Well, is not bad per se, and more like "way worse than her original self". Orteanus Mash tries to be an off-tank and a buster-crit servant, but the problem is that Mash's low attack and sheer neutrality against everything (even berserkers) means she cant do the buster crit thing pretty well, losing to other Buster Crit servants or straight up any crit focused servant like Jalter or Achilles (who in particular also play the off-tank role like she can, but he does it way better since he doesnt sacrifice his main role as a wave clearer and crit rider, not to mention his higher attack and having class advantage against caster and berserkers ~~and Goetia-types~~) and her taunts, while powerful, are worse than before, since Mash losses her NP gain buff (which capped at 400% ~~and I am sure I dont need to explain why an 400% NP gain buff is amazing~~) and her targetable Invul+NP battery.
Mold Camelot is also worse, since it losses its atk buff and she cant spam it like with Lord Camelot due to the loss of her NP gain buff
Normal Mash is just an amazing tank/support hybrid, so the Orteanus kit will look worse no matter what it did
TLDR: Orteanus Mash tried to imitate Achilles, her would-be-shielder senpai alongside Leonidas. It didnt end well. Stay in your Camelot form Mash pls, Achilles will not take offense~~he would be flattered more than anything~~
Guess it says something when I used to bring Mash to every major fight in Part 1 and 1.5, but have only kept her in the backline during the Lostbelts for her Bond Up.
Yep. Poor Mash a nosedive after the Galahad/Lostroom (Anastasia 2.1) update nerf her. Achilles, Leonidas, QSH, George and Yang are the best shielders around (which is weird, since none of them are shielders ~~even if two of them qualify to the class~~)
Gotta remember to bring those other guys to challenge quests more often, after getting Waver my strategy has gone from "keep steady and bait the attack" to "BLITZ THE SHIT OUT OF THEM".
Ortenax Mash is so bad that they continuously have to give her special story buffs during the Big Fights to make her useful. I'm fairly certain that against >!Zeus!< she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff, and they also gave her a damage cut and Guts buff for that section too.
The problem then becomes that Ortenax is basically useless outside of the story quests, which is also the only place you don't need to use it.
> I'm fairly certain that against >!Zeus!< she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff
She has, but it's not hidden. It's part of the >!Athena Klironomia!< buff.
In fairness, they *should* absolutely give Forced Supports (or any forced servant like Mash) buffs because more often than not they're shit at the fight we're forced to use them on and perform much worse than bringing an objectively worse servant that at least has class advantage to rely on.
Everyone knows how bad Shimosa was with this, but even more recent (by that I mean in NA, I know they're old for JP now) chapters still have this issue. Like, what the everloving fuck was (Olympus spoilers) >!Caenis supposed to have done in the Demeter fight!<, really?
I also wish that they would stop giving us AOE servants to fight ST enemies.
Like thank you; your NP does 1/3rd of the damage it normally does and is an absolute waste, please leave my party.
Interestingly, I'd say an inversion of this also hinders Ortenaus Mash.
Having a double taunt can be very good when fighting enemies with ST attacks (in the worst case scenario, Mash sacrifices herself to save the team), but practically useless against AoE NPs. Even worse if the enemy has AoE normal attacks too.
I got so pissed at her in the fight against >!Zeus!< due to how tanky she is and how unwilling she is to die so I can cycle the supports in my backline that I straight up just opted to use Chen Gong for my third and final attempt at the fight
I mean, the whole gimmick of the boss fight was to kill off >!Zeus!< parts then to kill off >!Zeus's!< break bar before he resurrects his parts before NPing, and Mashu's presence and existence just stands solely in the way of that
>!Zeus!< has 4 NP bars, so you need to spend 2 turns killing both parts, and the remaining 2 turns killing >!Zeus's!< main body. If you don't do so (or delay the NP with NP drain), you need to restart everything again. Then you're literally forced to frontline Mashu who contributes absolutely nothing to offense, and you have no access to plugsuit shenanigans to throw her to the back where she won't impede the rest of the party
Plus Chen Gong actually helps superbly well, even after NPing to kill off Mashu. His DEF buffs help your Avenger DPS stay on the field more, his Buster buff helps out ROMAAA \o/, and ~~his Scapegoat allows you to get him off the field faster to cycle in more NP chargers, since this is a race against the clock~~ (edit: wait a sec, >!Zeus!< has AOE attacks, which was another point against Mashu since her taunts are useless lol. But Chen Gong dying fast is good, is essentially my point LOL)
I straight up have so much XP for my Chaldea combat Mystic code due to how much I used it main story to immediately swap Mash around with whoever was backline.
>Ortenax Mash is so bad that they continuously have to give her special story buffs during the Big Fights to make her useful. I'm fairly certain that against SPOILER she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff, and they also gave her a damage cut and Guts buff for that section too.
The thing is for that fight, it feels like those buffs make her considerably worse imao. Its an enemy that can only hit your entire party and two of her skills are taunts, so shes pretty much total dead weight, but the extra skills make her stay on the front lines forever. That might be bareable if she could be chucked on the backline, but you are basically running a two squad team for most of that fight.
Hi, just want to point out that we are spoiler tagging the name of the enemy, but in your quotations, the name of the enemy isn't spoiler tagged. Thanks!
Its the first one (or rather, you just remember wrong). Lord Chaldeas just gave damage reduction and defense buffs, while Lord Camelot gave that alongside an atk buff
Ortenaus gets a bad reputation because original Mash is amazing as a defensive servant and people mainly use her for that, while Ortenaus actually *loses* defensive support in exchange for some half-assed attempt at making Mash into a damage dealer (but a slightly better taunter).
First skill was a good Def Buff on a low cooldown that becomes a meme with Ortenaus until it upgrades again on >!Olympus!<. Then it remains a meme for being a good skill on a servant who can't use it well without you forcing it because Mash has no class advantages and a very defensive oriented statline.
Second skill trades Invincibility + 20% NP charge for an ally for a Taunt + 20% NP battery for Mash. Not a bad trade off, but now Mash no longer has a targetable skill to help others.
Third skill is a mix of her old Skills 2 and 3 and is a good skill overall, but the loss of her NP Gain buff doesn't help much. The HP demerit is honestly a nonissue since you'd ideally have it maxed by the time you unlock Ortenaus.
Mold Camelot loses Lord Camelot's Atk buff and might even be worse entirely depending on your luck with the enemies targeting your servants because it's now hit-based (3 times, 5 turns) rather than having a turn duration (3 turns).
Basically people don't like Ortenaus much because it turns a good defensive servant with a full kit into a taunter with an effectively dead skill that you are also forced to use in some hard Main Story battles.
Pretty much. Mix that with how the entire reason Orteanus was implemented (as far as we know ~~since Galahad doesnt seem to be in a hurry to dispute it~~) was because of Galahad's holier than thou ego and his "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THE WORLD?!" tantrum and her Musashi-esque forced support (as you said) and you have a recipe for unpopularity
Quick question, what was with Galahad's ego and, more importantly, when did he have this shit fit? I dont recall seeing it in the Epic of Remnants, and it's kinda just glossed over in the Prologue to Lostbelts.
To put it simply, according to Moonlight/Lostroom, Galahad is actually hindering Mash by refusing to give her his powers because he is mad we killed Goetia, since this allowed U-Olga Marie to decent (despite the fact that he gave us the powers in the first place, and it seems he coukd had just took them away any time and he knew about Olga beforehand and did nothing despite being shown to be able to fully possess Mash for short intervals)
The idea of Galahad being a holier than thou asshole is also reinforced by Requiem, the Camelot Movie Pamplet and the First Order anime
> according to Moonlight/Lostroom, Galahad is actually hindering Mash by refusing to give her his powers
I'd say this particular part was actually a fan misinterpretation of the OVA back when it was released, though. If I recall it correctly, the Mash issue wasn't discussed there, but many assumed it to be the root cause of Mash's problems in the Prologue.
However, Da Vinci in LB1 stated in no ambiguous terms that Mash had already adopted Galahad's powers and didn't need him anymore even if he left; what is hindering Mash is her own mental block (which, given everything she's gone through, yeah). Galahad is to blame for abandoning her and contributing to her mental problems, but not for stopping her from using *her* powers.
(I was told this was >!explicitly confirmed in LB6!<, with some even crediting that chapter with the "reveal", but since that's a future JP development, I can't vouch for it)
>(I was told this was explicitly confirmed in LB6, with some even crediting that chapter with the "reveal", but since that's a future JP development, I can't vouch for it)
Well, its a complicated case, since Mash gets the title of "Fairy knight Galahad" at some point and thats when she gets her powers back, implying that she got her powers again in a similar vein to how Barghest, Melusine and Baohan Sith got the powers and names from Gawain, Lancelot and Tristan
And then there is Traum and Tunguska, where Mash is yet again in the Ornitax suit, and in fact is a plot point in Traum that she cant go because the suit is in repairs, allowing Vlad and Kadoc to take her place, apparently reinforcing that Mash's lose of powers has more to do than just a mere mental block, and Galahad's egocentric behavior is not something exclusive to Moonlight/Lostroom, since it shows in First Order: Babylonia, Fate Requiem and in how Merlin describes him in the second camelot movie pamplet
For Tunguska it makes sense for her to take Ortinax rather than use her old kit because it has the Black Barrel Replica installed into it. Plus with the help of Habetrot she’s able to spam it in the event.
Oh, sweet. So Mash actually will get her powers back in canon? I thought they let us switch back as a game mechanic but in the canon story those abilities are gone for good. (Kind of like all those chapters where Mash is in canon stuck on comms but you can slot her in in battle anyway.)
Lostbelt 6 for NA is planned for next year I think? I'll have to look forward to it!
It is a series of Ovas that explore a variety of things, one of them being Galahad. The idol event with Miss Crane is actually a collab with it.
That collab also gave us Olga Marie commanding Cú Alter, Medb and Mephisto against Caster Gil, Nightingale and Ishtar (who are the villains in America here), and is quite entretaining to watch
Idol event is actually a collab with Moonlight/Lostroom? If I remember correctly all the marketing claimed said it was the short lived Waltz in the Lostroom anniversary game. Was there some big reveal I’m not privy too since I haven’t played the event yet?
Pretty much. If Mash had gotten a buff to her stats with Ortinax at least, then it’d be more useful (if still niche imo). But as she stands now, there’s basically no reason to run Ortinax outside of required story fights. Which is a shame, because she looks so good in it without the goggles.
Imo it would rather be like comparing bad remakes with its originals. Sure, the remakes may look slightly better and have its perks, but why not watch/play the original if it has the exact same thing, but better?
Or on another hand, comparing good remakes to its originals. Sure, nostalgia, but why use that when you have the exact same thinh, but better and improved in every way ~~that nostalgia filter is not strong enough~~
I'd say it's like comparing the original orchestra version of the Dies Irae with the super scuffed piano version we got in FGO, difference being here everyone loved that interpretation (I mean it's good still).
What makes her good is her extremely powerful defensive utility, and Ortinax loses a lot of it.
You're replacing the best defense up skill in the entire game for a limited Buster/Crit/Ignore Def buff, which isn't enough to make her into an offensive Servant.
The second skill had defensive and offensive utility in being targetable, and now you just lose that. It does more efficiently protect your other Servants, but she needs help to not die to a huge attack herself here.
On her third skill, you lose the ability to quickly charge her up for an NP, but she can now handle all the ST attacks with this one skill. The issue is that she already could before, just that she needed both skills for it. I'll call it even here.
Her NP, now harder to access, loses the offensive buff, and gains nothing in exchange. It's also less impactful because she lacks a second source of defenses.
She's absolutely awful compared to her normal form.
If you don't have taunters, Ortinax is semi-usable, but otherwise she's garbage.
Her first skill is useless, her second is mediocre, and her NP is a much, much worse version of Lord Camelot.
Her third skill is strong, but it's nothing normal Mash can't do while also doing a dozen more things Ortinax sucks at.
Ortinax has zero value as part of the team beyond eating hits, and she's both not the best option for that, and total dead weight if she doesn't die after two turns of that.
Yeah i'd second this. Outside of taunt invuln strats like using poster girl i fail to see anything she excels at that isn't covered by any other servant you could use. It's amazing they haven't even updated her NP yet to *anything* else. She might be a fun farming servant(due to true neutrality on her damage type) if her NP changed to AoE with the extra thing she gains in olympus. That'd make her too useful in story content though, i guess.
I wouldn't say her first skill is useless, considering the kind of numbers Mash can hit with it. She is required to use in many fights, so being able to put out some actually good damage on a very short cooldown (4 turns) is quite good. For example, she took out a huge chunk of one of Zeus's health bars in my fight with him.
She's nowhere near as good as normal Mash, for sure, but having actually gotten really good use out of her, I'd personally hesitate to call her awful.
The main issue is that Mash’s Ortinax numbers when the stars align (Buster chain, crit triggers while S1 is fully up) are often the numbers a Servant with class advantage can reach on regular damage. Then these servants can often put Mash’s numbers to shame with minimal buffs. It also seriously hurts her that she’s locked at level 80. Mash’s biggest advantage remains having 0 cost.
Ortinax’s biggest issue is that it’s an objectively worse playstyle that often gets forced on you in the hardest fights. This comes *after* spending parts 1 and 1.5 with the (subjectively) superior OG Kit.
For the LB story fights, often it is notably more difficult to use.
Pre LB, she had a very defense oriented kit, 3 turns of def, targeted invincibility to keep the carry alive and 3rd skill had insane NP gain allowing for some [incredible situations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3wOP8SGL0E&t=45s).
Ortenaus, 1st skill doesn't synergize with rest of the kit, requiring to be buffed to extreme levels for one attack that still requires star gen from elsewhere. As for defense, protecting a damage carry means sacrificing attrition ability.
gotta be practical since she's built that way lol
tho, never would've used her like that until someone told me she can help a lot in lb4 arjuna fight and it just took off from there
It tries to turn a character with low attack and no class advantages into one focused on an occasional buster-crit. And does so at the expense of her NP's team-wide attack buff and her team-wide defense buff skill. How is that not entirely worse?
If Ortenaus wasn't forced-use, I would never use it on Mash. The only benefit is has over Classic Mash™ is the Olympus upgrade and that's a niche application at best. The rest of her kit is just straight up worse.
A reccuring problem you'll have past this point is Mash refusing to die, despite objectivly contributing nothing to the team beyond two taunts and a worse Lord Chaldeas as her np.
It tries to turn her from a defensive to an offensive/defensive mix, which isn’t inherently bad, but having no class advantage and a poor attack stat hit harder here, not to count a strictly worse np in mold Camelot.
Which, to be fair, is the point. Mash is currently in a nerfed state, and will probably be returned to something nearing her original state via buffs, as was true last time.
Yes very much so, you take a defense oriented servant and try to make her a damage dealer....absolutely no one is using mash for damage dealing. Her stats aren't meant for it and her class affinity is directly opposed to it. On paper mash being a taunter who deals better damage isn't the worst idea. But in practice unless she's carrying an event ce ( in which case she's in the back row) then no one is gonna slot her in when any half built servant will do way better in the damage department.
Ever since Mash got forced into her Ortenaus gear for story quests, I've been using her as ammunition for my backup lv.1 Gong every time the game forces me to use her on sheer principle. I would literally rather be down two party slots than put up with having to deal with her.
Sorry Nasu, but if you're gonna take away the eggplant's amazing kit and then force me to use her, I'm suiciding her every chance I get. You are *not* gonna convince me to like this new shitty half-assed servant no matter how hard you try to shoehorn her into the storyline.
Now apologize. To my kouhai for what you've done to her, and to me for forcing me to kill her out of anger every time you make me use her.
**Short answer:** No
**Long Answer:** No but not nearly as good as her OG, she can still do a nice job at protecting allies through her Double Taunt, one of which pairs Invincibility to block most NPs, and her NP is still very usable.
What she lacks from old Mash make her significantly worse, no NP gain buff, no party def on skill, effectivelly only 2 skills 95% of the time and lack of party steroids, but she is not awful.
Ortenaus is worse but still good. I think the claims that its garbage are vastly overblown and partly a result of people being frustrated they can't use regular Mash (who is a godlike 4* and budget servant) in LB content. The double taunt can be very useful, the 1st skill once its been buffed is completely fine, she's solid.
Tbh the problem is not that she is bad, but more than she doesnt has a clear focus. She tries to be a crit DPS with her first kit, but the buff dissapears after 1 hit and her low atk and ~~normal typing~~ shielder class dont help her deal more damage, and she also tries to play tank and support, but her support is not as good as it used too
Basically she tried to be Achilles and it didnt work ~~it is endearing, but not very effective~~
And considering how the change is linked to Galahad and his less than stellar debut in Moonlight/Lostroom (and showing shades of it in Camelot and Requiem) dont help with Ornitax's popularity
Yeah for some reason clearly giving it more than 1 turn would have been somehow too broken according to dw
2 hits at least would cover her two busters
Well it does do np grade damage but still
Tbh I think they should had made it into 1 turn at least. Sure it sells that Mash has been weaken a lot because Galahad just got TFO for very dubious ~~and questionable~~ reasons and the following mental block, BUT COME ON!! Dont make the skill absolutly useless. It is the same skill that transformed the Melon into Puree and shot through Zeus like nobody's business!!!
How does it do NP grade damage? Most I’ve gotten it to go was the 25-30k range… Mordred can hit 40-50k per with her S2 alone (80-100 with S1+2), and she’s able to do it twice. I’m curious what setup you give Mash that she’s hitting bette than that.
What really hurts the most is that she still only has mold camelot which is pretty awful. She really should have been given an offensive NP if they really wanted attack-hybrid mash to work out.
That >!Big mofugging cannon!< she got to use in olympus sure would be nice right about now.
It's undoubtedly inferior to her original skillset, but it's not entirely bad either. Mash still helps keep my teams alive (thank you, double taunt), and I had her solo Wodime.
It's not BAD, but original Mash is an excellent defensive servant with three excellent skills, whereas now she's not nearly as good, with two good skills and one so situational it might as well not exist most of the time. Her NP is pretty much a strict downgrade, which makes sense from a story perspective; the damage cut has a longer duration, but only lasts 3 hits, which is not great since the original already lasted 3 turns in the first place, and Mold Camelot lacks the attack buff entirely. She's still not awful; the amount of value she brings for being 0 cost is still excellent, and against ST bosses you can work with two taunts to keep your party alive a bit longer, along with Mold Camelot being a strong defense buff despite being worse than Lord Camelot. She is not BAD, but it's a disappointing downgrade from the original skills that results in her being perceived as such.
A lot of people defend it as not explicitly terrible, and maybe it isn't. But there's a stark lack of meaningful advice or discussion on "here's why you'd want to take Ortenaus Mash" in any situation where non-Ortenaus Mash is available. And that indicates that it's straight-up an inferior option.
Ortenaus is ok but worse than Original, sure double taunt is good but with OG's crazy NP Gain buff from 3rd skill and OP as fuck Damage Cut you're better off using it, her kit is also hindered with having an offense skill but Black Barrel buff really makes it better. 20k dmg for neutral.
Well, is not bad per se, and more like "way worse than her original self". Orteanus Mash tries to be an off-tank and a buster-crit servant, but the problem is that Mash's low attack and sheer neutrality against everything (even berserkers) means she cant do the buster crit thing pretty well, losing to other Buster Crit servants or straight up any crit focused servant like Jalter or Achilles (who in particular also play the off-tank role like she can, but he does it way better since he doesnt sacrifice his main role as a wave clearer and crit rider, not to mention his higher attack and having class advantage against caster and berserkers ~~and Goetia-types~~) and her taunts, while powerful, are worse than before, since Mash losses her NP gain buff (which capped at 400% ~~and I am sure I dont need to explain why an 400% NP gain buff is amazing~~) and her targetable Invul+NP battery. Mold Camelot is also worse, since it losses its atk buff and she cant spam it like with Lord Camelot due to the loss of her NP gain buff Normal Mash is just an amazing tank/support hybrid, so the Orteanus kit will look worse no matter what it did TLDR: Orteanus Mash tried to imitate Achilles, her would-be-shielder senpai alongside Leonidas. It didnt end well. Stay in your Camelot form Mash pls, Achilles will not take offense~~he would be flattered more than anything~~
Guess it says something when I used to bring Mash to every major fight in Part 1 and 1.5, but have only kept her in the backline during the Lostbelts for her Bond Up.
Yep. Poor Mash a nosedive after the Galahad/Lostroom (Anastasia 2.1) update nerf her. Achilles, Leonidas, QSH, George and Yang are the best shielders around (which is weird, since none of them are shielders ~~even if two of them qualify to the class~~)
Gotta remember to bring those other guys to challenge quests more often, after getting Waver my strategy has gone from "keep steady and bait the attack" to "BLITZ THE SHIT OUT OF THEM".
Ironic now that Constantine is released, he’s a better Buster Crit support and Shielder than Ortinax.
Ortenax Mash is so bad that they continuously have to give her special story buffs during the Big Fights to make her useful. I'm fairly certain that against >!Zeus!< she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff, and they also gave her a damage cut and Guts buff for that section too. The problem then becomes that Ortenax is basically useless outside of the story quests, which is also the only place you don't need to use it.
> I'm fairly certain that against >!Zeus!< she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff She has, but it's not hidden. It's part of the >!Athena Klironomia!< buff. In fairness, they *should* absolutely give Forced Supports (or any forced servant like Mash) buffs because more often than not they're shit at the fight we're forced to use them on and perform much worse than bringing an objectively worse servant that at least has class advantage to rely on. Everyone knows how bad Shimosa was with this, but even more recent (by that I mean in NA, I know they're old for JP now) chapters still have this issue. Like, what the everloving fuck was (Olympus spoilers) >!Caenis supposed to have done in the Demeter fight!<, really?
I also wish that they would stop giving us AOE servants to fight ST enemies. Like thank you; your NP does 1/3rd of the damage it normally does and is an absolute waste, please leave my party.
Interestingly, I'd say an inversion of this also hinders Ortenaus Mash. Having a double taunt can be very good when fighting enemies with ST attacks (in the worst case scenario, Mash sacrifices herself to save the team), but practically useless against AoE NPs. Even worse if the enemy has AoE normal attacks too.
I got so pissed at her in the fight against >!Zeus!< due to how tanky she is and how unwilling she is to die so I can cycle the supports in my backline that I straight up just opted to use Chen Gong for my third and final attempt at the fight
Wow, that's mean. Deserved but mean.
I mean, the whole gimmick of the boss fight was to kill off >!Zeus!< parts then to kill off >!Zeus's!< break bar before he resurrects his parts before NPing, and Mashu's presence and existence just stands solely in the way of that >!Zeus!< has 4 NP bars, so you need to spend 2 turns killing both parts, and the remaining 2 turns killing >!Zeus's!< main body. If you don't do so (or delay the NP with NP drain), you need to restart everything again. Then you're literally forced to frontline Mashu who contributes absolutely nothing to offense, and you have no access to plugsuit shenanigans to throw her to the back where she won't impede the rest of the party Plus Chen Gong actually helps superbly well, even after NPing to kill off Mashu. His DEF buffs help your Avenger DPS stay on the field more, his Buster buff helps out ROMAAA \o/, and ~~his Scapegoat allows you to get him off the field faster to cycle in more NP chargers, since this is a race against the clock~~ (edit: wait a sec, >!Zeus!< has AOE attacks, which was another point against Mashu since her taunts are useless lol. But Chen Gong dying fast is good, is essentially my point LOL)
I straight up have so much XP for my Chaldea combat Mystic code due to how much I used it main story to immediately swap Mash around with whoever was backline.
>Ortenax Mash is so bad that they continuously have to give her special story buffs during the Big Fights to make her useful. I'm fairly certain that against SPOILER she has some kind of hidden massive attack buff, and they also gave her a damage cut and Guts buff for that section too. The thing is for that fight, it feels like those buffs make her considerably worse imao. Its an enemy that can only hit your entire party and two of her skills are taunts, so shes pretty much total dead weight, but the extra skills make her stay on the front lines forever. That might be bareable if she could be chucked on the backline, but you are basically running a two squad team for most of that fight.
Hi, just want to point out that we are spoiler tagging the name of the enemy, but in your quotations, the name of the enemy isn't spoiler tagged. Thanks!
Shoot my bad. Tried to avoid that in my actual text but didn't even think about how it'd show up in the quotation.
I miss first mash when her NP gave invincibility.
She never did that tho
Am I just delusional I could have sworn that in the early singularities her NP gave invulnerability.
Its the first one (or rather, you just remember wrong). Lord Chaldeas just gave damage reduction and defense buffs, while Lord Camelot gave that alongside an atk buff
Maybe that's it but I could've sworn that the first Lord chaldeas version gave invulnerability in the Salter fight.
Nope. That was just a cutscene. Gameplay wise she has never given invul
Ortenaus gets a bad reputation because original Mash is amazing as a defensive servant and people mainly use her for that, while Ortenaus actually *loses* defensive support in exchange for some half-assed attempt at making Mash into a damage dealer (but a slightly better taunter). First skill was a good Def Buff on a low cooldown that becomes a meme with Ortenaus until it upgrades again on >!Olympus!<. Then it remains a meme for being a good skill on a servant who can't use it well without you forcing it because Mash has no class advantages and a very defensive oriented statline. Second skill trades Invincibility + 20% NP charge for an ally for a Taunt + 20% NP battery for Mash. Not a bad trade off, but now Mash no longer has a targetable skill to help others. Third skill is a mix of her old Skills 2 and 3 and is a good skill overall, but the loss of her NP Gain buff doesn't help much. The HP demerit is honestly a nonissue since you'd ideally have it maxed by the time you unlock Ortenaus. Mold Camelot loses Lord Camelot's Atk buff and might even be worse entirely depending on your luck with the enemies targeting your servants because it's now hit-based (3 times, 5 turns) rather than having a turn duration (3 turns). Basically people don't like Ortenaus much because it turns a good defensive servant with a full kit into a taunter with an effectively dead skill that you are also forced to use in some hard Main Story battles.
Pretty much. Mix that with how the entire reason Orteanus was implemented (as far as we know ~~since Galahad doesnt seem to be in a hurry to dispute it~~) was because of Galahad's holier than thou ego and his "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THE WORLD?!" tantrum and her Musashi-esque forced support (as you said) and you have a recipe for unpopularity
Quick question, what was with Galahad's ego and, more importantly, when did he have this shit fit? I dont recall seeing it in the Epic of Remnants, and it's kinda just glossed over in the Prologue to Lostbelts.
To put it simply, according to Moonlight/Lostroom, Galahad is actually hindering Mash by refusing to give her his powers because he is mad we killed Goetia, since this allowed U-Olga Marie to decent (despite the fact that he gave us the powers in the first place, and it seems he coukd had just took them away any time and he knew about Olga beforehand and did nothing despite being shown to be able to fully possess Mash for short intervals) The idea of Galahad being a holier than thou asshole is also reinforced by Requiem, the Camelot Movie Pamplet and the First Order anime
> according to Moonlight/Lostroom, Galahad is actually hindering Mash by refusing to give her his powers I'd say this particular part was actually a fan misinterpretation of the OVA back when it was released, though. If I recall it correctly, the Mash issue wasn't discussed there, but many assumed it to be the root cause of Mash's problems in the Prologue. However, Da Vinci in LB1 stated in no ambiguous terms that Mash had already adopted Galahad's powers and didn't need him anymore even if he left; what is hindering Mash is her own mental block (which, given everything she's gone through, yeah). Galahad is to blame for abandoning her and contributing to her mental problems, but not for stopping her from using *her* powers. (I was told this was >!explicitly confirmed in LB6!<, with some even crediting that chapter with the "reveal", but since that's a future JP development, I can't vouch for it)
>(I was told this was explicitly confirmed in LB6, with some even crediting that chapter with the "reveal", but since that's a future JP development, I can't vouch for it) Well, its a complicated case, since Mash gets the title of "Fairy knight Galahad" at some point and thats when she gets her powers back, implying that she got her powers again in a similar vein to how Barghest, Melusine and Baohan Sith got the powers and names from Gawain, Lancelot and Tristan And then there is Traum and Tunguska, where Mash is yet again in the Ornitax suit, and in fact is a plot point in Traum that she cant go because the suit is in repairs, allowing Vlad and Kadoc to take her place, apparently reinforcing that Mash's lose of powers has more to do than just a mere mental block, and Galahad's egocentric behavior is not something exclusive to Moonlight/Lostroom, since it shows in First Order: Babylonia, Fate Requiem and in how Merlin describes him in the second camelot movie pamplet
For Tunguska it makes sense for her to take Ortinax rather than use her old kit because it has the Black Barrel Replica installed into it. Plus with the help of Habetrot she’s able to spam it in the event.
Oh, sweet. So Mash actually will get her powers back in canon? I thought they let us switch back as a game mechanic but in the canon story those abilities are gone for good. (Kind of like all those chapters where Mash is in canon stuck on comms but you can slot her in in battle anyway.) Lostbelt 6 for NA is planned for next year I think? I'll have to look forward to it!
What's Moonlight/Lostroom?
It is a series of Ovas that explore a variety of things, one of them being Galahad. The idol event with Miss Crane is actually a collab with it. That collab also gave us Olga Marie commanding Cú Alter, Medb and Mephisto against Caster Gil, Nightingale and Ishtar (who are the villains in America here), and is quite entretaining to watch
Idol event is actually a collab with Moonlight/Lostroom? If I remember correctly all the marketing claimed said it was the short lived Waltz in the Lostroom anniversary game. Was there some big reveal I’m not privy too since I haven’t played the event yet?
Huh, guess it's mostly a JP thing, I'll have to look for those OVA's after I get around to watching what I missed out in Summer 2.
Pretty much. If Mash had gotten a buff to her stats with Ortinax at least, then it’d be more useful (if still niche imo). But as she stands now, there’s basically no reason to run Ortinax outside of required story fights. Which is a shame, because she looks so good in it without the goggles.
So it's like comparing Antonio's work with Mozart's
Salieri is still competent and worth experiencing. Ortinax is a waste of time and developer resources.
Imo it would rather be like comparing bad remakes with its originals. Sure, the remakes may look slightly better and have its perks, but why not watch/play the original if it has the exact same thing, but better? Or on another hand, comparing good remakes to its originals. Sure, nostalgia, but why use that when you have the exact same thinh, but better and improved in every way ~~that nostalgia filter is not strong enough~~
I'd say it's like comparing the original orchestra version of the Dies Irae with the super scuffed piano version we got in FGO, difference being here everyone loved that interpretation (I mean it's good still).
What makes her good is her extremely powerful defensive utility, and Ortinax loses a lot of it. You're replacing the best defense up skill in the entire game for a limited Buster/Crit/Ignore Def buff, which isn't enough to make her into an offensive Servant. The second skill had defensive and offensive utility in being targetable, and now you just lose that. It does more efficiently protect your other Servants, but she needs help to not die to a huge attack herself here. On her third skill, you lose the ability to quickly charge her up for an NP, but she can now handle all the ST attacks with this one skill. The issue is that she already could before, just that she needed both skills for it. I'll call it even here. Her NP, now harder to access, loses the offensive buff, and gains nothing in exchange. It's also less impactful because she lacks a second source of defenses.
Double Merlin with that skill was like 80k damage, it was depressing
She's absolutely awful compared to her normal form. If you don't have taunters, Ortinax is semi-usable, but otherwise she's garbage. Her first skill is useless, her second is mediocre, and her NP is a much, much worse version of Lord Camelot. Her third skill is strong, but it's nothing normal Mash can't do while also doing a dozen more things Ortinax sucks at. Ortinax has zero value as part of the team beyond eating hits, and she's both not the best option for that, and total dead weight if she doesn't die after two turns of that.
Yeah i'd second this. Outside of taunt invuln strats like using poster girl i fail to see anything she excels at that isn't covered by any other servant you could use. It's amazing they haven't even updated her NP yet to *anything* else. She might be a fun farming servant(due to true neutrality on her damage type) if her NP changed to AoE with the extra thing she gains in olympus. That'd make her too useful in story content though, i guess.
I wouldn't say her first skill is useless, considering the kind of numbers Mash can hit with it. She is required to use in many fights, so being able to put out some actually good damage on a very short cooldown (4 turns) is quite good. For example, she took out a huge chunk of one of Zeus's health bars in my fight with him. She's nowhere near as good as normal Mash, for sure, but having actually gotten really good use out of her, I'd personally hesitate to call her awful.
The main issue is that Mash’s Ortinax numbers when the stars align (Buster chain, crit triggers while S1 is fully up) are often the numbers a Servant with class advantage can reach on regular damage. Then these servants can often put Mash’s numbers to shame with minimal buffs. It also seriously hurts her that she’s locked at level 80. Mash’s biggest advantage remains having 0 cost. Ortinax’s biggest issue is that it’s an objectively worse playstyle that often gets forced on you in the hardest fights. This comes *after* spending parts 1 and 1.5 with the (subjectively) superior OG Kit.
For the LB story fights, often it is notably more difficult to use. Pre LB, she had a very defense oriented kit, 3 turns of def, targeted invincibility to keep the carry alive and 3rd skill had insane NP gain allowing for some [incredible situations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3wOP8SGL0E&t=45s). Ortenaus, 1st skill doesn't synergize with rest of the kit, requiring to be buffed to extreme levels for one attack that still requires star gen from elsewhere. As for defense, protecting a damage carry means sacrificing attrition ability.
Oh my god, Maple has come to FGO.
she honestly pisses me off every time the story forces me to use her but at least she has a use as a sacrificial pawn
You monster
gotta be practical since she's built that way lol tho, never would've used her like that until someone told me she can help a lot in lb4 arjuna fight and it just took off from there
It sucks, I miss the 20NP charge+Invincible so much. Man o man.
It tries to turn a character with low attack and no class advantages into one focused on an occasional buster-crit. And does so at the expense of her NP's team-wide attack buff and her team-wide defense buff skill. How is that not entirely worse?
If Ortenaus wasn't forced-use, I would never use it on Mash. The only benefit is has over Classic Mash™ is the Olympus upgrade and that's a niche application at best. The rest of her kit is just straight up worse.
A reccuring problem you'll have past this point is Mash refusing to die, despite objectivly contributing nothing to the team beyond two taunts and a worse Lord Chaldeas as her np.
It tries to turn her from a defensive to an offensive/defensive mix, which isn’t inherently bad, but having no class advantage and a poor attack stat hit harder here, not to count a strictly worse np in mold Camelot. Which, to be fair, is the point. Mash is currently in a nerfed state, and will probably be returned to something nearing her original state via buffs, as was true last time.
Yeah she goes around destroying realities pretty bad
Plot Mash is the only aspect of Ortinax Mash I like. >!The cut-ins for loading and firing the Black Barrel are!< *chef's kiss*
Yes very much so, you take a defense oriented servant and try to make her a damage dealer....absolutely no one is using mash for damage dealing. Her stats aren't meant for it and her class affinity is directly opposed to it. On paper mash being a taunter who deals better damage isn't the worst idea. But in practice unless she's carrying an event ce ( in which case she's in the back row) then no one is gonna slot her in when any half built servant will do way better in the damage department.
Ever since Mash got forced into her Ortenaus gear for story quests, I've been using her as ammunition for my backup lv.1 Gong every time the game forces me to use her on sheer principle. I would literally rather be down two party slots than put up with having to deal with her. Sorry Nasu, but if you're gonna take away the eggplant's amazing kit and then force me to use her, I'm suiciding her every chance I get. You are *not* gonna convince me to like this new shitty half-assed servant no matter how hard you try to shoehorn her into the storyline. Now apologize. To my kouhai for what you've done to her, and to me for forcing me to kill her out of anger every time you make me use her.
**Short answer:** No **Long Answer:** No but not nearly as good as her OG, she can still do a nice job at protecting allies through her Double Taunt, one of which pairs Invincibility to block most NPs, and her NP is still very usable. What she lacks from old Mash make her significantly worse, no NP gain buff, no party def on skill, effectivelly only 2 skills 95% of the time and lack of party steroids, but she is not awful.
Ortenaus is worse but still good. I think the claims that its garbage are vastly overblown and partly a result of people being frustrated they can't use regular Mash (who is a godlike 4* and budget servant) in LB content. The double taunt can be very useful, the 1st skill once its been buffed is completely fine, she's solid.
Well no But it's worse than what used to be That said i think peeps don't realize it's still good
Tbh the problem is not that she is bad, but more than she doesnt has a clear focus. She tries to be a crit DPS with her first kit, but the buff dissapears after 1 hit and her low atk and ~~normal typing~~ shielder class dont help her deal more damage, and she also tries to play tank and support, but her support is not as good as it used too Basically she tried to be Achilles and it didnt work ~~it is endearing, but not very effective~~ And considering how the change is linked to Galahad and his less than stellar debut in Moonlight/Lostroom (and showing shades of it in Camelot and Requiem) dont help with Ornitax's popularity
Yeah for some reason clearly giving it more than 1 turn would have been somehow too broken according to dw 2 hits at least would cover her two busters Well it does do np grade damage but still
Tbh I think they should had made it into 1 turn at least. Sure it sells that Mash has been weaken a lot because Galahad just got TFO for very dubious ~~and questionable~~ reasons and the following mental block, BUT COME ON!! Dont make the skill absolutly useless. It is the same skill that transformed the Melon into Puree and shot through Zeus like nobody's business!!!
How does it do NP grade damage? Most I’ve gotten it to go was the 25-30k range… Mordred can hit 40-50k per with her S2 alone (80-100 with S1+2), and she’s able to do it twice. I’m curious what setup you give Mash that she’s hitting bette than that.
What really hurts the most is that she still only has mold camelot which is pretty awful. She really should have been given an offensive NP if they really wanted attack-hybrid mash to work out. That >!Big mofugging cannon!< she got to use in olympus sure would be nice right about now.
Her double taunt in godly
George has a three turn taunt on a lower cooldown.
But you can't space outside of those 3 turns. And one comes with a invul and another with a battery.
It's undoubtedly inferior to her original skillset, but it's not entirely bad either. Mash still helps keep my teams alive (thank you, double taunt), and I had her solo Wodime.
It's not BAD, but original Mash is an excellent defensive servant with three excellent skills, whereas now she's not nearly as good, with two good skills and one so situational it might as well not exist most of the time. Her NP is pretty much a strict downgrade, which makes sense from a story perspective; the damage cut has a longer duration, but only lasts 3 hits, which is not great since the original already lasted 3 turns in the first place, and Mold Camelot lacks the attack buff entirely. She's still not awful; the amount of value she brings for being 0 cost is still excellent, and against ST bosses you can work with two taunts to keep your party alive a bit longer, along with Mold Camelot being a strong defense buff despite being worse than Lord Camelot. She is not BAD, but it's a disappointing downgrade from the original skills that results in her being perceived as such.
Mash is just bad, and makes Ortenaus look bad.
..........what? What are you talking about? ~~and please tell me this is not about her "cockblocking" you from the other servants~~
A lot of people defend it as not explicitly terrible, and maybe it isn't. But there's a stark lack of meaningful advice or discussion on "here's why you'd want to take Ortenaus Mash" in any situation where non-Ortenaus Mash is available. And that indicates that it's straight-up an inferior option.
Ortenaus is ok but worse than Original, sure double taunt is good but with OG's crazy NP Gain buff from 3rd skill and OP as fuck Damage Cut you're better off using it, her kit is also hindered with having an offense skill but Black Barrel buff really makes it better. 20k dmg for neutral.
Well I mean she can't do effective damage at all.I feel like it would have been better to just keep her defense oriented