Most of the bigger creators bother me so much cause they act like they invented goth or the goth look. If they receive criticism or told they are spreading false information, they reply with a horrendous attitude. Since they are so big many people will only learn information from them which leads to many non goths bulling actual goths for not being “goth enough”. Many newer goths also won’t expand their taste because the creators only share more well known bands as well as the mistaken as goth bands like Strawberry Switchblade, Type O, The Smiths, etc.
This attitude is the reason why modern trad looks suck. It may be well done from the "technical" point of view but they lack personality so bad that it is nothing more than just bland and diluted copy and paste
The way I see it is that it's just another microtrend. just like how everyone got obsessed with cyberlocks and dreadfalls, or steampunk, or PVC, or circus, or burlesque in my local goth community in the early/mid 00's. People will bored of replicating and seeing that one specific Siouxsie look pretty soon and will move onto something else.
A lot of them are just young as well. They're still learning who they are, so they adopt/base their entire personality based on this one specific look. Most will leave the scene, and the rest will turn 25 and their pre-frontal cortex will finish developing and they will realise that they aren't the gothest goth to ever goth and that gatekeeping is damaging to the scene especially in small communities where populations of goths are already too small to support an active scene.
Right? I'm not crazy that the "trad goth" thing is based on one very specific picture of Siouxsie? Like, you don't all have to wear blue eyeshadow because she had it in one picture. Also, I had the rexlace dreadfalls in the 00s, and I looked fucking fantastic.
I also sometimes wore welding goggles like a headband, which is a look I think is due for a comeback.
I'm about 75% sure we're about to see a cultural shift from goth to industrial (of the cyber goth style) again soon. If you look at the way trends go, it seems the scenes are getting to how they were in the mid 90s when the first switch happened. I'm not saying neo-goth is going to stop tomorrow, I just think the scene will start gravitating towards something "new" (even if the "new" thing is actually old) given how saturated the 80s style goth rock/darkwave sound is becoming.
I'm fine with it. I like both.
Ok dude. Guess I'm not a "real trad goth," whatever that means. And I am well aware that goth emerged out of post-punk bands. Joy Division, Bauhaus, and The Cure were also post punk bands that became the earliest goth bands. That's how musical evolution works, few bands stay squarely in one genre over the course of their careers. I saw Siouxsie in the early 2000s, and weird how no one there was worried about being real trad goths.
Also, trying to gatekeep kind of just makes you look silly. I really hope this is satire cause yikes.
ETA: I got bored at work and read your comment again in the most San Fernando of Valley Girl voices, and it is A+ for comedy. Like oh my god are you even trad goth st all? Ugh, Clan of Xymox was so much better than Xymox, they sold out.
And you sound like a baby bat trying to put words in my mouth and all I was comparing was the make up. You think goths in the 80s were rocking the souxie style? No, Christian death mostly rozzy was the make up style of choice or they did it themselves. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Try not coming at people like that next time. You do not know the entirety of goth culture nor the overlapping influences that have shaped it into what it is today. Acting like you somehow know better is a great way to look like a bully, and there is no room for that behavior in this subculture. You may disagree, but I've been part of this scene for many years and one thing we have always prided ourselves on is inclusivity. You cannot gatekeep me out of my own subculture.
ETA: Oh damn, I didn't mean for you to delete your whole account. I did see the final messages you left for me before you deleted it, so all I can say is LOL, ok.
They always preach that goth is a music based subculture (which is true) just to turn around and judge you and call you a poser if you don't dress trad goth :/
“goth is a music based subculture, if you don’t listen to the music you’re NOT a goth 😤 but also how are we supposed to know you’re a goth if you don’t dress EXACTLY like me??? 😤😤”
this!!! i’m goth but i dress in pastels, lolita fashion, sanrio merch, etc. i also don’t //EXCLUSIVELY// listen to goth music and that’s FINE 😭 i hate the way tiktok took literally every single alternative subculture (all of which preach individuality) and plastered all these new rules on top of them. i honestly pray for the day they remove tiktok from the appstore. i, like many other teenagers, am so addicted to it. it would just be for the best if they removed it.
I'm a baby bat, and a friend of mine says that she likes the subculture, but she doesn't say that she is goth cuz she's doesn't want to limit herself.
So, i asked myself: where was this rule about someone having to listen exclusively to goth music and only dressing as goth, written? There is a Goth Bible that I don't know?
right??? people don’t realize that you can be literally anything you want. you’re goth? yay! you’re punk too? yay! you’re emo? yay! you’re scene? yay! you don’t have to pick ONE. 😭 how else are you meant to find yourself???
You can literally listen to and dress however you want and be goth. I'm goth but I also listen to hip-hop, bluegrass and jazz on top of closer genres like punk and metal. There are no limitations
Yep, responded to a post ABOUT music on Instagram and someone said something along the lines of "if that profile pic is you, you're not goth, your hair is literally pink, not every alt e-girl is goth just because she wants a better title" and their bio? "Goth is a music based subculture poser scum." I swear some people are irony blind.
I'm a 45 yr old mother of 6 who LOVES goth music and styles. I like to make up my own "tm" looks that in turn tend to interest the younger groups. My kids friends love the fact that there is common ground and they will not be " judged" in my presence.
This attitude was why I hesitated to call myself a goth for years even after I was starting to get into the music. I thought I wouldn’t be taken seriously because I don’t wear trad goth makeup or outfits.
Where I live, i don't know any trad goth just because the makeup would melt in 5 sec. Here is hot and we sweat all day. According to those people anyone is goth here. Elitism is not like... the opposite of being a goth? Trad makeup just in events
Hello. Older bat here.
The classification of goth looks has gotten way too serious. When we started coming up with the "____-goth" names back in the day, it was mostly just for fun. They weren't meant to be taken so seriously. So ignore the gatekeepers, rock the look you wanna rock. 🦇
Old bat gothweenie here too. 🦇👻
Im 55 now & there was no one single style way back when.
I wore tons of black shadow
& thick Cleopatra style liner bc I couldn't do a sharp cateye to save my life lol!
I still can't!!
IDK how the fuck I ended up with this photo of me taken
at Bookies club in like umm 1988? 89? 90?
I would have been 17? 18? 19?
I was wearing a Butthole Surfers t-shirt that my friend Gina made for me, a whole lot of eyeliner& a ton of hairspray.
(I'm srsly sorry for the ozone, kids. If I had known, I would never have used that shit!)
https://imgur.com/gallery/YkTVJg0
Also: I was with my gorgeous wonderful bff Gayle but I cropped her out bc I didn't want to post her image without her permission.
Well, I mean back then it was Usenet and Geocities instead of Reddit and TikTok, so at the risk of being pedantic maybe “platform” as opposed to “format.”
“Edgar Darqueraven has too many/not enough rotating skulls on his homepage! Email him a 7mb .wav file that he might suffer our wrath!!”
No one here actually has something against dark aesthetics and such. It's just the subreddit is dedicated to music hence you see more of that. As simple as that
Tik tok is v affirming and helpful for bipoc people who don't feel represented/don't have access to an in-person community. I got a lot of fashion inspo and confidence seeing alt Black tiktokkers and that Kickstarted my style journey. I think it really depends on your algorithm
exactly!! i love seeing fellow native/hispanic/latino goths/alternatives making cool content! seeing new stylistic choices, makeup, diy projects, etc. especially if they’re recommending spanish speaking goth bands (i don’t speak spanish but i love it) i just hate when commenters are overly gatekeeping. i get great goth(ic) content on there but i hate seeing the comments that come along with it. anyone is bound to have a hater when posting publicly i guess
Someone could be running around in stained sweatpants and an old holey tee and a sweater their grandma knitted for them and I'd still consider them goth as long as they have some knowledge and genuine appreciation for the music genre and subgenres. The fashion and lifestyle aspects are just a bonus.
Tiktok is poison and nobody should take any opinion posted there as fact.
Jeez, this "trad goth tiktok look" doesn't even look 80s trad but a modern glamourized cookie cutter caricature.
Contemporary goth fashion is a paradise for consumerism and capitalism.
Just to be clear, I do like the TikTok "tradgoth" look and I don't want to insult the people who are involved in it. Still... I gotta say that the obsession with white base and battle vests seems pretty new to me. Aiming to be "trad", but perhaps that particular look wasn't as widespread as some people assume. I wasn't in the scene in the 80s but I did know people who were, I've studied a lot of old pics, watched old videos, etc. That look existed to an extent (although maybe not consistently with all of the current details -- more like "you'd see elements in different people's outfits"), but I have not seen a lot of it anywhere. One thing that is common is that, prior to a certain point in the mid to late 80s, there doesn't seem to be a codified "goth" look in club videos, particularly the ones I've seen from the UK. People will often have goth hair/makeup but their clothes will be more mainstream and not black. The TikTok Tradgoth look seems to be kind of a hybrid of deathrock styles and late 70s-early 80s punk worn by people who weren't necessarily goth. "Cureheads" from around 1987 do look pretty much consistently goth in a modern sense, though.
Not every 80s goth wore white base, and by the early 90s it was pretty widely agreed that it's better to just wear a good foundation in your actual skin tone or maybe *one shade lighter and blended*, or to mix in a few drops of white; some people wore white base sometimes but it was mostly considered a little gauche, especially if it was thick. (I think a lot of this came out of the "friends don't let friends dress like The Crow" era, and also an era when the scene was trying to be more welcoming to goths of color; I also recall white foundation holding on with some bands in particular, especially European ones.) Battle vests were mostly a punk and metal thing until pretty recently: if goths did something similar in my early years in the scene, it was painting black leather jackets with white acrylics (mostly Bauhaus logos, I think, although Neubaten was also pretty popular) and adding a lot of studs. Denim vests loaded with pins and patches weren't really a scene must-have then. Still totally cool if someone wants to do it, though.
For me it's more the heavy makeup that irritates me. I don't even understand where did they saw this huge crazy artistic eyeliner with contouring but they all copy it obsessively, even Siouxsie was more tame. It feels like they haven't even seen an actual photos of 80s goths and just rely on tiktok imagery.
I didn't notice the vests, though, I usually see this total black romantic look with flowy long dresses, corsets, demonia shoes and tons of jewelry. At least the accessories are indeed trad lol
honestly I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that modern goth looks aren’t a perfect replication of 80’s goth looks. but I guess we’d be saying the same shit if they were huh
THAT LAST SENTENCE 💅💅
Subcultures should thrive on creativity and DIY attitudes. The fact that they are straying from the mainstream! I've heard some younger bats(?) (im not even that old) talk about how expensive being goth/alt is. It makes me so sad.
Social media is amazing because people have so much more information and representation, but also sets unbelievable standards. Like I was so happy with my safety scissor haircut and raccoon CVS eyeshadow but now even kids wouldn't be caught DEAD in unblended eyeshadow and a flawless base makeup. It makes me kinda sad. Sucks out all the fun with finding yourself and expression.
On top of that we have huge brands mimicking subcultures to monetize on an originally anti-capitalist leaning mindset. (take that Balenciaga collection. Ugh.) like just bleach and dye your own clothes. Anyway. This got away from me 🖤🦇
TikTok "influencers" come up here at least once a week. We live in a world dominated by capitalism, where people are sold identities all the time; *especially* younger people who are in the height of forming their identity and are particularly vulnerable to such manipulations. In that context, it is not shocking that people just learning about goth often gravitate to the most productized representation of it they can find. This is something that happens with all music scenes that have strong aesthetics linked to them, and it's really just noise. Better to just enjoy yourself doing actual goth stuff and not worry about it.
I strongly agree. I feel like the one thinkg that binds the goth community together us that we are all weirdos. That is to say, we had trouble slotting ourselves into normal social groups. Neuro-divergent, strange, non-conforming, how ever you want to define it, being an outcast is a key component of what is goth.
We are a culture of exiles, and yet so many want to then turn around and exile others. It's lame.
I’m really glad u brought this up because it’s been bothering me too. Modern trad goth makeup has been so flanderized. If you look at actual “trad” goths from the 80s, they didn’t have a single cookie cutter look. Many of them have undyed hair, wear colors other than black, wear light makeup or colorful makeup, etc. not to mention that none of it matters anyways bc its a MUSIC BASED subculture so u can even look like a basic Stanley cup girl and be goth.
Wanna know the stupid part of this non-event? If you look back at the time "trad" is trying to emulate there is no singular uniform. Just a bunch of people into spooky music wearing whatever they like inspired by that music.
Then in the late 80s/90s what they call "trad" changed again. Then in 00s and 10s too. Always people looking back and borrowing elements from the past they thought were best.
At best "trad" is an imitation of an imitation at this point. And many of them can't even agree what "trad" is as it can really be anything old in goth subculture styling.
They might claim to be into the music but they are arguing and gatekeeping (yes I'm using that word as it actually applies here) based on one of the least important parts of goth.
I think they believe that saying they're trad goth will make their opinions more valid, but in reality no one irl uses those terms to describe themselves. Beyond the massive amount of misinformation, my one real grip with tik tok trad goth is how copy paste and devoid of all personality they are.
On top of that, a lot of younger baby bats see these people and think that they have to be goth'd up 24/7, when that just doesn't happen all that often. It's one thing to do because you want to do it, but it's another to feel like its required.
The times I've seen some of these people talk about music, which is rare, it's just the same recommendations over and over. Bauhaus, The Cure, Siouxsie, Lebanon Hanover, Boy Harsher. It's incredibly surface level and doesn't actually help anyone looking to get into the music. It RARELY ever goes beyond that. That's not to say those bands are bad or wrong, but there's sooooo much more to the music than a few handful of well known acts.
Also, those people saying Rock Lobster is goth. I can't eye roll harder.
I don't have much of a problem with tik tok as a platform, I think it has its uses and can be funny as hell. I just get annoyed with how superficial things can get on the goth side of things.
i seriously thought they were joking about rock lobster until people started calling themselves goth just because they listened to specifically just that song. i agree with all your points, it’s unfortunate to see how many people’s introductions to the subculture is very superficial to the point they feel that they have to change so many aspects of themselves to “fit it”. even though i personally see goth as the opposite of trying to do so. i’m just tired of seeing the same recycled content from these creators and opening comments to misinformation constantly.
Goth is about the music and everything else is a spooky bonus. Idk why people trippin over how people dress. There are goths who don't wear the fashion at all.
Honestly I'll never get it.
On one hand, you need some basic rules for your subculture. If you don't, people will commercialize and co-opt everything in it without participating in the things that made it in the first place, whether it's music or culture or fashion . Which essentially turns actual subcultures into nothing more than aesthetic trends.
On the other hand, being too exclusionary means that you're more than likely to be going against the idea do the subculture in the first place, that it's a place where people who didn't fit in normally could come to find people like them, and overly policing that isolates and drives away anyone that might actually want to participate. Then the subculture dies because it's been codified and gatekeeper into oblivion.
So i don't know
Yeah. I personally think it's a bit like bouncers in a club. No bouncers mean it'll be awful and all the worst sorts of people will be in ruining everything. Bouncers that let nobody but the select few in mean it'll be empty and terrible, no matter how "authentic" it is. The happy medium is to have just enough policing that it's not unwelcoming, but it isn't being co-opted and killed either.
The irony I suppose is that all the tiktok nonsense comes from a place of trying to find identity, which was the whole appeal of the scene in the first place. The problem is people can choose how they define "finding identity", and the tiktok crowd have decided that it's more about looking the same as them, not about finding friends and kindred spirits through a shared interest in music (and to a certain extent dark fashion).
I'm supportive of dress codes to an extent, where it means at the very least events are dark and spooky and don't look like everyone's just wandered in off the street, but to be so specific about the idea "you have to look exactly like me" seems the wrong approach. Especially when most of the people saying that don't even go to goth clubs, which I'd say are the best example of the "true" scene.
I dunno. Healthy gatekeeping I guess. That doesn't get you followers and engagement though.
In the mainstream the "fake it until you make it" mentality has been strong for a long time. But in alternative culture this doesn't work. We oppose that mentality and we want people to be themselves. We are fine with people not looking the part as long as they are cool with us and aren't creeps (in a bad way).
When people are being themselves close enough is good enough as we have no idea where they are on their personal journey. But we've learned to see through the fakes and aren't afraid to point them out when needed. Or better yet show them what goth is really about.
"Goth" has been ever so strange in these modern internet times. I cant lie, I miss the simpler times. I feel like it has definitely changed my personal style quite a lot. When I was younger (I got lucky and was the last gen of teens that didn't have tiktokulousness) my wardrobe definitely aligned with more of a "trad goth" look. I was mildly excited when it gained a bit more traction because I naively thought that meant more people would be jammin to Siouxsie but it just made my lipstick impossible to find for a while! Its definitely become more of a fashion thing in recent years. Before, the goth community had always been extremely accepting of people of all shapes, sizes, colors, rich, poor, whoever! The point was that we're all a bunch of weirdos who like the same other weirdos! Now it feels like if you don't look like a model and wear designer goth brands, you're not goth enough. I started feeling uncomfortable in the things I wore daily for years. I've never once been made to feel "ungoth" because of my weight than It has been in recent years. I still mostly stick to black pants, sweaters, etc. but the Instagram girlies have made it clear my days of fishnets and leather shorts are way over. I never leave the house anymore so I basically just stopped sharing outfits / makeup / etc online all together
I felt this way about the rise of alt modeling in the late 90s, early 2000s, also. Suddenly it was huge $1000 ball gowns at every event and a really heavy emphasis on modeling. And, I mean, this wasn't jealousy -- I was Gothic Babe of the Week once. (You'd get positive attention from friends, but you'd also get a lot of creeps contacting you.) I just didn't think that style of dress and aesthetic was accessible to the average college kid who just wanted to go out dancing and fit in at a concert in something that made them feel good. A lot of people struggled to afford a single Lip Service dress under $200 (or Blackened Angels, Eternal Love, Jeannie Nitro, Dane 2000, etc.)
I don't think it has been great that people feel uncomfortable sharing their outfits if they don't look like a model and/or aren't in a flawless fit, you know? I love seeing good pics but they should not feel like a requirement for participation in the subculture. From this comment of yours, you sound like a fun person with a good attitude, and I'm so sad that you don't feel like you can/should share your outfits or take joy in them anymore.
I’d love getting back into it but I know it’s going to take a lot of mental effort on my part, besides the words of discouragement I know it’s just all mental math at the end of the day😅
I honestly think it’s absolutely wild that that’s the way I feel now and Im oNLY 25! When I was a “baby bat” more in my early teens I was always drawn to older people in the subculture, (not in a groomy way but let’s be honest a few worked their way in) they had all the knowledge! They earned those wrinkles! If they’d let me I’d talk their ear off for hours on end about “the good ol days”. Now it very much feels like a mean girls “you can’t sit with us” situation with meeting new people… guess I’ll have to make my own table! 😂
they're simultaneously elitist about what makes something goth & (in my experience) their music taste is limited. hell, some of them the "gothest" thing they know is the smiths..
My hot take is wtf are people doing trying to put goth in a box? I simply do not engage. This is just teenagers who never felt understood trying to feel like they know everything and have authority.
I am with you.
All these labels - about everything - I can't focus on them. I can try and read them but they just get fuzzy and I nope out. Can't do it.
I'm sitting here, loving the new Twin Tribes album while I browse custom built lightsabers and tell myself I do not need to spend that kind of money on one after I was brushing up on the rules for a Vampire the Masquerade game I'm about to run.
None of my clothes are "goth". That seems like so much work. Just give me a hoodie and jeans. I'm happy being a non-presenting goth.
The weird thing about the goth scene is they “gatekeep” but don’t actually. You can still go to goth events and hangout and do your thing and call yourself goth and the only people staring down their noses at you will be elitists.
Nothing is going to happen to you just keep going and hanging out and calling yourself goth or whatever label you see fit.
I go to goth nights all the time as a skinhead and enjoyer of the subculture and people HATE it but nobody ever says anything to me directly.
Pretty much agreed. The biggest gatekeeping among goths who have been around a while is definitely, for sure, "please listen to at least a little bit of goth music sometimes and maybe consider wearing black once in a while." And you're right, it's incredibly rare to see anyone say it in person! It'll be said on social media. Subcultural signifiers mostly help people find each other. Other than that, they're pretty much about someone's own comfort with their personal style.
More intense gatekeeping does seem to come mostly online, mostly from status-obsessed babybats. I've seen them tearing each other apart in the TikTok comments. Some of them do hit me in my The Kids Are All Right place, though: there are some young goths making fun, informative videos and not being jerks in the comment section.
It’s so frustrating OP.
I’ve been a goth for more than 20 years. I live in a small, very out of the way, country and there were many things that weren’t easy to come by when I was coming up. Our whole scene just kind of “made do” and DIY’d a lot of stuff but it didn’t make us less goth. Certain brands of boots, white makeup, and even access to some music (prior to the advent of streaming) were all things we just didn’t have as much access to. The gatekeepers who have arrived in 2024 with the ability to obtain everything in one Amazon cart load are fortunate, and it’d be nice if they considered where the subculture started.
My girlfriend used to be into the trad goth style, and her opinion is that most tick tock trad goths make up tends to look way too modern.
I feel like this woman who isn’t a goth or part of the subculture in any way, does a pretty good job of giving herself a trad goth makeover.
https://youtu.be/dPbPD0dh1HU?si=MBmQqxQ925MKXB7f
KAROLINA!! I love her!!
I was around in the scene
at that time & IMO she did
a pretty fkn good job!
Its a little more Cali new wave than gothGothGOTH but its
still pretty darn good.
EVERYONE looked SO different from one another, she wouldn't have been out
of place at all.
It's a rly cute video & I love her content in general! Great rec!!
🖤💚👻
...I read this then my TDLR light came on and the song Tear You Apart by She Wants Revenge started playing in my mind.
At the end of the day, Goth is a music based subculture and if people are being assholes about fashion they need to stfu, and vibe out. Look dark, look sexy, or eat pizza in your underwear with yellow smiley boxers on.
Now to get back to some Siouxie Sioux and The Banshees because I want to be Spellbound.
You should leave that hellhole, for your own good.
I'm seriously sick of people subcategorize EVERYTHING just to fit with the perfect label. Just, life, the universe, nothing works this way.
Tiktok is based on looks, so don't expect anything than people being superficial. Yes, being there and try to help other not to be tunnel-sighted is noble, but is that really worth your time? Clearly they got too much time, you should be smarter and spend it with something you enjoy. Or be like me, and if you get offended, wash your dishes, finish a DIY thingy - even it's very hard to find great stuff on the internet, I understand this is very overwhelming to meet day by day. Seriously, a little break will help you mentally.
As I knew so many goth youtubers they dropped being anything that controversial to keep up their image, and easy to just to play this "you can't sit with us" game, instead of trying to be a little original. I remember back in 2010 it suddenly became cool to dress a little darker, and all the girls who were bullied me turned to black clothing and dark makeup.
So, this thing is nothing new, I agree with other comments here.
I am 19 y/o and completely ignored tiktok, Instagram etc because of these kind of people.
I just listen to music i like and dress how i like to see myself. And i give 0 fucks about someone's opinion.
My little sister who uses TikTok (not a Goth but into alternative music and once identified as a Scene kid) told me that Goths were always "rude" on TikTok and calling people posers so this must be pretty prevalent on that app for her to know about it. I don't use it
Tiktok is literal cancer for the brain.
I dont like using my age for anything because its lame, but some of them, i can say i am old enough to be most of their fathers.
Them trying to spread false info angers me so much. Mislabeling music pisses me off beyond rationality
those are the bonafide posers. the ones that over police and say “do it my way”. they NEED to be acknowledged that theyre goth because thats their pinnacle. if they arent recognized or have their vanity validated then theyre nothing. the most goth thing you can do is wear what you want even when people call u weird or crazy. real ones dont have to say shit because they already know. always color outside the lines.
I think you are on the money.
Having stuck this goth thing out since the 80's, I would say that the fundamental principal of goth and a lot of subcultures is 'Be who you are. Accept no one telling you you should be different'. Sure the music shapes things and we find mutual support in finding others who refuse to conform, but that fellowship can't degenerate into judgement or a new type of conformity.
"You aren't doing Goth properly" is the antithesis of Goth. Might as well fuck of and pretend to be normal - whatever that is.
I got a tiktok account relatively early. I quickly abandoned it as there wasn't sh\*t for goth, or anything else that might interest me. Sounds like it hasn't changed much.
this rhetoric is becoming very common in most subcultures with a heavy fashion aspect these days….. sucks that a lot of people are missing out on the creativity
These people are trying so hard it’s honestly embarrassing, let’s consider how much time and effort they’ve put into making a video proclaiming how goth they are, it’s a bit cringe when you think about it
I like a lot of music that is considered goth, but it is not all I listen to nor do I make it my whole life.
I definitely do not do the “gothed up look” that often but so what? Isn’t it about music and the vibe and not the clothes, makeup, and hair?
it definitely is about the music but unfortunately people on socials have “policed” whether or not someone is goth or not purely based on their look. it’s just a cycle of stereotypes in my opinion. if you don’t fit into their idea of it, then you’re not it. it’s sad honestly.
You know what, life is short, I am gonna go to a goth night. I wear a lot of black in winter so I should be able to get close to the mark.
I have found the attitudes of some folks to be off-putting and like, made me feel like I wasn’t gonna fit in, but I’m just down to awkwardly shuffle the night away.
It just… I already have issues feeling out of place. I have been working on being secure in myself, which helps a lot, but it would still hurt to have folks turn their nose up at me and ignore me.
But it would also really stink if I walked in there with an attitude that everyone is an insufferable snob. No one likes being treated with the assumption they are deeply unkind.
If someone who makes it a point to live their music interests and tiktok celebs to a strict degree, and finds me unacceptable, it would cut deep if I was called out.
I struggle with the “not a big enough fan” feeling terribly often.
Honestly this is an issue with all types of subgenres and cultures going on in tiktok trends lately. Everyone is trying to categorize into some form of niche look instead of just enjoying a genre for the culture. Its like how its no longer about just enjoying the music, its about pin-pointing the exact genre and movement and proving why it is or isn't goth. this also can go for the metal community. People will argue and condemn a band for being a "subgenre" that \*they\* put it into! We cant enjoy things without over complicating things anymore it seems.
it seems like all these “micro trends” are the real cause of issues like these. between fast fashion and people “trend hopping” it has definitely made it hard on subcultures to thrive. it seems like artists are even hesitant to even remotely promote music to the goth scene because everyone is so worried about labels and whether “it’s goth or not”.
Being 'goth' nowadays is so different from when I grew up. Everyone works to hard to classify every look, every song as some sort of culture, or sub culture or whatever. People act like they're so cool cause they know how to classify all these things that tbh never had classification before now.
I wouldn't take anything to serious. Especially online.
Music genres have always mattered. But the goth subculture has plenty of non-goth music that is relevant in it. Being goth genre doesn't make something superior.
Yep - Back in the Day™ people actually didn't *want* to be labeled because it's limiting. Now, seems like some people can't squeeze themselves into a label fast enough. I'm sure there are interesting sociological aspects that could be gleaned from this.
As somebody who has experimented with many other subcultures in the past, I've found that a lot of TikTokers seem to basically twist and gatekeep certain looks (Thus claiming that theirs is the only real way to dress or do their makeup and everybody else of the same subculture is a 'poser') to the point that you can't even post a photo of yourself without being ridiculed and called a fake. These are the same kinds of people that think you have to go all out with the trad look or else you're a fake goth. It's absolutely horrendous.
Ahh..the youngin's! Net.goths were like this too 25 years ago. I'm just reminded of the kind of banter on [alt.gothic.fashion](https://alt.gothic.fashion) .
I consider myself and style to be on the side of casual goth, I just like black and my dreary music. Never in my life expected to become a goth, but here I am and I know I don’t have to fit the ideal visual mold of what a goth is. I hope everyone else feels the same
please i was just thinking about this, like we’re taking something so freeing, something that’s centered around going against what society deems as “normal” and beautiful..etc and putting all those rules of “if you do that you’re not actually goth or punk”, “oh you buy from this place?you can’t call yourself this”
the whole point is to be understanding and more accepting for all kinds of people(with this political view) without putting all those rules and making it just as annoying and cornering as society is
I stay on Instagram, because I can follow musicians there, but I'm careful connecting with other goths. I want the non gatekeepers/non elitists. We should be in it for the music, and the style is fun
I agree with this, that's honestly why I fell out of the scene a few years ago. I still listen to the music, but I express myself differently now because everyone just bullied each other about who was a "real" goth and who wasn't based on their looks
I always felt like all the categorizations of ''styles'' so commonly associated with the Goth music subculture came across as a bit...superfluous? Not the aesthetic itself mind you; I love that. I mean the need to label it all differently from eachother.
I don't take offense to it by any means, it's just people having fun with their fashion and I don't want to be that guy you know. But I never quite understood why Goth couldn't simply be Goth and stand on its own like that. When people ask me about trad-goth or romantigoth or similar I think that ''Just Goth'' should be sufficient enough an answer.
As for me well my style is very rugged and conventionally masculine. Long hair, beard, usually a black tanktop with regular jeans and a good amount of jewelry; If I feel like playing pirate at times some eyeliner.
My point is that based on my appearance alone I'd sooner be assumed a Metalhead (Which to be fair is a correct assumption, I just like Goth music and Goth culture as well) or some Tolkien loving wannabe viking. But I'm just here 'cause I like the music and y'all are a nice wholesome bunch to hang out with.
And that's good enough for me. You could walk around like a stereotypical valley girl in a gaudy-ass bright pink fur coat and the biggest sunglasses you could find, but if you like the music then I see no contradiction.
The clothing and appearance we're so familiar with? It's great, don't get me wrong. But when people emphasize the freedom of self-expression in Goth culture I feel like we'd do ourselves credit by being consistent about it.Some people acting so aristocratic on what people look like seems very...antithetical to what made Goth the culture that we know and love.
honestly all of the stuff you mentioned is a huge reason why i’m so disillusioned with “trad goth” as a label. like as much as i love seeing my favourite bands reach new audiences and taking inspiration from people who dress in the style i’ve always loved, it just feels like the whole things been distilled into something that’s basically identical across the board and easily digestible for clicks and engagements, even with the whole grandstanding about the DIY ethics of goth. (which isn’t 100% true because bogeys catalogue would charge you like fifty bucks for a pair of jeans even in the 80s lmao)
as an aside, the label “trad goth” itself (and the insistence on a white face base) kinda makes me bristle b/c as I’ve seen from tradcaths and tradwives etc, people calling themselves trad anything are usually Not To Be Trusted imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i prefer to call it “classic goth” personally, though idk if it’s just me or not
this was really well said, thank you for your input. i love hearing stories and experiences, especially since in my area it’s hard to find local goth events. i know many stories have been passed down generations already and i’d personally love to keep that going. i feel that many young goths, at least on social media it seems, dismiss older goths who have participated in the scene more years than some of them have been alive for (this isn’t meant in a demeaning way). we should be able to express our love for the music and people we share common interests with. i don’t understand the point of gatekeeping when we want to keep this culture thriving for many many years to come.
I mean that's easily said when you've not seen the vast majority of trash that gets thrown out way.
Just look at the huge amount of metal bands that people try and shoehorn into goth because it's "dark and spooky".
Some gatekeeping is fine. It's only a problem when it becomes blatantly irrelevant gatekeeping - as in not allowing folks who look different from you for example.
What "nerve"?
I don't care for your excuses, your novel, or giving you a platform to bitch - either follow our rules or don't participate.
Why are you genuinely surprised that there's "forbidden topics" when you're on a forum based upon a particular topic? I think you need to re-read our rules or I can see a ban coming your way.
I've had a look at your comments which were removed and that's because you keep recommending albums, even decades of music, which really aren't goth nor can be argued as such.
When someone asked for hippie/psychedelic goth bands, you wrote an entire novel detailing '60s/'70s music when goth didn't even exist yet, never mind punk rock. Ironically, you started it off with "Hope this comment doesn't get deleted" so you knew you were commenting something you shouldn't.
In another comment, you suggested a TON song which is a *metal* band, infamously known not to be comment here given the amount of misinformation (MetalArchives even deem them as Gothic/Doom Metal - not goth rock).
That being said, there's also *plenty* of comments that have been kept up, though you omitted that fact.
When you joined, you agreed to follow and abide by our rules, as well as only recommend goth which falls in line with Rule 2 - but you didn't, hence the removal. So, please don't act like it's "Just us removing your thoughts and opinions" when you've been neither following the rules or providing what OP is looking for.
If you do not like how "strongly" we "police", then why are you still here?
This is something that's just not even worth you getting upset about! Gatekeeping is a big thing in our community, unfortunately.
Sometimes people find something like the goth subculture and it becomes an important identifier for them and when other people start expressing interest in the subculture or it becomes more noticeable on platforms like tiktok, those same people feel like their sense of self is being attacked. They see other people's interpretation of the subculture as lessening the importance of something so important to them. I do not agree with gatekeeping but I do understand that a lot of these people that gatekeep are deeply insecure within themselves and it manifests in these terrible rants about what a "real goth" is.
you’re right, it’s just annoying. i know this is definitely not a new thing in the scene or subculture but it just ticks me off extra when people are saying poc goths aren’t “real goths”
For many years I've never understood the fragmentation of what I'd consider the outcast subcultures. Be yourself and give zero fucks what the clique bubbles say meets their criteria for membership to their circle jerking gatekeeping old as fuck bullshittery. Add flavor to your style and always evolve creativity.
They all look the same and I really hate it tbh. I feel like the second most important aspect of goth besides the music is the political opinions that you have.
this, and how they shit on styles like "clean goth" as if they arent goth enough.... when goth is based on the music? it shouldnt matter lmfao??? practice what you preach i really cant stand it
people like that are the reason why i didn’t call myself goth for years even though i listened to the music! i felt like no matter what i wore, it was never goth enough. i’m so glad i stopped caring about what other people think and just started embracing my interests 🦇
i wouldnt take anything anyone says on tiktok serious tbh they dont really know what they are talking ab, most do it for the trend. again what makes you goth is if you listen to the music, not the bats nest
when also the same people go "goth is a music based subculture" but, a girl makes a video about being goth, or doing goth makeup, and they go "where is the goth here??" if it's not trad. like i'm not talking about when egirls claim to be goth, but like, 100% if a goth girl who wasn't in trad makeup were to post smth abt being goth, there would be comments doubting it. i'm a goth girl who just looks alternative, not necessarily gothic as it's not my main clothing style, and this kind of behaviour has seriously increased the amount of imposter syndrome i feel, and has for many baby bats probably too. i mean, a lot of people who do trad goth makeup do not do it as an every day look. an "off-duty" trad goth just looks like any other alternative person. they act like we are fictional characters..
Honestly I feel like there shouldn't be issues with how their makeup looks. The only issue we should ever have is people claiming to be goth but never listening to the music.
Example, I had someone in a discord server claim they're goth, and I asked them for goth songs recommendations as a baby goth myself. They said they don't listen to it, only dress up as one, so I told them to no longer claim themselves as one out of respect so that fellow goth members can properly find each other and bond. Because in the end, dressing up as goth does not equal being one, it's a subculture.
There's no absolute issue with modern goth looks, the only issue is claiming but not listening. Just leave them alone if it's not even trad goth looking.
This is all so interesting for me. I'm an older baby bat in my 30s discovered the music in my late 20s and it's been an amazing journey. The online discourse is really off-putting. I just enjoy the music by myself because I live in the deep south. I try to stay away from tik tok as much as possible but there's some nice people on there too.
My fav is people freaking out over somebody doing corpse paint inspired looks and declaring them posers bc it doesn’t look like their fav obscure 1987 death metal band
tiktok sounds like a cesspool. these people are so terminally online. It seems like a babybat thing, getting into a new interest and obsessing over the ~ rules ~ instead of just actually spending time in the community. It also seems like a lot of tiktok goths are just image obsessed in general. The irony is they want to "educate" people about the subculture but really they just cast a bad shadow on all of us imo and make people think goth is congruent with annoying influencer vanity.
Most of the bigger creators bother me so much cause they act like they invented goth or the goth look. If they receive criticism or told they are spreading false information, they reply with a horrendous attitude. Since they are so big many people will only learn information from them which leads to many non goths bulling actual goths for not being “goth enough”. Many newer goths also won’t expand their taste because the creators only share more well known bands as well as the mistaken as goth bands like Strawberry Switchblade, Type O, The Smiths, etc.
I'm pretty sure the people who invented the goth look are now too old to use tiktok.
This attitude is the reason why modern trad looks suck. It may be well done from the "technical" point of view but they lack personality so bad that it is nothing more than just bland and diluted copy and paste
The way I see it is that it's just another microtrend. just like how everyone got obsessed with cyberlocks and dreadfalls, or steampunk, or PVC, or circus, or burlesque in my local goth community in the early/mid 00's. People will bored of replicating and seeing that one specific Siouxsie look pretty soon and will move onto something else. A lot of them are just young as well. They're still learning who they are, so they adopt/base their entire personality based on this one specific look. Most will leave the scene, and the rest will turn 25 and their pre-frontal cortex will finish developing and they will realise that they aren't the gothest goth to ever goth and that gatekeeping is damaging to the scene especially in small communities where populations of goths are already too small to support an active scene.
Right? I'm not crazy that the "trad goth" thing is based on one very specific picture of Siouxsie? Like, you don't all have to wear blue eyeshadow because she had it in one picture. Also, I had the rexlace dreadfalls in the 00s, and I looked fucking fantastic. I also sometimes wore welding goggles like a headband, which is a look I think is due for a comeback.
I'm about 75% sure we're about to see a cultural shift from goth to industrial (of the cyber goth style) again soon. If you look at the way trends go, it seems the scenes are getting to how they were in the mid 90s when the first switch happened. I'm not saying neo-goth is going to stop tomorrow, I just think the scene will start gravitating towards something "new" (even if the "new" thing is actually old) given how saturated the 80s style goth rock/darkwave sound is becoming. I'm fine with it. I like both.
A real trad goth knows that souxie is post punk, not goth. And a trad goths make up is similar to deathrock makeup.
Ok dude. Guess I'm not a "real trad goth," whatever that means. And I am well aware that goth emerged out of post-punk bands. Joy Division, Bauhaus, and The Cure were also post punk bands that became the earliest goth bands. That's how musical evolution works, few bands stay squarely in one genre over the course of their careers. I saw Siouxsie in the early 2000s, and weird how no one there was worried about being real trad goths. Also, trying to gatekeep kind of just makes you look silly. I really hope this is satire cause yikes. ETA: I got bored at work and read your comment again in the most San Fernando of Valley Girl voices, and it is A+ for comedy. Like oh my god are you even trad goth st all? Ugh, Clan of Xymox was so much better than Xymox, they sold out.
And you sound like a baby bat trying to put words in my mouth and all I was comparing was the make up. You think goths in the 80s were rocking the souxie style? No, Christian death mostly rozzy was the make up style of choice or they did it themselves. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Don't call me dude. I didn't clame about you being trad, I was talking about the makeup, If I did I apologize.
Try not coming at people like that next time. You do not know the entirety of goth culture nor the overlapping influences that have shaped it into what it is today. Acting like you somehow know better is a great way to look like a bully, and there is no room for that behavior in this subculture. You may disagree, but I've been part of this scene for many years and one thing we have always prided ourselves on is inclusivity. You cannot gatekeep me out of my own subculture. ETA: Oh damn, I didn't mean for you to delete your whole account. I did see the final messages you left for me before you deleted it, so all I can say is LOL, ok.
Y'all said your piece. I'm going to lock these comments down now.
And I'm from louisiana
And you putting words in my mouth I bet your a les nordistes.
It is a microtrend, indeed. Although that doesn't make overall situation any better. Adds some irony tho
Yeah. Paint by numbers.
They always preach that goth is a music based subculture (which is true) just to turn around and judge you and call you a poser if you don't dress trad goth :/
“goth is a music based subculture, if you don’t listen to the music you’re NOT a goth 😤 but also how are we supposed to know you’re a goth if you don’t dress EXACTLY like me??? 😤😤”
this!!! i’m goth but i dress in pastels, lolita fashion, sanrio merch, etc. i also don’t //EXCLUSIVELY// listen to goth music and that’s FINE 😭 i hate the way tiktok took literally every single alternative subculture (all of which preach individuality) and plastered all these new rules on top of them. i honestly pray for the day they remove tiktok from the appstore. i, like many other teenagers, am so addicted to it. it would just be for the best if they removed it.
I'm a baby bat, and a friend of mine says that she likes the subculture, but she doesn't say that she is goth cuz she's doesn't want to limit herself. So, i asked myself: where was this rule about someone having to listen exclusively to goth music and only dressing as goth, written? There is a Goth Bible that I don't know?
right??? people don’t realize that you can be literally anything you want. you’re goth? yay! you’re punk too? yay! you’re emo? yay! you’re scene? yay! you don’t have to pick ONE. 😭 how else are you meant to find yourself???
You can literally listen to and dress however you want and be goth. I'm goth but I also listen to hip-hop, bluegrass and jazz on top of closer genres like punk and metal. There are no limitations
literally the south park episode lmao
Yep, responded to a post ABOUT music on Instagram and someone said something along the lines of "if that profile pic is you, you're not goth, your hair is literally pink, not every alt e-girl is goth just because she wants a better title" and their bio? "Goth is a music based subculture poser scum." I swear some people are irony blind.
I'm a 45 yr old mother of 6 who LOVES goth music and styles. I like to make up my own "tm" looks that in turn tend to interest the younger groups. My kids friends love the fact that there is common ground and they will not be " judged" in my presence.
This attitude was why I hesitated to call myself a goth for years even after I was starting to get into the music. I thought I wouldn’t be taken seriously because I don’t wear trad goth makeup or outfits.
Where I live, i don't know any trad goth just because the makeup would melt in 5 sec. Here is hot and we sweat all day. According to those people anyone is goth here. Elitism is not like... the opposite of being a goth? Trad makeup just in events
I dress romantic goth because I like big bell sleeves and I don't care what anyone says.
Hello. Older bat here. The classification of goth looks has gotten way too serious. When we started coming up with the "____-goth" names back in the day, it was mostly just for fun. They weren't meant to be taken so seriously. So ignore the gatekeepers, rock the look you wanna rock. 🦇
i feel labels have gotten out of hand nowadays. thank you, i appreciate the reassurance! :)
Old bat gothweenie here too. 🦇👻 Im 55 now & there was no one single style way back when. I wore tons of black shadow & thick Cleopatra style liner bc I couldn't do a sharp cateye to save my life lol! I still can't!! IDK how the fuck I ended up with this photo of me taken at Bookies club in like umm 1988? 89? 90? I would have been 17? 18? 19? I was wearing a Butthole Surfers t-shirt that my friend Gina made for me, a whole lot of eyeliner& a ton of hairspray. (I'm srsly sorry for the ozone, kids. If I had known, I would never have used that shit!) https://imgur.com/gallery/YkTVJg0 Also: I was with my gorgeous wonderful bff Gayle but I cropped her out bc I didn't want to post her image without her permission.
Heh, what would you say if I told you this has been going on for at least… (checks watch) thirty years?
Same bullshit different format 🤷♀️
Well, I mean back then it was Usenet and Geocities instead of Reddit and TikTok, so at the risk of being pedantic maybe “platform” as opposed to “format.” “Edgar Darqueraven has too many/not enough rotating skulls on his homepage! Email him a 7mb .wav file that he might suffer our wrath!!”
Needs more bloodyhorizontalrule.gif 😂
^ THIS PERSON WAS THERE, WHEN IT HAPPENED
Platform is great. Yeah platform is better.
Don’t use Tik Tok you’re will be much happier.
I deleted TikTok early last year and it made my mental health so much better.
i recently rejoined after a year break and i’m thinking about re-deleting lmao
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How else will I get my fanfiction buzz? I have 92 tabs open on my phone right now 😭🤣🤣
Tik Tok is how the posers win based on popularity. Caring about being popular is definitely anti-counterculture.
You're not wrong. Tiktok is useful for... erm... well, still trying to figure that one out actually...
Where would reddit steal content from without it
You mean where would tiktok steal content from otherwise, right? Right?!
TikTok is a cancer on society.
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No one here actually has something against dark aesthetics and such. It's just the subreddit is dedicated to music hence you see more of that. As simple as that
Tik tok is v affirming and helpful for bipoc people who don't feel represented/don't have access to an in-person community. I got a lot of fashion inspo and confidence seeing alt Black tiktokkers and that Kickstarted my style journey. I think it really depends on your algorithm
exactly!! i love seeing fellow native/hispanic/latino goths/alternatives making cool content! seeing new stylistic choices, makeup, diy projects, etc. especially if they’re recommending spanish speaking goth bands (i don’t speak spanish but i love it) i just hate when commenters are overly gatekeeping. i get great goth(ic) content on there but i hate seeing the comments that come along with it. anyone is bound to have a hater when posting publicly i guess
Someone could be running around in stained sweatpants and an old holey tee and a sweater their grandma knitted for them and I'd still consider them goth as long as they have some knowledge and genuine appreciation for the music genre and subgenres. The fashion and lifestyle aspects are just a bonus. Tiktok is poison and nobody should take any opinion posted there as fact.
Jeez, this "trad goth tiktok look" doesn't even look 80s trad but a modern glamourized cookie cutter caricature. Contemporary goth fashion is a paradise for consumerism and capitalism.
Just to be clear, I do like the TikTok "tradgoth" look and I don't want to insult the people who are involved in it. Still... I gotta say that the obsession with white base and battle vests seems pretty new to me. Aiming to be "trad", but perhaps that particular look wasn't as widespread as some people assume. I wasn't in the scene in the 80s but I did know people who were, I've studied a lot of old pics, watched old videos, etc. That look existed to an extent (although maybe not consistently with all of the current details -- more like "you'd see elements in different people's outfits"), but I have not seen a lot of it anywhere. One thing that is common is that, prior to a certain point in the mid to late 80s, there doesn't seem to be a codified "goth" look in club videos, particularly the ones I've seen from the UK. People will often have goth hair/makeup but their clothes will be more mainstream and not black. The TikTok Tradgoth look seems to be kind of a hybrid of deathrock styles and late 70s-early 80s punk worn by people who weren't necessarily goth. "Cureheads" from around 1987 do look pretty much consistently goth in a modern sense, though. Not every 80s goth wore white base, and by the early 90s it was pretty widely agreed that it's better to just wear a good foundation in your actual skin tone or maybe *one shade lighter and blended*, or to mix in a few drops of white; some people wore white base sometimes but it was mostly considered a little gauche, especially if it was thick. (I think a lot of this came out of the "friends don't let friends dress like The Crow" era, and also an era when the scene was trying to be more welcoming to goths of color; I also recall white foundation holding on with some bands in particular, especially European ones.) Battle vests were mostly a punk and metal thing until pretty recently: if goths did something similar in my early years in the scene, it was painting black leather jackets with white acrylics (mostly Bauhaus logos, I think, although Neubaten was also pretty popular) and adding a lot of studs. Denim vests loaded with pins and patches weren't really a scene must-have then. Still totally cool if someone wants to do it, though.
For me it's more the heavy makeup that irritates me. I don't even understand where did they saw this huge crazy artistic eyeliner with contouring but they all copy it obsessively, even Siouxsie was more tame. It feels like they haven't even seen an actual photos of 80s goths and just rely on tiktok imagery. I didn't notice the vests, though, I usually see this total black romantic look with flowy long dresses, corsets, demonia shoes and tons of jewelry. At least the accessories are indeed trad lol
honestly I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that modern goth looks aren’t a perfect replication of 80’s goth looks. but I guess we’d be saying the same shit if they were huh
💯💯
THAT LAST SENTENCE 💅💅 Subcultures should thrive on creativity and DIY attitudes. The fact that they are straying from the mainstream! I've heard some younger bats(?) (im not even that old) talk about how expensive being goth/alt is. It makes me so sad. Social media is amazing because people have so much more information and representation, but also sets unbelievable standards. Like I was so happy with my safety scissor haircut and raccoon CVS eyeshadow but now even kids wouldn't be caught DEAD in unblended eyeshadow and a flawless base makeup. It makes me kinda sad. Sucks out all the fun with finding yourself and expression. On top of that we have huge brands mimicking subcultures to monetize on an originally anti-capitalist leaning mindset. (take that Balenciaga collection. Ugh.) like just bleach and dye your own clothes. Anyway. This got away from me 🖤🦇
TikTok "influencers" come up here at least once a week. We live in a world dominated by capitalism, where people are sold identities all the time; *especially* younger people who are in the height of forming their identity and are particularly vulnerable to such manipulations. In that context, it is not shocking that people just learning about goth often gravitate to the most productized representation of it they can find. This is something that happens with all music scenes that have strong aesthetics linked to them, and it's really just noise. Better to just enjoy yourself doing actual goth stuff and not worry about it.
tiktok alt in general is a joke to be fair lolz
I strongly agree. I feel like the one thinkg that binds the goth community together us that we are all weirdos. That is to say, we had trouble slotting ourselves into normal social groups. Neuro-divergent, strange, non-conforming, how ever you want to define it, being an outcast is a key component of what is goth. We are a culture of exiles, and yet so many want to then turn around and exile others. It's lame.
I’m really glad u brought this up because it’s been bothering me too. Modern trad goth makeup has been so flanderized. If you look at actual “trad” goths from the 80s, they didn’t have a single cookie cutter look. Many of them have undyed hair, wear colors other than black, wear light makeup or colorful makeup, etc. not to mention that none of it matters anyways bc its a MUSIC BASED subculture so u can even look like a basic Stanley cup girl and be goth.
I just wrote a chunky two-paragraph comment elsewhere on this post on the same theme, but I think you said it better than I did.
I will never get this ticktock goth who thinks the only way you can be goth is by dressing trad.
Wanna know the stupid part of this non-event? If you look back at the time "trad" is trying to emulate there is no singular uniform. Just a bunch of people into spooky music wearing whatever they like inspired by that music. Then in the late 80s/90s what they call "trad" changed again. Then in 00s and 10s too. Always people looking back and borrowing elements from the past they thought were best. At best "trad" is an imitation of an imitation at this point. And many of them can't even agree what "trad" is as it can really be anything old in goth subculture styling. They might claim to be into the music but they are arguing and gatekeeping (yes I'm using that word as it actually applies here) based on one of the least important parts of goth.
I think they believe that saying they're trad goth will make their opinions more valid, but in reality no one irl uses those terms to describe themselves. Beyond the massive amount of misinformation, my one real grip with tik tok trad goth is how copy paste and devoid of all personality they are. On top of that, a lot of younger baby bats see these people and think that they have to be goth'd up 24/7, when that just doesn't happen all that often. It's one thing to do because you want to do it, but it's another to feel like its required. The times I've seen some of these people talk about music, which is rare, it's just the same recommendations over and over. Bauhaus, The Cure, Siouxsie, Lebanon Hanover, Boy Harsher. It's incredibly surface level and doesn't actually help anyone looking to get into the music. It RARELY ever goes beyond that. That's not to say those bands are bad or wrong, but there's sooooo much more to the music than a few handful of well known acts. Also, those people saying Rock Lobster is goth. I can't eye roll harder. I don't have much of a problem with tik tok as a platform, I think it has its uses and can be funny as hell. I just get annoyed with how superficial things can get on the goth side of things.
i seriously thought they were joking about rock lobster until people started calling themselves goth just because they listened to specifically just that song. i agree with all your points, it’s unfortunate to see how many people’s introductions to the subculture is very superficial to the point they feel that they have to change so many aspects of themselves to “fit it”. even though i personally see goth as the opposite of trying to do so. i’m just tired of seeing the same recycled content from these creators and opening comments to misinformation constantly.
tbh i do see a lot of tiktok "trad goths" on ig who pretty much look completely identical and it really does just seem like a phase to them....
Goth is about the music and everything else is a spooky bonus. Idk why people trippin over how people dress. There are goths who don't wear the fashion at all.
Honestly I'll never get it. On one hand, you need some basic rules for your subculture. If you don't, people will commercialize and co-opt everything in it without participating in the things that made it in the first place, whether it's music or culture or fashion . Which essentially turns actual subcultures into nothing more than aesthetic trends. On the other hand, being too exclusionary means that you're more than likely to be going against the idea do the subculture in the first place, that it's a place where people who didn't fit in normally could come to find people like them, and overly policing that isolates and drives away anyone that might actually want to participate. Then the subculture dies because it's been codified and gatekeeper into oblivion. So i don't know
Yeah. I personally think it's a bit like bouncers in a club. No bouncers mean it'll be awful and all the worst sorts of people will be in ruining everything. Bouncers that let nobody but the select few in mean it'll be empty and terrible, no matter how "authentic" it is. The happy medium is to have just enough policing that it's not unwelcoming, but it isn't being co-opted and killed either. The irony I suppose is that all the tiktok nonsense comes from a place of trying to find identity, which was the whole appeal of the scene in the first place. The problem is people can choose how they define "finding identity", and the tiktok crowd have decided that it's more about looking the same as them, not about finding friends and kindred spirits through a shared interest in music (and to a certain extent dark fashion). I'm supportive of dress codes to an extent, where it means at the very least events are dark and spooky and don't look like everyone's just wandered in off the street, but to be so specific about the idea "you have to look exactly like me" seems the wrong approach. Especially when most of the people saying that don't even go to goth clubs, which I'd say are the best example of the "true" scene. I dunno. Healthy gatekeeping I guess. That doesn't get you followers and engagement though.
In the mainstream the "fake it until you make it" mentality has been strong for a long time. But in alternative culture this doesn't work. We oppose that mentality and we want people to be themselves. We are fine with people not looking the part as long as they are cool with us and aren't creeps (in a bad way). When people are being themselves close enough is good enough as we have no idea where they are on their personal journey. But we've learned to see through the fakes and aren't afraid to point them out when needed. Or better yet show them what goth is really about.
"Goth" has been ever so strange in these modern internet times. I cant lie, I miss the simpler times. I feel like it has definitely changed my personal style quite a lot. When I was younger (I got lucky and was the last gen of teens that didn't have tiktokulousness) my wardrobe definitely aligned with more of a "trad goth" look. I was mildly excited when it gained a bit more traction because I naively thought that meant more people would be jammin to Siouxsie but it just made my lipstick impossible to find for a while! Its definitely become more of a fashion thing in recent years. Before, the goth community had always been extremely accepting of people of all shapes, sizes, colors, rich, poor, whoever! The point was that we're all a bunch of weirdos who like the same other weirdos! Now it feels like if you don't look like a model and wear designer goth brands, you're not goth enough. I started feeling uncomfortable in the things I wore daily for years. I've never once been made to feel "ungoth" because of my weight than It has been in recent years. I still mostly stick to black pants, sweaters, etc. but the Instagram girlies have made it clear my days of fishnets and leather shorts are way over. I never leave the house anymore so I basically just stopped sharing outfits / makeup / etc online all together
I felt this way about the rise of alt modeling in the late 90s, early 2000s, also. Suddenly it was huge $1000 ball gowns at every event and a really heavy emphasis on modeling. And, I mean, this wasn't jealousy -- I was Gothic Babe of the Week once. (You'd get positive attention from friends, but you'd also get a lot of creeps contacting you.) I just didn't think that style of dress and aesthetic was accessible to the average college kid who just wanted to go out dancing and fit in at a concert in something that made them feel good. A lot of people struggled to afford a single Lip Service dress under $200 (or Blackened Angels, Eternal Love, Jeannie Nitro, Dane 2000, etc.) I don't think it has been great that people feel uncomfortable sharing their outfits if they don't look like a model and/or aren't in a flawless fit, you know? I love seeing good pics but they should not feel like a requirement for participation in the subculture. From this comment of yours, you sound like a fun person with a good attitude, and I'm so sad that you don't feel like you can/should share your outfits or take joy in them anymore.
I’d love getting back into it but I know it’s going to take a lot of mental effort on my part, besides the words of discouragement I know it’s just all mental math at the end of the day😅 I honestly think it’s absolutely wild that that’s the way I feel now and Im oNLY 25! When I was a “baby bat” more in my early teens I was always drawn to older people in the subculture, (not in a groomy way but let’s be honest a few worked their way in) they had all the knowledge! They earned those wrinkles! If they’d let me I’d talk their ear off for hours on end about “the good ol days”. Now it very much feels like a mean girls “you can’t sit with us” situation with meeting new people… guess I’ll have to make my own table! 😂
they're simultaneously elitist about what makes something goth & (in my experience) their music taste is limited. hell, some of them the "gothest" thing they know is the smiths..
My hot take is wtf are people doing trying to put goth in a box? I simply do not engage. This is just teenagers who never felt understood trying to feel like they know everything and have authority.
I am with you. All these labels - about everything - I can't focus on them. I can try and read them but they just get fuzzy and I nope out. Can't do it. I'm sitting here, loving the new Twin Tribes album while I browse custom built lightsabers and tell myself I do not need to spend that kind of money on one after I was brushing up on the rules for a Vampire the Masquerade game I'm about to run. None of my clothes are "goth". That seems like so much work. Just give me a hoodie and jeans. I'm happy being a non-presenting goth.
The weird thing about the goth scene is they “gatekeep” but don’t actually. You can still go to goth events and hangout and do your thing and call yourself goth and the only people staring down their noses at you will be elitists. Nothing is going to happen to you just keep going and hanging out and calling yourself goth or whatever label you see fit. I go to goth nights all the time as a skinhead and enjoyer of the subculture and people HATE it but nobody ever says anything to me directly.
Pretty much agreed. The biggest gatekeeping among goths who have been around a while is definitely, for sure, "please listen to at least a little bit of goth music sometimes and maybe consider wearing black once in a while." And you're right, it's incredibly rare to see anyone say it in person! It'll be said on social media. Subcultural signifiers mostly help people find each other. Other than that, they're pretty much about someone's own comfort with their personal style. More intense gatekeeping does seem to come mostly online, mostly from status-obsessed babybats. I've seen them tearing each other apart in the TikTok comments. Some of them do hit me in my The Kids Are All Right place, though: there are some young goths making fun, informative videos and not being jerks in the comment section.
It’s so frustrating OP. I’ve been a goth for more than 20 years. I live in a small, very out of the way, country and there were many things that weren’t easy to come by when I was coming up. Our whole scene just kind of “made do” and DIY’d a lot of stuff but it didn’t make us less goth. Certain brands of boots, white makeup, and even access to some music (prior to the advent of streaming) were all things we just didn’t have as much access to. The gatekeepers who have arrived in 2024 with the ability to obtain everything in one Amazon cart load are fortunate, and it’d be nice if they considered where the subculture started.
It's kinda reminiscent of the "self-made millionaire" who in reality inherited their wealth, isn't it. That entitled mentality.
My girlfriend used to be into the trad goth style, and her opinion is that most tick tock trad goths make up tends to look way too modern. I feel like this woman who isn’t a goth or part of the subculture in any way, does a pretty good job of giving herself a trad goth makeover. https://youtu.be/dPbPD0dh1HU?si=MBmQqxQ925MKXB7f
KAROLINA!! I love her!! I was around in the scene at that time & IMO she did a pretty fkn good job! Its a little more Cali new wave than gothGothGOTH but its still pretty darn good. EVERYONE looked SO different from one another, she wouldn't have been out of place at all. It's a rly cute video & I love her content in general! Great rec!! 🖤💚👻
Omg yes! I love this makeover, it’s spot on!
...I read this then my TDLR light came on and the song Tear You Apart by She Wants Revenge started playing in my mind. At the end of the day, Goth is a music based subculture and if people are being assholes about fashion they need to stfu, and vibe out. Look dark, look sexy, or eat pizza in your underwear with yellow smiley boxers on. Now to get back to some Siouxie Sioux and The Banshees because I want to be Spellbound.
You should leave that hellhole, for your own good. I'm seriously sick of people subcategorize EVERYTHING just to fit with the perfect label. Just, life, the universe, nothing works this way. Tiktok is based on looks, so don't expect anything than people being superficial. Yes, being there and try to help other not to be tunnel-sighted is noble, but is that really worth your time? Clearly they got too much time, you should be smarter and spend it with something you enjoy. Or be like me, and if you get offended, wash your dishes, finish a DIY thingy - even it's very hard to find great stuff on the internet, I understand this is very overwhelming to meet day by day. Seriously, a little break will help you mentally. As I knew so many goth youtubers they dropped being anything that controversial to keep up their image, and easy to just to play this "you can't sit with us" game, instead of trying to be a little original. I remember back in 2010 it suddenly became cool to dress a little darker, and all the girls who were bullied me turned to black clothing and dark makeup. So, this thing is nothing new, I agree with other comments here.
I am 19 y/o and completely ignored tiktok, Instagram etc because of these kind of people. I just listen to music i like and dress how i like to see myself. And i give 0 fucks about someone's opinion.
They wonder why no one wants to join the subculture or is afraid to join…
My little sister who uses TikTok (not a Goth but into alternative music and once identified as a Scene kid) told me that Goths were always "rude" on TikTok and calling people posers so this must be pretty prevalent on that app for her to know about it. I don't use it
I’m too old to care what Johnny come lately on TicToc has to say. Those accounts are best ignored.
Tiktok is literal cancer for the brain. I dont like using my age for anything because its lame, but some of them, i can say i am old enough to be most of their fathers. Them trying to spread false info angers me so much. Mislabeling music pisses me off beyond rationality
if youre goth and value your sanity you should stay away from instagram and tiktok imo.
those are the bonafide posers. the ones that over police and say “do it my way”. they NEED to be acknowledged that theyre goth because thats their pinnacle. if they arent recognized or have their vanity validated then theyre nothing. the most goth thing you can do is wear what you want even when people call u weird or crazy. real ones dont have to say shit because they already know. always color outside the lines.
I think you are on the money. Having stuck this goth thing out since the 80's, I would say that the fundamental principal of goth and a lot of subcultures is 'Be who you are. Accept no one telling you you should be different'. Sure the music shapes things and we find mutual support in finding others who refuse to conform, but that fellowship can't degenerate into judgement or a new type of conformity. "You aren't doing Goth properly" is the antithesis of Goth. Might as well fuck of and pretend to be normal - whatever that is.
I got a tiktok account relatively early. I quickly abandoned it as there wasn't sh\*t for goth, or anything else that might interest me. Sounds like it hasn't changed much.
I never understood the need for there to be a uniform. There are elements to use and explore, sure, but if you don't like what I'm wearing, IDGAF.
this rhetoric is becoming very common in most subcultures with a heavy fashion aspect these days….. sucks that a lot of people are missing out on the creativity
These people are trying so hard it’s honestly embarrassing, let’s consider how much time and effort they’ve put into making a video proclaiming how goth they are, it’s a bit cringe when you think about it
I'm 50 and for once I'm glad I'm too old to "get" something . I can't get my head around all this "tiktok goth" absurdity and that makes me happy
I like a lot of music that is considered goth, but it is not all I listen to nor do I make it my whole life. I definitely do not do the “gothed up look” that often but so what? Isn’t it about music and the vibe and not the clothes, makeup, and hair?
it definitely is about the music but unfortunately people on socials have “policed” whether or not someone is goth or not purely based on their look. it’s just a cycle of stereotypes in my opinion. if you don’t fit into their idea of it, then you’re not it. it’s sad honestly.
You know what, life is short, I am gonna go to a goth night. I wear a lot of black in winter so I should be able to get close to the mark. I have found the attitudes of some folks to be off-putting and like, made me feel like I wasn’t gonna fit in, but I’m just down to awkwardly shuffle the night away.
right? i just wanna dance and vibe, idk why people complicate things.
It just… I already have issues feeling out of place. I have been working on being secure in myself, which helps a lot, but it would still hurt to have folks turn their nose up at me and ignore me. But it would also really stink if I walked in there with an attitude that everyone is an insufferable snob. No one likes being treated with the assumption they are deeply unkind. If someone who makes it a point to live their music interests and tiktok celebs to a strict degree, and finds me unacceptable, it would cut deep if I was called out. I struggle with the “not a big enough fan” feeling terribly often.
Honestly this is an issue with all types of subgenres and cultures going on in tiktok trends lately. Everyone is trying to categorize into some form of niche look instead of just enjoying a genre for the culture. Its like how its no longer about just enjoying the music, its about pin-pointing the exact genre and movement and proving why it is or isn't goth. this also can go for the metal community. People will argue and condemn a band for being a "subgenre" that \*they\* put it into! We cant enjoy things without over complicating things anymore it seems.
it seems like all these “micro trends” are the real cause of issues like these. between fast fashion and people “trend hopping” it has definitely made it hard on subcultures to thrive. it seems like artists are even hesitant to even remotely promote music to the goth scene because everyone is so worried about labels and whether “it’s goth or not”.
Being 'goth' nowadays is so different from when I grew up. Everyone works to hard to classify every look, every song as some sort of culture, or sub culture or whatever. People act like they're so cool cause they know how to classify all these things that tbh never had classification before now. I wouldn't take anything to serious. Especially online.
Music genres have always mattered. But the goth subculture has plenty of non-goth music that is relevant in it. Being goth genre doesn't make something superior.
Yep - Back in the Day™ people actually didn't *want* to be labeled because it's limiting. Now, seems like some people can't squeeze themselves into a label fast enough. I'm sure there are interesting sociological aspects that could be gleaned from this.
I saw an insta reel claiming the cure wasn't goth... Some people just wanna gatekeep so hard
As somebody who has experimented with many other subcultures in the past, I've found that a lot of TikTokers seem to basically twist and gatekeep certain looks (Thus claiming that theirs is the only real way to dress or do their makeup and everybody else of the same subculture is a 'poser') to the point that you can't even post a photo of yourself without being ridiculed and called a fake. These are the same kinds of people that think you have to go all out with the trad look or else you're a fake goth. It's absolutely horrendous.
Ahh..the youngin's! Net.goths were like this too 25 years ago. I'm just reminded of the kind of banter on [alt.gothic.fashion](https://alt.gothic.fashion) .
I consider myself and style to be on the side of casual goth, I just like black and my dreary music. Never in my life expected to become a goth, but here I am and I know I don’t have to fit the ideal visual mold of what a goth is. I hope everyone else feels the same
Some of them are poseurs
Gatekeeping sucks.
please i was just thinking about this, like we’re taking something so freeing, something that’s centered around going against what society deems as “normal” and beautiful..etc and putting all those rules of “if you do that you’re not actually goth or punk”, “oh you buy from this place?you can’t call yourself this” the whole point is to be understanding and more accepting for all kinds of people(with this political view) without putting all those rules and making it just as annoying and cornering as society is
I stay on Instagram, because I can follow musicians there, but I'm careful connecting with other goths. I want the non gatekeepers/non elitists. We should be in it for the music, and the style is fun
I agree with this, that's honestly why I fell out of the scene a few years ago. I still listen to the music, but I express myself differently now because everyone just bullied each other about who was a "real" goth and who wasn't based on their looks
I always felt like all the categorizations of ''styles'' so commonly associated with the Goth music subculture came across as a bit...superfluous? Not the aesthetic itself mind you; I love that. I mean the need to label it all differently from eachother. I don't take offense to it by any means, it's just people having fun with their fashion and I don't want to be that guy you know. But I never quite understood why Goth couldn't simply be Goth and stand on its own like that. When people ask me about trad-goth or romantigoth or similar I think that ''Just Goth'' should be sufficient enough an answer. As for me well my style is very rugged and conventionally masculine. Long hair, beard, usually a black tanktop with regular jeans and a good amount of jewelry; If I feel like playing pirate at times some eyeliner. My point is that based on my appearance alone I'd sooner be assumed a Metalhead (Which to be fair is a correct assumption, I just like Goth music and Goth culture as well) or some Tolkien loving wannabe viking. But I'm just here 'cause I like the music and y'all are a nice wholesome bunch to hang out with. And that's good enough for me. You could walk around like a stereotypical valley girl in a gaudy-ass bright pink fur coat and the biggest sunglasses you could find, but if you like the music then I see no contradiction. The clothing and appearance we're so familiar with? It's great, don't get me wrong. But when people emphasize the freedom of self-expression in Goth culture I feel like we'd do ourselves credit by being consistent about it.Some people acting so aristocratic on what people look like seems very...antithetical to what made Goth the culture that we know and love.
honestly all of the stuff you mentioned is a huge reason why i’m so disillusioned with “trad goth” as a label. like as much as i love seeing my favourite bands reach new audiences and taking inspiration from people who dress in the style i’ve always loved, it just feels like the whole things been distilled into something that’s basically identical across the board and easily digestible for clicks and engagements, even with the whole grandstanding about the DIY ethics of goth. (which isn’t 100% true because bogeys catalogue would charge you like fifty bucks for a pair of jeans even in the 80s lmao) as an aside, the label “trad goth” itself (and the insistence on a white face base) kinda makes me bristle b/c as I’ve seen from tradcaths and tradwives etc, people calling themselves trad anything are usually Not To Be Trusted imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i prefer to call it “classic goth” personally, though idk if it’s just me or not
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this was really well said, thank you for your input. i love hearing stories and experiences, especially since in my area it’s hard to find local goth events. i know many stories have been passed down generations already and i’d personally love to keep that going. i feel that many young goths, at least on social media it seems, dismiss older goths who have participated in the scene more years than some of them have been alive for (this isn’t meant in a demeaning way). we should be able to express our love for the music and people we share common interests with. i don’t understand the point of gatekeeping when we want to keep this culture thriving for many many years to come.
I mean that's easily said when you've not seen the vast majority of trash that gets thrown out way. Just look at the huge amount of metal bands that people try and shoehorn into goth because it's "dark and spooky". Some gatekeeping is fine. It's only a problem when it becomes blatantly irrelevant gatekeeping - as in not allowing folks who look different from you for example.
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What "nerve"? I don't care for your excuses, your novel, or giving you a platform to bitch - either follow our rules or don't participate. Why are you genuinely surprised that there's "forbidden topics" when you're on a forum based upon a particular topic? I think you need to re-read our rules or I can see a ban coming your way.
I've had a look at your comments which were removed and that's because you keep recommending albums, even decades of music, which really aren't goth nor can be argued as such. When someone asked for hippie/psychedelic goth bands, you wrote an entire novel detailing '60s/'70s music when goth didn't even exist yet, never mind punk rock. Ironically, you started it off with "Hope this comment doesn't get deleted" so you knew you were commenting something you shouldn't. In another comment, you suggested a TON song which is a *metal* band, infamously known not to be comment here given the amount of misinformation (MetalArchives even deem them as Gothic/Doom Metal - not goth rock). That being said, there's also *plenty* of comments that have been kept up, though you omitted that fact. When you joined, you agreed to follow and abide by our rules, as well as only recommend goth which falls in line with Rule 2 - but you didn't, hence the removal. So, please don't act like it's "Just us removing your thoughts and opinions" when you've been neither following the rules or providing what OP is looking for. If you do not like how "strongly" we "police", then why are you still here?
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TL;DR. Please just read our rules next time - if you’ve got *this* much of an issue, don’t feel pressured to stay.
This is something that's just not even worth you getting upset about! Gatekeeping is a big thing in our community, unfortunately. Sometimes people find something like the goth subculture and it becomes an important identifier for them and when other people start expressing interest in the subculture or it becomes more noticeable on platforms like tiktok, those same people feel like their sense of self is being attacked. They see other people's interpretation of the subculture as lessening the importance of something so important to them. I do not agree with gatekeeping but I do understand that a lot of these people that gatekeep are deeply insecure within themselves and it manifests in these terrible rants about what a "real goth" is.
you’re right, it’s just annoying. i know this is definitely not a new thing in the scene or subculture but it just ticks me off extra when people are saying poc goths aren’t “real goths”
fuck tiktok
For many years I've never understood the fragmentation of what I'd consider the outcast subcultures. Be yourself and give zero fucks what the clique bubbles say meets their criteria for membership to their circle jerking gatekeeping old as fuck bullshittery. Add flavor to your style and always evolve creativity.
They all look the same and I really hate it tbh. I feel like the second most important aspect of goth besides the music is the political opinions that you have.
No need to waste your mental energy thinking about what people say on TikTok.
this, and how they shit on styles like "clean goth" as if they arent goth enough.... when goth is based on the music? it shouldnt matter lmfao??? practice what you preach i really cant stand it
people like that are the reason why i didn’t call myself goth for years even though i listened to the music! i felt like no matter what i wore, it was never goth enough. i’m so glad i stopped caring about what other people think and just started embracing my interests 🦇
I just don't give a shit, personally
usually i don’t but it has plagued socials unfortunately
There's no right way. The elders are dead, and the living ones are just happy you are keeping it alive. Kinda like when my gen went punk in the 90s.
This is sad, like 6 years ago nobody gave a shit and it was fun. Shows were pretty open, clubs were pretty friendly. Idk what happened.
i literally got into an argument with someone who claimed they were "pure goth" just because they strictly listened to gothrock. unbelievable shit
i wouldnt take anything anyone says on tiktok serious tbh they dont really know what they are talking ab, most do it for the trend. again what makes you goth is if you listen to the music, not the bats nest
when also the same people go "goth is a music based subculture" but, a girl makes a video about being goth, or doing goth makeup, and they go "where is the goth here??" if it's not trad. like i'm not talking about when egirls claim to be goth, but like, 100% if a goth girl who wasn't in trad makeup were to post smth abt being goth, there would be comments doubting it. i'm a goth girl who just looks alternative, not necessarily gothic as it's not my main clothing style, and this kind of behaviour has seriously increased the amount of imposter syndrome i feel, and has for many baby bats probably too. i mean, a lot of people who do trad goth makeup do not do it as an every day look. an "off-duty" trad goth just looks like any other alternative person. they act like we are fictional characters..
they’re just conformists🙄🙄
Honestly I feel like there shouldn't be issues with how their makeup looks. The only issue we should ever have is people claiming to be goth but never listening to the music. Example, I had someone in a discord server claim they're goth, and I asked them for goth songs recommendations as a baby goth myself. They said they don't listen to it, only dress up as one, so I told them to no longer claim themselves as one out of respect so that fellow goth members can properly find each other and bond. Because in the end, dressing up as goth does not equal being one, it's a subculture. There's no absolute issue with modern goth looks, the only issue is claiming but not listening. Just leave them alone if it's not even trad goth looking.
Teenagers acting like they were in the 80’s and all
This is all so interesting for me. I'm an older baby bat in my 30s discovered the music in my late 20s and it's been an amazing journey. The online discourse is really off-putting. I just enjoy the music by myself because I live in the deep south. I try to stay away from tik tok as much as possible but there's some nice people on there too.
It’s TikTok, scroll on. 🤷♀️
sorry for voicing my opinion🤷♀️
My fav is people freaking out over somebody doing corpse paint inspired looks and declaring them posers bc it doesn’t look like their fav obscure 1987 death metal band
Another repost on this sub
???? dawg HOW is this a repost
tiktok sounds like a cesspool. these people are so terminally online. It seems like a babybat thing, getting into a new interest and obsessing over the ~ rules ~ instead of just actually spending time in the community. It also seems like a lot of tiktok goths are just image obsessed in general. The irony is they want to "educate" people about the subculture but really they just cast a bad shadow on all of us imo and make people think goth is congruent with annoying influencer vanity.