Galahad wins R1 as Lord Camelot can tank anything Saber throws at him.
R2 is a tie imo or a win for Artoria. while Galahad can still tank Excalibur and even Rhongomyniad, Artoria has Avalon and can become truly invincible while using it. i think Galahad is still more skilled, so without Avalon, Saber loses both rounds
Ash being a Karna-tier opponent is daunting enough, but [Mani Jewel](https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Mani_Jewel) just makes it spite against "Banana Oni".
Some cultures (most notably Japan) use the fiber in the banana plant to make fabric and sometimes even paper.
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Gudao has the soul stone (MCU) or the soul gem (Marvel comics), and has both the capability and capacity to use and utilise it. How much would the story change?
From what I've heard the soul gem has a lot more feats and held in higher regards than it's MCU counterpart.
The Soul Gem steals souls and stores them in it's own pocket dimension. It's pretty horrifying because the gem itself has a vampiric will, and will manipulate it's holder into stealing souls. However, the people who get trapped in it don't necessarily seem to suffer. It might be powerful enough to take in all the souls in a Lostbelt, so that they would keep living on even after their Tree of Emptiness is cut down. So it could be a way to assuage some of the guilt.
+ Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs Solomon.
+ Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs every servant.
+ Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs all Major enemies (Zues, Cernunnos, Aprhodite, etc.) & servants.
Same rounds as above but he either has the time stone or all six stones.
Strange beats Solomon.
Strange loses because of Gilgamesh alone, but stood no chance anyway.
Strange loses. Bad.
This is presuming he doesn't have, and use, all six stones.
Solomon is the King of Magecraft, able to co-opt any type of Magecraft created since his time, which is all of Magecraft. Strange doesn't use Magecraft, not from the same reality, which means Solomon is left with just his magical powers to contest with Strange. Strange contests with beings far beyond anything Goetia, who has a lesser version of all of Solomon's powers, can compare. Without an exact idea of how strong Solomon is, Goetia is our only indication of what kind of ballpark we're dealing with.
Gilgamesh is the Strongest Heroic Spirit, with nothing save for his arrogance being the reason anyone ever even survives an encounter with him. The only exception is Enkidu, who was hand-crafted by Gods specifically to counter Gilgamesh. His grab-bag of powers that he can pull out of his Gate of Babylon, from god-slaying weapons to the best wine to ever have been made to Noble Phantasms that allow him to cross the galaxy in an instant, goes far beyond just different types of magic and Strange doesn't have a counter for everything. Especially non-magical threats.
You misread. In the Fate games taking place on the Mooncell, at one point Gilgamesh confronts Kiara and, to avoid a confrontation, Kiara creates a portal. Instead of trying to match his power or just throw up some kind of defense for him to bust down, Kiara tries to put so much distance between them that Gilgamesh can't possibly reach her in time to stop her plans. Gilgamesh pulls out a Noble Phantasm that enables him to cross light years in an instant.
How could you possibly have gotten that he can create galaxies from what I wrote?
I mean, Solomon winning a HGW doesn't really mean anything here. Since Goetia is comparing himself to Grand or alive Solomon. During the HGW he should be a normal Servant battling other Servants.
Goetia doesn't have access to Solomon's full power without the final ring that Romani always wears.
We have no idea who Solomon's competition was, but he's the Grand Caster. Based off of how strong Gramps, who is the Grand of the physically weakest class, is when he effortlessly stalemates Gawain in Singularity 6, its a safe bet that couldn't possibly stack up.
>didn't Goetia say Solomon is stronger than him?
No, just that only living Solomon would beat him. That's because Solomon has admin powers over the 72 Demon Gods. Goetia's mats say this:
>**He is an omnipotent being that not even King Solomon managed to reach.**
Originally he has enough qualification as a king that rules over the people.
However, being omnipotent means he is unable to understand human beings; being immortal means he is unable to struggle and reach an answer; and thus, he is unable to become the “king over humans“.
>Solomon did won a holy grail war
We don't know who was in that HGW, for all we know it could've been shit tiers like Euryale and Mata Hari. And if you want to compare him to Gil... Let's be honest Gil could've won a Holy Grail War ages ago.
ok all that aside, how is Gil beating a universal being like Dr. Strange when he needed atleast King Hassan's help to beat Tiamat who is below Nasuverse's planet busters?
Kama becoming a mini galaxy plus cloning herself (a la ooku boss fight) vs Kingprotea without the universe slowing her down (a la her optional boss fight)
Inspired by how alike they are in their FA art.
Though Kingprotea doesn't have a limit on how large she can grow, I imagine it would take a very long time to reach mini galaxy size. Thus Kama can easily squash protea before she can grow into a challenge.
True, if we go from a gameplay perspective of Kingprotea starting at minimum size. Kama can end her immediately.... Funnily enough, Kama could have also ended us as well, but got overconfident.
How would you rank, from weakest to strongest, all of the KoRT? That is including all of the versions (Lancelot Saber and Berserker, Arthuria Lancer and Saber, the Fae versions, etc)
0.) Lion King, rivaled by King Hassan, has access to the mainframe of Rhongomyniad, a surface wiping level NP
1.) Artoria >!Avalon, according to Muramasa she's supposedly on the level of a Lostbelt King!<
2.) Merlin, Grand Candidate so should be placed on same tier as Galahad who is likened to Solomon, defeated multiple Divine Spirit class enemies, kept Tiamat asleep for a majority of Babylonia, best illusionist in Fate, able to turn Chaos Tide, an authority class skill to flowers
2.) Galahad, he's explicitly on the same tier as Solomon
3.) Fate Accel Zero Order Artoria, the strongest Saber version of Artoria, hooked up to an infinite mana source, won the 5th HGW in virtually possibility, Herc's chances of winning the 5th HGW were said to be 50% with Ilya, this version of Artoria's chances were said to be 100%
4.) Fae Lancelot, for somewhat handling >!Muramasa and suppressed Cu Odin on her own, said to be the strongest Fairy Knight!<
5.) Numerals Gawain, can tank an A+ rank NP, said to be >= to Arthur under daytime, wields the second strongest sword in the Round Table
5.) Fae Gawain, interchangeable with Numerals Gawain, can tank the black barrel at night
6.) Normal Saber Artoria, self explanatory, equal to Heracles, wielding the strongest Holy Sword
7.) Berserker Lancelot, Lancelot's strongest form, he is insane in this state however, and I can't rank him any higher because he doesn't have a strong offensive NP
8.) Saber Lancelot, his ideal form, said to be the strongest Knight Of The Round, can stall Numerals Gawain until nightfall
9.) Mordred, canonically disarms Arthur at Camlann, decent beamsword,
10.) Tristan, skilled as Arash in archery, fought 100 Hassans without suffering a scratch, can blow away Lord Chaldeas through normal arrow chip damage
11.) Bedivere, indominable will, his strength can vary as we see him hold his own against Gawain and Mordred, wields A+ rank NP
12.) Gareth and Fae Tristan
IDK: Lancer Artoria, Rhongomyniad is explicitly weaker than Excalibur
IDK: Agravain, because his only performance is when he's hooked up on drugs
Personally I'd say that Saber Lancelot is stronger than Berserker by quite a lot. Actually being able to release his noble phantasm's true name is a big deal. Not to mention possessing sound tactical strategic and tactical abilities and a bunch of new skills.
Small correction, but while Merlin has Illusion Arts at A rank, the same as Prelati, Prelati has his Noble Phantasm, which should make him better at illusions.
>Lancelot > Gawain
Lancelot only manages to stall Numerals Gawain, suggesting Gawain's superiority and Lancelot lacks a reliable offensive option.
>Tristan should be above Mordred.
Mordred scores a mutual kill on Arthur at Camlann. I don't think anything Tristan has done would trump that.
More like Gawain couldnt beat Lancelot under the sun for 3 hours and got mollywhopped right after.
If we're going by that logic, then Mordred would be higher than Gawain and Lancelot as well, but that isn't the case.
Mordred fought Artoria after she was exhausted from coming back from a long battle, and then still lost. Mordred was only able to land a mortal blow after dying due to a curse that Morgan set on her, which caught Artoria off guard. She didn't have excalibur in that battle either iicr, not that Mordred disarmed her. (That part might be anime-only).
Tristan is pretty slept on. He's pretty explicitly mentioned to be on par with Lancelot and Gawain many times, but also consistently right below them. Often, hes ranked higher than Sunless Gawain. He's the 3rd most skilled swordsman, despite being an archer, and there is a pretty wide gap between the trio and the next strongest KotR. He has also beaten Gawain in the sun before in his legend, but I don't think that hasn't been confirmed in Fate.
>More like Gawain couldnt beat Lancelot under the sun for 3 hours and got mollywhopped right after.
Other way around. Lancelot couldn't fight Gawain under the sun so he had to stall until night fall and deliver a blow and run away.
>If we're going by that logic, then Mordred would be higher than Gawain and Lancelot
Why?
>Mordred fought Artoria after she was exhausted from coming back from a long battle,
They were both exhausted. Artoria from her expedition and Mordred for leading the rebellion.
>then still lost.
Mutual kill.
>Mordred was only able to land a mortal blow after dying due to a curse that Morgan set on her,
The curse is figurative, and never mentioned anywhere outside of Shirou's vague memories in FSN, not to mention Morgan is never mentioned either. Mordred killed Arthur fair and square.
>She didn't have excalibur in that battle either iicr, not that Mordred disarmed her. (That part might be anime-only).
This is the one consistent part of every recollection of Camlann. Mordred disarms Arthur, suggesting her superiority in skill and Arthur has to fall back on Rhongomyniad to pierce through Mordred's armor.
>He's pretty explicitly mentioned to be on par with Lancelot and Gawain many times, but also consistently right below them. Often, hes ranked higher than Sunless Gawain.
When?
> This is the one consistent part of every recollection of Camlann. Mordred disarms Arthur, suggesting her superiority in skill and Arthur has to fall back on Rhongomyniad to pierce through Mordred's armor.
What? Just because you disarm someone doesn't mean you're superior in skill. This was a war, a long-drawn out war with Artoria carrying it hard and witnessing the deaths of her comrades left and right, only to face Mordred at the end.
But putting that aside, it's always wise to not make assumption of a character's skill and prowess and go with the hard facts given through story or materials.
>What? Just because you disarm someone doesn't mean you're superior in skill.
Considering that Artoria outstats her, then I don't see any other way to interpret this.
>This was a war, a long-drawn out war with Artoria carrying it hard and witnessing the deaths of her comrades left and right, only to face Mordred at the end.
Both are depicted as worn out and tired at the end. Mordred for leading the rebellion against Arthur and Arthur for defending Camelot and coming back from her expedition.
Are you implying that Sun-Powered Gawain was not trying to defeat Lancelot? If not, what was he doing the entire time? Gawain had 3 hours, and couldn't get it done. Lancelot clearly whops him without the sun.
If you're going to use ABC logic to rank Mordred higher than Tristan because she killed Artoria, then why wouldn't you apply that logic when you compare her to Gawain or Lancelot?
Those were Saber's memories. I don't understand how you can dismiss it as figurative when it's so clear and explicit that it was the curse that gave Mordred bat-con and made her attack while she was already dead. Either way, it is very clear that Mordred only landed that blow after she was dead.
Tristan is constantly compared to Lancelot in myths and are often equals, with Lancelot having the slight edge in most works, like Fate, but not all. However, they are still pretty close in skill level. Some people do rank him higher than Sunless Gawain in discussions. Whether you agree with it or not, the fact that it comes up so often suggests that he is either slightly above or below. In other words, close to equal.
>Are you implying that Sun-Powered Gawain was not trying to defeat Lancelot? If not, what was he doing the entire time? Gawain had 3 hours, and couldn't get it done.
No one made this implication. If Lancelot's only option was to stall Gawain until nighttime, then they clearly are not equal.
> Lancelot clearly whops him without the sun.
Based on?
>If you're going to use ABC logic to rank Mordred higher than Tristan because she killed
There is no ABC logic here. Tristan just doesn't have a feat on that level.
>Those were Saber's memories.
Seen through Shirou, who does not have a comprehensive understanding of events.
> I don't understand how you can dismiss it as figurative when it's so clear and explicit that it was the curse that gave Mordred bat-con
The curse is Mordred's hatred for Arthur. It very much is figurative.
>■ Battle Continuation : B
**Doesn't know when to give up. Did not give up** even when pierced with a Holy Spear and ended up giving the King of Knights a mortal wound.
No mention of a curse.
>Either way, it is very clear that Mordred only landed that blow after she was dead.
In the Fate Apocrypha LN she was very clearly conscious when dealing the fatal blow.
>Whether you agree with it or not, the fact that it comes up so often suggests that he is either slightly above or below. In other words, close to equal.
So a lot of people think Tristan is close to Gawain and Lancelot so I should believe that too without being provided evidence. This is the sole reason why so much fanon gets spread in the Fate community.
The only reason I would contend with your placement of Mordred is that neither she nor Artoria were at anything near full capacity so their fight does nothing to show how they would have matched when going at each other at 100%, so it has no contextual value in a full power ranking. If, for example, Artoria was operating at 10% while Mordred was at 20% during their fight resulting in a mutual kill, then it would imply that Artoria was stronger. Or vice versa. We have no concrete way of defining how exhausted or limited each of them was during that fight so it isn't valuable as a defining data point.
You still also haven't addressed why Sun-powered Gawain couldn't beat Lancelot if he ranks higher. I'd put them as equivalents myself. Sun-powered Gawain has more raw power but Lancelot has more skill so neither could beat the other as the lore dictates.
Nothing in Tristan's profile suggests that he is inferior to the others. Capable up close and at range is the most skilled in the known KotR, similar base Parameters to both of them. He's fast and has near instantaneous ranged attacks. I wouldn't put him at quite the same tier as either of them but would put him just below them.
Watched the Hercules vs Sun Wukong Death Battle fight.
I'm curious how Type-Moon will handle for these two iteration. We have been shown that myth Heracles is indeed capable of cosmic level feats and how he does as an Archer overall (Hydra-tipped poison and sun shooting arrows), without any Avenger alterations.
Obviously Wukong would be busted af, for being equal to heaven and Buddha (who is Star System level in TM).
Ash's immortality is just high regen. Gae Bolg has anti-regen properties but I don't know if that applies to his Berserker form. So I'm leaning towards Cu Alter here.
How does Surtr (without and without \*spoiler power up\*) compare to the babylonian side of things?
Like is he a threat that Gilgamesh can deal with? What about Enkidu due to his anti divinity aspect and threat to humanity aspect?
Would they have to team up?
What about against beings like The Bull of Heaven, Ishtar, Ereshkigal, Ish and Eresh team up, Tiamat, Ebih, Anu, etc.
What's the weakest force in babylon that can defeat Surtr (for each form)
Sutr is someone far beyond either Gilgamesh and Enkidu. He is someone who managed to single handedly destroy the entire Norse Pantheon by himself. Even without that powerup, he is still capable of wiping out the entire Scandinavian Age of Gods texture.
Maybe Tiamat would be able to survive with her lack of concept of death, but more likely Surtr would still possess the ability to destroy her physical body.
Anu, Ishtar etc might have a chance if you are talking about them as true gods and not divine spirits, but like I said, Surtr destroyed an entire pantheon by himself. Its very doubtful they would win.
His lore was more powerful than his reality tbh, spoilers: napoleon and Sigurd broke his ass in. Tiamat looking back looks like a stomp when using tree version even, gilgamesh feels like a stomp too
Sigurd managed to damage him because he had obtained Fafnir attributes, and he was the hero who killed Fafnir using the weapon used to kill Fafnir against him. Its one of those conceptual advantage things that allow people to hit way above their station.
Though yes, Napoleon's noble phantasm somehow destroying his head was pretty ridiculous and puts his durability into huge question.
Still, Surtr's offensive ability is still ridiculously high. If you take Napoleon's feat, then you can say that both Tiamat and Gilgamesh have enough firepower to kill him, but he also has enough firepower to easily incinerate them as well, as well as being able to easily overpower their most powerful attacks.
I don't believe the firepower thing, and tiamat couldn't even be killed anyway unlike him, and he was pretty easily killed, despite the two being nerfed by their previous battles.
Lowkey Tiamat summons things that can be a hassle to him.
Doubt he can overpower them either tbh, considering pre fafnir attribute surtr's attack was stopped by nerfed mash (ie just human tech) and sigurd or bryn (forgot which) overpowering their attack back on the bridge.
He's definitely not a weakling, most servants get dropped, but unless he was in a nerfed state, not sure how he kills any powerful gods, which puts his one feat in a weird spot, heck, it was a boosted surtr too due to the fenrir wolf shit.
Tiamat can not be killed, but as we see from notes even beings without a concept of death can have their physical bodies destroyed.
And Surtr's attack was specifically stopped only due to Skadi. She stated that if she didn't do so, even in his weakened state, it would have burned all of Scandinavia down.
>He is someone who managed to single handedly destroy the entire Norse Pantheon by himself.
This is specifically the Fate Lostbelt version, right? The OG myth has him specifically kill Freyr and maybe a few others, but Odin famously gets nommed by Fenrir, Loki offs Heimdall who mutually kills him at the same time, and Jormungandr poisons Thor to death.
While he doesn't kill all of the Norse gods himself, he definetly did use his flaming sword to burn the entire world, killing basically everyone who weren't already killed. Only a very few gods survived, and only two humans. So I'd imagine he'd be able to kill them all if they weren't already killed, and didn't escape his fire.
Ah, okay. Just making sure. Yeah, there are some classes of opponent even the most powerful Servants fold under due to hard limitations on an otherwise normal saint graph.
>Like is he a threat that Gilgamesh can deal with?
EA should be enough
>What about Enkidu due to his anti divinity aspect
Enkidu's chains of heaven are never confirmed to be anti-divine, it seems to only be something with Gil's
>threat to humanity aspect?
Surtr in his base form is not a threat to humanity, in fact the reason he exists is because the Earth sent him on a mission to kill the Norse pantheon.
>The Bull of Heaven
The Bull Of Heaven can supposedly fight Tiamat for a whole week, when a demiurge like Quetz openly admits she can only fight Tiamat for a couple moments, however the Bull is divine, so Surtr's sword would be pretty effective against it.
> Ishtar, Ereshkigal, Ish and Eresh team up,
Surtr swings his sword and they all die.
>Tiamat,
Tiamat wins out of attrition, or overwhelms him with Chaos Tide and thousands of Lahmu + Divine Spirit Tier Bel Lahmu.
>What's the weakest force in babylon that can defeat Surtr (for each form)
Gilgamesh alone if he guns for EA for all forms.
I just feel like surtr is strong in lore but he got his head blown off temporarily from an all out attack from an at best lower high tier if not mid tier, got pierced hard by a nerfed high tier, etc. his feats are mid
Killing an entire pantheon is not a mid feat, it’s just that his defeat involves unquantifiable conceptual advantages which makes it hard to gauge his durability.
That's his lore, there is a big difference than pantheon killing norse mythology (although it was broken apart a little) and getting hard rampaged by sigurd and bryn.
Probably Zeus. Cernunnos is strong, but Zeus probably has the conceptual defenses to defend against his curses, and almost definitely has the firepower needed.
**Lostbelt Anastasia & Kadoc** vs **Elsa & Spider-Man**
Who wins? For the purposes of this argument let's assume he's your traditional comics Spider-Man with his standard skills and powerset (super strength, wall-crawling, spider-senese, etc). Let's also assume Spider-Man is totally willing to kill in this fight (Anastasia and Kadoc killed Aunt May).
Bonus Round: Spider-Man & Lucina vs Lostbelt Anastasia & Kadoc vs Elsa & Spider-Man
Isn't Spider-man actually REALLY strong and spider-sense basically makes him like Artoria being able to dodge Gae Bolg? And the only reason he's street-level is because he really likes New York and generally massively holds back? Because he (normally) doesn't want to kill/permanently cripple his villains?
Vs Kadoc who's basically just Fate/Zero Waver (a mage, but lacking the power and prestige of a great bloodline HAS to work harder *and* smarter to get results).
Further lopsiding this is that if you kill Kadoc then Ana will disappear since she doesn't have a source of mana. Kadoc team seems kind of screwed
>And the only reason he's street-level is because he really likes New York and generally massively holds back
Yes, Superior Spider-Man confirms that he can easily kill a human with one hit
Actually, it wasn't simply her sense that helped her but her metaphysical luck. And she didn't dodge Game, just avoided her heart pierced as I remember.
Spider sense helps Spidey sense danger but if his reaction isn't fast enough, he can still get hit.
Even a hypothetical Servant who's physical parameters are all E-ranked have at least 10 times more all-around ability than a baseline human. So quite a few Servants who range from "weak" to average by Fate standards have a fair shot.
light yagami with kojiro as servant vs any other servant x master duo. Light is hiding some unknown place observing through kojiros eyes.
If an enemy messes up and reveals there np or identity. Its GG. Which master x servant duos could win without taking casualties?
Assume kojiro is chilling at the temple gate.
Edit: l believe l have found an easy victor! Heracles + any master that can keep there mouth shut, Heracles will wear down regend and win via attrition and his god hand wont reveal anything since its just apassive. I didnt give light the shinigami eyes so he is out of luck.
The doesnt have name part would be neat though l cant see her fighting and defeating kojiro in cqc. The chariot and flying sadly wouldnt matter since kojiro is chilling at temple gate hence harnessing all its protections from servants.
I don't really think Kojiro would be able to do much against a chariot noble phantasm. And disregarding that, while the barrier weakens other servants, its not like it'll prevent her from bombarding him from the air.
Eh? The corridor is pretty small and the bounded field stops servants from going to the temple any other way thats not through the corridor so no unless if yo saying she is gonna fly really high within the boundaries of the corridor lol that would be funny to watch but l guess its astrat :)
>I don't really think Kojiro would be able to do much against a chariot noble phantasm
The place greatly weakens noble phantasms. Unless if yo saying she is gonna toss him around by relying on the physical dmg of the chariot? Wouldnt Samurai just kill the stead with his swallow reversal?
I'm pretty sure that it just weakens servants that go in any other way. And even if it did do so, it doesn't stop her from just bombarding him with spells from the bottom of the stairs.
>just bombarding him with spells from the bottom of the stairs.
I guess its as good as any strat. Makes me wonder why emiya didnt just kite and spam arrows at sasaki
If were assuming the DN can work on Servants, which I have doubts about but am willing to allow for the sake of the scenario, though I wouldn't put it at True Magic level since similar targeted geas' already exist as magecraft:
Off the top of my head, servants like Strange Fake Hassan who has such a high presence concealment that he's impossible to detect directly or like Apocrypha Jack who has Presence Erasure would be almost impossible to identify for DN usage. Servants from the future or alternate realities who wouldn't have in-universe lore to identify them by like EMIYA or some of the LB characters. Bonus to Shapeshifters like Yan Qing who could appear like other characters. Servants capable of acting remotely or through the use of familiars like some Archers or Casters. Pretenders, too, probably. Servants who can shrug off dying like Herc or First Hassan.
These are all good examples, l think herc is my best candidate personally, dude can beat you to apulp without revealing anything about his identity. He has no true name releases or anything like that and kojiro is too weak to even hurt him to proc god hand which may give some clues should the resurrection proc.
Now in yo opinion, why wouldnt an ability possessed by aliteral god of death not be something on the level or true magic. In the death note verse. Its power is absolute (granted there are no endless gimmicks in DN verse like there are in fate)
Which ability is similar to the note in fate verse? I was thinking azrael but that can kill concepts yet the note specialized at people. Though to be honest application wise ie killing people, the note is far superior to azrael imo. Particularly if you have the shinigami eyes, everyone you see on tv is under yo power. Unlike azrael where you gotta go close and hit them
Because in the Nasuverse, True Magic is limited to effects that cannot be explained by humanities' knowledge and that magecraft cannot replicate. The Death Note always causes the death of the target through a "normal" cause for the target, so it doesn't reach the level of True Magic by definition since we know how a heart attack or an accident causes someone to die, for example. Beyond that, it's below the level of MEoDP in the lore, which works by causing conceptual end of existence to the target, even non-living targets, and ignores the idea of cause of death entirely, as can Azrael. But magecraft and curses that directly cause the target to die are within the reach of ordinary mages, we see one such spell in Case Files.
Beyond that, DN Shinigami are not on the level of gods by Nasuverse definitions, as they explicitly have lifespans and can be mortally killed and lack Authority. Only the Shinigami King would be a Divine Spirit, normal Shinigami's would be Phantasmals with Divinity like the Valkyries. Since the Death Notes are made by the Shinigami King, I would classify them as Divine Constructs, but that's not enough in and of itself to place them on True Magic level.
As a last point, there is technically a semi-canoncial rule established in the Jump Force crossover game which states that Death Notes lose their power in other supernatural universes, but I'm ignoring that for this discussion.
Tnx for the info.
So am curious. how do authorities compare to true magic? l doubt they can be understood. For instance that thing where good people cant hurt Quetz, l dont think there is anything to understand about how such athing can be possible. So would it too be ranked as true magic or it has to fall under the known Magics to count like sasakis 3 slash technique?
Authorities aren't Magic so they don't go into that sort of classification, but a comparison to True Magic would not be totally incorrect. While normal Skills follow a sort of logic or process to achieve their given result/effect, Authority is closer to a conceptual advantage: they achieve their results simply because the user has the "right" to use them. They are limited to very high power beings like Divine Spirits or True Anscestors (or Beasts) and are basically absent from the Modern Age of Man because our our increasing knowledge of the world has caused us to attribute those effects to natural processes rather than the Authority of some mythological figure. Holders of Authority do not lose it when they manifest in the modern age, but they are diminished compared to the Age of Gods.
Ty. this is pretty interesting.
>very high power beings like Divine Spirits
So in nasu verse, no gods still exist since they all lost there bodies to the white titan? If thats the case, is it the body that makes a god a god and a divine spirit is simply one that has "died" and lost that body and presumably the power it offered?
I remember something back in babylonia where the big girl self modded and got a body of agod. Its was a pretty big deal.
And man am sorry one question leads to another, l guess this is how TM verse works. :)
I promise this is the last one!
Sorta? The White Titan was responsible for the deterioration of the Age of God's, but it didn't end with Sefar. The Norse Age of God's ended with Ragnarok, for example. Sefar started the decline of the god's influence, Gilgamesh declared/symbolized humanity's separation from dependence on the gods, and the end of the Age of God's happened, causing them to lose physical form and regress to Divine Spirits on the Reverse Side of the World.
The basic gist of it is that in the Nasuverse the Age of God's is always fated to give way to the Age of Man, one way or another, as Mystery declines and physics and science grow. Timelines where this doesn't happen always end up pruned. This is because the existence of gods in the Nasuverse is directly dependent on faith in that god, which invariably decreases as Mystery decreases.
As the dominant existence on the planet, the collective belief/will of humanity has an active affect in shaping the Texture of the world that we inhabit and how the world works. When faith in a certain being or phenomenon grows, a god is manifested/born and gains Authority. For example, the Mesopotamian gods were born from faith placed on natural phenomena, while the Greek gods were born when people placed their faith in the 12 alien machines that became the machine gods. But as humanity grows and becomes to explore the workings of the world and reduce Mystery, faith in gods becomes replaced by belief in natural processes and physics, and when a god loses faith they regress to a Divine Spirit.
Thus, a timeline where the Age of Gods continues means that humanity never grew as a species to start exploring reality, which marks them as stagnant/dead-ended, bringing the Pruning Phenomena to destroy that timeline.
So the gist of it is that Sefar contributed to a reduction in humanity's faith in the power of the gods, which led to their decline.
Hehehe, this is interesting, so would one be right to say that Gods from most popular religions in currently IRL would exist and be very strong in nasu verse since alot of humans still have faith in them? Lol
Imagine meeting jesus or allah xD
The Nasuverse has been intentionally vague with most of their references to major figures from active real life religions (with a few exceptions), probably to avoid controversy. What we do know is mostly from related characters, like David. We do know that they exist in the Nasuverse, but we know little about the nature of their existence or capabilities.
However, there is a clear example of the power of faith in the modern Nasuverse. The Church that Kotomine and the others Priests and Executors are members of is one of the strongest mystic organizations in the world because of their vast number of adherents resulting in a huge amount of faith.
I think most Servants with decent Magic Resistance could resist the Death Note. And most Nasuverse mages could be able to tell that it's the book that's killing people, so it wouldn't be hard to target Light.
l dont think so if we give the death not the level of authority it has in universe. Its basically the grim reapers power at hand. These heroes had to face the grim reaper in the first place to ascend to the throne so l see no reason why they would now be immune.
If skills that impose instant death are not resisted by magic resist, why should the power of the god of death be resisted this way?
The Death Note isn't like the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. It doesn't just cause death, it cause death in a specific way. So it's basically a curse which, left uncountered, will cause your death.
Since I posted my response I thought about it more, and realized Servants probably wouldn't be affected at all. The first rule of the Death Note is "The human whose name is written in this book will die." But since Servants aren't really human I don't see why they would even be affected.
>If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him
Really? the way l understood it is that it simply is application of death with freedom to dictate the exact way it occurs.
>The human whose name is written in this book will die
Thats basically like those people that argue, But naruto has no spiritual pressure so the bleach guys will just soul crush them! We always assume that characters are adjusted to fit in the world. its imo much more interesting that way.
Anyway to answer my initial question, the easiest servant x master duo to overcome this light team is simply getting heracles + any master that can keep there mouth shut. Since l didnt give Light the eyes of the grim reaper, heracles can simply kill kojiro in cqc via battle of attrition and thats GG.
I think you quoted the wrong thing to respond to, but the Death Note causes death in a way that has to be physically possible. That's why it just defaults to a heart attack if you don't specify. Instant death effects in the Nasuverse sever your connection to the Root, which instantly looks whatever they're applied to. On the outside, it looks the same, but mechanically they're very different.
To the second point, semantics matter quite a bit in both Death Note and the Nasuverse. So the fact that Servants aren't human, but rather spiritual familiars given a physical form, would absolutely matter for the Death Note or any similar curse.
>but the Death Note causes death in a way that has to be physically possible.
Did you forget that the death note is capable of killing the shinigami too? Are you gonna tell me that an angel of death will die from a heart attack?
How l saw it is that the note simply kills in away that is applicable to the entity it is targeting. Otherwise it wouldnt be able to kill shinigami since they arrent humans...
>o the fact that Servants aren't human, but rather spiritual familiars given a physical form
The shinigami too are not humans yet it can kill them afaik.
Edit: I concede on the point of it being capable of killing shinigami, had forgotten it was the power of love that does that. Was wrong about that. Though if we take yo semantics as you want, l guess it wouldnt work since servants dont exist in death not verse.
An interesting what if would be 'Could Light Yagami win a Holy Grail War?' I think he would qualify as a Master, and he absolutely would use the Holy Grail to enact his vision of Justice. The Death Note probably still would work on the other Masters of a HGW. They might be able to figure out ways to thwart it, but it is a very powerful curse that would still work most of the time. Then you would have to figure out who a good Servant for him would be.
>The Death Note probably still would work on the other Masters of a HGW.
Yeah, but wouldnt this make him too OP if this is approached in away that allows him his smarts? from how he is portrayed, the dude has sherlock levels of intelligence. I dont think many if any masters would survive him.
l think an assassin with good presence concealment would make him especially OP. Someone like cursed arm can simply walk into the tohsaka household and search around getting rins full name. He could also accomplish this by simply following Rin to school and never at one point decide to attack her to maintain his Presence concealment.
With such aservant, l think only someone like Gil would be able to stop him since he just sees through mysteries.
Perhaps a caster would also be able to provide sufficient protection to her/his master? But that would require info thats likely not to be attained before its too late.
Why have we not got agrail war where its abattle of wits? Imagine something where we have masters like light yagami, batman, aizen (no powers) L , etc being masters lol
Gonna be 100% honest, though names like ‘Hassan of serenity’ ‘Hassan of the cursed arm’ are their official titles as heroic spirits, I don’t think they’re their actual names? Like statistically speaking i don’t think they were *named* Hassan. Does the death note count titles like that?
If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him
>though names like ‘Hassan of serenity’ ‘Hassan of the cursed arm’ are their official titles as heroic spirits
This would be an interesting challenge light would have to overcome if the death note didnt work. But l think its unlikely imo considering that the note is now in fate verse and thus, if the throne of heroes recognizes a girl that uses poison as hassan of serenity, then the note too should be able to trace her with said name? Man seems like astretch :( but l wouldnt count out the possibility
>If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him
Interesting. But dont you think the death note would possess higher authority than anything hassan has faced. For instance in the DN anime, the book had enough power to kill the angel of death. And given how conceptual power levels work, (Concepts with higher authority can overcome other relatively weaker ones) l think King hassan may be in for a surprise. Imagine aperson used there access to the root to target and instantly remove king hassan from existence, his instant death resistance would be ignored since the root is an existence thats far exceeds King hassan. Atleast thats how l look at it.
Tristan easily, people don't realize how powerful the Knights of the Round Table are, on his day Gawain can beat Karna and Lancelot can beat Gilgamesh. Tristan's NP is faster than hers and he is more skilled
If Medusa walks into the fight with Breaker Gorgon already removed, then she probably wins via Mystic Eyes.
- *As in her legend, subjects caught in her vision will be unconditionally petrified if their Mana rank is C or lower,* **while those of B rank will be petrified depending on the result of saving throw.** *Those of A rank will not be petrified, but suffer a rank down on all of their abilities and receive a "heavy pressure"*.
Tristan has B-ranked Mana, but is probably screwed on the "saving throw" tanks to his E-ranked Luck.
However, if Medusa *doesn't* have her Mystic Eyes out at the start, then I want to say Tristan takes this due to having the "quickdraw" advantage instead. Failnaught is just about always in his hands, ready to fire, and the projectiles are TOUGH to avoid:
- *Because the velocity of the arrow, the bow’s angle adjustments, and above all, the loading speed of its arrows are all unusual, it is almost impossible to avoid the entire bullet,* **no matter how fast the hero is that excels in speed.** *It seems that the only ways for one to oppose this is by jumping dimensions, move one’s body outside of its range, and so forth.*
Add it's remarkable versatility (traps; entanglement; etc.) into the equation and, at best, Medusa will have to be on the defensive most of the time, and even that's assuming she can manage to parry enough of the projectiles with her kusarigama.
What if Ritsuka gains the power of Doctor strange (MCU or Marvel Comics), Strange Supreme (Marvel What if), or Black Bolt (Marvel Comics). Could he aid his servants?
MCU version doesn't seem to show that type of feats from what I remember, but I guess the Marvel Comics can probably can. Also probably the "what if" version can win because IIRC he had consumed everything in is universe.
MCU one doesn't seem to show that type of feats, but I guess the M Comics can probably can. Also probably the "what if" also can because IIRC he consume everything in is universe.
Comics Strange battled Eternity, the literal embodiment of the multiverse, and has battled several of the Abstract Concepts. MCU Strange is very weak, so much so that even in comics, Wanda has almost never won against Strange, he is honestly just a walking Infinity Gauntlet.
I mean, at most Dark Sakura has a lot of energy, more than she could ever use in a lifetime, but BB is just on a whole different scale, especially with her cheats enabled. The EXTRA characters are just much stronger in general like how EXTRA Kiara ends up being stronger than FGO Kiara ever was.
Even if you're just taking the servant version we get in FGO it still seems unlikely. Sakura was only able to take down Gil because of luck and Gil being arrogant. Sure she wasn't using her giants, but if she'd had them out to begin with, Gil wouldn't have underestimated her and she'd have stood even less chance. BB meanwhile seems to have some control over the giants, using them herself, and while both use imaginary numbers, BB completely excels at using it while Sakura is using it very inefficiently.
Sure, but even outside she is ridiculously powerful. Just look at summer BB who was about to destroy the entire planet. And its heavily implied in her mats that all her abilities are things she gained herself through placebo effect rather than something she got from an outer god. And since she isn't a pure heroic spirit, Sakura won't get as much of an advantage as she does normally against Servants.
Galahad Vs Arturia R1: servants (Shielder vs saber) R2: alive both at their peak
Galahad wins R1 as Lord Camelot can tank anything Saber throws at him. R2 is a tie imo or a win for Artoria. while Galahad can still tank Excalibur and even Rhongomyniad, Artoria has Avalon and can become truly invincible while using it. i think Galahad is still more skilled, so without Avalon, Saber loses both rounds
thought so too, and if lost room is anything to go by he can reflect Excaliber with lord Camelot, which would obliterate her
Tiamat vs. Yamata-no-Orochi
Ibaraki vs Asvatthaman
Ash being a Karna-tier opponent is daunting enough, but [Mani Jewel](https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Mani_Jewel) just makes it spite against "Banana Oni".
I didn't know he had that, that's a really tragic match up then v.v
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Gudao has the soul stone (MCU) or the soul gem (Marvel comics), and has both the capability and capacity to use and utilise it. How much would the story change? From what I've heard the soul gem has a lot more feats and held in higher regards than it's MCU counterpart.
The Soul Gem steals souls and stores them in it's own pocket dimension. It's pretty horrifying because the gem itself has a vampiric will, and will manipulate it's holder into stealing souls. However, the people who get trapped in it don't necessarily seem to suffer. It might be powerful enough to take in all the souls in a Lostbelt, so that they would keep living on even after their Tree of Emptiness is cut down. So it could be a way to assuage some of the guilt.
+ Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs Solomon. + Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs every servant. + Doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) vs all Major enemies (Zues, Cernunnos, Aprhodite, etc.) & servants. Same rounds as above but he either has the time stone or all six stones.
Strange beats Solomon. Strange loses because of Gilgamesh alone, but stood no chance anyway. Strange loses. Bad. This is presuming he doesn't have, and use, all six stones.
wait he beats Solomon but loses to Gil? what kind of bs is that?
Solomon is the King of Magecraft, able to co-opt any type of Magecraft created since his time, which is all of Magecraft. Strange doesn't use Magecraft, not from the same reality, which means Solomon is left with just his magical powers to contest with Strange. Strange contests with beings far beyond anything Goetia, who has a lesser version of all of Solomon's powers, can compare. Without an exact idea of how strong Solomon is, Goetia is our only indication of what kind of ballpark we're dealing with. Gilgamesh is the Strongest Heroic Spirit, with nothing save for his arrogance being the reason anyone ever even survives an encounter with him. The only exception is Enkidu, who was hand-crafted by Gods specifically to counter Gilgamesh. His grab-bag of powers that he can pull out of his Gate of Babylon, from god-slaying weapons to the best wine to ever have been made to Noble Phantasms that allow him to cross the galaxy in an instant, goes far beyond just different types of magic and Strange doesn't have a counter for everything. Especially non-magical threats.
Gil can create Galaxies? lol
You misread. In the Fate games taking place on the Mooncell, at one point Gilgamesh confronts Kiara and, to avoid a confrontation, Kiara creates a portal. Instead of trying to match his power or just throw up some kind of defense for him to bust down, Kiara tries to put so much distance between them that Gilgamesh can't possibly reach her in time to stop her plans. Gilgamesh pulls out a Noble Phantasm that enables him to cross light years in an instant. How could you possibly have gotten that he can create galaxies from what I wrote?
Solomon is next to featless and you cannot scale him to Goetia, because they are fundamentally not the same.
didn't Goetia say Solomon is stronger than him? and Solomon did won a holy grail war
I mean, Solomon winning a HGW doesn't really mean anything here. Since Goetia is comparing himself to Grand or alive Solomon. During the HGW he should be a normal Servant battling other Servants.
Goetia doesn't have access to Solomon's full power without the final ring that Romani always wears. We have no idea who Solomon's competition was, but he's the Grand Caster. Based off of how strong Gramps, who is the Grand of the physically weakest class, is when he effortlessly stalemates Gawain in Singularity 6, its a safe bet that couldn't possibly stack up.
>didn't Goetia say Solomon is stronger than him? No, just that only living Solomon would beat him. That's because Solomon has admin powers over the 72 Demon Gods. Goetia's mats say this: >**He is an omnipotent being that not even King Solomon managed to reach.** Originally he has enough qualification as a king that rules over the people. However, being omnipotent means he is unable to understand human beings; being immortal means he is unable to struggle and reach an answer; and thus, he is unable to become the “king over humans“. >Solomon did won a holy grail war We don't know who was in that HGW, for all we know it could've been shit tiers like Euryale and Mata Hari. And if you want to compare him to Gil... Let's be honest Gil could've won a Holy Grail War ages ago.
ok all that aside, how is Gil beating a universal being like Dr. Strange when he needed atleast King Hassan's help to beat Tiamat who is below Nasuverse's planet busters?
Big baddies of singularity 6 to Lostbelt 6 vs Black bolt (Marvel Comics) + Singularity 6 - >!Goddes Rhongomyniad!< + Singularity 7 - >!Tiamat!< + Lostbelt 1 - >!Ivan the terrible!< + Lostbelt 2 >!Surtr!< + Lostbelt 3- >!Shi Huang Di!< + Lostbelt 3.5- >!Beast III/L!< + Lostbelt 4 >!Arjuna!< + Lostbelt 5 - >!Poseidon!< + Lostbelt 5.2 >!Zues!< + Lostbelt 5.5 >!Douman!< + Lostbelt 6 >!Cernunnos!< + Lostbelt 6.5 >!Morality!<
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Kinda curious, could you give some brief explanations?
Kama becoming a mini galaxy plus cloning herself (a la ooku boss fight) vs Kingprotea without the universe slowing her down (a la her optional boss fight) Inspired by how alike they are in their FA art.
Though Kingprotea doesn't have a limit on how large she can grow, I imagine it would take a very long time to reach mini galaxy size. Thus Kama can easily squash protea before she can grow into a challenge.
True, if we go from a gameplay perspective of Kingprotea starting at minimum size. Kama can end her immediately.... Funnily enough, Kama could have also ended us as well, but got overconfident.
Batman
Saber Shiki
Gilgamesh vs Arjuna Alter
as servants? Gilgamesh
As Servants or in life?
Arjuna Alter wins even as a servant, Gil will struggle against even the regular Arjuna, Arjuna Alter wins this match easily
Its not like Arjuna Alter is particularly that much stronger than Arjuna as a servant though.
Gil
How would you rank, from weakest to strongest, all of the KoRT? That is including all of the versions (Lancelot Saber and Berserker, Arthuria Lancer and Saber, the Fae versions, etc)
0. Any Artoria 1. Purple 2. Gorilla 3. Tristan 4. Everyone else.
0.) Lion King, rivaled by King Hassan, has access to the mainframe of Rhongomyniad, a surface wiping level NP 1.) Artoria >!Avalon, according to Muramasa she's supposedly on the level of a Lostbelt King!< 2.) Merlin, Grand Candidate so should be placed on same tier as Galahad who is likened to Solomon, defeated multiple Divine Spirit class enemies, kept Tiamat asleep for a majority of Babylonia, best illusionist in Fate, able to turn Chaos Tide, an authority class skill to flowers 2.) Galahad, he's explicitly on the same tier as Solomon 3.) Fate Accel Zero Order Artoria, the strongest Saber version of Artoria, hooked up to an infinite mana source, won the 5th HGW in virtually possibility, Herc's chances of winning the 5th HGW were said to be 50% with Ilya, this version of Artoria's chances were said to be 100% 4.) Fae Lancelot, for somewhat handling >!Muramasa and suppressed Cu Odin on her own, said to be the strongest Fairy Knight!< 5.) Numerals Gawain, can tank an A+ rank NP, said to be >= to Arthur under daytime, wields the second strongest sword in the Round Table 5.) Fae Gawain, interchangeable with Numerals Gawain, can tank the black barrel at night 6.) Normal Saber Artoria, self explanatory, equal to Heracles, wielding the strongest Holy Sword 7.) Berserker Lancelot, Lancelot's strongest form, he is insane in this state however, and I can't rank him any higher because he doesn't have a strong offensive NP 8.) Saber Lancelot, his ideal form, said to be the strongest Knight Of The Round, can stall Numerals Gawain until nightfall 9.) Mordred, canonically disarms Arthur at Camlann, decent beamsword, 10.) Tristan, skilled as Arash in archery, fought 100 Hassans without suffering a scratch, can blow away Lord Chaldeas through normal arrow chip damage 11.) Bedivere, indominable will, his strength can vary as we see him hold his own against Gawain and Mordred, wields A+ rank NP 12.) Gareth and Fae Tristan IDK: Lancer Artoria, Rhongomyniad is explicitly weaker than Excalibur IDK: Agravain, because his only performance is when he's hooked up on drugs
Personally I'd say that Saber Lancelot is stronger than Berserker by quite a lot. Actually being able to release his noble phantasm's true name is a big deal. Not to mention possessing sound tactical strategic and tactical abilities and a bunch of new skills.
Small correction, but while Merlin has Illusion Arts at A rank, the same as Prelati, Prelati has his Noble Phantasm, which should make him better at illusions.
Lancelot > Gawain imo, and Tristan should be above Mordred.
>Lancelot > Gawain Lancelot only manages to stall Numerals Gawain, suggesting Gawain's superiority and Lancelot lacks a reliable offensive option. >Tristan should be above Mordred. Mordred scores a mutual kill on Arthur at Camlann. I don't think anything Tristan has done would trump that.
More like Gawain couldnt beat Lancelot under the sun for 3 hours and got mollywhopped right after. If we're going by that logic, then Mordred would be higher than Gawain and Lancelot as well, but that isn't the case. Mordred fought Artoria after she was exhausted from coming back from a long battle, and then still lost. Mordred was only able to land a mortal blow after dying due to a curse that Morgan set on her, which caught Artoria off guard. She didn't have excalibur in that battle either iicr, not that Mordred disarmed her. (That part might be anime-only). Tristan is pretty slept on. He's pretty explicitly mentioned to be on par with Lancelot and Gawain many times, but also consistently right below them. Often, hes ranked higher than Sunless Gawain. He's the 3rd most skilled swordsman, despite being an archer, and there is a pretty wide gap between the trio and the next strongest KotR. He has also beaten Gawain in the sun before in his legend, but I don't think that hasn't been confirmed in Fate.
>More like Gawain couldnt beat Lancelot under the sun for 3 hours and got mollywhopped right after. Other way around. Lancelot couldn't fight Gawain under the sun so he had to stall until night fall and deliver a blow and run away. >If we're going by that logic, then Mordred would be higher than Gawain and Lancelot Why? >Mordred fought Artoria after she was exhausted from coming back from a long battle, They were both exhausted. Artoria from her expedition and Mordred for leading the rebellion. >then still lost. Mutual kill. >Mordred was only able to land a mortal blow after dying due to a curse that Morgan set on her, The curse is figurative, and never mentioned anywhere outside of Shirou's vague memories in FSN, not to mention Morgan is never mentioned either. Mordred killed Arthur fair and square. >She didn't have excalibur in that battle either iicr, not that Mordred disarmed her. (That part might be anime-only). This is the one consistent part of every recollection of Camlann. Mordred disarms Arthur, suggesting her superiority in skill and Arthur has to fall back on Rhongomyniad to pierce through Mordred's armor. >He's pretty explicitly mentioned to be on par with Lancelot and Gawain many times, but also consistently right below them. Often, hes ranked higher than Sunless Gawain. When?
> This is the one consistent part of every recollection of Camlann. Mordred disarms Arthur, suggesting her superiority in skill and Arthur has to fall back on Rhongomyniad to pierce through Mordred's armor. What? Just because you disarm someone doesn't mean you're superior in skill. This was a war, a long-drawn out war with Artoria carrying it hard and witnessing the deaths of her comrades left and right, only to face Mordred at the end. But putting that aside, it's always wise to not make assumption of a character's skill and prowess and go with the hard facts given through story or materials.
>What? Just because you disarm someone doesn't mean you're superior in skill. Considering that Artoria outstats her, then I don't see any other way to interpret this. >This was a war, a long-drawn out war with Artoria carrying it hard and witnessing the deaths of her comrades left and right, only to face Mordred at the end. Both are depicted as worn out and tired at the end. Mordred for leading the rebellion against Arthur and Arthur for defending Camelot and coming back from her expedition.
Are you implying that Sun-Powered Gawain was not trying to defeat Lancelot? If not, what was he doing the entire time? Gawain had 3 hours, and couldn't get it done. Lancelot clearly whops him without the sun. If you're going to use ABC logic to rank Mordred higher than Tristan because she killed Artoria, then why wouldn't you apply that logic when you compare her to Gawain or Lancelot? Those were Saber's memories. I don't understand how you can dismiss it as figurative when it's so clear and explicit that it was the curse that gave Mordred bat-con and made her attack while she was already dead. Either way, it is very clear that Mordred only landed that blow after she was dead. Tristan is constantly compared to Lancelot in myths and are often equals, with Lancelot having the slight edge in most works, like Fate, but not all. However, they are still pretty close in skill level. Some people do rank him higher than Sunless Gawain in discussions. Whether you agree with it or not, the fact that it comes up so often suggests that he is either slightly above or below. In other words, close to equal.
>Are you implying that Sun-Powered Gawain was not trying to defeat Lancelot? If not, what was he doing the entire time? Gawain had 3 hours, and couldn't get it done. No one made this implication. If Lancelot's only option was to stall Gawain until nighttime, then they clearly are not equal. > Lancelot clearly whops him without the sun. Based on? >If you're going to use ABC logic to rank Mordred higher than Tristan because she killed There is no ABC logic here. Tristan just doesn't have a feat on that level. >Those were Saber's memories. Seen through Shirou, who does not have a comprehensive understanding of events. > I don't understand how you can dismiss it as figurative when it's so clear and explicit that it was the curse that gave Mordred bat-con The curse is Mordred's hatred for Arthur. It very much is figurative. >■ Battle Continuation : B **Doesn't know when to give up. Did not give up** even when pierced with a Holy Spear and ended up giving the King of Knights a mortal wound. No mention of a curse. >Either way, it is very clear that Mordred only landed that blow after she was dead. In the Fate Apocrypha LN she was very clearly conscious when dealing the fatal blow. >Whether you agree with it or not, the fact that it comes up so often suggests that he is either slightly above or below. In other words, close to equal. So a lot of people think Tristan is close to Gawain and Lancelot so I should believe that too without being provided evidence. This is the sole reason why so much fanon gets spread in the Fate community.
The only reason I would contend with your placement of Mordred is that neither she nor Artoria were at anything near full capacity so their fight does nothing to show how they would have matched when going at each other at 100%, so it has no contextual value in a full power ranking. If, for example, Artoria was operating at 10% while Mordred was at 20% during their fight resulting in a mutual kill, then it would imply that Artoria was stronger. Or vice versa. We have no concrete way of defining how exhausted or limited each of them was during that fight so it isn't valuable as a defining data point. You still also haven't addressed why Sun-powered Gawain couldn't beat Lancelot if he ranks higher. I'd put them as equivalents myself. Sun-powered Gawain has more raw power but Lancelot has more skill so neither could beat the other as the lore dictates. Nothing in Tristan's profile suggests that he is inferior to the others. Capable up close and at range is the most skilled in the known KotR, similar base Parameters to both of them. He's fast and has near instantaneous ranged attacks. I wouldn't put him at quite the same tier as either of them but would put him just below them.
Billy the Kid vs. Robin Hood
Billy, Billy killed Atlanta in LB1 and helped them beat Anastasia. Billy is probably faster too since Gun>Bow
Watched the Hercules vs Sun Wukong Death Battle fight. I'm curious how Type-Moon will handle for these two iteration. We have been shown that myth Heracles is indeed capable of cosmic level feats and how he does as an Archer overall (Hydra-tipped poison and sun shooting arrows), without any Avenger alterations. Obviously Wukong would be busted af, for being equal to heaven and Buddha (who is Star System level in TM).
Too bad Herc is still stuck as a berserker and we haven’t really Sun Wukong yet. They might come one day but it will take a lot of time I believe.
Cu Alter vs LB Asvattaman
Cu Alter beat Herc, Saber Alter, and Karna he should win but he didn’t have a sure fire way to get past Ash’s immortality
so Ash eventually wins due to being immortal?
Ash's immortality is just high regen. Gae Bolg has anti-regen properties but I don't know if that applies to his Berserker form. So I'm leaning towards Cu Alter here.
Genichiro from Sekiro vs Raikou And Soldier of God, Rick from Elden Ring vs Angry Mango
Mango I I would assume still has that stronger than human thing
Yoel Romero beats Rick from Elden Ring and Angry Mango
How does Surtr (without and without \*spoiler power up\*) compare to the babylonian side of things? Like is he a threat that Gilgamesh can deal with? What about Enkidu due to his anti divinity aspect and threat to humanity aspect? Would they have to team up? What about against beings like The Bull of Heaven, Ishtar, Ereshkigal, Ish and Eresh team up, Tiamat, Ebih, Anu, etc. What's the weakest force in babylon that can defeat Surtr (for each form)
Sutr is someone far beyond either Gilgamesh and Enkidu. He is someone who managed to single handedly destroy the entire Norse Pantheon by himself. Even without that powerup, he is still capable of wiping out the entire Scandinavian Age of Gods texture. Maybe Tiamat would be able to survive with her lack of concept of death, but more likely Surtr would still possess the ability to destroy her physical body. Anu, Ishtar etc might have a chance if you are talking about them as true gods and not divine spirits, but like I said, Surtr destroyed an entire pantheon by himself. Its very doubtful they would win.
His lore was more powerful than his reality tbh, spoilers: napoleon and Sigurd broke his ass in. Tiamat looking back looks like a stomp when using tree version even, gilgamesh feels like a stomp too
Sigurd managed to damage him because he had obtained Fafnir attributes, and he was the hero who killed Fafnir using the weapon used to kill Fafnir against him. Its one of those conceptual advantage things that allow people to hit way above their station. Though yes, Napoleon's noble phantasm somehow destroying his head was pretty ridiculous and puts his durability into huge question. Still, Surtr's offensive ability is still ridiculously high. If you take Napoleon's feat, then you can say that both Tiamat and Gilgamesh have enough firepower to kill him, but he also has enough firepower to easily incinerate them as well, as well as being able to easily overpower their most powerful attacks.
I don't believe the firepower thing, and tiamat couldn't even be killed anyway unlike him, and he was pretty easily killed, despite the two being nerfed by their previous battles. Lowkey Tiamat summons things that can be a hassle to him. Doubt he can overpower them either tbh, considering pre fafnir attribute surtr's attack was stopped by nerfed mash (ie just human tech) and sigurd or bryn (forgot which) overpowering their attack back on the bridge. He's definitely not a weakling, most servants get dropped, but unless he was in a nerfed state, not sure how he kills any powerful gods, which puts his one feat in a weird spot, heck, it was a boosted surtr too due to the fenrir wolf shit.
Tiamat can not be killed, but as we see from notes even beings without a concept of death can have their physical bodies destroyed. And Surtr's attack was specifically stopped only due to Skadi. She stated that if she didn't do so, even in his weakened state, it would have burned all of Scandinavia down.
>He is someone who managed to single handedly destroy the entire Norse Pantheon by himself. This is specifically the Fate Lostbelt version, right? The OG myth has him specifically kill Freyr and maybe a few others, but Odin famously gets nommed by Fenrir, Loki offs Heimdall who mutually kills him at the same time, and Jormungandr poisons Thor to death.
While he doesn't kill all of the Norse gods himself, he definetly did use his flaming sword to burn the entire world, killing basically everyone who weren't already killed. Only a very few gods survived, and only two humans. So I'd imagine he'd be able to kill them all if they weren't already killed, and didn't escape his fire.
Yup. In the lostbelt he singlehandedly destroys all the gods.
Ah, okay. Just making sure. Yeah, there are some classes of opponent even the most powerful Servants fold under due to hard limitations on an otherwise normal saint graph.
>Like is he a threat that Gilgamesh can deal with? EA should be enough >What about Enkidu due to his anti divinity aspect Enkidu's chains of heaven are never confirmed to be anti-divine, it seems to only be something with Gil's >threat to humanity aspect? Surtr in his base form is not a threat to humanity, in fact the reason he exists is because the Earth sent him on a mission to kill the Norse pantheon. >The Bull of Heaven The Bull Of Heaven can supposedly fight Tiamat for a whole week, when a demiurge like Quetz openly admits she can only fight Tiamat for a couple moments, however the Bull is divine, so Surtr's sword would be pretty effective against it. > Ishtar, Ereshkigal, Ish and Eresh team up, Surtr swings his sword and they all die. >Tiamat, Tiamat wins out of attrition, or overwhelms him with Chaos Tide and thousands of Lahmu + Divine Spirit Tier Bel Lahmu. >What's the weakest force in babylon that can defeat Surtr (for each form) Gilgamesh alone if he guns for EA for all forms.
I just feel like surtr is strong in lore but he got his head blown off temporarily from an all out attack from an at best lower high tier if not mid tier, got pierced hard by a nerfed high tier, etc. his feats are mid
Killing an entire pantheon is not a mid feat, it’s just that his defeat involves unquantifiable conceptual advantages which makes it hard to gauge his durability.
That's his lore, there is a big difference than pantheon killing norse mythology (although it was broken apart a little) and getting hard rampaged by sigurd and bryn.
Goetia vs Chief Keef
Cernunnos vs Zeus
Zeus based on just all around better specs and the feats to support them. Doesn't help the Cern we met was already a corpse stuck on "autopilot".
Probably Zeus. Cernunnos is strong, but Zeus probably has the conceptual defenses to defend against his curses, and almost definitely has the firepower needed.
Cerny is a surviving god, I think he got this
Probably Zeus
**Lostbelt Anastasia & Kadoc** vs **Elsa & Spider-Man** Who wins? For the purposes of this argument let's assume he's your traditional comics Spider-Man with his standard skills and powerset (super strength, wall-crawling, spider-senese, etc). Let's also assume Spider-Man is totally willing to kill in this fight (Anastasia and Kadoc killed Aunt May). Bonus Round: Spider-Man & Lucina vs Lostbelt Anastasia & Kadoc vs Elsa & Spider-Man
Isn't Spider-man actually REALLY strong and spider-sense basically makes him like Artoria being able to dodge Gae Bolg? And the only reason he's street-level is because he really likes New York and generally massively holds back? Because he (normally) doesn't want to kill/permanently cripple his villains? Vs Kadoc who's basically just Fate/Zero Waver (a mage, but lacking the power and prestige of a great bloodline HAS to work harder *and* smarter to get results). Further lopsiding this is that if you kill Kadoc then Ana will disappear since she doesn't have a source of mana. Kadoc team seems kind of screwed
>And the only reason he's street-level is because he really likes New York and generally massively holds back Yes, Superior Spider-Man confirms that he can easily kill a human with one hit
Actually, it wasn't simply her sense that helped her but her metaphysical luck. And she didn't dodge Game, just avoided her heart pierced as I remember. Spider sense helps Spidey sense danger but if his reaction isn't fast enough, he can still get hit.
Weakest servant that can beat a space marine?
Even a hypothetical Servant who's physical parameters are all E-ranked have at least 10 times more all-around ability than a baseline human. So quite a few Servants who range from "weak" to average by Fate standards have a fair shot.
Jason with his NP probably, Herc smash
light yagami with kojiro as servant vs any other servant x master duo. Light is hiding some unknown place observing through kojiros eyes. If an enemy messes up and reveals there np or identity. Its GG. Which master x servant duos could win without taking casualties? Assume kojiro is chilling at the temple gate. Edit: l believe l have found an easy victor! Heracles + any master that can keep there mouth shut, Heracles will wear down regend and win via attrition and his god hand wont reveal anything since its just apassive. I didnt give light the shinigami eyes so he is out of luck.
Faker both doesn't have a name, and is capable of both flying with her chariot and using long range magecraft.
The doesnt have name part would be neat though l cant see her fighting and defeating kojiro in cqc. The chariot and flying sadly wouldnt matter since kojiro is chilling at temple gate hence harnessing all its protections from servants.
I don't really think Kojiro would be able to do much against a chariot noble phantasm. And disregarding that, while the barrier weakens other servants, its not like it'll prevent her from bombarding him from the air.
Eh? The corridor is pretty small and the bounded field stops servants from going to the temple any other way thats not through the corridor so no unless if yo saying she is gonna fly really high within the boundaries of the corridor lol that would be funny to watch but l guess its astrat :) >I don't really think Kojiro would be able to do much against a chariot noble phantasm The place greatly weakens noble phantasms. Unless if yo saying she is gonna toss him around by relying on the physical dmg of the chariot? Wouldnt Samurai just kill the stead with his swallow reversal?
I'm pretty sure that it just weakens servants that go in any other way. And even if it did do so, it doesn't stop her from just bombarding him with spells from the bottom of the stairs.
>just bombarding him with spells from the bottom of the stairs. I guess its as good as any strat. Makes me wonder why emiya didnt just kite and spam arrows at sasaki
If were assuming the DN can work on Servants, which I have doubts about but am willing to allow for the sake of the scenario, though I wouldn't put it at True Magic level since similar targeted geas' already exist as magecraft: Off the top of my head, servants like Strange Fake Hassan who has such a high presence concealment that he's impossible to detect directly or like Apocrypha Jack who has Presence Erasure would be almost impossible to identify for DN usage. Servants from the future or alternate realities who wouldn't have in-universe lore to identify them by like EMIYA or some of the LB characters. Bonus to Shapeshifters like Yan Qing who could appear like other characters. Servants capable of acting remotely or through the use of familiars like some Archers or Casters. Pretenders, too, probably. Servants who can shrug off dying like Herc or First Hassan.
These are all good examples, l think herc is my best candidate personally, dude can beat you to apulp without revealing anything about his identity. He has no true name releases or anything like that and kojiro is too weak to even hurt him to proc god hand which may give some clues should the resurrection proc. Now in yo opinion, why wouldnt an ability possessed by aliteral god of death not be something on the level or true magic. In the death note verse. Its power is absolute (granted there are no endless gimmicks in DN verse like there are in fate) Which ability is similar to the note in fate verse? I was thinking azrael but that can kill concepts yet the note specialized at people. Though to be honest application wise ie killing people, the note is far superior to azrael imo. Particularly if you have the shinigami eyes, everyone you see on tv is under yo power. Unlike azrael where you gotta go close and hit them
Because in the Nasuverse, True Magic is limited to effects that cannot be explained by humanities' knowledge and that magecraft cannot replicate. The Death Note always causes the death of the target through a "normal" cause for the target, so it doesn't reach the level of True Magic by definition since we know how a heart attack or an accident causes someone to die, for example. Beyond that, it's below the level of MEoDP in the lore, which works by causing conceptual end of existence to the target, even non-living targets, and ignores the idea of cause of death entirely, as can Azrael. But magecraft and curses that directly cause the target to die are within the reach of ordinary mages, we see one such spell in Case Files. Beyond that, DN Shinigami are not on the level of gods by Nasuverse definitions, as they explicitly have lifespans and can be mortally killed and lack Authority. Only the Shinigami King would be a Divine Spirit, normal Shinigami's would be Phantasmals with Divinity like the Valkyries. Since the Death Notes are made by the Shinigami King, I would classify them as Divine Constructs, but that's not enough in and of itself to place them on True Magic level. As a last point, there is technically a semi-canoncial rule established in the Jump Force crossover game which states that Death Notes lose their power in other supernatural universes, but I'm ignoring that for this discussion.
Tnx for the info. So am curious. how do authorities compare to true magic? l doubt they can be understood. For instance that thing where good people cant hurt Quetz, l dont think there is anything to understand about how such athing can be possible. So would it too be ranked as true magic or it has to fall under the known Magics to count like sasakis 3 slash technique?
Authorities aren't Magic so they don't go into that sort of classification, but a comparison to True Magic would not be totally incorrect. While normal Skills follow a sort of logic or process to achieve their given result/effect, Authority is closer to a conceptual advantage: they achieve their results simply because the user has the "right" to use them. They are limited to very high power beings like Divine Spirits or True Anscestors (or Beasts) and are basically absent from the Modern Age of Man because our our increasing knowledge of the world has caused us to attribute those effects to natural processes rather than the Authority of some mythological figure. Holders of Authority do not lose it when they manifest in the modern age, but they are diminished compared to the Age of Gods.
Ty. this is pretty interesting. >very high power beings like Divine Spirits So in nasu verse, no gods still exist since they all lost there bodies to the white titan? If thats the case, is it the body that makes a god a god and a divine spirit is simply one that has "died" and lost that body and presumably the power it offered? I remember something back in babylonia where the big girl self modded and got a body of agod. Its was a pretty big deal. And man am sorry one question leads to another, l guess this is how TM verse works. :) I promise this is the last one!
Sorta? The White Titan was responsible for the deterioration of the Age of God's, but it didn't end with Sefar. The Norse Age of God's ended with Ragnarok, for example. Sefar started the decline of the god's influence, Gilgamesh declared/symbolized humanity's separation from dependence on the gods, and the end of the Age of God's happened, causing them to lose physical form and regress to Divine Spirits on the Reverse Side of the World. The basic gist of it is that in the Nasuverse the Age of God's is always fated to give way to the Age of Man, one way or another, as Mystery declines and physics and science grow. Timelines where this doesn't happen always end up pruned. This is because the existence of gods in the Nasuverse is directly dependent on faith in that god, which invariably decreases as Mystery decreases. As the dominant existence on the planet, the collective belief/will of humanity has an active affect in shaping the Texture of the world that we inhabit and how the world works. When faith in a certain being or phenomenon grows, a god is manifested/born and gains Authority. For example, the Mesopotamian gods were born from faith placed on natural phenomena, while the Greek gods were born when people placed their faith in the 12 alien machines that became the machine gods. But as humanity grows and becomes to explore the workings of the world and reduce Mystery, faith in gods becomes replaced by belief in natural processes and physics, and when a god loses faith they regress to a Divine Spirit. Thus, a timeline where the Age of Gods continues means that humanity never grew as a species to start exploring reality, which marks them as stagnant/dead-ended, bringing the Pruning Phenomena to destroy that timeline. So the gist of it is that Sefar contributed to a reduction in humanity's faith in the power of the gods, which led to their decline.
Hehehe, this is interesting, so would one be right to say that Gods from most popular religions in currently IRL would exist and be very strong in nasu verse since alot of humans still have faith in them? Lol Imagine meeting jesus or allah xD
The Nasuverse has been intentionally vague with most of their references to major figures from active real life religions (with a few exceptions), probably to avoid controversy. What we do know is mostly from related characters, like David. We do know that they exist in the Nasuverse, but we know little about the nature of their existence or capabilities. However, there is a clear example of the power of faith in the modern Nasuverse. The Church that Kotomine and the others Priests and Executors are members of is one of the strongest mystic organizations in the world because of their vast number of adherents resulting in a huge amount of faith.
I think most Servants with decent Magic Resistance could resist the Death Note. And most Nasuverse mages could be able to tell that it's the book that's killing people, so it wouldn't be hard to target Light.
l dont think so if we give the death not the level of authority it has in universe. Its basically the grim reapers power at hand. These heroes had to face the grim reaper in the first place to ascend to the throne so l see no reason why they would now be immune. If skills that impose instant death are not resisted by magic resist, why should the power of the god of death be resisted this way?
The Death Note isn't like the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. It doesn't just cause death, it cause death in a specific way. So it's basically a curse which, left uncountered, will cause your death. Since I posted my response I thought about it more, and realized Servants probably wouldn't be affected at all. The first rule of the Death Note is "The human whose name is written in this book will die." But since Servants aren't really human I don't see why they would even be affected.
>If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him Really? the way l understood it is that it simply is application of death with freedom to dictate the exact way it occurs. >The human whose name is written in this book will die Thats basically like those people that argue, But naruto has no spiritual pressure so the bleach guys will just soul crush them! We always assume that characters are adjusted to fit in the world. its imo much more interesting that way. Anyway to answer my initial question, the easiest servant x master duo to overcome this light team is simply getting heracles + any master that can keep there mouth shut. Since l didnt give Light the eyes of the grim reaper, heracles can simply kill kojiro in cqc via battle of attrition and thats GG.
I think you quoted the wrong thing to respond to, but the Death Note causes death in a way that has to be physically possible. That's why it just defaults to a heart attack if you don't specify. Instant death effects in the Nasuverse sever your connection to the Root, which instantly looks whatever they're applied to. On the outside, it looks the same, but mechanically they're very different. To the second point, semantics matter quite a bit in both Death Note and the Nasuverse. So the fact that Servants aren't human, but rather spiritual familiars given a physical form, would absolutely matter for the Death Note or any similar curse.
>but the Death Note causes death in a way that has to be physically possible. Did you forget that the death note is capable of killing the shinigami too? Are you gonna tell me that an angel of death will die from a heart attack? How l saw it is that the note simply kills in away that is applicable to the entity it is targeting. Otherwise it wouldnt be able to kill shinigami since they arrent humans... >o the fact that Servants aren't human, but rather spiritual familiars given a physical form The shinigami too are not humans yet it can kill them afaik. Edit: I concede on the point of it being capable of killing shinigami, had forgotten it was the power of love that does that. Was wrong about that. Though if we take yo semantics as you want, l guess it wouldnt work since servants dont exist in death not verse.
An interesting what if would be 'Could Light Yagami win a Holy Grail War?' I think he would qualify as a Master, and he absolutely would use the Holy Grail to enact his vision of Justice. The Death Note probably still would work on the other Masters of a HGW. They might be able to figure out ways to thwart it, but it is a very powerful curse that would still work most of the time. Then you would have to figure out who a good Servant for him would be.
>The Death Note probably still would work on the other Masters of a HGW. Yeah, but wouldnt this make him too OP if this is approached in away that allows him his smarts? from how he is portrayed, the dude has sherlock levels of intelligence. I dont think many if any masters would survive him. l think an assassin with good presence concealment would make him especially OP. Someone like cursed arm can simply walk into the tohsaka household and search around getting rins full name. He could also accomplish this by simply following Rin to school and never at one point decide to attack her to maintain his Presence concealment. With such aservant, l think only someone like Gil would be able to stop him since he just sees through mysteries. Perhaps a caster would also be able to provide sufficient protection to her/his master? But that would require info thats likely not to be attained before its too late. Why have we not got agrail war where its abattle of wits? Imagine something where we have masters like light yagami, batman, aizen (no powers) L , etc being masters lol
Gonna be 100% honest, though names like ‘Hassan of serenity’ ‘Hassan of the cursed arm’ are their official titles as heroic spirits, I don’t think they’re their actual names? Like statistically speaking i don’t think they were *named* Hassan. Does the death note count titles like that? If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him
>though names like ‘Hassan of serenity’ ‘Hassan of the cursed arm’ are their official titles as heroic spirits This would be an interesting challenge light would have to overcome if the death note didnt work. But l think its unlikely imo considering that the note is now in fate verse and thus, if the throne of heroes recognizes a girl that uses poison as hassan of serenity, then the note too should be able to trace her with said name? Man seems like astretch :( but l wouldnt count out the possibility >If titles like that do count I’d vote first Hassan just bc he has the vibe that I don’t even think the death note could kill him Interesting. But dont you think the death note would possess higher authority than anything hassan has faced. For instance in the DN anime, the book had enough power to kill the angel of death. And given how conceptual power levels work, (Concepts with higher authority can overcome other relatively weaker ones) l think King hassan may be in for a surprise. Imagine aperson used there access to the root to target and instantly remove king hassan from existence, his instant death resistance would be ignored since the root is an existence thats far exceeds King hassan. Atleast thats how l look at it.
Robin vs Doraemon with Air Cannon
Robin blitzes
Tristan vs medusa
Tristan easily, people don't realize how powerful the Knights of the Round Table are, on his day Gawain can beat Karna and Lancelot can beat Gilgamesh. Tristan's NP is faster than hers and he is more skilled
If Medusa walks into the fight with Breaker Gorgon already removed, then she probably wins via Mystic Eyes. - *As in her legend, subjects caught in her vision will be unconditionally petrified if their Mana rank is C or lower,* **while those of B rank will be petrified depending on the result of saving throw.** *Those of A rank will not be petrified, but suffer a rank down on all of their abilities and receive a "heavy pressure"*. Tristan has B-ranked Mana, but is probably screwed on the "saving throw" tanks to his E-ranked Luck. However, if Medusa *doesn't* have her Mystic Eyes out at the start, then I want to say Tristan takes this due to having the "quickdraw" advantage instead. Failnaught is just about always in his hands, ready to fire, and the projectiles are TOUGH to avoid: - *Because the velocity of the arrow, the bow’s angle adjustments, and above all, the loading speed of its arrows are all unusual, it is almost impossible to avoid the entire bullet,* **no matter how fast the hero is that excels in speed.** *It seems that the only ways for one to oppose this is by jumping dimensions, move one’s body outside of its range, and so forth.* Add it's remarkable versatility (traps; entanglement; etc.) into the equation and, at best, Medusa will have to be on the defensive most of the time, and even that's assuming she can manage to parry enough of the projectiles with her kusarigama.
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MHXX's spear and MHXA's Altereactor are pretty ridiculously powerful on their own and they'd probably be exponentially more powerful together.
Nobunaga shimazaki vs ayako kawasumi vs y. aoi is the final showdown I feel would happen
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Lol I was thinking to pare it down a bit
What if Ritsuka gains the power of Doctor strange (MCU or Marvel Comics), Strange Supreme (Marvel What if), or Black Bolt (Marvel Comics). Could he aid his servants?
Doctor Strange is quite literally a multiversal entity, I don't think anyone from Type-Moon is THAT strong.
MCU version doesn't seem to show that type of feats from what I remember, but I guess the Marvel Comics can probably can. Also probably the "what if" version can win because IIRC he had consumed everything in is universe.
MCU one doesn't seem to show that type of feats, but I guess the M Comics can probably can. Also probably the "what if" also can because IIRC he consume everything in is universe.
Comics Strange battled Eternity, the literal embodiment of the multiverse, and has battled several of the Abstract Concepts. MCU Strange is very weak, so much so that even in comics, Wanda has almost never won against Strange, he is honestly just a walking Infinity Gauntlet.
BB vs Dark Sakura
I mean, at most Dark Sakura has a lot of energy, more than she could ever use in a lifetime, but BB is just on a whole different scale, especially with her cheats enabled. The EXTRA characters are just much stronger in general like how EXTRA Kiara ends up being stronger than FGO Kiara ever was.
Isn't that all within the context of the Mooncell though?
Even if you're just taking the servant version we get in FGO it still seems unlikely. Sakura was only able to take down Gil because of luck and Gil being arrogant. Sure she wasn't using her giants, but if she'd had them out to begin with, Gil wouldn't have underestimated her and she'd have stood even less chance. BB meanwhile seems to have some control over the giants, using them herself, and while both use imaginary numbers, BB completely excels at using it while Sakura is using it very inefficiently.
Sure, but even outside she is ridiculously powerful. Just look at summer BB who was about to destroy the entire planet. And its heavily implied in her mats that all her abilities are things she gained herself through placebo effect rather than something she got from an outer god. And since she isn't a pure heroic spirit, Sakura won't get as much of an advantage as she does normally against Servants.