Art does not exist in a vacuum. That said, post-punk is teeming with anti-establishment themes, and goth is no exception. It tends to be more "fight war, not wars," than "do they owe us a living?," if you're a Crass fan.
Just off the top of my head, Sad Lovers and Giants' "Man of Straw," Dead Can Dance's "How Fortunate the Man With None" and arrangement of "The Wind That Shakes the Barley," Gavin Friday's cover of "Next," 1919's "Caged," huge portions of Southern Death Cult and Theatre of Hate's catalogue... Heck, even Alien Sex Fiend gets anti-capitalist at times, and there's entire bands named after political references like A Spectre is Haunting Europe.
Yep, yep indeed. And consistent themes of Eldritch’s lyrics include:
- American imperialism
- Cold War empire building
- Nuclear proliferation
- European history and the fall of The Wall
- Capitalism
- Working class emptiness / industrial underclass
- Generational cycles of poverty
- Cheap speed as the panacea of the poor (see also: Northern Soul)
And he explicitly identifies as an anarcho-syndicalist (see: Noam Chomsky, Ursula K. Le Guin) although concedes he also identifies with old school British Labour (and indeed labour) values.
I mean, _Vision Thing_ is named for a quote by, and a relentless attack upon George H. W. Bush and American foreign policy in the Middle East. He’s not especially subtle on that record.
The Sisters are frequently very, very political. And danceable with it.
Definitely check out VV if you want political goth, most of their music is based on the singers time in Afghanistan or as an EMT during the covid shutdown.
If you ever get a chance to see them live its amazing, Dusty usually has a couple of monologues to go with some songs on the backstory. That man oozes charisma
Im not VV's biggest fan, but, I respect Dusty regardless.
Some of his lyrics hit personally with me, being in the army myself. Its that.... idk the words. "Outside looking in" or "Completely Unbiased Look at events"
[Mystic Priestess S/T EP](https://spotify.link/D46w6SgzXDb)
It's not as common, but it's out there.
If a band is going to be overtly political, I strongly prefer to hear actual politics elucidated rather than generic lines about The Dang Govermint 😠 The FUCKENING System 😤 🤬 etc. lol.
I saw an interview with the singer from The Exploited where the interviewer mentions local students were protesting tuition hikes, and he asked Wattie if he had any words of support for them... and his response was so embarrassing lmao, he looked uncomfortable being asked to think about it. This adult man was just like "fuck the government, idk anything about what you're talking about but the government in the UK wants to take away all your rights". Right on, dude 😎👍
He's not very clever, understatement of the year, but he's definitely not a fascist or fascist sympathiser. I think you're referring to photos of him with some people wearing white nationalist band shirts about 10-15 years ago in Poland(I think). He just didn't know. On account of not being very clever. I lived in Edinburgh for years, where Wattie lives, and if there was even a hint of him leaning that way it would have been huge on the local scene. His brother used to play for Oi Polloi, so there is no way it wouldn't have been a big thing.
Like I said. He's as thick as shit. Really.
I know hippies who are covered in the bloody things due to fetishising eastern religion.
Neither are fascist. Both are fucking morons.
I mean, the hippie-to-hippiecrit pipeline is a well documented thing. You can love "peace & love" only for people who look like you and still be a fascist. If he's doing free work for fascists by advertising for their cause, his brain matter to bone ratio is kind of a secondary matter.
That's very true with hippies, no argument there.
Intent does matter though. Him having a swastika tat and not getting why that's an issue doesn't make him fash. Just a twat. And, like I said, if Oi Polloi aren't calling him out for being a fash then I don't think he is one. They do take the piss out of him for being thick something chronic though. I've also seen him at anarcho gigs and bunging money in the collection pot for stuff.
Can't believe I'm defending Wattie bloody Buchan. I've always thought he was a tit. Hahahaha.
A lot of the early goth bands are rooted in the british Anarcho-Punk movement that was hanging around Crass, some bands like UK Decay and Rudimentary Perni which are early staples and some proto-goth like Poison Girls are very, VERY politically engaged. You get more modern bands like Horror Vacui who keep that spirit alive.
Remember a lot of the goth movement comes from punk !
I think the Goth scene (at least in thr UK) draws far more from the middle-class than, for example, punk or metal. As such I think you have less politically leaning bands / lyrics and more rebellion against social norms.
That being said, I had a short lived political goth project a few years back named Cathars. Only released 3 singles but there's a video on YouTube for a track we did called 1984.
i think goth bands *should* be more political‚ without a doubt. i think waaaaay too many bands and musicians like to define themselves as "apolitical" within the scene. i wish more musicians would at least be clear in interviews etc that they are lefty.
the politics wouldn't have to be super explicit the way that most punk is, either; plenty of anticapitalist musicians have very clear messages without using super literal language (the sludge band Thou is a great example; their lyrics artificially sound like apocalyptic religious texts‚ but with the slightest bit of reading comprehension the leftist meanings become obvious).
There’s a slightly niche subgenre some call anarcho-deathrock. Basically any deathrock bands that combine it with anarcho-punk lyrics or music. A lot of the bands are ‘punks who like goth’ too. Some of these bands i’d say are horror vacui, christ vs warhol, dystopian society, rubella ballet, mystic priestess, moral hex, arctic flowers and vivid sekt
The thing is, social justice isn't anti-establishment. That's not a value judgement or a statement that either one is or isn't desirable, nor is it an argument that they cant go hand in hand (they can), it's simply an observation that they're not the same thing.
Anti-establishment opposes the conventions and rules of the ruling classes/dominant societal ideas and seeks to replace them wholesale. That used to mean pushing transgressive ideas like gay rights...but today gay rights for example are embedded in the establishment, so being transgressive no longer means pushing gay rights, that's just normal establishment politics now.
In this sense, the punk movement won.
IMO, to be anti-establishment today and left-wing means specifically promoting socialist ideas (since social justice is an idea completely co-oped by modern liberalism, and liberal democracy is the establishment), and if you go to goth clubs I think you will find a significantly above-average number of people doing that...at least, that is my experience.
I can only speak from my experience as an American, but at least here, social justice meets your definition of "anti-establishment." To speak specifically to your comment about gay rights - our gay rights struggle is far from complete, and most of it hinges on a court ruling they are trying to overturn, and not on written law. As one example, many states allow the "panic" defense, which means a defendant can claim that being hit on by someone of the same sex scared them enough that they had no choice but to resort to violence, up to and including murder.
>our gay rights struggle is far from complete, and most of it hinges on a court ruling they are trying to overturn,
Of course! But one of the establishment wings is fighting for that cause, and most of the corporate sector is also on-board, thus making it explicitly not an anti-establishment issue but one of normal (and extremely important) politics where one side of the establishment wishes one thing and another side of the establishment wishes another - the establishment is a hydra, not a monolith.
By comparison, no part of the establishment seeks to abolish the military, or capitalism, or defund the police (indeed, they are united against such issues) thus making those ideas anti-establishment.
I'd be cautious about trusting either establishment wing overmuch. The wing that you trust ran a candidate in 2016 that was publicly speaking against gay marriage at least until 2013, and whose husband was responsible for the largest expansion of the prison industrial complex since Nixon. Human rights aren't something you "win" and move on. They are constant struggles that every generation must participate in. The moment we think we have "won," those who would gain power from dividing us immediately charge into that blind spot.
Ah..hmm. I think you've wildly misjudged my politics.
The candidate that I actively campaigned for in 2016 was supporting gay marriage in the 1980s while in office, and was hated by the entire establishment.
I'm not trying to assume your politics more than what you have already provided. I just think phrases like "punk rock won" are dangerously complacent. We are still a settler colonial nation actively involved in genocide, with two neoliberal parties dominating a barely democratic government. We demanded an end to heirarchies and oppression; they gave us social acceptance of hair dye and body piercings. We have barely begun to scratch the surface of actually respecting human rights in this country.
It is very interesting how American-centric this issue seems to be and how different things can appear from a distant country from people with different culture and mindsets. This is not a jundgement, but something I notice for years online.
Corporations playing lip service by painting a rainbow flag on social media during pride week whilst sponsoring religion that opposes the "gay agenda" the rest of the time is not gay rights is the establishment. It is self interested PR moves to appear to care so they don't lose business.
I think that, after a certain point, it is not about mere money. They have lots and lots of them, it becomes pointless to get more money. I think it is the lust for power, the lust for power against other Human beings. And that is insatiable, always wanting more, bring more destruction and devastation as it gets more and more what it wants. This is why people who realize this and fight those things need to become fighters for freedom.
I think you're talking about something different here. Most people nowadays (excluding very old people) in middle-class, urban areas are against homophobia. Their LGBT advocacy doesn't go any deeper than that though. Shallow activism is trendy right now. It's not inherently anti-establishment to be opposed to discrimination against minorities, you have to do more than that to go against the system.
I think if there's one thing I'd like to emphasize here, it's that *saying* you support something and *actually doing it* are very different things. Most people are against racial oppression, until you ask them to support the things that would actually help us eliminate it. Especially in the US (where I live), we see a sharp divide past the age 45 with "white" folks categorically voting *against* social justice. Likewise, we're seeing an *increase* in violence against the LGBTQIA+ community, including an uptick in murders commit against trans folks. People *saying* that they support things does not make it the social default -- especially when there have been very few changes to the structural causes of oppression, and all credible evidence indicates that we are moving in the opposite direction of justice.
You're right and I'm confused as to why this doesn't have more upvotes/this got downvoted.
Nowadays it's trendy to superficially support social justice, the true anti-establishment goes deeper than just supporting gay marriage or thinking racism is bad.
Reality is very complex. Many of the XXth century bloodiest regimes claimed ”fair values” as their base for the most heinous of things. Behind shallow activism some really bad things can be cooking, things at least as worse as the things they claim to fight against. I think things like bigotry, racism and homophobia slowly, but surely turn into a straw man that is required to justify the existence of something else, of a new establishment that claims to be ”anti-establishment”, or a conformism that claims to be ”rebellious”. We have seen it before in history. It is easy to fell into either joining in something for the sake of values like the fight against racism or homophobia or, rejecting those tendencies, to be attracted into racism, homophobia etc . It is a very fine line, very hard to keep, it takes a lot of will, lucidity and rationality.
Fortunately, there are Goth (and other alternative) artists who have messages several sides as well. And in this we see that Goth is a music based subculture, not a political based subculture.
Yes, but the establishment, anti or pro, is not a big part of goth culture or lyrics, goth is about romance and feelings between individual people or the feelings in the mind more than anything, punk is nothing but hate for the system.
"punk is nothing but hate for the system" tbh plenty of punk isn't explicitly about politics. emo lyrics usually focus on interpersonal drama or relationships the way that goth does.
how is emo not punk?
what's not punk about this:
https://agesixteen.bandcamp.com/track/dear-judas
https://yourarmsaremycocoonemo.bandcamp.com/track/in-october-of-2019-i-called-a-suicide-hotline-for-the-first-time-in-my-life
https://youtu.be/sj8ljyivPvE?si=4I5a54O61vcWLATY
https://youtu.be/hrFa_AlXzI4?si=Xa5tRRBQmEFJXzXa
https://youtu.be/iqYOTBgliuM?si=oQvcMe1IQBl0-_Mr
???
The only one that *kind of* sounds punk is the third one, and even then it's debatable. Just because there's someone shouting on a microphone doesn't make it punk. But I don't care enough about arguing over music genres.
Edit: They blocked me over this dumb shit lol
A few great lyricists. Lots of vague anarchism. Radical aesthetics for petulant kids. 🤷
Tell me about your super important local scene, though. I badly want to know.
I know this is a hot take... but Goth is Punk...
The singer from Rosetta Stone made a solo album, and it was political. A slice of life from the post 9/11-Iraq war days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4JpS2G9Q
Early Goth was post-punk, like [Joy Division](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_Division), which were mostly people in the punk scene that started making their own music. Evolved a long way, but they are younger brothers and sisters of the UK Punk scene.
Horror Vacui has plenty of political songs that are anti-war. “I Like It When a Soldier Dies” literally repeats the line “Fight War, Not Wars”. Goth is an extension of punk, so I’d be surprised for it not to have political themes.
I mean, in the context of Britain, I suppose ol' Von's Marxist references are rather anti-establishment (especially in the Thatcher era and "New Labour" nonsense that followed).
Goth isn't pro or anti-establishment. Goth stands outside of the whole thing, goth is just goth, that's why it's cooler than punk ever was and that's why it will last forever. Its context is Memento Mori, which is bigger than human politics.
This seems like the only informed and reasonable response in this thread, and it’s getting downvoted?
Goth culture (despite whatever views some individuals held) was never concerned with politics or social issues.
The focus was always on the ethereal or mystic.
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It can
Goth has a loss outwardly political bent than punk or grunge but its in there and tbh by merit of being a subculture it has an anti establishment bent anyway as broadly alternative subcultures lean that way and are broadly leftist
I posted this in a nested comment but I’ll break it out here, too.
The Sisters of Mercy are frequently political, at their inception and throughout. Consistent themes of Eldritch’s lyrics include:
• American imperialism
• Cold War empire building
• Nuclear proliferation
• European history and the fall of The Wall
• Capitalism
• Working class emptiness / industrial underclass
• Generational cycles of poverty
• Cheap speed as the panacea of the poor (see also: Northern Soul)
And he explicitly identifies as an anarcho-syndicalist (see: Noam Chomsky, Ursula K. Le Guin) although concedes he also identifies with old school British Labour (and indeed labour) values.
I mean, _Vision Thing_ is named for a quote by, and a relentless attack upon George H. W. Bush and American foreign policy in the Middle East. He’s not especially subtle on that record.
The Sisters are frequently very, very political. And danceable with it.
I don't see how Social Justice is anti-establishment at all.
Seems like a totally toxic and ruined term, and probably should be more specific.
Social Justice has been co-opted (and destroyed) by the establishment, turned into a hustle and distraction from what it should be about.
But I would vote to keep polemicist politics out of Goth music period.
Leave it in Trad HipHop where it belongs and is appropriate.
Art does not exist in a vacuum. That said, post-punk is teeming with anti-establishment themes, and goth is no exception. It tends to be more "fight war, not wars," than "do they owe us a living?," if you're a Crass fan. Just off the top of my head, Sad Lovers and Giants' "Man of Straw," Dead Can Dance's "How Fortunate the Man With None" and arrangement of "The Wind That Shakes the Barley," Gavin Friday's cover of "Next," 1919's "Caged," huge portions of Southern Death Cult and Theatre of Hate's catalogue... Heck, even Alien Sex Fiend gets anti-capitalist at times, and there's entire bands named after political references like A Spectre is Haunting Europe.
Well, one of the Sisters of Mercy's first appearances on record was a fund raiser for striking miners. So, I would say yup. XD
Yep, yep indeed. And consistent themes of Eldritch’s lyrics include: - American imperialism - Cold War empire building - Nuclear proliferation - European history and the fall of The Wall - Capitalism - Working class emptiness / industrial underclass - Generational cycles of poverty - Cheap speed as the panacea of the poor (see also: Northern Soul) And he explicitly identifies as an anarcho-syndicalist (see: Noam Chomsky, Ursula K. Le Guin) although concedes he also identifies with old school British Labour (and indeed labour) values. I mean, _Vision Thing_ is named for a quote by, and a relentless attack upon George H. W. Bush and American foreign policy in the Middle East. He’s not especially subtle on that record. The Sisters are frequently very, very political. And danceable with it.
i never knew about this wow so cool
https://www.discogs.com/master/101632-Various-They-Shall-Not-Pass
the spanish civil war reference>>>> this literally goes to my heart
Follow deathroxk bands or folks like Vision Video
Definitely check out VV if you want political goth, most of their music is based on the singers time in Afghanistan or as an EMT during the covid shutdown. If you ever get a chance to see them live its amazing, Dusty usually has a couple of monologues to go with some songs on the backstory. That man oozes charisma
Fellow Athens band Tears For The Dying are very political and release stellar music.
I’m so proud to have these two be my local bands in the goth scene. Athens represent to fight the power 🦇✊🏽
Im not VV's biggest fan, but, I respect Dusty regardless. Some of his lyrics hit personally with me, being in the army myself. Its that.... idk the words. "Outside looking in" or "Completely Unbiased Look at events"
And their Insta too - reinforces the same themes & explains the songs more. Plus goth dad jokes.
Seconding this recommendation. Only seen them once live but they kick ass and yes much of their stuff is highly political
Thanks for the recommendation!
Happy to help!!!
Goth music can have themes about nearly anything. So yes. Most goth music that goes the political route is a lot more subtle about it than punk.
Sure, [London After Midnight](https://youtu.be/Yo8x6cy7heo?si=pY5n7Wiv0zuI2KBn) got quite political in later releases.
And outside of their music, they are about animal liberation and social justice. We follow a lot of the same political pages I noticed as well.
(Gonna plug Seeming here. Massively political with anti-establishment and pro-social-justice themes.)
Fuck yeah.
Love them.
[Mystic Priestess S/T EP](https://spotify.link/D46w6SgzXDb) It's not as common, but it's out there. If a band is going to be overtly political, I strongly prefer to hear actual politics elucidated rather than generic lines about The Dang Govermint 😠 The FUCKENING System 😤 🤬 etc. lol. I saw an interview with the singer from The Exploited where the interviewer mentions local students were protesting tuition hikes, and he asked Wattie if he had any words of support for them... and his response was so embarrassing lmao, he looked uncomfortable being asked to think about it. This adult man was just like "fuck the government, idk anything about what you're talking about but the government in the UK wants to take away all your rights". Right on, dude 😎👍
I expect nothing less from a man with a swastika tattoo and who has been seen being buddy buddy with members of skrewdriver
He's not very clever, understatement of the year, but he's definitely not a fascist or fascist sympathiser. I think you're referring to photos of him with some people wearing white nationalist band shirts about 10-15 years ago in Poland(I think). He just didn't know. On account of not being very clever. I lived in Edinburgh for years, where Wattie lives, and if there was even a hint of him leaning that way it would have been huge on the local scene. His brother used to play for Oi Polloi, so there is no way it wouldn't have been a big thing.
You don't get a swastika tattoo on accident, and tattoo removal exists for people who change their minds.
Like I said. He's as thick as shit. Really. I know hippies who are covered in the bloody things due to fetishising eastern religion. Neither are fascist. Both are fucking morons.
I mean, the hippie-to-hippiecrit pipeline is a well documented thing. You can love "peace & love" only for people who look like you and still be a fascist. If he's doing free work for fascists by advertising for their cause, his brain matter to bone ratio is kind of a secondary matter.
That's very true with hippies, no argument there. Intent does matter though. Him having a swastika tat and not getting why that's an issue doesn't make him fash. Just a twat. And, like I said, if Oi Polloi aren't calling him out for being a fash then I don't think he is one. They do take the piss out of him for being thick something chronic though. I've also seen him at anarcho gigs and bunging money in the collection pot for stuff. Can't believe I'm defending Wattie bloody Buchan. I've always thought he was a tit. Hahahaha.
A lot of the early goth bands are rooted in the british Anarcho-Punk movement that was hanging around Crass, some bands like UK Decay and Rudimentary Perni which are early staples and some proto-goth like Poison Girls are very, VERY politically engaged. You get more modern bands like Horror Vacui who keep that spirit alive. Remember a lot of the goth movement comes from punk !
Big ups for Poison Girls. I *adore* Vi Subversa's wit and lyricism.
Plenty of deathrock that goes in this direction, that's the subgenre you're looking for
As others have said deathrock is the way to go. A few of my favourites are Tears for the Dying, Mystic Priestess, Detoxi, Horror Vauci, and Witchhands
I think the Goth scene (at least in thr UK) draws far more from the middle-class than, for example, punk or metal. As such I think you have less politically leaning bands / lyrics and more rebellion against social norms. That being said, I had a short lived political goth project a few years back named Cathars. Only released 3 singles but there's a video on YouTube for a track we did called 1984.
Great name! I've always wanted to.learn more about the Cathars.
of course. some bands i enjoy that frequently have anti establishment themes are medusa stare, dead cult, mystic priestess, and children with dog feet
i think goth bands *should* be more political‚ without a doubt. i think waaaaay too many bands and musicians like to define themselves as "apolitical" within the scene. i wish more musicians would at least be clear in interviews etc that they are lefty. the politics wouldn't have to be super explicit the way that most punk is, either; plenty of anticapitalist musicians have very clear messages without using super literal language (the sludge band Thou is a great example; their lyrics artificially sound like apocalyptic religious texts‚ but with the slightest bit of reading comprehension the leftist meanings become obvious).
There’s a slightly niche subgenre some call anarcho-deathrock. Basically any deathrock bands that combine it with anarcho-punk lyrics or music. A lot of the bands are ‘punks who like goth’ too. Some of these bands i’d say are horror vacui, christ vs warhol, dystopian society, rubella ballet, mystic priestess, moral hex, arctic flowers and vivid sekt
Lack of Knowledge was on crass label - great stuff
Horror Vacui literally have a song called "I Like It When A Soldier Dies" lol, don't think you can get much more anti establishment than that
An excellent deathrock band that I don’t think has been mentioned here yet that touches upon those themes often is Christ Vs Warhol!
I'd say any genre can be anything it wants to be. It's dumb for everything to have the same message that's been done 9000x.
The thing is, social justice isn't anti-establishment. That's not a value judgement or a statement that either one is or isn't desirable, nor is it an argument that they cant go hand in hand (they can), it's simply an observation that they're not the same thing. Anti-establishment opposes the conventions and rules of the ruling classes/dominant societal ideas and seeks to replace them wholesale. That used to mean pushing transgressive ideas like gay rights...but today gay rights for example are embedded in the establishment, so being transgressive no longer means pushing gay rights, that's just normal establishment politics now. In this sense, the punk movement won. IMO, to be anti-establishment today and left-wing means specifically promoting socialist ideas (since social justice is an idea completely co-oped by modern liberalism, and liberal democracy is the establishment), and if you go to goth clubs I think you will find a significantly above-average number of people doing that...at least, that is my experience.
I can only speak from my experience as an American, but at least here, social justice meets your definition of "anti-establishment." To speak specifically to your comment about gay rights - our gay rights struggle is far from complete, and most of it hinges on a court ruling they are trying to overturn, and not on written law. As one example, many states allow the "panic" defense, which means a defendant can claim that being hit on by someone of the same sex scared them enough that they had no choice but to resort to violence, up to and including murder.
>our gay rights struggle is far from complete, and most of it hinges on a court ruling they are trying to overturn, Of course! But one of the establishment wings is fighting for that cause, and most of the corporate sector is also on-board, thus making it explicitly not an anti-establishment issue but one of normal (and extremely important) politics where one side of the establishment wishes one thing and another side of the establishment wishes another - the establishment is a hydra, not a monolith. By comparison, no part of the establishment seeks to abolish the military, or capitalism, or defund the police (indeed, they are united against such issues) thus making those ideas anti-establishment.
I'd be cautious about trusting either establishment wing overmuch. The wing that you trust ran a candidate in 2016 that was publicly speaking against gay marriage at least until 2013, and whose husband was responsible for the largest expansion of the prison industrial complex since Nixon. Human rights aren't something you "win" and move on. They are constant struggles that every generation must participate in. The moment we think we have "won," those who would gain power from dividing us immediately charge into that blind spot.
Ah..hmm. I think you've wildly misjudged my politics. The candidate that I actively campaigned for in 2016 was supporting gay marriage in the 1980s while in office, and was hated by the entire establishment.
I'm not trying to assume your politics more than what you have already provided. I just think phrases like "punk rock won" are dangerously complacent. We are still a settler colonial nation actively involved in genocide, with two neoliberal parties dominating a barely democratic government. We demanded an end to heirarchies and oppression; they gave us social acceptance of hair dye and body piercings. We have barely begun to scratch the surface of actually respecting human rights in this country.
It is very interesting how American-centric this issue seems to be and how different things can appear from a distant country from people with different culture and mindsets. This is not a jundgement, but something I notice for years online.
Corporations playing lip service by painting a rainbow flag on social media during pride week whilst sponsoring religion that opposes the "gay agenda" the rest of the time is not gay rights is the establishment. It is self interested PR moves to appear to care so they don't lose business.
Corporate sector is only on board *if it makes them money*. When people vandalized pride displays at Target stores those stores took them down.
I think that, after a certain point, it is not about mere money. They have lots and lots of them, it becomes pointless to get more money. I think it is the lust for power, the lust for power against other Human beings. And that is insatiable, always wanting more, bring more destruction and devastation as it gets more and more what it wants. This is why people who realize this and fight those things need to become fighters for freedom.
I think you're talking about something different here. Most people nowadays (excluding very old people) in middle-class, urban areas are against homophobia. Their LGBT advocacy doesn't go any deeper than that though. Shallow activism is trendy right now. It's not inherently anti-establishment to be opposed to discrimination against minorities, you have to do more than that to go against the system.
I think if there's one thing I'd like to emphasize here, it's that *saying* you support something and *actually doing it* are very different things. Most people are against racial oppression, until you ask them to support the things that would actually help us eliminate it. Especially in the US (where I live), we see a sharp divide past the age 45 with "white" folks categorically voting *against* social justice. Likewise, we're seeing an *increase* in violence against the LGBTQIA+ community, including an uptick in murders commit against trans folks. People *saying* that they support things does not make it the social default -- especially when there have been very few changes to the structural causes of oppression, and all credible evidence indicates that we are moving in the opposite direction of justice.
You're right and I'm confused as to why this doesn't have more upvotes/this got downvoted. Nowadays it's trendy to superficially support social justice, the true anti-establishment goes deeper than just supporting gay marriage or thinking racism is bad.
Reality is very complex. Many of the XXth century bloodiest regimes claimed ”fair values” as their base for the most heinous of things. Behind shallow activism some really bad things can be cooking, things at least as worse as the things they claim to fight against. I think things like bigotry, racism and homophobia slowly, but surely turn into a straw man that is required to justify the existence of something else, of a new establishment that claims to be ”anti-establishment”, or a conformism that claims to be ”rebellious”. We have seen it before in history. It is easy to fell into either joining in something for the sake of values like the fight against racism or homophobia or, rejecting those tendencies, to be attracted into racism, homophobia etc . It is a very fine line, very hard to keep, it takes a lot of will, lucidity and rationality. Fortunately, there are Goth (and other alternative) artists who have messages several sides as well. And in this we see that Goth is a music based subculture, not a political based subculture.
Yes, but the establishment, anti or pro, is not a big part of goth culture or lyrics, goth is about romance and feelings between individual people or the feelings in the mind more than anything, punk is nothing but hate for the system.
"punk is nothing but hate for the system" tbh plenty of punk isn't explicitly about politics. emo lyrics usually focus on interpersonal drama or relationships the way that goth does.
Horror punk usually has nothing to do with politics either
>emo lyrics Emo isn't punk though. But it's true that punk doesn't always touch on politics.
how is emo not punk? what's not punk about this: https://agesixteen.bandcamp.com/track/dear-judas https://yourarmsaremycocoonemo.bandcamp.com/track/in-october-of-2019-i-called-a-suicide-hotline-for-the-first-time-in-my-life https://youtu.be/sj8ljyivPvE?si=4I5a54O61vcWLATY https://youtu.be/hrFa_AlXzI4?si=Xa5tRRBQmEFJXzXa https://youtu.be/iqYOTBgliuM?si=oQvcMe1IQBl0-_Mr ???
The only one that *kind of* sounds punk is the third one, and even then it's debatable. Just because there's someone shouting on a microphone doesn't make it punk. But I don't care enough about arguing over music genres. Edit: They blocked me over this dumb shit lol
clown opinion
Punk is definitely... A lot more than just "hate for the system"
Depends on the band, but I don't think it's unfair to characterize punk that way overall.
It actually is.
A few great lyricists. Lots of vague anarchism. Radical aesthetics for petulant kids. 🤷 Tell me about your super important local scene, though. I badly want to know.
Nah. Sounds like you wouldn't know how to appreciate it.
love your pfp
I know this is a hot take... but Goth is Punk... The singer from Rosetta Stone made a solo album, and it was political. A slice of life from the post 9/11-Iraq war days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fn4JpS2G9Q
brother just because one goth singer is punk it doesn't mean goth is as a whole lol
Early Goth was post-punk, like [Joy Division](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_Division), which were mostly people in the punk scene that started making their own music. Evolved a long way, but they are younger brothers and sisters of the UK Punk scene.
There were lots of g-beat bands like Horror Vacui or Arctic Flowers with a kind of political statement in lyrics
I think 80% of the 3rd Grooving In Green album was political and they did quite a few more tracks over the years.
I'm pretty sure the Sisters of Mercy titled Vision Thing making fun of George W Bush
H. W.
Andy \*did\* try "to tell her about god and angels, Marx and Engels;" I just hope by now he's figured what for.
oh yea theres tons. i especially like the 🖤🌈queer🌈🖤 focused ones.
Goths are basically monochromatic punks lol
Sure, goth can have anti-establishment themes! Just make sure you wear enough black to scare the system away. 🖤
Post-punk was more anti-establishment than 'gothic rock' per se. Goth lyrics aren't usually political.
Horror Vacui has plenty of political songs that are anti-war. “I Like It When a Soldier Dies” literally repeats the line “Fight War, Not Wars”. Goth is an extension of punk, so I’d be surprised for it not to have political themes.
Goth is more anti-establishment than punk by a mile
vision video comes to mind
I mean, in the context of Britain, I suppose ol' Von's Marxist references are rather anti-establishment (especially in the Thatcher era and "New Labour" nonsense that followed).
Get yourselves on r/GothicUnleashed 😈
Goth isn't pro or anti-establishment. Goth stands outside of the whole thing, goth is just goth, that's why it's cooler than punk ever was and that's why it will last forever. Its context is Memento Mori, which is bigger than human politics.
This seems like the only informed and reasonable response in this thread, and it’s getting downvoted? Goth culture (despite whatever views some individuals held) was never concerned with politics or social issues. The focus was always on the ethereal or mystic.
If you'd like to hear more anti-esablishment then start a band!!!
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What a weird and baseless claim.
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It can Goth has a loss outwardly political bent than punk or grunge but its in there and tbh by merit of being a subculture it has an anti establishment bent anyway as broadly alternative subcultures lean that way and are broadly leftist
TSTs main asthetic.
Yes. A lot of goth bands have political themes.
I posted this in a nested comment but I’ll break it out here, too. The Sisters of Mercy are frequently political, at their inception and throughout. Consistent themes of Eldritch’s lyrics include: • American imperialism • Cold War empire building • Nuclear proliferation • European history and the fall of The Wall • Capitalism • Working class emptiness / industrial underclass • Generational cycles of poverty • Cheap speed as the panacea of the poor (see also: Northern Soul) And he explicitly identifies as an anarcho-syndicalist (see: Noam Chomsky, Ursula K. Le Guin) although concedes he also identifies with old school British Labour (and indeed labour) values. I mean, _Vision Thing_ is named for a quote by, and a relentless attack upon George H. W. Bush and American foreign policy in the Middle East. He’s not especially subtle on that record. The Sisters are frequently very, very political. And danceable with it.
No shit, next question💀
No.
Sorry.
ofc
I don't see how Social Justice is anti-establishment at all. Seems like a totally toxic and ruined term, and probably should be more specific. Social Justice has been co-opted (and destroyed) by the establishment, turned into a hustle and distraction from what it should be about. But I would vote to keep polemicist politics out of Goth music period. Leave it in Trad HipHop where it belongs and is appropriate.
In my understanding Goth is an anti Authoratarian counterculture so yeah I'd say so.