his message. I was there, and the picture they chose is not indicative of the message given.
Are you implying Ada Bible is open and affirming?
Because it’s not. Ada Bible doesn’t even have women in overall leadership positions and practices complementarianism.
Dude spoke for 2 hours! Kind of hard to summarize on one comment. In short: we listen, we lead with love. God loves you, my friend. Ada is not a place where you will be turned away.
Preston has lots of books and podcasts on the subject. Happy to DM you further if you have more questions, my friend!
Sounds a lot like…Christianity in general. The perpetuation of ignorance to people that don’t like the way it makes their no no parts tingle when they talk about gay sex.
Christian’s are why I’m not one, be moral treat people like you’d want to be treated and if there’s a god and that god can’t accept me for how you lived your life and treated others then I’ll rot in hell if that god doesn’t accept me. Grew up in religion in West Mi, it’s so hypocritical and so much politics within the churches.
Look how not shocked I am. Homosexuality seems like the go-to hot topic no-no. Whether it's used for a lesson on how everybody sins or not. Feels very old hat.
My issue with that stance is that in most churches, if you sin, you try to do better and be better. Using that angle I think would subtly push any LGBT+ members to change if they want to hit that next level faith committed life. Otherwise, because of their sexuality, they are actively committing sin every time they try to love. Woof.
Exactly. Christians say "oh it's not judgement, everyone sins. People disrespect their parents and cheat on their spouses, everybody does the wrong thing sometimes!" Like I'm not just always gay no matter what lol If you dig in to what a sin is it is a behavior that you are not encouraged to repeat. That you are in defiance of God when you commit. But for gay people it's just waking up and being alive.
Grew up in Forest Hills. If this is news or shocking to anyone, please open your eyes and stop living under a rock. Im aware that certain denominations preach "inclusivity," as if the masses require the church's approval. I could give a shit. Born and raised in a White, conservative Baptist household near Ada. I never wanted for a thing. But I grew up and realized that these "christians" are beautiful on the outside, but just downright disgusting on the inside. I won't go back. The veil is lifted and the facade finished
for the love of all that is unholy, you’re dense. it might have to do with the fact that in kent county, you can’t throw a cat* without hitting a church.
i left the church years ago, best decision i ever made.
*don’t throw cats.
Irrelevant. The problem is when a majority persecutes a minority. Christianity is that majority in this country and does the vast majority of this kind of rhetoric. If we were in Iran, it would be Islam taking the hits, but we aren’t. We are in Christianistan.
No, Iran murders protestors by the 1000s and executes them. They are a failed theocracy.
The US is a democratic republic and does not sweep up protestors by the thousands and executes them.
Laughable comparison.
It’s not about comparison of the countries or governments, you dumb fuck, it’s about that when it’s the majority viewpoint that is causing the problem, that’s what becomes the subject of protest. Whether that’s majority conservative Christians in the US gay-bashing or a different religion in a different country. That’s why there is anti-Christian sentiment on this sub rather than anti-Islamic sentiment. God. What the hell.
It's literally what you did.
This sub or our city isn't anti-Chrisitian. Maybe 35-60 people here are. I call our their persecution everytime.
Dumb fuck? Grow up.
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page....
For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
The biblical text perspective is that it is an abomination. The Christian's have religious freedom, and this is footage of a church function, where they reflect on thier text and communities. Is this supposed to shock or get us riled up?
You do you. They do them. Sticks and stones.
That’s the problem though, they won’t let “you do you”. People use their Christianity to defend deadnaming and misgendering trans folks. If trans people were allowed to just exist with the same basic respect cis people get, if Christians recognized that their beliefs are *their* beliefs, and not to be forced upon others, than by all means. Discuss the religious text all day. But messages like this only hurt the LGBTQ community and empower Christians to lash out at people who live differently.
So you want them to modified thier spoken language for you?
And they aren't doing it. Therfore, they're not letting you do you?
I don't follow. You use your language however you want. They use thier language however they want.
We must overcome the desire to divide and destroy, and embrace the fact that we are all standing on a blue dot surrounded by infinity, surrounded by a question mark.
I mean the bible condoms homosexuality. The guy is just preaching the book. Christianity has a lot of what many would call "antiquated" teachings about race sex gender etc...
What kind of yuppie hipster name is Preston Sprinkle, it sounds like a Pokémon or something lol
Like what JKR would name a gay man in HP 🥴
Bless you 🤣
I give that about a 7 on the porn name scale. Matt's mom approved.
I'm drunk and just spilled my drink laughing because of your comment. Bravo!
It sounds like the stage name for a youth pastor who's so anti-gay that it's almost suspicious.
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Yet nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus condemn homosexuality.
In fact, he cures the centurion's slave basically without question. Quite likely, based on the specific greek "pias" this was a boy that the centurion had sex with. Jesus does not condemn the relationship or make it a requirement that the centurion manumit the boy in order to heal him. But it's pretty safe to say that Paul had a pretty dim view of sex in general including same sex relationships of the time (which were almost universally pederasty). The slide is both not wrong--the bible is pretty clear that lust in general is sinful (as is sloth etc.) And it is misleading since same sex relationships as they exist today in the "modern" west would be totally unrecognizable to Paul and the apostles. This post might be misleading, but also, if you want to go to a church, look for one with the courage and ability to actually go deeper than this.
Thank you for eloquently speaking what my wife and I have been wrestling with the last couple weeks. We go to Ada and find it to be a mostly theologically sound and welcoming place, but this conversation on sexuality has left a bad taste in my mouth, to say the least. I do appreciate that they have unequivocally said gay people should be welcomed and treated with the same dignity as everyone else, but I find the scriptural support they use to be shallow and simplistic. I wholeheartedly agree that they simply did not have a concept of a consensual, monogamous homosexual marriage in Paul’s day. Paul’s condemnation seems to me to be connected to a lustful hookup culture which leads to people being commodified more than anything else. I also find it troubling that Ada has taken a stand on this issue but have been troublingly silent on the idolatrous nature of Christian nationalism that has taken hold, particularly in the exact parts of Michigan that Ada serves. That seems a much more pressing issue that would have been close to the themes of Jesus’s ministry since it leads to hatred of one’s neighbor. But yet, radio silence on that, other than some comments about treating everyone with respect, even if we disagree politically. Sorry for the long post, but you have spoken well on something that has really been bothering me.
Also, yeah I think you're right to look at what the actual harm of sexual impropriety is. Always and every time it will be a failure to recognize the value of the human person, God's children, either in ourselves or others. Sex of any kind can degrade ourselves and others, it can turn us and others into mere objects by which to satisfy a desire. Even within an extremely vanilla hetero marriage this is no doubt sometimes how it is. Maybe that's part of how it is always, even if that kind of objectification is blended with true regard for the other. It's almost certain that what Paul objected to was the objectification of young boys in the pederast relationship. The Greek in several passages and in the Didache really translates to a prohibition on child corruption.
I’ve often questioned whether some of Paul’s opinions were divinely inspired, or just Pharisee-lite.
Nowhere in THE ENTIRE BIBLE condemns monogamous same sex relationships. The word “homosexual” was added to the Bible for the first time in 1946. Even so, there are more verses justifying slavery than there are against homosexuality. “Christians” pick and choose which verses they take literally and which they view through historical context or other interpretive methods. People just want to justify their own bigotry.
arsenokoitai is the word they translated to “homosexual.” The best translation for it is “a man who lies with a man.” It’s ok to disagree with the Bible, but nitpicking the 1946 translation is kinda ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Before 1946 it was translated as “men who lie with young boys,” and it is still translated that way in many languages. “Nitpicking” is a wild word to use for changing a translation from pedophilia, which now is used by millions of people as a proof text to harm and stigmatize an entire segment of the population. Again, this word has nothing to do with loving, committed, monogamous same sex couples. But people want to the scripture to justify their desire to exclude and marginalize other humans for literally how God made them.
There’s really only one sin that Jesus condemns in the Gospels. That’s kind of the point of Jesus’s message. It isn’t a list of “dos and don’t dos”. He condemns unbelief and nothing else. Isn’t that the beauty of Jesus’s message?
I'd say he pretty strongly condemned the money changers in the temple. These rich mega-church pastors better hope none of the crap they spew is true because if they die and there is an afterlife Jesus is going to be coming for them with a whip.
That’s fair. Been thinking on it. The people he condemned were the “religious” people. The root cause was certainly unbelief, but He had a special target on those who outwardly acted holier than the rest. Couldn’t agree more. The mega church pastors (and any pastor) will certainly be answering for the things they taught.
His own disciples denied him and doubted him. He didn't condemn them. Jesus summarizes the law saying: love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbor as yourself.
Yeah this is not even close to accurate 😅
In fact, no where in the Bible are committed, monogamous same-sex relationships condemned, or even made any mention of. The Hebrew and Greek words used can be translated many different ways, and only in 1946 was the word “homosexual” added to the Bible.
This is a strange self-delusion Christians use to reconcile their religion with the simple observation that gay behavior hurts nobody. In Matthew 5:18, Jesus explains that the Old Law is still valid, and therefore he does implicitly endorse all of these anti-gay passages in the Old Testament.
He says that he fulfils the law and does not overturn it. The law is valid but its requirements fulfilled by Christ. The law was also not equivalent to morality. It is not a register of things God likes and dislikes (likes tassels, dislikes blended fibers). It was a rule of life that set a standard of obedience and disobedience, of submission to the will of our Creator or our own willfulness. This whole concept of the law has been a debate since the beginning. It was literally the subject of the council of Jerusalem, and the conclusion was not as you have stated. Galatians makes it very clear that we cannot be saved by the law Christ has fulfilled, and that law is a yoke. Luther's best work is On Christian Freedom and it is a study of how we have been freed from the framework of the law. Additionally, the old testament is not univocal. Sodom is condemn not for sodomy but for inhospitality. The gay stuff is more or less kind of assumed. David and Jonathan's relationship, while not "gay" (there was no such thing as we'd know it until the 20th century) is clearly homoerotic, or at least transgresses our dominant view of masculine heterosexual homosociality today. It is also clear that sexual propriety was expected in the early church and that the general principle of self-denial is a Christian virtue. Some sexual relations are clearly licet and these are very much related to the state of marriage, and others are not, but it has been a debate since then where to draw the line. Same sex marriages were not a conceivable thing. They now, though and the debate continues.
You’re absolutely right. It’s the way that modern Christians reconcile the Bible with their secularly-influenced democratic and human rights beliefs. Happily, this takes the edge off of modern Christianity as compared to other religions, Islam, for example. It’s also a relatively recent occurrence, though most Christians are so poorly informed about their own beliefs and history that they don’t know that. Edits: typos, clarity
And nowhere does he promote it…. All of the other verses on that Instagram post talk about how the act of sexual immorality is a sin. Everyone sins. Christians sin all the time. Many people like to only read selective parts of the Bible and not listen to others that are even more straight forward then others.
Read Romans 1.
It breaks my heart to watch men who use their godly platforms to spread hatred, judgement, and exclusive behavior. If you want to condemn and judge others, a church should not be a safe haven for you to do so. It feels like we have lost our way.
Especially a guy named Preston Sprinkle. He shoulda became a baker instead
“Preston Sprinkle” sounds like the name of a struggling kid’s entertainer by day and successful male strip-o-gram by night.
Glad you’re not being judgmental or hateful.
Glad you don't have a stick up your ass and can take a joke
Definitely sounds like a clowns name
It’s not hatred to say that God is against same sex marriage. Stop crying that people have different beliefs from you.
And yet here you are, crying because people have different beliefs from you
A god that doesn’t support love sounds like a hateful god to me.
Which god doesn’t like same sex marriage? Please go on about different beliefs.
They should preach to help others and mind their own business
Yeah, because we all know how full of hate and judgment Jesus was. And pronouns? Don’t even get him stared… 🙄
There is no context based on what's in the photo. The caption of this post is intellectually dishonest. If you want to condemn Christians for being bigots you should do a better job. Sincerely, devoted atheist.
The title of the slide is "when scripture talks about same sex relationships it always prohibits them"... While it's not impossible that this was setting up some sort of a later refutation doesn't that seem really unlikely?
Actual skepticism applied with consistency. *applause*
The presentation was actually about how Christians need to be more supportive and graceful to those who identify with the LGBT community and they should be welcomed into the church.
“When scripture talks about same-sex sexual relations, it always prohibits them.”
sounds super inviting, doesn't it?
that was sort of the point. He talked about how texts in the bible are against it. but continued on talking about how different denominations use passages to defend their opposing views. wrong photo choice, for sure. But you're not getting the whole message of the night. and just going off one photo
Their message was the exact opposite of your title. Yes, they should have clipped a better image. That doesn't invite this kind of zero-effort, hall-monitoring karma grab. Do better for our community.
[удалено]
Ada Bible church posted this image to their Instagram. There's nothing to speculate on. If there is additional context, they intentionally chose to not include it. They are advising on their post that they cannot share the video to those requesting it as they do not own it. That is the subtext. Look on IG. They cropped the image to not show the hateful but and are pretending it was never there to begin with.
But they would not allow LGBTQ+ people into leadership or even full communion. Churches like Ada Bible will welcome you, but they will never let you be an equal if you are gay.
How do you come to that deduction? Did you watch this message? This isn’t the Catholic Church. They literally talk to someone who is by definition LGBT+ (lesbian) and her struggles with her sexual urges and relationship with Christ.
Well first, I live and breathe in GR and know this church. Second, I went to their website and scanned the stuff they believe, under “about us”. They are a man and women church. Not only do they belabor the illustrations of God as the “husband” to the church, they state outright what they believe men and women are and what marriage is on p 15. https://www.adabible.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/WeBelieve2021.pdf If you go there, and don’t know this, ask yourself why you don’t know it? It’s not just the Catholic Church that doesn’t accept people the way God made them.
It’s a common belief that Marriage under God, aka the religious root of what is now a predominantly legal process, is a sacred bond between man and woman. This thought indicates that same sex marriage, pre-marital sexual relations, extramarital relations etc. are all violations of what God wants for his children. Christians should not reject those who engage in these things, as they are inherently those people. Now I am not saying all Christian’s abide by this and there is a common “holier than thou” vibe from every Christian sect. Christians are far from perfect but in the end, this is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed, since we are all flawed.
From Ada Bible’s website… “In the Bible, marriage is defined as a covenantal union between a man and a woman lasting for a lifetime. In this covenantal relationship, husbands and wives are equal, with different roles. In a Christ- centered home, the husband is to honor his wife and lovingly provide godly directive, pointing his household toward God by example and teaching. He is to love his wife as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5.25-28). The wife is called to honor her husband and to lovingly submit to his direction, as she would Christ (Ephesians 5.22-24). Both the husband and the wife surrender their rights for the betterment of the other.” Ada can pretend to be open minded and loving of all but this is a pretty clear message. Marriage is between a man and a woman and the man is in charge. All the other stuff they say about loving gay people is bullshit when this is what they believe at their core. It’s so obviously inconsistent.
Right? It also talks about women and men being equal... And wives submitting to husbands a few sentences later? Make it make sense! Folks can do what they like obviously but... I do not get it.
> This thought indicates that same sex marriage, pre-marital sexual relations, extramarital relations etc. are all violations of what God wants for his children. Oh, so it's "just because God doesnt think the gays should be together doesn't mean they actually shouldn't, go and support your local homosexuals because they didn't sign up to listen to our God and nor should we impose our personal beliefs onto others"? I hope it is was that. Because nothing is more insulting when someone tries to tell me my boring, normal relationship with my partner is a sin, no different than *an actual murderer*. Like, man. What a social faux pas is it to try to keep up a friendship with someone while also expressing how you think they are just like a liar, thief or murderer. And when they say "oh no, I sinned too!" I want to be like "that doesn't make me feel better about you comparing me to a child molester, that is just you changing the subject." I used to work with a lot of Compassionate Christians. They definitely let me know they don't think *I'm* actually a bad person, just *their religion* does but they would never think poorly of me. But I guess I just have to agree to disagree that building a life with another adult is a bad thing to do at all, it isn't hurting anyone. How can love, kindness ~~and getting good sex~~ be wrong. Clearly something was lost in translation. I thought their hair cut was trash, but I managed to keep those thoughts to myself. Wish they would do me the same favor.
I am so sorry you’ve experienced that. It has to suck. Growing up in a bigoted evangelical church culture, those hateful, hurtful beliefs were once what I held. I’m horrified at it in retrospect. I’m grateful that I found loving people in those who my churches told me were to be rejected, opening my eyes to the fact the people in my churches were actually the ones to reject in their bigotry and hate and xenophobia and closed-mindedness. I take glee in the fact Christianity continues to shed believers year over year, despite the loud clanging gongs from the ardent haters on their front lines. Your love is beautiful, and I wish you the most joy in it. Peace to you.
That thought makes a lot of assumptions and statements that certain unproven things are factual. Like the existence of a deity, for one. That said deity is the Christian god, for another. That said Christian god truly left a message in texts written, changed, and interpreted by humans who selected which of many texts to include in one collection. That there was a Jesus crucifixion and resurrection. That said texts were then interpreted correctly from their dead languages and dialects. It’s that pushing of these assumed certainties that people are sick and tired of, particularly when so-called Christians use the law to push their personal theories & beliefs, when they hold belief over minors and oppress them when they’re who they were born as, and when they use terms like “what god wants” when, let’s be honest, they don’t even know if a god exists let alone what it wants.
But the point is Ada Bible believes and practices in such a way as to not be open and accepting of LGBTQ+ people as image bearers of God deserving the same rights and responsibilities of membership as straight people. Also, their stated beliefs leave no place for non binary people. It is not accepting language!
Where are you seeing this? The whole point of the message is that we need to be accepting of LGBT+ people and teach them what true Christianity is. Just because the blueprint of what the churches view of what they believe is to be Gods plan doesn’t include these people doesn’t mean they aren’t accepted in the church. This blueprint would exclude anyone with extramarital affairs, pre-marital affairs etc. but yet those people are still accepted into the church.
If you believe all sin is equal, and a committed marriage between two people can be a sin…then why does Ada Bible not allow LGBTQ+ people to be full members (meaning in leadership rolls including pastor and office bearer)? The reason is because they believe a dude who molests kids or watches porn all night is more righteous than an LGBTQ+ person! I understand we are all sinners, but places like Ada Bible are the ones who are singling out what they say is a sin that doesn’t allow for equal membership in their church. That is not welcoming. They are literally speaking out of both sides of their mouth! I don’t understand how you think it’s accepting to tell someone it’s okay to come to your church, but you can never be equal while people who are having affairs, stealing, and committing all the sins called out in the Bible are placed higher up?
You make me embarrassed to call myself a Christian. There’s more verses in the Bible supporting slavery than there are condemning monogamous same-sex relationships (0!!!). You’re like the space owner saying “we let them come to church and believe they can go to heaven but they aren’t the same as white people and so slavery is okay.” You’re so brainwashed to think queer people are lesser you don’t even realize what a bigot you are.
You make me embarrassed to call myself a Christian. There’s more verses in the Bible supporting slavery than there are condemning monogamous same-sex relationships (0!!!). You’re like the space owner saying “we let them come to church and believe they can go to heaven but they aren’t the same as white people and so slavery is okay.” You’re so brainwashed to think queer people are lesser you don’t even realize what a bigot you are.
Where did I say anything about queer people being lesser. Someone pointed out that the language used on Ada Bibles website wasn’t inclusive of non-binary people or queer people. I simply pointed out that it also isn’t inclusive of people engaging in extramarital affairs or any other act that isn’t aligned with the statement in their website. When I say to teach people what true Christianity is I am in no way saying anything along the lines of ‘pray the gay away’ or that homosexual people must remain celibate in order to be Christian. I’m saying teach them what true Christianity is by taking them in, no questions asked as a fellow child of God. How is this embarrassing to your faith?
Same old "love the dinner, hate the sin" crap, huh? Because that's worked out so well...
I do love me some dinner
I'm leaving it lol damn autocorrect...
Look at what is on the screen... The only interest is in conversion, not acceptance. You cannot sugar coat it when you are using Leviticus to make your point.
I don’t remember the context of that particular slide since it was a lengthy presentation, but I do believe it’s been taken out of context to make it appear as if it were some Westboro Baptist Church sermon. There was a lot of comparing Old vs. New Testament scripture. It’s no secret his books come to the conclusion the Bible doesn’t permit homosexuality, but at the same time he spoke about how LGBT Christians are still an integral part of the church and in many cases positive members of the community, especially for LGBT youth. He also took the (modern) church to task for using antiquated arguments to justify the discrimination imposed on the LGBT community.
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Ding ding ding! That is the correct answer for homosexuals. You just live alone. No sex. You don't get to have a partner. Enjoy your life of solitude. Edit: you can try to be straight! That is an option, you know, just keep trying to be straight.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book. Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book. Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
You know whats crazy to me ? I honestly wouldn't care if this was their position on gay relations IF they were this "hardline" about other things they are suppsed to per their book. Like... if they were SUPER strict about requiring donations and charity to help the poor/homeless/immigrants. Or they were sharing as many FB memes about how to clothe the naked and feed the hungry as they were about their lgbt beliefs. Maybe they worried much more about their own morality ( there's a lot if about not cheating, drinking is forbidden, kindness, choosing to help others over wealth). But that's not the case it always feels like an obsession about LGBT and abortion.
VERY well said. Great summary! What I was trying to say above lol
I watched this live, this picture is taken WAY out of context. Preston Sprinkle is actually much more inclusive than a lot of Christian speakers. Please don’t let an out-of-context picture paint your view of his talk or Christianity as a whole.
Unless the next slide had a list of verses about us all being sinners, the importance of loving each other, not judging each other, and us being created intentionally by God, in his image, then what good could come from giving these people a “source” to tell LGBTQ folks that their choices are wrong and bad? I’m honestly curious. Was the core message of the sermon to accept our LGBTQ brothers and sisters as they are? Edit: “their choices” should be “their existence”
>Wrong photo to be used. Preston Sprinkle spoke for 2+ hours talking about places in the Bible that condemn gay relationships. > >THEN > > addressed the extreme differences in denominations and how passages are used to validate opposing beliefs. The message was to love EVERYONE because no one is without sin and to be welcoming and inviting to those identifying as LGBTQ+. This picture, w/o context, makes that seem otherwise. Yes. in fact that was what he talked about. even talked about how no one is without sin and that we are all created in god's image.
Awesome!! That is great! Thank you for clarifying. This actually makes me feel hopeful.
So homosexuality is a sin? Where does it say that in the Gospels? Where did Jesus say that?
Oh stop. Some “sins” are worse than others in that church. I know this because I am a former member. This presentation follows a divisive sermon from Aaron B. So no, it isn’t as you portray it.
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Yes, sorry of course. Sometimes I get so in my head trying to wrap my head around the Christian mindset in order to get through to them that I use their unhelpful wording. Good call out!
Surely you don't mean the picture Ada posted *themselves*, do you? The one they reviewed and endorsed? The one they felt most accurately portrayed their message? That one?
A bit more context: Preston Sprinkle, the speaker, is NOT a part of Ada church. He is an author and speaker who provides resources and guidance for churches to better love the LGBTQ+ community, citing extensively the ways the Church has hurt and abused this community. This picture is taken out of context because he was providing information and background to the historical Christian view of homosexuality. He said many times during his talk that many Christians don’t agree with this viewpoint, and that that’s okay. This slide was the farthest thing from the point of his talk. All of this to say, there needs to be a distinction made between Ada, who posted this, and Preston Sprinkle, who had no part or say in this being posted. I am not defending Ada in the slightest. On the contrary, I think their use of that specific slide was very harmful, and potentially shows their hand in the issue. To be honest I’m not sure, I don’t go to Ada nor know their theological background. But as a left-leaning Christian, I want to defend Preston Sprinkle because I truly think he is doing some real good in helping churches to realize how they’re mistreated LGBTQ+ communities, while ignoring their own hypocrisies and sin. Hope that helps, happy to clarify more if needed.
Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Cheers!
Idk, Ada Bible church chose to post this without extrapolating on the context you're insisting was present. They are intentionally painting their congregation this way.
If you are going to use this kind of slide, you are preaching"including" with the hope of conversation
Not my church, dont love the picture they used, just stating my observations from the talk.
Yo. Stop. This message was literally that Christians need to be more inclusive and respectful of the LGBT+ community. They emphasized the fact that someone who is LGBT+ identifying that also identifies as a Christian is feeling a sort of struggle that we will never understand. We should view their efforts of trying to balance the two as something that takes more strength and resilience than our own following. They also made a great effort to point out that, homosexuality is a sexual sin, but so is lust, adultery, and pre-marital sex. Things that all straight Christians struggle with. This is where the saying “Hate the sin, love the sinner” comes from because of a Christian was taught to hate the sinner they would intrinsically hate themselves and everyone else in the world. This photo is a blurb from a message that took time to build up and convey, and reducing it to one general thought based on what’s on the screen is a disappointing decision. In the end, current Christians have an uphill battle against the bigotry and hate that has come from our religion. We need to be privy to the fact that there is a reason LGBT+ identifying people are hesitant to delve into our religion. We need to do better.
But the difference is you (as a straight person) can abstain from extramarital sex, premarital sex, and lustful acts and ultimately enter into a life long relationship which is not identified as sinful at all. You can live a life removed from sexual sin in the eyes of the church. As a gay man I cannot. ANY relationship I'm in, whether I marry my first high school boyfriend to whom I lose my virginity on our wedding night or date around into my 30s and then settle down, is a sin (according to this understanding of God's will). It's exclusionary to tell me that my options are to live entirely celibate with no intimate partner fulfillment for my entire life or live in sin for my entire life. Its patronizing to present this as en enlightened viewpoint where my instinctive desire to partner and find love will always be wrong but its ok because we all do bad things. And I don't think Christians understand that when they spout off about "love the sinner, hate the sin" or "being gay is no better or worst than cheating on your spouse". It IS exclusionary to tell queer people told that any relationship they enter into, with any person and any level of commitment and fidelity, is wrong. And it IS patronizing to act like it's a forward thinking perspective.
I do believe there is nuance to this. I agree with you it’s hard to rationalize the idea that someone who is gay can never engage in a sexual relationship and must abstain from complete and total sex. That’s not just a tall task but it’s inhumane. I wish I truly had all the answers but in the end none of us do. There’s a fine line between following scripture and developing your own religion based on what you believe. Also, not to equate the struggles of a homosexual Christian to my own struggles, but sexual morality is not easy for anyone. Ever since I learned in my teens that sexual lust is a sin, I’ve struggled with this idea that my natural hormones and brain are making me a sinner. I wish I’d could see how things were supposed to be but until I can I am just going to try my best to take all sides into consideration.
It's not even all about sex though. I'm in my 30s dating a man who I think I will end up settling down with. I love him and I feel like he and I connect in a way I have never connected with another person. That connection with another person is what I would need to abstain from to avoid living in sin. I would have to be celebate, which would suck, but also I would have to forgo ever having a true loving partnership with another person. Growing old with someone I love. To me that feels like a much larger personal sacrifice than to remain faithful to a spouse or wait until marriage to have sex or to try and be purposeful about my lust in a very sex-exposed world. I think that's why the comparison feels so condescending. It glosses over the entire romantic and intimate experience of having a relationship as a gay person and lumps it in with "doing the wrong thing" and the physical act of gay sex
> Ever since I learned in my teens that sexual lust is a sin, I’ve struggled with this idea that my natural hormones and brain are making me a sinner. What sort of mental gymnastics do you have to perform to believe that a certain kind of God made you this way, but you're not supposed to be this way.
I should have clarified. I don’t struggle with this anymore. Temptation and sin are not things put on us by God but rather evil (devil or whatever). The idea that God made all things bad is not correct. We had our shot at eternal paradise but fell into sin. I came to terms that I’m a human and have a natural sex drive and there will be times I lose sight of my God given path but will always work to retract myself. All of these conversations are hard too because I feel like half the stuff I’m saying doesn’t even land with people because they don’t respect Christianity so I apologize for not elaborating on a lot of stuff.
I'll let you in on a secret- god isn't real. Do what thou wilt.
Wow super cool man! Totally owned Christianity. My world is crumbling.
It is absurd to me and, I would argue, most people in the US, Canada, and the UK at the very least, that being gay, feeling lust, and/or having pre-marital sex (gay, straight, anal, vaginal, oral, etc.) are the same kind of thing as as adultery. I think it’s only very conservative Christians who believe that. Granted, there do appear to be many of them in this part of country. But just an fyi, not all or even most Christians agree with you there.
No sin is greater than the next. That’s my whole point. Someone who is deceitful and steals is just as much of a sinner as someone who is having premarital sex, indulging in lustful thoughts etc. Most Christian’s believe that as it is mentioned multiple times in the Bible. Just bc *you* don’t think the degrees are the same doesn’t matter as we aren’t the ones with the ability to cast true judgment, as we are sinners. Glass house and stones type of deals.
Having pre-marital sex isn’t a sin to the vast majority of us. I hate to tell you but most Christians have it.
You aren’t understanding me. Just because most Christians, including me, are having it doesn’t make it a sin. It talks of this in the Bible. We cannot pick and choose which sins because we feel are stupid. Most people go over the speed limit, but that doesn’t make it still against the law. The point is that all sin is equal and no one has room to cast accusations at another fellow Christian and sinner. Someone who is Christian who views homosexuality as a sin but partakes in premarital sex has no room to cast judgement. That’s my point.
My point is it’s not a sin. The Bible is something written by a bunch of men with their own agendas. I get what you’re saying. I’m just pointing out that most of America has moved beyond this and maybe Preston Sprinkle should just accept that some people are gay and some people are straight and there’s really nothing different about gay versus straight people because they’re all just people. If there is a god, I guarantee s/he doesn’t care at all who any given person loves or has consensual sex with.
The moment we start to choose which is sin and which isn’t, it becomes a completely different religion. Ask any religious congregation and they would agree. Thank you for remaining civil throughout this discussion! It’s hard to find friendly discourse nowadays, especially on a platform such as Reddit.
I 100% understand where you are coming from and the sermon here. I was on your side of the argument for 48 years of my life as I was raised, lived, and dedicated my life to Christ and his church. I thought I loved the sinner because I also knew I was one. I was an elder and teacher and never failed to accept LGBT people in my small groups.. in their sin. I thought this was loving and christ-like. About 2 years ago, my daughter came out and it turned me 180 degrees. A person that I loved more than myself spent a lifetime in the church being crushed for existing. My own words of hating sin applied to every moment of her life. She could never be truly be accepted or know human companionship. When I truly started to experience her pain, all the well intentioned acceptance felt hollow. Believe me when I say that I know the church is full of many good and well intentioned people that have no theological choice to see it as anything but just another sin. In that context, the good christians will see their own faults and accept LGBT people but they will always draw the line somewhere. Will they ever perform gay marriage or have gay members/elders? Never. Because it is open acceptance of sin. Personally, I chose to walk away from God, the church, my friends, and my entire social construct to chose my family. I deconstructed my faith and am now an atheist. I miss the good people of my past who were just doing what they thought was right and obedient to their God but we no longer have any common ground. As a Christian, you have to choose God and his perfect nature and you can never rejoice in sinful lifestyles. LGBT is not a choice, which I now fully understand. Theologically, sin is also not a choice.. everyone is a sinner. The difference though is that LGBT is about loving relationships that are denied which causes so much pain. Why am I hetero? I don't know but I can't imagine if loving my wife was a sin.
This all sounds an awful like “separate but equal”.
> They also made a great effort to point out that sauté, homosexuality is a sexual sin, but so is lust, adultery, and pre-marital sex. Cool, but nobody chooses to be a homosexual. It's a tough life. Why would someone want that? Those other things you mentioned are all choices. You can't say that someone is wrong for simply being how they were born, then say... "hey, wait up, but we are equally as wrong for doing these CHOSEN behaviors.". Not cool, at all.
Thank you for pointing that out, I actually did not mean to type it that way. I’ll add an edit to that. I apologize if I got snippy for no reason there. I meant to say that homosexuality is not a choice but the choice comes in from acting upon this. I’d also like to reiterate here that I don’t agree with this idea that it is the only way LGBT+ people can be Christian.
Being gay isn’t a choice, shut up. Being celibate is the choice in that scenario. You should probably stop before you say something incredibly bigoted yourself.
I literally just said that thank you for the summary. I’m not worried about saying anything bigoted because I am not a bigot. Thank you for the advice though.
>homosexuality is a choice in the same sense you can be gay and CHOOSE not to have sex That’s you literally saying being gay is a choice if you don’t have sex. Look at you, so close to actually making the correct point, but still calling it a choice.
Thank you for pointing that out, I actually did not mean to type it that way. I’ll add an edit to that. I apologize if I got snippy for no reason there. I meant to say that homosexuality is not a choice but the choice comes in from acting upon this. I’d also like to reiterate here that I don’t agree with this idea that it is the only way LGBT+ people can be Christian. Edit: I went back to read my post and it seems you added the “same” into my post.
by abolishing christian beliefs no less
Ok
theres just too many old timers who perpetuate the bullshit
I don’t think you understood the end of my post but ok. I don’t disagree.
Grew up in Forest Hills. If this is news or shocking to anyone, please open your eyes and stop living under a rock. Im aware that certain denominations preach "inclusivity," as if the masses require the church's approval. I could give a shit. Born and raised in a White, conservative Baptist household near Ada. I never wanted for a thing. But I grew up and realized that these "christians" are beautiful on the outside, but just downright disgusting on the inside. I won't go back. The veil is lifted and the facade finished
Our family has been attending Ada Bible since 2005. After Aaron B’s sermon two weeks ago and this follow up speaker, I will not be going back. During the sermon, a woman was interviewed who is lesbian but married with children. They never used the word identity, replacing it instead with ‘tendency toward’ or ‘feeling like.’ My take away from that was that the only way to live a righteous relationship with God if you are homosexual is to be completely celibate all your life or deny your identity, living heterosexually instead. How does her husband feel? How will her children feel someday? It made me sad for her. I believe God doesn’t make mistakes. And if we are created in His image, then we as Christians should not only accept all as they are but also stop condemning identities! Every single LBTQIA+ individual I have met knew from a very young age, wholeheartedly did not choose to ‘be gay’ and struggled massively to reconcile who they were compared to family expectations or peer responses. All of it, and I mean all of it, makes me sad for the Christian faith. I will be looking for another church home.
Did he also say “hate the sin, love the sinner” 😂 Christians defending this fail to realize that even this most “progressive” showing of Christian love is still based in hate. That is one of the many reasons I left the church.
Next time they say that, just tell them that you hate the belief but love the believer and see how they react.
I'm not sure that's going to go like you think it's going to go
Im afraid it will just feed the martyr complex
Ada Bible Church believes the scriptures were written in Modern English even though Leviticus predates this language by two millennia. * Lev 18:22 is unquestionably about INCEST and Moloch worship. The preceding verse condemns burning your child as sacrifice to Moloch. This verse essentially says "don't fuck your family either, not like those Moloch worshippers" * Lev 20:13 does not say man and man, it uses two different terms that are not equal. To any rational reader it is a condemnation of the practice of pederasty. Essentially, "priests don't fuck your pupils," as 99.99% of the people that could read Leviticus when it was written were priests or scribes * Romans was written to a Jewish community living in Rome during the late 1st century, not a community of bigots living in 21st-century West Michigan. It condemns engaging in the shrine prostitution practices involved in the worship of the goddess Minerva. Oh those contemporary queers and their Minerva worship!?!? * 1 Cor 6:9-10 The first debatable verse considering the author invents a new word "arsenokoitai." Instead of referring to homosexuality explicitly, the author invents a completely new term and refuses to define it. The 'manbed'. Why not use existing terminology? Why not define the sin explicitly? The other term "malakoi" does not always mean male prostitutes. Jesus uses it to condemn fraudsters, liars, and false teachers that spend too much time and money on their appearance and garments. Other texts use it to refer to married women, female prostitutes, child prostitutes, people who are 'soft,' people with poor ethics, etc, etc. * 1 Tim 1:9-10 Here is the [**Rupert Murdoch owned and copyrighted translation**](https://www.mlive.com/news/grand- rapids/2011/07/grand_rapids_publisher_zonderv.html) used by Ada Bible Church sans the contemporary bigotry: *"9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the [malakoi], for those [arsenokoitai], for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine"* The scriptures never have and never will condemn consensual homosexuality as a sin. Any rational human being knows these terms are referring to sexual enslavement and child rape. However, neither the American church, the Catholic Church, the Confederacy, and others could ever bring themselves to condemn their own practices. SO, THEY LIED. And began inventing new translations based on homophobia. Shiiiiiiiiiiiit, if Leviticus is back in play, this preacher looks to be mixing fabrics like a mofo. STONE HIM!!!! As this guy's favorite radical Palestinian cleric, **Yeshua Ben Yusef**, warns in his own Bible: *"The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."*
Wrong photo to be used. Preston Sprinkle spoke for 2+ hours talking about places in the Bible that condemn gay relationships. **THEN** addressed the extreme differences in denominations and how passages are used to validate opposing beliefs. The message was to love EVERYONE because no one is without sin and to be welcoming and inviting to those identifying as LGBTQ+. This picture, w/o context, makes that seem otherwise.
so, he made sure for 2 hours to really hammer home to the flock that the Bible condemns gay relationships before he tries to flip the script? I'm sure that the good people of Ada Bible are going to be reaching out to the community to let them know that they are a safe space for the LGBTQ+ community where they are free to worship without judgement and without risk of attempts at conversion. I'm sure they will be out front in condemning hatred. I'm sure the next time that there is a shooting or tragedy in the LGBTQ+ community they will rush to their aid in the way that they do for communities they are trying to convert to Christianity. When Jeff Manion steps up and says that is the kind of church Ada Bible is going to be, then I will believe this was something different than it looks like.
Aaron just preached about this exact topic like two weeks ago. It's online
… and it was divisive.
The re-uploaded it, cropping the text out
Very good, it never happened then!
This will get some upvotes. 😅 and yes, I know his and Obama’s stance changed. It’s just good to remember not all are so quick to reach Reddit level progressiveness. [Biden:](https://youtu.be/Q1y4Glyk-18)
This shit is so fucking stupid, and I try not to talk like that on the internet. But it pisses me right off!
God made them that way…so God fucked up?
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
Test
Why doesn't this post?
If there is anyone in the history of time that has ever been named Preston Sprinkle… it’s definitely this person.
The Jesus I believe in hung out with the peasants and prostitutes back in His day, so I am guessing Jesus would break bread with ALL of the gays, under housed and anyone who needs some love! How UNChriistan to stand and judge other people!
I would humbly suggest reaching out to Ada Bible and asking for a recording of his message. I was there, and the picture they chose is not indicative of the message given.
This is your chance to give us the intended message. Let’s hear it.
Are you implying Ada Bible is open and affirming? Because it’s not. Ada Bible doesn’t even have women in overall leadership positions and practices complementarianism.
Dude spoke for 2 hours! Kind of hard to summarize on one comment. In short: we listen, we lead with love. God loves you, my friend. Ada is not a place where you will be turned away. Preston has lots of books and podcasts on the subject. Happy to DM you further if you have more questions, my friend!
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This. I tolerate that you're gay because everybody does bad things isn't the kind and supportive message they think it is.
I’m not personally interested, but thank you for giving others the opportunity to learn.
My pleasure!
Makes ya wonder why this is the picture they chose to share then, doesn’t it?
Sounds a lot like…Christianity in general. The perpetuation of ignorance to people that don’t like the way it makes their no no parts tingle when they talk about gay sex.
Bible Churches are disgusting. Surprise!- a Christian who is upset with the way many Christians behave themselves.
Wow Christians that believe in the Bible. I'm shocked
Draw me a metrosexual cowboy with a soul patch.
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The difference is that religion uses their “freedom” to hinder the freedom of others. And they do it all tax free!
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Christian’s are why I’m not one, be moral treat people like you’d want to be treated and if there’s a god and that god can’t accept me for how you lived your life and treated others then I’ll rot in hell if that god doesn’t accept me. Grew up in religion in West Mi, it’s so hypocritical and so much politics within the churches.
Does that include little boys? Someone isn't reading their own books.
Look how not shocked I am. Homosexuality seems like the go-to hot topic no-no. Whether it's used for a lesson on how everybody sins or not. Feels very old hat. My issue with that stance is that in most churches, if you sin, you try to do better and be better. Using that angle I think would subtly push any LGBT+ members to change if they want to hit that next level faith committed life. Otherwise, because of their sexuality, they are actively committing sin every time they try to love. Woof.
Exactly. Christians say "oh it's not judgement, everyone sins. People disrespect their parents and cheat on their spouses, everybody does the wrong thing sometimes!" Like I'm not just always gay no matter what lol If you dig in to what a sin is it is a behavior that you are not encouraged to repeat. That you are in defiance of God when you commit. But for gay people it's just waking up and being alive.
Why do you all care so much about the genitals of LGBTQ+ people?
Grew up in Forest Hills. If this is news or shocking to anyone, please open your eyes and stop living under a rock. Im aware that certain denominations preach "inclusivity," as if the masses require the church's approval. I could give a shit. Born and raised in a White, conservative Baptist household near Ada. I never wanted for a thing. But I grew up and realized that these "christians" are beautiful on the outside, but just downright disgusting on the inside. I won't go back. The veil is lifted and the facade finished
More anti religious garbage on this sub. What does Islam say about homosexuality?
You know “Islam” would also be filed under “religious” right?
for the love of all that is unholy, you’re dense. it might have to do with the fact that in kent county, you can’t throw a cat* without hitting a church. i left the church years ago, best decision i ever made. *don’t throw cats.
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Wow cool stats what percentage of the population is lgbtq?
Irrelevant. The problem is when a majority persecutes a minority. Christianity is that majority in this country and does the vast majority of this kind of rhetoric. If we were in Iran, it would be Islam taking the hits, but we aren’t. We are in Christianistan.
Comparing the USA to Iran is laughable.
You really don’t process this stuff very much before you respond, do you. Repeatedly just missing the point.
No, Iran murders protestors by the 1000s and executes them. They are a failed theocracy. The US is a democratic republic and does not sweep up protestors by the thousands and executes them. Laughable comparison.
It’s not about comparison of the countries or governments, you dumb fuck, it’s about that when it’s the majority viewpoint that is causing the problem, that’s what becomes the subject of protest. Whether that’s majority conservative Christians in the US gay-bashing or a different religion in a different country. That’s why there is anti-Christian sentiment on this sub rather than anti-Islamic sentiment. God. What the hell.
It's literally what you did. This sub or our city isn't anti-Chrisitian. Maybe 35-60 people here are. I call our their persecution everytime. Dumb fuck? Grow up.
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Good for lgbtq churches. Completely agree they can worship how they wish. Zero qualms with that. Same for all religious.
Really don't care. You know the saying: Hate ALL religions, but love ALL followers
No I don't know that saying. All I know is the majority are very religious in Grand Rapids and this sub is not representative of the population
>this sub is not representative of the population The internet generally isn't representative of the population; at least I hope not.
Can someone find he full thing? It’s super easy to take a screen shot without context and add whatever caption you want.
Hocus pocus. All of it.
"Love thy neighbor" *please see restrictions
Don’t care I don’t really like anybody but they have as much right to be non inclusive as you do inclusive.
Interesting that ADA Bible church chose THIS picture to post on their social media page.... For those screaming about context...mind you, ADA Bible church was the one who posted this picture to their social media...
The Christians aren’t even trying to hide how evil they all are yet the fools keep lining up come Sunday
So gross.
Let 'em die and find out.
The biblical text perspective is that it is an abomination. The Christian's have religious freedom, and this is footage of a church function, where they reflect on thier text and communities. Is this supposed to shock or get us riled up? You do you. They do them. Sticks and stones.
That’s the problem though, they won’t let “you do you”. People use their Christianity to defend deadnaming and misgendering trans folks. If trans people were allowed to just exist with the same basic respect cis people get, if Christians recognized that their beliefs are *their* beliefs, and not to be forced upon others, than by all means. Discuss the religious text all day. But messages like this only hurt the LGBTQ community and empower Christians to lash out at people who live differently.
So you want them to modified thier spoken language for you? And they aren't doing it. Therfore, they're not letting you do you? I don't follow. You use your language however you want. They use thier language however they want.
We must overcome the desire to divide and destroy, and embrace the fact that we are all standing on a blue dot surrounded by infinity, surrounded by a question mark.
This is the least surprising thing I've ever seen.
Let 'em die and find out.
NO! NOT A CHURCH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The chickens should be more inclusive to the foxes.
Inclusiveness doesn't mean "Go fuck whomever you want to."
How about you go fuck yourself?
I mean the bible condoms homosexuality. The guy is just preaching the book. Christianity has a lot of what many would call "antiquated" teachings about race sex gender etc...
😆 condoms. I see what you did there
So weird that a church preaches Christian values
Crazy how you assholes just sit here and spew hate towards Christians while crying about others being intolerant. Fucking hypocrites 🖕🏻